Kilo1-1
07-26-2010, 10:51 PM
I'm no expert or scientist. With all the 'hype' of piston guns (and even ruger jumping on that bandwagon) and some bias media reporting of DI guns failing when fouled, I wanted to see what a few sand/dust could do to a standard, sub-par AR15 (this aint a BCM, Colt, Noveske, etc). This test is not fully extensive as I'd liked it to be, as I was limited in time (and financially with higher ammo costs these days).
As Larry Vickers said,
"The golden rule in weapons lubricant is you can run a gun dirty and wet, but not dirty and dry."
And in regards to sandy conditions:
"... I have no doubt in my mind that in sandy environments you are much better of with a gun that is wet than one that is dry. Having sand coat your small arm like a sugar cookie with some lubricant still in place is a better situation than a completely dry weapon in a sandy environment. Your weapon may still malfunction but not anything like it would if it was bone dry."
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/weapon-lubrication/
With that in mind, I thought I'd like to see where the failure point is on my carbine with a quick and dirty test (nothing scientific). Load the carbine, and with dust cover open, dump sand/gravel onto the BCG area (with BCG forward and round chambered). Bore and chamber were unobstructed as well. Pick up the gun, give a quick and gentle shake, and then shoot. This isn't a torture test, but maybe more of an 'enhanced' function test. Ideally, I'd love to fire 1000 rounds in a day in these conditions, but I didn't have the money and the ammo. I might do it one day in the future if possible for the hell of it.
Upper: Stag Arms 16in carbine upper, 1/9 twist barrel. Parts added/changed previously: BCM SOCOM extractor spring and insert upgrade, BCM cam pin, and properly staked carrier key. Over 3000 rounds through it. Never tried a sand 'test' like this before though.
Lower: RRA lower, stock GI trigger that I've worked on in the past, Stag H buffer replaced the old carbine buffer.
Magazines: Crap magazines account for a lot of malfunctions, so I went with only PMags because of their reliability. Didn't want any other variable that could have caused another malfunction.
The rifle is nothing spectacular, just your run of the mill budget AR.
Outing 1: 90 rounds of PMC, Brown bear 55 gr steel, Monarch Brass, Winchester 5.56 (all ammo 55 gr)
Lubrication: Previously applied militec (post heated with the 'film' on there, the grain of the BCG felt different) and copious amounts of TW25B grease.
String of fire: Double taps and mozambique drills with mag reloads. Some magazines were downloaded to 15 rounds to check for proper bolt lock back with Pmags. After each reload, more dust/sand was shoveled onto the same area.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/516/test2ko.jpg
After a few mags: a film of sand on the BCG that stayed on after a few magazines.
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1457/test1ys.jpg
Around 70 rounds or so, had first malfunction (forgot to snap a photo). Failure to feed, but had successful ejection prior to this. The action got so sluggish that it couldn't properly chamber the round. During shooting, I could feel the BCG reciprocating at a slower rate around 50+ rounds. I did not wipe the BCG down in between the strings of fire. Once I cleared the FTF (Monarch Brass), I finished the rest of the mag, and then some more. For this day, the BCG locked back with empty magazines. Only 90 rounds fired, since I forgot to bring the rest of my ammo. One malfunction out of 90 rounds. Not that bad, but not really ideal either. Besides the malfunction, the rifle cycled with all the ammo, including the weaker russian ammo. the gun still I packed up for the day and thoroughly cleaned the rifle.
I'm guessing too much grease + a H buffer with a lot of sand/gunk slowed down the action a lot.
===========================
Outing 2: Went back out the range today for a quick shoot. Did more dust/sand testing today with a slighter different proportion of lubrication (more oil, less grease, makes sense.)
Gun remained the same. Ammo used 100: Winchester 5.56, brown bear, and CCI Speer Lawman (all 55 gr again).
I applied a little more militec this time and a very very light layer of TW25B. After each magazine reload (double taps and Mozambique drills), I proceeded to add more sand/dirt in like in the previous outing.
Initial dumping:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8237/dust1.jpg
As a note, I used a lot less TW25B grease this time (only mostly on the cam pin). Interestingly, once the wet lube (militec) started drying off (around 70+ rounds or so), the gas would "blow" the sand off on its own. I did not wipe the BCG down in between the strings of fire again.
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/6438/cimg1365.jpg
It became a lot cleaner on it's own than I thought, not what I really expected.
The sand is so fine that the dust cover and Larue riser mount looks spray painted, but it's not.
I think it has to do with the fact that my BCG's worn in (less friction?) and I've got a dry coating of militec from previous applications coupled with less grease trapping the sand. It ended up being a lot less dirtier than I thought during cleaning. Zero malfunctions in the 100 rounds in this quick and dirty shooting today with some slower bench rest shooting (testing to see how my rifle would like the CCI speer lawman).
The gun will run dirty, and with a DI gun, the gas will blow the crap out. But copious wet lubrication will keep it going.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9781/side1dp.jpg
No malfunctions today, BCG locked back on empty mag each time.
I did the same thing with the Glock, but nothing to report, no malfunction with the over 100 rounds I fired (wanted to shoot more, but forgot to bring the rest of the ammo, doh). Gun was cleaned prior to this shoot with a VERY light coating of TW25B.
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3522/glockdust.jpg
So a quick recap: As I said before this isn't a torture test, but I guess it would be more of an 'enhanced' function test in a semi-unrealistic condition. In reality, the dust cover will be in place. Generally speaking, I never had issues using grease in high round counts on a clean range, but when you're going to have a lot of crap going on the BCG, it's probably better to use a wet lube.
And as common sense would say, better to run the gun wet even when dirty.
Shooting is always fun. Eye protection was important, as a lot of sand was blown in my face in the start. :cantbeli:
As Larry Vickers said,
"The golden rule in weapons lubricant is you can run a gun dirty and wet, but not dirty and dry."
And in regards to sandy conditions:
"... I have no doubt in my mind that in sandy environments you are much better of with a gun that is wet than one that is dry. Having sand coat your small arm like a sugar cookie with some lubricant still in place is a better situation than a completely dry weapon in a sandy environment. Your weapon may still malfunction but not anything like it would if it was bone dry."
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/weapon-lubrication/
With that in mind, I thought I'd like to see where the failure point is on my carbine with a quick and dirty test (nothing scientific). Load the carbine, and with dust cover open, dump sand/gravel onto the BCG area (with BCG forward and round chambered). Bore and chamber were unobstructed as well. Pick up the gun, give a quick and gentle shake, and then shoot. This isn't a torture test, but maybe more of an 'enhanced' function test. Ideally, I'd love to fire 1000 rounds in a day in these conditions, but I didn't have the money and the ammo. I might do it one day in the future if possible for the hell of it.
Upper: Stag Arms 16in carbine upper, 1/9 twist barrel. Parts added/changed previously: BCM SOCOM extractor spring and insert upgrade, BCM cam pin, and properly staked carrier key. Over 3000 rounds through it. Never tried a sand 'test' like this before though.
Lower: RRA lower, stock GI trigger that I've worked on in the past, Stag H buffer replaced the old carbine buffer.
Magazines: Crap magazines account for a lot of malfunctions, so I went with only PMags because of their reliability. Didn't want any other variable that could have caused another malfunction.
The rifle is nothing spectacular, just your run of the mill budget AR.
Outing 1: 90 rounds of PMC, Brown bear 55 gr steel, Monarch Brass, Winchester 5.56 (all ammo 55 gr)
Lubrication: Previously applied militec (post heated with the 'film' on there, the grain of the BCG felt different) and copious amounts of TW25B grease.
String of fire: Double taps and mozambique drills with mag reloads. Some magazines were downloaded to 15 rounds to check for proper bolt lock back with Pmags. After each reload, more dust/sand was shoveled onto the same area.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/516/test2ko.jpg
After a few mags: a film of sand on the BCG that stayed on after a few magazines.
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1457/test1ys.jpg
Around 70 rounds or so, had first malfunction (forgot to snap a photo). Failure to feed, but had successful ejection prior to this. The action got so sluggish that it couldn't properly chamber the round. During shooting, I could feel the BCG reciprocating at a slower rate around 50+ rounds. I did not wipe the BCG down in between the strings of fire. Once I cleared the FTF (Monarch Brass), I finished the rest of the mag, and then some more. For this day, the BCG locked back with empty magazines. Only 90 rounds fired, since I forgot to bring the rest of my ammo. One malfunction out of 90 rounds. Not that bad, but not really ideal either. Besides the malfunction, the rifle cycled with all the ammo, including the weaker russian ammo. the gun still I packed up for the day and thoroughly cleaned the rifle.
I'm guessing too much grease + a H buffer with a lot of sand/gunk slowed down the action a lot.
===========================
Outing 2: Went back out the range today for a quick shoot. Did more dust/sand testing today with a slighter different proportion of lubrication (more oil, less grease, makes sense.)
Gun remained the same. Ammo used 100: Winchester 5.56, brown bear, and CCI Speer Lawman (all 55 gr again).
I applied a little more militec this time and a very very light layer of TW25B. After each magazine reload (double taps and Mozambique drills), I proceeded to add more sand/dirt in like in the previous outing.
Initial dumping:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8237/dust1.jpg
As a note, I used a lot less TW25B grease this time (only mostly on the cam pin). Interestingly, once the wet lube (militec) started drying off (around 70+ rounds or so), the gas would "blow" the sand off on its own. I did not wipe the BCG down in between the strings of fire again.
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/6438/cimg1365.jpg
It became a lot cleaner on it's own than I thought, not what I really expected.
The sand is so fine that the dust cover and Larue riser mount looks spray painted, but it's not.
I think it has to do with the fact that my BCG's worn in (less friction?) and I've got a dry coating of militec from previous applications coupled with less grease trapping the sand. It ended up being a lot less dirtier than I thought during cleaning. Zero malfunctions in the 100 rounds in this quick and dirty shooting today with some slower bench rest shooting (testing to see how my rifle would like the CCI speer lawman).
The gun will run dirty, and with a DI gun, the gas will blow the crap out. But copious wet lubrication will keep it going.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9781/side1dp.jpg
No malfunctions today, BCG locked back on empty mag each time.
I did the same thing with the Glock, but nothing to report, no malfunction with the over 100 rounds I fired (wanted to shoot more, but forgot to bring the rest of the ammo, doh). Gun was cleaned prior to this shoot with a VERY light coating of TW25B.
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3522/glockdust.jpg
So a quick recap: As I said before this isn't a torture test, but I guess it would be more of an 'enhanced' function test in a semi-unrealistic condition. In reality, the dust cover will be in place. Generally speaking, I never had issues using grease in high round counts on a clean range, but when you're going to have a lot of crap going on the BCG, it's probably better to use a wet lube.
And as common sense would say, better to run the gun wet even when dirty.
Shooting is always fun. Eye protection was important, as a lot of sand was blown in my face in the start. :cantbeli: