Ukraine plans to withdraw troops from Iraq

[OB Kenobi]

(Excerpts)

Ukraine said Thursday it is in negotiations with the United States and Poland to reduce and eventually withdraw its troops from Iraq, becoming the latest country to consider abandoning the risky military mission.

Word of the planned Ukrainian withdrawal came on a day of relative calm in Iraq, following a 24-hour period in which a bombing killed 70 people in the city of Baqouba, three coalition soldiers — two of them U.S. Marines — and dozens of Iraqis died in fighting and terror attacks.

Ukraine opposed the U.S.-led war, but sent troops in part to improve relations with the United States amid accusations that President Leonid Kuchma approved the sale of radar systems to Saddam Hussein.

Ukraine has 1,650 Ukrainian troops serving in the Polish-led force patrolling southern Iraq, making up the fourth-largest, non-U.S. contingent. The soldiers’ mandate was up for renewal in August, and Kuchma had previously suggested that they would remain.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5455104/

[Liquid]

Even the most intense fan part of Bush peanut gallery would notice things are crumbling in Iraq.5 countries already withdrew,Ukraine is backing out and there are even rumours of Indonesia and Maroc refusal to form a muslim force in Iraq.

It`s also a tad sad to call a day that just started and already 2 Marines were killed in Al-Anbar,intense fighting going on in Fallujah a "relative day of calm"

[seruriermarshal]

We will have more new Iraq troops , there are their country , at last they will fight for it .

[Liquid]

Who do you mean by that.The Iraqi security forces?Of which a US military report outlines 30% are geting layed off because of curruption,40% are absent and an unknown number of policemans refuse to fight the Iraqi insurgents.

If you mean the Iraqi insurgents,indeed it`s their country and they prooved they will fight for it until the bitter or the glorious end.

Secondly from where will you have more troops.Allawi is indeed desperate to get him as the security situation is desastrous.But who will give them?
Russia?No
Germany?No
France?No
Moroco and Indonesia-rumours say they will refuse the offer because of the security situation
Ukraine-plans to retreat
Spain-already retreated

The choices are geting slimer every month.The only country that would seem comited is S Korea an announcement that created furours among the population and violent demonstrations.

[seruriermarshal]

Who do you mean by that.The Iraqi security forces?Of which a US military report outlines 30% are geting layed off because of curruption,40% are absent and an unknown number of policemans refuse to fight the Iraqi insurgents.

If you mean the Iraqi insurgents,indeed it`s their country and they prooved they will fight for it until the bitter or the glorious end.

Secondly from where will you have more troops.Allawi is indeed desperate to get him as the security situation is desastrous.But who will give them?
Russia?No
Germany?No
France?No
Moroco and Indonesia-rumours say they will refuse the offer because of the security situation
Ukraine-plans to retreat
Spain-already retreated

The choices are geting slimer every month.The only country that would seem comited is S Korea an announcement that created furours among the population and violent demonstrations.

Iraq have insurgents ? they are terrorists , and Iraq troops kill 35 terrorists when 7.28 . They stronger day by day , do you understand . don't believe media funny proof .

[Liquid]

ROFLMAO!That`s as stupd as Kimmitt statements always undermining the real threat of the Iraqi insurgents that in the end led to this mess.

Don`t be so ignorant as puting all in the same league.
1)There is Zarqawi`s group who attacks unproteced targets with car bombings and kidnapp unprotected targets.

2)There are the military experienced Iraqis who kill day after day US soldiers in direct confruntations with standard guerilla warfere:roadside bombs,ambushes.They are not terrorists.

3)There are patriotic Iraqis with no military experience motivated by the loss of familly members,Islam who are the most easy targets mostly pray and spray tactics-Al-Sadr militia goes into this category.

Stop spewing this retarded statements.Even the US military is not stupid enough to call them all the same.Read the report where they underestimated their force,capabilities acknowledging foreign fighters numbers are small etc.

Media funny proof?I belive a detailed US military report acknowledging 30% of Iraqi police are corrupt and 40% absent.

Stronger by the day?You amuse me..

[seruriermarshal]

ROFLMAO!That`s as stupd as Kimmitt statements always undermining the real threat of the Iraqi insurgents that in the end led to this mess.

Don`t be so ignorant as puting all in the same league.
1)There is Zarqawi`s group who attacks unproteced targets with car bombings and kidnapp unprotected targets.

2)There are the military experienced Iraqis who kill day after day US soldiers in direct confruntations with standard guerilla warfere:roadside bombs,ambushes.They are not terrorists.

3)There are patriotic Iraqis with no military experience motivated by the loss of familly members,Islam who are the most easy targets mostly pray and spray tactics-Al-Sadr militia goes into this category.

Stop spewing this retarded statements.Even the US military is not stupid enough to call them all the same.Read the report where they underestimated their force,capabilities acknowledging foreign fighters numbers are small etc.

Media funny proof?I belive a detailed US military report acknowledging 30% of Iraqi police are corrupt and 40% absent.

Stronger by the day?You amuse me..

You really amuse me . who tell you they aren't terrorists ? Pehaps those terrorists tell you . You belive a detailed US military report acknowledging 30% of Iraqi police are corrupt and 40% absent ? yes because you wrong .

It's war , soldiers who killed and wounded for a better Iraq , but you won't see that if you think terrorists are right .

And have bad news , but have more good news .

[Liquid]

You really amuse me . who tell you they aren't terrorists ?

Who tell me?A US military report.You want me to post a link so you could educate your ignorant self?


Pehaps those terrorists tell you

Most definetly.Like Bush said you are either with us or with the terrorists. :roll:


You belive a detailed US military report acknowledging 30% of Iraqi police are corrupt and 40% absent ? yes because you wrong .

I R wrong?How so rofl


's war , soldiers who killed and wounded for a better Iraq , but you won't see that if you think terrorists are right .

You really are stupid.Where the hell did I say I agree with the suicide car bombers an beheaders of hostages?Again stop spewing this crap.

seriulmarshal learn some proper english and then we`ll debate.Stop spewing crap and then we`ll debate.
Maker your point with something better then 10 years old rethorics and accusations and then we shall debate.

[seruriermarshal]

Who tell me?A US military report.You want me to post a link so you could educate your ignorant self?

Yes , A US military report told you , then more US military report said :"Iraq have WMD , then you must believe it ."


You really are stupid.Where the hell did I say I agree with the suicide car bombers an beheaders of hostages?Again stop spewing this crap..

Why you know they are different ? Yeh , you don't agree car bomber and beheader , but how stop that ? use your crap ?


seriulmarshal learn some proper english and then we`ll debate.Stop spewing crap and then we`ll debate.
Maker your point with something better then 10 years old rethorics and accusations and then we shall debate.

This kind of incapable idle talk, is only a pitiful excuse.

[Liquid]

Yes , A US military report told you , then more US military report said :"Iraq have WMD , then you must believe it ."

Well that`s intelligent.So the US military report is lieing about the fact not all the enemy factions are terrorist contradicting claims by George W Bush to obtain what?

No because you see I like to use common sense.They`ve said there are WMD and I belived them for a while as I like to give credit to a democratic government.After Saddam hasn`t used WMD during the war when he had the best opourtunity to do so against US soldiers I became suspicious.12 months later of useless diggings finding of weather ballons instead of chemical laboratories I was sure it was a lie.

When Kimmitt said "Fallujah citizens are being held hostage by foreign terrorists" I gave credit he was telling the truth.After 700 civillians were killed,the entire cities were fighting against the Marines from children to elders and seeing the entire city celebrating victory with cars filled with Iraqi insurgents passing through the city`s centre being praised by the civillians I knew it was a lie.



Why you know they are different ? Yeh , you don't agree car bomber and beheader , but how stop that ? use your crap ?

And what crap are you talking about,do you even understand what I am saying.If indeed the language barrier is to deep between us it`s not you nor my fault that you don`t understand my message clearly.

I know because I analyse their tactics instead of eating everything I am told.Zarqawi`s group in Iraq has only claimed attacks on unprotected targets such as truck drivers,Iraqi civillians etc.They showed a deep lack of ability at targeting the US military in the country.

In contrast there are people who are obviously military trained capable of inflicting even a dozen of casualties in just one firefight on the Marines as it was once the case in Ramadi-a city where unemployment rates are high,and many inhabatants were part of the dismantled army who do you think US forces are fighting in there.
There has been a pattern in their attacks around such Sunni bastions raging from the common roadside bomb to long enduring firefights.

Another aspect is that Zarqawi`s group have recived death threats from Iraqi insurgents for their barbaric attacks hurting the Iraqi population.

Their objectives are entirely difrent.While Saddam loyalists and other Iraqis fighting out of patriotic sentiment have the objectives of kicking out the US forces from their country and installing a secular government Zarqawis group seeks an Islamic taliban like Iraq,

So are you still going to use the same old rebutal arguments or use rationality and understand the truth.I am not trying to proove you wrong as I am to old for this games,I just hope you will change your skewed views about Iraq

[Liquid]

triple post

[Liquid]

Sorry for triple post

[Catch22]

Wow a triple post! Rare thing these days... :roll:

Liquid could you provide us with sources of your analyse and research? You stated there are Saddam loyalist groups, you've also presented some corruption % data? Where are those from? Based on what?

[seruriermarshal]

Yes , A US military report told you , then more US military report said :"Iraq have WMD , then you must believe it ."

Well that`s intelligent.So the US military report is lieing about the fact not all the enemy factions are terrorist contradicting claims by George W Bush to obtain what?

No because you see I like to use common sense.They`ve said there are WMD and I belived them for a while as I like to give credit to a democratic government.After Saddam hasn`t used WMD during the war when he had the best opourtunity to do so against US soldiers I became suspicious.12 months later of useless diggings finding of weather ballons instead of chemical laboratories I was sure it was a lie.

When Kimmitt said "Fallujah citizens are being held hostage by foreign terrorists" I gave credit he was telling the truth.After 700 civillians were killed,the entire cities were fighting against the Marines from children to elders and seeing the entire city celebrating victory with cars filled with Iraqi insurgents passing through the city`s centre being praised by the civillians I knew it was a lie.



Why you know they are different ? Yeh , you don't agree car bomber and beheader , but how stop that ? use your crap ?

And what crap are you talking about,do you even understand what I am saying.If indeed the language barrier is to deep between us it`s not you nor my fault that you don`t understand my message clearly.

I know because I analyse their tactics instead of eating everything I am told.Zarqawi`s group in Iraq has only claimed attacks on unprotected targets such as truck drivers,Iraqi civillians etc.They showed a deep lack of ability at targeting the US military in the country.

In contrast there are people who are obviously military trained capable of inflicting even a dozen of casualties in just one firefight on the Marines as it was once the case in Ramadi-a city where unemployment rates are high,and many inhabatants were part of the dismantled army who do you think US forces are fighting in there.
There has been a pattern in their attacks around such Sunni bastions raging from the common roadside bomb to long enduring firefights.

Another aspect is that Zarqawi`s group have recived death threats from Iraqi insurgents for their barbaric attacks hurting the Iraqi population.

Their objectives are entirely difrent.While Saddam loyalists and other Iraqis fighting out of patriotic sentiment have the objectives of kicking out the US forces from their country and installing a secular government Zarqawis group seeks an Islamic taliban like Iraq,

So are you still going to use the same old rebutal arguments or use rationality and understand the truth.I am not trying to proove you wrong as I am to old for this games,I just hope you will change your skewed views about Iraq

Like this ?

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040521/bok.gif


Another aspect is that Zarqawi`s group have recived death threats from Iraqi insurgents

I'll say Iraq have more good Iraqi , like Kurd , so perhaps they are Kurd insurgents .

[Helios X]

(Excerpts)

Ukraine said Thursday it is in negotiations with the United States and Poland to reduce and eventually withdraw its troops from Iraq, becoming the latest country to consider abandoning the risky military mission.

Word of the planned Ukrainian withdrawal came on a day of relative calm in Iraq, following a 24-hour period in which a bombing killed 70 people in the city of Baqouba, three coalition soldiers — two of them U.S. Marines — and dozens of Iraqis died in fighting and terror attacks.

Ukraine opposed the U.S.-led war, but sent troops in part to improve relations with the United States amid accusations that President Leonid Kuchma approved the sale of radar systems to Saddam Hussein.

Ukraine has 1,650 Ukrainian troops serving in the Polish-led force patrolling southern Iraq, making up the fourth-largest, non-U.S. contingent. The soldiers’ mandate was up for renewal in August, and Kuchma had previously suggested that they would remain.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5455104/

What a bunch of dumb cowards. Just because of a bombing and some of soldiers killed(Heard that from TV), dosen't mean they have to retreat to safety. More people in Ukraine die everyday than those in Iraq. No offense to anybody.

[Liquid]

Corruption, abuse surface in new Iraqi police force (http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10669~229378)


BAGHDAD, Iraq -- As Iraq's police fight furiously to win control of the country's lawless streets, they are also displaying abuse, corruption and absenteeism, often from cops hired with little screening under the former U.S.-led occupation.

To address the problems, a new committee of Iraqis and foreign advisers is expected to start reviewing the force in September. It will use $60 million in U.S. money to fire and pay severance packages for an estimated 30,000 police, about a quarter of the current force, said Dan Waddington, an American who is a senior adviser to the Iraqi Interior Ministry.

Iraqi officials say many of the officers to be fired were hired just months ago as U.S. administrator for Iraq L. Paul Bremer rushed to fill the ranks of the security forces. The payment is seen as necessary to make them go quietly.

The police force has been increasingly visible and active since the United States handed over sovereign powers to Iraq June 28, despite being targeted by car-bombers and assassins, which have killed hundreds of police officers.

Iraqis, craving law and order after months of chaos, have largely praised recent police sweeps through crime-ridden neighborhoods. But along the way, police have beaten and imprisoned large numbers of innocent bystanders and killed at least one with errant gunfire.

Police officials are suspected of stocking their ranks with relatives and absenteeism is estimated as high as 40 percent, according to Waddington. Police in special intelligence units tell reporters they are afraid to ask for help from rank-and-file policemen for upcoming raids in fear they will sell the information to criminals.

The Interior Ministry's internal affairs department has filed 80 criminal charges against police, officials said. But oversight at the ministry is also hindered by a dispute between two men who claim title as the ministry's inspector general.

The early performance of the police raises questions about the ability of the new government of interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi to reform the country following the U.S.-led defeat of the brutal, dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein.

"Just about anyone will tell you that we weren't really ready to turn over (power) when we did, but it just had to be done," said Waddington, a former police officer from upstate New York. "In an absolutely perfect world, we would have had another year of total control."

Rebuilding the police force was a priority of the American-led coalition. With great fanfare, former New York police commissioner Bernard Kerik headed up the hiring of thousands of police, some new and others with experience under the former regime.

But Iraqi and American officials now say that police recruited last year were usually hired without background checks and without confirmation of their identities.

"Some of the guys (hired) who said they knew a lot about the police, they knew a lot because they had been arrested a dozen times," Waddington said.

Widespread rumors and a report quoting anonymous sources in an Australian newspaper allege that Allawi himself executed several prisoners in an Iraqi police station last month. Many Iraqis have reacted favorably to the rumors, saying such brutal measures are necessary to combat the wave of terrorism in the country. Allawi and U.S. Embassy officials say the reports are false and Waddington said he does not believe the rumors. But he said he and other advisers are considering checking the rumors to assure that the new Iraq is not starting off like the old one.

Iraqi officials acknowledged that the ranks of the police are flush with cops who should be removed. But they said the first priority is stopping the car bombers, assassins, kidnapping gangs and carjackers who have acted with brazen ruthlessness since the fall of the Saddam regime 16 months ago.

The U.S. military, in its effort to deal with crime and insurgency, also detained thousands of innocents during its occupation of the country.

"We really are in the throes of a massive reorganization of the police," said Ministry of Interior spokesman Sabah Kadhim. "Let's say some excesses will happen but in the situation of the next few months we will have to tolerate them."

In opinion polls and tea shop conversations, Iraqis list security as their biggest problem. They want the police out arresting criminals and most care little about how they are treated.

But public support for the police could turn sour as more innocent victims result from police abuses.

Waddington said he and other police advisers seek to influence Iraqi police to adhere to standards of human rights by enticing them with aid money and new equipment. But he said it will be up to the Iraqis to decide the extent of force police can use as the country struggles to establish a representative and democratic government.

Will Iraqis feel they are being protected by the police, or that they need protection from the police?

"The other day, they arrested some thieves in my neighborhood. I was so happy I got out of my car and kissed the officer," said Ahmed al-Hadithi, 22, who works for a transport company that drives people to Jordan.

But his happiness turned to anger a few days later, when he saw police beating a young man who had failed to pull his car out of their way. "They made him bleed from his nose and mouth. He was just a young boy."

Of course Catch22 I`ll post sources.Not only are 30% layed off but they are going to be payed 60 million dollars so that they won`t attack US forces afterwards

On to the Iraqi insurgency:


BAGHDAD (AP) --Contrary to U.S. government claims, the insurgency in Iraq is led by well-armed Sunnis angry about losing power, not foreign fighters, and is far larger than previously thought, American military officials say.

The officials told The Associated Press the guerrillas can call on loyalists to boost their forces to as high as 20,000 and have enough popular support among nationalist Iraqis angered by the presence of U.S. troops that they cannot be militarily defeated.

That number is far larger than the 5,000 guerrillas previously thought to be at the insurgency's core. And some insurgents are highly specialized ? one Baghdad cell, for instance, has two leaders, one assassin, and two groups of bomb-makers.

Although U.S. military analysts disagree over the exact size, the insurgency is believed to include dozens of regional cells, often led by tribal sheiks and inspired by Sunni Muslim imams.

The developing intelligence picture of the insurgency contrasts with the commonly stated view in the Bush administration that the fighting is fueled by foreign warriors intent on creating an Islamic state.

"We're not at the forefront of a jihadist war here," said a U.S. military official in Baghdad, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The military official, who has logged thousands of miles driving around Iraq to meet with insurgents or their representatives, said a skillful Iraqi government could co-opt some of the guerrillas and reconcile with the leaders instead of fighting them.

"I generally like a lot of these guys," he said. "We know who the key people are in all the different cities, and generally how they operate. The problem is getting actionable information so you can either attack them, arrest them or engage them."

Even as Iraqi leaders wrangle over the contentious issue of offering a broad amnesty to guerrilla fighters, the new Iraqi military and intelligence corps have begun gathering and sharing information on the insurgents with the U.S. military, providing a sharper picture of a complex insurgency.

"Nobody knows about Iraqis and all the subtleties in culture, appearance, religion and so forth better than Iraqis themselves," said U.S. Army Lt. Col. Daniel Baggio, a military spokesman at Multinational Corps headquarters in Baghdad. "We're very optimistic about the Iraqis' use of their own human intelligence to help root out these insurgents."

The intelligence boost has allowed American pilots to bomb suspected insurgent safe houses over the past two weeks, with Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi saying Iraqis supplied information for at least one of those airstrikes. But the better view of the insurgency also contradicts much of the popular wisdom about it.

Estimates of the insurgents' manpower tend to be too low. Last week, a former coalition official said 4,000 to 5,000 Baathists form the core of the insurgency, with other attacks committed by a couple hundred supporters of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and hundreds of other foreign fighters.

Anthony Cordesman, an Iraq analyst with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the figure of 5,000 insurgents "was never more than a wag and is now clearly ridiculous."

"Part-timers are difficult to count, but almost all insurgent movements depend on cadres that are part-time and that can blend back into the population," he said.

U.S. military analysts disagree over the size of the insurgency, with estimates running as high as 20,000 fighters when part-timers are added.

Ahmed Hashim, a professor at the U.S. Naval War College, said the higher numbers squared with his findings in a study of the insurgency completed in Iraq.

One hint that the number is larger is the sheer volume of suspected insurgents ? 22,000 ? who have cycled through U.S.-run prisons. Most have been released. And in April alone, U.S. forces killed as many as 4,000 people, the military official said, including Sunni insurgents and Shiite militiamen fighting under the banner of a radical cleric.

There has been no letup in attacks. On Thursday, insurgents detonated a car bomb and then attacked a military headquarters in Samarra, a center of resistance in the Sunni Triangle 60 miles north of the capital, killing five U.S. soldiers and one Iraqi guardsman.

Guerrilla leaders come from various corners of Saddam's Baath Party, including lawyers' groups, prominent families and especially from his Military Bureau, an internal security arm used to purge enemies. They've formed dozens of cells.

U.S. military documents obtained by AP show a guerrilla band mounting attacks in Baghdad that consists of two leaders, four sub-leaders and 30 members, broken down by activity. There is a pair of financiers, two cells of car bomb-builders, an assassin, separate teams launching mortar and rocket attacks, and others handling roadside bombs and ambushes.

Most of the insurgents are fighting for a bigger role in a secular society, not a Taliban-like Islamic state, the military official said. Almost all the guerrillas are Iraqis, even those launching some of the devastating car bombings normally blamed on foreigners ? usually al-Zarqawi.

The official said many car bombings bore the "tradecraft" of Saddam's former secret police and were aimed at intimidating Iraq's new security services.

Many in the U.S. intelligence community have been making similar points, but have encountered political opposition from the Bush administration, a State Department official in Washington said, also speaking on condition of anonymity.

Civilian analysts generally agreed, saying U.S. and Iraqi officials have long overemphasized the roles of foreign fighters and Muslim extremists.

Such positions support the Bush administration's view that the insurgency is linked to the war on terror. A closer examination paints most insurgents as secular Iraqis angry at the presence of U.S. and other foreign troops.

"Too much U.S. analysis is fixated on terms like 'jihadist,' just as it almost mindlessly tries to tie everything to (Osama) bin Laden," Cordesman said. "Every public opinion poll in Iraq ... supports the nationalist character of what is happening."

Many guerrillas are motivated by Islam in the same way religion motivates American soldiers, who also tend to pray more when they're at war, the U.S. military official said.

He said he met Tuesday with four tribal sheiks from Ramadi who "made very clear" that they had no desire for an Islamic state, even though mosques are used as insurgent sanctuaries and funding centers.

'"We're not a bunch of Talibans,'" he paraphrased the sheiks as saying.

At the orders of Gen. John Abizaid, the U.S. commander of Mideast operations, Army analysts looked closely for evidence that Iraq's insurgency was adopting extreme Islamist goals, the official said. Analysts learned that ridding Iraq of U.S. troops was the motivator for most insurgents, not the formation of an Islamic state.

The officer said Iraq's insurgents have a big advantage over guerrillas elsewhere: plenty of arms, money, and training. Iraq's lack of a national identity card system ? and guerrillas' refusal to plan attacks by easily intercepted telephone calls ? makes them difficult to track.

"They have learned a great deal over the last year, and with far more continuity than the rotating U.S. forces and Iraqi security forces," Cordesman said of the guerrillas. "They have learned to react very quickly and in ways our sensors and standard tactics cannot easily deal with."


http://www.11alive.com/news/usnews_article.aspx?storyid=49006

Seriulmarshal don`t even bother posting some more of you abnoxious crap.I am done confronting your twisted views and moronic cartoons

[seruriermarshal]

On to the Iraqi insurgency:

Then have any proof about who send death threats to Zarqwi ?

:roll:

[aartamen]

As the article said the Ukrainians are unhappy with their gov-t position on the issue. Plus their president was implicated in a murder of a journalist and some other unsurvivable by the Western standards crap. That was a while ago though. He survived that. May be he wants to appear populist so his choice gets elected next (he's ineligible to run). They hardly did anything productive anyway. There was a huge debacle around Kut during the April uptick.

[GrantT]

All these cowardice countries who withdraw from Iraq at such a critical time should be ashamed of themselves. This is an incredibly fragile time for Iraq and the region as a whole and should be given as much support as possible, shame some people are out to stop that.