F-117 pilot (downed in 1999 over YU) for Air & Space Mag

[2RHPZ]

Tales of Misery and Survival

Vega Three-One. That was the mission and that was my call sign. It was the fourth night of the war -March 27,1999. The only game in town was our wave of F-117s, striking targets in the northern half of "FRY"—the Former Republic of Yugoslavia
I was single-ship, not talking and not squawking. I was post-strike in the most heavily defended area of Serbia, egressing the target area, high-subsonic and medium altitude, when I was hit by a surface-to-air missile. It was extremely violent. The jet was slammed into a left-rolling, negative-7-G tuck. Even though I was strapped in tight, my body was sliding out from underneath the lap belt and I was immobilized in the top of the shoulder straps, with my butt far out of the seat and my head and upper body forward, away from the seat back. My head (was) pinned down under the canopy.
It's about an 18-G kick in the butt when you pull those ejection handles; the preferred position is butt in the seat and your spine straight. I remember reaching for the ejection handles, and I remember thinking calmly, matter-of-factly, "You are in the worst possible position—if you even live through this you may have massive lumbar damage and a broken neck." I remember every fragment of the search and rescue, but not actually reaching the ejection handles and pulling on them. There's no doubt in my mind I had some help with that....
It seemed like it took minutes for the entire ejection sequence, when actually it was 1.4 seconds from pulling the handles to hanging under a fully inflated parachute. The seat was tumbling violently and I was again so calm, extremely calm. So many things went through my mind. I remember imagining standing next to the Serbian SAM operator, having a conversation with him and saying, "Really nice shot, but you're not getting me," Also, "Nuts!" - you know, in a light, humorous sort of way. And "I may not be able to call my daughter tomorrow on her birthday - isn't that an inconvenience?... Why am I still in the seat? Maybe I should pull the emergency release lever (which drops the seat and releases the parachute)." All of the sudden: BAM!! The seat kicked me out. I was deployed and hanging onto the parachute. I looked up and my first reaction was "Yes, perfect canopy!" My second reaction was - still, in a light, humorous way - "You got to be kidding me - an orange and white paneled parachute, glowing like a Chinese lantern in the nearly full - moon night!"
The descent I estimate at around eight minutes. I had a lot to do. It got very, very busy. I took inventory, got my survival equipment. I didn't think to check for injuries. I got out my survival radio and started making mayday calls. I had a basic survival radio - no over-the-horizon capability.
There were numerous airborne assets out there, yet I was not able to get good two-way com until Johnny on the Spot, "FRANK 36," a KC-135 refueling F-16s in Bosnia-Herzegovina, answered my calls. When I was satisfied I'd made good two-way com with a friendly, I tucked the radio away and got busy with other things.
The "hold-up" site I ended up choosing was in a shallow irrigation ditch separating two portions of a large, freshly plowed farm field. I was determined to deny the Serbians the significant exploitation and propaganda potential of having a captured F-117 pilot.
From pulling the handles to the time the helicopters pulled me out was just shy of eight hours. They took me to a base in Bosnia, loaded me on a C-130 to Aviano Air Base [in Italy]; then I was able to talk to my wife on a [secure] STU-III phone to ensure no compromise of anything related to the event, (including) my and my family's identities. It was a wonderful and emotional phone call, as you can imagine. My wife had been made aware of the situation. And after that I talked to my daughter and wished her happy birthday. She had just turned 10.

Air & Space Magazine

[Midav]

Interesting.

[Deuterium]

Another successful rescue by the Air Force and 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne)... Good job Serge. It only took 3 years to get you that Air Medal.

[APOCALYPSE]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT WAS HIS NAME?

[DLodge]

Daring Rescues Snatch Pilots from Jaws of Enemy
By Rudi Williams
American Forces Press Service

FORT BELVOIR, Va., Feb. 17, 2000 -- The night of May 2, 1999, was a helluva nightmare for F-16C Fighting Falcon pilot “Hammer 34.” He’d bailed out of his crippled jet fighter and was ****e in a pitch-black, thickly wooded area trying to conceal his whereabouts from Serbian troops.

"Suddenly, I heard footsteps in the ravine behind me," Hammer 34 told the audience here during DoD’s recent third annual personnel recovery conference, sponsored by the Defense POW-Missing Personnel Office. Hammer 34 and his rescuers told their stories on the condition of anonymity.

“Damn!” he recalled exclaiming to himself. “I can’t believe these guys have found me here after I’ve been running for an hour!”

“Hammer 34” had just finished a strike against Serb SAM missile sites near Novi Sad when an enemy missile exploded close to his jet and made his the second U.S. aircraft downed during Operation Allied Force. He punched out and watched the aircraft hit the ground in a ball of flames as he parachuted safely to the ground.

Hammer 34 reached for his 9 mm weapon to protect himself from “the thing” coming toward him, but he’d lost it when he ejected or while running for cover. Listening intently to the weight of the footsteps as they came closer, Hammer 34 speculated that a small animal or child was coming toward him at two o’clock in the morning.

He grabbed a big chunk of mud and threw it at “the thing.”

“To the best of my recollection, this ‘thing’ reared up and was about five feet tall with big red eyes and growled like nothing I’d never heard,” Hammer 34 said. “Jesse Owens couldn’t have kept up with me.

“I’ll swear to my dying day that it was a mountain lion or a jaguar in Serbia,” said Hammer 34, who was later plucked out of enemy territory in a daring pre-dawn rescue effort. When he told his fellow fighter pilots about the incident, they roared with laughter and said it had to have been a field mouse.

Hammer 34 and "Vega 31," the F-117 Nighthawk pilot who'd been the first flier shot down over Serbia, said biggest morale booster for pilots downed in enemy territory is knowing that somebody is going to rescue them. They emphasized that survivors -- pilots and crews -- are part of the search and rescue effort, too. They stressed the importance of survivors being well trained and prepared to evade, survive and assist the recovery force in extracting them from enemy territory.

Hammer 34 said he yelled only “Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!” over his radio before he ejected. That let search and rescue personnel know he was in trouble while preventing the Serbs from keying in on his location. Later, he said, he re-established communications and assured the search and rescue team he was in good condition. He told them he was searching for a better place to hole-up and would check back in about an hour.

Meanwhile, search and rescue personnel swung into action. The Combined Personnel Recovery Coordination Center redirected four airborne F-16s to support the recovery operation as the ground team simultaneously transmitted critical details of the situation to the pilots. Rescue helicopter pilots scrambled. The control center relayed a weather report for the area where the pilot was trapped behind enemy lines -- fairly decent with scattered clouds at 10,000 feet and a full moon.

When Hammer 34’s F-16 crashed, search and rescue helicopter crews were sitting miles away in Tuzla playing cards and listening to radio news about the air war.

“We heard over the radio that an aircraft had been downed and the wreckage had been confirmed in Serbia,” the lead helicopter pilot said. Everybody scrambled to two MH-53J Pave Low helicopters and a MH-60G Pave Hawk helicopter to rescue the pilot before the Serbs could capture him.

“We knew as we headed for the helicopters that we’d be pressing across the border without delay,” the lead pilot said. Shortly after lift off, someone shot two surface-to- air missiles at the rescue party. “We immediately reacted and the missiles missed the formation by about 200 feet.” Two more missiles also missed their target.

The Serbs were relentless in their efforts to shoot down the helicopters, but the rescuers regrouped and, just as they crossed into Serbia, the Pave Low pilots to the rear saw a missile coming up from behind. The rescuers evaded them, but the Serbs weren’t done.

As the helicopters entered a valley, Serb troops fired more missiles, which passed harmlessly through and beneath the formation.

After about seven minutes of searching for Hammer 34 at the original pick-up position, the pilots received new information. The airborne computers plotted the downed pilot’s new location about 17 miles away.

“As we progressed, we received significant small arms fire,” the lead helicopter pilot said. As his helicopter popped over a ridge, small-arms fire erupted from a two- story building. His gunner fired back and the attack stopped. Shortly afterward, the leader established communications with Hammer 34.

“He was steering us to his location based on the rotor noise,” the leader said. Hammer 34 told the audience he'd done that hoping the rotors he heard were from friendly helicopters.

The Pave Lows passed by him. When the Pave Hawk pilot saw Hammer 34's strobe light, he made an immediate turn to that location. The Pave Lows provided air cover as the Pave Hawk put down in a clearing. Two Air Force special tactics pararescuemen and a combat controller jumped out the aircraft.

Hammer 34 scampered into the open from a treeline and the armed combat controller ran past him to cover his back. One pararescueman covered the team with his weapon as the second prepared Hammer 34 for extraction. Gunfire erupted as the four men boarded the Pave Hawk.

"As I got on board, I laid on top of Hammer 34 in hopes to shield him from small arms fire, because I didn’t know where it was coming from,” the ground team leader recalled.

As the Pave Hawk zoomed for friendly territory, the two armored Pave Lows maneuvered into a sandwich formation to protect it. The rising sun greeted the three helicopters, and so did Serb heavy anti-aircraft artillery and small- arms fire, the speakers noted. They evaded the intense ground fire and, looking back as they safely crossed the border, saw Serb spotlights still searching the sky for them.

Stealth fighter pilot Vega 31 said he was flown to Aviano Air Base, Italy, after his rescue and the expressions on the faces of greeters are indelibly implanted in his memory. The sun hadn’t been up long when he landed, he said, and everybody had been up all night looking for him.

“They all shared a similar face: Faces combined with shock and deep concern, faces of uncertainty and disbelief, yet faces of discernible relief,” he said.

Each search and rescue is unique in considerations, dynamics and circumstances, Vega 31 noted, but they also all share certain qualities. “It's about patriotism, pride, gratitude, inspiration," he said. "The superb search and rescue effort is about the day-after-day, intense devotion to duty and dedication to duty of our military. They are inspiring stories that a very grateful country can be proud of.”

Vega 31 said his rescue wasn’t flawless. Some of the equipment and capabilities didn't work or weren't available. But, he said, the operation was still successful and for that he credited training, preparation, trust, faith, confidence and teamwork.

“It was also successful because of fierce determination and drive and unfaltering discipline and extraordinary situation awareness,” Vega 31 said.

DoD's annual conference heightens awareness of personnel recovery at the highest levels of the U.S. government, said Army Col. Mel Richmond, director of the Defense POW-Missing Personnel Office's operations directorate. Attendees exchange ideas and identify and resolve issues pertaining to DoD personnel recovery policies, he said.

[Ratamacue]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT WAS HIS NAME?
The f*ck?

[DLodge]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT WAS HIS NAME?
The f*ck?Please, can we all just ignore APOCALYPSE and try and keep this thread sane? Arguing with him is utterly pointless...he's just a troll trying to get attention.

[2RHPZ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT WAS HIS NAME?
The f*ck?Please, can we all just ignore APOCALYPSE and try and keep this thread sane? Arguing with him is utterly pointless...he's just a troll trying to get attention.

Thanks for your contribution and also for words on this u(lo)ser ... I warned him recently and due to his poisonous replies was forced twice to let to lock my topics. If it happen once more I will ask mods for ban.

Regards,
CAG 147

[Midav]

I am sure that I'm speaking for a lot of people, but I'll back you, CAG 147.

[APOCALYPSE]

The F-117 pilot is dead that transcript or what ever that is is 100000% FAKE he was shot by Serbian soilders when he was parashooting down to earth, his name is Capt. KEN "WIZ" Divelle" don't beleive me write to the USAF and ask if there was ever a Capt. Ken "Wiz" Develle, they'll tell you ya, then ask what's his status they'll tell you K.I.A.

[APOCALYPSE]

Read( your own American Magazines) "Jane's Defense & Foreign Affairs" April 20, 1999 issue Nato losses 38 aircrafts! you wanted nonSerb sourcesthere ya go rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[DLodge]

Check out this site for yet another description of the Vega 31 episode...
http://www.f-117a.com/Vega31/index.html

I also highly recommend the book "Chariots of the Damned." It's written by a Pave Low pilot (who flew in Allied Force BTW) and it has a great chapter describing the rescue from the perspective of the CSAR pilots who went in to pull the dude out.

[Midav]

I will try this one more time.

It's sad when someone becomes so disillusioned that they start making things up to keep their mind sated as to not face the reality of things.

Two manned aircraft were shot down. An F-117 and an F-16. Further on, a number of UAV's were shot down as well, but the UAV's we really don't care about.

All of the above mentioned had been shown on Serb TV and some is even displayed in a Serb museum. Now, logically speaking, if more had been downed, more would have been shown, don't you think? That would be logical as to how the Serbs were operating. They were being bombed; they were angry. They would have shown off more to raise their own morale and to prove they are fighting back.

They were, but just not very good.

As to the pilots, they were rescued. Otherwise, they also would have been shown on TV. Much like the three GI's captured by the Yugo's in the mid/late 90's, then let go. same goes for the Mirage 2000 shot down in 1996 followed by the French pilots being paraded on TV.

Here, none of that was shown, save for the report of an F-117, an F-16 and some UAV's shot down.

Now, before this turns into a "many NATO aircraft shot down and stealth sucks" debate, NATOdown is fictional.

Did the US lose an F-117? Yes it did. Remarkable that only one was lost, considering the fire the aircraft had gone through in Serbia and Iraq before that.

Stealth works. Read stealth:

Main Entry: stealth
****unciation: 'stelth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
1 a archaic : THEFT b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information -- Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

Merriam-Webster (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=stealth)

Doesn't mean it is invisible. Means it is just hard to detect. Cloaking is great in Star Trek, but we have yet to meet Romulans or Klingons ;)

However, deep in your heart, I am sure you know what I have said and what many more before me have said is true. Hope you come and face reality one day, kid.

[Sayeret]

Read( your own American Magazines) "Jane's Defense & Foreign Affairs" April 20, 1999 issue Nato losses 38 aircrafts! you wanted nonSerb sourcesthere ya go

What the ****? Thats the day the shootings at Columbine High School took place and last time I checked Janes didn't have their issues to the exact day.




Btw CAG147 interesting post, once again.

[APOCALYPSE]

Midav there is one way you can ONLY prove that I'm making this up read "JANES DEFENCE"/Foreign Affairs" and show us it doesn't say 38 airplanes but two warplanes and 36 UAV'V until then what "YOU!!" are saying is TOTALY made up, so do that first then come to this table and debate about what happend here there in Kosavo. and the reason Serbs didn't show any piolets is because the MAIN t.v. center in Serbia nato bombed, after Milosevic told NATO he will show all the downed planes and the captured nato piolets on NATO'S 50th aneversary, but if you still doubt read jane's and foreign affairs, oh heres an interesting one Yugoslav MiG 29 shoots down U.S. F-15E strike Eagle in a one on one dogfight-source B.B.C.-News March 27, 1999, oh and anther A-10 SHOT DOWN- source Macedonian t.v. "Sitel" May 02,1999, Greek news paper "Athinaiki" April 03,1999 U.S. Soilders killed, (guess by who?, those Serbian Soilders that can only pick on civilians, oh my! here's another non Serb source "Athinakik" (Greek news paper) news April 07,1999 no.599 page 9 Nato lost "MANY men" read the whole article it goes into much more detail than what I just wrote, waw! another source "Vradini" (Greek News Paper) March 24,1999-April 21,1999 "Nato lost 81 men ("commandos") read the whole article bud you'll learn alot about week little Srbs who can only pick on civilians. ;) like I said before this is just the TIP of the Ice burg NATO DID loss 388 warplanes.

[Flagg]

Midav there is one way you can ONLY prove that I'm making this up read "JANES DEFENCE"/Foreign Affairs" and show us it doesn't say 38 airplanes but two warplanes and 36 UAV'V until then what "YOU!!" are saying is TOTALY made up, so do that first then come to this table and debate about what happend here there in Kosavo. and the reason Serbs didn't show any piolets is because the MAIN t.v. center in Serbia nato bombed, after Milosevic told NATO he will show all the downed planes and the captured nato piolets on NATO'S 50th aneversary, but if you still doubt read jane's and foreign affairs, oh heres an interesting one Yugoslav MiG 29 shoots down U.S. F-15E strike Eagle in a one on one dogfight-source B.B.C.-News March 27, 1999, oh and anther A-10 SHOT DOWN- source Macedonian t.v. "Sitel" May 02,1999, Greek news paper "Athinaiki" April 03,1999 U.S. Soilders killed, (guess by who?, those Serbian Soilders that can only pick on civilians, oh my! here's another non Serb source "Athinakik" (Greek news paper) news April 07,1999 no.599 page 9 Nato lost "MANY men" read the whole article it goes into much more detail than what I just wrote, waw! another source "Vradini" (Greek News Paper) March 24,1999-April 21,1999 "Nato lost 81 men ("commandos") read the whole article bud you'll learn alot about week little Srbs who can only pick on civilians. like I said before this is just the TIP of the Ice burg NATO DID loss 388 warplanes.

It's hard to ban someone for be deluded or shooting horse tranqs


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT WAS HIS NAME?

But you can ban someone for being a sh!t stirrer

Zero tolerance...I say he gets the sack....bin him

[Lobo]

Keep on dreaming.

[Midav]

@ APOCALYPSE.. How old are you? I have a hard time believing that I am talking to an adult.

Please be honest. I won't make fun of you and you have my word. I am just curious.

[FozzieBear]

I will try this one more time.

It's sad when someone becomes so disillusioned that they start making things up to keep their mind sated as to not face the reality of things.

Two manned aircraft were shot down. An F-117 and an F-16. Further on, a number of UAV's were shot down as well, but the UAV's we really don't care about.

All of the above mentioned had been shown on Serb TV and some is even displayed in a Serb museum. Now, logically speaking, if more had been downed, more would have been shown, don't you think? That would be logical as to how the Serbs were operating. They were being bombed; they were angry. They would have shown off more to raise their own morale and to prove they are fighting back.

They were, but just not very good.

As to the pilots, they were rescued. Otherwise, they also would have been shown on TV. Much like the three GI's captured by the Yugo's in the mid/late 90's, then let go. same goes for the Mirage 2000 shot down in 1996 followed by the French pilots being paraded on TV.

Here, none of that was shown, save for the report of an F-117, an F-16 and some UAV's shot down.

Now, before this turns into a "many NATO aircraft shot down and stealth sucks" debate, NATOdown is fictional.

Did the US lose an F-117? Yes it did. Remarkable that only one was lost, considering the fire the aircraft had gone through in Serbia and Iraq before that.

Stealth works. Read stealth:

Main Entry: stealth
****unciation: 'stelth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
1 a archaic : THEFT b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information -- Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

Merriam-Webster (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=stealth)

Doesn't mean it is invisible. Means it is just hard to detect. Cloaking is great in Star Trek, but we have yet to meet Romulans or Klingons ;)

However, deep in your heart, I am sure you know what I have said and what many more before me have said is true. Hope you come and face reality one day, kid. i believe the f-117 has a radar return equal to that of a seagul

[Deuterium]

Although I can't comment on some aspects of the rescue I can tell you with complete certainty that the pilot was rescued. My unit was part of the team that did the rescue.

[Khabbi]

So who got the rescues ? think I missed that `? PJs ?

[Flagg]

Although I can't comment on some aspects of the rescue I can tell you with complete certainty that the pilot was rescued. My unit did the rescue.

Sweet....is there any official or unofficial protocol for aircrew on exactly how much beer one must purchase to express appreciation for their recovery? :lol:

[wyrm_142]

2nd'ing what Deut said.

I've personally talked with the lead PJ on the recovery, and the name on the jet is not the same as the dude that was picked up, I worked with the guy that had his name on said jet (he flew pork falcons in a prior life).

[Tom The Hunter]

Folk say that the F 117 was shot, bacause French and Greek NATO officers passed to serbians important informations.
One french officer was condemned for this.

[Kaos]

Folk say that the F 117 was shot, bacause French and Greek NATO officers passed to serbians important informations.
One french officer was condemned for this.
I don't think you're right.
It's true that a French Armée de terre officer was condemned because he shared some info with the JNA, but I don't believe that these info level was as low as an F-117 flightplan.
Every body agree that the F-117 was shotdown because after numerous mission without a change, the Serbs gathered enough information to track it. They shot it down with an SA-3

[Midav]

Nobody is doubting how or even if an F-117 was shot down. What everyone is doubting is the number of F-117's downed and just the general number of aircraft downed heh

Now, will you answer my question?

[Midav]

C'mon APOC. We know you're checking out the board. Just answer ;)

[APOCALYPSE]

My FACTS make it Impossible for ANYbody to even try and make fun of ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! woot

[gaz]

My FACTS make it Impossible for ANYbody to even try and make fun of ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! woot

Your facts aren't needed to make fun of you, the fact that you're a blithering idiot more than makes up for it.

And I want extra cool points for use of the word "blithering".

[DLodge]

My FACTS make it Impossible for ANYbody to even try and make fun of ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! woot
Facts huh? Maybe you could provide some sources?

[ibstolidude]

My FACTS make it Impossible for ANYbody to even try and make fun of ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! woot
really? Impossible - you are a dork and you eat poo.


Hey, I guess it is possible!!

[Midav]

I think we're just talking to a young kid here. He can't supply any facts and won't answer a simple question.

Ah well..

[APOCALYPSE]

Let me see now did DLodge gaz and you others just say show my sources you have prooven once AGAIN that you don't know what your saying I JUST GAVE YOU THE SOURCES on page one of this thred these are nonSerb sources and a AMERICAN SOURCE AND A EUROPEAN SOURCES, so if you all disagree with these then there nothing I can do to help you. p.s. you have to proove these sources are lieing and so your answer whould have to be Jane's is working with Serbs to discredit U.S.A. this is the only way out for the SOURCES I provided so go and read after you finish come back for anymore I have plenty others to share/shock/angery/humiliate you ALL with. IF you dare?????????

[Midav]

dp

[Midav]

Yup, he just proved what I said.

Have a good day all!

[DLodge]

Read( your own American Magazines) "Jane's Defense & Foreign Affairs" April 20, 1999 issue Nato losses 38 aircrafts! you wanted nonSerb sourcesthere ya go
Actually Jane's reports that a grand total of two manned Allied aircraft were downed. Don't believe me? Here's my source...
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/jdw990707_01_n.shtml

Or check out a collection of all Jane's reporting on the Kosovo crisis...
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/misc990301_01_n.shtml

Funny how they never mention anything about NATO losing 38 aircraft.

Midav there is one way you can ONLY prove that I'm making this up read "JANES DEFENCE"/Foreign Affairs" and show us it doesn't say 38 airplanes
Looks like I just did.


oh heres an interesting one Yugoslav MiG 29 shoots down U.S. F-15E strike Eagle in a one on one dogfight-source B.B.C.-News March 27, 1999
Really? Then why did the BBC run a story on March 28 entitled "Nato loses first plane?"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/306091.stm

Looks like you were wrong about that also.

Alright APOCALYPSE, you cited Jane's and turned out to be wrong. You cited the BBC and turned out to be wrong. I didn't even bother looking up the others, both because I don't consider a Macedonian TV website or random Greek newspapers to be reputable and because it seemed like a waste of time with your awful track record. If you want to provide sources, provide links, because you have zero credibility.


p.s. you have to proove these sources are lieing
Or the answer could be that you're lying...

[Deuterium]

Stop feeding the troll.

[Midav]

Kudos, DLodge! Admit I was too lazy to do the research and post it here :P

Deuterium-- Awwww ok :(

[bison3255]

hmm only 2 manned aircraft were shot down?
Why then are there pics of dead warthogs, dead harriers, dead apaches?

[FozzieBear]

in kosovo? i only ever heard about the f-117

[Midav]

hmm only 2 manned aircraft were shot down?
Why then are there pics of dead warthogs, dead harriers, dead apaches?

Probably because the Yugo and Iraq campaigns were two different conflicts.....

[DLodge]

hmm only 2 manned aircraft were shot down?
Why then are there pics of dead warthogs, dead harriers, dead apaches?
Where?

[bison3255]

hmm only 2 manned aircraft were shot down?
Why then are there pics of dead warthogs, dead harriers, dead apaches?
Where?
site is down, Ill post as soon as its up again (www.aeronautics.ru, venik made a point of photograpphing every US weapon so much as damaged over kosovo woot )

[DLodge]

site is down, Ill post as soon as its up again (www.aeronautics.ru, venik made a point of photograpphing every US weapon so much as damaged over kosovo woot )
Venik has been discredited countless times. He is nothing more than a Ukrainian music student living in the U.S. who has too much time on his hands. His ludicrous claims regarding NATO losses in Kosovo have been proven false.

I can guarantee you that the pictures he has posted of downed NATO aircraft, unless belonging to an F-117 or an F-16CG, are BS. He probably put up a drop tank or a piece of a UAV or something...

bison, don't believe this guy. He's a charlatan through and through.

BTW, you might want to do a search for "Venik," as he's been mentioned (and debunked) several times already on this board.

[Deuterium]

It would be impossible to hide the fact that 36 planes (the two we know) were shot down and that numbers of pilots were dead or captured. Only in Hollywood and in the Former Soviet Union could that many people disappear and the press keeps quiet. One thing is for sure in America, bad news just isn't kept quiet.

[Midav]

Yup.

I posted Ven's page about two weeks ago when we had a similar topic.
When looking at the pics, the downed F-16 had numerous pics taken of it from various angles, as did the F-117.

Drop tanks and UAV's were also featured. No F-15's. No Tornado's. No F/A-18's. No more F-117's, only the one. No B-2's etc...

Would have been too valuable propaganda for the Serbs to pass up.

[bison3255]

There was however a Harrier and a Warthog, even if his list of 40+ aircraft is full of ****. More than 2 were downed :roll:

Also charming pic of an apache.

[Midav]

There was however a Harrier and a Warthog, even if his list of 40+ aircraft is full of ****. More than 2 were downed :roll:

Also charming pic of an apache.

Opinion vs fact.

Two Apaches went down in Albania. If memory serves me correct, both were due to non hostile action.

Had two Blackhawks shot down over Somalia several years before, and no doubt a hostile combat loss of these Apaches would be reported.

I'm being as polite as possible when I ask this: Where is the evidence of all these aircraft shot down?

We don't care about what a newspaper said, or a friend said or what not.

Prove us wrong by showing us the pics. That would solve everything ;)

Agreed? See, all would be better then :hug:

[bison3255]

Will as soon as the site works again.

[bison3255]

here we go :lol:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117wreck22thumb.jpg
This is the F-117 which demonstrated so clearly the powers of stealth
http://www.aeronautics.ru/a/apache12thumb.jpg
This is an Apache
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/a10wreck02.jpg
This is an A-10 Warthog, and of course it is one big titanium bathtub, immune to everything.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/f16cgcrash01.jpg
This is an F-16
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/germandronedown01.jpg
This is a german CL-289 UAV
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/predatordown004thumb.jpg
This is a predator, demonstrating its high combat survivability
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/fueltank07.jpg
This is whats left of a Harrier
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/hunterdown02.jpg
This is an American Hunter UAV
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/f117004.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/f117002.jpg
"Mommy look, theres a stealth plane scattered throughout our backyard!"
http://www.aeronautics.ru/a/apache06.jpg
Apache is designed to fly very low and avoid detection, here it demonstrates.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/h/hunterdown01.jpg
Whats left of a hunter UAV!
http://www.aeronautics.ru/tomahawkdown.jpg
This is a tomahawk being shot down
http://www.aeronautics.ru/fueltank06.jpg
This shows the Harriers survivability.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/f16cj007.jpg
This used to be an F-16
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/yugotank01.jpg
NATO planes later bombed this menacing tank!


Some other NATO losses ::D:

According to a USAF source, an F-16 fighter was ditched in the Adriatic during the operation "Allied Force."

April 9, 2001 A NATO Puma helicopter - one of two such aircraft operated by the British KFOR units in Kosovo - has crashed at around 15:45 local time near Kacanik, 30 miles south of Pristina, Kosovo. The incident was confirmed by Maj. Axel Jandesek, a spokesman for the NATO-led Kosovo peacekeeping force.

April 11 A NATO aircraft (possibly a German Tornado) was shot down over northern Serbia at 00:12 a.m. local time (22:12 GMT) on 04-11-99,

Additional information regarding the June 7 B-52 shoot-down indicates that the aircraft was attacked by a total of four SAMs fired by two separate launchers. The first two launches (the type of the SAM system is not known, possibly a Kub) were unsuccessful: the first missile seemed to have developed a technical problem and went astray immediately following the launch; the second SAM was distracted by a radar decoy and missed the target by about 25 meters. A nearby Kub-M SAM unit observed the failed attack and launched two of its own missiles. The first Kub-M SAM scored a direct hit against the B-52 and the second SAM launched by the Kub-M was triggered by its proximity fuse when it was in the kill distance of the B-52.

May 28, 2000 A British "Phoenix" UAV crashed in Kosovo three miles into the buffer zone. The aircraft was quickly picked up by Yugoslav forces, which suggests that it might have been shot down.

According to eyewitness reports, at least three NATO aircraft, originally reported to have been shot down by Praga or M-55 anti-aircraft guns, in fact have been shot down by the new 2S6 Tunguska AAA-SAM systems supplied by Russia. This was reported by Yugoslav air defense officers.

[bison3255]

most of the losses listed are bull**** but I was too lazy to cut em out from the post

[FozzieBear]

quite a few of em just look like bits of metal to me no way of seeing if they are what they say they are :P the f-117 looks real as does the apache not sure about the rest :P

[Midav]

I see one manned F-117 and F-16 shot.

The Apaches were non combat loses in Albania, or can you explain the US troops surrounding them? Even at Ven's page is states "Apache that crashed in Albania".

See Gallery 6 (http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/)

The pics of the Harrier fuel tanks are just that. Fuel tanks.

Gallery 9 (http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/)

The rest are either close up shots of the already shot down F-16, fuel drop tanks, or UAV's.

Come on Apoc, even you can't be that naive. rofl

[Ichhabe]

Eeeeh? Question: Do these guys get a hard on to see US and British equipment damaged and destroyed, or is is just sore losers that cant and wont accept that they got their asses handed to them and they have lost the war and all other wars to come forever? Eh?

[Midav]

I wonder myself.

Reminds me of the insurgents in Iraq. Even if they got their behinds handed to them on a silver platter, they see a burning vehicle, dancing starts up and they declare "victory".

What happenes when you don't set your goals very high.

"We lost 50 of our fellow fighters today, but got one American humvee. Victory!!"

As said, just a comparison ;)

[bison3255]

Well, the US media bitches a lot mroe about 1 dead humvee than the Iraqi public bitches about 50 dead fighters!

[Kaos]

Well, the most difficult thing for NATO was to acknowledge the F-117 loss. It was done (Difficult to hide, as there was some evidences). From then on, sure it was not a very big prob to tell the press that some other aircraft didn't make it back to their base in the following days till the end of the air campaign. Apart the F-16 and the F-117, no other strict evidences. I think that there were no other losses, some near miss maybe (An A-10 that landed at Sarajevo for exemple), but no more.
What is certain, is that the UAVs from all country contributing to the air war suffered heavy losses, and also the tomahawks. Most of these losses where acknoledged, and some wrecks were still present till 2000/2001.

[Ichhabe]

Kaos said:


Well, the most difficult thing for NATO was to acknowledge the F-117 loss.

NEWSFLASH: It was a war going on. You don't announce your losses to the enemy. Now, do you?


Like Germany had send bulletins over to the Russians: Still no winter clothing. What do we do?

Tiger tank or Paper tiger tank. Will it ever work?

Yet a divison slaughtered in the outskirts of Stalingrad.

No, you keep your mouth shut. That is what you do, and deny everything.

[Midav]

Well, the US media bitches a lot mroe about 1 dead humvee than the Iraqi public bitches about 50 dead fighters!

Dead humvee? Interesting. Anyhow, you miss the point I made.

So, we all agree that only two manned aircraft were shot down during the 1999 Kosovo campaign and end this silly discussion?

Until any realistic evidence comes forward, the case is closed for all that I am concerned.

Unlike someone here, I don't have to prove something to myself to the point of disillusionment.

[bison3255]

4 manned aircraft downed, many others damaged or crashed.

[DLodge]

4 manned aircraft downed, many others damaged or crashed.Based on what evidence? I checked the site, he's got great pics of the F-117 and the F-16CG that were downed. These were confirmed by NATO. But that only makes two.

Where are the other 2? One set of the pics you posted shows the drop tank of a Harrier, which, surprise, was meant to be dropped in flight. It provides no proof whatsoever that the airplane was shot down.

The other set shows the #2 engine cowling of an A-10. Considering A-10 #967 had its engine cowling blown off before making it safely home to base, it seems fairly obvious that the aircraft wasn't shot down. In fact that very A-10 is still flying today.

So...you promised to show us pictures of downed aircraft? Well, besides the F-117 and F-16 you have shown us a disposeable fuel tank and a piece of the engine of a plane that landed safely and was restored to flying condition. Chalk up another great job for Venik!

[DLodge]

BTW, nice pics of the damaged A-10...

http://www.geocities.com/crewchiefsmakeithappen/1967d.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/crewchiefsmakeithappen/1967c.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/crewchiefsmakeithappen/1967a.jpg

And the same plane after repairs...

http://www.geocities.com/crewchiefsmakeithappen/1967h.jpg

[Kaos]

Kaos said:


Well, the most difficult thing for NATO was to acknowledge the F-117 loss.

NEWSFLASH: It was a war going on. You don't announce your losses to the enemy. Now, do you?


Most of these assessments were made AFTER the war.
I'm not talking about what was said during the air campaign.

[UoUo]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/hunterdown11.jpg

Holon, Israel. p-)