List of Polish-German and Polish-Russian military conflicts

[Domen]

Most people only know the September Campaign and the partitions.

But in fact there were over 80 wars and smaller conflicts between these countries in history.

Here is the list of these conflicts:

Introduction:

First half of 10th century - Poland emerges on the political map of Europe as a state.

Around 960 - duke Mieszko I, the first fully historical ruler of Poland, begins to rule in Poland.

966 - Polish duke Mieszko I decides to baptise himself in order, among other reasons, to avoid German and other Christian "converting" invasions.

1) List of Polish-German military conflicts (in total 40 wars and smaller conflicts):

The uprising of the Slavic tribe Wkrzanie against German occupation (954) - according to historian H. Łowmiański, Polish forces provided support to Wkrzanie
Lausitz-Polish war - Markgraf of Lausitz Hodo invades Poland and the battle of Cedynia is fought (972) - Poland completely defeats the invaders
1st Polish-German war - Poland invaded by emperor Otton II (979) - Poland repulses the invaders
2nd Polish-German war (1002 - 1005) - treaty of Poznan; draw unfavourable for Poland (German advance stopped but some territory lost)
3rd Polish-German war (1007 - 1013) - treaty of Merseburg; Polish victory
4th Polish-German war and the decisive battle of Bautzen won by Polish forces (1014 / 1015 - 1018) - Poland captures Lausitz and Meissen - treaty of Bautzen; Polish victory
5th Polish-German war (1028 - 1031) - Poland vs Germany (later Kievan Rus joined as German ally) - Polish forces invade Saxony, but combined German-Russian counterattack in 1031 defeats them, Poland lost some territory to the Russians, Germany recaptured all previously lost territories
6th Polish-German war (1109) - German forces invade Poland but are repulsed
7th Polish-German war (1157) - German forces invade Silesia, burn the castle of Glogow and advance into the province of Greater Poland; but then peace treaty is signed - draw
Brandenburgian Invasion of Western Pomerania (1180) - Brandenburgians occupy Western Pomerania
2nd Lausitz-Polish war (1209 - 1211) - Polish victory
1st Polish-Thuringen war (1225 - 1230) - Polish victory
1st Polish-Brandenburg war (1238 - 1240) - Polish victory
1st Greater Poland-Brandenburg war (1247 - 1252) - Polish victory
2nd Greater Poland & Pomerelia vs Brandenburg war (1265 - 1273) - Polish victory
Polish Invasion of Santok against Brandenburg and the battle of Mysliborz (1278) - Polish victory
Brandenburgian Invasion of Rogozno (1296) - Brandenburgian victory
Brandenburgian Invasion of Gdansk (1308) - Brandenburgian victory
1st Polish-Teutonic war (1308 - 1309) - Teutons capture Gdansk, Teutonic victory
Polish-Brandenburg combats in Greater Poland (1316) - Brandenburgians repulsed
2nd Polish-Teutonic war (1327 - 1332) - Teutons and their allies - Czechs - repulsed in the battles of Plowce and near Kalisz
Brandenburgian Invasion of Santok and Drezdenko (1370) - Brandenburg recaptures Santok and Drezdenko
3rd Polish-Teutonic war ("The Great War") (1409 - 1411) - Teutons defeated at Grunwald, Polish-Lithuanian decisive victory
4th Polish-Teutonic war ("The Hunger War") (1414) - Polish victory, Polish forces invade and plunder the Teutonic state
5th Polish-Teutonic war (1431 - 1435) - Polish victory
6th Polish-Teutonic war ("The Thirteen Years War") (1454 - 1466) - Polish decisive victory, Poland recaptures Gdansk and Pomerelia
7th Polish-Teutonic war (1519 - 1521) - Polish final victory, the Teutonic state is destroyed, Poland captures Warmia
Battle of Byczyna (1588) - fought against Austrian forces but commanded by Maximilian III Habsburg "der Deutschmeister" - Polish victory, Austrian forces repulsed
The 2nd Northern War - the treaty of Malbork on 25.06.1656, Brandenburg joins the anti-Polish alliance; the treaties of Welawa on 19.09.1657 and Bydgoszcz on 06.11.1657 - Brandenburg abandons the anti-Polish coalition and enters into an anti-Swedish alliance with Poland - The war was Polish pyrrhic victory over Sweden and her allies
The Kosciuszko Insurrection (1794) - Poland vs Russia (later Prussia joined as Russian ally) - Polish defeat, in 1795 Poland as a fully independent state perishes from the map of Europe divided by Russia, Austria and Prussia
1st Greater Poland Uprising (1806) - Polish victory, Greater Poland liberated from German rule and then welcomes entering forces of Napoleon
The Polish-Prussian war of 1806 - 1807 (Polish forces support forces of Napoleon) - Polish victory
The Polish-Austrian war of 1809 and the battle of Raszyn - Polish victory, lands occupied by Austria in 1795 return to the Duchy of Warsaw
2nd Greater Poland Uprising ("Poznan Uprising") (1848) - Polish insurgents are defeated
3rd Greater Poland Uprising (1918 - 1919) - Polish insurgents are victorious, Germans are repulsed from Greater Poland
1st Silesian Uprising (1919) - Polish insurgents are defeated
2nd Silesian Uprising (1920) - Polish insurgents are victorious
3rd Silesian Uprising (1921) - Polish insurgents hold their territorial gains, Upper Silesia becomes part of Poland
The Invasion of Poland (1939) - Poland vs III Reich (later the USSR joined as German ally) - Polish army is defeated by combined Nazi-Soviet forces
World War 2 (1939 - 1945) - Poland is among victorious countries, Polish army in exile fought on many frontlines against the Nazi Germany

-------------------------

And here the list of Polish - Russian conflicts:

2) List of Polish-Russian military conflicts (in total 46 - 47 wars and smaller conflicts):

At the beginning most of Polish-Russian wars were small conflicts, but in a later period they were very devastating:

Russian Invasion of Grody Czerwienskie region in eastern Poland (981) - Russian forces capture Grody Czerwienskie, Russian victory
Polish Recapture of Grody Czerwienskie and Invasion of Kiev (1018 - 1019) - Polish forces win the battle of Wolyn and capture Kiev
4th Polish-German war (1028 - 1031) - Poland vs Germany (later Kievan Rus joined as German ally) - see the result above
1st Polish Invasion of Rus (1069) - Polish forces capture Kiev for the 2nd time, dethronize Kievian ruler and enthrone a new one
2nd Polish Invasion of Rus (1077) - Polish forces capture Kiev for the 3rd time, dethronize Kievian ruler and enthrone a new one
Russian Invasion of the Polish borderland (1092) - Russians and Kipchak people invade Poland and plunder some areas but are finally repulsed
Invasion of Poland by Wolodymyrek of Halych-Wolhynia (1124) - Halych-Wolhynian forces defeated by Polish forces
1st Polish Invasion of Halych - Poles capture Przemysl (1124) - Polish victory
Russian Invasion of Mazovia (1142) - Russian forces plunder some parts of Mazovia but cannot capture any town or castle
Polish-Russian war for the city of Brzesc and the battle of Belz (1180 - 1183) - inconclusive conflict
2nd Polish Invasion of Halych-Wolhynia (1189) - Halych-Wolhynia suffered heavy losses but Polish forces repulsed
3rd Polish Invasion of Halych-Wolhynia (1199) - Halych-Wolhynia plundered but Polish forces finally withdraw
2nd Invasion of Poland by Halych-Wolhynia and the battle of Zawichost (1205) - Russian forces completely defeated
3rd Polish Invasion of Rus (1207) - Polish forces plunder some territories but are repulsed
Polish Invasion of Wlodzimierz Wolynski (1214) - Polish forces plunder some territories and withdraw
Invasion of Daniel duke of Wlodzimierz Wolynski against Poland (1218) - Russian invasion repulsed
Three Polish-Hungarian Invasions of Rus (1219 - 1221) - Ruthenian forces seriously shaken
Mazovian - Halych-Wolhynian war and the battle of Czerwien (1236) - Polish (Mazovian) forces are defeated and have to withdraw
Polish-Halych-Wolhynian war and the battle of Gozlice (1280) - Ruthenian-Tartar forces are defeated by Polish forces
4th Polish-Hungarian Invasion of Rus (1323) - Polish-Hungarian forces conquer the entire south-western Rus
The war for the Duchy of Halych-Wolhynia (1340 - 1392) - Poland & Hungary vs Lithuania & Tatars & Halych-Wolhynia - Poland gains control over Halych-Wolhynia
1st war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow (1500 - 1503) - Muscovite forces capture some territories of Lithuania, Lithuanian-Polish defeat
2nd war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow and the battle of Orsza (1507 - 1508) -the battle and the entire war is inconclusive, but Moscow has some territorial gains
3rd war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow, the 2nd battle of Orsza and the battle of Polock (1512 - 1522) - Muscovite forces completely defeated in the 2nd battle of Orsza
4th war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow (1534 - 1537) - war is inconclusive, Poland-Lithuania capture Homel while Russia capture Siebiez, peace treaty is signed in Moscow in 1537
1st Northern War (1558 - 1570) - Poland gains almost entire Livonia, the outcome of this war is favourable for Poland
Russian Invasion of Livonia (1575) - Russian forces capture most of Livonia
1st Polish-Russian war (1577 - 1582) - Poles counterattack, recapture entire Livonia, capture some Russian territories including two mighty castles
1st "Dymitriada" - Polish Invasion of Russia (1604 - 1606) - This attack causes chaos in Russian political circles
2nd "Dymitriada" - Polish Invasion of Russia, (1607 - 1610) - Inconclusive, the full scale Polish-Russian war starts as the result of this event
2nd Polish-Russian war (Russia supported by Sweden) and the battle of Klushino (1609 - 1612), Russian and Swedish armies completely defeated near Klushino, Polish forces capture Moscow for 2 years
3rd Polish-Russian war and the battle of Smolensk (1632 - 1634) - Polish forces are victorious at Smolensk, the entire war is Polish victory
4th Polish-Russian war, part of the 2nd Northern War (1654 - 1667) - Russian invasion - after many bloody battles Polish forces repulse Russian forces back to their motherland
War of the Polish Succession (1733 - 1738) - the treaty of Vienna is signed, as the result of this war Russia gains influence on Polish politics
Bar Confederation (1768 - 1772) - Bar Confederation is defeated by "Polish royalists" supported by Russia, this leads to the first partition of Poland
Polish-Russian war in defence of the 3rd May Constitution (1792) - Polish forces surrender because the Polish king betrayed and started to support the Russians - the Constitution is abolished, this leads to the 2nd partition of Poland
The Kosciuszko Insurrection (1794) - Poland vs Russia (later Prussia joined as Russian ally) - The insurgents are defeated, this leads to the 3rd and final partition of Poland
Napoleonic Wars - Poland supporting Napoleon against Russia (1797 - 1814) - Poles share the fate of their ally Napoleon, the Duchy of Warsaw in Central Poland now becomes the autonomic and semi-independent Kingdom of Poland (Congress Poland), under Russian influence
November Uprising and the subsequent Polish-Russian War (1830 - 1831) - After bloody war regular army of the semi-independent Kingdom of Poland (Congress Poland) is defeated, despite many victorious battles and heavy losses suffered by the Russians - the defeat was suffered because of incompetence of some Polish political leaders and high military commanders
January Uprising (1863 - 1864) - Insurgents stood no real chance and were defeated
Siberian Uprising (1866) - Insurgents defeated in the battle of Miszycha
Lodz Uprising (1905) - Insurgents defeated
World War 1 - Polish Legions supporting Austria against Russia (1914 - 1918) - Polish victory
Polish-Bolshevik war and the battle of Warsaw (1919 - 1921) - Polish decisive victory, Polish independence is preserved, Red Army shattered
The Invasion of Poland (1939) - Poland vs III Reich (later the USSR joined as German ally) - see above; Polish defeat
Anti-Communist Armed Resistance in Poland (1944 - 1963) - Insurgents are wiped out by Polish pro-Communist and Soviet forces by 1963

=============================

Solidarity Movement and Anti-Communist Resistance in the 1980s - Polish victory, in 1989 Communism in Poland is abolished

[JCR]

Can't wait for the next round ;)

Seriously, what do you actually want to archive by such posts?

[Domen]

Just provide interesting information.

And I posted this here because on another forum we were discussing in a thread named "Your country's worst historical enemy". Everybody knows that for Poland it would probably be either Russia or Germany. So just out of simple curiosity I decided to count against which country Poland fought more in its history - against Germany or against Russia. In turns out that it fought more against Russia than against Germany.

I use to copy my posts from one forum to another forum if I think that they can start an interesting discussion or are interesting in general (like many forum posters do, for example David Lehmann who is registered on this forum too and used to copy here his own posts concerning the battle of France in 1940 from other - purely history / historical - forums :) ).

I spent some time on researching this. If you want to ask about details on each of these conflicts then ask.

[Dexx]

Can't wait for the next round ;)

Seriously, what do you actually want to archive by such posts?

What do you expect from Polish nationalists? It is obvious (see his thread about Sweden and Poland). Everyone thinks that Poland always got crushed by either German or Russian forces and thus the Polish nationalists must redeem Poland today via hard fought internet battles (see the wikipedia edit wars). It is the same wave the Kaczinski twins rode on and why the Battle of Tannenberg (1410) is still so important for the collective mind of Poles.

[Stormz_STA]

What do you expect from Polish nationalists? It is obvious (see his thread about Sweden and Poland). Everyone thinks that Poland always got crushed by either German or Russian forces and thus the Polish nationalists must redeem Poland today via hard fought internet battles. It is the same wave the Kaczinski twins rode on and why the Battle of Tannenberg (1410) is still so important for the collective mind of Poles.

LOL.
Spoken like a true German, patronizing as always.

[Domen]

I'm not nationalist.

On the other hand - I saw (and discussed with) many German nationalists on Feldgrau.net and Axis History.com forums.

As I wrote there is a thread "Your country's worst historical enemy" on another forum in which I participated some time ago:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=230857

I copied my post from that forum to this forum.

-----------------------------

Edit:

Oh, Dexx is here.

Dexx wrote in some thread that "Grunwald was the last Polish victory over Germany" or something similar.

So now he see he is wrong and that's why he isn't in a very nice mood at the moment.

[JCR]

The main problem with that list is that you can't really consider neither the holy roman empire nor the polish-lithuanian commonwealth as "german" or "polish" in the contemporary sense.
The polish-lithuanian kingdom had as many german subjects as the holy roman empire or prussia had polish subjects.
Certainly the culture was allready there, and both of these are in many ways the predecessors of today's nations, which you can see by the fact that both the federal republic of germany and the polish republic use their medieval battle standards as national coat of arms.
But certainly german-polish wars of the middle ages were not fought over cultural domination or racial issues but simply over which overlord ruled more subjects.
Not to mention the fact that all of the warlords on the "german" side were in fact slavic dynasties until the Hohenzollern took over Brandenburg.
Mecklenburgian dukes were named Bogislav until the 18th century.

[Mackie]

I'm not nationalist.

As I wrote there is a thread "Your country's worst historical enemy" on another forum in which I participated some time ago:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=230857

I copied my post from that forum to this forum.

-----------------------------

Another thing is that Dexx wrote in some thread that "Grunwald was the last Polish victory over Germany" - so I wanted to show him he is wrong. :)

Seriously, what discussion do you expect? Beside the fact that you list former kingdoms and mix the whole.

[Ataman]

This thread has potential. *grabs popcorn*

[Domen]

Yeah, of course I understand that nations in a modern meaning of this word didn't exist.

In the battle of Grunwald many Poles - subjects of the Teutonic state - fought on Teutonic side, and many Germans - subjects of Poland - fought on Polish side.

But in the Polish campaign in 1939 and in World War II in general also many Poles (mainly bilingual Polish-German "Silesians" from Upper Silesia) fought in the Wehrmacht. So there is no much difference.

Also some Germans fought in the Polish army in 1939 - for example the commander of the defence of Hel Peninsula was German. He refused to speak German after being captured. Those Germans who fought in the Polish army in 1939 as volunteers were always Anti-Nazi Germans. Those who were conscripted (e.g. members of German minority in Poland) - no.

But the fact is that the Holy Roman Empire, Austria, Brandenburg, etc. - were German states. While the Kingdom of Poland, Mazovia, etc. - Polish states.

[Dexx]

I'm not nationalist.

On the other hand - I saw (and discussed with) many German nationalists on Feldgrau.net and Axis History.com forums.

As I wrote there is a thread "Your country's worst historical enemy" on another forum in which I participated some time ago:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=230857


I copied my post from that forum to this forum.

-----------------------------

Edit:

Oh, Dexx is here.

Dexx wrote in some thread that "Grunwald was the last Polish victory over Germany" or something similar.

So now he see he is wrong and that's why he isn't in a very nice mood at the moment.


I honestly don't care which medieval ruler won what war. Neither from a German point of view nor from a Polish one. History is history. Beside this, you have proven my point with your response, because it seems like it is VERY important how many times Poland was victorious against Russia and Germany. Exactly those countries that partinioned Poland three times. Even it is more than 200 years ago it must still haunt you badly.

[Domen]

Certainly military history "haunts" all of you "badly" since otherwise you wouldn't have been posting on "Military History and Tactics" forums.

There are more interesting things to do unless it "haunts you badly"



I honestly don't care which medieval ruler won what war. (...) History is history.


You write you don't care about military history, while you write on a "Military History and Tactics" forum... strange at least. :roll:

[Papenheims]

1st war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow (1500 - 1503) - Muscovite forces capture some territories of Lithuania, Lithuanian-Polish defeat
2nd war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow and the battle of Orsza (1507 - 1508) -the battle and the entire war is inconclusive, but Moscow has some territorial gains
3rd war of Poland-Lithuania against Moscow, the 2nd battle of Orsza and the battle of Polock (1512 - 1522) - Muscovite forces completely defeated in the 2nd battle of Orsza

What Poland-Lithuania - those were sepperate states at that time and only shared common ruller from time to time through personal union. And Poland as a state didn't take part in those wars. Even in the large battle of Orsha, Polish troops were mercaries paid from budget of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. If we are going to list basically all nationalities in Lithuanian army than war would sound like Lithuanian-Polish-German-Tatar-Czech-Hungarian-Serb etc war against Moscow.

1st Northern War (1558 - 1570) - Poland gains almost entire Livonia, the outcome of this war is favourable for Poland
Russian Invasion of Livonia (1575) - Russian forces capture most of Livonia
1st Polish-Russian war (1577 - 1582) - Poles counterattack, recapture entire Livonia, capture some Russian territories including two mighty castles

It was Lithuania who gained Livonia and Kurland as vassal state through treaty of Vilna 1561. Poland (nobility) were quite ignorant of this war and Sigismund August had to travel to saeim quite often just to beg nobility to get involved. After the Livonian war Poland and Lithuania found themselves in one state - commonwealth and status of Livonia was changed to condomium.

Generally your list is very bad because it doesn't take into account that the meaning of what is Poland, Russia and Germany (or Germans) - from modern perspective -- didn't exist at all during most of those wars you listed.

[Steak-Sauce]

It's an interesting list, nonetheless. Thanks.


Markgraf of Lausitz Hodo
Henceforth, I shall use this name as a ****star. rofl

[Domen]

What Poland-Lithuania - those were sepperate states at that time and only shared common ruller from time to time through personal union.


You are right about the personal union. And I am right that the Polish army was supporting Lithuania in her wars against Moscow. For example in the mentioned battle of Orsza:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Orsz%C4%85_(1514)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orsha



It was Lithuania who gained Livonia and Kurland as vassal state through treaty of Vilna 1561.


What is you source?

Livonia was a common Polish-Lithunian fiefdom according to my sources (at least since the Lublin Union in 1569).

And actually Grand Master Kettler payed homage (asked for protection and gave his lands) to the Polish King, not Lithuanian Grand Duke.

I know that the King of Poland and the Grand Duke was one and the same person at that time (Zygmunt August), but he refered to him as to the Polish king, not as to Lithuanian Grand Duke. That's why I write that he payed homage to the Polish king.



Even in the large battle of Orsha, Polish troops were mercaries paid from budget of Grand Duchy of Lithuania.


According to my sources they were mercenaries paid from the budget of the Crown of Poland.

And apart from these regulars / mercenaries (infantry) there was also a large force of Polish cavalry.



than war would sound like Lithuanian-Polish-German-Tatar-Czech-Hungarian-Serb etc war against Moscow.


You forgot Ruthenians since in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania majority of population were Ruthenians (and Lithuanians were minority).

[Papenheims]

You are right about the personal union. And I am right that the Polish army was supporting Lithuania in her wars against Moscow. For example in the mentioned battle of Orsza:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Orsz%C4%85_(1514 (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Orsz%C4%85_%281514))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orsha

Polish state ARMY didn't directly take part of those Lithuanian Moscovite wars until the fifth war in 1534 when a Polish state army was directly led by Jan Tarnowski, the grand crown hetman (state office).
In the previous wars Poles fought too, but as mercenaries in Lithuanian armies.

You might as well list a British peninsular campaign against Napolean also as the war against Poland. Well there were Polish lancers in French armies.....


What is you source?
the text of threaty translated in Latvian in one book i have about the last years of Livonian-Lithuanian diplomacy in the beginning of Livonian war.


Livonia was a common Polish-Lithunian fiefdom according to my sources.
Yes, but only after union of Lublin (1568 - merge of Poland and Lithuanian in one state) and truce of truce of Jam Zapolski (1582 - end of Livonian war).
I will repeat myself again.
After the Livonian war Poland and Lithuania found themselves in one state - commonwealth and status of Livonia was changed to condomium. (condomium = common fiefdom)


And actually Grand Master Kettler payed homage (asked for protection and gave his lands) to the Polish King, not Lithuanian Grand Duke.
After the threaty of Vilna 1561 he paid homage as Duke of Kurland to Sigismund August as grand duke of Lithuania. The status and duties of Kurland against Lithuania were based on Prussian homage to Poland. As I said Poland wasn't even involved in the beginning of that war. It changed after union of Lublin.

[emind]

Polish warriors were considered the best and toughest for a long time from 12th century to 17th, or so, even by us, Russians and also by the rest of European nations. Great nation, great peoples. I might propose that only cossacks and, maybe, tatars could match them in those days. Caused many troubles for my nation :) We did same to them :)

[Musashi]

Polish warriors were considered the best and toughest for a long time from 12th century to 17th, or so, even by us, Russians and also by the rest of European nations. Great nation, great peoples. I might propose that only cossacks and, maybe, tatars could match them in those days. Caused many troubles for my nation :) We did same to them :)
Neither Tatars nor Cossacks were a big problem as long as they did not ally. When they did it, the situation became problematic. Cossacks had a very good infantry and fought extremely well in trenches and fortified wagons. On the other side, Cossack cavalry was a joke comparing to Polish cavalry in terms of tactic, horses and equipment. Polish cavalry was very seldom able to take Cossack fortified wagons and there was almost always insufficient number of infantry in Polish armies. However the cavalry was able to make the wagons a sitting duck and wait until the artillery arrived. The wagons were an excellent target for artillery.
Tatars had a very good light cavalry, often better than Polish light cavalry. They had also very durable horses and used clever tactics. It was difficult to force Tatars to fight if they did not intend to fight as they were very fast and accepted just engagements when they saw a high chance to win. They had also a very serious disadvantage - their cavalry was afraid of fighting against infantry armed with firearms and was very sensitive to gunfire.
It all explains Cossack-Tatar successes against the Polish army during the initial phase of Khmelnitskiy's Uprising - the Cossack army could not be made a sitting duck by the Polish cavalry as long as a very numerous Tatar cavalry was nearby. When the Poles successfully fought Tatar cavalry, it could always hide amongst a very good Cossack infantry. Nonetheless, the combined Cossack-Tatar forces were unable to win any battle unless they were advantageous.
The biggest 17 century battle against combined Cossack-Tatar forces was won by the Poles, although they were outnumbered 1:2+:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berestechko
The battle is said to be the biggest massacre of the 17 century.

[Robert.V]

Cossack cavalry was a joke

Cossacks are the best light troops among all that exist. If I had them in my army, I would go through all the world with them - Napoleon.

Pretty much every book i've read praised the Cossack cavalry. The Poles were one of the very few who could rival them.

[emind]

Neither Tatars nor Cossacks were a big problem as long as they did not ally. When they did it, the situation became problematic. Cossacks had a very good infantry and fought extremely well in trenches and fortified wagons. On the other side, Cossack cavalry was a joke comparing to Polish cavalry in terms of tactic, horses and equipment. Polish cavalry was very seldom able to take Cossack fortified wagons and there was almost always insufficient number of infantry in Polish armies. However the cavalry was able to make the wagons a sitting duck and wait until the artillery arrived. The wagons were an excellent target for artillery.
Tatars had a very good light cavalry, often better than Polish light cavalry. They had also very durable horses and used clever tactics. It was difficult to force Tatars to fight if they did not intend to fight as they were very fast and accepted just engagements when they saw a high chance to win. They had also a very serious disadvantage - their cavalry was afraid of fighting against infantry armed with firearms and was very sensitive to gunfire.
It all explains Cossack-Tatar successes against the Polish army during the initial phase of Khmelnitskiy's Uprising - the Cossack army could not be made a sitting duck by the Polish cavalry as long as a very numerous Tatar cavalry was nearby. When the Poles successfully fought Tatar cavalry, it could always hide amongst a very good Cossack infantry. Nonetheless, the combined Cossack-Tatar forces were unable to win any battle unless they were advantageous.
The biggest 17 century battle against combined Cossack-Tatar forces was won by the Poles, although they were outnumbered 1:2+:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berestechko
The battle is said to be the biggest massacre of the 17 century.

Great history knowledge:) But I meant different kind of Cossacks and other type of Tatars:)
Zaporozhyan cossacks, althogh they've left huge impact in Russian history (Polish also, if you know), (and, btw were some of my ancestors) were not as significant and strong as, for example Don Cossacks, or "Siberian Cossacks", and also, in later times Terek Cossaks.
As for Tatars; you must know there are diferrent Tatars, such as Crimean (the ones you were speaking about, which were always enemies to Rus or Russia, and Turk vassals, until we dealt with those), Siberian Tatars consisting of the remnants of Golden Horde, which we conquered under the rule of Aleksey, if I am not wrong, and also Volga Tatars and Bashkirs, my other ancestors, who were bloodily conquered under the rule of Ivan the Terrible.
You are very competent, but when it comes to Don Cossacks and Volga or Siberian Tatars compairing to Polish Hussars, for example, or Polish Knights, you have to agree with me, that those were on the about same level.
:) Here is a huge ground to argue about. For me it's very interesting. I have ancestors in Polish, Tatar, Russian and German bloods. Cossack also, so since I was a kid I was reading a lot of literature about our history.

[monolit]

Title is misleading. Such countries like Germany or Russia didn't exist during medieval period.

[Russianlynxy]

Title is misleading. Such countries like Germany or Russia didn't exist during medieval period.

Well if you consider Kievan Rus and Novgorod "Russia".. :D

[zulu261]

Poland strong !!!!!111!!!!!11

[JCR]

To sum it up, as Poland apparently won every war against its archenemies and still ended up being divided three times one can safely argue that polish politicians are not as good as polish soldiers :P

[Russianlynxy]

politicians are not as good as polish soldiers :P

just like Russia. seriously I can probably count all the talented Russian leadership throughout history on my hand

[Domen]

To sum it up, as Poland apparently won every war against its archenemies and still ended up being divided three times one can safely argue that polish politicians are not as good as polish soldiers :P

True.

Poland lost independence in 1795 but it could regain it much sooner than in 1918.

There was such a chance in early 1830s. Just to mention the November Uprising:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_Uprising

Polish infantry in the battle of Olszynka Grochowska during the November Uprising:

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Kossak_W/Images/Fragment_spod_Grochowa.jpg

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Kossak_W/Images/Grupa_czwartakow.jpg



November Uprising and the subsequent Polish-Russian War (1830 - 1831) - After bloody war regular army of the semi-independent Kingdom of Poland (Congress Poland) is defeated, despite many victorious battles and heavy losses suffered by the Russians - the defeat was suffered because of incompetence of some Polish political leaders and high military commanders

Translated fragments from Polish poet's Juliusz Slowacki work "Kordian" - at the beginning of "Kordian" he writes about leaders of the November Uprising between 1830 and 1831:

The New Year's Eve on 31.12.1799 - devils create Polish leaders for the 19th century and prophesy the Polish history in 19th century:

"This nation will rise up, win and die,
Today we have right to create kings and paupers,
For the entire river of one hundred years long liquid"

About Jan Krukowiecki - the last leader of the November Uprising, ordered the surrender of Warsaw to Russian forces. Before that, in the victorious battle of Grochow (25 February 1831), he refused to complete the order to attack and chase withdrawing Russian forces. He was the Prime Minister of National Government during the Uprising. Since the beginning of the uprising he was willing to negotiate with the Russians and to sign capitulation of the capital instead of defending it. When other influential Poles refused to obey his order and surrender, he demited:

"(...) this is a creature
A destroyer (...)
He will flow back from blood - that's a traitor!
And when guns will roar over the city,
He will abandon the dying knights,
Flying out of the country's ark like a raven,
Will shake off his wings, never come back to the ark,
He will issue the sold country at the mercy of sword."

About Jan Skrzynecki - who wanted to sign an agreement with Russia instead of real fight. He wasn't allowing to conduct any counterattacks, only to "go backwards" (like crabs do). He wasted a lot of chances to defeat the Russians. After the defeat he went to Belgium:

"Chieftain! He will outrun a crab,
He will strike with horn like a snail,
He will try - and to the shell,
Hide his horns - and inside the town's box,
Lock the corpses of plans."

About deputies in Polish Parliament:

"A tribe of speakers,
A distorted herd of starlings"

About Jozef Chlopicki (Chlop = Peasant in Polish), another leader, who was strongly against conscripting peasants to the Polish army:

"Old - like a father of children,
Not to combat, not to hardships,
Let's give him as a mock,
A name discrepant from his nature,
Let's call him after the name of folk"

Fragment from another Slowacki's poem "Agamemnon's Grave":

"Oh! Poland! As long as your angel's soul,
Will be imprisoned in a coarse shard,
So long the headsman will chop your body,
So long your sword of vengeance won't be scary,
So long hyenas will eat you,
And a grave - and eyes opened inside the grave!"

[CPL Trevoga]

To describe tribal warfare of early medieval times as German-Polish and Russian - Polish "wars" is incorrect. Total lack of historical knowledge.

[monolit]

To describe tribal warfare of early medieval times as German-Polish and Russian - Polish "wars" is incorrect. Total lack of historical knowledge.
Those definitely weren't tribal wars too. Monarchy very rare identify itself with some specific nation. In monarchy knignts/soldiers fight for King of Poland etc. not for Polish nation like today. And it's not loyalty to some specific person, but to the idea of monarchy.

[Lokos]

In monarchy knignts/soldiers fight for King of Poland etc.

In fact, they fought for their liege lord - who was virtually never the monarch, but was rather that monarch's vassal.

L.

[perdurabo]

To describe tribal warfare of early medieval times as German-Polish and Russian - Polish "wars" is incorrect. Total lack of historical knowledge.
Hmm army of Mieszko I duke of Poland (he wasn't crowned king, but still he was independant ruler) consisted out of 2 forces
1. duke "team" (drużyna książęca in polish) - well trained and equipped soldiers some of them where prabably vikings but because slavic and viking equipment looks realy similiar we cant say anything about % from from graves we find. This was main force stationed in forts all over the country (like river Odra defence line)
2. wariors from local tribes population, basicly farmers armed up, by battle of cedynia time they where realy insignificant part of polish duke army.
With time duke forces changed into knighthood and tribal wariors split if they where good fighters they got into knighthood or got back into farming.
Tribal wars time is up to X-XIth century after Christianisation country changes rapidly into monarchy, by XII-XIIIth century there are no tribes anymore.
Of course we can't seak about nation wars like we had in XIX and XXth century, but still it was army of ruller of Poland (duke or king) aginst army of ruller of X country.

[Kiiski]

Smells like a repost...

[JCR]

Not a repost, only Domen's history posts always are quite long, contain a lot of links and generally have the same overtones.

[Marmot1]

To sum it up, as Poland apparently won every war against its archenemies and still ended up being divided three times one can safely argue that polish politicians are not as good as polish soldiers :P

you are correct... up until end of 18th century Poland won virtually all mayor combats and wars. Even if we lost some wars it was never total defeat. Problems started at the end of 18th century when polish nobility was so relaxed and confident that they did not noticed disaster that was forming. Swift (in historical terms) series of blows from Russia Austria and Germany in short period finally forced Poland to knees. As long as we had to fend only one or two enemies at the time we were able to stand against then, but then we failed. Additionally Poland was backwards in political and social terms as polish nobility was reluctant to change status quo that worked for ages. At the same time our neighbors had to reconsider some thing after defeats and this worked well for them. i.e. Russians after Dimitriadas emerged very strong and united when their country collapsed.

[CPL Trevoga]

Hmm army of Mieszko I duke of Poland (he wasn't crowned king, but still he was independant ruler) consisted out of 2 forces
1. duke "team" (drużyna książęca in polish) - well trained and equipped soldiers some of them where prabably vikings but because slavic and viking equipment looks realy similiar we cant say anything about % from from graves we find. This was main force stationed in forts all over the country (like river Odra defence line)
2. wariors from local tribes population, basicly farmers armed up, by battle of cedynia time they where realy insignificant part of polish duke army.
With time duke forces changed into knighthood and tribal wariors split if they where good fighters they got into knighthood or got back into farming.
Tribal wars time is up to X-XIth c entury after Christianisation country changes rapidly into monarchy, by XII-XIIIth century there are no tribes anymore.
Of course we can't seak about nation wars like we had in XIX and XXth century, but still it was army of ruller of Poland (duke or king) aginst army of ruller of X country.

drużyna książęca - that's the same way said in modern Russian. "Russians" and "Polish" most likely spoke very similar language, old slavic. They definitely weren't "Polish" and "Russian" in the modern sense. Remember this was more than 1000 years ago. Even 500 years ago, there was talk of uniting what now is Poland and Russia.

[perdurabo]

drużyna książęca - that's the same way said in modern Russian. "Russians" and "Polish" most likely spoke very similar language, old slavic. They definitely weren't "Polish" and "Russian" in the modern sense. Remember this was more than 1000 years ago. Even 500 years ago, there was talk of uniting what now is Poland and Russia.
True, i wonder how world would look like if Moscov Rus would become part of Respublica Serenissima (Polish Lithuanian Commonwelth), Tsar crown was ofered to prince(and future king) Wladyslaw IVth but his father king Jan Kazimierz said no because it would mean changing from roman catholic to orthodox :(. No partition of Poland, no need for upraisings, country from Vladivostok till Gdansk and maybe even further, prabably very modern, democratic and free as i think Russia would quicly embrace Republican way (atleast Boyars would be glad with all the political power and freedom that polish Szlachta had, for peasants both systems where bad, towns citizens i dont know, definetly all religions would be better as Pol&Lith had freedom of faith)...prabably no Stalin, communism and no WWII.
I agree that up till XVIII-XIXth century we cant talk about nations like we have now at all, but among Polish knighthood nationality started to be present at around XIIIth-XIVth century and from XVIth it realy was full of national pride (well they had reasons for it, XVIth century Poles and Lithuanians realy had achievements to be proud of, we modern day are sorry asses compared to them :( )

[CPL Trevoga]

True, i wonder how world would look like if Moscov Rus would become part of Respublica Serenissima (Polish Lithuanian Commonwelth), Tsar crown was ofered to prince(and future king) Wladyslaw IVth but his father king Jan Kazimierz said no because it would mean changing from roman catholic to orthodox :(. No partition of Poland, no need for upraisings, country from Vladivostok till Gdansk and maybe even further, prabably very modern, democratic and free as i think Russia would quicly embrace Republican way (atleast Boyars would be glad with all the political power and freedom that polish Szlachta had, for peasants both systems where bad, towns citizens i dont know, definetly all religions would be better as Pol&Lith had freedom of faith)...prabably no Stalin, communism and no WWII.
I agree that up till XVIII-XIXth century we cant talk about nations like we have now at all, but among Polish knighthood nationality started to be present at around XIIIth-XIVth century and from XVIth it realy was full of national pride (well they had reasons for it, XVIth century Poles and Lithuanians realy had achievements to be proud of, we modern day are sorry asses compared to them :( )

Why :( to Orthodox. Orthodox was the original church of Rome and Catholic is just off-shoot from them. They both political institutions, that have nothing to do with faith and Jesus. I went to catholic services in boot camp, because there were no orthodox ones. Same thing, except priests spoke Latin and English vs old Slavic. Too bad Szlachta and Boyars could not unite into Res Publica (rechpospolita) that included what now is modern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland. Other day I watched "Kiedy slonce bylo bogiem", that put a lot of things in perspective.

[Cabalabro]

This thread is boring... I have not learned anything new and what is more shocking i agree with most of what was sayd hare. This thread totaly lacks belorussian prespective on all this. Man that would spice things up hare :D

[perdurabo]

Why :( to Orthodox.
because ruler should not make decisions based on faith, faith change could be political tool, that could lead to creating realy intresting country.


Orthodox was the original church of Rome and Catholic is just off-shoot from them. They both political institutions, that have nothing to do with faith and Jesus. I went to catholic services in boot camp, because there were no orthodox ones. Same thing, except priests spoke Latin and English vs old Slavic. Too bad Szlachta and Boyars could not unite into Res Publica (rechpospolita) that included what now is modern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland. Other day I watched "Kiedy slonce bylo bogiem", that put a lot of things in perspective.
i dont know mutch about difrences beatwin those faiths, i'm long time buddhist.
I agree. Sadly today slavs are too far away from eatchother to think about any kind of unity, we often have closer ties with western europeans than among us brothers coming from basicly one root.

[Russianlynxy]

because ruler should not make decisions based on faith, faith change could be political tool, that could lead to creating realy intresting country.

Coming from a Polish perspective this is quite contradictory, as Poland for much of it's years was motivated by Catholicism. Remember, the Vatican actually gave Poland the OK for the Catholization mission on Russian lands around the Dimitriad era. Of course there were interests in expanding territory as well, but you must not forget that during that time period main motivation was faith not geopolitics.

[Papenheims]

Coming from a Polish perspective this is quite contradictory, as Poland for much of it's years was motivated by Catholicism. Remember, the Vatican actually gave Poland the OK for the Catholization mission on Russian lands around the Dimitriad era. Of course there were interests in expanding territory as well, but you must not forget that during that time period main motivation was faith not geopolitics.
Lol, Vatican would give their ok's for Catolization missions anywhere in world at that time - be it Russia, Japan or Kongo. So its not actually surprising.

[shadowsrider]

The most interesting is that Poland and German states had a long period of peace despite the common opinion of "eternal hostility".
Combats between Poland vs Brandenburg were not serious and Poland vs Teutonic Order cannot be perceived as Polish German conflict.
After that conflicts between Poles and Germans were incidents moreover Poland vastly used German infantry and German settlers.
Serious threat for Poland appeared with birth of Prussia and Bismarck policy which led to a century of conflicts. But before there were a few centuries of peace and fruitful cooperation. Poland despite its potential and superiority over small states was not interfering in religious wars. Eyes were kept on north, east and south.
Bigger threats were: Turkey, Sweden and Muscovy and finally Ukraine which dominated a few centuries of conflicts.
Hostility started with birth of nationalisms.

BTW before XVI-XVII century naming a conflict Polish-German or Polish-Russian makes no point. People were thinking more in feudal than nation categories.

[shadowsrider]

This thread is boring... I have not learned anything new and what is more shocking i agree with most of what was sayd hare. This thread totaly lacks belorussian prespective on all this. Man that would spice things up hare :D

You can add this perspective.
As far as I know Belarussian language comes from Ruthenian which was widely spoken even by Commonwealth noblemen of Ruthenian origin. We can speak about Belarus since some XIX- beginning of XX century and conflict was in that time always in bigger picture of USSR.

[shadowsrider]

True, i wonder how world would look like if Moscov Rus would become part of Respublica Serenissima (Polish Lithuanian Commonwelth),

Such entity would collapse: too much cultural differences. Brutally speaking Lithuanian elite was incorporated into Polish culture influence but it would not happen to Russian elite.

[Tyon]

I'm not nationalist.

On the other hand - I saw (and discussed with) many German nationalists on Feldgrau.net and Axis History.com forums.

Oh my next you will say that there are nazi forums with real nazis inside.:cantbeli:

Why oh why are some people so weird to visit those sites and actually give a crap about anything that is written down by said members? Seriously i was just on feldgrau and already have the feeling that the BKA is on to me.



Oh and any war not led by the holy roman emperor till 1806 is not to be considered a "german"-polish war. Thank you

[shadowsrider]

Coming from a Polish perspective this is quite contradictory, as Poland for much of it's years was motivated by Catholicism. Remember, the Vatican actually gave Poland the OK for the Catholization mission on Russian lands around the Dimitriad era. Of course there were interests in expanding territory as well, but you must not forget that during that time period main motivation was faith not geopolitics.

True.
The only thing that stopped Russian boyars from accepting Polish prince on the throne was not accepting the conversion into Orthodox faith.
Paris was worth a mess but Sigmund III was so orthodox in Roman catholicism that he even made unrest in multi-relligion Poland.

[CPL Trevoga]

Such entity would collapse: too much cultural differences. Brutally speaking Lithuanian elite was incorporated into Polish culture influence but it would not happen to Russian elite.

And Lithuanians? They are not even in the same tribal group. It kind of hard to understand motivations of people who lived 500 years ago. I think that they did not have much difference, as boyar and schlahta system are base on old tribal governance system.