What if .... Poland had F-16 squadron in 1939

[shadowsrider]

While having a bath and reading some books I started wondering about some SF scenario.
What if PL had a squadron of F-16 in 1939 of lets say 16 planes. Will it change the war? How to use such weapon? In attempt to kill Hitler? But how to find his location?
To demonstrate power and bomb Berlin or maybe just to intercept Luftwaffe planes?

Not an easy issue: airfield would be very vulnerable and propably not so many missions could be conducted. How to use such power wisely?

I know this is stupid but this is nice "what if" experiment :)

[SoSo]

The German and Soviet air forces would be destroyed in very short order. Some German warplanes might flee, seeking internment in Slovakia, and some of the Soviet aviators as well, in the Baltic countries or Romania, once it became clear that trying to engage the Polish jets was hopeless. Hitler and Stalin would probably try to escape to the countryside, or take refuge in whatever underground facilities were available in 1939. Hopefully, the Polish F-16s would find both dictators wherever they tried to hide, and dispatch them to Hell with JDAMs.
Ukraine might try to secede from the USSR, and formerly pro-German Eastern European states would likely jump ship too, and try to kiss up to the new superpower. Pilsudski's dream of a Polish-led Miedzymorze or Between the Seas League might become a reality.
Coming up with the spare parts, fuel, infrastructure and airfields capable of supporting the F-16s would be a huge problem, however.

[mr_ffox]

I wish Poland had 150 F-16 up to 2020 :) never happend :(

[Meatwad]

The German and Soviet air forces would be destroyed. Hitler and Stalin would try to flee to the countryside, or take refuge in whatever underground facilities were available in 1939. Hopefully, the Polish F-16s would find both dictators wherever they tried to hide, and blast them down to Hell with JDAMs.
Pilsudski's dream of a Polish-led Miedzymorze or Between the Seas League might become a reality.
Spare parts, fuel, infrastructure and airfields capable of supporting the F-16s would be a huge problem, however.

Your talking about spare parts and fuel being the problem? How is that even an issue when the question itself is comparable to Jesus riding a segway across the desert 2000 years ago.

Heres a better question, what if Canada had a time machine and gave the time machine secrets to the dinosaurs?

[shadowsrider]

I think that not only Poland would not become the superpower but I also think 16 F-16s would not change the war significantly.
Finally problems with fuel, spare parts would occur or the airfield would be sized or bombed. Being on German place in such situation I would send commandos/paratroopers to eliminate this airfield. So the wise use of them would be an issue. Any ideas?

To eliminate the dictators you need to locate them first. It is not that easy.

[Alfacentori]

16 F-16s would have quickly run out of ordinance or been overwhelmed and destroyed on the ground by the vastly more numerous Luftwaffe. The Germans would have then captured the wrecks, mass produced them by 1943 and taken over the world.

Alfa

[sp2c]

they'd have a hard time getting sidewinders

[shadowsrider]

Noone would be able to reproduce this thing. Maybe Germans could build their Me262 faster analysing the engine but for sure noone would be able to copy such machine at that time. They would spend long time wondering what are those black things with many metal legs (microprocessors)

[SoSo]

I think you'd want to get as much bang out of the jets as you could, before they became inoperable. Without proper modern airfields I don't know how many sorties you could even expect to fly. Poland was so hopelessly outclassed and outnumbered in 1939 that they would still have suffered in the war, but those jets would be able to do a tremendous amount of damage in the time they were able to be flown. An F-16 would have shredded any fighter plane available in 1939, with its opponents being unable to inflict any damage; this would be devastating to enemy morale. I imagine whole squadrons of Bf109s would have scattered and fled for their lives, at the sight of a single Polish jet. And although the F-16s would be operable for a short time only, and would be subject to other limitations, Poland's enemies wouldn't be aware of this for some time. The initial blow of an aerial attack by these advanced planes would be so shattering that Polish forces could take advantage of the resultant chaos. And it's doubtful that neighboring countries, seeing the dictatorships in disarray due to the attack, wouldn't opportunistically jump in on Poland's side, to rid themselves of a problem while they had the best chance to do so.



Noone would be able to reproduce this thing.


You're right, no one in 1939 would be capable of reverse engineering this technology. But I think the German engineers would have tried anyway, and they probably would have come closer to success than any other people in the world could have done.

[Alfacentori]

Noone would be able to reproduce this thing. Maybe Germans could build their Me262 faster analysing the engine but for sure noone would be able to copy such machine at that time. They would spend long time wondering what are those black things with many metal legs (microprocessors)

You doubt ze Germans ingenuity! ;)


Alfa

[Niall]

You seriously sat in the bath and thought of this? And you didn't slap yourself?

What if the Latvian air force of 1939 had warp engines and the space station Deep Space Nine but the Germans had the Death Star who would win!!!1!!1

[AROUETLJ]

The real question is: When were BDPs invented?

[shadowsrider]

You seriously sat in the bath and thought of this? And you didn't slap yourself?

What if the Latvian air force of 1939 had warp engines and the space station Deep Space Nine but the Germans had the Death Star who would win!!!1!!1

I used to write SF when I was a teenager so I very often think about hypothetical situations like what would I do if I appear in ancient Rome etc :)

[my name again]

The real question is: When were BDPs invented?

Never ! Blasphemy! God made them!

[SoSo]

A Latvian air force DS9, sent back to 1939? Unthinkable! But how about some Latvian JAS 39 Gripens? It'll probably be their first fighter, since 1940, once they get around to aquiring fighters.
Incidently, the Latvian air force, forseeing trouble, expressed interest in purchasing some Spitfires before 1940, but the British wouldn't sell them; they said they needed all they had for the RAF. But imagine how strange those Spits would have looked, with swastikas on their wings!

[TheKiwi]

See, now there is a much better "what-if". What if the Polish Air Force had bought (say) 300 Spitfire Mk1's 12 months before the start of the war?

[shadowsrider]

Yeah it is even not so "what if".
Poland ordered 100 Fairey Battles, a squadron of Hurricanes a single Spitfire for tests and 150 Morane Saulniers and even paid for those planes.
The transport of Hurricanes was already loaded on a ship and going to Poland but the war breakout unabled the use of them.

At least a few weeks would be needed for training.

As for Fairey Battles they were the same class as widely used Karas light bombers with suffered heavy losses and they would not change situation.
But 150 MS 406s in hands of very well trained Polish pilots could change slightly the situation. At least airspace over Warsaw would be protected - PZL 11s were doing this job quite efficiently for first few days but Saulniers could protect this airspace for at least 2 weeks and also including airspace over some key battlefields. For instance Battle of Bzura could have different outcome - Polish armies perhaps would escape and not be decimated by Luftwaffe so perhaps those airplanes would prolong the campaign by one or 2 weeks.

[hastati]

There is Polish book called "www.1939.com.pl" about Polish Army unit(year 2007, few PT-91, 4 ZSU-23-4, Rosomaks, few Mi-24, BRDM-2, 4 BM-21, few howitzers, all with tonnes of ammunition, newest recon/night-vision systems etc.) moved in time to 1st September 1939 :D.

[SniperLane]

and got humiliated by the wermacht

sry couldnt resist smacking your enthusiasm

[Dercius]

It would have changed nothing, they would run out of ordinance and fuel pretty soon, and without manteinance crew they would end up grounded pretty soon aswell. So no real impact apart from a weird situation. The only thing that could make a dramatic change would be an aircraft able to supercruise while hovering and clearly F16 are not able to ;)

Different thing would be if an aeronautical enginer from today would have ended up in Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany in 1936 and willing to cooperate with "Il Duce" or Hitler.

[Nepeccel]

Well it would have done nothing. Poland's army would have still been destroyed and Poland would still have lost.

What if the Spanish Armada had aircraft carriers in 1588? What if the British had Maxim guns in the war of Independance? What if the Napoleon had capable wizardry, ala Gandalf, in the battle of Waterloo? They are all silly questions just like your one :)

[TheKiwi]

I think more importantly, we can all be grateful that the Polish army didn't have BDP and PKM, or we would all be speaking Polish right now.

[datalink16]

make it 100 F-16s with unlimited fuel, spare parts, xray, slams, jdams, LGBs, mavericks, jassm ....That could made a change.

[JRT]

But imagine how strange those Spits would have looked, with swastikas on their wings!

Well, there was a small number of Hurricanes with swastikas as well as Gloster Gauntlets and Bristol Bulldogs. It was actually as early as 1927 when Gloster Gamecocks got their swastikas painted. All of them blue, not black of course. Spitfires would have fit in marvelously.

[sgt_G]

this is like what if the Nimitz went back to 1941 or if the Confederates had AK-47's

oh wait it's been done

[Rictor]

Actually, it could change the outcome of the war quite significantly. How? Bargaining power!

Fly these F-16s to England and America, or to whichever country (Japan?) seems willing to cut a deal. Offer them the technology is exchange for an immediate and unqualified defense of Poland. I think that any nation which realized the potential of such advanced technology would spare no cost (short term) to gain the huge advantage (long term). Of course Hitler and Stalin could not be trusted, but the Japanese, for example, had no particular beef with Poland. They might have been persuaded to ditch their pact with Germany if they thought that they could become a military superpower within 5-10 years by reverse-engineering the F-16. Same is true of the UK, France, America, Spain etc.

[khalifah]

Ive always wonderd what would have been the case IF Alexander had FAL's on hand as he marched to India...

[Rictor]

Ive always wonderd what would have been the case IF Alexander had FAL's on hand as he marched to India...

Read "Time's Eye" by Arthur C. Clarke and you will find out. Kind of a silly book, but enjoyable nonetheless. Without spoiling anything, a huge battle royale takes place beween Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great, along with Colonial-era British troops and some modern tech.

[Cloud in the Wind]

I mean, at the same time, the SciFi What If premiss accepted, the real question is who would Germany had attacked INSTEAD OF Poland. Germany was not in any real threat by Poland. They attacked there because it would be a decisive victory and would allow rapid consolidation of local/international political/economic power. And if they DID have a weapon system like the F-16, generals like what Germany had at the time certainly would have known that Blitz warfare would need to be VASTLY faster in order to negate the affects of that weapon.

So what, paratrooper assult on the airfield followed by the blitz as a rescue force a la Market Garden? Didn't work out great for us IIRC

[Ordie]

I used to write SF when I was a teenager so I very often think about hypothetical situations like what would I do if I appear in ancient Rome etc :)

Go read "The Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove.

It's a what if the Confederates had AK-47 story.

[Mordoror]

16 F16 (or any modern aircraft Mig29, Mirage or Gripen) ?
hum provided that the normal disponibility is around 80 to 90 % it will remain only 14 aircrafts pehaps lower because 90% is a number when the aircrafts are given a mass of available spare parts and a lot of mechs attention
just enough to defend Warsaw and not a lot more

moreover they will be fighting propelled aircrafts who were slow and hence not easy targets for too quick machines (just check the lower knot limit of an F16 before it goes down alone)
i don't even know if sidewinders or amram could acquire targets like wooden aircrafts on radar easily or even by IR given the low exhaust

and once the sidewinder and other missiles emptied they would have being useless junk in the air (difficult to shoot down more maneuvrables aircrafts due to lower speed) and sitting ducks on the ground

the same will go with mud missions although it could have been more usefull (with a relatively small amount of clusters bombs, JSOW and such you can disable a pretty huge amount of vehicles)
but once emptied the ordnances, straffing with the 20 mm will be the only remaining solution .... not more efficient than WWII aircrafts

and i am not talking about the training of the pilots and ground crew to operate and maintain such birds

i think it would have only slowed the onslaught in a tiny part of the front, nothing more

[TheGaffer]

So far the Final Countdown which taught me F-14's are more maneuverable than Mitsubishi Zero's..

[Ordie]

So far the Final Countdown which taught me F-14's are more maneuverable than Mitsubishi Zero's..

Great Aviation Ordnance scene.

[Mordoror]

So far the Final Countdown which taught me F-14's are more maneuverable than Mitsubishi Zero's..and after that scene you still believe Hollywood ? p-)

[AkerWalker]

Any modern jet can knock down any ww 2 plane just with the exhaust.

[SoSo]

Well, there was a small number of Hurricanes with swastikas as well as Gloster Gauntlets and Bristol Bulldogs. It was actually as early as 1927 when Gloster Gamecocks got their swastikas painted. All of them blue, not black of course. Spitfires would have fit in marvelously.

It's strange, isn't it, how Finland marked its planes with blue swastikas, and Latvia with red? Of course, at that time no one knew about the Holocaust, and so the emblem didn't carry the stigma it has today.
It's generally known that Gloster Gladiators flew for the Axis as well as the Allies. Finland had some, as did Iraq. Some of the Latvian and Lithuanian Gladiators ended up in German service. The Gladiator is one of my favorite World War II aircraft.

[Antey]

Yeah, I also think that Marcin Ciszewski had great idea (author of www.1939.com.pl, www.1944.waw.pl, MAJOR - for non-poles, kind of Polish Final Countdown scenario http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/ but in ours future guys take action ).

In fact, there wouldn't be much difference - spare parts run out, armament runs out and we're again fvcked up big time.
True, at greater cost to German air force and that's all.

----

I'd rather take 3-4 F-16s with recon only capability and some 10k field radios of different types and wagon of office equipment: laptops with Matlab, scanners and printers (Enigma crunching could have got better).... and blueprints, lot's of blueprints: for simplified RPGs and Malyutka, for simple sabot rounds, for 5.7 round, recepies for medicial stuff that could have been manufactured then, better transistors...forumlas for better solid rocket fuel...

Anyway, discussion about - in given constraints - what would one take into the past if one had a chance...could have some fun :)

[hastati]

... RPG-7, and GROM manpads ;).

[Kilgor]

And Poland still gets divided in two.

Simply too much to shoot down facing the two armies.

[Wojtop]

IGermany was not in any real threat by Poland.

You are mistaken here. Polish army was quite competent and numbered over a milion of well trained and pretty well equiped soldiers with most of high rank officers having previous combat experience. Hell, they've beaten badly the Soviet Union 20 years earlier, it means something. It was lacking in terms of expensive, advanced weapons - airpower, armour, artillery and communication but was still easily capable of dealing quickly with a force of 20-30 regular Wehrmaht infantry divisions.

So there was a danger - if Germany engaged the bulk of its force somewhere else (France comes to mind) leaving only reserve divisions in the east Poland could attack from behind and take Berlin in no time. Hitler took on Poland before France for a reason.

[G-AWZT]

What if Hitler COULD have illustrated people in his townscapes and he WAS accepted into art school in Vienna?

[Mordoror]

Any modern jet can knock down any ww 2 plane just with the exhaust.

hum
i will not try it too often
if you don't succeed to knock down the ennemy's plane (some of the WWII were pretty stable concepts that sustained very well strong turbulences) it will be in your six and close enough to transform you in a sieve with 6 MG or 2x20 mm + 2 MG or any combination of it
and a modern airplane frame (fighters i mean like the F16) is less able to sustain extended damages than a WWII plane with purely hydraulic controls

[SoSo]

I'd love to read that book by Ciszewski, if I can ever find an English translation. It sounds very entertaining. So what if time travel is impossible? It's just a story, for people who have imagination and can think creatively, which not everyone can do. Suspending disbelief and embracing such ideas requires a certain flexibility; obviously, science fiction and alternative history aren't for conventional thinkers. But personally, I thought Turtledove's "Guns of the South" was the best.

[sgt_G]

I think Poland would do better with A-10's really :D

[Russianlynxy]

what kind of a thread is this?

ok... what if Poland had created the first nuke?