Russia during WWI: A Central Power instead of Entente

[Russianlynxy]

Just an interesting historical question I would like to open up at topic on.

As many of you know the Russian Empire and Germany (Prussia, Germanic states, and later Unified Germany) have shared quite a rich common history with one another. This is expressed in many examples, a large portion of culture which was borrowed by the Russian Empire from Germany, common conquests and partitions of Eastern Europe, and of course one of the more prominent figures to play in Russian Imperial history - Catherine the Great, who was herself, a German princess and later Empress of all the Russias.

So how it came to be, that two great European powers with much relation were pitted against one another in two of the bloodiest wars in human history during the 20th century...

Without over-analyzing the events which led prior to WWI, could it have been that Realpolitik prevailed over Pan-Slavism and Pan-Germanism? Could it have been that instead of combining forces with it's former natural enemies (France, and particularly the British Empire) - The Russian Empire would have fought alongside the Central Powers during WWI instead of the Entente? Could it have been possible that Germany would chose a stronger force within the Russian Empire, rather than blindly becoming the protectorate of the Austro-Hungarian Empire with its own ambitions in the Balkans. Could Russia have abandoned its obsession with Balkan Slavs in the name of a Greater Europe?

There are all theoretical questions I would be interested in seeing some opinions on.

Other interesting related to the subject matter topics:
Could the Russian Empire combined with the German Empire and Austo-Hungarian Empire hold a victory against the Western Allies?
If so, as a result of this the events which would lead up to WWII would not occur, would WWII be avoided in its entirety?
Would any Eastern European countries we know today exist in case of Russian/German success in Europe? (probably not, I think)

Obviously I'm a little biased on this topic (yes I would have liked to see this - it would have saved the Russian Empire, most likely averted a second world war, at least in the form that it was, and stopped the rise of Communism in Europe) but I will avoid elaborating into too much detail yet, wanna see some opinions.

Who knows... maybe the primary languages in Europe would have been Russian and German, not English...:D

[Hast2]

You're friend with someone as long as your interests are mutual. Or at least they don't cross each other. Our world is very simple. Two powers can't co-exist because both want to expand. Fortunately nowadays all great powers have, or can afford and still have profitable economies, what they want - resources, so there's no point in major military expansion. We are safe for now. But economical expansion could be also dangerous, as it brings centrism and virtually an occupation. So Russia and Germany united in some strong alliance, would be a good thing ? As was pointed out, probably all "lesser" nations in Europe would disappear, and let's presume this alliance will win a war against "The West". Expansion will continue and will end up in some over-sized empire with no real enemy.... A well familiar pattern. I think it's for the best if we have few different powers who contr-balance each other. Economically, culturally... Militarily.

[TheKiwi]

Hmm, the problem with speculating about such a major change in the European pre-war political scene is to trying to work though all the consequences. For example, it is unlikely that the Austria-Hungarian empire with all of it's Slav's would have been happy about such an alliance with the pro-Slav Russians. Likewise, how does this fit with the British obsession of balancing power in Europe (and keeping Russia out of India). In all likelihood, you are not just adding Imperial Russia to the Central Powers, you are talking an entirely new rethinking of the alliance system. UK, France and Austria-Hungary vs. Imperial Germany and Russia (and possibly Italy too what with their dislike of A-H) seems very possible. The strategic problems facing the German High Command of knocking out France before Russia can mobilise becomes one of France/Austria-Hungary knocking out Germany before Russian mobilisation instead. A swift occupation of the Rhineland would become highly desirable. Not the easiest of tasks though, the German mobilisation system was regarded as excellent and swift.

Turkey too is unlikely to look favourably upon anything that strengthens Russia. Where will they sit? Neutral but biased? Bulgaria was pretty pro German, but also had a lot of Slavic sympathy for Russia. That makes them a double threat to Turkey.

[Russian_dude]

Russian has traditionally been pretty griendly with Germany. However Germany's expansionist plans in Europe were always against Russian interests.

[JCR]

Russian has traditionally been pretty griendly with Germany. However Germany's expansionist plans in Europe were always against Russian interests.

What expansionist policies?
Do you confuse WW1 with WW2?
If Germany had any expansionist plans it was in Africa, not to the east. Russia had problems with Austria, not with Germany.
This "what if" sounds fascinating but is actually very short:
If Russia had been a central power, WW1 would not have happened.

[Gammelpreusse]

Agreed with JCR. A main motivator for Germany to enter the war was a feeling of encirclement of threats from all directions. Without Russia included into these agreements a lot of pressure would have been taken from the country, the very reason for the preemptive strike on France, fear of a prolonged two front war, gone. And it is doubtful France were to declare war itself on Germany, which in return means no ocupation of Belgium, in return giving the UK no reason to act.

But even if Germany and Russia had an alliance, how would Russia have acted in the face of the ultimatum at Serbia? Panslawism as some kind of supranationalism was strong at that time. (is it still today, btw?)

[Sada]

WWI was "mechanically" unavoidable since there were those entangled and hellish secret treaties that oblied some countries and didn´t let to calculate the risks properly to probable adversaries.
edit, not to mention the big weapons race in the post 1870 years.

[Proudgrandson]

Well Otto Von Bismark always did his best to retain good relations with Russia. Kaiser Wilhelm sacked him and things went downhill rapidly.

'Following his dismissal of Bismarck, Wilhelm and his new chancellor Caprivi became aware of the existence of the secret Reinsurance Treaty with the Russian Empire, which Bismarck had concluded in 1887. Wilhelm's refusal to renew this agreement which guaranteed Russian neutrality in the event of an attack by France was seen by many historians as the worst offense committed by Wilhelm in terms of foreign policy. In reality, the decision to allow the lapse of the treaty was largely the responsibility of Caprivi, though Wilhelm supported his chancellor's actions. It is important not to overestimate the influence of the Emperor in matters of foreign policy after the dismissal of Bismarck, but it is certain that his erratic meddling contributed to the general lack of coherence and consistency in the policy of the German Empire toward other powers.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinsurance_Treaty

[smile]

1234567890

[smile]

Hello, just few remarks

What expansionist policies?

Platz an der Sonne from Bernhard von Bulow with his: We do not want to place anyone into the shadow, but we also claim our place in the sun. It was the part of the polical practise during Kruger Telegram era.
Since nearly every small countries was taken by imperealistic states. The only way free alnd was in the south. (For some idiots later, in the east, but this is other story).
And with blank cheque from Wilhelm 2 after the Assasination of Franz Ferdinand Germany voluntary and by itself come into the war. Here you can see the interest of the German Politicians during this time. They could get some new land and just wait for this trigger.

If Germany had any expansionist plans it was in Africa, not to the east. Russia had problems with Austria, not with Germany.

True, but only before the first WW. The Central Power was Austria-Hungary Monarchy with their hegemony in Europe.

If Russia had been a central power, WW1 would not have happened.

True, balance of power. But not at this time and after such attitude from all counties.


Well Otto Von Bismark always did his best to retain good relations with Russia. Kaiser Wilhelm sacked him and things went downhill rapidly.

Bismark was old guy with lot of experiance at this time. Kaiser and Kanzler had complete different view on things. Bismark had very complex alliance policy at this time with secret treaties and so on. Hotheads like the new Kanzler couldnt even see such great balance.

[JCR]

Russia had no reason to feel threatened by anything Germany did before WW1, except for the support for austria.
And this support was defensive in nature, as it was Austria that was threatened by panslavism.
There were NO territorial claims or even intentions towards annexing ANYTHING remotely connected with the russian sphere of interest, except maybe for China.
"Platz an der Sonne" didn't mean territory in Europe, it meant colonies, China and worldwide trade and the naval expansion to back all this up by force.
Russia didn't enter the colonial game. I'm not sure Russia ever had a colony in Africa and their expansionism in the east was curbed after 1904.
There was no conflict of interest anywhere on the globe between the tsar and the kaiser, except maybe China, if germany had increased influence there.
In contrary, pan-slavism threatened unrest in german-polish areas, so one might say russian expansionism threatened germany.
Before WW1, no one in Germany had any serious interests in acquiring more eastern territory which was usually seen as a wasteland anyway.

[gustav]

Russia didn't enter the colonial game. I'm not sure Russia ever had a colony in Africa and their expansionism in the east was curbed after 1904.

Mandchuria, Central Asia, Caucasus, Afghanistan, Iran, etc......If this is not colonial imperialism...


In contrary, pan-slavism threatened unrest in german-polish areas, so one might say russian expansionism threatened germany.
Before WW1, no one in Germany had any serious interests in acquiring more eastern territory which was usually seen as a wasteland anyway.

Yep you fought for Austria-Hungary.

[Sydor Ukie]

FALSE! There were Russian attempts to establish a presence in Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagallo

Russia had very grand plans to say the least, conquer everything to the Adriatic (Pan-Slavism), reclaim Constantinople, conquer Iran and Arabia (to link up with Somalia), et al. Russians were always big war mongers I suppose and later they would claim the entire world through the casus belli of "worker's revolution"

[Ataman]

Beware of Ukrainian Canadians. If it comes to Russia they know best!


Mandchuria, Central Asia, Caucasus, Afghanistan, Iran, etc......If this is not colonial imperialism...

Isn't that ordinary expansionism?

Btw, they reached California:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_America