New US Army Camo Multiple Patterns What!?

[kevlar551]

I hope this works out.

http://kitup.military.com/2010/08/armys-new-camo-could-be-joint.html

[Dan2004]

Can't view the article; I keep getting virus and spyware alerts. What's the gist of it?

[LineDoggie]

Great now PEO Soldier leaves open the possibility of all Services using the same Camo (of course this comes from Myhre who was the No sew on badges guy and model for the ACU).

We have folks, not only from the Air Force, which is very interested in what we’re doing and is taking part in all these assessments and very much wants to see where this goes and leverage whatever the Army becomes, but the Navy and Marine Corps are also watching and seeing what we’re doing. So this has the potential to be a joint service solution at the end of FY ’13.

We used to call that Woodland..........

[Lasse]

That sounds way to complicated. Simple brown gear fits everything... Besides, it gets dirty anyway, and dirt is the best camo.

[seraosha]

Yet again...stop ****ing around, Army and use MARPAT woodland/desert and CB gear.

FFS it's lunacy.

[cbreedon]

X2 I can't believe this has been going on for as long as it has. I think last week I read something here about the Navy having 3 patterns?!!??! Why would the Navy need one camo pattern let alone 3???

[Migs]

EVERYONE NEEDS THE PERFECT CAMO
My countries camo is better then yours!

[miguelencanarias]

Do you know the definition of irony? that back in 2003, this joke they call ACU was supposed to SAVE money, what with the "universal" pattern thing and all.

The reality is, America has spent obscene ammounts of money in the worst combat uniform debacle of her history:

a) The Army, researching and pushing a pattern that simply DOESN'T WORK. So much that it prompted the research of more patterns to solve the mess they created in the first place, and they haven't settled for a definite one yet. Gazillions of dollars wasted producing matching uniforms and gear, and now let's start all over again.

b) The Navy and the Air Force, caught in the pixelated fad and not thinking clearly, researching and fielding brand new uniforms for no real reason but to join the digital pattern wagon and look good. Yet their uniforms are unpractical for their field units, so different patterns had to be used for those units (can you imagine SEALs using the Navy dark blue pixelated uniform? Of course you can't).

c) After all this chaos, the services are coming back to the starting point: common patterns for all of them, forgetting about utopies like "universal patterns" and going back to two, possibly three patterns in all.

Left in the way: enough money to pay for I-don't-know-how-many loads of more needed equipment, Congressional concern, allies saddled with ACU (poor Chileans!) and let's hope not too many casualties.

What can I say. Hats off to the geniouses who did this.

[kutter]

Yet again...stop ****ing around, Army and use MARPAT woodland/desert and CB gear.

FFS it's lunacy.

x2, Looks like the ever practical Marines are the only ones who actually got it right.

[LineDoggie]

**** MARPAT, go back to Woodland and DCU

[miguelencanarias]

Hear, hear!

[Roaming East]

Someone once told me that the other services did not adopt MARPAT because the USMC lobby blocked it. any truth to that?

[miguelencanarias]

Someone once told me that the other services did not adopt MARPAT because the USMC lobby blocked it. any truth to that?

Well, the USMC holds the copyrights for its MARPAT, which was a unique Marine project at the time. You would probably have to put a gun to the head of the USMC Commandant for him to release the copyrights (and see sailors wearing their beloved MARPAT), so I guess it is going to be difficult.

[LineDoggie]

Theres also an EGA repeated in the pattern

[crimsontide]

Well, the USMC holds the copyrights for its MARPAT, which was a unique Marine project at the time. You would probably have to put a gun to the head of the USMC Commandant for him to release the copyrights (and see sailors wearing their beloved MARPAT), so I guess it is going to be difficult.

marpat may be copyrighted by the USMC, but AOR1 and 2 are not and they are virtually identical. I love how they fielded acu completely, but then admitted it sucked so now they are issuing multicam but as a "transitional" pattern only for afghanistan and now they are talking about going to something completely different. what a clusterfvck... and these are the same people who shortly will be running our healthcare, but thats a whole different story :cantbeli:

[joeyl]

I think of this whole thing like a night of heavy drinking: Starts off with a good plan and idea and then as the night progresses you see and hear stranger ideas and things and since you're drunk off your ass you do them. You wake up a few hours later next to a -5 that was a 10 last night wondering what went wrong and how come you didn't stay with the group and now we have to live with this until the guys who make the big bucks saying yeah or neigh to fix it. I mean seriously with have so many patterns with different colors that the new slogan for the US armed forces will be "taste the rainbow" . I'll let your minds wander with that one.

[dangerdan87]

Some Iraqi security guards have the first prototypes of MARPAT which would probably sell for a hefty price on ebay. All it is is traditional MARPAT on the army's style clothing.

[T-5 Killer]

Jesus what a mess, part of me is tempted to find out how much has been spent on camo recently , but another part knows I will feel sick and angry once I see the #s.

[Guam_Guy]

x2, Looks like the ever practical Marines are the only ones who actually got it right.
x2

I wonder what would happen if the Marine Corp got most of the defense budget pie?

[brokenlegdrunk]

navy we should be gettin these soon
https://portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/navfac/nwu
http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/61D926AF-3534-4479-9585-6964073D6269/0/NAV10265.txt

[brainplay]

x2

I wonder what would happen if the Marine Corp got most of the defense budget pie?

They would develop an Army mentality and become just as bad. The tight budgets is what inspires the "make do" attitude. Their choice was far from the most practical. It was just the a rehash of what they've always done. Had the Army actually picked up All Over Brush or Multicam originally as they had been the original winners of the trials then we probably wouldn't be in this mess and "cost efficient" could be spoken without generating a laughing fit.

[Bleifuss]

Hear, hear!

+1

from todays picture thread.........
ACU fail ?

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3523/19993948.jpg

[miguelencanarias]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3523/19993948.jpg

Wow. Some comparisons are just cruel...

Note to the Army's top brass: "Excuse me, what was that you were saying about background noise created by the pixels and how effective ACU was, again?

[big_les]

That sounds way to complicated. Simple brown gear fits everything... Besides, it gets dirty anyway, and dirt is the best camo.

That's actually the original rationale for adopting khaki in the British army - warm-weather gear used to be pure white and needed a lot of cleaning. Khaki was still cooler than red serge, and lower maintenance. The camo benefit was secondary for standard infantry (the guides had used khaki much further back, but were using small unit tactics more like skirmishers/riflemen than standard Victorian infantry tactics).

[dersammler]

Some Iraqi security guards have the first prototypes of MARPAT which would probably sell for a hefty price on ebay. All it is is traditional MARPAT on the army's style clothing.
Why do you think so? I know the Iraqi digital desert "ACUs" but these are Chinese made AFAIK..

[grenadier07]

I wonder if someone will wise up and stop the abortion that is the ASU as well.

[dangerdan87]

Why do you think so? I know the Iraqi digital desert "ACUs" but these are Chinese made AFAIK..

Because it had American tags, was 50/50 blend and had EGA's

Most were Chinese or Hong Kong, but there was some American stuff too.

[LineDoggie]

x2

I wonder what would happen if the Marine Corp got most of the defense budget pie?They would retrofit Abrams tanks to fit Bayonets on the muzzle

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/marinebear.jpg

:lol:

[Wilco]

They would retrofit Abrams tanks to fit Bayonets on the muzzle

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/marinebear.jpg

:lol:

Hey now, you just never know when you're gonna need a bayonet.

[Flecktarn92]

Do you know the definition of irony? that back in 2003, this joke they call ACU was supposed to SAVE money, what with the "universal" pattern thing and all.

The reality is, America has spent obscene ammounts of money in the worst combat uniform debacle of her history:

a) The Army, researching and pushing a pattern that simply DOESN'T WORK. So much that it prompted the research of more patterns to solve the mess they created in the first place, and they haven't settled for a definite one yet. Gazillions of dollars wasted producing matching uniforms and gear, and now let's start all over again.

b) The Navy and the Air Force, caught in the pixelated fad and not thinking clearly, researching and fielding brand new uniforms for no real reason but to join the digital pattern wagon and look good. Yet their uniforms are unpractical for their field units, so different patterns had to be used for those units (can you imagine SEALs using the Navy dark blue pixelated uniform? Of course you can't).

c) After all this chaos, the services are coming back to the starting point: common patterns for all of them, forgetting about utopies like "universal patterns" and going back to two, possibly three patterns in all.

Left in the way: enough money to pay for I-don't-know-how-many loads of more needed equipment, Congressional concern, allies saddled with ACU (poor Chileans!) and let's hope not too many casualties.

What can I say. Hats off to the geniouses who did this.

very true but great for collectors

[greendzflash]

That sounds way to complicated. Simple brown gear fits everything... Besides, it gets dirty anyway, and dirt is the best camo.

i think the colour you are refering to is KHAKI.......

[dangerdan87]

"Khaki" colored dirt isnt everywhere. Dirt is red in Hawaii...
Just sayin'

[Lasse]

i think the colour you are refering to is KHAKI.......Nope, I am referring to brown. Khaki is great in arid\desert areas, but in woodland most khakis are a bit too bright imo, maybe it's the reason why most woodland camos doesn't have khaki but they do have brown. A brown (Coyote 498 is so ****ing sweet) can blend in both woodland and desert areas.

[Guam_Guy]

They would develop an Army mentality and become just as bad. The tight budgets is what inspires the "make do" attitude. Their choice was far from the most practical. It was just the a rehash of what they've always done. Had the Army actually picked up All Over Brush or Multicam originally as they had been the original winners of the trials then we probably wouldn't be in this mess and "cost efficient" could be spoken without generating a laughing fit.

I guess money makes people retarted then. Seems like the top brass like to play politics more than war fighting.

LOL Rename the Abrams to the M-1A3 Puller. :lol:

[miguelencanarias]

LOL Rename the Abrams to the M-1A3 Puller. :lol:

Nah, the M-1A3 Chesty. The Chesty!! Sounds even more awesome.

[Snapdad]

Basically the same idea the Brits had before MTP. The intermediate DPM was pretty cool.

[TallGuy]

I think the best color for field gear would be the South African Nutria brown.


My SADF M83 chest webbing:

http://a.imageshack.us/img18/8159/m83chestrigkk4.jpg

[Mein Teil]

… what our intent is to have a suite, if you will, that can reach from the desert to that multi-terrain area all the way to that jungle/woodland area. … The idea would be to have a pattern that has 5-8 colors across the three different uniforms and on the [packs and web gear, etc]



Uhm...MULTICAM??? With all the money they've spent on tests and fiddle fvcking around with flops like ACU they could have bought each soldier 4 sets of Crye or MARPAT(great pattern if you remove the black) IMO.

[para944]

Why should they remove the black?

It's a common missconception that black ins't found in nature and therefor conspicuous, but it's not: black creates a kind of visual detph effect which fools the human eye.

[Mein Teil]

Why should they remove the black?

It's a common missconception that black ins't found in nature and therefor conspicuous, but it's not: black creates a kind of visual detph effect which fools the human eye.

Colors like dark brown and grays work better as they are more common than black. Black works well on CADPAT, but it's not a very universal camo.

[para944]

Grey? Don't you learn in the US armed forces: grey is gay? Of course other colours have the same effect but black has the biggest contrast which is actually necesarry to create such an effect in an usefull manner.

[Flecktarn92]

the US should learn from the Austrian's solid colored uniforms (although I believe their moving to digital):
134210

[cbreedon]

Yes but their country is a big desert so a solid color would work well.

[Mein Teil]

Yes but their country is a big desert so a solid color would work well.

...don't you mean the other Austria?

[cbreedon]

...don't you mean the other Austria?

There's only one. You can tell since they are carrying Steyr's

[Mein Teil]

There's only one. You can tell since they are carrying Steyr's

The Austria with the big desert or the Austria with pine trees and snow capped mountains?;)

[Sandgroper]

The Austria with the big desert or the Austria with pine trees and snow capped mountains?;)

Both use Steyrs. The alpine-type Austrians wear solid colour unifroms, desert Austrians wear Auscam.

[Mein Teil]

Both use Styers. The alpine-type Austrians wear solid colour unifroms, desert Austrians wear Auscam.

Smart A$$!:lol:

[Sandgroper]

I know, I'm no fun. :(

[firemedic]

We should just go with multicam and OD green gear and be done with it. Give us the option to wear UCP in garrison until the wear out date. And get rid of the black beret. Problem solved.

[LineDoggie]

We should just go with multicam and OD green gear and be done with it. Give us the option to wear UCP in garrison until the wear out date. And get rid of the black beret. Problem solved.
But, but Shinseki was a Genius, get rid of the Beret......... what will I do for a Dog Frisbee then?

[miguelencanarias]

And get rid of the black beret. Problem solved.

Half the Ranger regiment is still in therapy after they took their black berets from them, and now you want to remove them altogether? You, sir, have no heart.

[firemedic]

Half the Ranger regiment is still in therapy after they took their black berets from them, and now you want them to remove them altogether? You, sir, have no heart. LOL the Rangers can keep'em!. Just about every soldier I know hates the beret and wears the patrol cap at every opportunity. The only weather that the beret is good for is on cold overcast dry days. It keeps the top of my head and the top half of my right ear nice and toasty.

[budgie]

When do we get a look at the trial patterns?

[Lasse]

When do we get a look at the trial patterns?Probably after they spend half a gazillion of your tax dollars on it. And that's just for the trails ;)

[seraosha]

When do we get a look at the trial patterns?

Hit the airsoft forums and websites. They are currently hitting home runs in the predictions dept.

[Snapdad]

Probably after they spend half a gazillion of your tax dollars on it.

and then cancel it

[miguelencanarias]

That's the US Army for you, baby.

134632

[Gus]

Guam-Guy wrote:

I guess money makes people retarted then. Seems like the top brass like to play politics more than war fighting.
Welcome GG. How was your trip to our planet? ;)


Lasse wrote:

Probably after they spend half a gazillion of your tax dollars on it. And that's just for the trails
R&D is far more profitable than actual production of military goods. The guys who sell fighter jets to the Air Force and Navy figured that one out a long time ago.


My pet peeve is that, back in the day, a squared away troop usually looked pretty damn sharp in his BDUs. You could usually get a darn good shave on the pleats and the BDUs would have enough starch in them to give them a higher ballistic value than a WWII steel pot. Oh, and don't forget those two cool little tabs on each side that did a great job of pulling the bagginess out of it. Now it seems okay for everybody, privates to generals, to look like they've been sleeping in their cool new digiform for most of the week. Very unprofessional.

I don't know why this is. Perhaps the standards are more lax in today's military (which I doubt), or, more likely, the new material simply can't hold a press when the humidity is over 3% (ie: anywhere outside of Death Valley). The new stuff doesn't seem to be nearly as durable as good old BDUs either. But of course the DoD will buy twice as many of anything that only lasts half as long.

My other pet peeve is senior officers who wear utilities in situations were they may not be the most appropriate. Rule of thumb, if a civilian executive can wear a suit and tie to his office job every day, so can you. But I'll let this peeve rest here.

Carry on.

[Guam_Guy]

Gus wrote:
Welcome GG. How was your trip to our planet? ;-)

Pretty nice. I will be stay in about 6 years. For now I'll be returning back to teenage youth and irresponsibility

[HGRazorR]

My other pet peeve is senior officers who wear utilities in situations were they may not be the most appropriate. Rule of thumb, if a civilian executive can wear a suit and tie to his office job every day, so can you. But I'll let this peeve rest here.


x2 - especially at 26 Federal Plaza in NYC. Air Force are in service uniform and Marines are in Class B's and all civilians are in suits or at the least business casual. Then you got the Army guys walking around in ACUs. It just comes off as, I dunno, goofy and out of touch amongst the sea of suits.

[seraosha]

... goofy and out of touch amongst the sea of suits.

Working as intended.

[joeyl]

Alright I'll admit as much as I hate this I have to say I am interested in the process they use to pick. I am curious to see if the previous winner All-over brush will win again or will they try to put od and earth brown in the current UCP as a cheap cop out. Too bad its going to take forever

[MichaelF]

http://a-tacs.com/2010/07/photo-shoot-at-gti-new-images-new-gear/

The more I see it, the more A-TACS grows on me.

[SilentType]

http://a-tacs.com/2010/07/photo-shoot-at-gti-new-images-new-gear/

The more I see it, the more A-TACS grows on me.

Looks like another "urban" centered camo color scheme to me. No thanks.

[Mr.Armageddon]

http://a-tacs.com/2010/07/photo-shoot-at-gti-new-images-new-gear/

The more I see it, the more A-TACS grows on me.

That actually is a pretty sweet pattern, but I still don't see it as a huge improvement over multicam.

[Michael F]

Army Preparing to Produce Baseline Camo Gear for Testing (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/02/22/army-preparing-to-produce-baseline-camo-gear-for-testing/)

Wednesday, February 22nd, 2012Natick has released a Special Notice (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=31a535f2a354dd313ba78056a3e06a1b&tab=core&_cview=0) making known their intent to “negotiate on a sole source basis with Beyond Clothing, LLC (http://tactical.beyondclothing.com/)” to produce 310 sets of “AOR 1/2 Fabric (50/50 Nyco), Helmet Covers, Pants and Blouses. These uniforms are among the baseline uniforms required for camouflage testing and evaluation.”
Army-style uniforms and OCIE do not exist in the AOR 1 & 2 patterns. What’s more, the patterns are restricted, so any gear must be manufactured by a company already certified to handle the fabric. OCP, or as it is commercially known, MultiCam is the other baseline pattern for the upcoming field trial phase of the US Army Camouflage Improvement Effort. Due to its use in Afghanistan, there is already an ample supply of the equipment available.
One interesting note. Currently, OCP is only issued as the FR ACU and not the standard FR ACU. While much work has been done to color match dyed TenCate’s Defender-M fabric used to manufacture the FR ACU, the pattern may look differently than it would when printed on 50/50 NYCO. This is a variance that will have to be considered in performance unless the Army also pursues the acquisition of an adequate number of OCP NYCO test uniforms. If they are commercially sourced, further care will need to be taken that such uniforms are not in the so-called MultiCam VS print which does not provide NIR protection.
These ‘baseline’ Government issue patterns will be pitted against four commercial families of patterns (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/01/10/army-announces-camouflage-improvement-effort-finalists/)to determine the best performer and possible new Army issue camouflage.
The commercial finalists are:
ADS Inc as Prime, partnered with Guy Cramer (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=a96a409130d3cc08e0e8ef6911b8caeb&_cview=0)
Brookwood Companies (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=7ad82baf4bc3ed6f4a812fc7306bfc64&_cview=0)
Crye Precision (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=8a058a5f67521bf63b2b1e89713084c8&_cview=0)
Kryptek (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=1cc933e1b5e1cc217311ce714501e7ac&_cview=0)

Dun-dun-dun!

While this looks like simply covering their asses....AOR patterns are pretty nice. Since it seems that OCP/Multicam is doomed to die with Afghanistan, I could live with the Navy patterns.

[Darius137]

Dun-dun-dun!

While this looks like simply covering their asses....AOR patterns are pretty nice. Since it seems that OCP/Multicam is doomed to die with Afghanistan, I could live with the Navy patterns.


They are trying to get sets made for a baseline to compare against with the upcoming trials of the four commercial patterns.

And OCP/Multicam is made by Crye, which is one of the four commercial finalists. Crye submitted a family of patterns, which are going to be very similar to the current Multicam pattern, which they actually designed as a joint project with the gub'ment back when we chose UCP over them.

http://pdxtac.com/2035/gear/the-age-of-digital-camouflage/

[BloodyTalon]

http://a-tacs.com/2010/07/photo-shoot-at-gti-new-images-new-gear/

The more I see it, the more A-TACS grows on me.
As much as I hate the constant back and forth over camo, that looks like a pretty good pattern. Definitely an improvement from UCP.

[miguelencanarias]

Definitely an improvement from UCP.

Not that this would be too difficult, but I see your point.

[BMF]

having seen the desert A-TACS up close and personal...I would not choose to wear it, if given the option. just my opinion.

[DasVivo]

As a question to those in the US Serving; What is the actual sentiment of troops overall regarding Uniforms? Particulary that of Army Personnel... Is there a strong desire to get something new yet again or that the current UCP *MUST* Go?
It seems there has been so much uniform change over the last few years that the Army should have to wear its mistake to set an example to itself about its procurement, though of course I wouldnt wish that upon the regular soldiers if misgivings are as serious about the UCP as I gather they are...

Also is that Serious that the Marines have a Copyright on their own pattern? Surely the Federal Government if necessary could just blow that off? Personally I'd rather the Men in any branch of my nations service to have the best gear necessary rather than simply keep it to ourselves as a form of branding (if you're reliant strictly on a combat uniform for espirt de corps/recruitment something is wrong, and I doubt the marines suffer from that)

[suhsjake]

Yes, there is a strong desire for UCP to go away, especially amongst the grunts and boots who are out in the field. It is a total failure forced upon us by the higher ups just like the beret. UCP wasn't even the most effective camouflage based on the ordinal tests (that went to skorpion which later became Multicam). If they want good camouflage, let the infantry and other boots pick the camouflage, not a desk jockey or officer. Let the actual enlisted infantry, combat engineers, medics, and MPs choose the camouflage.

No, the Marines don't have a copy right to MARPAT, just a license as it is based off CADPAT.

[BMF]

Yes, there is a strong desire for UCP to go away, especially amongst the grunts and boots who are out in the field. It is a total failure forced upon us by the higher ups just like the beret. UCP wasn't even the most effective camouflage based on the ordinal tests (that went to skorpion which later became Multicam). If they want good camouflage, let the infantry and other boots pick the camouflage, not a desk jockey or officer. Let the actual enlisted infantry, combat engineers, medics, and MPs choose the camouflage.

No, the Marines don't have a copy right to MARPAT, just a license as it is based off CADPAT.

concur on all (except for the officer part dammit, we're not all desk jockeys...as I write this from my desk). Having used UCP in Iraq on two of three deployments, I wholeheartedly support the Army's push to replace it.

[DasVivo]

concur on all (except for the officer part dammit, we're not all desk jockeys...as I write this from my desk). Having used UCP in Iraq on two of three deployments, I wholeheartedly support the Army's push to replace it.

The question I have then to follow on is, Should this be an immediate priority in your mind given current budgetry complaints? Or is it something that you can cope with versus a miriad of other things you'd rather have done... (My question could be written better I realise, I just wonder how pressing this is)

[suhsjake]

concur on all (except for the officer part dammit, we're not all desk jockeys...as I write this from my desk). Having used UCP in Iraq on two of three deployments, I wholeheartedly support the Army's push to replace it.

Roger that sir. That is why I went enlisted, instead of finishing ROTC, as I absolutely hate paper work.

Absolutely DasVivo. It should be one of the top priorities as the boots should be the priority. Get it done while the Army is transitioning to peace time so that it doesn't cost a boat load in the rapid fielding initiatives in the next war.

[Soldat_Américain]

We actually have a thread that has followed Phase IV continuously...started by me...so please, go there:http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?181981-Army-Camo-Phase-IV&highlight=

[Virus]

Yes, pretty much every person in my current unit would love to just stick with OCP(Multicams) and just throw the UCP down trash. Having worn it for the past 2-3 months, I can say that after going outside I didn't feel like some sort of blue/grey beacon/target. Although I will say that when I was in Iraq, certain situations my UCP worked well, once it had been worn in and faded slightly, it seemed to work well at night.

[BMF]

my .02? I'd place this rather high on the priorities list. If you think about the $ sunk into other projects, uniforms/OCIE are what I'd call "an easy win" financially. If you think about how quickly the US Army responded to this uniform issue in Afghanistan, that should give you some idea of the projects importance. Some of the Soldiers where I am at are prepping for OEF wearing the uniform, it is a MAJOR improve on ACU.

[PMI]

No, the Marines don't have a copy right to MARPAT, just a license as it is based off CADPAT.

The patent for MARPAT & the MCCUU is held by the Secretary of the Navy (No. 6,805,957 B1).

The pattern was granted to the USMC (with the understanding that there would be minor changes to differentiate it from CADPAT) via a bilateral exchange agreement with the Canadians so no licensing was required.