Germany Needs More Foreigners [Archive]

Mu-Meson

08-30-2010, 11:28 PM

dttk0009

08-30-2010, 11:32 PM

I fail to see how Germany needs more foreigners.

Hyde

08-30-2010, 11:44 PM

The real headline should be "Germany needs more children", and not foreigners. Idiot journalists.

Ordie

08-31-2010, 12:25 AM

Why does this issue only affects countries that have limited immigration and low birth rates?

Shurik SST

08-31-2010, 12:36 AM

Yo, simpleton. He said aging, not shrinking. Do you really think a nation with 40% of the population over the age of 50 is gonna have the same economy/politics/international standing/military power as a nation with 40% of the population under the age of 18? Who is gonna support the welfare state when everyone is retired? Who is gonna join the army if there are no kids? An aging nation loses its vibrancy, it's adaptability, and eventually it loses its very future.
Demography is to look at long term and evolving trends in a population. Just looking at the here and now is like looking at the opening scene in a movie, and claiming to know how it ends.

If you claim I can not say how the movie ends you can't say how it end either. In any case, technology is the future. People used to need 7 kids to work the small family farm to eek out a living. Not the case anymore. Armies needed millions to equate firing power of single vessels today. Economies needed millions at work just to provide basics, now thousands manufacture goods that millions consume. No need to be so afraid of the future. Even in 50% of Germany is older than 50 years, that still leaves millions of Germans under 20 years. What they need to do is adjust their policies and favor a certain demographic stability . No need to reach for some big growth as the environment might be the next limiting factor nobody wants to push against.

Even if aging, medicine and other advances are lengthening the productive life of individuals. People are more active, productive. Older people need not work in the field but with computers etc. Retirement age is already being pushed higher all over the developed world. Why should we be afraid of doing it more? People already live longer, why be afraid of even longer? Developed nations are already struggling with unemployment. Why would prolific foreigners with tremendous cultural and religions strain they bring make things better?

What higher social good are unemployed Arab youth bringing to France???

Aging population is a red herring as we are already far ahead in extending natural lives, productive years, using mechanization and automation etc etc and nothing equates to needing more culturally un-assimilated, unemployed or otherwise maladjusted foreign youths.

PeterG

08-31-2010, 12:48 AM

Ordie

08-31-2010, 01:44 AM

Snapdad

08-31-2010, 01:53 AM

Perhaps Norway should stop being a welfare state.

Probably not seeing as how well they are doing with that arrangement.

BlackWarder

08-31-2010, 02:13 AM

If you claim I can not say how the movie ends you can't say how it end either. In any case, technology is the future. People used to need 7 kids to work the small family farm to eek out a living. Not the case anymore. Armies needed millions to equate firing power of single vessels today. Economies needed millions at work just to provide basics, now thousands manufacture goods that millions consume. No need to be so afraid of the future. Even in 50% of Germany is older than 50 years, that still leaves millions of Germans under 20 years. What they need to do is adjust their policies and favor a certain demographic stability . No need to reach for some big growth as the environment might be the next limiting factor nobody wants to push against.

Even if aging, medicine and other advances are lengthening the productive life of individuals. People are more active, productive. Older people need not work in the field but with computers etc. Retirement age is already being pushed higher all over the developed world. Why should we be afraid of doing it more? People already live longer, why be afraid of even longer? Developed nations are already struggling with unemployment. Why would prolific foreigners with tremendous cultural and religions strain they bring make things better?

What higher social good are unemployed Arab youth bringing to France???

Aging population is a red herring as we are already far ahead in extending natural lives, productive years, using mechanization and automation etc etc and nothing equates to needing more culturally un-assimilated, unemployed or otherwise maladjusted foreign youths.

Mate, by 2025 less then 5% of Germany pop will be under 25, the rate of people leaving the work force will be greater than those who join it and no matter how much robotics and automation will advance in the coming years, and it will just because of the fact of the aging pop world wide, you will still need skilled and unskilled workers to operate the machinery.

Unless you can convince German women to start having triplets for the next decade (or any other western women tbh) you are going to need to find a source of labour to keep your economy going.

Warder

Alex G

08-31-2010, 02:26 AM

I would agree on letting more qualified people in that already did get their job in Germany before flying in. There will be no problems with them. Letting lots of immigrants for low paid jobs? No, we have EU for that, we can take them from eastern Europe. But its true that we have problems with population in eastern Germany, its rapidly sinking.

Shurik SST

08-31-2010, 02:36 AM

Mackie

08-31-2010, 02:45 AM

Am I missing something? As far as I see Germany has an unemployment rate of about 8%. Why do they need more workers??? What about moving the retirement age up?

The lowest for years or decades.
In my region the unemployment is about 2% and companies are going crazy because there are not enough trainees or skilled workers.
The question is the structure of immigration. For sure not a wave from east Turkey.

Andromeda

08-31-2010, 02:48 AM

Meh....take everything with a grain of salt. Thilo is at the extreme end of a movement. What he mentions are basically stereotypical things but then what he fails to mention is that integration of turks esp, into the german culture will not happen over night. Two completely different cultures, values, customs etc...and its not like the german government helps out much in integration either. I mean were talking of a country that for example requires you to submit a photo of yourself for jobs, hence if your a turk or any minority and this guy or anyone like him is overlooking your app guess what will happen? He mentions problems people have, but very simple minded solutions that fail in real life. As if people are just going to drop everything that gives them an ethnic identity and just adopt another peoples. 1) they'll never be accepted 2) they'll reject their own being. As for more foreigners well........that's out of his control.

BLUE THOR

08-31-2010, 02:55 AM

I is a Foriegn... can I come?

BTW, Australia needs more foriegners too, but ones that actually fit in / are prepared to adapt to our way of life...

tluassa

08-31-2010, 03:11 AM

A 5% writeoff on the income tax per child , and Germany will rather have a finance than a population problem ... while at the same time the rich and well educated would be really pushed to have more children ... exactly the group that that has the lowest birthrate at the moment.

The biggest thing is that most female students today complain (more or less rightfully so) that having children will kill or seriously hurt their career chances, and these problems can also be solved by simple change of rules and money.

Ordie

08-31-2010, 03:14 AM

Am I missing something? As far as I see Germany has an unemployment rate of about 8%. Why do they need more workers??? What about moving the retirement age up?

Perhaps they need new taxpayers to subsidize the old folks.

Mackie

08-31-2010, 03:16 AM

BorisA

08-31-2010, 03:35 AM

Oh yes the society.
Is it surprisung after decades of welfare immigration supported by nationlistic Turkish groups? Getting a job was no reason to enter Germany.

Oh yes the immigrants.
The weakest link in the chain. Turks never ever worked in Germany. They did not and will not ever work. Neither (partly formerly) in coal mines, steel mills, construction, or production or services. How fast the Germans forget that especially the turkish peasants from SE-Turkey were treasured by their employers due to their authority-loving and diligent attitude! But instead of preparing them to enter the service-age they were left forsaken, well they were just Turks...who of them needed an education?

Gammelpreusse

08-31-2010, 03:45 AM

Oh yes the immigrants.
The weakest link in the chain. Turks never ever worked in Germany. They did not and will not ever work. Neither (partly formerly) in coal mines, steel mills, construction, or production or services. How fast the Germans forget that especially the turkish peasants from SE-Turkey were treasured by their employers due to their authority-loving and diligent attitude! But instead of preparing them to enter the service-age they were left forsaken, well they were just Turks...who of them needed an education?

+1

know a lot of turks doing their best to work hard like everybody else. this whole immigrants are lazy bullsh*t is as tiresome as the one in the 80ies of immigrants "stealing" work. I made even better expiriencese with chinese, polish and russian immigrants. Respect them like everybody else and they will return this respect, it's that simple, really.

BorisA

08-31-2010, 03:50 AM

This is not Germany-bashing. I just want to remind our buddy that the picture is not black and white. And neither do I say that the immigrants haven't any responsibility and commit errors.

BroCalFur01

08-31-2010, 03:54 AM

Always interesting to see the 'we need more immigrants' argument of a rapidly ageing population. We hear it all the time here in Norway as well. Apparently - because we get more and more old folks, we 'need' more somali immigrants to come here and sit on their bum chewing khat all day, living on benefits.

Interesting since all Skandi countries enjoy a relatively halthy birthrate of 1.7 to 1.9 children per woman. I also thought the muslim immigrants rate in Norway was very low (at least until recently less than 40.000).

Mate, by 2025 less then 5% of Germany pop will be under 25, the rate of people leaving the work force will be greater than those who join it

Are you in delirium or so? Are approx. 16-17 million people under 25 in 2025 less than 5% of the whole population?

Mackie

08-31-2010, 04:01 AM

Oh yes the immigrants.
The weakest link in the chain. Turks never ever worked in Germany. They did not and will not ever work. Neither (partly formerly) in coal mines, steel mills, construction, or production or services. How fast the Germans forget that especially the turkish peasants from SE-Turkey were treasured by their employers due to their authority-loving and diligent attitude! But instead of preparing them to enter the service-age they were left forsaken, well they were just Turks...who of them needed an education?

There is a difference between the "Gastarbeiter" and the later immigration. I know a lot of Turks who successfully work here.
And there is the fact that turks were not the only group of "Gastarbeiter" but much worse integrated than other groups.

BorisA

08-31-2010, 04:34 AM

There is a difference between the "Gastarbeiter" and the later immigration. I know a lot of Turks who successfully work here.
And there is the fact that turks were not the only group of "Gastarbeiter" but much worse integrated than other groups.

That's the problem. That people came in a time when they weren't needed (I am not talking about the families of the people already there). As for the other groups. Many returned (i.e. Italians, Spanish due to fewer jobs in Germany and economic upturn in their own countries which Turkey in that period lacked) to their own countries decimating the numbers in Germany. However still some had and have problems (i.e. the Italians with poor results in education matters).

The biggest obstacle for the integration of larger minorities (like the Turks) is the size of their community and the spatial segregation. And it is further complicated by more or less difficult paths to leave their sphere.

Gammelpreusse

08-31-2010, 04:59 AM

That's the problem. That people came in a time when they weren't needed (I am not talking about the families of the people already there). As for the other groups. Many returned (i.e. Italians, Spanish due to fewer jobs in Germany and economic upturn in their own countries which Turkey in that period lacked) to their own countries decimating the numbers in Germany. However still some had and have problems (i.e. the Italians with poor results in education matters).

The biggest obstacle for the integration of larger minorities (like the Turks) is the size of their community and the spatial segregation. And it is further complicated by more or less difficult paths to leave their sphere.

Don't forget those turkish and others folks which enjoyed good education, great grades in school in university.....and left for turkey because they did not find a job here for all kinds of reasons, not the least the preference for most germans to hire folks without a migration background. That IS a huge problem, as those are the people this country currently needs. In this the current debate runs into a wrong direction anyways.

Folks able and willing to take their chances require ppl who give them a chance in the first place.

muck

08-31-2010, 05:17 AM

.............................................Mr. Sarrazin yesterday: "You're free to think I'm an asshole. But if somebody tells you the earth is round, you're not going to reply the earth is flat just because he is an asshole."

Only 18 percent of the population are of foreign descent, we rapidly need to change that! :roll:

Immigration in Europe and the Americas isn't the same thing. Naturally, rich countries also attract the poor in search of look and fortune but Europe almost exclusively attracts the poor and uneducated. This is a very big issue always forgotten when so called experts brood about skilled labour shortages. Moreover, we have no understanding of ourselves as an immigration country so the immigrants won't feel and act as if they were a new member of the society either. The results are social islands the oceans between of which are getting deeper and deeper.
It's pointless to condemn Mr. Sarrazin for what he wrote. It's so utterly pointless because he only commented on the stats the very same members of government are working with who call him a racist now.
And these stats say: the average Muslim immigrant in Germany is neither willing nor capable of integration, lives on public expenses and is ****e to crime.
Why should it be racist to wonder about the reasons of this? You can't take on social tensions if somebody yells racism! every time you do.

Moreover, this country still has lots of skilled labour to offer to its own economy. Is it nationalistic or racist if these people are given jobs before the government campaigns for a new wave of immigration?

Perhaps they need new taxpayers to subsidize the old folks.As a matter of fact, the old folks subsidize the immigrants many of which don't contribute to the financial good of the society.

BafuD

08-31-2010, 05:25 AM

Same song here, "We need more workers, population is getting old blaablaa", buuut at the same time we got 300 000 jobless, and people hired all the way from Turkey to do the same jobs as finns. O_O

muck

08-31-2010, 05:40 AM

I know a 49-years old bloke who used to work as an engineer for a company that went broke in 2008. Regardless of terrific work records he has been unemployed ever since - "too old" he was told every time he would apply for a vacant position somewhere. The government is doing nothing to address this issue. But they can invite somebody a twenty years younger from somewhere around the world and offhandedly make a random employer hiring him. This is nuts.

Yes this society is ageing but on the other hand, life expectancy has risen to levels where we could easily exploit the skills and ressourcefulness of the older generations without any losses to the society. This is only an issue because we're unable to deal with it, not because it can't be dealt with. Every fourth children born this year will live a hundred years - but a 49-years old enginner is "too old"? We need a general rethinking of our social concepts and not headless immigration campaigns with the existing problems of immigrations still unsolved.

JCR

08-31-2010, 06:13 AM

The article fails to see something:
Yes, the great elector let in the huguenots (Sarrazin, for example :D), Frederick the great the dutch and Catherine the great the germans.
But frederick didn't get himself tyrolean peasants who were religious and produced many children, he took dutch.
Catherine didn't take Caucasians or turks or whatever.
They all let in foreigners that advanced the country.

tea drinker

08-31-2010, 08:28 AM

The real headline should be "Germany needs more children", and not foreigners. Idiot journalists.
True.
It also implies that Germans are an unsustainable race that constantly need new blood. So at some point in the future there will be no Germans in Germany.
Can you say RACIST!

hsh2

08-31-2010, 11:01 AM

In any case, the biggest threat to humankind is overpopulation.

x2

Have you seen what Isaac Asimov wrote about overpopulation?

The real headline should be "Germany needs more children", and not foreigners. Idiot journalists.

Absolutely agree but they are not idiots who "just don't get it". They know full well what they are doing.

Always interesting to see the 'we need more immigrants' argument of a rapidly ageing population. We hear it all the time here in Norway as well. Apparently - because we get more and more old folks, we 'need' more somali immigrants to come here and sit on their bum chewing khat all day, living on benefits.

Let's just assume that Norway and other European countries needed immigrants. Where is it written that by definition immigrants= third worlder? Why not take in other Europeans?

Who has a higher level of education, the average Eastern/Southern European or a Third Worlder?

Who has a culture and mindset more similar to Norway/Norwegians, the average Eastern/Southern European or a Third Worlder?

Who is closer to home going from Norway (either to visit his family or go back once his contract expires); the average Eastern/Southern European or a Third Worlder?

etc

The whole things makes zero sense. It does however make alot of sense if you assume that on one hand, the authorities aren't ruthless enough to say GTFO! and follow through on diplomatic etc areas (like our good friend Ruth Metzler) and OTOH many people still have the 68er mindset and worldview.

Perhaps Norway should stop being a welfare state.

Perhaps you should learn to distinguish between cause and effect…

0rphie

08-31-2010, 11:15 AM

I actually lived and worked in Munich 1995-1997 and was counting days till my contract ends. Most of Germans are are very hateful to foreigners. My personal experience. Whatever Germans say that they are not nationalists is BS.With such attitude Germany can forget getting highly skilled workers. Germany will only get middle-eastern dissent people who will come for generous benefits

GottLuft

08-31-2010, 11:20 AM

Dennis nist

08-31-2010, 12:11 PM

"Needs" might be a tad too much. If Europe needs anything it is not more, or less immigrants, but a smarter immigration policy.
Immigration will always be here and people that are from poorer countries will always move to richer countries.

The anger I see today in terms of immigration in the western world is interesting. The thing that I have noticed is that the nationstate slowly seems to go away. Or atleast become weaker. Really think about it. 50 years ago you had to be a swede. There just wasn't anything else to associate with. Today, if i'm honest with myself I probably place people with the same taste in music before people that have been born in the same geographic area. And why shouldn't I? 50 years ago I probably never even heard of that indieband from botswana, even less talked to them online. Now with the internet, I can. Why should I care more about some schmuck swede that doesn't even like the same music as I, than the cool botswanian band? 50 years ago I only knew about that schmuck and I had to associate with him to get that sense of belonging, today I can choose who I associate with much easier.

Breerman

08-31-2010, 01:06 PM

^
Move to Botswana then, there's no place for you here.

Same argument is used here in regards to the "need" for immigration though you just have to check fundamental figures to see that it's a myth. There is a 30% workforce reserve.

Victor1

08-31-2010, 01:07 PM

Well then, "import" brazillians from the southern regions of the country, they're already descendants to the first germans who immigrated here so they're used to the culture.

Ordie

08-31-2010, 01:09 PM

Here's an idea.

Perhaps Germany should set up retirement homes in nations with good weather, beaches, and plenty of cheap labor.
This way they are taken care of, enjoy the sun, mitigate immigration, and 'right-size' the demographic balance in Germany.

Alex G

08-31-2010, 01:17 PM

Astaran

08-31-2010, 01:18 PM

Ordie

08-31-2010, 01:19 PM

Well then, "import" brazillians from the southern regions of the country, they're already descendants to the first germans who immigrated here so they're used to the culture.

It doesn't work.

Japan onced allowed Brazilians of Japanese desent to immigrate with the assumption they are aculturated Japanese. They were in shock when they spoke Portugese, greeted each other with hugs and kisses, celebrated Carnival with Samba music, and didn't take crap from anyone. Ironically, they are now they are being deported back to Brazil with acculturated Japanese born kids who never been to Brazil.

Opportunity lost.

Snapdad

08-31-2010, 02:36 PM

It doesn't work.

Japan onced allowed Brazilians of Japanese desent to immigrate with the assumption they are aculturated Japanese. They were in shock when they spoke Portugese, greeted each other with hugs and kisses, celebrated Carnival with Samba music, and didn't take crap from anyone. Ironically, they are now they are being deported back to Brazil with acculturated Japanese born kids who never been to Brazil.

Opportunity lost. They are mass deporting them because they didnt assimilate properly? Do you happen to have a source for this interesting story?

hsh2

08-31-2010, 02:49 PM

Why should I care more about some schmuck swede that doesn't even like the same music as I, than the cool botswanian band?

Yeah good question:roll:... Maybe because they are your countrymen, maybe because they will be paying social help should you need it, maybe because you share national interests, maybe because should push come to shove they and only they will be there for you etc.

Why would you care about people X when you could just as well genuinely care about the people who sit in the same boat as you do, people who are your kinsmen and a boat which you co own I might add? Not "cool" enough? Not enough of a fashion statement? Not avantgarde enough? Not enough of a self pat on the back?

Snapdad: great avatar! One of my all time favorite movies.

Ordie

08-31-2010, 02:56 PM

They are mass deporting them because they didnt assimilate properly? Do you happen to have a source for this interesting story?

Its the economy and the job losses in the auto industry. They are getting cash if they deport themselves.

It an opportunity lost because these workers can backfill service jobs needed to tend for Japanese old folk.

Assimilation issue is a big deal within this community. Japanese-Brazilian kids born, raised and educated in Japan have difficuilty in communicating with thier parents who predominantly speak Portuguese.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/02/japan-brazilians-deport-markets-economy-autos.html

Kitsune

08-31-2010, 03:16 PM

Rapidly aging? I hate how that is used as an argument. It is a non-issue. Germany has what, 80 mil people? Is that not enough for all that Germany needs? Would Germany cease to exist if it had 75 million in 20 years?

In any case, the biggest threat to humankind is overpopulation.

No, it is not a non-issue. You see, a population is maintained if every man and every woman get two children (on average) that can replace them. If for the duration of one generation every couple gets only one child, the next generation will effectively be halfed and with it the number of woman who could get children. So the drop is not remedied if after 25 years or so the number of children rises again to two per woman - it would indeed need a rate of four children per average woman, kept up for one full generation, to "repair the damage".

In Germany's case the number of children per woman is between 1,3 to 1,4 - way too low unfortunately. This so since the early seventies, for 40 years continously. By now, the number of young women has effectively reduced so much that forty years of something like 2,8 children per woman would be necessary to return to the status quo (fat chance). As it is, we are on the way to become a nation of forty million people my friend. (This will indeed take some time since at present people are reaching higher and higher lifespans which means that the real population drop will begin only in a few decades...but as it looks this is almost unavoidable today).

And that assumes that our women return to getting around two children on average and that very soon. If the present procreation rates persist throughout the century, Germany might have less than 20 million inhabitants in 2200 - and would continue to shrink of course. It's the slow death of a nation. As it is, one can already state that both worldwars had far less impact on the population than the pill. The only ways out of this are either a swift return to much, much more children or a dramatic improvement in medical and biological technology, resulting in an incredible rise in life expectancy and the eventual discovery of the fountain of youth. Preferably before the end of this century. If you wanted to cure the problem through immigration, the number of immigrants would be simply enormous - something around half a million every year at least.

It's true that the topic is complicated and much much more needs to be said and specified. In any case it is by no means a non-issue. It seems to be so, because the topic is still largely ignored. But very soon it will be a big issue, trust me. Especially if you are young, since you and your children (if you have any) are already pretty much condemned to live your lives in a nation of old farts under the rule of old farts.

Mr.K

08-31-2010, 03:19 PM

Dennis nist

08-31-2010, 03:36 PM

Yeah good question:roll:... Maybe because they are your countrymen, maybe because they will be paying social help should you need it, maybe because you share national interests, maybe because should push come to shove they and only they will be there for you etc.

Why would you care about people X when you could just as well genuinely care about the people who sit in the same boat as you do, people who are your kinsmen and a boat which you co own I might add? Not "cool" enough? Not enough of a fashion statement? Not avantgarde enough? Not enough of a self pat on the back?

Look I don't want to come of as a douche but things change. Historically people felt a national connection because thats the only thing that they knew about. It was just such a enourmous investment to move somwhere else that most couldn't. Today, the greatest hindrance for moving overseas is paperwork. So you can see the writing on the wall on that one. People will just vote for people that removes such hindrances, because it's in their way.

Another thing:
Havent you seen a growing global trend where the politics in most countries have ecome more and more uniform. Why do you think that a socialdemocratic government voted to privatize a lot of things in sweden? Alot of people are becoming more and more disilusioned with their countrys politicians. They feel more and more powerless. And that really is the truth to. What politicians do today are less about what the people want and more about how to keep the country competetive amongst other countries. Most countries will more and more be run as corporations. In such a world what kind of connection can I have to the state?

Another thing, the word you are trying to label me with is post modern. And i'm not trying to be that. I'm the product of my generation, but that's all.

/OT rant

Anyway, my point still stands, immigration will always, and have always existed. And people that don't realize that, don't know THEIR peoples history. Doesn't mean we should have any kind of immigration policy. Smart policies should be implemented.

Snapdad

08-31-2010, 03:43 PM

Sweden has had success with it's generous maternity/ paternity leave policies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/world/europe/10iht-sweden.html

tluassa

08-31-2010, 04:11 PM

PS:

From todays Spiegel article:

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-125930-galleryV9-wwhw.jpg

from top to bottom: (pink is East German opinion, grey is West German opinion - no Idea why they even differenciate between the two anymore)

1. Germany should take more foreigners because of the miserable state of the World

2. foreigners contribute to our wealth through their work

3. foreigners enrich our life

4. foreigners take advantage of our social system and life on our costs

5. there are too many foreigners living in Germany, their number should sink

6. foreigners make many social problems worse

7. foreigners should adopt more to local customs

Hyde

08-31-2010, 04:14 PM

No, this will only encourage the poor having children (and those fine people that come from countries that breed like crazy), and stucking even more out of the social security system.

No, for that they would first need to have an income, which most "poor" people or these breeding immigrants don't have. Right now they live of welfare because it just doesn't pay off to work, they get more on welfare than they would in a job.

afreu

08-31-2010, 04:20 PM

No, for that they would first need to have an income, which most "poor" people or these breeding immigrants don't have. Right now they live of welfare because it just doesn't pay off to work, they get more on welfare than they would in a job.

Which is why Germany needs higher wages.

Alex G

08-31-2010, 04:20 PM

PS:

From todays Spiegel article:

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-125930-galleryV9-wwhw.jpg

Funny thing as the most immigrants are living in west, not in east parts of Germany. For some reason eastern part has more against immigrants while not actually having them.

Victor1

08-31-2010, 05:24 PM

They are mass deporting them because they didnt assimilate properly? Do you happen to have a source for this interesting story?

I've heard that too.

hsh2

08-31-2010, 05:49 PM

Look I don't want to come of as a douche but things change. Historically people felt a national connection because thats the only thing that they knew about. It was just such a enourmous investment to move somwhere else that most couldn't. Today, the greatest hindrance for moving overseas is paperwork. So you can see the writing on the wall on that one. People will just vote for people that removes such hindrances, because it's in their way.

Another thing:
Havent you seen a growing global trend where the politics in most countries have ecome more and more uniform. Why do you think that a socialdemocratic government voted to privatize a lot of things in sweden? Alot of people are becoming more and more disilusioned with their countrys politicians. They feel more and more powerless. And that really is the truth to. What politicians do today are less about what the people want and more about how to keep the country competetive amongst other countries. Most countries will more and more be run as corporations. In such a world what kind of connection can I have to the state?

Another thing, the word you are trying to label me with is post modern. And i'm not trying to be that. I'm the product of my generation, but that's all.

/OT rant

Anyway, my point still stands, immigration will always, and have always existed. And people that don't realize that, don't know THEIR peoples history. Doesn't mean we should have any kind of immigration policy. Smart policies should be implemented.

And therefore you care more for the cool botswanian band than some schmuck Swede. Fantastic!

Sashko

08-31-2010, 06:06 PM

Mate, by 2025 less then 5% of Germany pop will be under 25, the rate of people leaving the work force will be greater than those who join it and no matter how much robotics and automation will advance in the coming years, and it will just because of the fact of the aging pop world wide, you will still need skilled and unskilled workers to operate the machinery.

Unless you can convince German women to start having triplets for the next decade (or any other western women tbh) you are going to need to find a source of labour to keep your economy going.

Warder

Not very hard to do, if there is political will. Instead of giving the money to refugees that will contribute to nothing but crime statistics, provide financial incentives for young families to have children. From readily avaliable government subsidized kindergardens (HUGE problem here, even if you got money to pay for private ones) to cold hard cash being paid per child until child reaches certain age. To raise a child to the age of 18 in a comfortable middle class environment costs around $400.000-500.000, and this high cost and lack of time are the main reasons why people are down to 1.5 children per family.

1 Refugee costs the taxpayer over $1000/month just in welfare payments, so why not give that $1000 to a young family instead? Of course politicians cannot see further than their next election so any sort of long term population planning will be labeled as "racist and unfair".

Sashko

08-31-2010, 06:12 PM

No, this will only encourage the poor having children (and those fine people that come from countries that breed like crazy), and stucking even more out of the social security system.

Qualify only working parents (or family units where at least 1 parent works and is capable of providing sufficient income). Qualify only full fledged citizens.

Welfare cases should be penalized for having children, up to a point where children are taken away by the state. No extra subsidy for having extra children.

Ideally, ethnicity and place of origin should be looked at as well, however that will be labeled "racist" for sure.

afreu

08-31-2010, 07:01 PM

Qualify only working parents (or family units where at least 1 parent works and is capable of providing sufficient income). Qualify only full fledged citizens.

Welfare cases should be penalized for having children, up to a point where children are taken away by the state. No extra subsidy for having extra children.

Ideally, ethnicity and place of origin should be looked at as well, however that will be labeled "racist" for sure.

Which would be quite an accurate label.

Following your train of thought, why not test the intelligence of potential parents as well. How about fitness, cultural habits and other personal preferences. All things which to some degree have an influence on the positive development of a child. While we are it, the state can identify those parents unfit to produce the perfect child and sterilize the male. Thereby preventing the poor and the dumb procreate at all.

Instead of giving the money to refugees that will contribute to nothing but crime statistics, provide financial incentives for young families to have children.

Although immigrants have twice the unemployment rate (20%) of the German population, there are nonetheless 80% of them working and paying taxes. Turkish immigrants alone own about 69.000 businesses. One reason an unproportional amount of immigrants receive state benefits is that foreign degrees are often not recognized in Germany. About 500.000 immigrants are affected by that.

loganinkosovo

08-31-2010, 08:21 PM

Why does this issue only affects countries that have limited immigration and low birth rates?

They don't share an all but unprotected border with Mexico.

loganinkosovo

08-31-2010, 08:22 PM

Auslander Raus!

You ran all us Americans out and now you're crying?

Tough.

Enjoy Berlinistan, Baby!

:)

dttk0009

08-31-2010, 08:25 PM

^Obvious flamebait.

knoerz

09-01-2010, 03:53 AM

http://www.abload.de/img/wahlplakatspd20132fzll.jpg

p-)

toki

09-01-2010, 04:35 AM

Germany is very small country in global territorial meaning without natural resources such as ore,oil,gas whatever.On territory of only 360 000km2 live about 83 million people and Germany still need more foreigners ? hmm well if this continues I think Germany will look like wc in disco in saturday evening...

Germany is ageing, don't you get that part of the equation? Germany definitely needs a big boost of a younger population. To maintain the wealth we need a higher percentage of younger people, and even better well educated younger people. That is a serious problem.

On the one hand you can tell German girls to breed like crazy or you can import a well educated young workforce. A combination of both would be perfect. Since we cannot wait so long.

Anyone who can look through the populism of either side knows the truth. My city is one of the wealthiest in Germany and we created our own little immigration of intelligentia and companies from China and Japan. They do pay taxes here and on the local scale make us a rich place. Mercer says, we have the highest quality of living in Germany. Looking around we also attract workforce from all over the world.

True.
It also implies that Germans are an unsustainable race that constantly need new blood. So at some point in the future there will be no Germans in Germany.
Can you say RACIST!
No, race is no part of the equation. Germans are no race anyway. In Germany the word isn't even used in that context. YOU imply an "unsustainable race" which is BS from wherever you look at it. We're talking about economics here, education and workforce. Not "race".

In my opinion the school system and weeding out at the age of 11 is a big problem in the big picture. Much bigger than anyone thinks it is. The school system needs to change. Most of our immigranst are legal and are living here in third generation. Anyone who knows about the school system knows that they have a harder time in primary school and are weeded out after 4th grade into the third tier of our 3-4 tier system. Same goes for German kids who have little support at home. In no western country the correlation between your parents basic education and your personal basic education is higher than in Germany.

We need more social mobility, which would also help integration. America is pretty good in this aspect.

We need to "activate" the third generation immigrants. Our school system is not very good in that aspect.

GottLuft

09-01-2010, 08:42 AM

Germany is ageing, don't you get that part of the equation? Germany definitely needs a big boost of a younger population. To maintain the wealth we need a higher percentage of younger people, and even better well educated younger people. That is a serious problem.

On the one hand you can tell German girls to breed like crazy or you can import a well educated young workforce. A combination of both would be perfect. Since we cannot wait so long.

Anyone who can look through the populism of either side knows the truth. My city is one of the wealthiest in Germany and we created our own little immigration of intelligentia and companies from China and Japan. They do pay taxes here and on the local scale make us a rich place. Mercer says, we have the highest quality of living in Germany. Looking around we also attract workforce from all over the world.

Well I don't believe that birth rate among the Germans will increase in future.Especially because capitalism changed mentality of people and not only in German but in almost whole Europe expect south European countries like Kosovo or Albania.Women today care only about good job,good salary,rich husband and enjoying in life.Sadly but that's true and none who lives in Europe can't say that I'm wrong because it's the same situation in Croatia.The last thing European women think about today are kids and I don't believe it will change.In Germany only immigrants especially muslims will increase natality in Germany ,the same opinion I have for all other rich countries in Europe like Sweden,France etc.The birthrate among Europeans will fall and fall ,in the same time birthrate among immigrants especially from the east and africa will grow and grow every year.So what to say...probably one day we will have 60% muslim and black Germany and every place will be full of mosque but there is one good thing about that story,Germany will never have problems with birthrate although Germans like we see today will not exist in Germany anymore and the complete blood group will be changed .There will not be guys like "Heinrich Schmeiser" but "Abdulah Erdogan" or something like that ;)
Butttt what to say.....that's probably just evolution and we can't do anything about that,that's the future of Europe unfortunately.Stronger survive,if Europeans aren't interesting to make new beautiful European kids,someone else will be ;).And that's the concept of whole universe...for 1000 years who knows who will live in Europe again.

True.
It also implies that Germans are an unsustainable race that constantly need new blood. So at some point in the future there will be no Germans in Germany.
Can you say RACIST!

Agree with you Tea mate.Don't worry it's not racism actually I wrote about the same thing above.So even if some people call the way how I speak racism I don't care about that.They can accept it however they wan't,but that's just realism and the truth and future will show us that Gottluft had right.
I wish that there is more European nations like Albanians in Europe who care about kids nd the future of own race,country and people.Probably Germans and many other European nations can learn something from them when we speak about "new kids".They maybe aren't rich,they're poor Europeans right,but they will save their culture and nation.So choose what's better ? to live poor and have your own nation,your history,your culture or earn about 5000 $ per month and work like idiot ,but lose your culture,your nation,your blood,your history ? I think it's not about the money, I would choose first option rather!

Alex G

09-01-2010, 08:46 AM

In my opinion the school system and weeding out at the age of 11 is a big problem in the big picture. Much bigger than anyone thinks it is. The school system needs to change. Most of our immigranst are legal and are living here in third generation. Anyone who knows about the school system knows that they have a harder time in primary school and are weeded out after 4th grade into the third tier of our 3-4 tier system. Same goes for German kids who have little support at home. In no western country the correlation between your parents basic education and your personal basic education is higher than in Germany.

We need more social mobility, which would also help integration. America is pretty good in this aspect.

We need to "activate" the third generation immigrants. Our school system is not very good in that aspect.

Very true. Our school system is... not the best. I can say it from personal experience. Hauptschule doesnt help weak kids. It make them become dumb and lazy. It make you loose all interest in learning that you could have had before going to it. And it certainly doenst help your behavior, it drags you down.

And not accepting degrees of other countries is big problem as well - my father has degree in aviation engineering that isnt being recognized here.

merk666

09-01-2010, 09:51 AM

if germans dont want to make kids, they must make robots. Else after 50 years they will have 60% of aged immigrants, instead of 60% aged Germans today.

Mr.K

09-01-2010, 09:55 AM

"Europe needs more immigrants" often translates to " Left-wing parties want a bigger electoral base". :)

No, for that they would first need to have an income, which most "poor" people or these breeding immigrants don't have. Right now they live of welfare because it just doesn't pay off to work, they get more on welfare than they would in a job.

The idea itself is not bad, but you will have harsh criticism like '"Government X is not helping the poor, or contributing to integration, Govertment X is racist and subsidizing the "RICH".

gazell

09-01-2010, 10:29 AM

Well I don't believe that birth rate among the Germans will increase in future.Especially because capitalism changed mentality of people and not only in German but in almost whole Europe expect south European countries like Kosovo or Albania.Women today care only about good job,good salary,rich husband and enjoying in life.Sadly but that's true and none who lives in Europe can't say that I'm wrong because it's the same situation in Croatia.The last thing European women think about today are kids and I don't believe it will change.In Germany only immigrants especially muslims will increase natality in Germany ,the same opinion I have for all other rich countries in Europe like Sweden,France etc.The birthrate among Europeans will fall and fall ,in the same time birthrate among immigrants especially from the east and africa will grow and grow every year.So what to say...probably one day we will have 60% muslim and black Germany and every place will be full of mosque but there is one good thing about that story,Germany will never have problems with birthrate although Germans like we see today will not exist in Germany anymore and the complete blood group will be changed .There will not be guys like "Heinrich Schmeiser" but "Abdulah Erdogan" or something like that ;)
Butttt what to say.....that's probably just evolutionand we can't do anything about that,that's the future of Europe unfortunately.Stronger survive,if Europeans aren't interesting to make new beautiful European kids,someone else will be ;).And that's the concept of whole universe...for 1000 years who knows who will live in Europe again.

You are wrong.

Women with tertiary education, commonly with a good pay and job, run a large family in a number of countries, just like those without much or any education on very low incomes. The problem often is in the middle. Also, in one parent families - most live births in Europe are in those nowadays - for obvious, not just or not at all for financial reasons. The smaller family units have a multiplying downturn effect too, in the long run as parenting is one of the hardest jobs you face. Without friends and family help, the wills and energy easily expire.

The birthrate of immigrants very fast adjusts to that of the majority population, quite commonly. Hence, immigration needs to be repeated to tears on end. A good family policy is needed in any case.

Here, a showcase of how liberal, leftish policies dismantle the very bounding of society, the family, etc.:lol:

Alex G

09-01-2010, 04:38 PM

Sarrazin is making joke out himself right now by hartaberfair.

Hyde

09-01-2010, 04:42 PM

In my opinion the school system and weeding out at the age of 11 is a big problem in the big picture. Much bigger than anyone thinks it is. The school system needs to change. Most of our immigranst are legal and are living here in third generation. Anyone who knows about the school system knows that they have a harder time in primary school and are weeded out after 4th grade into the third tier of our 3-4 tier system. Same goes for German kids who have little support at home. In no western country the correlation between your parents basic education and your personal basic education is higher than in Germany.

x2000

That's imho the worst thing about Germany and its worst problem which leads to many other problems, and yet noone gets it and the politicians even almost 10 years after the Pisa study and after they "understood" that Germanys school system needs to change, haven't done anything. That's why my children will not go to school in Germany if the school system doesn't change, I'd rather move to France or any other EU country or even Canada for the good of my children, I will also not reward such a state for that kind of behaviour by giving it my children and my and their income..

Tyon

09-01-2010, 04:49 PM

Sarrazin is making joke out himself right now by hartaberfair.

Oh god he's so stupid.
I guess he wasnt abducted by the ARD without further notice. So he actually had the time to get him some sources for his claims. Like his claim(even though he is too stupid to explain himself) that jews share some common chromosomes with each other like no one else. That doesnt make them good or bad, its just the way it is.
If he just keeps talking about genes most people will not be able to understand him.

And how will all the turkish people be able to like Friedmann while they use to hate him?

Also it was funny to see some turkish people here in germany who speak about 4 german words and are for the german language as the language of germany.
Ah the irony....

Hildemel

09-01-2010, 04:53 PM

Germany Needs More Foreigners

F*** that! We have enough problems in that country with certain groups (Turks). We need to stabilize the population and change the education system and some other things to make all our successful students not flee the country at the earliest opertunity.

gazell

09-01-2010, 04:54 PM

x2000

That's imho the worst thing about Germany and its worst problem which leads to many other problems, and yet noone gets it and the politicians even almost 10 years after the Pisa study and after they "understood" that Germanys school system needs to change, haven't done anything. That's why my children will not go to school in Germany if the school system doesn't change, I'd rather move to France or any other EU country or even Canada for the good of my children, I will also not reward such a state for that kind of behaviour.

What's wrong with it guys? For many decades, AFAIK, it provided scientists to the world. The best.p-)

Yah, not that well providing for nuts? Do they want it to?

Stormz_STA

09-01-2010, 04:55 PM

F*** that! We have enough problems in that country with certain groups (Turks). We need to stabilize the population and change the education system and some other things to make all our successful students not flee the country at the earliest opertunity.

says an immigrant

;)

Tyon

09-01-2010, 04:57 PM

Ah how i love that moderator.
At the end of the show he gets out the Nazikeule. Wonderful!

Hildemel

09-01-2010, 05:01 PM

says an immigrant

;)

Hey, theres a reason my mother had us move. Though I am considering moving back to Germany. Problems don't get solved if people just run from them.

Stormz_STA

09-01-2010, 05:02 PM

Though I am considering moving back to Germany.

Germany doesn't need more Germans.

Hildemel

09-01-2010, 05:07 PM

Germany doesn't need more Germans.

It doesn't need immigrants either, but it keeps letting them in.

Stormz_STA

09-01-2010, 05:09 PM

It doesn't need immigrants either.

It sure does need more Canadians.

Alex G

09-01-2010, 05:09 PM

Sarrazin and his statistics... Damn, where did rest of our 240 mil. Germans stay?

Hildemel

09-01-2010, 05:13 PM

It sure does need more Canadians.
Germans love Canadians for some reason.

where did rest of our 240 mil. Germans stay?
Argentina and Brazil?

Alex G

09-01-2010, 05:15 PM

It doesn't need immigrants either, but it keeps letting them in.

58% of immigrants are from EU states. Cant stop them anyway.

zad

09-01-2010, 05:19 PM

On the one hand you can tell German girls to breed like crazy or you can import a well educated young workforce. A combination of both would be perfect. Since we cannot wait so long.

Don´t worry toki, I am getting my first degree in computer science in december and a second degree in july, I am starting german lessons in october. By august I can be in your country breeding with your teutonic ladies like there is not tomorrow. p-)

Hildemel

09-01-2010, 05:19 PM

58% of immigrants are from EU states. Cant stop them anyway.

I am fine with people from EU states. They at least have a similar culture and usually don't expect special treatment. There are Dutch people that live in Germany but cross the border every day to bring their kids to school and go to work in their own country.
That is kinda awesome.

Stormz_STA

09-01-2010, 05:20 PM

Germans love Canadians for some reason.

Impossible!

HK in AK

09-01-2010, 05:21 PM

Let's ship them all the illegals that cross the border.

zad

09-01-2010, 05:22 PM

And not accepting degrees of other countries is big problem as well - my father has degree in aviation engineering that isnt being recognized here.

With Bologna Process EU members will recognize universite degrees from other members.

Hyde

09-01-2010, 05:31 PM

What's wrong with it guys? For many decades, AFAIK, it provided scientists to the world. The best.p-)

Yah, not that well providing for nuts? Do they want it to?

Don't be ridiculous, that is a serious manner. There are school systems which provide just as good or even better scientists and don't screw over all the others who don't make it to a university degree in the process.

Alex G

09-01-2010, 05:36 PM

With Bologna Process EU members will recognize universite degrees from other members.

It still would work only for 47 countries. What is with rest of the world?

Gunbird

09-01-2010, 06:28 PM

Germany has no one to blame but themselves. It's no one elses fault they aren't making enough babies.

Fuschimuschi

09-01-2010, 06:34 PM

We need more Asians!

Seriously, all Asian immigrants I know really care about education and their kids seem
pretty well integrated.

Maitreya

09-01-2010, 06:38 PM

Hopefully they don't follow Canada's example. where anyone with $25k CDN, was able to file for Immigration.....

zad

09-01-2010, 07:49 PM

It still would work only for 47 countries. What is with rest of the world?
That is a good question, I have a spanish friend born in Buenos Aires with an argentinian degree in teaching that is not valid in Spain, here she works as waitres. At the same time, will you trust a degree from lets say Zimbabwe?

dttk0009

09-01-2010, 11:59 PM

We need more Asians!

Seriously, all Asian immigrants I know really care about education and their kids seem
pretty well integrated.
I actually notice the opposite effect, especially amongst south Asians (India mostly), where they will stay amongst themselves, not integrate and keep business in the family or community, which is typically quite large. At least here in Bangkok it's that way. I notice much easier integration amongst Chinese and Korean immigrants. As far as business and sociability goes, it seems that the Chinese and Koreans are most outgoing, but that could just be the Thai-Chinese and Thai-Indian sub-cultures I'm basing my opinion on. Not sure about how it works over in Germany.

I know a Vietnamese kid when I lived in Germany back in Gymnasium. He was born there though, so he was acted German as the next guy. Certainly no integration issues there. In fact, I had a harder time adapting to life there since I had spent the majority of my youth in Asia.

NorthernFury

09-02-2010, 03:40 AM

Germans are obsolete. It's time to phase them out and replace them with the "New Germans".
Who cares?... Your ancestors were evil anyway...

Look at this beauty, strength and social cohesion of the Estonian people!
They have not been destroyed and broken like we have yet.

Of course, the band from Botswana is probably better, Denis nist.

We can choose this as our future, or "Multiculturalism" and the pleasure to be "assimilated".

http://www.youtube.com/v/R-fsTAnmNIY

shadowsrider

09-02-2010, 04:05 AM

We need more Asians!

Seriously, all Asian immigrants I know really care about education and their kids seem
pretty well integrated.

I've been observing Asian immigration in Warsaw since a years and they are the best immigrants you can dream of. In PL they are coming mainly from Vietnam. They are working hard, they do not make troubles and running lots of useful businesses.
Also such sort of immigration does not trouble local population - attitute towards Asians is neutral.

toki

09-02-2010, 07:34 AM

The birthrate among Europeans will fall and fall ,in the same time birthrate among immigrants especially from the east and africa will grow and grow every year.

Here's your mistake. The birthrate of immigrants adapts, because they're exposed to the same economic factors. Especially among the Turks having no more than 2 children became normal. Which was different in the 60's and 70's.
You guys always forget that. The economic need for big families was there in Anatolia in the 50's and 60's, now it is expensive to have more kids.

Germans are obsolete. It's time to phase them out and replace them with the "New Germans".
Who cares?... Your ancestors were evil anyway...
Go, wherever you want, but don't ask for our euros or complain about your non existing wealth.

AvdH

09-02-2010, 07:42 AM

Here's your mistake. The birthrate of immigrants adapts, because they're exposed to the same economic factors. Especially among the Turks having no more than 2 children became normal. Which was different in the 60's and 70's.
You guys always forget that. The economic need for big families was there in Anatolia in the 50's and 60's, now it is expensive to have more kids.

Oh gosh! Are the Turks (and Arabs and Afghans and ...) going to become extinct now, too? I always had the impression that the part of immigrants and their descendants became more and more over the last years.

toki

09-02-2010, 07:43 AM

Oh gosh! Are the Turks going to become extinct now, too? I always had the impression that the part of immigrants and their descendants became more and more over the last years.
Do you live in Germany? Wonder where all those "insiders" in this thread come from.
But i get it, a short factual post is hard to counter, isn't it.

AvdH

09-02-2010, 07:45 AM

Do you live in Germany?
Indeed! And my wife is teaching immigrants German. A pity that you can't talk to her. The stories I heard are most disturbing (and she even isn't German herself).

toki

09-02-2010, 07:49 AM

Indeed! And my wife is teaching immigrants German. A pity that you can't talk to her. The stories I heard are most disturbing (and she even isn't German herself).
And what has this to do with the post you originally quoted, other than a rant about "Turks getting instinct"? It was simply a fact and you don't like it.

HellToupee

09-02-2010, 07:59 AM

I've been observing Asian immigration in Warsaw since a years and they are the best immigrants you can dream of. In PL they are coming mainly from Vietnam. They are working hard, they do not make troubles and running lots of useful businesses.
Also such sort of immigration does not trouble local population - attitute towards Asians is neutral.

Its more about numbers of immigrations than their ability to integrate or whatever, Asians are the largest immigration group to NZ so its the Asians don't integrate Asians are taking over crap from people like Northernfury dreaming of a land of cohesive blond hair blue eyed borg. If its not for the Muslims asians what ever it will be the Irish, or poles etc.

Spiritbreaker

09-02-2010, 08:03 AM

90% of my family lives in Austria,Germany or Switzerland...Funny thing is those in Austria and Germany complain about Turks and African imigrants...

AvdH

09-02-2010, 08:03 AM

And what has this to do with the post you originally quoted, other than a rant about "Turks getting instinct"? It was simply a fact and you don't like it.
1. I don't deny that the birth rate is decreasing. But I deny that it's as low as the German (average).
2. Raising children in a Turkish family is much more easier, because often the Grandparants and other relatives live in the same house or nearby.
3. Germany doesn't need immigrants. That's pure BS. We need enough children and we need qualified workers. That's all.
4. What we don't need are low educated people that just cost us money or commit crimes. I don't speak of immigrants in particular but in general terms.

zad

09-02-2010, 08:08 AM

2. Raising children in a Turkish family is much more easier, because often the Grandparants and other relatives live in the same house or nearby.

So there is not a such thing like family in Germany? must be a mediterranian thing... :cantbeli:

BafuD

09-02-2010, 08:18 AM

Doesn't matter what people think, but its a fact that africans and muslims are the ones usually who do not integrate, we can see the results all over europe.

My area got alot of immigrants, but only the muslims and africans are the ****heads who dont integrate.

Indiana Jones

09-02-2010, 08:19 AM

So there is not a such thing like family in Germany? must be a mediterranian thing... :cantbeli:
He is quite right insofar as average size of households if significantly higher in families of ie. Turkic or Arabic origin.

Anyways, when it comes to the contemporary German debate on the matter, it does not revolve so much around immigration per se, but rather about how it should be managed.
The fact of the matter is that the mere notion of controlling immigrantion along such parameters as cultural and linguistic background, skillsets and education had been strongly discredited in the discourse for decades as it "smacked of selection". The same applied for measures encouraging and/or demanding integration such as a demanding a working knowledge of German. Public voices demanding a more assertive stance on the matter were often literally struck down with "the Nazi club".
This, along with a number of other questionable policies, resulted in some very undesirable consequences like de facto (voluntary) ethnic segregation which went along with an often astounding inability to speak German among immigrants. I knew quite a few people who lived in big-city Germany for two or three decades and yet could not communicate in the most basic terms. Then again, before one might get a wrong impression, the story is not universally so bleak at all. Aforementioned phenomena were de facto largely restricted to immigrants from the near-East.
Cheers,
IJ.

hsh2

09-02-2010, 08:33 AM

He is quite right insofar as average size of households if significantly higher in families of ie. Turkic or Arabic origin.

Absolutely.

zad of course family exists in Germany as it exists in England, France, Austria, Sweden you name it.

However, there are very few German couples, living either in an apartment or a house, who live in it with kids+multiple other relatives encompassing multiple generations and degrees of kinship.

Vis à vis from me there's a Kosovo Albanian family living in a small apartment. They number 7 people. This constellation is the rule, not the exception for people of certain ethnic backgrounds living in Germany and Switzerland and probably the rest of Europe.

BTW A little heads up for the Germanophones. Tonight around 22.30 on ZDF, Maybritt Illner show.

http://maybritillner.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/19/0,1872,1021235,00.html?dr=1

Alex G

09-02-2010, 09:59 AM

BTW A little heads up for the Germanophones. Tonight around 22.30 on ZDF, Maybritt Illner show.

http://maybritillner.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/19/0,1872,1021235,00.html?dr=1

Its 22.15 and
ZDF - Das Thema: Kampf der Kulturen oder Bunte Republik Deutschland? at 21.00

AvdH

09-02-2010, 10:35 AM

Its 22.15 and
ZDF - Das Thema: Kampf der Kulturen oder Bunte Republik Deutschland? at 21.00

I don't like her and I don't like this Sendeformat. I highly doubt that it leads to any new information. Usually there are one or two guests who have to defend themselves against all others inclusing the mod.
Anyone seen Plasberg yesterday?

AvdH

09-02-2010, 10:36 AM

Double post :(

hsh2

09-02-2010, 11:11 AM

I don't like her and I don't like this Sendeformat. I highly doubt that it leads to any new information. Usually there are one or two guests who have to defend themselves against all others inclusing the mod.
Anyone seen Plasberg yesterday?

I don't like neither her nor her format either, at all and she's very "parteiisch" indeed. But this time it might get a little entertaining.

On on side there is a female Iranian activist of some kind (never seen her before) and Cem Oezdemir who most probably know, and on the other side Henryk Broder and Roger Köppel the Chefredaktor of the Weltwoche, the Swiss "National Review".

Maybe you Germans should take up a format like our Arena or Infrarouge (http://www.sendungen.sf.tv/arena/Sendungen/Arena/Archiv/Sendung-vom-27.08.2010). Obviously you wouldn't need to have one every weekend like we do (Direct democracy, volksabstimmungen etc) but still. I think it's a pretty good format. Dynamic, no holds barred free speech and impartial moderators, although I prefer the older studio the new one is a terrible eye sore:lol:

Plasberg is Hart aber Fair right? No i haven't. WHat happened?

toki

09-02-2010, 11:24 AM

4. What we don't need are low educated people that just cost us money or commit crimes. I don't speak of immigrants in particular but in general terms.
In an earlier post i talked about the German school system. Of course we don't need people with bad education. But our school system is creating pockets of kids with 0 chance. That includes many of the third generation immigrants! And we have them. There's no way of talking them away.

My idea would be overhauling the school system. It is the core of the whole integration problem. Read the earlier post. Having a 2 tier system with Gymnasium and Gesamtschule, a longer primary school and a more specialized support for different types of students. Simplifying the whole system but specializing the individual support.
This is stuff on top of my head, but PISA showed that the German school system tends to hit the extremes. This is nothing new. Specialists should be able to sort the whole mess out. But nothing ever happens.

There's a trend with many immigrant kids to "fly the German flag", our school system is not good in many regards. It allows "school ghettos". We're a rich country, it should be possible to overhaul it. (I know, that School politics is "Ländersache", but somewhere you have to start).

Anyways, when it comes to the contemporary German debate on the matter, it does not revolve so much around immigration per se, but rather about how it should be managed.
Indeed, also we're talking about families who came 40 years ago. Even if we stopped any kind of immigration completely it wouldn't solve the current debate, since we're talking about problems created in the past. We're suffering from anti-integration politics of the 60's, 70's, 80's. One method of resolution is the school system, which never adapted to any trends.

Tyon

09-02-2010, 12:26 PM

Plasberg is Hart aber Fair right? No i haven't. WHat happened?

They found out that Sarrazin is the new Eichmann...

Alex G

09-02-2010, 12:31 PM

Anyone seen Plasberg yesterday?

You would know if you would read yesterdays posts :/

Ataman

09-02-2010, 12:38 PM

I used to watch "hart aber fair"... but then came Friedman. I really hate this guy. He's an arrogant hypocrite and he gets special treatment.
Sarrazin made one big mistake. Bashing Muslims is somewhat "accepted" in Germany, but don't mess with the Juice. :D

JCR

09-02-2010, 12:41 PM

BorisA

09-02-2010, 12:49 PM

You are just jealous because of the Coke, the bitches and his natural skin colour...and is fancy alias.

Ataman

09-02-2010, 01:00 PM

JCR

09-02-2010, 01:06 PM

x2
Ye, he makes Jews look bad without even knowing it. I also don't like Broder. And I believe that both of them don't really care about Germany, their loyalty belongs to Israel. That's dangerous.

I have no problem with jews being chiefly loyal to Israel. I mean israel is the jewish state and of course they're loyal to Israel.
I pretty much disagree with everything Broder says (except when it comes to Muslims etc), but Broder gets in the ring and is not afraid of being (verbally) punched in the face. He fights, Friedman is just like a spoiled rich kid on the playground constantly nagging you that you are not allowed to hit because your dad owes his dad money and he knows it.
Friedman isn't smart, he's just an annoying word twister.
If he were a non jew, this guy would sell used cars or be a Kaffeefahrt host
Broder is more like a drunken guy at the bar reinforcing his arguments with the occasional fist on the table.
And Broder published **** when he was young, that alone demands some respect ;)

Ataman

09-02-2010, 01:19 PM

I have no problem with jews being chiefly loyal to Israel. I mean israel is the jewish state and of course they're loyal to Israel.
I pretty much disagree with everything Broder says (except when it comes to Muslims etc), but Broder gets in the ring and is not afraid of being (verbally) punched in the face. He fights, Friedman is just like a spoiled rich kid on the playground constantly nagging you that you are not allowed to hit because your dad owes his dad money and he knows it.
Friedman isn't smart, he's just an annoying word twister.
If he were a non jew, this guy would sell used cars or be a Kaffeefahrt host
Broder is more like a drunken guy at the bar reinforcing his arguments with the occasional fist on the table.
And Broder published **** when he was young, that alone demands some respect ;)

Hehe, agreed. At least I can listen to Broder without getting angry.

toki

09-02-2010, 01:22 PM

Paolo Pinkel. Veteran university student of 28 semesters...
A guy who makes his living out of the fact that no one dares to confront him because he's a jew.
He is an embarrassment to both germany and the jewish people.
I get angry the very second he starts talking
Henryk M. Broder might be controversial but at least he can take as well as he can punch, but Friedman ist just a jerk.

You are just jealous because of the Coke, the bitches and his natural skin colour...and is fancy alias.

Michel Friedmann was my landlord once. I had a CONTRACT with him, lol .... mistake... hahaha

It was at the time when his little coca issue became public. I do not recall how many times i had to call his office and scream at his poor secretary/administrator to get my deposit back. He simply bailed and left his employees alone. Theyy simply couldn't cope with their day jobs and the media buzz.
I couldn't simply walk by, since he was situated in FFM and i live in D. I would have kicked the door in.

Alex G

09-02-2010, 02:03 PM

Sarrazin probably will lose his job and his SPD membership pretty soon.

And if someone wishes to see more about immigrants and results of our education in Germany - just watch Popstars. rofl

gazell

09-02-2010, 02:24 PM

Don't be ridiculous, that is a serious manner. There are school systems which provide just as good or even better scientists and don't screw over all the others who don't make it to a university degree in the process.

Nah, I even put a smilie on that. The devil in me could not resist a laugh over the Germans bashing their education system.

I am perfectly ready to believe you and Toki that there are problems with it. The generational similarities Toki mentioned are a dad give-away.

However, whatever system you have, language - that Jones makes notes on - is a major key as a tool, without a good command of the language, pupils are not going to learn much in any system.

As some mentioned the Asian immigrants in a positive manner, the experience seems to be the same with them in Hungary. Nobody tells them to, but both Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants learn Hungarian so industriously as if there was no tommorrow. I believe it gives them a head start on being successfull.

While for those, who do not have such a personal drive to succeed, fit in and achieve; it is very hard to provide a viable incentive alongside a cosy benefit system.

Alex G

09-02-2010, 02:37 PM

Nah, I even put a smilie on that. The devil in me could not resist a laugh over the Germans bashing their education system.

I am perfectly ready to believe you and Toki that there are problems with it. The generational similarities Toki mentioned are a dad give-away.

However, whatever system you have, language - that Jones makes notes on - is a major key as a tool, without a good command of the language, pupils are not going to learn much in any system.

As some mentioned the Asian immigrants in a positive manner, the experience seems to be the same with them in Hungary. Nobody tells them to, but both Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants learn Hungarian so industriously as if there was no tommorrow. I believe it gives them a head start on being successfull.

While for those, who do not have such a personal drive to succeed, fit in and achieve; it is very hard to provide a viable incentive alongside a cosy benefit system.

Well language isnt a problem in most of cases. Kids do know it and have no big problems with it, beside grammar, but problems with it are common by germans too. But our school system does not motivate you to learn anything. You could do something out of every single person as most arent stupid but only lazy. And you can change this in school. Noone does. They maybe dont get drive to learn at home - but they should get it at school or even better in kindergarten. They may remain asocial - but they will be they will be quilified for work asocials.

toki

09-02-2010, 02:52 PM

Nah, I even put a smilie on that. The devil in me could not resist a laugh over the Germans bashing their education system.

It's hard to understand from the outside. The criticism isn't about the academic standard you receive if you end up in the right place. The transition from the first tier highschool which used to be one year longer(!) than anywhere else to university works well. The academic standard is good. The problem is a selection process that happens at around 10 - 11 years old. The help you receive prior to that is very limited.

If you're selected into the lower school form you will not receive very good schooling and have little chance to ever reach higher education. That decision is taken by teachers at ten years old, not parents!!!
I was at Gymnasium, even a tougher one (as was said). But we had not so smart kids who somehow managed to get in and some teachers who gave them enough attention to get them through. Those guys studied and now have good jobs - late bloomers maybe. Kids who had only a bit less luck in 4th grade and ended up in a not so good school form and never had the chance to be "late bloomers". If you're not adaptive enough in 4th grade you're put behind a barrier.
Problem is, that immigrant kids with lesser help at home and proper use of language will rarely make the cut. They're put together in "dumb schools" (Hauptschulen) and this pretty much makes up a combustible mix.
Same goes for German kids who end up in the lowest tier. The academic quality of those schools is measured on the weakest of all and this drags everyone else down. Pretty much a handicapped school. PISA heavily critizised this flaw in the German system. It is counterproductive for social mobility.
Germans often say their schools are better than the average American highschool for example. This may be true for the "tier one" school (Gymnasium), but not the other forms.
Nowadays you often do not even get a apprenticeship without the Abitur (diploma that allows you to go to university). The educational level of the lowest school forms automatically sends you into welfare. Problem is your fate is sealed at 10 years old.
I doubt i will find any German who disagrees that "Hauptschule" is a school of the hardknocks, criminal or welfare, not more. Such a system can't be considered "right". Solutions? there are tons of it. Special support of the talented plus special support for the not so talented.

Of course there are grey zones, but in general: In Germany you have to be an early adaptor.

gazell

09-02-2010, 02:57 PM

Well language isnt a problem in most of cases. Kids do know it and have no big problems with it, beside grammar, but problems with it are common by germans too. But our school system does not motivate you to learn anything. You could do something out of every single person as most arent stupid but only lazy. And you can change this in school. Noone does. They maybe dont get drive to learn at home - but they should get it at school or even better in kindergarten. They may remain asocial - but they will be they will be quilified for work asocials.

The majority of the population are not particularly Einstens, I am under the impression.

Otherwise, I do agree. Smart kids with an encouraging and expecting family background will succeed in any system. If they achieve their potential is another matter. (My girl is stiff bored in British primary school - though they are flexible enough that she is doing 2 year ahead math tests - the very thing that might completely put her off school is my problem here.) However, yes, primary education should provide for the lot and especially for those, who for whatever reason struggle a bit.

Ideally, for all. Hard stuff.

gazell

09-02-2010, 03:08 PM

It's hard to understand from the outside. The criticism isn't about the academic standard you receive if you end up in the right place. The transition from the first tier highschool which used to be one year longer(!) than anywhere else to university works well. The academic standard is good. The problem is a selection process that happens at around 10 - 11 years old. The help you receive prior to that is very limited.

If you're selected into the lower school form you will not receive very good schooling and have little chance to ever reach higher education. That decision is taken by teachers at ten years old, not parents!!!
I was at Gymnasium, even a tougher one (as was said). But we had not so smart kids who somehow managed to get in and some teachers who gave them enough attention to get them through. Those guys studied and now have good jobs - late bloomers maybe. Kids who had only a bit less luck in 4th grade and ended up in a not so good school form and never had the chance to be "late bloomers". If you're not adaptive enough in 4th grade you're put behind a barrier.
Problem is, that immigrant kids with lesser help at home and proper use of language will rarely make the cut. They're put together in "dumb schools" (Hauptschulen) and this pretty much makes up a combustible mix.
Same goes for German kids who end up in the lowest tier. The academic quality of those schools is measured on the weakest of all and this drags everyone else down. Pretty much a handicapped school. PISA heavily critizised this flaw in the German system. It is counterproductive for social mobility.
Germans often say their schools are better than the average American highschool for example. This may be true for the "tier one" school (Gymnasium), but not the other forms.
Nowadays you often do not even get a apprenticeship without the Abitur (diploma that allows you to go to university). The educational level of the lowest school forms automatically sends you into welfare. Problem is your fate is sealed at 10 years old.
I doubt i will find any German who disagrees that "Hauptschule" is a school of the hardknocks, criminal or welfare, not more. Such a system can't be considered "right". Solutions? there are tons of it. Special support of the talented plus special support for the not so talented.

Of course there are grey zones, but in general: In Germany you have to be an early adaptor.

Thanks for that. It does make a lot of sense, what you are saying. We have this kind of 10/11 age change system too, but it's an alternative and optional. Otherwise you decide at 14, which way you are going. In the UK it's 12, when you go to High School. At 10 all over, does seem too early, indeed.

Alex G

09-02-2010, 03:19 PM

The majority of the population are not particularly Einstens, I am under the impression.

Not Einsteins, but no down syndrom either. Just lazy.

gazell

09-02-2010, 03:23 PM

Not Einsteins, but no down syndrom either. Just lazy.

Yes. Most just need a good old push in the right direction to achieve something.

tluassa

09-02-2010, 03:30 PM

Huh ? Has there ever in the history of Germany been a larger number of young People making their Abitur and getting on to study ? I dont think so ...

Ataman

09-02-2010, 03:51 PM

Huh ? Has there ever in the history of Germany been a larger number of young People making their Abitur and getting on to study ? I dont think so ...

Is it a good or a bad sign? Quantity vs. quality? Seriously, Abitur isn't hard to get. Nowadays, studying is nothing special anymore and it neither "guarantees" a decent income nor does it save you from unemployment.

Alex G

09-02-2010, 03:52 PM

Huh ? Has there ever in the history of Germany been a larger number of young People making their Abitur and getting on to study ? I dont think so ...

If you look at international level - % of people with Abitur is very low in Germany.

toki

09-02-2010, 04:40 PM

Huh ? Has there ever in the history of Germany been a larger number of young People making their Abitur and getting on to study ? I dont think so ...
Total numbers are not so important if you look at the large numbers of people with very low qualifications. Hence the trend that you better have Abitur even though you "only" choose an apprenticeship. The total numbers of "abiturienten" doesn't hide the fact us that we have a whole branch in our school system that pretty much means welfare. The academic standard of a whole schoolform (Hauptschule) isn't even good enough to finish the possible follow up (vocational school) anymore.

This is especially a problem since the heavy industry doesn't offer the "simple worker" type jobs anymore. Communication skills and whatnot are basic everywhere.

tluassa

09-02-2010, 06:08 PM

What is this, the pessimistic trio ? :)

I just wanted to point out that "the youth" of today is pretty much doing their thing just like or even better than "former" generations , and if you think the number of dumbheads was lower some decades ago, I can only call that wishful nostalgia.

"If you look at international level - % of people with Abitur is very low in Germany."

Yes extremely low compared to Canada for example, however this number is also rising steadily since the last decade.

Im not at all defending the crappy state of some schools, but I for my part cant really complain about my education. However having went to a Gesamtschule with a pretty high rate of People leaving with a Hauptschulabschluss, realistically there was no might on earth that would have made some of the individuals in my class sit down and learn the stuff required to pass anything above that. At least not without sending them to the Army including a 24/7 Feldjäger unit watching them :)

toki

09-02-2010, 06:24 PM

...but I for my part cant really complain about my education. However having went to a Gesamtschule with a pretty high rate of People leaving with a Hauptschulabschluss, realistically there was no might on earth that would have made some of the individuals in my class sit down and learn the stuff required to pass anything above that. At least not without sending them to the Army including a 24/7 Feldjäger unit watching them :)
I cannot complain myself either. I went to Gymnasium, one that didn't even have those "internship weeks" for practical jobs, since they did not consider anyone not ending up as an academic. Lots of pseudo elitism going on, situated on Königsallee, average daddy industrial CEO or higher management (Thyssen, Mannesmann etc), lawyer or at least doctor. Klaus Esser (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Esser)'s daughter was in my class (she demanded that there should be a 3 class election system, richer people having more votes, lol). IMHO it was a good school. But i know that many kids who are not dumb end up in schools not giving them anyhting. It's not overly pessimistic to critize the system. There's simply too much wrong with the primary to secondary transition.

Hildemel

09-03-2010, 06:04 AM

not without sending them to the Army including a 24/7 Feldjäger unit watching them :)

Now THAT would be awesome.

Flamming_Python

09-09-2010, 10:41 PM

Excalibur

09-10-2010, 01:48 PM

Germany Needs More Foreigners

actually, not.
germany already has too much foreigners and about 8% unemployment.

m.i.t

09-10-2010, 02:39 PM

Germany Needs More Foreigners

Yeap.
Aging population drive Germany to an unavoidable obligation. Matter should be education and adaptaion to the order and community.

gazell

09-10-2010, 03:02 PM

Well, receiving nations and countries should seriously consider, if they want to survive or carry on with this suicidal immigrant policy. But then they have to undertake the task of bringing up children instead of importing people who do so. For the very reason of their views on family not being disturbed by recent historical bollocking, they will be the stronger population group.

A lot of them might not integrate for the very reason of these suicidal policies being rather alien to them.

Unbekannt

09-11-2010, 02:41 PM

I doubt i will find any German who disagrees that "Hauptschule" is a school of the hardknocks, criminal or welfare, not more. Such a system can't be considered "right". Solutions? there are tons of it. Special support of the talented plus special support for the not so talented.

I disagree.

Having been to a Gymnasium, Realschule, two different Hauptschulen and a Fachoberschule I can tell you that it doesn't matter on which school form you go, the teachers matter. When I was on a Gymnasium most teachers didn't give a damn about their pupils. I could do no homework at all and all the teachers would do was send a letter to my parents. Others struggled with the requirements and the teachers didn't really care either. When I switched to Realschule two years later the teachers seemed a bit better but the principal threw me out after half a year because of some rumor someone spread when I was in 5th grade. The most dedicated teachers I actually saw in the Hauptschule. They actually took their time to explain things to pupils in a manner they would understand and were hard on any troublemakers. When we graduated they worked overtime to make some extra preparation courses for the weaker students.

Besides, even if you end up in the Hauptschule, your fate is far from sealed. There are more than enough opportunities for late bloomers to get a better graduation. For example the Hauptschule offers the M-Zug, where you get your Mittlere Reife, from there you can go to the FOS to get your Fachabitur and nowadays even Abitur in Bavaria. And even without Abitur you can easily get an apprenticeship. When I graduated most of my classmates already had some sort of apprenticeship or a place at another school.

The problem is with the teachers. There are dedicated teachers who will take their time for their class and can bring weak students to a successful graduation and there are those who don't give a damn. If you happen to get the latter you're pretty much on your own, especially if your parents work full time. Another problem is that, as you said the classic jobs for Hauptschüler are getting rare. Employers are outsourcing facilities to Asia and Eastern Europe and there just aren't many physical jobs left. Other jobs constantly raise their requirements. For example banker was once a typical job for Realschüler. Nowadays they only hire people with Abitur. Some other jobs still require only a Mittlere Reife but when you apply there you're competing with dozens of people with Abitur. That's to one part because of rising requirements in the international job market and to the other because other forms of graduation lose their appreciation. There are many idiots who graduate from the Hauptschule and that's why many employers don't like to hire them. But if you throw them together in one Gesamtschule you'll only make the Realschulabschluss equally worthless. Instead our school system should start to actually give people some proper education. For example you can easily get through English exams with only a minimal understanding of the language. The same goes for German exams (which is btw also one of the causes for the lack of immigrant integration). Raise the educational standards so that the over graduations mean something again, hire some competent teachers and more support for individual students. Simply throwing them all together will only create a situation where the strong students are slowed down by the weaker students who in turn suffer under the faster pace.

Anyway we're off topic so to get back to it: The problem is that while in countries without social security your kids are basically your pension, who will care for you when you get old, citizens in modern European countries are taken care of by the state. They don't need kids so the only reason they would have them is personal desire to have them. But kids cost a lot of money and time in a world where it is normal that both parents work full time so the state has to compensate for both factors. Families with kids need to be subsidized and there need to be kindergardens and nursery schools where parents can take their kids while going to work.