Polish AK variation? Name the gun!

[Dr. Mitsos]

PLZ name the gun...
135279
Photo found here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?185244-Today-s-Pix-Monday-August-30-2010&p=5164108&viewfull=1#post5164108

It looks like some AK modernization...
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/misc/pencil.png

[gaijinsamurai]

Looks like a Beryl.

[TyroneBiggums]

Beryl wz.2004

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/Beryl_rifle_POL.jpg
(image from wiki)

[gaijinsamurai]

link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beryl_rifle_POL.jpg

[Dr. Mitsos]

Thnx!!!!...

[Jameten]

Why dont they make a higher stock? seems like that would be a huge favor for the guy/women who uses the rifle, so they dont have to lift there cheek off the stock in order to use optics:roll:

[peter.pl]

They won't make another version because Army have plan to buy Radon rifles. Soldiers are buying private parts when they need modifications. I know it's strange ;)
If someone want to know, here is photo of Radon's prototype ;)
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_MSBS-556-II_01.jpg

[Bro Jangles]

Why dont they make a higher stock? seems like that would be a huge favor for the guy/women who uses the rifle, so they dont have to lift there cheek off the stock in order to use optics:roll:
to quote Hollis on a discussion had yesturday,


I am probably not the one to comment, but from playing with holographic sights, I would say they are not used as direct sights more as peripheral sighting device. Head is up, just like CBC sighting over the barrel. Sights can create a myopia with can be deadly in CBC, heads up, eyes scanning and using the sight peripherally, it is better than just over the barrel sighting. Over the barrel sighting, the sights are not used and it takes time/practice to get use to it, like point shooting. I like the height of the halo on my AR, when it was mounted on a carry handle.

i got mine mouted fairly high, havent shot it that way yet, so i really have no opinion other than it doesnt feel normal.

[Catch22]

They won't make another version because Army have plan to buy Radon rifles. Soldiers are buying private parts when they need modifications. I know it's strange ;)
If someone want to know, here is photo of Radon's prototype ;)


Stop using that silly name proposal, the gun is officially called MSBS and so it stays. That's official for so far.

[Antey]

Stop using that silly name proposal, the gun is officially called MSBS and so it stays. That's official for so far.

Frankly, I wonder when somebody is going to finally stop throwing money away on:
- Afghanistan mission, which cost us a lot while contribution is minimal
- re-inventing the wheel:
- - Rak mortar - given it looks on Rosomak, I'd go for Patria's Nemo any day
- - MSBS (Radon) - way too late poor imitations of SCAR & F-2000; supposedly adaptable to variety of bullet types, but still tested only with 5.56 nato...
- - Loara - unnecessary, overweight SPAAG
- - Krab - very necessary, yet needing modernization while still in development; howitzer looks reasonable, but associated vehicles are crappy combination of multiple chassis types
- - my favourite: proj. 621 corvette a.k.a Gawron, which already is almost 10 years in building yet the design isn't finished and it already cost as much as LCS...
- - Bumar's "light tank" read: refurbrished MTLB with lot's of foreign components and no actual purpose (wouldn't it be better to revive SEP along with Sweden ?)

And, honestly - does anyone expect Polish Army will buy any sizeable quantity of these guns ? And why they are not beeing speed up in development, in order to be tested in Afganistan ?

[peter.pl]

Afaik Nemo is much more expensive than Rak. No one is buying Loara, MSBS is IMO fine project. Stop hateing ;P

[~~~~]

And why they are not beeing speed up in development, in order to be tested in Afganistan ?
what would it mean to "speed up in development"?

[hastati]

- - MSBS (Radon) - way too late poor imitations of SCAR & F-2000; supposedly adaptable to variety of bullet types, but still tested only with 5.56 nato...Fortunately much better informed people with serious knowledge about firearms and firearms market has diffrent opinions ;).

[Antey]

what would it mean to "speed up in development"?

Should read: speed up the development. And that should be quite obvious - work to get field testable prototypes to Afghanistan with all accessories as soon as possible.


Fortunately much better informed people with serious knowledge about firearms and firearms market has diffrent opinions ;).

ROTFL. Don't expect it to replace Beryls and other older AK-47 diveratives in our lifetime.
And you don't honestly expect that ANYONE will buy these guns ? Given that Beryls manufactured by Łucznik (now FB) were insanely expensive (almost 10x of M-4 for bare-bone configurations in some years) and with no apparent reason (old design, poor quality).
How long does this project is going anyway ?

[hastati]

ROTFL. Don't expect it to replace Beryls and other older AK-47 diveratives in our lifetime.

AK replacement will be urgent need in next decade so...


Given that Beryls manufactured by Łucznik (now FB) were insanely expensive (almost 10x of M-4 for bare-bone configurations in some years) and with no apparent reason (old design, poor quality).

Where did you find such lets say...funny info? Beryl cost around ~600 USD per unit(small orders), for example Spain payed almost 900 USD per unit for G-36.


How long does this project is going anyway ?

Extremaly short time for todays effect - two years.

Seriously, try to read some threads about it at serious Polish forums, all your doubts were explained there, even at MP.net there is good thread about MSBS.

[mr_ffox]

Look at this !!
New modification proposal for Beryl :) C-mag and M4 socket for M4 mags rocks :)


http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5017

[Antey]

Where did you find such lets say...funny info?

This calculation was based on comparison of deliveries ordered by Polish Army around time where Łucznik was beeing restructurized before becoming Fabryka Broni.
I say again: this is useless, overpriced, too much delayed toy for job generation, nothing more; and you must be honestly overoptimistic thinking that Polish industry is going to even designbuild reasonable rifle "out-of-nowhere" building only AK clones, and for better part of last 30 years - ones of very poor quality. No miracle here. Period.
Polish army won't buy it, and others have plenty of quality designs to choose from - which all are already proven and available.

Anyway, I believe that anyone is free to choose his/her own religion - if you wish to believe in "polish technical thought" ( :) ) you are of course welcome to do so. Learning form experience, I prefer to stand aside and laugh out loud - through tears, as this pointless excercise is financed through my taxes.

[REMOV]

PLZ name the gun. It looks like some AK modernization...
This is a variant of the Polish wz. 96A Beryl assault rifle called wz. 96C Beryl.

By the way

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2955/berylm02.jpg
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/278/berylm05.jpg
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/373/berylm04.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4669/berylm03.jpg

[hastati]

This calculation was based on comparison of deliveries ordered by Polish Army around time where Łucznik was beeing restructurized before becoming Fabryka Broni. So name the price, number of rifles and time of deliveries. I'd like to see that ten times bigger price.


this is uselessPossible succesor of AK family is useless?


overpricedHaha thats interesting. Tell me more about MSBS(rifle prototype) price :).


too much delayedAgain - what do you mean by "too much deleyed" or earlier, "way too late"?


toy for job generationProposition from our industry for our army - army will decide if it is suitable for them or not.


and you must be honestly overoptimistic thinking that Polish industry is going to even designbuild reasonable rifle "out-of-nowhere" building only AK clonesCeska Zbrojovka had much smaller experience before they developed their newest Cz S805 - say them that BS.
Besides many countries developed much more serious military equipment basing only at clones or license products.


and for better part of last 30 years - ones of very poor quality. No miracle here. Period.Beryl is reliable rifle what was prooved during Iraq and Afghanistan missions. It design suffer because of his grandafather disadvantages but its still weapon you can rely on.



Polish army won't buy it, and others have plenty of quality designs to choose from - which all are already proven and available.
Polish Army will prefer construction which can be modificated as much as they want without license limitations and MoD will prefer construction manufactured here, in Poland.


Sorry Antey but you are talking out off your a** using not arguments based on facts but your own imaginations.
At this moment MSBS is very promising construction and i don't see any reasons why we should cancel possibility of good investitions into our own industry and our own engineers espiecially that rifle is thing which we can do ourself, its not fighter aircraft or air-to-air missile.

[REMOV]

And that should be quite obvious - work to get field testable prototypes to Afghanistan with all accessories as soon as possible.You know, in the real world development of the new assault rifle takes from 5 to 7-9 years. This is quite normal, but you expect the MSBS-5,56 will be ready after two and a half year? And yes, for me it is quite obvious, that you do not know nothing about the firearms research and development process. By the way, from the construction point of view the F2000 and MSBS-5,56 has nothing in common.
ROTFL. Don't expect it to replace Beryls and other older AK-47 diveratives in our lifetime.If the MSBS-5,56 will be adopted around 2015 than it replace the Beryl assault rifle within the last firearm lifetime which is around 20-30 years. It quite obvious for everyone in the industry and army.
And you don't honestly expect that ANYONE will buy these guns ?The question of markieting and selling the new modular assault rifle lies in hands of the FB and Bumar sales department. The idea of the MSBS-5,56 seems rather attractive on the firearms market - weapon itself will be in the same league as the SCAR, CZ805 BREN etc. And yes, I expect that the weapon will be sold on the international military/LE and civilian market.
Given that Beryls manufactured by Lucznik (now FB) were insanely expensive (almost 10x of M-4 for bare-bone configurations in some years) and with no apparent reason (old design, poor quality).Again, I am afraid your information has nothing in common with the real world. The price of the M4 clone in the Polish market is 2-4 times higher than the price of the wz. 96A and 2-3 times than wz. 96C.
How long does this project is going anyway ?There is a lot of information about this weapon system in your own language. You should read it, before generating some strange stories on the Internet. Is it too difficult for you?

[Antey]

OK, let's just come back to the subject when first Gawron is completed, or first regiment of Krab howitzers is fielded... :D
Point is, that I don't recall any big-ticket (read, as it used to be generation ago) deals for new assault rifles around the world; it's cheaper and faster to modernize current equipment or just distribute more NV or radios among troops, which gives much better effect. And even if such market suddenly appeared, there are already more than enough contenders ready and waiting for opportunity. Countries which need to buy larger quantity of firearms, simply try develop them on their own, and after failing, usually purchase license for proven design and assemble it locally.
My bet is, that MSBS or whatever name it will have, will not make it to serial production and if anyone wishes to live his/her fantasies - again, he or she is of course more than welcome to do it. "Polish great prototypes" are laughable collection anyway...

Time will tell and I'd love to be proven wrong on this - but I don't see any reason why this project could succeed in any way other than filling pages of polish hobbyst magazines and draining budget.

[REMOV]

OK, let's just come back to the subject (...)I fully understand, you have any arguments so you try to change a topic. And yes, this is also quite obvious.
Point is, that I don't recall any big-ticket (read, as it used to be generation ago) deals for new assault rifles around the world;So? Tell us more about the information that you cannot recall something. The H&K G36 replaced a previous design battle and assault rifles in Germany, Spain, Saudi Arabia, Latvia and Lithuania, the H&K HK416 replaced the AG3 in Norway, the FN F2000 was introduced in Slovenia, CZ 805A BREN in Czech Republic, Beretta ARX 160 in Italy. By the way, about 50 thousand Beryls were purchased by the Polish Army in the same time.
it's cheaper and faster to modernize current equipmentSure, but so what? What is a connection of the upgrades of the current firearms, which is obvious procedure with purchase of the new ones? I fully understand you belive in your general theories, but the devil is in details.
or just distribute more NV or radios among troops, which gives much better effect.I do not understand your statement about the radios, there is any connections with the firearms.
And even if such market suddenly appeared, there are already more than enough contenders ready and waiting for opportunity....and one of them will be the MSBS-5,56. What part of this idea you cannot understand? ;)
Countries which need to buy larger quantity of firearms, simply try develop them on their own, and after failing, usually purchase license for proven design and assemble it locally.Only the nations without their own national firearms industry. All of the countries that have got such factories ALWAYS developes their own models - Beretta, CZ, FN Herstal, H&K. Which part of this idea you cannot understand?
My bet is, that MSBS or whatever name it will have, will not make it to serial productionWe will see, but I am afraid your assumptions are not connected in any way with the real world. They are just your pessimistic fantasies. By the way, the MSBS-5,56 R&D program is connected with a number of other military projects like Polish future soldier Tytan (Bumar's Ulan 21).

[Antey]

We will see, but I am afraid your assumptions are not connected in any way with the real world. They are just your pessimistic fantasies. By the way, the MSBS-5,56 R&D program is connected with a number of other military projects like Polish future soldier Tytan (Bumar's Ulan 21).

You are delusional. I don't need any arguments, as you have mostly proven my point yourself. Again - Time will tell.
Fortunately, MP archives will be available for some time in a future. Until then, enjoy your dreamworld :)

[REMOV]

You are delusionalAm I? You know, I have a knowledge how the Polish defence industry works, and what military programs are important as well as what are connections with them. Your opinion, on the other side, are not fact-based but... well... your own delusions. It happens.
I don't need any argumentsYes, I fully understand that you live in the world of your fantasies, not the real one. In the real world the discussion about something is a exchange of arguments and counter arguments, but fanatics do not need any, that's why you don't need any.
Fortunately, MP archives will be available for some time in a future.Yes, but I do not think that you are mature enough to apologize when once again your pessimistic vision fail to meet the real world, so... ;)

[Antey]

Yes, but I do not think that you are mature enough to apologize when once again your pessimistic vision fail to meet the real world, so... ;)

So, what's the deadline ? :)

BTW: Your opinion doesn't concern me...not by a bit :) In fact, none of national(istic) crusade optimism does not.

[Damian90]

So you are an idiot... :|


BTW: Your opinion doesn't concern me...not by a bit :-) In fact, none of national(istic) crusade optimism does not.

REMOV have great knowledge about firearms, his opinion should concern you, and I don't see any nationalism here, it is simple. Invest in our arms industry where we can should be priority, MSBS is not a tank, fighter aircraft, warship, so it have big chances to be a succes, until some haters will spread opinins like yours and there will be no support for the program.

[Antey]

So you are an idiot... :|

That remains to be seen. So far your camp has only wishful thinking.


REMOV have great knowledge about firearms, his opinion should concern you, and I don't see any nationalism here, it is simple.

I am not concerned about REMOV's opinion about me, as he certainly lacks ability to separate person from opinion - a character flaw with which also you can personally identify ;)


Invest in our arms industry where we can should be priority

Stop using words you don't understand. Investment ? What investment ? What are the risks ? What are possible gains ? What's the intended profit margin ? Projected sales volume and timetable ?
Finally - WHERE IS THE MARKET ? Main customer is know for beeing unreliable. If you wish to "invest" like that, do it - put your money where your mouth is...
This "investment" in state-run, union-possesed pitiful excuse for "defence industry" serves no practial purpose; in that way, you could well consider your ZUS related taxation also as investment... just like Altair lobby does.

It would be cheaper and more timely just to buy - around year 2000 - a license for any modern western design and put it into production in more than one facility, with fixed total annual volume order. That way we could have had modern, NATO compatible firearms already fielded in substantial numbers. Well, but it's so Polish to re-invent the wheel...
The way things go, we have a history of WIST repeating itself...


MSBS is not a tank, fighter aircraft, warship, so it have big chances to be a succes

It's "project" run by the same insitutions that wrote requirements for Krab,Loara,Gawron,Iryda,BWP-2000,Goryl and other white elephants.
It's doubtful that they can produce reasonable design, much less a complete marketable product. Even if they do - there's a case of actually selling it to somebody. There was already press-wide whining about supposedly "lost opportunities" in Iraq - where actually everybody was able to take advantage of the situation, except of polish industry, which waited for government to grab the client and bring it to them.

Sure, it would be great for MSBS to become, say...licensed to be produced by India as (IN)SAS :)
But in the meantime, I suggest you do reality check - those G-36s, MP-5s, M-4s, PSGs, Glocks, Walthers in various polish armed services are there for a reason. One can only wonder, what could it be... :>

But you, Remov and others are entirely entilted to your own opinions, of course. Yet history of polish military projects says everything contrary to what you both stand for so valiantly.


... and you don't honestly think, that ANYONE will take MP.net discussion about firearms as a factor in decision making ?

[REMOV]

So, what's the deadline ?In the 2011 will start the second R&D Program which lasts three years, so in 2014 all the test will be finised, and around 2015/2016 the MSBS will be adopted by Polish Army. I know, we will be wait so long to hear your apologize for your pessimism. So, let's say June 2016.
In fact, none of national(istic) crusade optimism does not.Yes, I know. I know people like you, full of complexes and sense of huge national inferiority which trying to pose as "realistic" and "competent" to conceal their own character weakness.

[NJB]

If produced there is no reason why the MSBS can't compete on the international small arms market . From about 2017 onwards though to 2025 a number of nations will be looking for complete replacements to current systems - so lots of oppurtunity to win markets.

Over time we will no doubt see many changes to both the bullpup and standard versions of MSBS however I believe its the bullpup design that needs to be carried forward. Given that most competitor systems - SCAR , HK416 ,G36 , ARX160 & CZ805 are not bullpups - this leaves the MSBS bullpup in a great position for armies looking for that set-up.

I'm looking forward to seeing the future versions - Remov any idea when we will see new working models ?

Best of luck MSBS !

[REMOV]

http://www.tygodnikradomski.pl/zarzadzanie/uploads/artykuly/d_kalendarz_miss.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1816/22038345.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/207/21100100.jpg
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2761/71416392.jpg
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7458/78972003.jpg

Beryl "action" photos ;)

[~~~~]

she looks like a fake Doda

[hastati]

Wait, in that pictures there is something more than sexy versions of Beryl?

[Ksiunc]

Wait, in that pictures there is something more than sexy versions of Beryl?

What Beryl?

[corran.pl]

Beryl wz.2004

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/Beryl_rifle_POL.jpg
(image from wiki)

The military designation is wz. 96C

[corran.pl]

Why dont they make a higher stock? seems like that would be a huge favor for the guy/women who uses the rifle, so they dont have to lift there cheek off the stock in order to use optics:roll:

The sights are made like this that you can use ironsight even when optics are attached - the guy on the picture is aiming using irons.