Roman Conquest of Dacia

[Derbedeu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrokQoc09hA




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFZwyTyJKU




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU39TackchY




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oulspqATCbQ




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnH4ErD2p2Q

[Derbedeu]

The Dacian flag:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/old-flag-of-dacians.gif

Some pics of people reenacting the Roman-Dacian wars:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Caius-Iulius-Valerianus--Remaxos2.jpg

A good example of how Dacian soldiers looked like:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Bicilis-Rubobostes--Comosicus2.jpg

Notice the blade that the person on the left is holding. It's called a falx. It was sharpened on the inside of the curve. The Dacians also had even longer versions, which were spear sized. They proved to be quite deadly against Roman soldiers, since they could easily reach around a shield or cut off an arm or leg.

Another example of a Dacian soldier outfit:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Daciansoldier.jpg

[Derbedeu]

Sarmizegetusa was the capital of the Dacians under Decebalus, and from where they made their last stand. Today it's a Unesco heritage site.

I visited the place two years ago, and it was quite an experience to say the least. First off, it's literally in a mountain forest in the middle of nowhere. The road that takes you there ends at a gate:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/IMG_1175.jpg (http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/IMG_1175.jpg?t=1277187865)

About 200 yards from that gate the road becomes about the bumpiest and rockiest dirt road I have ever been on. Being in a hatchback didn't help either and as a result I was stuck doing about 5-15 mph. My Uncle, brother, and I got at the gate at around 6 PM and it took us about an hour and a half to make something like 5-6 miles. We then had to trudge by foot for another two miles, uphill I might add.

The worst of it was that we had no water or food with us since we had no idea the trip would be so laborious. :-(

On the way to the site, we came across various ruins of the city, including walls and roads:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Murus_Dacicus.jpg

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/IMG_1179.jpg

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/IMG_1177.jpg

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Paved_Dacian_road.jpg

When we did get to the site, we were kind of surprised to see that there were actually quite a few people up there, something like 40 of them. They all had camping equipment with them, and to our surprise they even had their vehicles up there. Turns out there was another path that led to the site that could be accessed by car, but of course we took the one that wasn't. :cantbeli:

Pics of the ruins and the sign explaining what they are:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Sarmizegetusa_temples.jpg

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/20673_1024.jpg

Luckily for us, there was also a mountain stream there, which provided us with some much needed water:

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/IMG_1235.jpg

The water was surprisingly cold, clean, and very refreshing. Anyway, we spent something like half an hour just relaxing and checking out the view. We would have stayed a bit longer, but it was getting dark, and we kind of got freaked out by the rest of the people there. As soon as the sun started setting, they all got in a circle and started chanting and dancing and ****. Turns out they were all druids or something! :-)

It was pretty unnerving since we had no inkling beforehand, and they didn't even appear to know each other for the half hour that we were exploring the area. We hightailed it out of there, but it by then it had already turned pitch dark. In the middle of a freaking forest! The whole time on the way back to our car I kept thinking we were going to either going to get lost, eaten by bears, or sacrificed by some crazy druids. :|

Thankfully we made it safely back to our car, even though it took us another hour and a half to navigate back to the road.

All in all, a truly memorable experience. :lol:

[valtrex]

Very interesting Derbedeu, thanks

[Connaught Ranger]

Forget the Druids, bears, watch out for the Vampires.woot

[randir14]

Thanks, you don't often get to see videos about Rome's less famous conquests.

[Superking]

I thougt I was going to se clips with Abarth 500's challenging Dacia Sanderos at red lights. This was better...it had swords in it.

[TheKiwi]

Very interesting, I didn't know much about the Dacian wars.

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Bicilis-Rubobostes--Comosicus2.jpg

Smurf hat!

[kitatatsumi]

I love how if you want to see roman stuff, you dont have to go to Rome. (Knowing that Dacians were not Romans)
I lived on the Rhine in Germany for a few years, pretty much all of those cities have some type of Roman wall or something to see.

[Connaught Ranger]

I love how if you want to see roman stuff, you dont have to go to Rome. (Knowing that Dacians were not Romans)
I lived on the Rhine in Germany for a few years, pretty much all of those cities have some type of Roman wall or something to see.

Which walls in the thread are you referring too?

Sarmizegetusa is a Dacian constructed site.

[Auu]

I see some of Dacian structures in this pictures, and that culture amazed me when I watched Terry Jones' Barbarians series which "challenges the received Roman and Roman Catholic notion of the barbarian".

Truly amazing piece.

[kitatatsumi]

@ CR
I wasn't referring to any particular part of the thread, just adding that there is a lot of great ancient stuff to see in Europe.This is just one example. Maybe to a European its elementary, but as an American, we tend to think of ancient Europe as being Rome and Athens and nothing else.

Interesting to see my old Professor Florin Curta on the video

[Auu]

@ CR
I wasn't referring to any particular part of the thread, just adding that there is a lot of great ancient stuff to see in Europe.This is just one example. Maybe to a European its elementary, but as an American, we tend to think of ancient Europe as being Rome and Athens and nothing else.

Oh no, Romans were just acting like "barbarians" - erasing all that high, but less aggressive cultures in Europe. And Romans, as vanquishers - wrote the official history. So it's actually not "elementary" in Europe :-)
You should really search for that Terry Jones' Barbarians, it 's really awesome.
Rapidshare links are available.

[Abu_Elvis]

You can find that part on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGHMp5x5uds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRkZNdHN_Is

Romans were not nice guys, Jews are one of the few peoples who both survived Roman attempted genocide, and had records of the different version of history from official Roman. I can tell you that dying on the cross was not at all unique as gospels want to portray... They are known for completely wiping out conquered cities and building Roman cities on top. That's why you get so many Roman ruins, and not much else from the period...

[Connaught Ranger]

They are known for completely wiping out conquered cities and building Roman cities on top. That's why you get so many Roman ruins, and not much else from the period...

So much so that if you travel along the road between Hateg to Otel Rosu , you will come across another Sarmizegetusa, this time the Roman built one.

You can think of the Romans as something like the BORG, the conquered natives were expected to go Roman,

and all traces of heathen culture were eradicated and used in Roman construction projects.

Connaught Ranger.

[Facaletz]

thanks for vids,intresting and beautiful

[ThatHistoryDude]

Oh no, Romans were just acting like "barbarians" - erasing all that high, but less aggressive cultures in Europe. And Romans, as vanquishers - wrote the official history. So it's actually not "elementary" in Europe :-)
You should really search for that Terry Jones' Barbarians, it 's really awesome.
Rapidshare links are available.


What European cultures were less aggressive than Rome? The Dacian wars really get their start as punitive raids in retaliation for the Dacians raiding Moesia. The Celts were hardly peace loving either just look up the Gallic invasion of the Balkans to see what I mean. The various Germanic tribes had a fearsome reputation as well and from early evidence appear expansionist see Caesar's Gallic Wars and Tacitus.

Generally speaking most Ancient cultures were militarily expansionist and it just becomes a question of scale and success. The Romans were able to mobilize more men and use them more effectively for longer periods of time than most of their contemporaries. Rome was really no worse and no better about it's warlike nature than most of it's contemporaries in Iron Age Europe.

Terry Jones' Barbarians is an interesting piece of revisionist history but is should be used only to balance out more pro Roman sources not in and of itself to justify a person's view of the Romans.

[Connaught Ranger]

What European cultures were less aggressive than Rome? The Dacian wars really get their start as punitive raids in retaliation for the Dacians raiding Moesia. The Celts were hardly peace loving either just look up the Gallic invasion of the Balkans to see what I mean. The various Germanic tribes had a fearsome reputation as well and from early evidence appear expansionist see Caesar's Gallic Wars and Tacitus.

Generally speaking most Ancient cultures were militarily expansionist and it just becomes a question of scale and success. The Romans were able to mobilize more men and use them more effectively for longer periods of time than most of their contemporaries. Rome was really no worse and no better about it's warlike nature than most of it's contemporaries in Iron Age Europe.

Terry Jones' Barbarians is an interesting piece of revisionist history but is should be used only to balance out more pro Roman sources not in and of itself to justify a person's view of the Romans.

Lets not forget Romes other interest in Dacians the large Gold producing industry.

[Auu]

What European cultures were less aggressive than Rome? The Dacian wars really get their start as punitive raids in retaliation for the Dacians raiding Moesia. The Celts were hardly peace loving either just look up the Gallic invasion of the Balkans to see what I mean. The various Germanic tribes had a fearsome reputation as well and from early evidence appear expansionist see Caesar's Gallic Wars and Tacitus.

Generally speaking most Ancient cultures were militarily expansionist and it just becomes a question of scale and success. The Romans were able to mobilize more men and use them more effectively for longer periods of time than most of their contemporaries. Rome was really no worse and no better about it's warlike nature than most of it's contemporaries in Iron Age Europe.

Terry Jones' Barbarians is an interesting piece of revisionist history but is should be used only to balance out more pro Roman sources not in and of itself to justify a person's view of the Romans.

Yet - it seems that only Romans commited genocide and totally erased evidences of other cultures?
Or you disagree with that, too?
I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking - for you obviously are...
And all of that interests me a lot.

[Derbedeu]

Yet - it seems that only Romans commited genocide and totally erased evidences of other cultures?
Or you disagree with that, too?
I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking - for you obviously are...
And all of that interests me a lot.

I wouldn't say they were in the habit of committing genocide or erasing cultures. You have to keep in mind that the one thing that separated the Romans from everyone else was their organizational skills. This allowed them to spread their laws and customs much more easier than the other people in Europe at the time. Even so, there were still clear difference between , let's say, Roman Gaul and Roman Dacia, because while Roman influence was evident in both, it was still an amalgamation of Roman culture and the native culture. There is a lot of evidence that the Dacians weren't wiped out by the Romans, but intermingled with the Romans to form the first proto-Romanians.* The problem is that there is not a lot of information on the Dacians, so one can't be 100% sure. For example, there are words in the Romanian language that have no basis in any of the languages of the region, whether Latin, Greek, Turkish, or Slavic. Philologists and Historians think that these words are based on the Dacian language. The problem is that the Dacian language is not known, so such a claim can't be stated with certainty.

Interesting enough, Trajan's column contains a part that shows some Dacians emigrating following the Roman conquest. These people are believed to have been the Free Dacians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Dacians

The column also shows Romans discussing/negotiating with the Dacians directly w/o the use of someone as a translator, leading to the belief that Latin and Roman influence might have been pervasive in Dacia even before the conquests.

[Abu_Elvis]

Yet - it seems that only Romans commited genocide and totally erased evidences of other cultures?
Or you disagree with that, too?
I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking - for you obviously are...
And all of that interests me a lot.

I must agree, genocide was regular way of doing politics in those days. Romans were just more successful and systematic in it then others. But then again (oh my, here comes the Godwin's law), that's the argument for Nazis being the ultimate evil in history, that they organized a cold, bureaucratic and efficient industry of death. Nobody claims that they invented hate. Same here, others did genocides, but Romans did it more and in more organized and systematic fashion. Defence of Romans in that regard is rather similar to Eichmann's defence, he was just a bureaucrat (while the fact that bureaucrats of death exist is the proof for the ultimate evil of the system)...

[ThatHistoryDude]

Yet - it seems that only Romans commited genocide and totally erased evidences of other cultures?
Or you disagree with that, too?
I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking - for you obviously are...
And all of that interests me a lot.

Generally speaking the Romans were not in the habit of committing genocide. Genocide is the intentional annihilation of an ethnic of cultural group and other than maybe Carthage I cannot think of a time the Romans can be accused of doing this. Most often the Romans tried to leave civic leadership and sometimes even local sovereignty intact with the locals reporting to a Roman higher up.

What sometimes seems like Genocide is actually just the slow process of cultural assimilation. Rome had for the time a sophisticated and wealthy material culture that spread rapidly through several mechanisms, known collectively as Romanization. This had the effect of wiping many conquered cultures from the archaeological record but is not evidence for genocide.

Even if we take revisionists like Jones at face value and assume the Romans did attempt genocide or cultural annihilation they were not unique in history. The Assyrians spring to mind with their forced deportations of conquered people that we see both in their own propaganda and in the Old Testament.


Lets not forget Romes other interest in Dacians the large Gold producing industry.

Certainly the wealth of Dacia ensured that it was eventually conquered by Rome in the early second century. Rome was generally more than happy to rely on punitive expeditions and bribes to keep borders, like Germany's, stable that they did not see as worth the cost of conquering for one reason or another. But Dacia was not apparently a going concern with the Romans until the late first century when their raids in Moesia caused emperor Domitian to retaliate.

[Carib]

Very interesting, I didn't know much about the Dacian wars.

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab359/Derbedeu55/Bicilis-Rubobostes--Comosicus2.jpg

Smurf hat!


Actually a Phrygin cap as depicted on the US ARMY flag.

[Mordoror]

I must agree, genocide was regular way of doing politics in those days. Romans were just more successful and systematic in it then others. But then again (oh my, here comes the Godwin's law), that's the argument for Nazis being the ultimate evil in history, that they organized a cold, bureaucratic and efficient industry of death. Nobody claims that they invented hate. Same here, others did genocides, but Romans did it more and in more organized and systematic fashion. Defence of Romans in that regard is rather similar to Eichmann's defence, he was just a bureaucrat (while the fact that bureaucrats of death exist is the proof for the ultimate evil of the system)...

Huuu ?
hum sorry but
* what is the roman military action that could be regarded as "genocide"
even in regards on the actual (in the sense nowaday) rules of war they may be accumtable for something like "war crime"
certainly not genocide
and given the rules of war at that time in fact no they are not guilty of any war crime in fact

* the roman organized a systematic roadmap of annihilation of other peoples ??
IIRC the roman were pretty welcoming regardless of the skin color, the ethnicity, the culture and the faith if the newcomer accepted some basis of the Roman way of life (revere the emperor, obey romans laws)
they never organized military and extermination campaigns because of a ethnicity or religion hate
if such seeming campaigns were done they were (and they are not numerous) because of political or strategical issues

in fact not more than two "ethnicities" (infact religions) were persecuted widely under roman rule : the jews and the christians....because both didn't recognized the authority of the Emperor
had they did that, even their monotheistic religion would have been accepted by the Romans

listen i find taht all roman-genocidary scum very unhistorical and a little bit odd
the romans were not tender when it came to crack down revolts or crush military opponents
but they assimilated very often willingly a lot of different people and customs and other people assimilated in the Romanian empire willingly too because it was the pinnacle of civilization at that time
to finish it was not in the interest of the romans to be genocidal maniacs because of one thing that make the world turn : money and manpower
prisoners were more worthy than a pile of bones : they made slaves, working force, settlers and finally romanian citizens and soldiers at the far edge of the Empire
all that couldn't be achieved by systematic extermination

[Derbedeu]

listen i find taht all roman-genocidary scum very unhistorical and a little bit odd
the romans were not tender when it came to crack down revolts or crush military opponents
but they assimilated very often willingly a lot of different people and customs and other people assimilated in the Romanian empire willingly too because it was the pinnacle of civilization at that time
to finish it was not in the interest of the romans to be genocidal maniacs because of one thing that make the world turn : money and manpower
prisoners were more worthy than a pile of bones : they made slaves, working force, settlers and finally romanian citizens and soldiers at the far edge of the Empire
all that couldn't be achieved by systematic extermination

I never knew we were such bad-asses Mordoror! :p

[Russianlynxy]

and lastly lets not forget why Romania is called Romania. The Dacians unlike many other European subgroups (especially the Franks and Gauls) were not subjected to brutal assimilation from the Romans. Romania may actually be the last place on earth where the remnants of "true" Romans remain, more so than today's Italy.

Of course it was the Scythians, Sarmatians, Aryans, Varangians, and Slavs that later eventually inherited Third Rome ;)

[OnTheRocks]

Here's a nice little link that deals with the Dacian Falx amongst other things

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/ranistorum/site_eng/arma.html

[T3ngu]

Derbedeu, thanks for posting those photos.

[Mordoror]

I never knew we were such bad-asses Mordoror! :p

oops i gooffed p-)

[Eoin666]

Here's a nice little link that deals with the Dacian Falx amongst other things

http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/ranistorum/site_eng/arma.html

If you look at the images on Trajan's column many legonairies have modified Gallic helmets with strengthening bands, after it was found a falx could penetrate the standard helmet. The other thing is how many troops are wearing the manica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manica_(armguard)

[MGL:s Reconstructors]

i m gonna watch this, senx

[OnTheRocks]

If you look at the images on Trajan's column many legonairies have modified Gallic helmets with strengthening bands, after it was found a falx could penetrate the standard helmet. The other thing is how many troops are wearing the manica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manica_(armguard)

Yep I knew that, but it was only issued to legionnaires and not to the auxilla AFAIK right?

[ThatHistoryDude]

Yep I knew that, but it was only issued to legionnaires and not to the auxilla AFAIK right?

This is not entirely clear. In the past it has been assumed that the Legionaries got the better equipment than their Auxilia comrades. Lately sculptural evidence including Trajan's column has begun to cast doubt on this assumption. It is now accepted that non-specialist auxilia infantry were equipped much like their Legionary contemporaries including often using the more expensive lorica segmentata and not always the cheaper lorica hamata.

It is perfectly possible both auxiliaries and legionaries wore the manica or that only one or the other did. Gotta love how ambiguous ancient history can be.

[kitatatsumi]

I could be way off but....I thought soldiers in the Roman army were pretty much responsible for supplying their own kit? Wouldn't this mean that, within reason, a soldier could basically have whatever armor he wanted? II know there was a lot of standardization, as in the round vs. rectangle shields, but I remember reading that the idea of the Roman army having identical helmets and tunics of all the same color is a modern fantasy.

[ThatHistoryDude]

I could be way off but....I thought soldiers in the Roman army were pretty much responsible for supplying their own kit? Wouldn't this mean that, within reason, a soldier could basically have whatever armor he wanted? II know there was a lot of standardization, as in the round vs. rectangle shields, but I remember reading that the idea of the Roman army having identical helmets and tunics of all the same color is a modern fantasy.

Its believed that around the time of the Marian reforms c. 100BC individual generals and/or the state become responsible for outfitting the troops. Basically when the army switched from a part time militia system to a full time professional one the soldiers themselves became less and less responsible for their own gear. By the time of the Dacian wars there were numerous state run fabricae, which were state run weapons and armor factories. (Its doubtful that they were much like what we think of as factories more like lots of workshops all in one place).

Probably legionaries who could would buy gear that they preferred, just like today, but by the Imperial period they didn't have to.

edit to add: None of this means of course that the legions were totally uniform. At the time of the Dacian wars for example there is evidence for at least three types of lorica (body armor) and a couple of different helmet types.

[OnTheRocks]

I could be way off but....I thought soldiers in the Roman army were pretty much responsible for supplying their own kit? Wouldn't this mean that, within reason, a soldier could basically have whatever armor he wanted? II know there was a lot of standardization, as in the round vs. rectangle shields, but I remember reading that the idea of the Roman army having identical helmets and tunics of all the same color is a modern fantasy.

Camilian and Polybian legionnaires AFAIK supplied their own kit to some degree which was part of the reason why the earlier legionnaires were divided according to kit (wealth) and experience.

[radu]

This is an interesting article about Dacian big curved swords (Falx), with some photos and descriptions of the few blades ever find until now. There is too an example of "manica" discovered and couple helmets with reinforcements.

Article is in Romanian mostly but have a part in English too

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33876270/Borangic-C-Incursiune-in-Arsenalul-Armelor-Curbe-Tracice-Falx-Dacica-Sebus-I-2009

[kitatatsumi]

128177 Here is a helmet from Saalburg in Germany clearly showing the reinforcement bands.