Russia and Georgia on war footing over breakaway Abkhazia

[OB Kenobi]

Why is Saakashvili trying to commit suicide? Maybe the Russian Black Sea fleet may finally see some action. Does Georgia even have a navy besides some patrol boats?

Russia and Georgia on war footing over breakaway Abkhazia
MOSCOW (AFP) Aug 04, 2004

Russia and Georgia were on a war footing Wednesday after Moscow hinted it could resort to military action in response to a Tbilisi threat to open fire on vessels that "illegally" entered the waters of its breakaway region of Abkhazia.

The Russian defense minister said Georgia's leaders were turning into "pirates" while the country's most popular Internet news site Gazeta.ru screamed in a headline that "Russian tourists will be shot" in Georgia.

Russian ships frequently take tourists to the separatist region on the Black Sea coast in northwestern Georgia that was a top spot for summer vacations in the Soviet era.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has vowed to reunify his fractured republic since toppling the old administration in a peaceful "rose revolution" last year.

And he has since taken a stern view of Russia's involvement in his tiny and impoverished former Soviet republic that will soon be home to a key pipeline from the Caspian Sea backed by the United States.

"I gave such an order a few months ago and I am repeating it today: all the ships will be sunk, we will fire on them... as happened in the waters of Abkhazia a few days ago," Saakashvili said Tuesday before leaving for a private visit to the United States.

Georgian coast guards last Friday opened fire on a Turkish ship that entered the Black Sea waters of Abkhazia.

Abkhazia's defense chief Vyacheslav Eshba said he would do "everything I can to make sure that the ships arrive safely. If need be, we will use our army for this," ITAR-TASS reported.

Russia's Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said "these comments are starting to resemble those made by pirates and in no way correspond to international norms."

The foreign ministry in Moscow described Saakashvili's comments as "unprecedented" and warning of a looming war.

"These sort of comments are starting to show that Tbilisi is starting to lose contact with the reality in which the modern world lives," a ministry statement said.

But Saakashvili seemed unbowed and took another stab at Moscow by saying that his order "affects all the so-called Russian tourists."

The conflict between Georgia and Abkhazia, which lies between the Caucasus Mountains and the Black Sea, began with the collapse of the Soviet Union and sparked an exodus of 250,000 Georgians from the region.

A bitter war ended in August 1993 with the region of Abkhazia gaining de facto independence from the former Soviet republic.

The two sides have been holding talks with the help of a special United Nations mission and Russia, which maintains a peacekeeping force in the region.

Relations between Tbilisi and Moscow seemed to deteriorate steadily through Wednesday as a top Russian lawmaker came under fire while visiting another separatist pro-Moscow region -- South Ossetia.

Andrei Kokoshin -- who once served as Russia's security council chief and heads a parliamentary committee on relations with former Soviet republic -- said he was in the region on a bridge-building mission and came under fire from Georgian troops.

His dominant United Russia party said it may retaliate by adopting a resolution supporting South Ossetia's bid to become a part of Russia.

During his US stay, which ends August 8, Saakashvili is scheduled to meet with several US officials including US Secretary of State Colin Powell and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

[Siddar]

I think its time for Russian military to leave Geogia.

Once Russians are gone Geogia would probaly end these disputes in a few days then the Russian tourists could come back for there holidays in peace.

[Abbyy]

I think its time for Russian military to leave Geogia.

Once Russians are gone Geogia would probaly end these disputes in a few days then the Russian tourists could come back for there holidays in peace.

:)

What about Abkhazian Armed Forces?
Ossetian ones? They shouls leave too? :)

[RuSoKaR]

and don't forget Ossetians should also leave their houses! (but geniside would work here)

so US will be able to get Arzebandanian oil to the Turkey though Georgia :roll:

[Dmitri]

Screw that, I say Russia should respond back if Georgia tries to open fire on any of its crafts. How about all the damn Georgian "tourists" that already flooded Russia and especially Moscow?? May be Russia should also open fire on any of them who come illegely?!

[aartamen]

I doubt it will. Georgia has applied for NATO membership and has NATO troops on its soil. Plus half of the decent airfields of the Southern Caucasus're in Georgia. Which is the salient reason for the attention from NATO. Russian leadership would be well advised to listen to its population and not interfere. Only about 15 %, per recent polls, support direct military action. I think half of them are on this board.

[aartamen]

Why is Saakashvili trying to commit suicide?

He's not. He's a very cynical man, it looks. He's betting the Russian president doesn't have the guts to go agains a NATO protege.

[Nizark]

If conflicts break out, the first thing taken out will be those decent airfields, so to take NATO out of the situation as much as possible. Georgia VS Russia sounds like the California National Guard against the combined US armed forces.

[Milkman]

If conflicts break out, the first thing taken out will be those decent airfields, so to take NATO out of the situation as much as possible. Georgia VS Russia sounds like the California National Guard against the combined US armed forces.Attacking those NATO fields will bring nato into the conflict. Russia wouldn't want mess with all of those pissed off countries and their arsenals.

[RuSoKaR]

Milkman there are no NATO airfield in Georgia, and the conflict will be there but it will start in South Ossetia.

While NATO aka US in this matter cares only about Georgia as a land throught which oil from Arzebajan will go to Turkey :roll:

So NATO in there because of the US interest in OIL!!

Have fun building an oil empire :(

[Milkman]

Milkman there are no NATO airfield in Georgia, and the conflict will be there but it will start in South Ossetia.

While NATO aka US in this matter cares only about Georgia as a land throught which oil from Arzebajan will go to Turkey :roll:

So NATO in there because of the US interest in OIL!!

Have fun building an oil empire :(
That was uncalled for. I don't need your twisted interpretation of the matter. What I was trying to say was IF, Georgia was to join NATO soon, before conflict with Russia, what would happen then if war broke out?

[OB Kenobi]

Why is Saakashvili trying to commit suicide?

He's not. He's a very cynical man, it looks. He's betting the Russian president doesn't have the guts to go agains a NATO protege.

That much is obvious. I just think it's suicidal for Saakashvili's career. Did anyone promise him support? The US gave a "we're neutral in this, our pipeline will be built with or without you," when he visited yesterday. I think Saakashvili is going to show up on the battlefield and find that no one is interested. Big mistake pledging to recapture all the seperatist territories in the election, once that falls through the Georgians are going to turn on him when they see their economy hasn't improved.

[EvanL]

Cripple Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

[RuSoKaR]

Well he is trying to hold to his power :roll:

And also he was soo glad that he manged to do two small revolutions bloodless, that he forgot a difference between Adjaria and South Ossetia/Abhazia


pipeline will be build but still it is better to have your own man in the government...

But I really want to see how this will end p-)

[aartamen]

The betting is on.

Given North Caucasusian history it's totally unclear how the Russain military will fare in South Caucasus. It's just unlikely it will try anything rash. That's Saakashvilly's hope.

Those airfields were repaired by Turkey, btw.

Georgia is not a member of NATO, and given the facts it's not likely to become immediately one. Therefore Article 5 does not apply. And the US is not likely to do anything. But nobody knows. The principle of Nuke the Moon is in play. I love Bush.

[khukuri]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

[Abbyy]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

Russia doen't support any parts of Georgia though they asking for such support.

[khukuri]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

Russia doen't support any parts of Georgia though they asking for such support.

hm.. okay i though it was like that

But how come that so many russians (atleast on this forum) support ossetia independence. is it because of oil politics?

[ArtofPain]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

Russia doen't support any parts of Georgia though they asking for such support.

hm.. okay i though it was like that

But how come that so many russians (atleast on this forum) support ossetia independence. is it because of oil politics?
No. I support Osetia and Abkhazia becouse they do the same thing Georgia did 14 years ago.!

[perdurabo]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

Russia doen't support any parts of Georgia though they asking for such support.

hm.. okay i though it was like that

But how come that so many russians (atleast on this forum) support ossetia independence. is it because of oil politics?
No. I support Osetia and Abkhazia becouse they do the same thing Georgia did 14 years ago.!
but you dont support chechenya case...? :roll:

[Abbyy]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

Russia doen't support any parts of Georgia though they asking for such support.

hm.. okay i though it was like that

But how come that so many russians (atleast on this forum) support ossetia independence. is it because of oil politics?

I don't care about dependence or independence of Ossetia. I care about Saakashivili behavior. He definitely thinking about small victorious war for those regions with full US support after blaming Russia in different ****.

[RuSoKaR]

Those airfields were repaired by Turkey, btw.


rofl and Turkey didn't do anything when Georgia sunk turkish ship which was going to the Abhazia?

It doesn't look like that they are the ones who are repairing it ;)

Saakashville forgot that those countries will fight against Georgia, and it will take a while :roll:


btw if you compare this to the Chechnia, South Ossetia and Abhazi didn't attack other regions of Georgia, they just lived their lifes, but then tension increased :bash:

[RomanS]

i only support Russia

[aartamen]

Those airfields were repaired by Turkey, btw.


rofl and Turkey didn't do anything when Georgia sunk turkish ship which was going to the Abhazia?



AFAIK a freighter was only fired upon with MG's. Was there another incident? But the fact that the Turks are heavily involved in South Caucasus is pretty much universally known. They are all over Azerbaijan. And they definitely were fixing Georgian airfields. Not free, of course.

[OB Kenobi]

Hmm... interesting that russia is supporting a part of georgia to be seperate, when it have chechnya who also want to be seperate, but from russia itself. Cind of like the same thing.

That is the old "Freedom Fighters - Terrorists" clause. If they're for you, they are fighting for freedom, if they're against you, you know how it is.

But, I do not support the Chechens. They were given independence after humiliating Russia, then they chose to abuse that independence and invade neighboring states, backed by Al Qaeda. There was no justification for that, they wanted to start a Jihad against Russia and grab more territory for themselves.

[OB Kenobi]

SAAKASHVILI TO FOES: GEORGIA WON’T BE INTIMIDATED
Alex van Oss
Eurasia News

On a snap visit to Washington, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili issued a defiant message to governments and corporations that he says are trying to bully Tbilisi: Georgia will not be pushed around. Saakashvili also dismissed suggestions that the bloom is off Georgia’s Rose Revolution, saying the country is "progressing rapidly, like the Baltics."

During his hastily planned visit to the US capital August 5, Saakashvili held talks with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of State Colin Powell. In between meetings, he discussed recent Georgian developments at a forum sponsored by the Center for Strategic and International Studies. In recent months, Georgia has wrangled with Russia over the two separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Tbilisi has also tussled with the oil conglomerate British Petroleum after ordering a halt in construction of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, reportedly over ecological concerns.

Saakashvili insisted Georgia would not be daunted as it strives to restore its territorial integrity and to establish a sense of economic equilibrium in a country that was buffeted by violence and dysfunction for much of the past decade. "Georgia will never again be a failed state," he said.

"Georgia may be small," Saakashvili said in a wry tone. "But we do lots of things that are ... interesting and exciting."

Some recent excitement generated by Saakashvili includes a threat to sink ships, including those carrying Russian tourists, trying to enter the Abkhazian port of Sukhumi without Tbilisi’s authorization. Abkhazia established de facto independence, with Russian assistance, following a 1992-93 conflict that displaced hundreds of thousands of ethnic Georgian residents of the region.

Russian leaders have assailed Saakashvili, warning that Georgian armed action against an Abkhazia-bound vessel would constitute an act tantamount to piracy. Some Russian political analysts, meanwhile, have started to compare Saakashvili to the Bolsheviks, who carried out the Red Terror in the years after their 1917 coup in an effort to defend the Communist regime. "It looks as though the Rose Revolution is entering the ’terror phase’ that inevitably follows all revolutions," said a commentary published by the Russian daily Moskovsky Komsomolets on August 5.

Tension also grips South Ossetia, the recent scene of armed clashes. Russia and Georgia have accused each other of militarizing the region. On August 5, Georgian Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania outlined a three-point plan designed to settle the situation, featuring direct talks between Georgian and South Ossetian officials, an initiative to promote disarmament in the conflict zone, and to expand the role of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in the conflict resolution process.

The Georgian president shrugged off the personal attacks emanating from Russia, saying they will not deter him from defending Georgian national interests. "How would any other country react?" Saakashvili asked during his Washington public appearance. "It would have the right � and obligation � to protect its borders."

He went on to describe Abkhazia and South Ossetia as being run by "criminal and separatist regimes that have profited for years from corruption, protected by [Russian] ’peacekeepers’ of the former [Soviet] empire." Saakashvili suggested that influential Russian officials were seeking to foment conflict to destabilize Tbilisi. He explained that many in Moscow feared that if the Georgian economic and political overhaul succeeds it could produce similar reform impulses throughout the Caucasus and Central Asia, thus diminishing Russia’s ability to influence those regions. Georgia’s opponents are saying "now is the time to draw us into conflict," Saakashvili said. "That is their logic, and they know that I know it."

Saakashvili also touched on the Georgia-BP dispute over pipeline construction. Work was halted in late July, after Georgian officials accused BP of not obtaining the proper permits to continue with construction through the ecologically sensitive Borjomi region. Speaking with Georgian journalists in Washington, Saakashvili said he had authorized the resumption of construction after receiving assurances that BP had "taken the first steps to satisfy the demands of the Georgian side," the Itar-Tass news reported. Saakashvili added that oil would not begin flowing through the BTC pipeline until "every single one of Georgia’s legitimate demands is met."

The Georgian move to halt BTC construction reportedly caused profound displeasure in Washington, which has been a staunch backer of the pipeline project. The pipeline issue was discussed during Saakashvili’s meeting with Rumsfeld, the Georgian television channel Rustavi-2 reported.

During his public appearance, Saakashvili complained that the previous Georgian administration headed by Eduard Shevardnadze had negotiated a BTC deal detrimental to Georgian interests. "We got a horrible contract with BP, horrible," Saakashvili said. "But we want to complete this [project] on time [in early 2005] and with maximum efficiency."

"Our environment is fragile. BP has agreed to dig deeper and ensure over-the-surface protection," Saakashvili continued. He went on to say that his administration would continue to closely monitor the compliance of the construction consortium with Georgian specifications. "We won’t be bullied by BP," Saakashvili said. "Here in Washington they are pressuring us. ... We are not a banana state and we still have issues with them [BP]."

Saakashvili also confronted criticism about his domestic policies, including allegations that his administration is stifling independent media. Some Saakashvili critics have characterized the recent arrest of an opposition newspaper editor on drug-possession charges as an administration attempt to constrain a free press. The Georgian president insisted that "Georgia has no problems with press freedom."

[aartamen]

Saakashvily has severely disappointed me. He sounded pretty cool before he got power. And now he's supressing free speach and crap.

[bison3255]

Heres the difference between Ossetia/Abkhazia and Chechnya:

CHECHNYA WENT AND ATTACKED NRIGHBORING PROVINCES + BOMBED MOSCOW, OSSETIA AND ABKHAZIA DID NOTHING OF THE TYPE.

[RuSoKaR]

AFAIK a freighter was only fired upon with MG's. Was there another incident? But the fact that the Turks are heavily involved in South Caucasus is pretty much universally known. They are all over Azerbaijan. And they definitely were fixing Georgian airfields. Not free, of course.

Well they are all over those two South Caucasian countries, but they will never have any bussines in Armenia :-*$