So say after the Battle of Poland...

[JordanN]

Stalin reveals his expansionist plans and attacks Germany with the intent of not only annexing them but most of Europe as well. Now, Hitler comes to the major allies at that time (Britain and France) begging them to help fight the Soviets.

This leaves them with three options:

One: Stop the war with Germany and help Hitler fend off the Soviets.
Two: Decline Hitler's offer and continue fighting Germany till their capitulation (where they would eventually meet up with Soviet Forces in Berlin).
Three: Stop the war with Germany but don't help them either in their war against the Soviets.

Here are some things to think about...

With option one, the allies would be fighting alongside German troops but at the same time they would be ignoring the horrors and injustices that had been going on in the Nazi regime. It would also make them look hypocritical on their part for siding with one evil against another. But, if they side with Germany they would gain a de facto ally thus making "war with the soviets" a lot more easier.

Now, with option two, the allies wouldn't have to worry about nazi collaberation, however, they would lose out on fighting the soviets early, meaning a confrontation later will take a lot more effort then it would from an earlier time.

The third option seems more of a relaxer for the allies as not only do they not have to put their militaries in harms way but they also get to watch the two most hated countries in Europe duke it out. The draw side though is now they have no strategic advantages and the Soviets would be even more closer to their door steps.

[TheKiwi]

Well the very first question I would ask is why would the USSR do such a thing? Thanks to the Ribbentrop-Molitov non-agression pack, both parties are doing rather well out of co-operating with one an other. The German's are getting oil, grain and fodder for their horses. The USSR is getting plans for ships and manufacturing plants (although the Germans cunningly did as little as possible to fill their side of the bargain, delaying everything in a vasy swaith of red tape).

The Western Allies at the time regarded the USSR as practically being an ally of Germany. Plans were even put in place to bomb the Soviet oil facilities in Baku. It is quite possible that they could have even found them selves fighting the USSR too as a result of the Winter War.

[JordanN]

Well the very first question I would ask is why would the USSR do such a thing? Thanks to the Ribbentrop-Molitov non-agression pack, both parties are doing rather well out of co-operating with one an other. The German's are getting oil, grain and fodder for their horses. The USSR is getting plans for ships and manufacturing plants (although the Germans cunningly did as little as possible to fill their side of the bargain, delaying everything in a vasy swaith of red tape).I'm basing this off Stalin's plans of invading Europe in 1944 (with the difference of the plan being kick started much earlier).
Sure, there was the trade going on but the intentions were clear from the start (Hitler really hated Slavs and Stalin was uber paranoid).

[TheKiwi]

Stalin was also quite smart. Why attack Germany when she's not tied up in a messy conflict that prevents her from giving the USSR full attention? Germany could easily hold at bay French and UK forces at their western border (more by upper echelon paralysis than by fortifications). Stalin was unlikely to try anything when he could easily see the western allies doing his work for him (ie defeating and weakening Germany). The most likely time for such an attack would be during the May 1940 attacks on France and the low countries. However, this was over and done with far too fast (and the results were also all wrong for Stalin). Finally, you seem to assume that German intel wouldn't detect preperations for such an attack, and that nothing would be done to prepare for it.

The performance of the Red Army during the 1st attacks on Finland make it seem likely that any such attack in late 1939/early 1940 would be a disasterous defeat.

[Kilgor]

With Churchill in Power and the US not in the war, there was Zero, Zilch chance of a alliance with Hitler. As much as Churchill hated communism, he hated Hitler even more.

And as for Hitler begging for support ? are you serious?

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Nazi-Soviet War in 1939, before Hitler invaded western Europe? I imagine the Brits and French might have let the two giants beat each other to death.

[Mastermind]

I chose option 2 since I already believe the European Allies were somewhat approached to help Germany or at least settle with Germany to let the Germans have their way with Russia. There are seve3ral large and practical reasons why the two pro Germany options would not have worked. the primary reason was the untrustwortness of Hitler. How could any nation trust Hitler when he was back stabbing an already signed-up "Non-aggression" agency? Also, far too much of Hitler's plans would have had to be revealed to governments that had too much to gain in seeing Hitler defeated by the Soviets. This would have clearly resulted in a "showing of the German hand" to Stalin. Simply could not be practical from both a political and military point of view. Also, I have to say it would have been tempting to say the western allies could have "ascertained" the "leave Germany alone to kick Stalins behind" option without too much difficulty. But, Hitler had already damaged western relations irreparably with his surprisingly rapid and complete defeat of France and a very large British force. Politically, I suppose they could have sued for peace if they had been given enough time or had they even been approached at the right time. But, that would have required an immeasurably small window of opportunity considering the amazingly rapid defeat of France and English forces.

I believe, if Hitler had played his cards correctly even before the Check affair and the Balkan disaster had been avoided by Mussolini, Hitler may have had a bit of time to dally with a diplomatic solution on the Western arena. I think it is possible in the very few weeks Chaimberlain had to deal with that Hitler could have developed some sort of deal. But, that was a near impossible opportunity to even see considering the inflated self image the Germans then had and the very vulnerable position the Brits were in. The Germans had probably very momentarily thought they could achieve a short time of non-aggression on the west...but that time was very fleeting and probably not worth considering once the war machine was in motion. Egos just could not accept the utter wastage of such a strong military position, which we must agree, seemed completely unstoppable at the time.

If Hitler had been a person of some intelligence and of a good military training with excellent diplomatic advisors who he would have listend to, yes...things probably would have...could have...worked out much more to Germany's benefit. The opportunities were clearly there. But, with Hitler the real person, it was just not possible.

[Antey]

Megaraptor;5029359']Nazi-Soviet War in 1939, before Hitler invaded western Europe? I imagine the Brits and French might have let the two giants beat each other to death.

Either way, the winner would eventually came after allies - and had such thing happened, it wouldn't be two-front fight as it was for Germans and to lesser extent, to USSR.

[gaijinsamurai]

Two. I think we had a moral duty to put a stop to the extermination camps as soon as possible.

[Kitsune]

This thread asks a question that is unfortunately almost never asked today. Essentially: was it really so clever what France and Britain did at the time or was it their policy that helped to bring WWII about with all the terrible consequences it had for Europe in the short, middle and long term, France and Britain included?
The one thing I do not like is the specific form the question is posed: "Give Nazi Germany/Hitler a chance or fight the original war". How about "give Germany a chance" instead? Contrary to what many seem to believe, Germans are not, in their most natural state of being Nazis, nor are Nazis necessarily Germans. In fact, the Nationalsocialists ruled Germany for a mere six years before "WWII broke out", all in all the Dark Age under Adolf the Ugly lasted for only twelve years. That is about the time between today and the days when the US newspapers where discussing wether Ms Levinsky gave Bill Clinton a blow job or not. So, again: was it really necessary to crush Germany the way it was done, and even help the Sovietunion, ruled by a certain Josef Stalin no less, to take over all of Eastern Europe and a good part of Central Europe? And was it wise? Even if we take into account that underneath Stalin's tyranny is "Russia" the same way as under Hitler's tyranny is "Germany", was it really so clever for especially Britain, France and the USA to support Russia against Germany the way they did - namely all the way?

[Stormz_STA]

Well, Kitsune, I see your revisionist tendencies are still alive and well.

[Antey]

So, again: was it really necessary to crush Germany the way it was done, and even help the Sovietunion, ruled by a certain Josef Stalin no less, to take over all of Eastern Europe and a good part of Central Europe? And was it wise?

Dude, have you EVER seen Germany ? Europe's by far most populous, wealthiest and best organized country ... is it in any way crushed ? Does it look any way like something that has lost significant war ?
Nope; the only looser was - perhaps - German Armed Forces, but still, quoting one british soldier form another era, "even if they came second, they certainly have won by bodycount". Wanna see crushed, broken, country like entiny ? Look to the east...

I'd like to remind you, that GERMANS themselves have chosen radical, minority politician and later fought valiantly for his ideology all over the Europe and surroundings to the bitter end. They have paid very little price, if any, for tens of millions of victims, for destroying entire British Empire, laying waste to half of USSR and killing there alone population equal to one of many contemporary states. Actually, the WWII paid off for Germans quite handsomely.

We also had another thread about western support for USSR - it turnes out, that it wasn't that essential at all.

Actually, Germans should be grateful to Red Army for putting them down just in time, to prevent British from using anthrax on Berlin and before Americans could use nuclear weapons on European theater.

[Mastermind]

Even though Hitler ruled for a mere 12 years, it was an absolutely monstrous 12 years. The man was inarguably a homicidal maniac. Stalin was even worse! Mussolini and Hirohito were on par with all of them. What happened to the human race between 1914 and 1945? What ever it was, it was unprecedented.

To think that there was a choice between giving support for Hitler or Stalin is really not even debatable because both were a Faustian choice…that is, to choose either one was clearly a deal with the Devil. As it turned out, Hitler struck the west first, making a choice between the two not a choice at all. If we had to have one or the other, Stalin was unfortunately it. When he demanded his Devil’s due at the ned of the war, Churchill was not shocked, although he was furious. He was disgusted that the Poles, who fought so bravely had to be forced into the slave labor camps of Stalin along with millions of other allied fighters and civilians. It truly was sickening.

Imagine what would have happened if the west had made the deal with Hitler to fight against the Soviets? If we (that is, the Anglo/German/Italian alliance)had won and successfully destroyed Stalin and the Soviets, the death and agony probably would have been even worse. Then, what about Japan? It has been credibly argued, the Japanese would not have surrendered, even with the use of the atom bombs against them. I happen to ascribe to that belief. The Japanese received very little allied help from the Germans. And they were stunned to utter disbelief when the Russians refused to renew the non-aggression pact in 1945. When the Russians attacked the Japanese in Manchuria, it was a no-brainer. No one really knows how many were killed in the Russian attack, but the numbers were devastating and the Japanese entire reason for going to war in the first place, Manchuria, was lost almost overnight. This event is what brought their surrender. Would a German win in the east be continued on to provide the same impetus to the Japanese?

The War was a very, very complex human event that was unpredictable from day to day. It really did not end its influence over human history in 1945…in fact; I believe it is credible that the war continues on with its influence over the world to this very day. Would we be having all these “Terrorist” problems today if the creations of the states in the ME had not been arranged due to the war? What about the Balkans? What about the other Mediterranean states, such as Israel, Libya? What about all the Empire destruction post war. Of France, Portugal, England, etc. Would we have had an Indochina war, Vietnam, if the war had not happened as it did? What about Korea? If the Germans had won in the Soviet union, we could almost certainly see there was not going to be a Korean war…but, perhaps something even worse.

Toying with history like this results in a fruitless mind game that has no answers….just idle speculations.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Stalin was a mass murderer who killed even more people than Hitler, but Stalin didn't try to exterminate all Germans the way Hitler planned to exterminate all Russians.

[Stormz_STA]

Dude, have you EVER seen Germany ? Europe's by far most populous, wealthiest and best organized country ... is it in any way crushed ? Does it look any way like something that has lost significant war ?
Nope; the only looser was - perhaps - German Armed Forces, but still, quoting one british soldier form another era, "even if they came second, they certainly have won by bodycount". Wanna see crushed, broken, country like entiny ? Look to the east...

I'd like to remind you, that GERMANS themselves have chosen radical, minority politician and later fought valiantly for his ideology all over the Europe and surroundings to the bitter end. They have paid very little price, if any, for tens of millions of victims, for destroying entire British Empire, laying waste to half of USSR and killing there alone population equal to one of many contemporary states. Actually, the WWII paid off for Germans quite handsomely.

We also had another thread about western support for USSR - it turnes out, that it wasn't that essential at all.

Actually, Germans should be grateful to Red Army for putting them down just in time, to prevent British from using anthrax on Berlin and before Americans could use nuclear weapons on European theater.

x2

Good post, Antey.

[Russianlynxy]

Kitsune at it again.

Fine, Western allies should have helped Germany... in the long term interests of Western civilization preservation and triumph!
Jeez, I've heard it all already. Too bad historical analysis is a little more complicated than that.

[Robert.V]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5030918
Megaraptor;5030918']Stalin was a mass murderer who killed even more people than Hitler, but Stalin didn't try to exterminate all Germans the way Hitler planned to exterminate all Russians.


Hey now all it wasn't all that bad Hitler and co were going to keep 20% of the population around as slaves. :roll:


And for the record he was planning to exterminate more then just Russians.

[Russianlynxy]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5030918
Hey now all it wasn't all that bad Hitler and co were going to keep 20% of the population around as slaves. :roll:


Land is useless without a workforce. There were plenty of examples where occupying Nazis were not allowing people to flee East as refugees.

[Kilgor]

The Goal of Barbarossa was never complete extermination. It was the crushing of "Jewish communism" and capture of land and resources up to the AA line. The population could either become slaves, die, or flee to the east in land that Germany did not see as desirable.

[Mastermind]

The Goal of Barbarossa was never complete extermination. It was the crushing of "Jewish communism" and capture of land and resources up to the AA line. The population could either become slaves, die, or flee to the east in land that Germany did not see as desirable.


I think Hitler was determined to simply destroy the Soviet union, no matter what...he was not that good of a thinker...he was a reactionary. He simply saw Stalin as a serious threat, and reacted. Certainly, to be sure, he was deathly afraid of Communism since it had been the only really serious threat to him and his party. The absolute power of Stalin was the very same power Hitler weilded and so was seen as Hitler as a very capable threat. Stalin, on the otherhand, deeply feared the German war machine...also understanding the power of the despot behind it. But, as for any practical, organized goals behind Barbarossa...I doubt Hitler himself even understood where he was going with it. He was simply striking out. I believe this based on the arbitrary conduct of the German offensive. Hitler was reacting out of fear and grasping at every short range opportunity. His insane infatuation with Stalingrad, his lunatic changing of battle plans, his utterly stupid assault on Moscow....it all smacks of a guy who was not very well put together and completely out of his league in military affairs.

[sgt_G]

I remember somewhere ol Sheckelgruber actually wanted England's help but I think that was a fanboy rumor...

[Russianlynxy]

I remember somewhere ol Sheckelgruber actually wanted England's help but I think that was a fanboy rumor...

It wasn't. Hitler spared British forces in Belgium from decimation and some claim his Operation Sea Lion was little more than a show of force before Great Britain to eventually submit it into an allience (go figure). It's also a well known fact Hitler admired the British Empire and of course the whole Anglo-Saxon race and all that crap...

Ironically enough, there were plenty Nazi sympathizers in Britain as well (Chamberlain probably the most notable, and to some extent Churchill). Well, kind of... lets just say he hated Russia more.

Let's just say, if Hitler was assassinated, and a less image-tarnishing figure came to power in Germany - our Western Allies would turn their backs on the USSR in a snap. Russia would probably be little more than a shattered mass of British/German domains and a few independent states. We would have been fu*ked.

[sgt_G]

ah thank you sir!

correction...Spasiba (did i say that right?)

[khalifah]

Two. I think we had a moral duty to put a stop to the extermination camps as soon as possible.

AFAIK, the "final solution" was not implimented till either '41-'42. By then the future of the Reich seemd less certian than say in '39.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
therefore, captured Euro Jews in German occupied territories were cattled then deported with only their lives if lucky. (id like someone to verify this though)
......................


with that said, Poland was still an ally of the UK, therefore i belive the UK had the moral obligation to bring the Polish back to Poland. However intervening in a fight between 2 of the 3 biggest evils of the war does not sound like a smart thing to do, therefore i would hold back the troops and wait till either Germany is in shambles, OR the Germans are on Moscows doorstep.

one thing to think about though is the industrial capacity of the Germans/Soviets at the time, ive got no evidence to back it up, but i belive the Russians and the Germans were not capable of mustering their industries/troops in the early years of the war as oppose to what we see in '45.
with that said, Wold Germany be able to fend off the Russians in '39? Barberrosa(sp) was a plan to shut down the USSR, and to get a hold of the oil fields SW(Georgia?) of Moscow so that hitler may have a freshly lubed army for wherever he wishes to go next.


Toying with history like this results in a fruitless mind game that has no answers….just idle speculations.

well said Mastermind :)

[Kilgor]

(Chamberlain probably the most notable, and to some extent Churchill). .

care to backup that bullsh1t ?

Speaking in the House of Commons in 1937, Churchill said "I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and Nazism, I would choose communism".[109]

from wiki

[T-5 Killer]

Actually, Germans should be grateful to Red Army for putting them down just in time, to prevent British from using anthrax on Berlin and before Americans could use nuclear weapons on European theater.

Really? Was there everplans for the English to use Anthrax? I could see the US using a nuke on Berlin. So what about Mass rape of German women by the Red Army from '44 to '45?

[gaijinsamurai]

AFAIK, the "final solution" was not implimented till either '41-'42. By then the future of the Reich seemd less certian than say in '39.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
therefore, captured Euro Jews in German occupied territories were cattled then deported with only their lives if lucky. (id like someone to verify this though)
:)

That's what I get for responding to a post I've read after not getting any sleep the night before. For some dumb reason, I was under the impression that this scenario was taking place after the USSR had expelled the Germans from Poland late in the war. Shows that posing under sleep depravation is just as bad as posting while under the influence of intoxicants!

[Robert.V]

The Goal of Barbarossa was never complete extermination. It was the crushing of "Jewish communism" and capture of land and resources up to the AA line. The population could either become slaves, die, or flee to the east in land that Germany did not see as desirable.

You make it sound as if they had a choice. And i'm not even going to point out so many other things that are wrong with your post.


Christ.

[Kilgor]

You make it sound as if they had a choice. And i'm not even going to point out so many other things that are wrong with your post.


Christ.

Go right ahead.

[Domen]

The one thing I do not like is the specific form the question is posed: "Give Nazi Germany/Hitler a chance or fight the original war". How about "give Germany a chance" instead? Contrary to what many seem to believe, Germans are not, in their most natural state of being Nazis, nor are Nazis necessarily Germans. In fact, the Nationalsocialists ruled Germany for a mere six years before "WWII broke out", all in all the Dark Age under Adolf the Ugly lasted for only twelve years.


Have you ever wondered what exactly is the reason why the "1000 years Reich" lasted only for 12 years ??? :lol:

[shadowsrider]

Do you really think that UK and France would do anything with the mentality of leaders of the time?
They had a chance to do something in September 1939, so when Soviet Union would enter the war they would be even more scared.
Stalin would hide his intentions and declare friendship towards Western powers, they would believe him and help to crush Germany.
After that Stalin would play his next card.

[Antey]

Really? Was there everplans for the English to use Anthrax? I could see the US using a nuke on Berlin.

There was British test on some inhabited island in order to validate this plan.


So what about Mass rape of German women by the Red Army from '44 to '45?

What about it ? Indeed, crime is crime, yet they have only their parents to blame for it - if you decide to kick tiger's ass, you'd better have a way to deal with it's teeth. Germans didn't, but no sane person is going to loose sleep over it, considering WHO started the WAR and WHAT THEY HAD DONE in the process. At least they survived - I assume, you assume that they would of course prefer do die honorably in allied bombing ? Or in starvation bunker ? Or having "experiments" performed on them ? At least, there were no pseudo-medical experiments run on them, like Germans used to perform on massive scale with their POWs and selected civilians (tens of thousands of polish girls alone). By my thinking, they should praise Allies and USSR as well for their later confrontation, and not applying "final solution" to Germans themselves altogether (such ideas were voiced after WWI, when some people suggested either sterilization of entire nation or turning them into all-agricultural economy). In that case, Soviets could easily put Germans in trains, tranport into Sibera and use to colonize that area (killing half of them in the process)
BTW:
- it wasn't any particular treatment by Red Army - they did the same all the way west
- what's so different between rape by Red Army and enforced *** for food later with Allied soldier ?

Not many years ago, I saw a _german_ document on pre-War years in Germany. Elderly lady was recalling with eyes wet and smile how erotic and exciting feeling fuhrer drove in her and her female adolescent friends... :/

[Eeobroht87]

What about it ? Indeed, crime is crime, yet they have only their parents to blame for it - if you decide to kick tiger's ass, you'd better have a way to deal with it's teeth. Germans didn't, but no sane person is going to loose sleep over it, considering WHO started the WAR and WHAT THEY HAD DONE in the process. At least they survived - I assume, you assume that they would of course prefer do die honorably in allied bombing ? Or in starvation bunker ? Or having "experiments" performed on them ?
Many didn't. An estimated two million German civilian women were raped to death or committed suicide after being raped by Soviet army personnel. And it still doesn't excuse the gross violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions which the Soviet Union had committed itself to. Regardless of who you're fighting, only cowards and war criminals take it out on civilians. In World War II, virtually all involved parties made themselves guilty of war crimes to a greater or lesser extent, whether it was the acts of relatively few individuals or systematic conduct.


In that case, Soviets could easily put Germans in trains, tranport into Sibera and use to colonize that area (killing half of them in the process)
A few million Germans were. Mostly prisoners of war, granted, but they still were put on trains and transported to Siberia. Most of those who survived weren't released until after 1953, when Josef Stalin died, and quite a few -- scientists and achademics mostly, used to help Stalin and his successors develop and build missiles and nuclear bombs -- were kept in the Soviet Union until they died of old age. Of those prisoners of war, almost two thirds died in gulags in Siberia.

[Hast2]

Many didn't. An estimated two million German civilian women were raped to death or committed suicide after being raped by Soviet army personnel. And it still doesn't excuse the gross violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions which the Soviet Union had committed itself to. Regardless of who you're fighting, only cowards and war criminals take it out on civilians. In World War II, virtually all involved parties made themselves guilty of war crimes to a greater or lesser extent, whether it was the acts of relatively few individuals or systematic conduct.

BS. Considering many Soviet field commanders punished soldiers for rape and "raping to death" claim is just ridiculous, please present your sources. If it's wiki or some unknown site - don't bother.

It's easy siting in a chair to talk about "Geneva and Hague Conventions" on the interests. And from Norway, no less... Very active participant of WW2 and one of the greatest victims... Anyway. Atrocities on the Eastern Front were of such scale, Stalin couldn't even bother with propaganda about "evil German race". Many were deeply traumatized for the rest of their lives, many just cracked. Basically, war was all about Revenge and considering all this Red Army was quite civil. I repeat - considering the context.



A few million Germans were. Mostly prisoners of war, granted, but they still were put on trains and transported to Siberia. Most of those who survived weren't released until after 1953, when Josef Stalin died, and quite a few -- scientists and achademics mostly, used to help Stalin and his successors develop and build missiles and nuclear bombs -- were kept in the Soviet Union until they died of old age. Of those prisoners of war, almost two thirds died in gulags in Siberia.They did not just sit there - in a way or another they helped to rebuild the country they destroyed(even if they haven't committed any war crimes). Someone should have pay.

[Hast2]

P.S And don't forget how many criminals, liberated to fight in the war, RA had.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Wow, did I just read a defense of slavery and mass rape on MP.net?

[Hast2]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5039129
Megaraptor;5039129']Wow, did I just read a defense of slavery and mass rape on MP.net?

I didn't defend anything. I just presented the facts :

1. Despite what Germans did on the Eastern Front and considering how many men(and "quality" of particular men...) Red army had, it could be much worse.

2. German prisoners weren't just sent to Gulags, they have worked. I didn't say i approve or disapprove.

So, Wow, you didn't.

[Domen]

Regardless of who you're fighting, only cowards and war criminals take it out on civilians.


Wehrmacht (not only Waffen SS and not Einsatzgruppen) started to commit crimes on civilians yet on 01.09.1939 and continued until 1945.



And it still doesn't excuse the gross violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions which the Soviet Union had committed itself to.


The Soviet Union did not ratify the Geneva and Hague Conventions before WW2 so you can't say that it violated them.

If it comes to deporting people to Siberia - it was the Germans who first wanted and planned to deport some 30,000,000 Russians to Siberia and colonize everything west of Asia. If it comes to reasons of Russian behaviour in Germany in 1945, there are some well-known reasons.

For example in 1945 in Soviet 242. Inf.Rgt. (which was well understrength, like most units, and numbered no more than 1000 - 1500 men and maybe even fewer) there were 158 soldiers whose entire families were murdered or tortured by the Germans, 56 soldiers whose families were deported to forced labour in Germany and 445 soldiers who knew about destruction of their houses and their entire property by the Germans - so over 50% of all soldiers of 242. Inf.Rgt. had very strong personal reasons to hate every German. And in other Soviet units situation was very similar.

I'm not surprised that they wanted revenge, especially that the Communist Party propaganda was encouraging them to take it.

Source of these numbers is Christopher Duffy, "Red Storm on the Reich" (chapter about German civilians in 1945).

[Abyr]

'm not surprised that they wanted revenge, especially that the Communist Party propaganda was encouraging them to take it.

"Communist party propaganda" was encouraging them to take revenge on Germans in the end of war, really? Can you please provide your sources - to documents? They can be in Russian or English, it doesn't mater.

Because what I've heard and read is that they were agitating to differiate between Germans and Nazies.
See "Ilya Orenburg uproshaet" / "Ilya Orenburg is simplifying" article for example.

http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/GFA.HTM

[Mastermind]

Discussing morality in a war of totality is not a particularly fruitful exercise. Morality has nothing to do with such a war. War makes people insane. What life is during war is not at all what life is after or before. Rape of German women was certainly a crime. But, so was it a crime for German youths to go around capturing any seemingly able bodied man who they deemed 'deserter" and hanging them in the last days of Berlin, etc.

Let’s don’t fall into the trap of justifying one crime with another. But, try to imagine the mass mind set of the people involved and what made them devolve into the animalistic creatures they were at the time.

If you have done a reasonably good study of the war between Germany and the SU, you will discover from the very beginning of the invasion by Germany unspeakable atrocities. In the first two weeks, hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers, many of them only 17 years old, taken to ditches and slaughtered like diseased sheep. Fifty thousand men at a time were surrounded by barbed wire and then left to starve to death. Their bodies were then bull dozed into massive trenches (these mass graves continue to be discovered to this very day). As the German army swept it's way to the east, thousands of villages were taken. Women and children were rounded up for blood resources, not just for a pint or two...they were bled to death by German medical personnel for their blood to be given to wounded German troops. In winter, the Germans were not prepared. Their insane leader had believed the troops would fight harder to end the war before winter if they were not given winter clothing. so, Russians were stripped of their winter clothing. Entire villages and towns were ransacked for every last kernel of corn and wheat. German troops would take over homes and turn the families, less their winter clothing, out into the snow at -10 and even 20 deg C. This was a death sentence in those regions. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately killed by the Germans by starvation or by freezing to death. To this day, no one is sure how many Russians (soviet Union) civilians were killed by the Germans and their allies. but, conservative estimates are as low as 12 million, while the war era Soviets claimed 40 million.

In the battles around Moscow and particularly at Stalingrad, the atrocities escalated to acts of abject hellish barbarity. Both sides chose to fight a battle to the death, no matter what. This led to the complete destruction of men’s souls and to even mention a thing like morality as applied to these circumstances is ridiculous.

Many of the Russian soldiers who survived these desperate battles were part of the armies that swept into Germany in 1945. These veterans had not suddenly been infused with mass doses of new morality. Their witness, told to their comrades over the hard fighting back to the west and the sights of German atrocities as the soviet troops reclaimed their land, burned a hole straight through the hearts of these men. Quite frankly, I have trouble understanding the actual "restraint" these men used when they finally had the German homeland in their grasps. To have raped a hundred thousand German women, or half a million, was not an act that would have satisfied many who had gone through what these people went through in their struggle to defeat the German beasts.

Germany is fortunate there was not a policy of complete eradication of Germany, Germans and all things German. At the Tehran Conference, Stalin offered a toast at a dinner one night. Although the news papers of the day failed to report it at the time, this is what witnesses describe of the toast;

"I drink to our unity in dispatching the Germans as fast as we catch them...all of them, and there must be quite a few of them. When we do, we should execute 50,000 Wehrmacht officers to destroy the German military for good!"

At this Churchill stood up and declared that the British people would never "stand for such mass murder". No one should be shot without a proper trial.

he then walked out of the dining hall. However, Staling quickly stepped forward and caught up with Churchill, placing both hands on Churchill's shoulders, laughed and claimed that he was only joking and then cajoled the Prime Minister into returning to the table.

(From "Stalingrad" by Anthony Beevor)

Now, if this is an indication of Stalin's thinking at the time, it is actually, in my estimation, a miracle the Soviet troops were limited to just rape and pillaging knick-knacks. How Germany got off so lightly is a miracle when the reality is compared to the dark thoughts that must have pervaded a great many minds, not only Stalin's.

[Hast2]

Discussing morality in a war of totality is not a particularly fruitful exercise. Morality has nothing to do with such a war. War makes people insane. What life is during war is not at all what life is after or before. Rape of German women was certainly a crime. But, so was it a crime for German youths to go around capturing any seemingly able bodied man who they deemed 'deserter" and hanging them in the last days of Berlin, etc.

Let’s don’t fall into the trap of justifying one crime with another. But, try to imagine the mass mind set of the people involved and what made them devolve into the animalistic creatures they were at the time.

If you have done a reasonably good study of the war between Germany and the SU, you will discover from the very beginning of the invasion by Germany unspeakable atrocities. In the first two weeks, hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers, many of them only 17 years old, taken to ditches and slaughtered like diseased sheep. Fifty thousand men at a time were surrounded by barbed wire and then left to starve to death. Their bodies were then bull dozed into massive trenches (these mass graves continue to be discovered to this very day). As the German army swept it's way to the east, thousands of villages were taken. Women and children were rounded up for blood resources, not just for a pint or two...they were bled to death by German medical personnel for their blood to be given to wounded German troops. In winter, the Germans were not prepared. Their insane leader had believed the troops would fight harder to end the war before winter if they were not given winter clothing. so, Russians were stripped of their winter clothing. Entire villages and towns were ransacked for every last kernel of corn and wheat. German troops would take over homes and turn the families, less their winter clothing, out into the snow at -10 and even 20 deg C. This was a death sentence in those regions. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately killed by the Germans by starvation or by freezing to death. To this day, no one is sure how many Russians (soviet Union) civilians were killed by the Germans and their allies. but, conservative estimates are as low as 12 million, while the war era Soviets claimed 40 million.

In the battles around Moscow and particularly at Stalingrad, the atrocities escalated to acts of abject hellish barbarity. Both sides chose to fight a battle to the death, no matter what. This led to the complete destruction of men’s souls and to even mention a thing like morality as applied to these circumstances is ridiculous.

Many of the Russian soldiers who survived these desperate battles were part of the armies that swept into Germany in 1945. These veterans had not suddenly been infused with mass doses of new morality. Their witness, told to their comrades over the hard fighting back to the west and the sights of German atrocities as the soviet troops reclaimed their land, burned a hole straight through the hearts of these men. Quite frankly, I have trouble understanding the actual "restraint" these men used when they finally had the German homeland in their grasps. To have raped a hundred thousand German women, or half a million, was not an act that would have satisfied many who had gone through what these people went through in their struggle to defeat the German beasts.

Germany is fortunate there was not a policy of complete eradication of Germany, Germans and all things German. At the Tehran Conference, Stalin offered a toast at a dinner one night. Although the news papers of the day failed to report it at the time, this is what witnesses describe of the toast;

"I drink to our unity in dispatching the Germans as fast as we catch them...all of them, and there must be quite a few of them. When we do, we should execute 50,000 Wehrmacht officers to destroy the German military for good!"

At this Churchill stood up and declared that the British people would never "stand for such mass murder". No one should be shot without a proper trial.

he then walked out of the dining hall. However, Staling quickly stepped forward and caught up with Churchill, placing both hands on Churchill's shoulders, laughed and claimed that he was only joking and then cajoled the Prime Minister into returning to the table.

(From "Stalingrad" by Anthony Beevor)

Now, if this is an indication of Stalin's thinking at the time, it is actually, in my estimation, a miracle the Soviet troops were limited to just rape and pillaging knick-knacks. How Germany got off so lightly is a miracle when the reality is compared to the dark thoughts that must have pervaded a great many minds, not only Stalin's.

Thank you, sir, for your posts.


How Germany got off so lightly is a miracle when the reality is compared to the dark thoughts that must have pervaded a great many minds, not only Stalin's.

I remember reading "Hate just boiled in me, but when we finally arrived in Germany and i saw frightened to death German women and kids, it's just gone". Not (c)

[Kilgor]

- I assume, you assume that they would of course prefer do die honorably in allied bombing ?/

Sometimes I wonder where the intelligence in people is.

What do you think happened to these people when the Soviets where shelling the crap out of berlin ?

[Abyr]

Sometimes I wonder where the intelligence in people is.

What do you think happened to these people when the Soviets where shelling the crap out of berlin ?

There's a quote of German civilian who experienced both about that, see 1:50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Mrl-hVvw8

[Robert.V]

Apocalypse The Second World War has alot of Bull**** and recycled myths in it. So hardly a credible source.

[Hast2]

Apocalypse The Second World War has alot of Bull**** and recycled myths in it. So hardly a credible source.

But "Apocalypse in Berlin" is quite good :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZF3UORiqr4&feature=related

[Domen]

"Communist party propaganda" was encouraging them to take revenge on Germans in the end of war, really? Can you please provide your sources - to documents? They can be in Russian or English, it doesn't mater.


Christopher Duffy, "Red Storm on the Reich", chapter (part) VI - everything's there.


Apocalypse The Second World War has alot of Bull**** and recycled myths in it. So hardly a credible source.

I haven't watched it yet but - just out of curiosity - what recycled myths, for example?

[Kilgor]

Red Army Soldiers had been conditioned to the most extreme levels of discipline and control, and so called "crimes" resulted in a bullet or penal battalion. To they they had no control over raping troops is puzzling.

It was simply not a issue to stop the rapes at first. As famously quoted by stalin.

"Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"

Morality accounted for little, it was only after the issue began seriously damaging the Communist Party Image was it clamped down on.

[TakeIt]

A pity, that discussion thanks to usual suspects turned to another fvckfest around Soviet troops, as usual coupled with bland ignorance and preoccupation.

In a given Duffy's book nothing specific on Soviet propaganda is written. He simply recycled the old tales about Erenburg's article spiced with general tales of the witnesses, traitors btw. However he managed to add his own mistakes: he mixed two known articles by Erenburg, "Kill" from July 1942 and "Enough" from April 1945, and of course threw Stalin in the mix to create a specific image. Occasional mistakes or deliberate BS? Considering that articles from 1942 were never reprinted and Erenburg's articles were not secret (and he himself was relatively widely known in the West(especially after Stalin's death) and Koriakov was the man "truly destined to bring the True Russia, to tell the West the solemn truth about unholy pseudo-Russia, led by infidelity" - intention is obvious. Mistakes are glaring and are really hard to relate to such renown military historian. Yet Beevor, Hoffman and others proved this is not an exeption or a standalone case

BTW, Erenburg's own words from April 1945(just a few days before the "Enough") , an answer to the letter asking why he not write as fiery and strongly as before: "I have not written about mercy to the Germans. This is not true. I wrote about the fact that we can not kill children and women. That's the truth. I wrote that we should not be raping German women. This i wrote. In March 1945 i wrote the same thing as in March 1942, but then in front of us were only German soldiers, and now before us German children. In Victory we must remain the Soviet people. You may resent my articles, it is your right, but do not reproach me that I changed - i wrote the same in 1942 "we do not crave vengeance, but justice". That is all."

Stalin himself, Stavka or the Command stuff never encouraged any rapes or barbaric behavior. Quite the contrary, which is known to anyone who is indeed interested in history.

The first official comments on relations with german population were published in 1942, when German armies were literally on the Moscow borders. Specifically order N55 from February 1942, signed by Stalin, stated that goal of the Red Army is not an eradication of German population and country, that "It would be ridiculous to identify Hitler's clique with the German people, with the Germanic state. History shows that Hitlers come and go, but Germany's people and the State remains","Might of the Red Army lies in the fact that it not harbores racial hatred towards other nations, German included". The first order against pillaging as an "alien to the spirit of the Red Army and should not take place in it" came in November 1941.

A quote, that happened to be so mindlessly repeated on every even remote occasion came from M.Djilas's "Conversations with Stalin" and was voiced in winter 44/45 on a "banquet and the presentation that can be found only in Shakespeare's dramas" during Yugo delegation visit to Moscow, as a responce to author's critique of the Autumn 1944 events in Yugoslavia and a tone in which Moscow described actions of Yugoslavian comminists. To use it to describe the general or official attitude towards pillaging and rape is senseless, since soldiers and officers were punished for it with up to the death sentence.

[Kilgor]

A quote, that happened to be so mindlessly repeated on every even remote occasion came from M.Djilas's "Conversations with Stalin" and was voiced in winter 44/45 on a "banquet and the presentation that can be found only in Shakespeare's dramas" during Yugo delegation visit to Moscow, as a responce to author's critique of the Autumn 1944 events in Yugoslavia and a tone in which Moscow described actions of Yugoslavian comminists. To use it to describe the general or official attitude towards pillaging and rape is senseless, since soldiers and officers were punished for it with up to the death sentence.

Obviously the rapes were stopped. That was clearly stated in my post above when they hurt the communist brand name. The fact they happened so widely, for as long as they did and in a army used to brutal and unquestioning discipline suggests apathy at the highest levels. Hence Stalin's comment.

No one is questioning there was a crackdown later on.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Ehrenburg in 1942:


"Here are excerpts from three letters found on dead Germans. Inspector Reinhardt wrote to Lieutenant Otto Schirach: "[...] I have found six Russians in the area. They last far longer than Frenchmen. Only one of them has died. [...] Their upkeep costs nothing and we must not tolerate that these animals, whose children are possibly killing our children right now, get to eat German bread. Yesterday I whipped lightly two Russian beasts who secretly drunk up skim milk meant for pigs [...]" A certain Otto Essmann wrote to Lieutenant Helmut Wiegand: "We now have some Russian prisoners of war. These fellows feed on worms by the airstrip and throw themselves at buckets of dirty water. I have seen them eating weeds. It is hard to believe that these are human beings..." Slavers - they would like to enslave our people. They take some Russians home, mistreat them, make them lose their wits by hunger, to the point that they eat grass and worms, and then a repulsive German with a stinking cigar can philosophise: "Are these perhaps human beings?" We know everything. We remember everything. We have understood: Germans are not human beings. Henceforth the word German means to us the most terrible curse. From now on the word German will trigger your rifle. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day. If you think that that instead of you, the man next to you will kill him, you have not understood the threat. If you do not kill the German, he will kill you. If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German before combat. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days; do not count miles. Count only the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the German - this is your old mother's prayer. Kill the German - this is what your children beseech you to do. Kill the German - this is the cry of your Russian earth. Do not waver. Do not let up. Kill."

The incidents of mass rape, massacre and wanton killing of German civilians by Soviet troops in Silesia, Prussia and other parts of eastern Germany and Poland are well documented. Attempting to deny them is morally despicable.

[Russianlynxy]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5043067
Megaraptor;5043067']Ehrenburg in 1942:
The incidents of mass rape, massacre and wanton killing of German civilians by Soviet troops in Silesia, Prussia and other parts of eastern Germany and Poland are well documented. Attempting to deny them is morally despicable.

We shall not even go in to the atrocities Germans, and especially their allies (particularly Romanians and Hungarians) did on Russian and Ukrainian territories... This also includes mass rape, food deprivation (to feed advancing army), forced labor, mass executions (hangings and lynchings among favorite). We all know where the roots stem from. Unfortunately, this is war.

Also. I am appalled by the number of "give Nazi Germany a chance" responses and votes. Some of you guys really need a doctor...

[Kilgor]

Also. I am appalled by the number of "give Nazi Germany a chance" responses and votes. Some of you guys really need a doctor...

Once again, anti soviet does not equal pro German.

There were no good guys on the Eastern Front. The most ideal outcome would have been the two monstrously barbaric systems of Stalinism and Nazism grounding each other down to collapse.

[TakeIt]

Once again, anti soviet does not equal pro German. When it comes to WW2 usually it does. This is especially obvious during such discussions, where causes are simply omitted or twisted in a given fashion. Look at Megaraptor's post - an obvious lack of understanding. Why for example such memoirs are never mentioned along with ones about supposed rapes or murders: "Wild stories of brutality arise from magnification and distortion of individual instances", "One woman, who told me the most hair-raising tales of Russian brutality in Prague was forced in the end to admit that the only evidence she had seen with her own eyes was drunken Russian officers firing pistols into the air or shooting at bottles"? This example clearly shows the value of folk-tales, yet they are now presented as the ultimate revelation and undisputed truth. If you can be at least in some way impartial(which i doubtl, of course) you may notice that stories about mass rapes are following the same pattern - single cases generalising into monstrosity. For example the initial basis for the Berlin rapes is based on two pages on pregnancies and abortions if i remember correctly, with further extrapolation onto the whole city(BeFreier und Befreite, 1992) . Note that i'm not discussing Allied actions(50 million condoms monthly?).


There were no good guys on the Eastern Front. I'd like to see you saying that on the Red Square during next Victory day in front of the survivng vets.

Also, i can't understand, and probably never be able to, how even a million willing or unwilling rape victims are more important that 20 million dead only. Yet it seems for some people they are.

[Kilgor]

Once again, both regimes were appalling and this whole Idea of "us or them" is just moral cowardice.

The little daughter’s on the mattress,
Dead. How many have been on it
A platoon, a company perhaps?
A girl’s been turned into a woman,
A woman turned into a corpse.
It's all come down to simple phrases:
Do not forget! Do not forgive!
Blood for blood! A tooth for a tooth!

Solzhenitsyn


Horrifying things are happening to German women. An educated German whose wife has received 'new visitors' - Red Army soldiers - is explaining with expressive gestures and broken Russian words, that she has already been raped by ten men today. The lady is present...

Women's screams are heard from open windows...

A story about a breast-feeding mother who was being raped in a barn...the hungry baby was crying the whole time.

Grossman


So were arguably the two best known soviet writers lying too ?

[TakeIt]

Once again, both regimes were appalling and this whole Idea of "us or them" is just moral cowardice. BS.


So were arguably the two best known soviet writers lying too ? It seems you have some kind of mental block present. Did you missed that "Wild stories of brutality arise from magnification and distortion of individual instances" comment i wrote earlier? That was a witness too. Or do you prefer only comfortable, agenda-related witness records? Wait, i already know the answer. Regarding authors - you're quoted fiction, i don't know what kind of responce you expected.

[Mastermind]

I have a hard time imagining the topic is debatable here, in this forum of supposedly military minded individuals. It is not arguable that the Soviet soldiers committed mass rapes of German - and other nationalities- women. Yes, it must be conceded that atrocities were committed! Is it worth arguing the quality and number of these atrocities? Is it arguable that the Nazi soldiers committed unspeakable acts of brutality in the east? No! They did these things. The record of that war is not a question. If it becomes a question then the door is open to one day deny it happened. This is exactly what the holocaust deniers have done. They try to reduce the record of history to a matter of debate then insist they have won the debate and then inject that falsehood into history! That is not acceptable to anyone who has a sense of humanity.

Has anyone a doubt at all that the war was one of such barbarity that human beings were mentally reduced to the level of beasts? Does anyone who has not lived war any understanding of what it means for a man to become a beast by the degradations of war? Do you know it is a form of insanity? We have mass murderers among us all the time. People constantly argue the case for them that they were merely insane. That is utter truth. But, it doesn’t make their crimes excusable. Nor does the case for the soldier who has been subjected to unspeakable horrors for sometimes years become explainable by people sitting in nice comfortable homes with full bellies and children snug in their beds at night.

You simply do not have the ability…or for that matter, the right, to judge the actions of these people. War murders the soul of men. Sometimes, this is a permanent condition. Sometimes it is temporary, existing only in the survivor’s night mares for the rest of his life. We argue that what they did was wrong…on either side in any land. And, yes, By God, it truly was wrong. But, would it still be wrong when you have personally seen hundreds of villagers hanging from telephone poles by their necks…women, old men and kids? How about the soldier who has seen his friends laying disemboweled in a ditch…murdered as prisoners instead of humanely treated as necessary by the rules of humanity? There are thousands of horrors for the soldiers to see and experience. Such things can’t just be shelved into a can on a shelf in the mind. Human beings have feelings and so they also have anger that can not be quenched. Revenge is a terrible thing and it does not satisfy or bring back the dead or stop the pain. But, it is a very real thing and if any people had deserved revenge, it truly was the Germans. Think of the Japanese and the pure horror they visited on civilians and soldiers alike? I can not even finish the book, Rape of Nanking…I just have a head too full already of such atrocities. But, if you doubt there is a need for an entire people to suffer a total wrath of God, read it for your own edification.

It is not the men…for they are truly helpless in full scope of war and what it does. It is not even the morality. Germans are a civilized people…so are Russians and so are Japanese. They love their children, they nurture their mothers and fathers like anyone. They turn away in dismay when they see a child get injured. Yet, let them crawl in the gore of war for a few months, or years and see how they are then. Let them be brutalized, with never a let up. Let them be exposed to intestine ripping, face mauling shell fire. Let them be forced to charge into machine guns and artillery. Let them freeze for weeks at a time with nothing to eat but stale crusts and moldy salt pork. Let them watch their own toes fall off one by one from frost bite. Let them live with their tongues swollen from thirst. Let them watch their friends die slowly of gangrene, or bleed to death for lack of proper medical attention. Let them watch a friend stagger along a trench with half his brains smeared down his chest. Let them hold their friend’s hand while he slowly dies, a large shell splinter having ripped his face off, his eyeballs hanging from their sockets, blood frothing from some unseen gasping hole. Let them do that for day after day and month after month with no hope of it ever ending in anything but death or maiming….ask them then what is right and what is wrong.

Sit behind your nice cozy desk with a refreshing tea at your hand, and tap out to the ether what is right and what is wrong for them.

You have not got a fking clue….and you quite frankly, sound like a damn fool when you try to moralize on their circumstance. You demean their very existence by questioning that they ever had become so brutalized that they thought cruelty to their enemy was the right thing to do. You sound like an idiot to try to convince others that their actions were ‘incorrect’ or ‘violated the Geneva convention’ or ‘were crimes against humanity’…all utter and complete nonsense. Such high ideals are only for the casual “Club members” and the “Gentlemen of the court”. Soldiers of horror are not aware such things exist. They have no meaning at all in Hell.

[Holycrusader]

Great post Mastermind...

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5043067

We shall not even go in to the atrocities Germans, and especially their allies (particularly Romanians and Hungarians) did on Russian and Ukrainian territories...

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html

[Russianlynxy]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5044040
Megaraptor;5044040']http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html

yes go on to educate me on the history of my own lands.. nice

[Hast2]

Megaraptor is kinda hard, since no one here is denying rapes and murders(numbers are debatable though)... I guess it comes with subjectivity and fanaticism.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5044040

yes go on to educate me on the history of my own lands.. nice

I'm just educating you in how to make a logical argument. ;)

[Antey]

Many didn't. An estimated two million German civilian women were raped to death or committed suicide after being raped by Soviet army personnel. And it still doesn't excuse the gross violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions which the Soviet Union had committed itself to.

1. Sure, it doesn't excuse - but it more than explains.
2. As it was explained to you, SU haven't violated the Conventions, as it wasn't side of them. Germans, for their part, were. And really, they didn't bother.

Point is - it's another bitching about "poor Germany and poor Germans collectively assaulted by entire world". Fact is that Germany and Germans initiated entirely baseless hostilities and got away without any major consequences.

[Kilgor]

Point is - it's another bitching about "poor Germany and poor Germans collectively assaulted by entire world". Fact is that Germany and Germans initiated entirely baseless hostilities and got away without any major consequences.

Silly me, I always thought WW2 in Europe started with Joint agreement and attack on Poland. Amazing how some still can't accept that the Soviet Union was a belligerent nation before the GPW.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Point is - it's another bitching about "poor Germany and poor Germans collectively assaulted by entire world". Fact is that Germany and Germans initiated entirely baseless hostilities and got away without any major consequences.

You mean without major consequences like, say, having most of their cities leveled by the RAF, and then being occupied by foreign powers and having their leadership put on trial and many of them hanged for war crimes, and being divided into two nations for 45 years after the war?

Nope, no major consequences for Germany...

And yes, the USSR suffered a lot during the war. Despite this, the USSR entered the war as a third world backwater and exited as a superpower.

[TakeIt]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5044804
Megaraptor;5044804']You mean without major consequences like, say, having most of their cities leveled by the RAF, and then being occupied by foreign powers and having their leadership put on trial and many of them hanged for war crimes, and being divided into two nations for 45 years after the war? Nope, no major consequences for Germany... Considering the impact German actions left in Europe, it indeed got off easy.


And yes, the USSR suffered a lot during the war. Despite this, the USSR entered the war as a third world backwater and exited as a superpower. USSR inevitably would became one without the war, naturally. It wasn't thanks to the war, rather the commitment of majority of people, from the lowest criminals to the Stalin himself. There is absolutely no need to attach suffering to the status, especially considering that suffering itself never played any major role to foreign powers in their relations with SU, besides rhetorics.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5044804 Considering the impact German actions left in Europe, it indeed got off easy.

What more do you want? Morgenthau Plan? Complete genocide/removal of all Germans? I mean, you got that last one too in any land east of the Oder.

[TakeIt]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5044886
Megaraptor;5044886']What more do you want? Morgenthau Plan? Complete genocide/removal of all Germans? I mean, you got that last one too in any land east of the Oder. I don't want anything personally, simply stated the obvious.

[Gammelpreusse]

[WDW]Megaraptor;5044886 I don't want anything personally, simply stated the obvious.

Oh, but I'd like to hear that, too. Germans came off too lightly you said...so what should have happend in your mind? You gotta back such phrases up a bit, given their morale weight.

[Domen]

Stalin himself, Stavka or the Command stuff never encouraged any rapes or barbaric behavior. Quite the contrary, which is known to anyone who is indeed interested in history.


Maybe, I don't know, I'm not interested in this part of history - anyway some claim that rapes were pre-planned so who planned them?:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=2580

[Domen]

By the way - we are all faaaar away from the topic. This thread was about the Allies and the battle of Poland.

--------------------

Edit:



Complete genocide/removal of all Germans? I mean, you got that last one too in any land east of the Oder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_minority_in_Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Minority_(political_party)

[TakeIt]

some claim that rapes were pre-planned so who planned them? People also claim that they were abducted by aliens and experimented on.

[Russianlynxy]

Silly me, I always thought WW2 in Europe started with Joint agreement and attack on Poland. Amazing how some still can't accept that the Soviet Union was a belligerent nation before the GPW.

so it wasn't started with a join Polish and German attack on Czechoslovakia? I must be delusional...

[monolit]

I must be delusional...
Yes, apparently you are.

[Russianlynxy]

Yes, apparently you are.

care to counter that? Just because historians mark the beginning of WWII with the invasion of Poland, doesn't make it so. It started much earlier that that. Of course it's more politically expedient for some to think otherwise.

[Antey]

so it wasn't started with a join Polish and German attack on Czechoslovakia? I must be delusional...

You are, but don't worry - it's typical for place where you come from :) You also forgot Austria, by the way.
There was NO JOINT ATTACK by Poland and Germany, as there were no cavalary charging tanks etc.
- Chechoslovakia alone asked for Polish protection of teritory which they themselves forcefully and unlawfully annexed, to avoid putting that industry under German control.
Personally, I don't mourn Czechs, as they have not chosen to oppose Htiler, yet I don't cherish the idea either - as it was too similar to Soviet action against Poland not much later.

[Antey]

Megaraptor;5044804']You mean without major consequences like, say, having most of their cities leveled by the RAF, and then being occupied by foreign powers and having their leadership put on trial and many of them hanged for war crimes, and being divided into two nations for 45 years after the war?
Nope, no major consequences for Germany...
And yes, the USSR suffered a lot during the war. Despite this, the USSR entered the war as a third world backwater and exited as a superpower.

Yeah, and Marshall Plan was all about enslaving proud herrenvolk and demolishing their welfare state, right ? :)

But to the point:
- USSR wasn't third world blackwater before the war; it was already major power, despite being hampered by results of civil war and economic system implemented, as well as military buildup effort
- effects of Allied bombings to war effort were negligible and numer of victims is grossly overstaded by Germans (another whinning about barbaric Americans bombing peaceful German folk)
- yeah, hanging for war crimes... no ****.... terrible consequence
- you still don't understand; you are talking about events I am talking about results; Germany's relative position in Europe after war has only improved, unlike most of their neighbours and victims.

Germany leveled entire eastern Europe, created havoc in Western, commited mass murders, destroyed Europe's influence in world affairs and benefited form it in a long term.
And still Germans claim to be innocent victims of worldwide anti german barbaric conspirancy - and that's what should be countered.


care to counter that? Just because historians mark the beginning of WWII with the invasion of Poland, doesn't make it so. It started much earlier that that. Of course it's more politically expedient for some to think otherwise.

In the world ? Sure, the first hostilities were in Asia, in Korea, on Soviet eastern borders. Entirely true.
In Europe, although the seeds have been planted in WWI, the begining of open hostilities is invasion of Poland.
If you think Spain, then you should consider Vietnam beeing official USSR-USA war.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

- you still don't understand; you are talking about events I am talking about results; Germany's relative position in Europe after war has only improved, unlike most of their neighbours and victims.


I assume you're primarily talking about Poland, but Poland's loss of land and status is primarily the fault of the USSR, not Germany.

[Antey]

Megaraptor;5050159']I assume you're primarily talking about Poland, but Poland's loss of land and status is primarily the fault of the USSR, not Germany.

I AM TALKING ABOUT MILLIONS OF HUMAN LIVES, not some ****ty estate business !!!

... It's the Germans who started the war, it's the Germans who slaughtered 6 mln of Polish citizens and leveled entire Poland to the ground. True, USSR took some concessions of the "scrotched earth" and crippled nation, yet it was with approval of our beloved Western Allies. But the fact is - IT WAS ALL CONSEQUENCE OF GERMAN AGGRESSION AND GERMAN ATROCITIES COMMITED IN POLAND !!!
There are also - sadly - in Poland, people who force their vision of history in which Soviets did all the damage to otherwise prosperous country, forgetting that this country was ruined and handed over to Soviets by their beloved German protectors. Moreover, there are suggestions that Poland should have joint Hitlers fictional anti-communist crusade :|

And again, I realize that outside Poland, Germans killed in USSR number of people that equals half of entire pre-war Polish population also in horrific way. They crippled entire British Empire, which accounts for many of contemporary wars (India vs. Pakistan, Israel and neighbours, Iran vs. Iraq...).

Try to realize extent of damage, death, destruction and terror for which Germany and Germans are directly and indirectly responsible - and then ask yourself, is the fact that some minority of them was treated in the same way really reason to deny their deeds, their guilt and make them victims which deserve only pity. Does it nullify german crimes in any way ? Also remember, that allied so called "crimes" were never sanctioned by their official policy and supported by society and executed routinely by armed forces. Germans on the other hand were not ashamed to wage both military war with unavoidable collateral damage, but they applied criminal terror policy on country,nation and army wide level which was inspired, supported officially on country level. See the subtle difference ?

AGAIN - MY POINT IS THAT "LOGIC" THAT DICTATES THAT ANY DAMAGE TO GERMANY AND GERMANS SUFFERED BY THEM IN WAR THEY HAVE THEMSELVES INITIATED IS NO REASON TO NULLIFY AND DENY THAT VERY FACT OF WHAT GERMANS DID. AS TO THIS WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, THEY HAVE ONLY THEMSELVES TO BLAME.

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so it wasn't started with a join Polish and German attack on Czechoslovakia?



I thought it was German - Hungarian sneak attack.

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http://forteca.w.activ.pl/zaolzie.html

Google translation:

http://translate.google.pl/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fforteca.w.activ.pl%2Fzaolzie.html&sl=pl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8



Occupation of Zaolzie.
by Zbigniew Pruski (Lodz)
September 30, 1918, the Polish National Council for the Duchy of Cieszyn proclaimed extend their temporary authority and membership of the Polish Cieszyn Silesia. At the same time the Czechs, also forming their own state, came forward with claims to those areas relying on the historical rights of the Holy Crown. Wenceslas. Against this background, clashes in Fryštát several other villages. Conflict resolved temporarily by signing on November 5 agreement between the Polish and Czech National Council National National Committee in determining that the administrative districts of Poland are covered Bielsko and Cieszyn and Czech Frydecki. Regarding the district frysztackiego decisions are left to agreement between Warsaw and Prague. Already on January 23 Czech side demanded the withdrawal of Polish troops for the government. White, however, before the expiry of an ultimatum started shares of Czech military offensive. To January 27, Polish troops were forced to withdraw to the line flux - Dobromyśl - Ochaby - Skoczow - Ustroń. On 30 January the Czech Republic joined the army general attack on Skoczow, but with little of the strong resistance and incurring large losses, were forced to suspend further offensive operations. The next day included a cease-fire, and soon an agreement was signed in Paris on a new, temporary demarcation, the Czech side was left a large part of the districts of Cieszyn and frysztackiego and Karviná basin. On 26 February, the Czech army withdrew to the new demarcation line. In 1920, when Poland was faced with Soviet offensive, the Czech authorities have taken action to undermine the position of the Polish Silesia dispute. At the end of the command of three divisions of the Czech Republic committed to the possible use against Polish troops in action under the code name "Cieszyn". On 10 July at the Spa at the conference of the Entanty, Polish Prime Minister Wladyslaw Grabski, in exchange for a promise of assistance and brokering peace talks with the Soviet Union (which, incidentally, these discussions at this time did not intend to lead), has agreed to accept the order of the highest in the on Teschen. Following the verdict, which fell on July 28, large areas inhabited by the Polish population, were granted Czechoslovakia.
Construction of the Czech fortifications
Since the conclusion of a nonaggression pact in 1934 and the related approximation of the Polish-German Polish is included in the enemy countries, and therefore the Polish-Czechoslovak plan was incorporated into the fortification. The first plans for the spring of 1935 the Polish border security relative importance attached by placing them, for example by Austria, but later the implementation of the construction of these fortifications was postponed to the second half of the 40's. Only exception was the western section, which was to be made in advance. In the area of Cieszyn Silesia and north-western Slovakia was intended to reinforce the border with the Polish section of 90 km in length connecting to the only pride of the fortifications section Ostrava directed against the Germans. The remainder of the border guard were independent strongholds closing lines of communication. The task of these fortifications was primarily to protect the disputed territory Zaolzie and Orava, and guard lines of communication with Romania and the Soviet Union. Overall it was intended to build 94 heavy and 570 light commercial buildings, the total cost of their implementation was to reach 281 million crowns.
First, as mentioned, started construction of 65 km belt of fortifications along the river Olza from Bohumín Nydka Jablunkova to the task in addition to protection against the Polish attack, was to protect against a German attack on the Polish territory by the Ostrava Silesia. In this section of the work started in autumn 1937 and their break concreted 232 shelters LO wz. 37th This item was marked by a considerable depth, up to 1 km long and dense development. In the Cieszyn area shelters were deployed even in the four kicks, the Fryštát and south of Cieszyn 2-3 kicks, strengthening the least expanded at the mouth of the Oder and Olza the Třinec. In autumn 1938, the documentation prepared in 1917 with 32 heavy objects to strengthen and stretch the Bohumín Třinec. For their plantings intended to form a battalion of 1941, a fortress. In 1939, he was to be built part of "XXXIII-Jablunkov" which initially was mapped in autumn 1938, the commander of the Border Division 8, General Birula.
Lightweight shelters LO wz. 37, the so-called. "Řopiky", were designed at the end of 1936, as a typical property ranges fortifications. The lines of these objects form a continuous fires his side firewalls, objects in the latter lines were designed to support and complement the first line of the fires, often used in these shelters, and swept the top shooting. These shelters in the normal execution were resistant to fire 100 mm howitzers, and strengthened to fire 150 mm howitzers. In terms of construction and reinforcement, performed several types of shelters, the vast majority were still dwustrzelnicowe objects of type A (85%) and jednostrzelnicowe B (5%). Both were one-room shelters tradytorowymi shooting jacketed with a short hood. Folded entrance was protected by small arms firing range. Utilities were the LMC mod. 26 or HMG in from 7 / 24 and mod. 37 placed on a wooden carriage. The shelters dwustrzelnicowych cast consisted of seven men and four soldiers jednostrzelnicowych.
In the area of Cieszyn Silesia were also part of the section of the fortifications, "Moravian Ostrava," a subsection "Bohumín" along the border with Germany from the Apiary Kopytowa k / Antoszowic. The area occupied by Poland in 1938 was part of the section to the Oder, which carried four heavy bunkers. Fifth, a unique facility MO S-1 with a rotary turret machine guns, which was to be located on the Polish border on Olza, not performed because of protests by Polish authorities. The section was a strong defense division of the company, przegradzający three road and railway line. On the second line put in from four light objects. 37th However, on the right flank, along the Polish border, near the township Šunychl started at the end of 1937, construction of the so-called. "Záchytného hook on hand and Ola" (literally - the hook on the river cogging Olza), consisting of 9 buildings wz. 37 in two lines. This group was supposed to cover the wings of the defense before the lap section of the Ostrava through Polish territory. Section between the cast and Olza Oder was intended numbering 189 people a company (rota) 4 Borders (hraničářského) Regiment, commanded by Capt. s. bad luck. Václav curls.
Subsection "Bohumín" was designed as the first of the entire plan of fortifying the borders of Czechoslovakia, so there are clear influences of the French experience. Typical for them weapons is 4 cm (47 mm) has guns. wz. 36 (without conjugated HMG) and two heavy machine gun wz. 35 shooting in the walls of the building located at a wing of the line of fortifications. Objects characterized by a considerable size and a large volume of concrete which increased their exposure to enemy fire.
Unique among these objects was a shelter MO S-4, as one of two separate shelters in Czechoslovakia equipped with two bells and two domes. Such objects were only composed of groups of fortified buildings. Also interesting was a shelter MO S-5, which part of 'a' and 'b' were located on both sides of the embankment of railway track and then merged into the sidewalk.
identification of the fortifications by the Polish intelligence
Construction of Czechoslovak fortifications from the beginning, she was actively monitored by the Polish intelligence. In 1936, reported to have the intention to fortify the border with Poland from Cieszyn Silesia, a year later, intelligence sources transmit general, vague information about the first-built premises near Hulczyna (name used in the document, probably Hlučín). Access to these two-storey buildings were to be built with strong metal sheets and plates sliding sideways. The ceiling had kept the window about 75 cm2, and barred zaszklone thick glass, is also sliding. The building that was to be placed tanks. Over time, reports have become more concrete, and as February 24, 1938 are approximate size of the object: width 4 m, height 2 m, height of the lower tier (?) 3 m. April 8 report from the state are already built facilities in various localities, not only along the border with the Polish:
Bohumín seven large and 10 small
Koźmice 1 large and 3 small
Ai, 1 large and 2 small
Darkovičky 1 large and 7 small
Zabrech - Smolkov and hostice Wlke 7 large and 40 small
4 large Hlavnice
Hor. 2 large Beneąov
In addition, obtained information about the construction "of the underground factory in the town of Ai, presumably it was a group of fortified" Smolkov.
Meanwhile, intelligence sources provided information about the product in the steel mills Třinec shelters for machine guns, intended for the episode Kojkowice - Jablunkov. Likewise, in April was already known to the state of the construction of a line from the river Olza Petrovic to Cieszyn - 42 shelters. In May, in the paper for the Chief of General Staff General characteristics of shelters are:
large shelters - two towers, armored, and some for the department, 150 -200 m2 area, the walls - 1,5 m, ceilings - 1 m
small shelters - for HMG (after 2), the walls - up to 1 m, the dimensions of 4 x 2,5 m
Soon, May 25, the data were checked for small shelters: the depth of foundations 3 - 4 m, wall thickness: the side - 60 cm front - 80 - 100 cm, the ceiling - 120 cm, frame - 20 mm rods. Obstacles - rails, 6 rows of deep trenches, and 1.5 - 2 m integrated with slope. In May also reported on the state of construction on the Polish border in the region Frysztat 30 shelters. In early June interview reported on the section that supposedly Louky - Trinec shelters are built in the shape of bells, of which the upper part protrudes 1.5 to 2 m above the ground, intended for heavy machine guns. June 14, 1938 sentry Officer No. 1 in Krakow forwarded to the Division II Chief of Staff of the original drawing of a shelter built in a factory in Trinec, a miniature device for electrification of the dams and fortifications made armored domes figure in Trinec in the amount of 2 -3 per week. The same station shortly forwarded the information to deploy artillery in shelters Hluczyn (Hlučín). In August, General Staff Division II in the tasks of intelligence on the Czech fortifications, states that "at the top Czantoria concrete forts were found to exist" and that the fortifications are being built for the plant of Trinec.
Compared probably dating from the period before taking Zaolzie listed is 225 shelters, including the four great in the area Bohumín, giving their exact location.
The development of the crisis - Polish decision to seizure Zaolzie
Czechoslovak-Polish relations throughout the interwar period did not create themselves best from Warsaw, it was combined with the reluctance of the total disbelief in the possibility of a continuation of the Republic and seek with her agreement. Did not constitute the essence of things and lots Zaolzie dispute with the year 1918-20. A factor was the pro-Russian policy of Czechoslovakia when it came to Russia's territorial claims to Polish territory. Evidence of this material is the Polish Foreign Ministry in March 1938 "... As long as the head of state stands Czechoslovak Benes, or until any other will play a decisive role in the country, and will be left to govern as long as Czech, Polish co-operation with Czechoslovakia seems to me to be excluded. ... Today is also the important point is that Czechoslovakia is influenced by Soviet Russia and all Międzynarodówkom (III, II, IV, forming, masonry, etc.). Hence stemmed, in relation to the Polish are not guided by self-interest but the interests Międzynarodówek . Taking in general, all the proposals at the Czech Polish are cyclical, and especially disingenuous. I never will be loyally carried out ...". Czech affix a reluctance to enter the country, in its view threatened from all sides, which was Poland and the reluctance to take a position in the Polish-German dispute, since, according to Benes of Czechoslovakia and Germany had no reason to quarrel. On the other hand, policies Beck tolerated the possibility of annexation by Germany, the Czech Republic and Slovakia by Hungary. Moreover, in the interests of the German saw the Czechs a chance to extend the facilities on its own border with Germany.
Czechoslovakia matter of his security without reservations tied with France, with whom relations were based on considerations far more closely than the Polish-French relations. Czechoslovakia has not entered into the path of self-ever policy on the model of Polish politics. More importantly, the military alliance with the Soviet Union had enforceable obligations as allies of France. Once outlined the threat of Czech-German conflict, a "... request made by President Moscicki to President Benes that Czechoslovakia would defend himself with that if that were the case, Poland will engage on her side, Benes said, after a few On that Czechoslovakia has no chance of defense and that whip up arms only if the implementation of a military alliance by France, stressing however that Czechoslovakia alone has not taken the military initiative. In Warsaw, this response was assessed as agreed with the Soviet Union ... ' The decision of the war in defense of Czechoslovakia, which shall be taken automatically mean a Paris performance of the Polish-French alliance against Germany. The Polish government on this possibility was prepared, although it does not believe it accurately assessed the desire of France to maintain "peace at any price." However, if przerodzenia crisis in the European war, according to the minister Mr Beck had 24 hours to change the policy of Poland because Poland could not be on the side of Germany, even indirectly.
On the initiative of the Polish Foreign Ministry Zaolzie put forward in March, still require national autonomy, the same way as did the Sudeten Germans. September 15 Polish diplomats in London, Paris and Berlin have received from Beck's command, to demand the inclusion of a plebiscite in Cieszyn Silesia in the general scheme to resolve the Sudeten. On the Polish note of Sept. 21, the Czechoslovak government responded vague letter, which the minister gave Kroft Papéemu Member of Sept. 25, the letter is completed a letter to President Benes Moscicki sent to Warsaw 26 September. Polish demands for Zaolzie have been sent to Germany on Sept. 23, they were included in three variants:
A. The maximum involving Requests for Olza Silesia with the Moravian Ostrava and Witkowice
B. As above, but no part of the district frysztackiego
C. Requests the minimum, as above, without Ostrava and Vítkovice
On the same day by an exchange of notes between the Governments of the Soviet and Polish.
September 27th, the Polish authorities have identified in a note to the Czechoslovak government being the territorial dispute and request an immediate agreement on the assignment of "clearly Polish" sites and the rest Zaolzie plebiscite. In response to Kroft Minister agreed to transfer the land at issue within two months. According to Beck's odsuwało this matter until the Prague regain a free hand. So on Sept. 30 before midnight, Mr Papée handed in a transfer request, an ultimatum to the Oct. 10 issue of the plebiscite in the provinces and four stages. deadline for the ultimatum expired at noon on October 1. A quarter to midnight on October 1 Minister Kroft gave assent to the Polish claim, however, reported a request for permission to use later with the railway line Bohumín - Zilina.
4. Mobilization
CZECHOSLOVAKIA
Czechoslovak Army in the first phase of the crisis, 20 May 1938 was put into an ambulance. Appointed to the army one year and five vintages of technical troops. Also strengthened border protection.
To a significant worsening of the crisis occurred when the military staff at the meeting in Nuremberg on the night of 9 to 10 September, while held in this city congress of the NSDAP, the German authorities decided to break off negotiations with the government of Czechoslovakia. Served as a pretext incident staged in Ostrava, Moravia. In this situation across the border proliferated armed incidents provoked and organized by the German militia. This forced the Czechoslovak authorities to put in some border districts of the state of emergency. Sept. 14 at 3 am the alarm and opened the border units began to occupy their positions guard the border. Called up the second year and strengthened its youngest cast light objects. Gradually increased since then was in their state of readiness. 22 September the Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia became enemies belonging to the surrender of Gen. John Syrový. So when the news reached Prague, the failure of the mission Chamberlain at Bad Godesberg, 23 September announced the mobilization of the evening. It was carried out very efficiently, so that the Czechoslovak army on Sept. 28 reached full combat readiness.
Silesia was in lane two of the Army (commander - gen.dyw. Vojtech Luž a) and falls within the corps band Hraniční XIII (commander - gen.dyw. Emil Fiala). The position of principal, in addition to units fortress, filled in the section Albrechtice-Jablonkuv Division Hraniční Oblast in 1937 (commander - gen.bryg. Otakar Lička). In addition, there were branches fortress, a platoon (rota) and Battalion (praporu) 4 Border Regiment (hraničařského pluku) obsadzające heavy objects into Bohumín, and branches of Evil (Zajiątěni Léhkého Opevněni) obsadzające line of lightweight shelters.
In the second wave was forming part of the body - Sboru IV (commander - gen.bryg. Josef Janacek) 8 dp (commander - gen.bryg. Otakar Zahálka). These troops could be supported by the divisions that are at the disposal of the high command:
12 dp - plk.gąt commander. Joseph Buben, concentrated in the area of Vsetín and moves to N. Jicin,
22 dp - gen.bryg commander. Josef Beranek, concentrated in the region of Žilina ® and moves on Vsetín, and further east
16 dp - gen.bryg commander. Frantiąek Marvan, concentrated in the region of Ruzomberok and move on and Jablunkov Žilina.
POLAND
While the Czechoslovak crisis began in the fall sharper phase, from 5 to 19 September took place in Volhynia large maneuvers, where he attended Marshall E. Smigly-Rydz. Their practical aim was to study the organization and the ability to act Learner cavalry divisions, the possibility of trying out the great armored motor units and the use of command and more a grouping of aviation, as well as an attempt to unit air-desantowego. Maneuvers have been completed which is a parade in Luck at the same time a great manifestation of the national-patriotic. These maneuvers off the training tasks may be the intentions of the Polish authorities, a demonstration of power and readiness of active opposition to Soviet troops attempt to march through the Polish territory. Please note that the Soviet authorities in May of Czechoslovakia declared its readiness to provide assistance. Another obstacle was the lack of consent of the Polish and Romania, the march of Soviet troops through their territories. March 15 Commissioner Litvinov journalists to question how the Soviet Union will be able to fulfill his obligation in the event of aggression against Czechoslovakia, since there is no common border said, "a corridor for sure will be found." During the crisis, two Czechoslovakian fighter squadron, 161 and 162, remained in the so-called. ambush at the airport in Monasterzyskach near Buczacz.

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Last part:



During the maneuvers, Chief of the General Staff informed the Inspector General to date on developments and military decrees Czechoslovakia. On September 16 after taking his own political action Smigly Marshal agreed to send a regiment of school KOP "Osowiec" in order to strengthen border guards on the Silesian section. On 19 September it was decided to shift the next day from Volhynia to Silesia in 1921 the DP and 10BK. It adds that, stationed at the Silesia in 1923 the DP was then well on exercises in the region międzydywizyjnych Jaslo and Gorlice. On his return march. Smigly on 21 September in Warsaw, was established Independent Operational Group "Silesia", which designated the commander gen.dyw. W. Bortnowski (Army Inspector "Pomerania"), chief of staff of the group was płk.dypl. I. Izdebski. The SGO "Śląsk" entered the following units:
21 Infantry Division, commander gen.bryg. J. Kustroń
23 Infantry Division, commander gen.bryg. J. Sadowski
4th Infantry Division commander płk.dypl. M. Boltuc
Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade, the commander of gen.bryg. Abraham R.
10 Armoured Cavalry Brigade Motorized, strengthened, col. A.Trzaska-Durski
Silesian Brigade of National Defence, the commander of ppłk.dypl. J. Giza
1 / 2 Teschen Brigade of National Defence, the commander of ppłk.dypl. J. Gabrys
KOP Regiment "Rozan"
improvised group of tanks (based on 3 Battalion tanks from Warsaw): 1 battalion of tanks, reconnaissance detachment, 2 and 22 anti-tank squadron
Artillery Group and available 18 DAC motorized heaviest artillery, a battery of howitzers (23 DP)
battalion of sappers
armored train
Air Force: 5 fighter squadrons (including 111,112,121 squadron thought. ECN 131. thought. in the region of Czestochowa and Wielun), two light bomber squadrons (21, 22 Squadron Line), a reconnaissance squadron, five platoons flanking
Together these troops numbered 35 966 officers, NCOs and other ranks, 8371 horses, 267 passenger cars, 707 trucks, 459 motorcycles, 103 tanks, 9 armored cars, 1012 rkm and LMC, 445 heavy machine guns, 117 guns, 117 anti-tank guns, 103 planes.
Flag of the infantry divisions were incomplete, supplemented battalions of national defense or other units marszowymi battalions. The same applied to artillery, to full-time units collected were missing eight squadrons, which were likely to come at later dates. However, saturation of armored equipment, and motor was like the Polish army quite significant.
The information we have about the Czechoslovak troops, initially were quite scarce. Information Communication Division II SGO stating that the strengthening of the Darkov Bohumín appoints the 1st Battalion 8 pp (HO 36), the 2nd Battalion of the regiment in reserve is located to the east of the Moravian Ostrava. Episode Darkov - Trinec occupies 40 pp (HO 37) cast the 2nd Battalion Trinec cyclists. On the stretch from the Třinec Jablunkova battalion is 3 percentage points and 8 units of three unidentified pp. In the forests of south-west of Třinec by unverified messages appear was 15 pp (HO 37). In omberoku stationed Ruz was 16 DP odwodu High Command. Other divisions of odwodu and 3A can be quickly recovered near the Polish border. Was estimated that in 1938 built on that stretch of 231 shelters of light and 4 heavy.
Action plans Polish
Presented on September 26 by General Inspector General Bortnowski SGO action plan "Śląsk" provided for two options: A - "in case of occupation," B - "Fighting the accident." The "case of the occupation" 23 DP together with the national defense would take the northern part of Zaolzie with Bohumín, 21 DP Cieszyn and continue to work on Frydek and district had dealt Jablunkova Greater BK from battalion riflemen and national defense. AB 1910 was the move to the area of Cieszyn Mistřovice. Other groups of individuals were to remain on the Polish side of the border. Plans for the "event of the fight" was vague at this time, the Bortnowski stressed that the situation of the Czechoslovak side is constantly changing, the number of troops is increasing, which may require changes to the plan. Bortnowski expected, "the firm stance of the Czechs on the line of fortifications," and furthermore, the mood in Zaolzie, both among the population of the Czech and Polish, pull request "that the first moment of the fight can be sharp." However, despite the general view of incomplete state of his army, after the addition of offensive artillery groups may be successful in its initial phase. Under these conditions, the plan provided for the execution at dawn attack by two groups of shock: 21 DP, backed later by AB 1910, was circumvented by Trinec Cieszyn from the south, from the insured by the Greater Jablunkova BK enhanced detachment Rozan. 23 DP supported by national defense had to perform a blow on the forehead and Cieszyn from the north. On the right wing of the SGO "Śląsk" three battalions were to take ON Fryštát and Karviná. The attack was to be preceded by a strong artillery preparation. The task was to carry out air reconnaissance and guard against the enemy air force. In the days that followed this plan in more detail has been developed and revised with an emphasis on the section north of Cieszyn.
Information Communication No. 5 with 30.09 confirmed the earlier data on the Czechoslovak troops, but it also turned more attention to the development of fortification: "Work on the fortifications are still in progress. There was a further establishment of entanglement in the stakes of wood and Fryštát Loukia and goats in the barbed wire Division Bohumín and N. Ves (New Village). There are signs that are made to prepare for elektryfikowania obstacles. fortification between objects are set additional kilometers. "
Under the new plan have been prepared orders for the army orders SGO "Slask", remained of them: "The overall operational command. The attack on 4.x" 3.X and dated orders for 23 DP, Artillery Group, and improvised Tank Brigade. Puzzling is the date of the order and timing of the attack. Probably, these documents have been prepared by the staff of SGO before adoption by the Polish ultimatum to the Czechoslovak Government. They also lack in the number of signatures and log. In the general despatches operacyjym assessed that against the forces of Czechoslovakia SGO is 3 DP (DP footnote 8 the author), while the direction comes Moravian Ostrava 7 DP, while the south 16 DP supplies more northern slopes of the mountain artillery Jabłonkowskich attempt to prevent circumvention of the line of fortifications. The task of the "power of Silesia Zaolziański answer" was intended to meet head-on breaking the Czech line of fortifications to the north of Cieszyn focused on a narrow stretch of three division attack to get the lords of the hill Zaolzie Těrlicko (Cierlicka). Implementation of a frontal attack rested for 23 DP Brigade supported by tanks and heavy artillery, the whole group and acting to the left of 4 DP.
23 DP attack had seven battalions of infantry and medium tanks Battalion, supported by all the artillery, with dawn breaking, right-wing strongly fortified line in the section Czech Chotěbuz (Kocobądź) - Bridges (off), and without stopping to get back to 423.9, and skip to defend on the line 423,9-353,1 until further orders. This sentence had to do two groups of forces, the right composed of 75 pp, 73 pp battalion, three medium tank battalion, battalion of sappers, comp. anti-tank No. 2, in direct support of III/23 pal, lewoskrzydłowa composed of 11 pp, comp. sap., comp. No. 22 guns, in direct support of I/23 pal. Both groups had the night to control the valley slope Olza, under cover of which had to wait artillery preparation, and under cover of smoke and tanks of struggle between the shelters are not taking care of disarming them, as soon as possible to get wzg. 351.1 Vyroubany and sticks as the basis for a strike starting on the back of the light tanks of the enemy defense organization, to allow the infantry to deal with wzg. 423.9. The reserve divisions remained without Tank Brigade Battalion 3, 73 pp without Battalion OR division. After mastering the line 414-423,9 11 pp odwodu had to go to the SGO.
Tank Brigade, his three medium tank battalion as a direct support of 75 percentage points was hit in the waist Zpupna Lhota - Les Cerny (off) and allow the band to break the Czech shelters, after exiting the rear of fortifications battalion should return from the west against the enemy in the grouping section 11 pp . Light tank battalions (1 and 2) and OR Brigade advancing along with 23 DP odwodami przeciwnatarciom the reserves were intended to prevent the enemy on the left wing of the division and assist them in managing the back Koňákov (Koniakow) - Kostelec (Kościelec). After leaving the infantry wzg. 423.9 titre of at least one tank company to stop the chase for Těrlicko (Těrlicko) and Třenovice (Třanovice) to prepare the invasion of Wielkopolska BK.
4 DP acting in the lane bridges - Koňákov (Koniakow) - Domaslavice (Domasławice) to the north and Dzięgielów - Puńców - Swibice the south, was charged with a powerful right-wing attack along with 23 DP by Bridges to Koniakow. After breaking the Czech line of fortifications Division had rolled me toward the south seeking contact with the DP 21. The lane leading battalion of sappers attack SGO 1923 under the orders of the commander of the DP had a separate patrols to disarm gained shelters, while assigned to the platoon 4DP flame-throwers were to be used for the rolling line of shelters after the breakout. Located in the armies of anti-tank cannons were tyralierą move in the first wave of infantry to fire shooting of Czech side ostrzeliwywać shelters
South of the Cieszyn of SGO cover was 21 DP. For this purpose, starting during the night from the area of Leszno Grn. was supposed to get around from behind and win the strengthening of the Czech Republic in the hills and Osuvka Kojkovice so before dawn to take defensive positions on the southern slope of the hills with sharp lines in the chat rooms - Babi Hora - 306th After completing a task expected to use part of the division to attack the axis Puńców - Zhukov DLN.
SGO rearguard were: Motorized Brigade (10 Pancé BK-Mot) and Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade. Motorized Brigade, concentrated in the region Skoczow - Lipowiec - Godziszów would be willing to chair. 7th, or to move plenty of Olše attack on the main stretch and move in pursuit of the Moravian Ostrava, or to march through Ustron - Istebna the Jablunkov to exit the rear of the Czech DP 1916. Greater BK concentrated in the region Dębowiec - Ogrodzona - Skoczow was to be the chair. 7th ready to march, or by the Moravian Ostrava Cieszyn, or by the Těrlicko Trinec (Těrlicko).
SGO provide guard troops from the north Brig. ON COL Giza with armored train which was to involve the enemy in the section Pogwizdów - Ruptowa, the south half-brigade of Colonel ON Gabi would leave at the same time in 1921 by DP Jawornik - Nýdek top Prasivo. Vistula Valley closed OW Istebna.
Artillery SGO Slask has been divided into direct support of the Group of 23 and 4 DP (I and III Dyon pal), the Group of combat artillery (1 pamot, Dyon 105 mm cannon with 5 pac), the Group of the movement (Dyon heaviest guns, 2 howitzers dyony 155 pac 5 mm, the second dyony dyony light artillery and heavy artillery of 23 and 4, DP, and horse artillery), the Group covers tanks (Tank Brigade artillery). The attack was to be preceded by a leader without firing a 30-minute artillery preparation, four breakthrough three minutes after the break and 18 minutes, which took aim at the enemy trenches inertia and dazzle. Consumption amount of ammunition was 1 1 / 2 units of fire of which 30% dymotwórczych missiles.
Air Force fighter would protect its own tanks, artillery and attack, and bomber aircraft to fight the enemy artillery on the slopes of the mountains Jabłonkowskich.
The importance attached to the line to break the Czech fortification resulted in the diagnosis on the basis of interview guidelines were developed to combat them:
2. The course of events in the annexation - a conflict of Bohumín
October 1, as previously mentioned, Czechoslovakia adopted a Polish ultimatum by agreeing to cede the disputed territory Zaolzie and 2 October the SGO "Śląsk" crossed the border. Under the command of an agreement between the Polish and Czechoslovakian (Gen. F. Hrabčik) site was divided into zones, which were to be occupied in turn by a few days. At that time, started dismantling and evacuation of weapons, equipment and supplies from the Czechoslovak fortifications. Yet October 7 ROP liners ordered the dismantling of the Bell shooting and armored domes. October 8 and Battalion 4 after leaving the regiment retreated to fortifications Hrušová.
October 10, Polish forces occupied the entire area covered by the agreement with the Government of Czechoslovakia. Surprisingly, experienced trouble with the Germans bogumińskimi organized in SA who, despite lack of support from Berlin began to prepare to defend the city. There was even likely to be forthcoming clashes with Polish troops. In view of the existing situation the Czech side has agreed to accelerate the transfer of Bohumín which, according to initial findings had to be transmitted on October 10. On the second day of operations against the fear that Germany might forestall the Polish army, was sent part of the 1910-BK Pancé Mot. (24 p.uł. Articles and battery. Mot.) For a Rybnik on Bohumín.
In the meantime, however, there are differences between Poland and Germany concerning the delimitation of occupied land. This problem was indeed think the Germans have already indicated during the discussions on September 28, but then because of the Munich conference was not examined more closely. October 4, Marshal H. Goering said that so far as the territory south of the south-eastern strip of Silesia, it must be primarily German. If you disagree with the Polish on the subject, it can be done with the tender for the object of Gdańsk. On the same day Ambassador Lipski submitted a statement that the matter Bohumín and the final determination of the boundary line must be discussed. Therefore, the ambassador called for the seizure as soon as possible Bohumín by the Polish army.
The next Hitler declared that it is not interested in Bohumin, which no longer appears on the German side in the morning, it approved the map. He further stated that the city is thoroughly Polish and do not want to bargain with the Poles for each city, but will act against them because they were generous in their demands for moderates. However, in spite of German diplomacy to recognize the rights of Polish Bohumín continued pressure sliding economic and ethnic demands. Warsaw, Oct. 7 was submitted a few things that the German Government should be addressed:
regulation of communication in connection with the railway line Sw Anny - Bohumín - Witkowice
provide consent for the construction of the Polish section of the channel within the Oder - Danube
opening of the German consulate in Cieszyn
treatment of the German population in that territory is not worse than it is now
Casting of heavy object
Probably, however, feared the German reaction to the possible conflict with the German minority in Bohumín and presumably, therefore, 75 pp and 3 riflemen battalion occupied defensive positions on the basis of a line of fortifications from the Oder to the Czechoslovak Bohumín inclusive. Grouping of the regiment and its individual subunits tasks defined ordered fighter regiment No. 2 commander of October 12, 1938, the Regiment Battalion had no one to defend the old section of the state border to the south Wierzbica based on heavy shelters Czechoslovakia, MO S-2 to S-MO 5, and at the tip of the point resistance with extended Pudłów the Oder line insurance. The regiment was to be prepared for counterattacks in the general direction Pudlov (Pudłów) - Vrbice (Wierzbica) and N. Bohumín - Fw. Cerwin. Responsible for a defense shelters Comp. HMG with four teams and działonem strzeleckimi artillery. Reserve regiment were two battalions, each without a single company. Defence to provide artillery support was assigned to an armored train, and 6 / 23 pole.
The orders set specific tasks for various heavy shelters, which are called in these documents forts. And so appropriately the object MO S-2 fort I MO S-3 II fort, MO S-4 Fort III, MO S-5 Fort IV.
Summary - Opinions on the Czech fortifications
In summary, pay attention to recognize the intensity of Czechoslovak fortifications by the Polish intelligence, from the beginning of construction until Zaolzie classes, and the emphasis you kładzino plans in the event of a conflict in przerodzenia Zbójna clash with the Czech Republic, breaking the smooth line of fortifications and their output rear. Draws attention to focus on a narrow section, in addition to substantial forces of infantry, artillery group aiming to make the preparation of a large number of artillery guns, and the use of tanks to break Battalion medium (49 cars 7TP), and detailed discussion of the orders or instructions and disposal methods incapacitate shelters by infantry, artillery, anti-tank weapons and flame throwers. It is significant that the main force when broken on a narrow stretch of the fortifications were not to become embroiled in the acquisition of the remaining objects the line, leaving that task to Sappers and second-line troops.
Everything has been presented above, testifies to the fact that Poland highly appreciated the value of defensive fortifications Czechoslovak and their importance in the defense system.
After the occupation of Cieszyn Silesia Polish military authorities have made a careful evaluation of fortification located there. Inventoried in detail all the four heavy shelters, including their bells, sample light objects and components, firewalls and anti-landmines. The study of the Department of the Ministry of War Infantry "Fortresses in the Czech Teschen district and frysztackiego" in describing heavy objects highlighted the relatively limited angle of fire main shooting, which can be run only according to the authors addressed the fire, also drew attention to a number of small arms to defend shooting entrance and walk. In describing the objects of light highlighted the depth of the lines of those shelters, to meet the four kicks Cieszyn, south of Cieszyn and meet Frysztat in 3 kicks. According to the authors places the impression schematic filling of land without a dense network of shelters deeper tactical thinking. Explained that the shelters meet 50-100 m standing on the front of the veil, to facilitate the approach to them. Considered possible that the skeleton had a field position.
Carried out by the artillery and market experience showed that the destruction of one light needed in the shelter / g theoretical calculations of 1980-1990 is the heaviest artillery shells work 2 hours and 20 minutes of one battery or one hour and 30 minutes the entire squadron.
In the opinion of the General Work artillery at the General Inspector of the Armed Forces Brig. S. Miller, the force line of fortifications to defend the Czech Republic mainly consists of:
- Fire side high-density machine which effectively covers the firewall flat międzypola, fires all the objects are very well connected.
- Anti-tank obstacles (ditches and called. Bitterns)
- Resistance of small objects on the operation of missile 15 cm high and 42 cm on the missiles. Minor side wall thickness of primarily small shelters to be explained by the fact that the constructor does not reckoned with the possibility of fire in front of the firing of the cannon more powerful.
- Small size shelters (4 x 6.5 m) which are difficult to destroy because of the low probability of a hit by artillery attackers
Furthermore, the gene Miller fortifications Czechoslovak artillery support was based solely on a mobile artillery possesses an enormous number of observation points, each object has periscopes and can be used by the artillery observer. This was consistent with the views of the general organic artillery fortifications, which tried to implement in the Polish fortifications in the east. The impact on the development of the concept of Polish fortifications and construction of fortifications had these tests and evaluation of the Czech fortifications, however, constitute a separate subject.


Very interesting:



Stosunki polsko-czechosłowackie w całym dwudziestoleciu nie układały się najlepiej, ze strony Warszawy była to całkowita niechęć połączona z niewiarą w możliwość utrzymania się Republiki i szukania z nią porozumienia. Istoty rzeczy nie stanowiły losy Zaolzia i sporu z lat 1918-20. Pewnym czynnikiem była prorosyjska polityka Czechosłowacji gdy chodziło o pretensje terytorialne Rosji do ziem polskich. Dowodem tego są materiały polskiego MSZ z marca 1938 r. "...Dopóki na czele państwa czeskosłowackiego stoi Benesz, lub dopóki odgrywać będzie jakąkolwiek inną rolę decydującą w państwie, oraz dopóki rządzić będzie lewica czeska, współpraca Polski z Czechosłowacją wydaje się mi wykluczona.... Dzisiaj ważnym momentem jest również to, że Czechosłowacja ulega wpływom Rosji Sowieckiej i wszelkim Międzynarodówkom (III, II, tworzącej się IV, masonerii itd.). Stąd wypływało, że w stosunku do Polski kieruje się nie interesem własnym, lecz interesami Międzynarodówek. Biorąc ogólnie, wszystkie propozycje czeskie pod adresem Polski są koniunkturalne, a przede wszystkim nieszczere. Nigdy nie będą lojalnie wykonywane...". Dołączała się czeska niechęć do wiązania się z państwem w jego mniemaniu zagrożonym ze wszystkich stron, jakim była Polska oraz niechęć do zajmowania stanowiska w sporach polsko-niemieckich, gdyż zdaniem Benesza Czechosłowacja i Niemcy nie miały powodów do zatargu. Z drugiej strony polityka Becka godziła się z możliwością zaboru Czech przez Niemcy i Słowacji przez Węgry. Co więcej widziała w zainteresowaniach niemieckich Czechami szansę przedłużenia pokoju na własnej granicy z Niemcami.

Czechosłowacja sprawę swego bezpieczeństwa bez zastrzeżeń związała z Francją, z którą stosunki opierały się na przesłankach znacznie bliższej współpracy niż stosunki polsko-francuskie. Czechosłowacja nie weszła nigdy na drogę samodzielnej polityki na wzór polityki polskiej. Co ważniejsze także sojusz wojskowy ze Związkiem Sowieckim miał klauzulę wykonalności w postaci wypełnienia zobowiązań sojuszniczych przez Francję. W momencie gdy zarysowała się groźba konfliktu czesko-niemieckiego, na "...zapytanie wystosowane przez prezydenta Mościckiego do prezydenta Benesza, czy Czechosłowacja będzie się bronić, z dodatkiem, że gdyby tak było, Polska zaangażuje się po jej stronie, Benesz odpowiedział po kilku dniach, że Czechosłowacja szans obrony nie ma i że chwyci za broń tylko w razie wykonania sojuszu wojskowego przez Francję, podkreślając jednak, że Czechosłowacja sama inicjatywy wojskowej nie podejmie. W Warszawie oceniono tę odpowiedź jako uzgodnioną ze Związkiem Sowieckim..." Decyzja wojny w obronie Czechosłowacji powzięta w Paryżu oznaczałaby automatycznie wykonanie sojuszu polsko-francuskiego przeciwko Niemcom. Rząd polski na tę możliwość był przygotowany, choć w nią nie wierzył, gdyż oceniano trafnie pragnienie Francji utrzymania "pokoju za wszelką cenę". Jednak w razie przerodzenia się kryzysu w wojnę europejską, zdaniem ministra J. Becka należało w ciągu 24 godzin zmienić polska politykę gdyż Polska nie mogła być po stronie Niemiec, nawet pośrednio.

And also:


W czasie gdy kryzys czechosłowacki zaczynał wchodzić w ostrzejszą fazę, od 5 do 19 września trwały na Wołyniu wielkie manewry, w których uczestniczył sam Marszałek E. Śmigły-Rydz. Praktycznym ich celem miało być przestudiowanie organizacji oraz zdolności do działania ćwiczebnej dywizji kawalerii, wypróbowanie możliwości wielkiej jednostki pancerno-motorowej oraz użycia i dowodzenia większym zgrupowaniem lotnictwa, a także próba oddziału powietrzno-desantowego. Manewry zakończone zostały defiladą w Łucku będącą zarazem wielką manifestację narodowo-patriotyczną. Manewry te poza zadaniami szkoleniowymi mogły być w zamierzeniach polskich władz demonstrację siły i gotowości czynnego przeciwstawienia się próbom przemarszu wojsk sowieckich przez terytorium Polski. Należy pamiętać że władze sowieckie od maja deklarowały gotowość udzielenia Czechosłowacji pomocy. Przeszkodą był brak zgody Polski i Rumunii na przemarsz wojsk sowieckich przez ich terytoria. 15 marca komisarz Litwinow na pytanie dziennikarzy jak Związek Sowiecki będzie mógł spełnić swój obowiązek w wypadku agresji przeciw Czechosłowacji skoro nie ma wspólnej granicy odpowiedział: "jakiś korytarz na pewno się znajdzie".


Google translated:

Czechoslovak-Polish relations throughout the interwar period did not create themselves best from Warsaw, it was combined with the reluctance of the total disbelief in the possibility of a continuation of the Republic and seek with her agreement. Did not constitute the essence of things and lots Zaolzie dispute with the year 1918-20. A factor was the pro-Russian policy of Czechoslovakia when it came to Russia's territorial claims to Polish territory. Evidence of this material is the Polish Foreign Ministry in March 1938 "... As long as the head of state stands Czechoslovak Benes, or until any other will play a decisive role in the country, and will be left to govern as long as Czech, Polish co-operation with Czechoslovakia seems to me to be excluded. ... Today is also the important point is that Czechoslovakia is influenced by Soviet Russia and all Międzynarodówkom [Internationals / International Workingmen's Associations] (III, II, IV, forming, masonry, etc.). Hence stemmed, in relation to the Polish are not guided by self-interest but the interests Międzynarodówek . Taking in general, all the proposals at the Czech Polish are cyclical, and especially disingenuous. I never will be loyally carried out ...". Czech affix a reluctance to enter the country, in its view threatened from all sides, which was Poland and the reluctance to take a position in the Polish-German dispute, since, according to Benes of Czechoslovakia and Germany had no reason to quarrel. On the other hand, policies Beck tolerated the possibility of annexation by Germany, the Czech Republic and Slovakia by Hungary. What's more she saw in the interests of German Czechs a chance to extend the facilities on its own border with Germany.

Flag question its security without reservation bound with France, with whom relations were based on considerations far more closely than the Polish-French relations. Czechoslovakia has not entered into the path of self-ever policy on the model of Polish policy. More importantly, the military alliance with the Soviet Union had enforceable obligations as allies of France. Once outlined the threat of Czech-German conflict, a "... request made by President Moscicki to President Benes that Czechoslovakia would defend himself with that if that were the case, Poland will engage on her side, Benes said, after a few On that Czechoslovakia has no chance of defense and that whip up arms only if the implementation of a military alliance by France, stressing however that Czechoslovakia alone has not taken the military initiative. In Warsaw, this response was assessed as agreed with the Soviet Union ... " The decision of the war in defense of Czechoslovakia, which shall be taken automatically mean a Paris performance of the Polish-French alliance against Germany. The Polish government on this possibility has been prepared, although it did not believe it accurately assessed the desire of France to maintain "peace at any price." However, if przerodzenia crisis in the European war, according to the minister Mr Beck had 24 hours to change the policy of Poland because Poland could not be on the side of Germany, even indirectly.

---------------------------------------

While the Czechoslovak crisis began in the fall sharper phase, from 5 to 19 September took place in Volhynia large maneuvers, where he attended Marshall E. Smigly-Rydz. Their practical aim was to study the organization and the ability to act Learner cavalry divisions, the possibility of trying out the great armored motor units and the use of command and more a grouping of aviation, as well as an attempt to unit air-desantowego. The maneuvers have been completed in Lutsk parade which is also a great manifestation of the national-patriotic. These maneuvers off the training tasks may be the intentions of the Polish authorities, a demonstration of strength and readiness of active attempts to oppose the passage of Soviet troops through Polish territory. Please note that the Soviet authorities in May of Czechoslovakia declared its readiness to provide assistance. Another obstacle was the lack of consent of the Polish and Romania, the march of Soviet troops through their territories. March 15 Commissioner Litvinov journalists to question how the Soviet Union will be able to fulfill his obligation in the event of aggression against Czechoslovakia, since there is no common border said, "a corridor for sure will be found."

[Antey]

. These maneuvers off the training tasks may be the intentions of the Polish authorities, a demonstration of strength and readiness of active attempts to oppose the passage of Soviet troops through Polish territory. Please note that the Soviet authorities in May of Czechoslovakia declared its readiness to provide assistance. Another obstacle was the lack of consent of the Polish and Romania, the march of Soviet troops through their territories. March 15 Commissioner Litvinov journalists to question how the Soviet Union will be able to fulfill his obligation in the event of aggression against Czechoslovakia, since there is no common border said, "a corridor for sure will be found."

Just to remind - that neither British nor the French were seriously committed to helping Czechoslovakia, either with their own or Soviet assistance. For that matter, Czechoslovakia also didn't seem determined to protect it's integrity.
This Soviet "readiness" is also questionable - even during aggression of Poland later, Soviet Army was still severely hampered by inadequate training and command. Also it was entirely certain that not even 20 years after previous war Soviets would not leave or transit peacefully through Polish lands - which was proven not that much later. There also would not be any need for Soviet assistance if the British and French had committed to help Czechoslovakia or the country itself would fight. Germany after September Campaign (Fall Weiss) were very vulnerable to any coordinated strike, but no such thing happened.

[bulletmouse]

what do you think is this photo shot
in poland or russia, its a german tank ? , the kids have a kippot cap ?
http://www.v-like-vintage.net/en/photo_details/92877_photo_noName/

[Domen]

Hi bulletmouse.

If this photo:

http://www.v-like-vintage.net/en/photo_details/92878_photo_Unknown+War+memories/?picturetype=all

Is from the same album, then this is in Russia (near Charkiw), you can see Merefa and Tschugujew.

The first tank on the photo you posted is German (Panzerkampfwagen III).

[TakeIt]

in poland or russia, its a german tank ? It's Soviet Union. Specifically Ukraine, Kharkov, Privokzal'naja square, June or July 1942. Photographer apparently was Hermann Hoefke. Tanks are damaged as a result of Soviet attempt to liberate the city in May that year.


the kids have a kippot cap ? Nothing unusual here. Just a cap.