Next US Army Carbine

[NJB]

Army Times have reported that the US Army has started the process of selecting a new carbine to replace the M4.

A two stage process is in place:

1. Update the current M4 to M4a1 standard.

2. Competition for a new carbine.

Any views on the time scales and candidate systems for the competition - intertesting to see what design changes happen with the FNH Scar to meet the competion needs and if HK come up with any thing other then the HK416 - will the XM8 make a come back ?

Also I wonder if ARX160 will be in the running. Its all early days but interesting to see how this pans out over the next 12 months.

Any informed views ?

[Bro Jangles]

i bet if anything, the army gets a new upper.

[pmj]

Link? ;)

It will be interesting to see how far this effort goes. I guess Bravo Juliets assessment makes sense: As long as it's a 5.56 gun I don't think we will see anything else than an upgraded M4 (huh, maybe a HK416 or or a LWRCI gun qualifies as upgraded ;))

[Bro Jangles]

Link? ;)

It will be interesting to see how far this effort goes. I guess Bravo Juliets assessment makes sense: As long as it's a 5.56 gun I don't think we will see anything else than an upgraded M4 (huh, maybe a HK416 or or a LWRCI gun qualifies as upgraded ;))
even if it isnt 5.56, say the army goes to 6.8, it shares a lower with 5.56 lowers.

[pmj]

The article: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/08/army-seeks-better-carbine-082810w/

Unfortunately the author has clearly no idea how a gun works, not to mention the difference between DI and piston designs.



Both have their benefits and detractors, the colonel said. The piston reduces the number of moving parts and provides better stability, but there is “a little more metal on metal,” which can diminish durability and accelerate fatigue.
A gas-impingement system is far smoother in operation, and supporters say its reduced heat and carbon deposits will decrease malfunctions. But the gas system requires a lot more elbow grease to get it clean.

So far we don't even know what exactly the army is asking for, but i guess it won't be a xm29 thingy this time ;)

[Roaming East]

Army has been talking about this for over a decade. in 20 years my kids will still be using the M4...

[Hollis]

Army has been talking about this for over a decade. in 20 years my kids will still be using the M4...


Probably, it is a very versatile platform. Probably if anything remarkable comes up, it will be in ammunition design. Center fire ammo has been around for about 140 years (1870 roughly). Outside of propellants, smokeless came into being in the later 1800's, no major change. Probably like anything else, it is a matter of time.

[budgie]

Look the US is just gonna have to scrap 50 years of Armalites and admit the AK-47 is superior.

Go easy on me.

;)

[Victor1]

Actually, if the SCAR program is any indication is that the army will fund the development of a new rifle then give up midway and decide to continue with the M4 up to 2050.

[Lamer]

Just leave it to HK to come up with something, why bother with anything else anyway

[Albatross]

Just leave it to HK to come up with something, why bother with anything else anyway

HK is to proprietary and expensive, plus their customer service is horrible.

I am betting that its basically the same upper with corrections to the blowback system and dust problems. The rifle works, it just needs an upgrade.

[cone256]

Actually, if the SCAR program is any indication is that the army will fund the development of a new rifle then give up midway and decide to continue with the M4 up to 2050.

They didn't give up on the SCAR, they gave up on the 5.56mm version of the SCAR because it provided no real addition benefits when compared to the M4. However, the 7.62mm version of the SCAR is going to full-rate production and integration

[deathil93]

They didn't give up on the SCAR, they gave up on the 5.56mm version of the SCAR because it provided no real addition benefits when compared to the M4. However, the 7.62mm version of the SCAR is going to full-rate production and integration
Could you give an estimate to when the SCAR will be fully operational?

[SMGLee]

the carbine sources sought is W15QKN-10-X-0455

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=57c62a20c8a79339967a5ec320f03123

Everyone and their mother are submitting a response.

SCAR-L might be removed from SOCOM list, but a SCAR-L can still make a comeback in this solicitation.

Colt, FN, HK, Remington, Beretta, SIG, to the smaller companies such as LWRC, Vltor, POF, KAC...........if you can think of a mfg that makes a carbine, you can basically assume someone at that company is putting together a response to this.

[Soldat_Américain]

Bull pup with bayonet please :)

[Corrupt]

Bull pup with bayonet please :)

We'l sell you L85's if you want...

[mattyw]

We'l sell you L85's if you want...

we have l85s to spare? As the last I heard all the spare l85's after the upgrade all got melted down.

[Snapdad]

Can it come with a 6.5 Grendel or equivalent performing round? If not then what's the point?

It will just get cancelled yet again anyway.

[Arnie100]

Can it come with a 6.5 Grendel or equivalent performing round?

Nope. no 6.5 Grendel or 6.8. The new carbine (if one is ever adopted) will still be 5.56mm and probably use the new 5.56mm rounds (Mk318 Mod 0 or M855A1?) that are currently being issued to USMC and US Army units.

MK318 Mod 0

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/17/usmc-adopt-new-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0-ammunition/

M855A1

http://theyearindefense.com/land_forces/new-u-s-army-5-56-rounds-head-to-afghanistan

[tomrit]

any news from acr? is it still in the list?

[khalifah]

We'l sell you L85's if you want...

thanks but no thanks, we have our own bullpup's...such as the RFB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_RFB) and the M-14 (http://www.shortrifles.com/)Bulldog...

but i leave it to better minds to explain why they are not in use.
.....................................


personally, i believe the 6.8 is the best future for the US Military ammunition...

[Victor1]

They didn't give up on the SCAR, they gave up on the 5.56mm version of the SCAR because it provided no real addition benefits when compared to the M4. However, the 7.62mm version of the SCAR is going to full-rate production and integration

You know what I mean.

[Snapdad]

Nope. no 6.5 Grendel or 6.8. The new carbine (if one is ever adopted) will still be 5.56mm and probably use the new 5.56mm rounds (Mk318 Mod 0 or M855A1?) that are currently being issued to USMC and US Army units.

MK318 Mod 0

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/17/usmc-adopt-new-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0-ammunition/

M855A1

http://theyearindefense.com/land_forces/new-u-s-army-5-56-rounds-head-to-afghanistan

I know, just hoping they will go with something better performing. You can only do so much redesigning that varmint round and the M855A1 "green round" is a complete joke but completely typical of what you get from the Army. Judging from the construction it will probably be less lethal than the grossly inadequate round it is replacing. At least we will have hover jeeps though, lol.

[Arnie100]

At least we will have hover jeeps though, lol.

That thing was NASTY-looking, LOL. Anyways, here's a link to the actual article for those interested:


http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/08/army-seeks-better-carbine-082810w/

[Steak-Sauce]

Finally. p-)

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/daveb2/pulserifle.jpg

[LaoSexMachine]

Finally. p-)

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/daveb2/pulserifle.jpg


Tommy gun.

[joeyl]

I really hope something pans out of this. I can imagine a M16 platform with a quick change barrel and some of the other features you see in the highspeed weapons these days. I have no problem with a M16A5 if we can get it right and imagine how bad ass that weapon would look.

[C.Puffs]

xm-8 in 6.8mm p-)

[Bro Jangles]

I really hope something pans out of this. I can imagine a M16 platform with a quick change barrel and some of the other features you see in the highspeed weapons these days. I have no problem with a M16A5 if we can get it right and imagine how bad ass that weapon would look.
A5 was the designation for the system with the new VLTOR 7 position stock, no?

[wildcat]

waste of money, the benefits of a new weapon over the current, to me does not justify upgrading. Now if a new technology came along, that made the current case ammo system inferior, then hell yes, upgrade, but it the same thing, just different packaging. To me the upgrade is like the Camo program in the army, some idiot REMF with rank wants to be important, and show off to his political buddies that he is worth all the money they though at his department.

[deagle]

we don't have the money to buy new hardware

[brainplay]

I know, just hoping they will go with something better performing. You can only do so much redesigning that varmint round and the M855A1 "green round" is a complete joke but completely typical of what you get from the Army. Judging from the construction it will probably be less lethal than the grossly inadequate round it is replacing. At least we will have hover jeeps though, lol.

Do you know something we don't about the M855a1? The only thing we have so far is that they did "well" in gelatin tests but no other info has been made public. The longer bullet really blurs any advantage of the 6.8 upon yaw much like the mk318.

[BlackFlag]

Like BJ said, I can see the Army adopting a new upper, sooner than replacing the M16/M4 platform. That said, I certainly hope the ACR, being developed domestically, fares well.

[Snapdad]

Do you know something we don't about the M855a1? The only thing we have so far is that they did "well" in gelatin tests but no other info has been made public.

It went back to the drawing board for redesign after failing heat tests (leading to USMC buying MK318 Mod 0
/SOST).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=510226

My understanding is it is more optimized for penetration than terminal effects whereas the non-green SOST is a better overall compromise within the limitations of the 5.56. Of course any short-barreled 5.56 carbine is going to struggle mightily at the long ranges common in Afghanistan, thus this whole new carbine program is a waste of money with no real performance gains other than the somewhat more reliable piston upper.

Edit: Oops, looks like the latest version of M855a1 is now shipping so we will see how lethal and effective it is. I have my doubts based on its construction with half the bullet being a steel penetrator thus limiting the number of fragments. Maybe the bottom half is to mushroom like a hunting round instead, idk, but the problem with the old M855 was it tended not to fragment when it was supposed to... and apparently didnt penetrate well either.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

http://www.defensereview.com/u-s-army-begins-shipping-m855a1-enhanced-performance-round-a-k-a-green-ammo-improved-5-56mm-nato-round-to-warfighters-m855-ball-ammo-gets-an-upgrade/

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/news/m855a1-green-ammo-shipped-to-afghanistan/

[HK in AK]

Finally. p-)

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/daveb2/pulserifle.jpg


Here you go...................


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am76xV8Aubk&feature=related

[wildcat]

my guess on the Alien pulse rifle, the guy must of had an approved receiver from the ATF to make this.

[HK in AK]

Wildcat,

It is a converted M11/9 with a short 870 pump shotgun. The kits will eventually be out on the market, and I am considering ordering one to convert over an M11/9 I have. It would allow a select fire version...wooohoo...only it is in 9mm....

[click]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/beegaler/Funnies/not_this_s_again.jpg

10 characters

[Stl. boy]

Just pointing out the opinions of some individuals that are more "in the know" than myself or many others in regards to the new ammunition options for the US military.

M885A1 discussion:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60560

MK318 discussion (starts out as a "look, some for sale thread"):
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=506466

Recent (8/2010) summation by DocGKR at the bottom:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

As the middle thread is from TOS, you have to somewhat weed through the "noise" coming from some posters. However, Molon is known in many circles for his knowledge of ballistics, etc. Also, DocGKR is much respected expert in wound ballistics.

[Snapdad]

I find a lot of good stuff on 65grendel.com.

It would be a neat trick if green varmint ammo could reliably and consistently kill a man behind a barrier. I remain skeptical and wonder why green is a higher priority for the Army than simply lethality.

[LineDoggie]

We'l sell you L85's if you want...Ummmm, no, heard too many horror stories from Squaddies about it. Rather have a Chauchat. kidding

[Snapdad]

Ummmm, no, heard too many horror stories from Squaddies about it. Rather have a Chauchat. kidding

LOL, you sure about that? Was it's internals redesigned by HK? How about the open mag? What a POS that was.

[Migs]

There doin this again now?

[custodes]

I never posted in one of these threads before. Carry on.

[Arnie100]

There doin this again now?

Yes they are. Hopefully, something actually comes out of it.

[sgt_G]

waste of money, the benefits of a new weapon over the current, to me does not justify upgrading. Now if a new technology came along, that made the current case ammo system inferior, then hell yes, upgrade, but it the same thing, just different packaging. To me the upgrade is like the Camo program in the army, some idiot REMF with rank wants to be important, and show off to his political buddies that he is worth all the money they though at his department.

thank you >>>>>

[custodes]

thank you >>>>>

Emoticon needed. :-)

[killer99]

same **** different day

[Bro Jangles]

Wildcat,

It is a converted M11/9 with a short 870 pump shotgun. The kits will eventually be out on the market, and I am considering ordering one to convert over an M11/9 I have. It would allow a select fire version...wooohoo...only it is in 9mm....
actually that one is a converted Soumi, so ive been told.

[pmj]

Let's assume the following things for a moment: the plasma rail-gun we all hunger for is not available yet and won't be for a very long time. ;) So the armies around the world are "stuck" with conventional technology launching bullets out of steel-tubes.
It makes sense to upgrade and improve the current weapon system even if no new carbine is fielded (and that appears the general consensus here ;) )

I'm going to step out of my lane and dare to recommend the following improvements to the M4 carbine:

- freefloat rail system or monolithic upper reciever
- cold hammer forged barrel (maybe 16 instead of 14.5 inches)
- improved gas-system (midlength works very well, even on a 14.5 barrel as can be seen on the new Bravo Company guns)
- advanced metal finishes (fail-zero exo surface conversion for the bcg and hammer-group, nitrocarburized barrel)
- new buttstock and pistol-grip (there are some excellent designs out there, pick one you like ;) )
- better feedings devices (Pmag, Tango Down ACR, upcoming HK polymer mags are all superior to the current aluminum magazine)
- adopt the new sost round MK318

voila' there's your stop-gap solution. and it's affordable.

*steps back in lane*

[Soldat_Américain]

You know back in the 80s they were testing the flechette ammunition in the Advance Combat Rifle tests...we could go with those. No news from the LWRC program yet which should change things in regards to ammunition.

[JC0352]

Why don't they invest more money into weapons training so they can more efficiently use the suitable weapons they already have?

Oh wait, look how smart they were going about with this camo fiasco...:roll:

Just send more weapons instructors to courses conducted by Magpul, and the like. Spending loads of money on new kit doesn't make troops that much more lethal, unless there's some huge technological breakthrough in small arms technology as it's already been said.

[Virus]

Stop making sense JC, it doesn't give with government/military spending. ok?

[Victor1]

A5 was the designation for the system with the new VLTOR 7 position stock, no?

So I've heard.

[Victor1]

Oops,I feel deeply embarassed now.

[brainplay]

You know, I just realized something.

135359
Mk318

That is a crap load of copper (yes that's copper). There have already been complaints about scrap metal scavengers trying to infiltrate firing ranges to scavenge brass casings. Wait till the berms fill up with these things.

[James]

I find a lot of good stuff on 65grendel.com.

It would be a neat trick if green varmint ammo could reliably and consistently kill a man behind a barrier. I remain skeptical and wonder why green is a higher priority for the Army than simply lethality.

EPA stuff at home. A variety of groups have been accusing the military of harming the environment for years with the use of bullets with lead in them.

[Snapdad]

Let's assume the following things for a moment: the plasma rail-gun we all hunger for is not available yet and won't be for a very long time. ;) So the armies around the world are "stuck" with conventional technology launching bullets out of steel-tubes.
It makes sense to upgrade and improve the current weapon system even if no new carbine is fielded (and that appears the general consensus here ;) )

I'm going to step out of my lane and dare to recommend the following improvements to the M4 carbine:

- freefloat rail system or monolithic upper reciever
- cold hammer forged barrel (maybe 16 instead of 14.5 inches)
- improved gas-system (midlength works very well, even on a 14.5 barrel as can be seen on the new Bravo Company guns)
- advanced metal finishes (fail-zero exo surface conversion for the bcg and hammer-group, nitrocarburized barrel)
- new buttstock and pistol-grip (there are some excellent designs out there, pick one you like ;) )
- better feedings devices (Pmag, Tango Down ACR, upcoming HK polymer mags are all superior to the current aluminum magazine)
- adopt the new sost round MK318

voila' there's your stop-gap solution. and it's affordable.

*steps back in lane*
Affordable and not much better than what they have now for Afghanistan other than the piston. Short barrels and 5.56 = not nearly enough reach out and touch.

[pmj]

Affordable and not much better than what they have now for Afghanistan other than the piston. Short barrels and 5.56 = not nearly enough reach out and touch.

I didn't even mention a piston :D
For the war in Afghanistan more 7.62 guns are probably the best short-term solution - simply field more MK 17 (scar heavy) or one of the SR-25 versions (LMT MWS, KAC M110 A1 etc. ) and 7.62 MG's.
Concerning the 5.56: the new MK 318 round is a lot better than the M885, especially against soft targets. And most soldiers aren't trained to shoot beyond 300 meters anyway.
The current M4 is a lot better (accurate) than the Hadji AK clones. If the enemy uses PKM's, simply shoot back with 7.62 guns ;)

[Snapdad]

I didn't even mention a piston :D
For the war in Afghanistan more 7.62 guns are probably the best short-term solution - simply field more MK 17 (scar heavy) or one of the SR-25 versions (LMT MWS, KAC M110 A1 etc. ) and 7.62 MG's.
Concerning the 5.56: the new MK 318 round is a lot better than the M885, especially against soft targets. And most soldiers aren't trained to shoot beyond 300 meters anyway.
The current M4 is a lot better (accurate) than the Hadji AK clones. If the enemy uses PKM's, simply shoot back with 7.62 guns ;)

Why/how would you upgrade the gas system without a piston?

7.62 is an interim solution but drastically cuts down on ammo load.

US Army is not using Mk 318 because it isn't green. Bizarre huh?

You are preaching to the choir on training deficiencies.

The enemy does employ these medium to long range 7.62x54R and RPG attacks regularly from what I have read. IMO professional infantry should be trained and equipped to hit targets beyond 300m. I dont think the 5.56 is even useful for suppressive fire beyond those ranges out of the short barrel but dont want to get into the usual flame wars because the manual claims the M4 is effective to 500m or whatever fantasy. I also dont expect the military to adopt a proper long range round like the 6.5 even if it is obviously a good idea for terrain/wars like Afghanistan. The British got so hosed with the .280 British... Sorry guys.

[pmj]

Why/how would you upgrade the gas system without a piston?

7.62 is an interim solution but drastically cuts down on ammo load.

US Army is not using Mk 318 because it isn't green. Bizarre huh?

You are preaching to the choir on training deficiencies.

The enemy does employ these medium to long range 7.62x54R and RPG attacks regularly from what I have read. IMO professional infantry should be trained and equipped to hit targets beyond 300m. I dont think the 5.56 is even useful for suppressive fire beyond those ranges out of the short barrel but dont want to get into the usual flame wars because the manual claims the M4 is effective to 500m or whatever fantasy. I also dont expect the military to adopt a proper long range round like the 6.5 even if it is obviously a good idea for terrain/wars like Afghanistan. The British got so hosed with the .280 British... Sorry guys.

I hear you :)
Concerning the gas system: a midlenght DI system is a lot less harsh on the gun than a carbine system, and it's cheap ;)
An intermediate round is not a bad idea, but as you said - it's very unlikely to happen, especially because a true intermediate round would require a new gun, not just a new upper. Look here for an excellent proposition: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19936

[Clear_blues]

any news from acr? is it still in the list?

I think the Army scrapped the project, now being sold on civilian market

[Snapdad]

I hear you :)
Concerning the gas system: a midlenght DI system is a lot less harsh on the gun than a carbine system, and it's cheap ;)
An intermediate round is not a bad idea, but as you said - it's very unlikely to happen, especially because a true intermediate round would require a new gun, not just a new upper. Look here for an excellent proposition: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19936

DI is still DI and suffers most of the associated problems I would assume. If you are going with a new upper it would of course be piston because they are cleaner and more reliable.

IDK about non AR length being necessary. I consider 6.5 or similar performing rounds to be "true intermediate rounds". Perhaps you mean universal round as in intended to replace 7.62 as well? That is another debate but 7.62 isn't going anywhere as a support weapon anyway so we will always have a 2 cartridge system even if the varmint round is phased out.

[Maitreya]

Team,

If anyone who knows anything about DoD procurement process..
http://procnet.pica.army.mil/FBO/SrcSgt/W15QKN-10-X-0455/W15QKN-10-X-0455.htm

Its pretty obvious that the reason SCAR-16, order was scrapped, because 5.56 is
not cutting it, everyone knows it. Hence in this RFI, is opening the door...
This way, it will give us time and will allow 5.56 do be phased out in a
graceful manner.

After all, not just us, but all of NATO and other friendlies have put lot of stock
in this round and doing anything otherwise would not be prudent.

Very Respectfully
M

[marleynrs8]

I've read in a few places we want to go caseless...check out the LSAT rifle, it's a work in progress. Army's pushing it through, but we'll see. Until then we can only speculate.

[Snapdad]

Team,

If anyone who knows anything about DoD procurement process..
http://procnet.pica.army.mil/FBO/SrcSgt/W15QKN-10-X-0455/W15QKN-10-X-0455.htm

Its pretty obvious that the reason SCAR-16, order was scrapped, because 5.56 is
not cutting it, everyone knows it. Hence in this RFI, is opening the door...
This way, it will give us time and will allow 5.56 do be phased out in a
graceful manner.

After all, not just us, but all of NATO and other friendlies have put lot of stock
in this round and doing anything otherwise would not be prudent.

Very Respectfully
M

Maybe SOC, USMC, the British and NATO allies can have their own joint program to adopt something better without the Army and their green varmint rounds. I can dream.

[Bro Jangles]

I've read in a few places we want to go caseless...check out the LSAT rifle, it's a work in progress. Army's pushing it through, but we'll see. Until then we can only speculate.
caseless has been a dream for a long time.

[Snapdad]

caseless has been a dream for a long time.

Yep and all seem to be 5.56 or smaller. *sigh*

[Bro Jangles]

Yep and all seem to be 5.56 or smaller. *sigh*
5.56 has been killin bad guys dead for 50+ years.... *sigh*

[Maitreya]

5.56 has been killin bad guys dead for 50+ years.... *sigh*

Totally agree. Against a conventional force, no problem, 5.56 will get the job done, period.

At 300 ~ 800 metres/yrds needed in Astan and in built-up areas in Iraq, its just not
cutting it. Sad but True.

We are dealing with Asym warfare and where bad guys have learnt from our
Nam and 1st GW experience and is using terrain and distance to fight us.
So, we must adjust accordingly or else....

VR
M

[Snapdad]

5.56 has been killin bad guys dead for 50+ years.... *sigh*

Yep. Doesn't mean it is an optimal solution for the current wars though. The multiple NATO complaints and multiple efforts to improve it or replace it with 7.62 or other seem to indicate there is a problem with performance. The various militaries and services said as much before the last 4 or so improved round attempts.

[marleynrs8]

caseless has been a dream for a long time.

Nope, they've actually done it this time. It's working too.

[Arnie100]

Nope, they've actually done it this time. It's working too.

Do you have a link?

[USMCRTop]

i know I'm old-I was always taught, "training and discipline always make up for equipment deficiencies..."

[cliffg]

FN-FAL PARA in .280/30, with FN-MAG to match. Better 55 years late than never.

[18SASS]

I think the Army scrapped the project, now being sold on civilian market Where did you get your info? Online? Damn I didnt even know they tested it.

[Bro Jangles]

Where did you get your info? Online? Damn I didnt even know they tested it.
ya it was never an Army project, rather good marketing on Magpul/Bushmaster/Remington.

[18SASS]

Magpul/Bushmaster/Remington. Damn what a cluster****

[Bro Jangles]

Damn what a cluster****
what you mean?

[18SASS]

what you mean?

I guess their marketing backfired... ACR hate is bad

I hope for Remingtons sake they get a chance and submit one for trial. They have put so much into the ACR.

[Alfacentori]

I though everyone had a hard on for the new 6.8mm case over the 5.56, with the carbine type being optional?

Alfa

[Arnie100]

6.8mm for any future US carbine is not gonna happen.

[18SASS]

6.8 is great under 300 meters. Shreds cars, cover etc. Just drops like a rock after 300...

[Bro Jangles]

I guess their marketing backfired... ACR hate is bad

I hope for Remingtons sake they get a chance and submit one for trial. They have put so much into the ACR.
ya, civvy hate is really strong after what they did, delays, price, final model, sad cuz Magpul put so much TLC into it.

[Alfacentori]

6.8mm for any future US carbine is not gonna happen.


6.8 is great under 300 meters. Shreds cars, cover etc. Just drops like a rock after 300...

Ok, I thought it was proven to be superior in accuracy, range, and penetration compared to the 5.56? or was it all the usual hype?

Alfa

[18SASS]

Yeah I remember seeing some Bushmaster folk approach Magpul at Modern Day Marine a few years ago. Magpul were so excited with their little rifle project.


Ok, I thought it was proven to be superior in accuracy, range, and penetration compared to the 5.56? or was it all the usual hype?

Alfa

There was some intensive testing performed at Camp Butner NC on it with bullets in the 110-115grain range and after a few 1000 rnds it was evident that it was not a long range cartridge. Silver state armory and hornady ammo was tested. 6.8mm has seen action in small numbers. Mostly SOF.

[Arnie100]

Usual hype. IIRC, the 6.8 was originally intended for CQB. And as I've stated before, the Army and the Marines have already adopted two new 5.56mm rounds that's supposed to improve the lethality of the 5.56mm. We'll just have to wait and see how these new rounds perform in actual combat. The only country that I know of that has adopted the 6.8mm was Jordan for use with their royal bodyguards.

[Clear_blues]

Where did you get your info? Online? Damn I didnt even know they tested it.

Things I pick up here and there, alot of the firearms orientated magazines at the beginning of the summer all featured extensive ads and articles concerning the civilian ACR with multiple shooting competition shooters backing up the weapon. Not quite sure where it stands now.

[akd]

Things I pick up here and there, alot of the firearms orientated magazines at the beginning of the summer all featured extensive ads and articles concerning the civilian ACR with multiple shooting competition shooters backing up the weapon. Not quite sure where it stands now.

Well, it was never an Army project nor submitted to any competitive process for acquisition by any branch of the US mil.

Finally held one of the "tactical" models over the weekend. F'ing heavy bugger.

[Migs]

i know I'm old-I was always taught, "training and discipline always make up for equipment deficiencies..."
But the problem here isn't training it's the equipment.
Remember this quote?

Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born

[NJB]

My view on the whole thing is this:

1. Most likely outcome - a new gas piston upper on the M4 + new bolt & ambi selector.

2. However its possible that a 'new' carbine will get selected as much for mid to long term financial reasons - my guess is most likely the FNH SCAR or a modified version of it (however would love to see a version of XM8 brought back into the mix but I doubt that will happen - I guess HK will pitch the HK416 only)

[USMCRTop]

But the problem here isn't training it's the equipment.
Remember this quote?

what I meant was that the equipment isn't always the limiting factor-the VC was not as well equipped as us, but that doesn't mean they sat around and gave up

[Snapdad]

6.8 is great under 300 meters. Shreds cars, cover etc. Just drops like a rock after 300...
6.5 outperforms even 7.62 to past 800m.

[marleynrs8]

Do you have a link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Small_Arms_Technologies I would have posted the more official link but I'm having a hard time finding it. The whole article is interesting, but scroll down to see the part about the caseless ammunition.

[brainplay]

6.5 outperforms even 7.62 to past 800m.

6.5 is a WSM and will jam more than an M16a1 in a muddy rice paddy the second anyone drives it hard. Every once in a while someone will point this out on their boards and then get ignored and buried with another 5 pages of 5.56mm sucks.

[Migs]

what I meant was that the equipment isn't always the limiting factor-the VC was not as well equipped as us, but that doesn't mean they sat around and gave up
Heh unless we are going to start the old "don't shoot till you see the white's of their eye's", longer ranged weapons are needed. Not exactly "needed" but it seems they would help.

[18SASS]

6.5 outperforms even 7.62 to past 800m.

I was refering to 6.8 ! ?

6.5 x .284 is what you were refering to right? You done time on the range with 6.5?

[Mein Teil]

My view on the whole thing is this:

1. Most likely outcome - a new gas piston upper on the M4 + new bolt & ambi selector.

2. However its possible that a 'new' carbine will get selected as much for mid to long term financial reasons - my guess is most likely the FNH SCAR or a modified version of it (however would love to see a version of XM8 brought back into the mix but I doubt that will happen - I guess HK will pitch the HK416 only)

With your first guess you have about a 98% chance of being right. How do I know? I'm involved with the project/competition for these new retrofit parts/kits. The DOD is looking over a whole range of parts/kits to upgrade the M4. the problem is testing is slow and many preliminary finalists are still finalizing designs and putting demo models together. I sincerely hope something good comes out of it because there are a lot of smart people with good new products involved. The military likes to buy new toys but with the defense budget the way it is their wish lists will probably be watered down in some manner. Untill then we'll just have to wait and see what we get. In any event it will be win win for AR fans because I'm sure some of this stuff will wnd up in the civillian market.

[Bro Jangles]

The AR15 system isnt designed to use a piston. even high end guns have a bolt tilt issue. I say, Leave it a DI gun and go into the midlength gas system.

[Mein Teil]

The AR15 system isnt designed to use a piston. even high end guns have a bolt tilt issue. I say, Leave it a DI gun and go into the midlength gas system.

You'll eat your words in a couple of months ;).

[Bro Jangles]

You'll eat your words in a couple of months ;).
really now. i am really interested now. can you give us any details, understand if you cant.

[Mein Teil]

really now. i am really interested now. can you give us any details, understand if you cant.

Sorry, but I'm hoping to reveal what I have on mp.net by Christmas...think no bolt tilt...absolutely none...and not a bandaid fix either. I will be selling to the public too so please be patient.

[Bro Jangles]

Sorry, but I'm hoping to reveal what I have on mp.net by Christmas...think no bolt tilt...absolutely none...and not a bandaid fix either. I will be selling to the public too so please be patient.
mp.net discount? lol jk

[Snapdad]

6.5 is a WSM and will jam more than an M16a1 in a muddy rice paddy the second anyone drives it hard. Every once in a while someone will point this out on their boards and then get ignored and buried with another 5 pages of 5.56mm sucks.

You have proof of this right?

[Snapdad]

I was refering to 6.8 ! ?

6.5 x .284 is what you were refering to right? You done time on the range with 6.5?

6.5 Grendel. Don't currently own one (ammo too expensive) but examine the ballistics achieved with the high BC projectile.

http://www.65grendel.com/

[deagle]

i don't think they're gonna bring out the ray guns

i think they should consider a bullpup design for the open casting call

[Bro Jangles]

i don't think they're gonna bring out the ray guns

i think they should consider a bullpup design for the open casting call
id prefer a traditional design, and i tend to believe the DoD agrees with me. some bull pups are great, but most traditional guns dont have the draw backs of bullpups, IE, Ejection port, Sloppy trigger, hard to reach selectors.

[MichaelF]

Bullpups are unwelcome in the American rifle culture. It's just one of our idiosyncracies.

[GG]

News? I wrote about this back in April

http://soldiersystems.net/2010/04/12/the-future-of-us-army-small-arms/

[gaijinsamurai]

Bullpups are unwelcome in the American rifle culture. It's just one of our idiosyncracies.

I'm not a fan of bullpups.

[James]

Hmm, we could do an AR in .243, which has been a successful hunting cartridge in the U.S. for more than 50 years. I believe DPMS offers a commercial version. The Brits had it right in the 50s, when they were messing around with the .280. To bad we forced them and the rest of NATO into the .308. Imagine if we'd adopted the M14 and M60 in .243 or .280, and the Brits had done so with the FAL and MAG58, others with the G3...

[Mr.Armageddon]

Oh boy! Another AR program the Army will throw money into just to can months before it is complete!

[Moriarti]

Army Times have reported that the US Army has started the process of selecting a new carbine to replace the M4.

A two stage process is in place:

1. Update the current M4 to M4a1 standard.

2. Competition for a new carbine.


The only difference between an M4 and an M4A1 is the trigger group. (the A1 is full aouto instead of burst)


Could you give an estimate to when the SCAR will be fully operational?

the SCAR-L is canceled

[pmj]

The only difference between an M4 and an M4A1 is the trigger group. (the A1 is full aouto instead of burst)



the SCAR-L is canceled

The m4a1 also has a slightly heavier barrel. The Scar-L might be cancelled but may "come back" as a 5.56 conversion set for the MK17.

[Hawkeye65]

Great so the gov't will just spend $20 million in development and procurement and then decided to stay with the M4A1/M16A4. Maybe we will get a fully ambidextrous striker fired bullpup out of this.

[Jippo]

the SCAR-L is canceled

Actually it is not, it is just that the SOCOM stopped buying them. It is entirely possible that an army, US or other, might want to purchase them in large numbers.

Although it is popssible that further development of the H-model would make them redundant.

[Snapdad]

Hmm, we could do an AR in .243, which has been a successful hunting cartridge in the U.S. for more than 50 years. I believe DPMS offers a commercial version. The Brits had it right in the 50s, when they were messing around with the .280. To bad we forced them and the rest of NATO into the .308. Imagine if we'd adopted the M14 and M60 in .243 or .280, and the Brits had done so with the FAL and MAG58, others with the G3...

6mm SAW was actually considered due to its improved long range capability before they inevitably went with the slightly too small 5.56 for the M249. .25 was evaluated in the 1920's as part of the Garand and .276 Pederson trails and caused some extremely nasty wounds to pigs. Personally, I think 6mm offers too little of an improvement to bother with while the 6.5 Grendel is an awfully big bullet for the cartridge and AR platform and is kind of overkill if the 7.62 is to be kept as a support weapon anyway as it presumably will be. A high BC .25 bullet in a modified SPC cartridge may be a nice balance to give you the (Grendel-like) long range performance required for battlefields such as Afghanistan along with presumably improved terminal effects and penetration over 5.56. It would also be slightly lighter and theoretically less expensive to produce and ship in bulk than the 6.5 Grendel, an important consideration for military logistics. Maybe the British can partner with SOC and other interested members to develop it or something similar.

[marko16]

It will be the new colt piston. Suddenly it comes out and the suddenly the Army needs a new rifle, coincidence? I don't think so.

[Arnie100]

Everybody makes a gas piston M4-type carbine. What makes the Colt so special?

[Mein Teil]

It will be the new colt piston. Suddenly it comes out and the suddenly the Army needs a new rifle, coincidence? I don't think so.

No, Colt is responding to the DOD's request for upgrade kits, and it's not only a piston that's required. I wouldn't count on them being the defacto winner just yet.

[Bro Jangles]

Everybody makes a gas piston M4-type carbine. What makes the Colt so special?
Because they own the Armies soul.

[Arnie100]

Not necssarily. Colt lost the SCAR contract and the SOCOM pistol contract. Those are only TWO programs Colt lost to other competitors. There are more. Colt lost to H&K during the IAR competition. Remember when Colt complained about the XM-8 program (and the US Army really wanted the XM-8)? Colt has a contract with the Army to supply M4s right now, sure. But when that contract runs out, the playing field's wide open.

[Bro Jangles]

Not necssarily. Colt lost the SCAR contract and the SOCOM pistol contract. Those are only TWO programs Colt lost to other competitors. There are more. Colt lost to H&K during the IAR competition. Remember when Colt complained about the XM-8 program (and the US Army really wanted the XM-8)? Colt has a contract with the Army to supply M4s right now, sure. But when that contract runs out, the playing field's wide open.
minor point, the Army has nothing to do with the IAR. but Colt just got contracts for 240.... but FN usa got contracts for M16A4

[Arnie100]

Can you imagine how IRATE Colt would be if the Smith & Wesson M&P15 won the contract?

[Bro Jangles]

Can you imagine how IRATE Colt would be if the Smith & Wesson M&P15 won the contract?
would finally live up to the M in the name.

[Moriarti]

minor point, the Army has nothing to do with the IAR. but Colt just got contracts for 240.... but FN usa got contracts for M16A4

Definition of irony.

[Hawkeye65]

Actually it is not, it is just that the SOCOM stopped buying them. It is entirely possible that an army, US or other, might want to purchase them in large numbers.

Although it is popssible that further development of the H-model would make them redundant.

Indeed the SCAR-L is not canceled. Plenty of other non-US units are using them, mainly in Belgium. Some Mk.16s are being sold to LE/SWAT units here in the states as well. Just because USSOCOM doesn't want them anymore, doesn't mean the SCAR-L program is scrapped here at FN.

[Moriarti]

Right - my point was that the US Mil canceled the procurement of further SCAR-L rifles...and since we were on the topic of the next US Carbine, and it was previously intimated that the logical successor *may* be the SCAR-L, I was simply pointing out that the project had been curtailed. I appologize for offending the sensibilities of those that are emotionally invested in said program or in FN.

[3rdMillhouse]

Everybody makes a gas piston M4-type carbine. What makes the Colt so special?

They can't let the past go.

[Snapdad]

Colt has offered gas piston uppers to the Army many times along with other improvements. The Army was never interested...

[3rdMillhouse]

Colt has offered gas piston uppers to the Army many times along with other improvements. The Army was never interested...

The army is waiting for phasers. NOw, I have a question, the Army is actually waiting for the next big breakthrough in small arms technology, which some say it'll either plastic-cased or caseless ammunition. My question is, would it be possible to fired a plastic-encased 5.56 round out of an M16 without the need of modifications to the bolt and firing pin?

[Hawkeye65]

The army is waiting for phasers. NOw, I have a question, the Army is actually waiting for the next big breakthrough in small arms technology, which some say it'll either plastic-cased or caseless ammunition. My question is, would it be possible to fired a plastic-encased 5.56 round out of an M16 without the need of modifications to the bolt and firing pin?
I think the Austrians did something like this with the Stg. 77. Not sure how much modification was done. Regardless if we went with caseless ammo I am sure a totally new rifle would be designed and built. No point in making that big of a leap in technology to put it in a 50 year old design.

[Snapdad]

High BC .25 or 6.5 caseless would be great but we will probably end up with 4mm like the HK ammo or something similarly pathetic. At least it will be green...

[11 Bravo]

Look the US is just gonna have to scrap 50 years of Armalites and admit the AK-47 is superior.

Go easy on me.

;)


So have you ever really got into the AKM vs AR thing on the gorund level... ownwed either and shot the hell out of both. Nah you have'nt so troll on baby.

[California Joe]

Pretty sure Budgie was making a funny there pal. Not funny granted, but still....

[3rdMillhouse]

I think the Austrians did something like this with the Stg. 77. Not sure how much modification was done. Regardless if we went with caseless ammo I am sure a totally new rifle would be designed and built. No point in making that big of a leap in technology to put it in a 50 year old design.

But...but....but...but... but America is gonna give up the design of the M16? :( It's like Russia giving up on the kalashnikov, a crime against history.

[bugkill]

The m4 does have its faults, but I see absolutely ZERO reason for the Army changing from it for the whole Army. Only special operations forces, infantry units, and cav scouts, should be allowed to change their carbines, not the rest of the Army. I know that Iraq was a 360 degree battlefield and many other units got involved in the fight, but if you are going to switch rifles it should be done for units whose primary job is to close and destroy the enemy with direct fires and their main weapon is their rifles, machine guns, and anti-armor systems.

Armor units don't need a new rifle, neither do the FA, MI, QM, ORD, and other branches. It would be a complete waste of money outfitting these other units with a new rifle when the m4 is suitable for them and the job they have to do. Light fighters, special ops, and recon units go out to kill the enemy, not just get attacked when performing a duty, but to actually kick in doors and shoot bad guys or be able to fight their way out of a situation when compromised during a recon mission. I know that FA units did some infantry type of ops (I was part of that in Iraq) and some MPs, but it does not justify them getting a new rifle, no way.

[SilentType]

The companies with a lot of money are going to be doing rifles that are from scratch here to fit specifically the requirements being laid out.

I don't think just shoving the FNH SCAR in front of the US Army is going to get the job done here.

Everyone is going to be looking at the rifles out currently such as the SCAR, ACR, ARX160, TAVOR, and so forth and looking to incorporate all the strong points of those various rifles into one platform.

What you're going to see is not a leap forward, but it will be a serious step forward in firearms. Everyone has this expectation that it's either laser rifles or caseless ammo to justify changing from the M16 series of rifles, but there is a lot we can do to improve our service rifle.

[SilentType]

Right - my point was that the US Mil canceled the procurement of further SCAR-L rifles...and since we were on the topic of the next US Carbine, and it was previously intimated that the logical successor *may* be the SCAR-L, I was simply pointing out that the project had been curtailed. I appologize for offending the sensibilities of those that are emotionally invested in said program or in FN.

SOCOM dropped the MK16s, but has continued to order MK17s. They're just going with 7.62 NATO for Afghanistan and sticking with the M4 for 5.56, because why spend the money on the MK16s when the U.S. Army is about to do a serious procurement of a new carbine?

[SilentType]

The m4 does have its faults, but I see absolutely ZERO reason for the Army changing from it for the whole Army. Only special operations forces, infantry units, and cav scouts, should be allowed to change their carbines, not the rest of the Army. I know that Iraq was a 360 degree battlefield and many other units got involved in the fight, but if you are going to switch rifles it should be done for units whose primary job is to close and destroy the enemy with direct fires and their main weapon is their rifles, machine guns, and anti-armor systems.

Armor units don't need a new rifle, neither do the FA, MI, QM, ORD, and other branches. It would be a complete waste of money outfitting these other units with a new rifle when the m4 is suitable for them and the job they have to do. Light fighters, special ops, and recon units go out to kill the enemy, not just get attacked when performing a duty, but to actually kick in doors and shoot bad guys or be able to fight their way out of a situation when compromised during a recon mission. I know that FA units did some infantry type of ops (I was part of that in Iraq) and some MPs, but it does not justify them getting a new rifle, no way.

One word: "Logistics."

Nobody wants to haul in multiple spare parts for multiple service rifles if they can avoid it. Adds to cost and increases difficulty in training.

[Arnie100]

One word: "Logistics."

Nobody wants to haul in multiple spare parts for multiple service rifles if they can avoid it. Adds to cost and increases difficulty in training.

That's exactly it.

[Soldat_Américain]

How about instead of Carbine we get a Rifle.

[bugkill]

One word: "Logistics."

Nobody wants to haul in multiple spare parts for multiple service rifles if they can avoid it. Adds to cost and increases difficulty in training.

Trust me, as a former logisitics NCO and armorer, i can tell you that it would not be a problem. The real costs would come with ordering all the new weapons and slowly pass them down to all the units in the Army, which would create the very problem you brought up with multiple service rifles in the system. However, if you clearly state that only specific units will receive new rifles, you not only save money, but you also avoid the system being flooded with even more multiple rifle parts because you can take it to the bank that it will take years for the whole Army to switch to a new service rifle. Hell, we still have units carrying around m16s and the m4 has been out since 1995-96.

The best option is to limit the production because there is no reason to outfit the whole Army with a new rifle. The m4 does the job, but light figthers do need a more dependable rifle for upcoming conflicts and possible wars. If your job is not to be in direct combat and to take and hold enemy territory, you don't need a new rifle, simple as that. People should not confuse non-combat units seeing combat in Iraq and Afghanistan with certain combat arms units, there is a difference.

[Arnie100]

If your job is not to be in direct combat and to take and hold enemy territory, you don't need a new rifle, simple as that.

Yeah, but what's to stop the other guys from wanting the new toy (if one is ever adopted)?

[bugkill]

Yeah, but what's to stop the other guys from wanting the new toy (if one is ever adopted)?

Easy, when DOD and the DOA say they can't have one. It would make no sense and would be a waste of money. The m4 is a good enough rifle for non-combat units, but the truth is that the decision is not up to me, so my opinion means squat.

[Moriarti]

Roger about which one was canceled. Hence - I said SCAR-L and not SCAR-H.... BUT I don't think that it is as simple as all that, but I am just a REMF, so who knows> ;)

[MichaelF]

One word: "Logistics."

Nobody wants to haul in multiple spare parts for multiple service rifles if they can avoid it. Adds to cost and increases difficulty in training.

DING! We have a winner.

[MichaelF]

but light figthers do need a more dependable rifle for upcoming conflicts and possible wars.

Your terminology is incorrect. Light Fighter (aka Light Infantry) is a small subset of the Infantry Branch. Mechanized, Airborne, Stryker and Air Assault are also in the mix.

Infantry /= Light Fighter.

And, FYI, having two different Service rifles in inventory is a drain on the system (seperate parts, seperate PMCS and Armorer training, etc). You also lose the economy of scale for both items.

Lastly, multi-level Combined Arms ops (where a significant non-Infantry slice is present) are needlessly complicated by this (especially if the Grunts-only rifle is chambered for a different round).

[highdiver_2000]

I think the Austrians did something like this with the Stg. 77. Not sure how much modification was done. Regardless if we went with caseless ammo I am sure a totally new rifle would be designed and built. No point in making that big of a leap in technology to put it in a 50 year old design.

In caseless rounds, heat removal is a major problem. The next problem is the ruggedness of the round. Especially when you need to reload the magazine in field or under fire.

[Snapdad]

How about instead of Carbine we get a Rifle.

This.........

[Bro Jangles]

This.........
let me guess.... in 6.5...


i agree though, a rifle is a better idea. let the Strykers, Airborne, Mech have carbines.

[Snapdad]

let me guess.... in 6.5...


i agree though, a rifle is a better idea. let the Strykers, Airborne, Mech have carbines.

Something with adequate long-range capability would be effective enough. 5.56 carbine as standard issue is a joke for a professional force especially if you cannot rely on close air as before.

[Cifu]

In caseless rounds, heat removal is a major problem. The next problem is the ruggedness of the round. Especially when you need to reload the magazine in field or under fire.

Sorry to interrupt you, but when do you need to reload your magazin under fire? AFAIK a normal GI only carry loaded magazines, but no spare ammo boxes to reload them. Or perhaps i'm wrong?

[Corrupt]

How about instead of Carbine we get a Rifle.

God forbid such a logical solution take place.


Sorry to interrupt you, but when do you need to reload your magazin under fire? AFAIK a normal GI only carry loaded magazines, but no spare ammo boxes to reload them. Or perhaps i'm wrong?

Just from a British Pov, but the platoon sergeant carries a lot of spare ammo with him to dish out after an assault, I presume that would need to be loaded into magazines. I presume the americans have a similar system

[trunk_munkey28]

Just from a British Pov, but the platoon sergeant carries a lot of spare ammo with him to dish out after an assault, I presume that would need to be loaded into magazines. I presume the americans have a similar system
Exactly this. Or even worse, a resupply under fire; I've seen several of them happen in Afghan. My last tour I was Sgt Maj's crew and we carried ammo cans of loaded mags to dish out should they be needed, one for one exchanges for empties. However, that was something we did as an expedient, according to Cdn doctrine you're supposed to recieve boxes of 30 rounds and re-bomb mags.

[Corrupt]

Exactly this. Or even worse, a resupply under fire; I've seen several of them happen in Afghan. My last tour I was Sgt Maj's crew and we carried ammo cans of loaded mags to dish out should they be needed, one for one exchanges for empties. However, that was something we did as an expedient, according to Cdn doctrine you're supposed to recieve boxes of 30 rounds and re-bomb mags.

Thats a good theory, but to answer the original point, yes they carry most their ammunition in magazines, but it would be foolish to think noone has ever had to refill magazines under fire.