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Pep's Bandit
08-02-2004, 07:12 PM
I got this interesting artical off of isayeret.com


While it was never officially admitted, several IDF elite SF teams took active yet covert part in the Desert Storm campaign, Persian Gulf, 1991.

In August 2, 1990, the Iraqi armed forces invaded Quait and declared it as an integral part of the Iraqi state. Soon afterwards the U.S. called for the Iraqi retreat from the area, formed a very fragile coalition with several European as well as Arab countries, and started mobilizing troops and equipment to the region.

Like in the 1973 Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War, the Israeli intelligence was caught off guard and without any worthwhile intelligence sources in the region. In order to fix that, several field agents from the Mossad - the Israeli Foreign Intelligence Gathering Service - were inserted into to Iraq and to Quait. At the same time operators from Sayeret MATKAL (Unit 767) - the IDF primary SF unit - were sent it to obtain more tactical oriented intelligence on the Iraqi army movements.

At the time, the chances for Iraq to actually attack Israel were still slim, but the Mossad agents as well as the Sayeret MATKAL operators were sent in just in case.

In January 16, 1991, a day after the UN ultimatum to Iraq expired, the U.S. began massive aerial assault against Iraqi targets. Less then 24 hours later Iraq sent 8 Scud land-to-land missiles on Israel, targeting mainly the heavily populated Tel-Aviv city area. After the Scud assault the Israeli Air Force (IAF), which was already on high alert, began preparations for a long-range retaliation attack. However, feared for the sake of its already fragile coalition, the U.S. demanded that Israel will not take any offensive measures against Iraq, and that the U.S. will make a special effort to track down and destroy the mobile Scud launchers. In return for the Israeli official non-participation in the crisis, Israel received a U.S. permission to deploy several SF teams in the American sector of the Scuds hunt, located north of the Baghdad-Amman highway and better known as the "Scud Boulevard".

The Israeli SF teams were to deploy at an absolute covert manner, without any interface what so ever with other coalition forces and without any trace that may identify them as Israeli.

Shortly after the U.S. permission was granted few teams from several different SF units were inserted to the area by CH53 transport helicopters and the operation began.

Quite ironically, the intelligence gathered by the Mossad and Sayeret MATKAL operatives, which were inserted few months earlier, was used as a bargain cheep by the Israelis in their negotiations with the Americans and was one of the main reasons why the Israelis were authorized to operate in the area.

The teams, which were sent in, were from the following units:

Sayeret Shaldag.

Sayeret Maglan.

One reserve team from Unit 669.

Sayeret MATKAL.

Few teams from classified electronic warfare and communication units.

All teams were equipped with non-Israeli oriented Land Rover jeeps, experimental dune buggies, and specially modified Swedish Husqvarna motorcycles. All vehicles were painted in desert camouflage layout and had no Israeli markings on them. Due to the long duration of the operation and the lack of any nearby support, massive auxiliary equipment and gear was also taken.

The main offensive elements of Israeli SF group were the teams from Sayeret Shaldag and Sayeret Maglan. More then half of these two units' operators participated in the Scud hunt, and were equipped with Land Rover jeeps fitted with ATGM.

On the other hand, since Sayeret MATKAL had deployed in the AO long before the rest of the units did, the unit role in the operation was more an intelligence oriented one, as the unit is originally designed to do. Part from few unavoidable incidents, Sayeret MATKAL didn't handle the offensive missions at all, and instead acted as the (LRRP and pathfinders for all of the other teams.

Once deployed to the region, the Israeli SF teams began seeking for mobile Scud launchers as well as for other high value targets. The teams stayed hidden during the day to avoid any detection by Iraqi as well as by coalitions forces, and went on Scud hunts during the night. The days were used for planning, technical maintenance and sleep.

Each mobile Scud party was composed of three elements:

A Scud Tractor-Erector-Launcher (TEL), a vehicle that carries the
missile, brings it to a standing position at the launch site and then
fire it.

A Zill truck which carry guards.

The CO Land Cruiser jeep.

Since the very presence of the Israeli teams in the area was highly classified, no air assets could be called upon for bombardment or support, and insertion/extraction as well supply flights were very complex and long. In one incident an IAF CH53 leading Israeli operators to Iraq was almost shot down by American fighter jets unaware of its identity.

The operation itself ran generally smoothly. Eventually, the Israeli teams from Sayeret Shaldag and Sayeret Maglan were able to detect and destroy several mobile Scud launchers as well as ammunition carriers and few Iraqi army front posts. Most of the kills were made by long range ATGM, but few were done by direct assaults and were the source for most of operation's injuries.

One unique and rare incident did take place in broad daylight. While a Sayeret Shaldag team was resting in its hideout inside a small creek, a Scud launcher convoy drove above the creek and made a short stopped. The team couldn't believe its good luck and since the location was far away in the desert the team decided to take the risk and to attack right from the hideout in daylight. It was a total success. The Scud group was composed of about six guards and a launching crew - no match for a much superior trained and equipped Israeli elite SF team.

Since for political reasons nobody wanted to take the chance of the Israeli teams being spotted by foreign armies washing through Quait or Iraqi lands, few days before Iraq surrendered the teams were extracted back to Israel by CH53.

The operation in whole is considered a success. While the Israeli teams' activity was a rather symbolic one and only for short few weeks period, they were very effective compared to their size and to the limited assets at their disposal. The Israeli teams also managed to gather the most valuable intelligence in the Desert Storm campaign out of all the coalition forces in the area, an intelligence, which was later passed on by Israel to the U.S. Moreover, unlike American and British patrols no Israeli patrol or hideout was ever revealed by the local Iraqis or by army patrols of any sources, and no Israeli soldiers were killed during the covert insertion.

Midav
08-02-2004, 10:33 PM
Very interesting. Israel has some of the best SF and intel units in existence

No suprise that they were giving us the info :)

KML
08-02-2004, 10:42 PM
I find it interesting that they claimed several Scud Kills, and they were operating in the dark, unknown to the SAS and Delta teams working in the area! They sound pretty damn proffesional! p-)

UkrainianAmerican
08-02-2004, 10:54 PM
I find it interesting that they claimed several Scud Kills, and they were operating in the dark, unknown to the SAS and Delta teams working in the area! They sound pretty damn proffesional! p-)
Also they werent busy destroying scud MOCK-ups, NATO style.
(Honestly no offense to anyone, but it is a fact that During GW1 and the Kosovo campaign, there were many staged 'search and destroy' missions)

Midav
08-02-2004, 10:59 PM
Also they werent busy destroying scud MOCK-ups, NATO style.
(Honestly no offense to anyone, but it is a fact that During GW1 and the Kosovo campaign, there were many staged 'search and destroy' missions)

No doubt about it. It's easy to fool a high flying aircraft and why it's nice to have eyes and ears on the ground actually looking at the equipment...

However, on the plus side, blowing up decoys looks good on the nightly news ;)

RFSU
08-03-2004, 08:56 AM
While I have no doubts that the IDF had SF on the ground, I am a little skeptical as to the authenticity of this artical.
The IDF and Mossad don't generally let this sort of stuff become public knowladge.

hist2004
08-03-2004, 09:31 AM
While I have no doubts that the IDF had SF on the ground, I am a little skeptical as to the authenticity of this artical.
The IDF and Mossad don't generally let this sort of stuff become public knowladge.

RFSU

I have to agree. Israel showed tremendous restraint when Saddam fired 88 (46 Scuds fired into the KTO and 42 fired
at Israel for a total of 88 missiles. Several more were early in-flight failures in Iraq.) modified scuds at Israel in an attempt
to provoke an Israeli retaliation and dissolve President Bush’s coalition of Arab countries. Israel agreed to stay out of
the war if the United States would send it’s “best” operators (Delta) to deal with the scud issue. Cheney convinced
Israel that they would and thus Israel stayed out. It’s fair to assume that Israel had assets “ready” to respond
if they didn’t come to an agreement with the US.

Regards,
Hist2004

RFSU
08-03-2004, 09:45 AM
Yep, tis all a bit dodge!

Pep's Bandit
08-03-2004, 11:44 AM
I think it sounds "lagit", who would spot a few teams of Israeli SF in a huge Desert full of dunes, hills, and mountains? I don't know if the details of the artical were true, but I think it's sensable that the IDF had a few teams on the ground.

Just some thoughts, Pep's Bandit!

AROUETLJ
08-03-2004, 01:59 PM
I think it's fair to assume that this is all bollocks.

Pep's Bandit
08-03-2004, 02:14 PM
Well, I don't think it was ever confirmed, but ya never know. Check out isayeret.com

AROUETLJ
08-03-2004, 03:37 PM
I could also write a few paragraphs saying that, say, Italian special forces were operating in Iraq during Desert Storm. Since we have no photos or other proof that they were there, would my story be true. Gentlemen, let us use Occam's Razor. (Better than Gilette Mach III Turbo).

oldsoak
08-03-2004, 04:08 PM
I have no doubt that the Israelis have the skills and the ability to carry out such a mission. however, I have this little niggling doubt that says that the political repercussions of them being caught would have been a golden gift to Saddam that would have screwwed the coalition. It would have been a BIG deal that might have left the western members of the coalition fighting to get out of Iraq as they would have been seen to have allied with the "Zionist enemy". I dont think the US would risk that. Entirely within the Israeli capability, but I do feel its unlikely.

oldsoak
08-03-2004, 04:20 PM
Just had a thought - it could be carried out if the Israelis masqeraded as US troops. Troops would have to be carefully selcted by racial apperance etc and gear provided by the US. Little things like rations with non kosher items to add credence to the story etc should they get caught..

Pep's Bandit
08-03-2004, 04:31 PM
Good point Oldsoak! The Israeli's seem pretty bold, I bet they could have pulled it off!


P'sBandit p-)

2RHPZ
08-03-2004, 05:32 PM
When I first time run into the article I thought that it is about SOF ... it ain´t, sorry, but still little on topic ...


Israel's Scud killer: Shot heard round the world

By Bradley Burston, Haaretz Correspondence

This time, the shot heard round the world was fired in California.

In an area better known for surfing than for strategic impact, last week's test-firing of an Arrow anti-missile off sleepy Point Magu barely made wave one in the States, coinciding as it did with the prime-time, straw hat and Chuck Berry hullabaloo coronation of a Democratic presidential candidate.

The demonstration, in which the U.S.-financed, Israeli developed Arrow for the first time successfully intercepted a Scud missile in flight, may well have made more noise halfway around the globe, in places like Tehran and Damascus.

To be sure, some of the claims made at home for the anti-ballistic missile system reflected a blend of wishful thinking, chamber of commerce chest thumping, and just plain fear - a vestige of the memory of the 1991 Gulf war, in which American Patriot anti-missiles may have only deepened the destruction caused by the dozens of Saddam-fired Scuds they were deployed to block.

Analysts have uniformly dismissed as unfounded such assessments as that of an unnamed Pentagon official, quoted by an Israeli television channel Friday as having said that with one shot, "Israel has changed the strategic balance in the Middle East."

Nonetheless, the test was not without significance. In a region where smoke and mirrors are boundlessly potent elements of the decision-making arsenal, deterrence, no less than politics itself, is perception.

In the eyes of Israeli defense experts, the Arrow-Scud match-up proved that the Israeli system was capable of tracking and striking a missile even smaller than the Scud, notes Haaretz defense commentator Ze'ev Schiff.

A signal boosts Israel's deterrent capability
From a strictly practical standpoint, that fact alone cannot give Israelis cause for calm. Enhancements in the speed and range of Iranian and other versions of the Scud - itself a Russian re-invention of the Nazi V-2 rockets that thundered into Britain during the World War II blitz - mean that further development will be needed to effectively counter current regional threats.

At the same time, Schiff says, the test sent "a very significant signal, saying that the United States and Israel are standing together on an issue of great importance."

The signal is of paramount importance from the standpoint of deterrence, Schiff continues.

"The fact of the technology was known, in large part, by both sides. However, if the Americans invite the Israel Air Force and take the entire system, including an Israeli, not American radar system, this rare step signifies that the U.S. is working with Israel on a key issue, and this strengthens Israel's deterrent capability."

Deterrence, never far from the minds of Israeli leaders, was a central talking point of a speech by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon delivered just hours before the Arrow test.

Edging closer than ever to discussing Israel's much-rumored, never-acknowledged nuclear weapons program, Sharon said, "America recognizes Israel's right to defend itself using its own means, anywhere, and to preserve its deterrent capability against all threats."

Sharon conceded that, "The current international atmosphere is against countries having deterrent weapons" adding that "possibly someday, when we achieve peace and all countries disarm, we will also be willing to consider taking a similar step."

That day was clearly not in sight, however. "We have been given clear support from the United States, and it has been made clear that Israel's deterrent capability must not be harmed," he declared.

'A bullet hitting another bullet'
Although the Arrow may not be ready for the challenges of state-of-the-art ballistic missiles, the test represented a formidable technical achievement, one once likened by former U.S. president and general Dwight Eisenhower as "hitting a bullet with another bullet."

"In particular, the Arrow test was a signal in particular to nations like Syria, which has many Scuds, and also to Iran, at a time when Iran is developing a weapon larger than the Scud, with greater range, different angles of flight, a different rate of speed, all of these presenting different problems for the Arrow," Schiff says.

"But when an Iranian reads of the test, he understands that Israel is not alone in this. When a Syrian reads of it, he understands that America is aiding Israel to defend itself against a missile system."

Syrians also privately worry about another element, Schiff adds. "If Israel can intercept a Scud at this range, a Syrian missile with a chemical warhead could explode over the heads of the Syrians themselves."

In Schiff's view, the central importance of the Arrow exercise remains this: "A small state and a superpower, on a sensitive subject on which the small state is vulnerable, are sending a message to Syria and Iran, precisely when Iran is threatening and may be embarking on new [weaponry] developments."

oldsoak
08-03-2004, 06:30 PM
Good point Oldsoak! The Israeli's seem pretty bold, I bet they could have pulled it off!


P'sBandit p-)

- They are very bold. They are also very adept at being able to assess and exploit the essential character of their enemy - put themselves in his shoes in effect etc - far more so than most.

Pep's Bandit
08-03-2004, 07:22 PM
That's pretty interesting cag, it's nice to know that Israel has one up on the AAArabs!

Sayeret
08-04-2004, 01:18 AM
I think it's fair to assume that this is all bollocks.

Nothing would be stopping the Israelis from carrying out these operations and they clearly had the ability to do so. I've heard about Israeli SF a lot in the first GW in the past.

Nizark
08-04-2004, 02:23 AM
I heard about those missions, and how one of our F-14's almost took out an entire SF team because the pilot wasn't told about the team's presence, located somewhere near Jordan

oldsoak
08-04-2004, 05:27 AM
One thing I am concerned about is that revelations of this kind are really best kept under wraps. The US wont use Israelis bullets in Iraq because it might cause offence, so letting out the news that they sanctioned Israeli SF teams is not clever.

Pep's Bandit
08-04-2004, 09:07 PM
Nizark, it says in the artical that the the US fighter jet broke away moments before it was going to shoot the Israeli helicopter out of the sky, I don't know for sure, but I hope that it's the case.

pretorian669
08-05-2004, 03:09 PM
edit

pretorian669
08-05-2004, 03:19 PM
Just had a thought - it could be carried out if the Israelis masqeraded as US troops. Troops would have to be carefully selcted by racial apperance etc and gear provided by the US. Little things like rations with non kosher items to add credence to the story etc should they get caught..

http://community.webshots.com/s/image1/8/67/50/130086750tCnslZ_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/8/65/38/130086538VBUjcd_ph.jpg



http://community.webshots.com/s/image8/4/70/69/130047069eDKJKf_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image8/4/71/27/130047127dbkvFG_ph.jpg

There are tons of U.S. gear in the IDF... ;)

oldsoak
08-05-2004, 06:20 PM
...and British DPM as well allegedly. Theres a guy I've met who claimed to have seen an Israeli soldier with a DPM helmet cover - so maybe we might get impersonated yet ! :)

hahaha
08-05-2004, 08:53 PM
Doubt the Israeli's would post an article with so many spelling mistakes on their military website.

Far
08-06-2004, 02:23 PM
Are there any pics of IDF "special" forces?

DE_Six
08-06-2004, 06:19 PM
Try here:

www.isayeret.com

Many galleries. Most of Mat'kal pics are dated, though. Classified (duh).

Raistlin
08-07-2004, 09:10 PM
Doubt the Israeli's would post an article with so many spelling mistakes on their military website.
It's by no means an official website. Read the about section.

marktigger
08-09-2004, 05:35 AM
interesting that the line is that the Israeli's didn't deploy anything when they were told the British SAS was scud hunting. Interesting that it had to be the SAS and NOT US SF. speaks volumes.

the ramifications of israeli involvment would have been so large i think any US or Israeli government would have had more sense than to take the risk of Israeli SF being caught in Iraq.

BTW there was rumours that a French SF patrol was captured by the Iraqis kept in a hotel and handed over to French forces with all their kit bit of double standards when you look at what happened to the B20 guys.

AROUETLJ
08-09-2004, 08:33 AM
It's not just a rumour. Three 13e RDP soldiers were in fact captured by Iraqi troops, inside Iraq. This was in November 1990 (can't remember the exact date). In December they were repatriated to France. At that point the offensive hadn't started yet, so you can't really compare it to the B20 story. The official line from the French military was that the 13e RDP had crossed the border due to a navigational error (a bit like the Brits in Iranian waters earlier this year), 13e RDP being tasked with forward recce for the XVIII Airborne Corps (was it XVIIIth? correct me if i'm wrong), of which the Division Daguet formed part.

hist2004
08-09-2004, 09:02 AM
interesting that the line is that the Israeli's didn't deploy anything when they were told the British SAS was scud hunting. Interesting that it had to be the SAS and NOT US SF. speaks volumes.

General Norman Schwarzkopf, commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command who led the U.S. offensive
was extremely distrustful of US Special Forces based on his Vietnam experience. Which given the caliber of the
US SOF he had on hand at the time of the Gulf War was a major miscalculation on his part. He had a valuable
asset at his fingertips and didn’t want to utilize it. Lieutenant-General Peter de la Billičre, was a veteran of the SAS,
and a former commander of 22 SAS, who managed to convince Schwarzkopf that the very special skills of the SAS
would be invaluable. An thus, SAS patrols were launched. That is the only reason SAS patrols were sent initially rather
than US SF, not their quality as you suggest.

Regards,
Hist2004

fantassin
08-09-2004, 09:04 AM
Quote

bit of double standards when you look at what happened to the B20 guys.

If you consider that fake execution by pretending to drop the prisoners from an airborne helicopter is cushy, then, yes, double standards....