Catalan protesters rally for greater autonomy in Spain

[MGL:s Reconstructors]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10588494.stm

why couldn´t Spain accept Catalans as a nation? on the other hand Canada did accept Quebec nation with out problem

[Steak-Sauce]

Quebec is a nation? Since when?

[Ordie]

Just watch, those same protestors will come out in red and waving Spanish Flags when Spain wins the World Cup.

I don't care for Catalan nationalist. The speak Castillian (Spanish) among themselves and switch to Catalan when approaching.

[MGL:s Reconstructors]

Quebec is a nation? Since when?
The House of Commons has overwhelmingly passed a motion recognizing Québécois as a nation within Canada.
Conservatives, most Liberal MPs, the NDP and the Bloc voted 266 to 16 in support of the controversial motion, which earlier in the day had prompted the resignation of Michael Chong as intergovernmental affairs minister

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/nation-vote.html#ixzz0tNK6oe8b

[psb1]

The speak Castillian (Spanish) among themselves and switch to Catalan when approaching.

Same in Ireland - Gaelic would be a dead(er) language if not for politics....

[MGL:s Reconstructors]

Same in Ireland - Gaelic would be a dead(er) language if not for politics....

the Catalan language is now used in politics, education and the Catalan media, including the newspapers Avui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avui) ("Today"), El Punt ("The Point") and El Periódico de Catalunya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Peri%C3%B3dico_de_Catalunya) (sharing content with its Spanish release and with El Periòdic d'Andorra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Peri%C3%B2dic_d%27Andorra), printed in Andorra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra)); and the television (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television) channels of Televisió de Catalunya (TVC): TV3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV3_%28Catalonia%29), the main channel, and Canal 33 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_33)/K3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K3_%28television%29) (culture and cartoons channel) as well as a 24-hour news channel 3/24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3/24) and the TV series channel 300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_300); in València Canal 9, 24/9 and Punt 2; in the Balearic islands IB3; there are also many local channels available in region in Catalan, such as BTV and 8TV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8TV_%28Catalonia%29) (in the metropolitan area of Barcelona), Barça TV, Canal L'Hospitalet (L'Hospitalet de Llobregat), Canal Terrassa (Terrassa), Televisió de Sant Cugat TDSC (Sant Cugat del Vallès), Gandia Televisió (Gandia, Valencian Country), Televisió de Mataró TVM (Mataró) and Catalan-dubbed television programs.

doesn´t look like a dead language 2 me

[tattooman]

Is not a dead language, the problem is they want to make mandatory to the rest of spanish living here. Im catalan I speak catalan with my family our sons learn catalan in the school, but if one person from Madrid or Sevilla or Bilbao come to here, they (nationalist) forced to use catalan when here we have a common language called spanish or castillian. For example one law penalty the shopkeepers if they haven´t the posters and signs in catalan, only spanish its a fault!!

[Connaught Ranger]

I have one simple question:-

Can Catalan provide for its citizens (Health, social amenities, Police, Fire-Brigade, Military)

free of looking for hand-outs from the Spanish tax-payers?

I think it only fair once they go out, they go out of the E.U. and have to apply for membership

from scratch.

Connaught Ranger.

[Ataman]

I have one simple question:-

Can Catalan provide for its citizens (Health, social amenities, Police, Fire-Brigade, Military)

free of looking for hand-outs from the Spanish tax-payers?

I think it only fair once they go out, they go out of the E.U. and have to apply for membership

from scratch.

Connaught Ranger.

AFAIK Catalonia is one of the richest regions of Spain.

[BorisA]

I don't care for Catalan nationalist. The speak Castillian (Spanish) among themselves and switch to Catalan when approaching.

Bullsh1t. They are serious about it...so much that you just want to punch them sometimes.

[Ordie]

Bullsh1t. They are serious about it...so much that you just want to punch them sometimes.

My experience is anecdotal.

I was at a hotel in Beijing. The people sitting at the next table during breakfast spoke Castillian (Spanish). I leaned over and introduced myself in Latin American Spanish. Then soon afterwards they switched to Catalan.

Very rude.

[BorisA]

Very rude.

They are, the Prussians of Spain. My old concierge always responsed in catalan, even if it meant for him to clock out 30 minutes later and to get in trouble with his wife....

[MGL:s Reconstructors]

I have one simple question:-

Can Catalan provide for its citizens (Health, social amenities, Police, Fire-Brigade, Military)

free of looking for hand-outs from the Spanish tax-payers?

I think it only fair once they go out, they go out of the E.U. and have to apply for membership

from scratch.

Connaught Ranger. Catalonia can provide its citizens with everything ...

In 2008 the regional GDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) of Catalonia was €216.9 billion ($314.4 billion) and per capita GDP was €30,700 - similar to that of countries such as the United Kingdom or Austria. However, it is the fourth per capita GDP in Spain, considerably behind the Basque Country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_%28autonomous_community%29) (€34,100), Madrid (autonomous community) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_%28autonomous_community%29) (€34,100) and Navarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navarra) (32,900€), [36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-35)[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-36) In this year, the GDP growth was 3.7%,[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-37). In the context of the 2008 financial crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_financial_crisis), Catalonia is expected to suffer a recession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession) amounting to almost a 2% contraction of its regional GDP in 2009[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-38)
The main tourist destinations in Catalonia are the city of Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona), the beaches of the Costa Brava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Brava) at Girona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girona) and the Costa Daurada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Daurada) at Tarragona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarragona). In the Pyrenees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenees) there are several ski resorts.
Many savings banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_bank) are based in Catalonia: 10 of the 46 Spanish savings banks are Catalan and "La Caixa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Caixa)" is Europe's premier savings bank [40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-39)private bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_bank) in Catalonia is Banc Sabadell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banc_Sabadell), now fourth of the Spanish private banks.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#cite_note-40) The first
The stock market of Barcelona, which in 2004 traded almost €205,000 million [citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]., is the second largest of Spain after Madrid, and Fira de Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fira_de_Barcelona&action=edit&redlink=1) organizes international exhibitions and congresses to do with different sectors of the economy.
The main economic cost for the Catalan families is the purchase of a house. According to daof ta the Society of Appraisal on the 31 December 2005 Catalonia is, after Madrid, the second most expensive region in Spain for housing: 3,397 €/m² on average.

[boreal]

They are, the Prussians of Spain. My old concierge always responsed in catalan, even if it meant for him to clock out 30 minutes later and to get in trouble with his wife....

hahahahaha you are drunk or something like that?

[TheEvian100]

I honestly never understood why Spain in the 80's went for devolution of the country. One way or another these supposedly "democratic" moves only lead to division and seccession.

[Ordie]

I honestly never understood why Spain in the 80's went for devolution of the country. One way or another these supposedly "democratic" moves only lead to division and seccession.

Devolution is smoking mirrors.

They switch their political capital from Madrid to Brussels.

I'd bet they're partying in Barcelona's Plaza Espana tonight waving Spanish flags.

[TheEvian100]

They switch their political capital from Madrid to Brussels.

I bet there are people in EU and Catalonia region that may have such dreams. But I sure hope Spain and its people together won't let that happen, already thet seem to have let enough power go to such regions. In the UK and Germany for instance I have seen advertisements of the "goverment of Catalunya" inviting tourists to visit their region...

[Ordie]

I bet there are people in EU and Catalonia region that may have such dreams. But I sure hope Spain and its people together won't let that happen, already thet seem to have let enough power go to such regions. In the UK and Germany for instance I have seen advertisements of the "goverment of Catalunya" inviting tourists to visit their region...

There are merits towards devolution where local control can have a better handle of things. But demanding independence creates a bigger issue.

[TheEvian100]

There are merits towards devolution where local control can have a better handle of things. But demanding independence creates a bigger issue.

Eh, Exactly. If nation states start giving up sovereignty to "regions", "prefectures", or "counties", etc. the domino effect for Europe will be unbearable.

[Ordie]

Eh, Exactly. If nation states start giving up sovereignty to "regions", "prefectures", or "counties", etc. the domino effect for Europe will be unbearable.

Don't worry, they can always go to Brussels and ask for money, aid, currency, passports, protection and have Catalan or Flemish as an official EU Language.

Which brings up another issue, where the hell will you find a Flemish-Catalan interpreter in these meetings?

[Soldat_Américain]

Over a period of two hundred years how many times did Catalan trade hands between the Spanish and the British?

[DaveDash]

Over a period of two hundred years how many times did Catalan trade hands between the Spanish and the British?

My history might be rusty here, but not many? Are you thinking of Gibraltar?

[Soldat_Américain]

My history might be rusty here, but not many? Are you thinking of Gibraltar?

No I'm thinking Mallorca...maybe I'm rusty but I'm pretty sure it changed hands quite a few times...as if routine.

[tattooman]

Not Mallorca, Menorca a little island in Balearic Islands. Captured in 1708 recaptured by spanish 1782 captured again by the british in 1798 and returned in 1802.

[Soldat_Américain]

For some reason I thought the entire Balearic Islands did. Guess those Patrick O'Brien books weren't too accurate. But you are definitely correct.

[Ordie]

Over a period of two hundred years how many times did Catalan trade hands between the Spanish and the British?

It was the Catalans that explored and settled California in the late 1700's

Fra. Junipero Serra, and Capt. Gaspar de Portola.

[tattooman]

Yes if you are interested in history i have a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Company_of_Volunteers_of_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Portol%C3%A0

[IconOfEvi]

No I'm thinking Mallorca...maybe I'm rusty but I'm pretty sure it changed hands quite a few times...as if routine.

A little earlier than that...back in days before Spanish reunification...yeah.

[BorisA]

hahahahaha you are drunk or something like that?

I wish I would be. And i wish even more so that i could gain back the time I lost while trying to understand what he was saying with my back then humble spanish.

[futurepilot2004]

Same in Ireland - Gaelic would be a dead(er) language if not for politics....

Gaelic isnt a language, its a name for a group of languages including Irish, scottish, manx etc

[Sarig]

I honestly never understood why Spain in the 80's went for devolution of the country. One way or another these supposedly "democratic" moves only lead to division and seccession.

Yeah, how dare they give people the autonomy they want. That is just wholly undemocratic, isn't it?

[Titani]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10588494.stm

why couldn´t Spain accept Catalans as a nation? on the other hand Canada did accept Quebec nation with out problem

Because Spain wants to establish only one nation, theirs. And Canada and Spain are very different...

[Titani]

Just watch, those same protestors will come out in red and waving Spanish Flags when Spain wins the World Cup.

I don't care for Catalan nationalist. The speak Castillian (Spanish) among themselves and switch to Catalan when approaching.
Not right, they speak Catalan among themselves, some of them speak Spanish aswell.

[Ordie]

Not right, they speak Catalan among themselves, some of them speak Spanish aswell.

My apologies, my experience was anecdotal and may not be the norm.

Either I just have bad experiences with Spanish regionalist. Or they don't care for Latin Americans in general.

From my Dad's Argentine point of view, all Spaniards are Gallegos, all Jews are Russians, all Italians are Neapolitans, and all Arabs are Turks . (Sarcasm)

[boreal]

My apologies, my experience was anecdotal and may not be the norm.

Either I just have bad experiences with Spanish regionalist. Or they don't care for Latin Americans in general.

From my Dad's Argentine point of view, all Spaniards are Gallegos, all Jews are Russians, all Italians are Neapolitans, and all Arabs are Turks . (Sarcasm)

You don´t have to apology for nothing, spanish is mainly spoken in Cataluña, like in the rest of Spain.

[sepheronx]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10588494.stm

why couldn´t Spain accept Catalans as a nation? on the other hand Canada did accept Quebec nation with out problem

What?

Quebec is not a nation on its own, but a province. They tried to gain autonomy (Bloc Quebecois) but they failed to do so. They are just an French speaking province, but have to also have English as well.

[tea drinker]

Same in Ireland - Gaelic would be a dead(er) language if not for politics....
99% true, a few die hards in the Gaeltacht would still speak it regardless of circumstance :)
Effectively it is dead, though I suppoose it is quaint to have it as part of a cultural thing.

The Catalan thing, are the gains of separation really more then the downsides? These things are often inflamed by a couple of fundamentalist types, who usually personally benefit from the separation.
As they already have armed and violent groups I am not too inclined to support this.
OTOH if Spain is better of without this restless group they might let them go their merry way.
Soon, global village, just not the way they told you it would happen p-)

[Titani]

My apologies, my experience was anecdotal and may not be the norm.

Either I just have bad experiences with Spanish regionalist. Or they don't care for Latin Americans in general.

From my Dad's Argentine point of view, all Spaniards are Gallegos, all Jews are Russians, all Italians are Neapolitans, and all Arabs are Turks . (Sarcasm)
Don't worry, no offense taken. ;) Just to notice that a lot of Catalans use the catalan with absolutely normality, and that would be more a matter of education and respect instead of nationality.

Also the Catalans are known as Polish for the (rest) Spaniards.

[shilka234]

Never have we more needed leaders who make a difference.

[IconOfEvi]

I say, if Catalans want to do this, they should declare independence, not autonomy. They want the benefits of the central government, but not the costs/culture.

[Ordie]

I say, if Catalans want to do this, they should declare independence, not autonomy. They want the benefits of the central government, but not the costs/culture.

They would end up switching thier dependency from Madrid to Brussels subsidized by Germans.

[Titani]

I say, if Catalans want to do this, they should declare independence, not autonomy. They want the benefits of the central government, but not the costs/culture.

In fact, independence was the main claim in the demonstration. Now we would need that the Catalan politicians will be up to task, something that looks like more difficult...

[tattooman]

Not right, they speak Catalan among themselves, some of them speak Spanish aswell.

From wiki:

According to the most recent linguistic census held by the Government of Catalonia as of 2009[update] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catalonia&action=edit), a plurality claims Spanish as "their own language" (37.26% Catalan compared to 46.53% Spanish). In everyday use, 11,95% of the population claim to use both languages equally, while 35,54% use mainly Catalan and 45,92% use mainly Spanish.

Some nationalist play the card of purity here, if you dont have catalan ancestors you aren´t pure catalan.

[Titani]

From wiki:

According to the most recent linguistic census held by the Government of Catalonia as of 2009[update] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catalonia&action=edit), a plurality claims Spanish as "their own language" (37.26% Catalan compared to 46.53% Spanish). In everyday use, 11,95% of the population claim to use both languages equally, while 35,54% use mainly Catalan and 45,92% use mainly Spanish.

Some nationalist play the card of purity here, if you dont have catalan ancestors you aren´t pure catalan.

Correct, we're saying the same. ;)

[~Berdan]

Just little linguistic question:Can Spanish speakers understand Catalan language?They supposed to be be related,no?Or I'm mistaken?

[SiEMpre_Leal]

My experience is anecdotal.

I was at a hotel in Beijing. The people sitting at the next table during breakfast spoke Castillian (Spanish). I leaned over and introduced myself in Latin American Spanish. Then soon afterwards they switched to Catalan.

Very rude.

Probably knew u were mexican lol jp

[Ataman]

Just little linguistic question:Can Spanish speakers understand Catalan language?They supposed to be be related,no?Or I'm mistaken?

AFAIK it's almost the same, so yes. Maybe not every single word, but generally yes. That's at least what some people told me.

[AttilaA]

To my knowledge Catalan and Spanish are two whole different language, altough being in the same Romance language group.

[brainplay]

This isn't something new. Ancestors came from Basque country which has it's own language and has been trying to declare independence for a while. Although a terrorist group has spawned from it and going about things rather violently....

Neither one is going to happen. Spain's not going to let two groups attempting to slide back into tribal divides break up the nation. Castillian blood and Catalan blood has intermixed for way too long to be anything beyond that.

[Ordie]

Castillian blood and Catalan blood has intermixed for way too long to be anything beyond that.

Is Basque blood still "Rh -"?

[IconOfEvi]

Basques always made me scratch my head. Where the **** did they come from p-). Language totally unrelated to the Indo-American tree (technically me, with my blood in India, have more in common linguistically with a Spaniard than a Basque), or ANY tree. They're like the Ainu, no one knows how the **** they got there.

(Random unrelated fact. Mt Fuji is named for the Ainu goddess of fire)

[Titani]

Just little linguistic question:Can Spanish speakers understand Catalan language?They supposed to be be related,no?Or I'm mistaken?

An important number of Spanish speakers understand Catalan, and in Catalonia all of them understand Catalan (or at least it is supposed to be).Spanish and Catalan are very related. For example I barely remember I read somewhere that were comparing Romance languages, were they stated that Portuguese and Spanish are similar in a ~90%, Spanish and Catalan about a 80%, also were comparing them to Italian, with a similar rate of similarity.For example I (catalan speaker) can understand almost all Portuguese and Galician, and can understand very good Aranese language (Occitan), and can understand quite good Italian, so I would compare that a Spanish speaker could understand Catalan as I can understand Portuguese, or something between Portuguese and Italian, depending on the accent.Then there are other Spanish speakers that understand Catalan but they reject to recognise it.