Hiroshima mayor slams Bush nuke policy

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030806/wl_afp/japan_hiroshima_us_030806071816


HIROSHIMA, Japan (AFP) - Hiroshima's mayor lashed out at the United States' nuclear weapons policy during ceremonies marking the 58th anniversary of the city's atomic bombing, which caused the deaths of over 230,000 people.



Mayor Tadatoshi Akiba said the United States worshipped nuclear weapons as "God" and blamed it for jeopardising the global nuclear non-proliferation regime.


"The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the central international agreement guiding the elimination of nuclear weapons, is on the verge of collapse," Akiba said in an address to some 40,000 people.


"The chief cause is US nuclear policy that, by openly declaring the possibility of a pre-emptive nuclear first strike and calling for resumed research into mini-nukes and other so-called 'useable nuclear weapons,' appears to worship nuclear weapons as God," he said.


The mayor also slammed as unjust the US-led war on Iraq (news - web sites), which he blamed for killing innocent civilians. "The weapons of mass destruction that served as the excuse for the war have yet to be found," he said.


Akiba strongly urged US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il to personally visit Hiroshima and "confront the reality of nuclear war".


As the clock clicked onto 8:15 am (2315 GMT Tuesday), the exact time the United States dropped the bomb on August 6, 1945, those at the ceremony at Hiroshima's Peace Memorial Park bowed their heads for a minute's silence in memory of the victims of the attack.


During the 45-minute ceremony, officials added 5,050 names to the register of victims who died immediately or from the after-effects of radiation exposure in the bombing, bringing the total toll to 231,920, an official said.


The Hiroshima bombing was followed by the dropping of a second atomic bomb on the city of Nagasaki on August 9, 1945, which killed another estimated 74,000 people.


Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi told the service that Japan would stick by its pacifist constitution and its non-nuclear principles because the tragedies of Hiroshima and Nagasaki "can never be repeated."


This year's ceremony came ahead of six-nation talks over North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons development programme, which Pyongyang agreed to last week.


Koizumi told reporters after the ceremony that North Korea's abduction of Japanese nationals would be a high priority at the talks.


"At the six-nation talks, obviously, nuclear weapons will be the focus, but for Japan, the abduction issue is just as important," he said.


"We will naturally have close cooperation with the United States and South Korea (news - web sites), but we must make efforts to have China and Russia understand our position as well," he said.


Last week, North Korea said it would accept six-way talks to include North and South Korea, Russia, Japan, China and the United States to end the nuclear crisis that began in October last year.


Washington had accused the Stalinist state of reneging on a 1994 bilateral nuclear freeze accord by running a clandestine nuclear programme based on enriched uranium.

[Salty Dog]

i just don't really care about what that guy has to say.

[Kriz]

i just don't really care about what that guy has to say. Then why don't you just STFU :bash:

[Saranof]

i just don't really care about what that guy has to say.

well, listening to other people isn't fun, if you can't bomb em...

[Fargin]

Has the only country who've used nukes against civilians been disarmed?

[SEALteamVBSS]

I don't feel the least bit sorry for Japan, they got what they deserved back in WW2, and American's shouldnt feel sorry for doing it, its what had to be done.

[D.E. Watters]

Hiroshima was home to a naval base. In fact, I believe it was the home of their Naval Academy.

[Cpl.Roldan]

I don't feel the least bit sorry for Japan, they got what they deserved back in WW2, and American's shouldnt feel sorry for doing it, its what had to be done


So 200,000 civilians deserved to die? Such ignorance its people like you who deserve to be put in into a 3rd world country where war is always happening.

Your ****ing stupid I gurantee you will not be able to give a 1 logical and reasonable point that the Japanese deserved a NUCLEAR BOMB. You stupid bitch.......

[Vance]

It was either 250,000 dead or 2+ million dead. You decide.

[ScoutRanger]

No one deserved anything. What the hell does deserve have anything to do with this? You even know what the word means? We were at war, it was necesary.

[Argyll]

DE Waters
A bit overkill considering his Navy was virtually destroyed!!


The loss of innocent lives regardless,is always regretable,but again I see the same "hooya " responses from certain elements within this forum,which is a shame..........at the risk of some severe flack here can I make a very chilling comparison to a rescent event,and see if a certain attitude will change?
In 1945 America was at war with Germany and Japan,that is a fact nobody can deny,history is recorded,and the decision to end the war with Japan quickly,by using the Atomic bomb,was taken,now I've read somewhere else about this justification,about saving 2 million lives,these would be American/Allied lives yes?(Why did they not drop one into Nazi Germany?)It was an act that has meant that the USA is the only country in history to have deployed such a WMD on a largely Civilian population,and until armageddon,most likey this stigma will remain.

Now the comparison,and chilling as it is.
Osama Bin Laden declared a Jihad(Holy war) against the USA many years ago,vowing to take his WAR to the US,and he did,in his eyes and many Muslims across the world,he committed an act of war against the USA,by hitting the twin towers and the Pentagon,of which he would commit in the Wests eyes the greatest single act of terrorism,the world has ever seen.Now we all know that it was terrorism...fact,but to the Muslims of the world it was a war........what is the difference,in what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki,to factions of Islam's view of what happened on 9/11,when both were an act of war,in each persons view?

[duck]

Having lived in Japan for some years and speaking the language, I sometimes felt real hatred towards the people responsible for the mass murders at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But then, the alternative would not just have been a costly american invasion of the mainland but also the soviet bastards claiming Hokkaido and who knows how much of the main island Honshu. Japan nowadays is prosperous and developed thanks to generous american assistance and friendship after the war, just imagine if there would have been a "People's Republic of Japan" in the north. With 10+ soviet divisons prepared to attack the rest of the country...

Still even die-hard nuclear war-fans should take a moment and listen to the guy.

[Cpl.Roldan]

Vance how can you say 2 million dead, the war was over in Europe at this time for all we know the British, Canadians, Russians etc could've assisted too in an attack against Japan. For all we know Japan may have negeoiated, we cant say the what if's because it happened and 200,000 CIVILIANS died for nothing.....

[Vance]

That was the probable estimate of how many would die if we invaded Japan. Japan's high council would NEVER surrender if the Atom Bomb wasn't dropped, hell it took two bombs just to get them to surrender.

[Smoothie104]

Who would negotiate the surrender of their homeland without a fight? One that has existed for over 2300 years? C'mon!

In todays day we like to fight a war in 3 weeks and kill no civilians, but remember WWII took 4 years. The Nazis were bombing civilans in England and We were killing tens of thousands of japanese with incindery bombing runs.

There are literally thousands of accounts of Japanese soldiers fighting to the death or commiting suicide rather than being captured. And these were un inhabited islands. Imagine Trying to take the mainland, big cities like Tokyo.

Do a Google search on "operation downfall poison gas"

Looks like the US was drawing up plans to drop 50,000 tons of phosgene.

[James]

I don't feel the least bit sorry for Japan, they got what they deserved back in WW2, and American's shouldnt feel sorry for doing it, its what had to be done


So 200,000 civilians deserved to die? Such ignorance its people like you who deserve to be put in into a 3rd world country where war is always happening.

Your f*** stupid I gurantee you will not be able to give a 1 logical and reasonable point that the Japanese deserved a NUCLEAR BOMB. You stupid bitch.......

The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't deserve to die. Though it sounds horrible, I think that they were just supremely unlucky. Nagasaki, especially; a city called Kokura was the primary target of the August 9 mission.

Let's examine the facts as they were perceived at the time. The United States had just finished the battle for Okinawa, and had suffered more than 12,000 dead. The Japanese Army lost more than 100,000 dead. Intelligence provided to President Harry Truman in July of 1945 indicated that the U.S. could expect in excess of 1 MILLION casualties during the invasion of Japan. Other information indicated that there were 9 MILLION Japanese, military and civilian,m armed and willing to fight. Based on experience, few would likely surrender.

So, it seems to me that the logical and reasonable point is that Harry Truman, the President of the United States, decided to kill 300,000 Japanese in order to save the lives of at least that many Americans, and countless other Japanese. It sounds rough, but there it is. War sucks.

[a. enders]

Interesting.Would the Russians have helped?after the **** storm they'd been through already?NEver gave that much thought at all,really.

And like the man already said,deserves got nothin' to do with it.But it was necessary.If the US had not atomized Hiroshima or Nagasaki,the war with Japan would have been as Viet Nam.Constant guerilla attacks and bombings,no doubt.

One thing you can say about Japan,when they do something,they sure as **** do it.

[James]

Vance how can you say 2 million dead, the war was over in Europe at this time for all we know the British, Canadians, Russians etc could've assisted too in an attack against Japan. For all we know Japan may have negeoiated, we cant say the what if's because it happened and 200,000 CIVILIANS died for nothing.....

Emperor Hirohito was inclined towards an end to the war before the atomic bombs were dropped, but the military resisted. On August 9, the military STILL resisted. It was not until August 14, 1945, that the issue was decided in Japan, after the two atomic bombs had been dropped. This is historical fact, not just my own little opinion. Japan would not have negotiated.

[duck]

The soviets waited until the nuclear bombs were dropped and attacked only when Japan was already surrendering, occupying large areas of China and almost making it to the japanese islands. In the end, they were able to occupy the kurile islands, which even today are a source of friction between the two countries. The russians would like to keep the islands but ask the japanese to pay for their inhabitants income. The people there are completely dependend on japanese donations and smuggling of fishery etc.

[James]

Argyll,

The atomic bomb wasn't used against Nazi Germany because the first test wasn't conducted until more than 2 months after VE day.

[Argyll]

I thought that Oppenheimer done tests in late 44/early 45?

[He219]

The killing of Innocent Civilians will always be a contentious issue. You can debate the merits all you want; the facts at the time were the following:

The Imperial Japanese Army under the Tojo Regieme wanted the war and were prepared to fight to the end. The Emperor was a virtual Hostage in his own Palace and a Military Coup at the very end almost succeeded in preventing the broadcast of the Emperors recorded Surrender announcement. The Japanese People would only respect the Emperor's Order to surrender, otherwise the Bushido code forbade surrender as dishonorable.


http://www.worldwar2database.com/photos/wwii1587.jpg

http://www.worldwar2database.com/photos/wwii1586.jpg

http://www.worldwar2database.com/photos/wwii1245.jpg

http://www.worldwar2database.com/photos/wwii1585.jpg


What is certain is that Japan was preparing the bloodiest reception ever for the Allies if they had invaded Honshu, the southernmost island in Japan. Truman would never have been able to hold office if he had a working weapon and choose not to use it. Also, the Alliance between the Western powers and the Soviets was growing tenuous after the fall of Germany; Truman, an unknown quantity to the Soviets, had to show he was unafraid to use a weapon of mass destruction, especially one that only the United States possessed at that time.
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/japansurrender.htm

[James]

I thought that Oppenheimer done tests in late 44/early 45?

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a uranium bomb, and it was only in 1945 that enough had been produced to make a weapon. By that time, Germany was on the ropes, and the bomb would have been wasted there - Fortresses, Liberators, and Lancasters had already done the job in spades. The design was believed workable based on testing and research, but it was never "live" tested until the actual bombing itself.

The bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki was a plutonium bomb. It was "live" tested at Alamagordo, New Mexico, on July 16, 1945.

[Argyll]

Thanks for the heads up!!
Off course Japan was about to "repell boarders",name one country that is not prepared to fight to the death.........okay leave france out of it!!
90% of Soveriegn states would put up some form of resistance.
If the US was going to be invaded by the Russians wouldn't you?

[budanski]

http://www.janesoceania.com/hawaii_pearl/arizona.jpg

If the Japanese had not launched a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor there wouldnt have been a need. What are they complaining about, the USA helped the Japanese become the first people in orbit, via the Enola Gay.

How about we criticize the Japanese on medical experiments on prisoners, the rape of Nanking, the bataan death march or Pearl Harbour? Does anyone doubt if Japan had the atomic bomb they wouldn't have used it on the US? They were pursuing nuclear technology themselves so this mayor ought to look at who was responsible for the war instead of blaming others and acting like a victim.

[a. enders]

Nah,Germany just got Dresden. :|

[usa320]

It was dead necessary. Invading Japan would have left more than 2-3 million dead, soldiers and civilian, on both sides.

[James]

I agree. Seeing what the results of the bombings very likely prevented a future nuclear war. It was just too horrible to contemplate.

Another thing - does anyone think it odd to become confrontational and point the finger of blame about history? How far back should we reach? I personally wasn't alive in 1945. Nor were my parents. That makes it a bit difficult for me to feel any responsibility for the events of August 1945. I think it is difficult even to say that the U.S. as it is now is responsible. We are a completely different country, as is Japan.

Perhaps someone should start a thread about responsibility for the "War of Northern Aggression, 1861-1865". Maybe I should start persecuting Hood, Argyll, martinexsquaddie, and some others from the UK, since some of my ancestors were driven out of Ireland in the 18th century.

Just a suggestion...

[He219]

Great thoughts, Tane Angle, especially on the latter part.

As for an 'Atomic Exhibition', I believe a stydy was done on the detonation of an Atomic device in Tokyo Harbor. The conclusion was, I believe, that much more devistation would have been wrought with the geographic features of the harbor and the shear mass of water that would have deluged the costal population. The Nagasaki Bomb actually drifted off target and the blast was minimized in the nearby hills reducinging the death toll substantially.

As a. enders wrote, Jimmy Doolittle's Dresden raid alone resulted in the deaths of approximately 150-175,000 civilians compared to the 71,879 at Hiroshima, neglecting radiation exposure and after-effects. My father told me his eyewitness accounts of 'thousands' of Men, Women & Children killed in Hamburg, mostly by asphyxiation in the hypoxic furnace-like environment of the Firestorms. The scenes were so horrific that mass graves were the only viable option to dispose of the carnage. There better not be anybody accusing me of being a warmongerer!

My two cents....

[Knave]

Op Olympic - the planned Invasion of Japan - had estimates of over a million Allied\American dead, and up to twenty times that many in Japanese dead - judging by the fact that Japanese "civilian soldiers" armed with bamboo spears were being trained to go up against American infantry. Japanese pilots were flying bomb-laden airplanes into Allied ships in the name of their Emperor - who they considered a near-God - in hopes of stemming the advance. Japanese civilians at Iwo Jima threw themselves from cliffs rather than live under American control. The Americans could have expected more of the same had they invaded Japan proper.

These were the indicators of a bloody campaign which awaited had the Allies gone through with Olympic. And that was the choice that Truman faced.

Truman decided to use the bomb; mostly to spare American lives, but with the added advantage of sparing Japanese lives. I've heard that the Japanese were invited to watch the Trinity test in New Mexico beforehand.... in the hopes that the demonstration would cow them into surrendering.

In the end, it took the Emperor's own horror about his people being killed by the horrific new American weapon - the Atom Bomb - to prompt him to force the Japanese to surrender; he knew that his personal word would be binding with his people - if he told the Japanese to surrender, they would. As I mentioned earlier, he was considered a near-God in Japanese culture.

[D.E. Watters]

FWIW: Hiroshima was capital of the Hiroshima prefecture (which included Kure) and also home to the 39th Army Division, whose members committed numerous atrocities in China. Nagasaki contained at minimum a Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works facility. Kokura was home to the Kokura Arsenal. (Kokura was the primary target for the 2nd A-bomb, but poor visibility spared it that day. It was later slated to receive the 3rd A-bomb once it was shipped to Tinnian.)

Don't forget that Japan had two seperate A-bomb projects going on. The Army started its program with the Institute of Physical and Chemical Research as far back as fall of 1940. The Navy's F-Go project started in Kyoto in 1942. (One of Sony's co-founders Akio Morita admittedly to being part of this project.) After B29 raids damaged the Army's project facility in April 1945, the program was moved to Hungnam (Konan) in northern Korea. Some historians now believe that at least one bomb was tested offshore near Hungnam on August 12, 1945, just shy of their surrender. FWIW: I've seen photos of captured cyclotrons being dumped into Tokyo Bay after the war. (Five were captured.) Uranium was obtained from China and even Germany. The German U-Boat U234 was one of the submarines (German and Japanese) that ferried German technology and materiel to Japan. After Germany surrendered in May 1945, the U234 surrendered itself and its cargo to the US Navy. Onboard was 560kg of uranium oxide. The captured uranium was shipped to Oak Ridge for processing, and some believe that some of the end product may have finallyfound its way to Japan via the Enola Gay or Bock's Car.

The Japanese had also stockpiled numerous aircraft and other suicide craft for use during an Allied invasion. One particular post-war photo has always made an impression on me. It showed a facility filled with many columns and rows of mini-subs and/or Kaiten (suicide torpedoes), appearing like so many sausages.

Of course, I'm glad that someone mentioned the attempted coup against the Emperor. Because of a blackout made necessary by a B29 raid passing nearby, an attempt failed to prevent the Emperor from leaving the palace grounds to record an announcement of the surrender. After the recording was made, one of the Emperor's manservants barely managed to hide the recording from troops controlled by the coup-plotters. If the recording was found, the Emperor probably would have suffered an 'accident'. End result: The war would have continued on.

Admittedly, I don't have a lot a sympathy for the Japanese after their long string of horrific war crimes during the war. In many ways, they made Hitler and Stalin look like mere Boy Scouts. Some have estimated that at least 30 million Chinese were killed during the Japanese occupation. The photo evidence from the "Rape of Nanking" alone is just god awful. Most these photos were made by Japanese troops, as souvenirs. At least 300,000 were massacred there soon after Japanese troops captured it. Then you have the massacre of nearly a quarter million Chinese in retaliation for the escape of the Doolittle Raiders. Things weren't much better in other Japanese occupied areas.

Look up Unit 731, and you'll find things that make Josef Mengele look like a rank amateur. Atrocities against Chinese civilians and imported Allied POWs (US, British, Aussie, and Russian) include vivesection of unanesthetized prisoners (captured B29 pilots became a particular favorite late in the war), grenade and bomb testing using live subjects, deliberate infliction of stravation, dehydration, frostbite, burns, and radiation posioning, transfusions with sea water and animal blood to test potential substitutes fo saline IV and human blood, endurance testing with centrifuges and pressure chambers to determine fatal limits, and others. Most importantly, there was an on-going biological warfare program which was used to attack Chinese cities: cholera, typhus, anthrax, bubonic plague, smallpox, tuberculosis, hemorragic fever, Hanta virus, botulism, and dozens more. In fact, there is evidence that the Japanese attempted to send bio-weapons for use against invading American troops on Saipan. Luckily, the submarine ferrying the cargo was sunk before the delivery. Bio-strikes were proposed against the continental US. Most wanted to deliver bio-agents via balloons similar to the on-going attacks of the West Coast with balloon-born fragmentation and incendiary bombs (Fu-Go Weapon/fusen bakudan). In another plan ("Cherry Blossoms at Night"), San Diego, CA was the intended target for a bio-strike via a sub-launched aircraft. This attack was scheduled for September of 1945. For that matter, Unit 731 wasn't alone; it is merely the most publicized. There were at least 25 other labs committing similar 'research' in China, with additional facilities in other captured territories. Other known bio-warfare labs include Units 80, 100, 1644, 1855, 2646, 8604, and 9420. Then there was Unit 516, a chemical warfare unit which produced weapons with the following chemicals: phosgene, hydrogen cyanide, bromobenzyl cyanide, chloroacetophenon, diphenyl-cyanoarsine, diphenylchloroarsine, arsenic trichloride, sulfur mustard, and lewisite.

The Japanese treatment of Allied prisoners was unconscionable. To give an example, 1.1% of the American POWs in German hands died during captivity. 37% of those captured by the Japanese did not survive. Plans were afoot to kill all Allied prisoners in Japanese control prior to surrender.

[martinexsquaddie]

Mini-nukes are the most irresponsible idea ever.
Nukes are ment to be the ultimate scary weapon.
trying to make them a weapon that is acceptable on the battlefield is a very stupid idea.
The Japanese have never really examined the history of WW11 and what there armed forces did. unlike the Germans and even the British with there Empire.
The Japanese begins and ends with we got nuked.
A few years ago one of there new history books nearly started a war with the rest of asia

[GazB]

"Interesting.Would the Russians have helped?after the **** storm they'd been through already?NEver gave that much thought at all,really. "

Most of their forces were obviously tied up on the Eastern front (which was their western front of course...) and that is where the greatest threat lay. Before the war in the late 30s the Japanese made a few probing attacks to the north into Russia... the commander they came up against was Zhukov and he gave them a thrashing at Gakolin Kol (Spelling). After that the Japanese lost interest in expansion that way and headed south instead. (They needed oil... and decided Indonesia was easier than Siberia)
After transfering to the East they made good progress and took Mongolia and most of china and the Kuril Islands before the Japanese surrendered.

The Soviets truely feared the Germans, but there was no great fear of Japan even though their navy had been defeated by them in 1905. I doubt if aninvasion of Japan were required that they would bother maintaining a presence in Japan. They didn't remain in China or Mongolia, or for that matter Austria. Their reasons for occupying eastern Europe was merely to ensure that East and west Germany remained divided and therefore too weak to do what they did again. The added by product of a buffer of other countries between you and a major rival was also a bonus.

If you feel sorry for those who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki then you'd also have to feel sorry for the firebomb attacks on Tokyo that killed over 200,000. In germany and Europe the vast number of stone and concrete buildings lead to the tactic of dropping HE first and then incendiaries... the HE blowing open houses and buildings and then the incendiaries setting the contents alight. In Tokyo... a city largely made of wood and paper the HE was not necessary and the firestorms created were far more effective than even the fire bombing of Dresden.

They killed millions of Chinese and treated the other asian groups very badly. Koreans and many other conquered countries supplied "comfort" women for the Japanese troops... which is a nice way of saying they forced them to ******ly satisfy the Japanese troops and travel with the Japanese troops.

Those responsible for the worst war crimes... as D.E. Watters pointed out bio weapons were tested on prisoners... 100 would be exposed to Anthrax and every day 5 would be "autopsied" to see how the disease was progressing through the bodies and records were kept. It would be the potential value of those records that meant that not only would there be no war crimes tribunal but those who purpetrated these crimes were given houses and jobs in return for not destroying their records and continuing the work (on animals of course).

But did they start the war?

Not according to George Bush jnr or the Aussie leader Howard. The US (among other countries) had imposed sanctions and blockades of Japan over its actions in the mid 30s in China, so in a way you could say the attack on Pearl Harbour was Preemptive Self Defence. Japan has lacked and still lacks natural resources like oil, and rubber etc etc. Such a blockade is more than commercial pressure... it wouldn't be a case of losing a bit of money, but the survival of the country.

"Mini-nukes are the most irresponsible idea ever."

I agree. I think Bush's plan to restart testing and design a new type of nuclear weapon to destroy deep bunkers etc would not only make the use of nuclear weapons more likely, but what if it failed to explode? Or what happens when the Russians and other nuclear nations feel they also have to have such a capability... its only fair isn't it? Such a weapon would be ideal for a terrorist.

Of course there is another reason why they didn't detonate a nuke in Tokyo harbour... it was theorised at the time that an isotope of hydrogen could be used for the purposes of fusion. The isotope they would use is called deturium and is found in abundance in normal seawater. There was a possibility that a fission weapon detonated in seawater might cause a sea wide (ie worldwide) chain reaction that would turn the worlds oceans into the core of the sun. (ie about 5 million degrees C... the surface is about 5,000 degrees C).

(Fission is when heavy atoms are split by the particles they release during natural radioactive decay. If you put enough together there are enough collisions to cause an explosion... every collision destroys some particles and releases energy... this releases more particles that hit other atoms etc etc... if the amount is large enough the chain reaction of collisions results in a huge amount of energy being released almost at once. The amount required for this chain reaction to lead to a nuclear explosion is called Critical Mass. If we assume critical mass for Uranium is .5 of a kilo and you build a bomb that has ten .3kg masses of U238 (enriched Uranium) and slam them together with a conventional HE explosion then for a split moment in time you will have 3kgs of Uranium. Obviously any time you have .5 of a kilo then you will have an explosion so if two .3kg lumps were to accidently hit each other first then the other 8 pieces will be blown away before the full sized 3kg mass has formed and you get a smaller bang than you thought.

Fusion is different. Instead of big atoms hitting each other and splitting, it is lots of small atoms (Hydrogen... which is one proton and one electron) bashing together so hard they stick and fuse together... forming a helium atom (ie two protons and two electrons).
When the Universe was formed there was mostly Hydrogen and a little helium. The Fusion process starts when you get a huge mass the size of a star... the pressure and heat caused by that much mass starts the fusion process. (Jupiter is largely hydrogen... if it was 3 or 4 times heavier its weight might have started fusion and our solar system would have had two suns...)
All matter that is not H or He was created in stars... including us.

The advantage of Fusion is there is no theoretical limit in power for a fusion bomb, the disadvantage is that the process does not start until you increase the deturium to several million degrees C. At the moment only a Fission explosion will do it in a weapon sized package.

Sorry for the Science lecture... :)

[Kitsune]

Sorry GazB.
But the idea that even at that time scientists (even american ones) could have thought that a nuclear fission bomb could have made the oceans hydrogen fusion is utterly ridicilous! Thats simply impossible.
But the bomb could have been demonstrated by letting it go off high in the air or throwing it on a desolate area in sight of a huge city...

There was also the idea that a nuclear bomb could incinerate the worlds atmospheric oxygen...turning our planet into a torch. But the first bomb test showed that this did not happen. :D

Always good to make sure first... ;)

[RealUltimatePower]

Well here's my two cents on it. I think one of the Air Force generals in charge of the dropping of the atom bomb put it best. "Of course as a soldier you think about the moral implications of what you are doing, but all war is immoral in some way. If you let that bother you then you can't be a good soldier." The atom bombs we dropped on Japan killed hundreds of thousands yes. The leaders at the time knew it would and that most of those killed would have been civilians. But they also knew that if we launched a full scale invasion of Japan cassualties would have been A LOT higher. And most of those people we might've spared in those two cities would have died in the invasion.
But we cannot sit here and debate what our grandparents should have done. Because back then civilians were ligitimate targets. And it was a global war where we had powerful enemies. Unlike a gulf war or a police action in Kosovo.
And the two cities did have military targets within them. And since there were no JDAMs at the time it would have resulted in civilian casualties anyways. So yea we killed civilians, we did it in Dresdin as well with fire bombing. And the Germans commited mass genocide, and the Japanesse killed POWs and civilians as well. Let's just face it, it was a bloody aweful war, but you can't fight and win without pissing someone off.

[vryhpyammoadded]

The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't deserve to die. Though it sounds horrible, I think that they were just supremely unlucky. Nagasaki, especially; a city called Kokura was the primary target of the August 9 mission.

Let's examine the facts as they were perceived at the time. The United States had just finished the battle for Okinawa, and had suffered more than 12,000 dead. The Japanese Army lost more than 100,000 dead. Intelligence provided to President Harry Truman in July of 1945 indicated that the U.S. could expect in excess of 1 MILLION casualties during the invasion of Japan. Other information indicated that there were 9 MILLION Japanese, military and civilian,m armed and willing to fight. Based on experience, few would likely surrender.

So, it seems to me that the logical and reasonable point is that Harry Truman, the President of the United States, decided to kill 300,000 Japanese in order to save the lives of at least that many Americans, and countless other Japanese. It sounds rough, but there it is. War sucks.

I agree with the above stated argument.

Let’s also not forget the massive B-29 firebomb attacks that killed even more civilians than both atomic bombs combined. I’ve heard estimates that one attack incinerated over 170,000 people in Tokyo. And, then there are the effects of the naval blockade.

Remember WWII was a total industrial war. I also think there was no hope of any conditional surrender. In total war all citizens are considered combatants in that they are the means of production and the true source of a nations will, even Tojo’s. In total war, we are all valid targets.

As for the comments about Bush, I see no difference in being fried by radiation, eaten by enzymes, dissolved by chemicals or blown to bits by shrapnel. It all results in suffering and death. Blasting a few hundred thousand people into oblivion is just as horrible as marching them off to death camps or taxing them 100% so they starve to death.
I do not wish to see events like this happen so; I see no problem in continuing Atomic R&D to better destroy those who desire harm upon the human race.
A nuke is an efficient and portable means of mass destruction. It is simply another weapon of war although; the psychological effect and the mystique of the bomb make for a very useful tool of deterrence for total war. The price of failure is quite high so I’m all in favor of limiting there ownership to one country ;-)

[Haiw]

newsflash: the amount of people that died from the atomic bombs was actually relaitively LOW....the only reason it is so well-known was, of course that it was caused by 1 bomb and that that bomb was a nuclear one....just some facts to keep u awake at night:

-march 10 1945, an attack on Tokyo with firebombs (first attack that used napalm) changed 25 square kilometers of Tokyo in a big firestorm...more than 100 000 people died and another 100 000 people were wounded... thats casualties than from either atomic bomb

several of those attacks were executed...another one of em flattened 18 square km of Yokohama, and the list goes on..if u compare the amount of casualties of the 'regular' bombing ot the casualties of the nuclear bombing, its actually amazing theres always sucha big fuzz about the nuclear bombs while u hardly hear anything at all about the firebombing, etc.

[martinexsquaddie]

nuclear bombs are the ultimate nightmare weapon.
trying to make them acceptable is really a bad ideA

[DixieDude]

Like i've heard before on this forum, the "spliting of the atom" was enevitable. It was simply a race of who could do it first. We won that race.

I feel sorrow for what happened to the ppl of Japan that died when the bombs fell, but look at was has come out of it. They stopped their march toward taking over the world with Germany and Italy because of what we did. They are now a prosperous nation. Think what could have happend if the Axis powers had nuclear capiblilties and we didn't....we wouldn't be here today.... .

Just my thoughts.