New 7.62 MG - HK 121 [Archive]

pmj

08-26-2010, 07:07 AM

These are the first public photos after the gun was presented at the "day of the infantry" in Hammelburg. The HK 121 is scheduled to replace the aging Rheinmetall MG3 for both mounted and dismounted use in the German Army.
Note the nifty drum mag ( or is it just a "belt-pouch"?) and the new scope by Zeiss / Hensoldt. The G36 will be updated with new 4 X 30 power scopes as well - those are however not battery-powered as the one in the pictures.
If you look very carefully you can spot the HK 417 - which is rumored to be fielded as the new Bundeswehr DMR G27.

http://www.abload.de/img/indexj45k.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/indexo16d.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/4094_12_20100813071347reph.jpg

BLUE THOR

08-26-2010, 07:19 AM

although I have only used the MG3 once, when I knicked it off a Leopard Tank in Puckapunyal one exercise, I think a weapon that has remained basically unchanged since the 1940's is a decent piece of kit.
However, modernisation is a necessary step in every army after a set period.
Being a HK, I have no doubt it far exceeds the MG3, but I'm a nostalgic type...

Lasse

08-26-2010, 07:27 AM

The MG3 has a slower ROF than the 42, but it's still awesome. Only thing that sucks is when you try to change the bolt, and the rollerlocks get jammed half way in.
I'd love to see a comparison between the Mk48 and this..

dobrodan

08-26-2010, 07:39 AM

The MG-3 has approximately the same ROF as the MG-42: Around 1200rpm (without the heavy bolt, adopted by some countries)

The MG-3 is good, but it is outdated as an infantry-weapon, although it may still have a long life as a vehicle- or tripod-mounted weapon.

Steak-Sauce

08-26-2010, 07:43 AM

Great post, pmj! woot

Mackie

08-26-2010, 08:12 AM

I welcome the return of the 7,62 caliber with the HK121 and the 417.

NJB

08-26-2010, 08:49 AM

What other changes / upgrades will happen with the G36 in addition to the new sight ? any ideas ? thanks

JCR

08-26-2010, 08:53 AM

The MG3 has a slower ROF than the 42, but it's still awesome. Only thing that sucks is when you try to change the bolt, and the rollerlocks get jammed half way in.

Lol, happened to the guy next to me in basic, and ended with me (smallest guy in the squad) getting assigned MG gunner for a while (before I convinced another dumb guy that carrying the MG was kinda cool and I became assistant gunner ;)).
Embarassing in training but potentially lethal in combat.

But I wonder if the new HK thing can compete with the MG3 in terms of simplicity.
I always admired the design, crude yet efficient: A weapon designed for war by soldiers.

I doubt the new weapon will last 60 years in service.

pmj

08-26-2010, 10:07 AM

@NJB: No further news concerning the G36, but the optics update was long overdue. The stock 3 power scope feels like looking through a straw. The new 4x30 Zeiss Scope has a much bigger field of view, maybe even bigger than a an ACOG. But I guess the G36 will get a new adjustable stock as the IDZ-program continues.

The new rifle scope: http://www.zeiss.de/C1257088004A3F3C/EmbedTitelIntern/4x30Zieloptik/$File/4x30Zieloptik_d.pdf

Back to the HK 121: all I know is that the mg is supposed to be lighter than the MG3 - maybe someone with more background knowledge like Remov has more substantial data ;)
Apparently HK is working on three different 7.62 MG's: the HK 121, another MG based on the FN MAG for the UK MOD, and finally a lighweight 7.62 MG for another unspecified customer *cough* (at least that's what the roumor-mill says;) )

@ JCR: the MG3 /42 was ahead of its time, but it's complicated to ehhh accessorize the gun with optics, lasers etc... the safety is not up to date as well.

Hexer

08-26-2010, 10:36 AM

Is it already known when the first MG3s will be replaced?

pmj

08-26-2010, 10:48 AM

Is it already known when the first MG3s will be replaced?

I heard 2012, but you never know...

JCR

08-26-2010, 11:10 AM

... the safety is not up to date as well.

Lol the safety consists of some pin which you have to press in to make the gun safe, and push out from the other side to make it ready for firing.
They told us it was added after the war and my grandfather at least claims the MG 42 had no safety pin.

whiskey

08-26-2010, 12:38 PM

Lol the safety consists of some pin which you have to press in to make the gun safe, and push out from the other side to make it ready for firing.
They told us it was added after the war and my grandfather at least claims the MG 42 had no safety pin.
its the same safty mechanism like on the M249 AFAIK.

i was a MG gunner while basic training, had a hard time humping that monster around, but thinking back i wouldnt want to miss it, iam not really happy with replacing this beautiful gun, im nostalgic ;)
but at the same time i hear stories about a looot of MG3's which are simply broken, parts missing, or not working in other ways...
its maybe on time to replace it...
i also met a lot of gents in service which didnt even get MG training... many times because of the things i mentioned...

vajt

08-26-2010, 07:30 PM

Nice looking weapon. I wonder how much it weighs and how this compares to the lightweight FN 7.62mm gpmg.

-----JT-----

Andreas

08-27-2010, 07:04 AM

@ JCR: the MG3 /42 was ahead of its time, but it's complicated to ehhh accessorize the gun with optics, lasers etc... the safety is not up to date as well.

Indeed, truly a classic that works well with well trained operators even today so many years after its creation.
Its possible to add optics, but it requires some modification of the ammo lid, its done today but its what you would call a jimmy-fix, solider done.

In my experience the weapon is still relevant today all things considered, if you have a well trained team working it..
Seeing a MG-team effectivly engage targets at 600m with steel sights is a pretty interesting sight..

I wonder what kind of weight reduction we are talking with the new system, and what rate of fire it has..

pmj

08-27-2010, 09:06 AM

@ Andreas: I would like to know the specs as well but none have surfaced so far. The gun was built to compete with MG's like the FN MAG / M240 - so I guess it won't be superlight since it must be able to handle a high volume of fire and still have long service life with no parts breakages. HK has learned quite a lot about mgs in recent years (MG4, UK gpmg ) - so I guess we can assume it's just as reliable (or more) as the competition.

ayanami_tard

08-27-2010, 10:22 AM

this guns makes rambo-ing possible

M60 is nice i know,but...

budgie

08-28-2010, 10:58 PM

Looks a lot like the FNs

trunk_munkey28

08-29-2010, 12:30 AM

Is this supposed to be a GPMG o a 7.62 LMG, like the Mk. 48?

Ubar

08-29-2010, 05:21 AM

Read the first post...

The HK 121 is scheduled to replace the aging Rheinmetall MG3 for both mounted and dismounted use in the German Army.

pmj

08-29-2010, 09:30 AM

Is this supposed to be a GPMG o a 7.62 LMG, like the Mk. 48?

In the beginning there was some talk that HK and the Bundeswehr considered designing a true 7.62 LMG for dismounted infantry ala' PKM / Pecheng (all rumors mind you ;) ). Eventually the Bundeswehr wanted a real bullet-hose - so far there is no info on how much the HK 121 wheighs. That would answer some questions about how this gun would / could be used.

RSone

08-29-2010, 09:53 AM

Is this a evolution of the MG 4? For some reason, they seem rather similar to me in outward appearance.

pmj

08-29-2010, 10:22 AM

Is this a evolution of the MG 4? For some reason, they seem rather similar to me in outward appearance.

So far noone knows what's under that hood, but my personal uneducated guess is that the HK 121 is more than just an upscaled MG4. I guess the action could be similar.

variable

08-30-2010, 01:15 PM

What will be the official Bundeswehr designation? MG5?

REMOV

09-08-2010, 02:05 PM

Back to the HK 121: all I know is that the mg is supposed to be lighter than the MG3 - maybe someone with more background knowledge like Remov has more substantial dataAFAIK the weight of the prototype shown in Hammelburg was 10,8 kg.

pmj

09-09-2010, 10:16 AM

AFAIK the weight of the prototype shown in Hammelburg was 10,8 kg.

Ahhh thank you! :)

10,8 kg - pretty much the same weight as the M240. It seems HK is trying to compete against the FN Mag / M240 rather than the Mk 48. It makes sense with both the UK and France looking to replace their old GPMG's.
Maybe they'll build a lighter PKM-style gun someday....

ancientgrump

09-20-2010, 09:33 AM

There was also some speculation that it could be similar to the MAG internally, since HK got the contract from the UK MOD to make them.

I guess time will tell.

REMOV

09-20-2010, 04:06 PM

There was also some speculation that it could be similar to the MAG internally, since HK got the contract from the UK MOD to make them.There is not. The MAG design is well known from mid 1950s, so the H&K has a half of century to learn about it, not the last few years, when then started to manufacture the GPMG ;)

ancientgrump

09-20-2010, 06:56 PM

I haven't seen any internals photos of the HK 121, so it's pure speculation on my part what the beast's guts look like. The weight at least would be consistent with some sort of rear locking system.

In any case, HK had their line of roller-locked belt fed weapons previously. Only recently have they developed any interest in copying 50 year old breech mechanisms like that of the AR-16.

REMOV

09-21-2010, 01:56 AM

Ekhm... have you ever heard about G36 or MG4? What roller-locked? Have you been frozen nearly 20 years or what? I think that you've missed one generation of weapons from Oberndorf ;)

jklv

09-21-2010, 03:30 AM

Should be called MG5

Hyde

09-21-2010, 05:11 AM

Can anyone tell my why the scope needs a battery?

Bro Jangles

09-21-2010, 05:12 AM

Can anyone tell my why the scope needs a battery?
either a red dot or illuminated reticule.

REMOV

09-21-2010, 06:50 AM

Should be called MG5...or MG7.

ancientgrump

09-21-2010, 11:25 AM

Ekhm... have you ever heard about G36 or MG4? What roller-locked? Have you been frozen nearly 20 years or what? I think that you've missed one generation of weapons from Oberndorf ;)

That's my point. For most of the previous 50 years HK had to look at other designs they were sticking to their roller system. They even tried to make a .50 with rollers. Some financial difficulties later and they've moved on, but it's only been in the last fifteen years or so that they've started adopting outside designed breech mechanisms in their shoulder fired small arms. Sure, they did offer to make MG3s for the Bundeswehr at one point, but that was more of a gambit to force Rheinmetall to stop making G3s...

Briggs

09-21-2010, 08:08 PM

That HK121 reminds me of the FN MAG...It's a shame really if the German government would buy HK121's without a fair competition. 10.8 kg sounds light...the new FN Minimi 7.62 is 8.6KG with 11.9 for the FN MAG (all empty/unloaded).

variable

09-22-2010, 05:24 AM

Even if there was a competition they'd eventually adopt the HK product to protect the economy.

Steak-Sauce

09-22-2010, 05:56 AM

Even if there was a competition they'd eventually adopt the HK product to protect the economy.
Maybe even because it could share a few parts with the MG4, thus making logistics and training easier.

Briggs

09-22-2010, 06:28 AM

Maybe even because it could share a few parts with the MG4, thus making logistics and training easier.

Sure, whatever suits their arguments to bypass any fair market competition. I guess the European Union only suits them when it goes their way.

Magister

09-22-2010, 06:53 AM

AFAIK there are no EU rules at all when it comes to defense / public safety spending. Fair market competition is only encouraged in those areas not bound to EU laws regarding tendering. Anyway, although not flawless HK weapons are of good quality.

On topic: since it is meant for mounted use, will new vehicles like the Puma IFV be equiped with this weapon instead of the MG4 in the current design? A 7.62mm mg would be more effective than a 5.56mm one IMO.

bikewrench

09-22-2010, 07:03 AM

Smells like Mk48, with mustard and kraut.

Briggs

09-22-2010, 07:09 AM

shuredgefan

09-22-2010, 10:40 PM

I'd like to see this, rather cool looking new gun, tested against the new titanium receivered M240L (http://peosoldier.armylive.dodlive.mil/2010/04/20/making-the-army%E2%80%99s-first-titanium-machine-gun/) the US Army and Marines are just starting to deploy.

REMOV

04-06-2011, 06:30 PM

He219

04-06-2011, 06:40 PM

Nice pic, REMOV. Thanks for sharing!

Smells like Mk48, with mustard and kraut.
:lol: best post of 9-22-10

marcellogo

04-06-2011, 07:59 PM

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2671/chorwacja10.jpg

The HK121 was shown at the Croatian military expo ASDA a few days ago. It most probably means that the 7,62-mm machine gun will be officialy promoted at the international market.

Still photo comes from a ASDA movie from dnevnik.hr (http://dnevnik.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/ovo-je-prilika-da-ponudimo-svoje-ocito-uspjesne-proizvode.html). Thanks to alvarhanso for a power of observation ;)

Like first foreign customer it make a lot of sense: Croatians are in process to completely switching to Nato calibers, for the assault rifle they have developed its own issue but they would not develop a SAW/LMG derivative from it , neither would develop a dedicated GPMG 'cause the small numbers they need: so being the first foreign customer or also start a licence production of a brand new weapon would be the smartest move possible.
Fun things is that unlike 5,56mm, the older 7.62mm is completely new issue for them as a standard issue caliber.

alvarhanso

04-08-2011, 12:49 PM

Thanks to alvarhanso for a power of observation ;)

NP. :)
Still... very little info (or pics) on this weapon on the net. I've seen more pics of the Loch Ness monster. (c:
There's suppose to be a detailed article on it in the January/February issue of K-Isom Kommando magazine.
http://strikehold.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/kommando-issue-15/

alvarhanso

04-10-2011, 07:07 PM

http://i56.tinypic.com/99f91u.jpg

REMOV

04-18-2011, 12:49 PM

http://h-5.abload.de/img/hk121fs3kac.jpg
The 7,62-mm H&K HK121 machine gun field stripped.

REMOV

04-18-2011, 12:56 PM

You're tired, I am afraid. The HK121 has nothing in common with MAG or Minimi (what is "FN Mk 248" I don't know?!). It is just scaled up H&K MG43/MG4 plus some minor modification - the effect of the different and stronger ammunition.

REMOV

04-18-2011, 01:02 PM

The FN Mk 48 is a light machine gun (LMG), the H&K HK121 is a general purpose machine gun (GPMG), basically the replacement of the Rheinmetall MG3 GPMG. A different class of the machine gun.

hOMEr_jAy

04-18-2011, 01:14 PM

So, according to this photo, could we assume that the HK 121 is a gas-operated weapon, firing with a closed bolt?
If so, aren´t closed-bolt weapons quite ****e of "cooking-off"?

flanker7

04-18-2011, 01:18 PM

Why do you assume a close bild operation?

REMOV

04-18-2011, 01:44 PM

So, according to this photo, could we assume that the HK 121 is a gas-operated weapon, firing with a closed bolt? According to the photo - as well as in the reality - the H&K HK121 machine gun fires from open bolt.

hOMEr_jAy

04-18-2011, 01:46 PM

Why do you assume a close bild operation? Actually, you´re right. The gas rod attached to the bolt carrier doesn´t necessarily mean that it´s working with a closed bolt.
Thanks for the answer, Remov!

gafkiwi

04-18-2011, 02:24 PM

Either I'm tired or I'm looking at an HK perfected FN MK 248...

I suppose its more along the lines of, if you know the internals of a MAG-58 you'd recognise the parts/design/features of a Minimi, MK-48 or the HK 121

REMOV

04-18-2011, 03:29 PM

I suppose its more along the lines of, if you know the internals of a MAG-58 you'd recognise the parts/design/features of a Minimi, MK-48 or the HK 121Your assumption is wrong. But, if you know the internals of the American BAR or German MG42 you'd recognize parts and features copied in MAG 58 ;)

PS. A little story about new weapon: http://www.altair.com.pl/start-6143 (unfortunately in Polish, but - use a Google Translator (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.altair.com.pl%2Fstart-6143))

Snapdad

04-18-2011, 06:41 PM

Looks sexy.

gafkiwi

04-19-2011, 04:04 AM

Your assumption is wrong. But, if you know the internals of the American BAR or German MG42 you'd recognize parts and features copied in MAG 58 ;)[/url])

Damn you, I knew you'd bring the MG42 up (don't know much about the BAR), was going to mention it, but then decided not to as I am not personally familiar or experianced with it. Didnt want to "That Guy" who talks about a weapon he's has no actual personal knowledge or experiance on. Unlike yourself, who's become somewhat of a quoteable source of info and images around here.

Do you know if it uses an adjustable gas regulator (MAG 58 etc) or a self regulating buffer type system (some 5.56 & 7.62 Minimi's) to regulate its rate of fire?