Difference between UK vs US 5.56 rounds

[Evolv5]

Watch at about 14:40
http://www.vbs.tv/en-gb/watch/rule-britannia/afghanistan-in-the-uk-full-length

"The difference between with us and the Americans is we use a smaller caliber round, where it's just to injure....I'm not sure why'd we just want to injure etc."

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought the caliber on both the SA80 and M16/M4 were both 5.56x45 NATO.

Did he just accidentally say the wrong thing [maybe he meant to say Taliban], or was he perhaps referring to the "M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round"?

It left me puzzled.

[para944]

He is most likely reffering to the new enhanced round. The caliber is the same, but the "Enhanced Performance Round" has a different propellant and a different tip.

[Evolv5]

He is most likely reffering to the new enhanced round. The caliber is the same, but the "Enhanced Performance Round" has a different propellant and a different tip.
Aye, maybe dumbing it down for the public.
Cheers!

[Tapper]

I'm not sure why'd we just want to injure

sorry for my stupidity but aint it better to injure than just kill... what i mean is that aint it harder for enemy to take care of the wounded than just dead...

[doctor rizz]

^ That my friend, is a question that has been debated for long time. That answer is personal opinion.

[brainplay]

He's just repeating a myth that's been around for a long time with a twist on it. This is based off of the "5.56mm was designed to wound to make the enemy have to use several people to tend their casualties". After all is said and done, it's still a myth.

Also, the smaller caliber round thing. He could be talking about the different in grain. The mk262 is a 77gr. bullet while the standard SS109 that the infantry, both US and UK, use is a 62gr. bullet. But they don't really teach that kind of in depth stuff in any boot and many US Soldiers and Marines don't really know the difference either. He doesn't come off as very keen on gear knowledge so he could just be spouting off another misconception.

Real differences between the SS109 round has been touched on before in other threads. SA80 is finiky and uses a slower burning powder plus a thicker jacket. Where as the US round uses a faster burning powder and much thinner jacket. Exchanging Radway Green (UK) and Lake City (US) rounds in either rifle may cause FTE, FTF, and stove pipes. Same size round just minor differences that make a large difference.

[LineDoggie]

Only differences I ever noticed was the UK rounds left a greenish residue on the flash suppressor of My M4, and the rounds had a slightly different shape, almost MIRV like compared to M855. Never had a Stoppage with them.

[pascalywood]

sorry for my stupidity but aint it better to injure than just kill... what i mean is that aint it harder for enemy to take care of the wounded than just dead...


Im pretty sure thats the case for AP mines. A guy with an amputated feet will take ressources on a short, medium and long term. Plus its a very demoralizing weapon. But thats just my opinion.

[jcbauerca]

sorry for my stupidity but aint it better to injure than just kill... what i mean is that aint it harder for enemy to take care of the wounded than just dead...


It seems that the theory of wounding to cause degradation of unit cohesion only works with modern armies. With insurgents, I don't think unit cohesion matters because typically don't they just gather jihadist from everywhere to fight a particular action and then disband once it's done. That's what it sounds like from all the reports I have read.

I guess what I am trying to say is that they are mostly strangers so if one is wounded, he's on his own.

[brainplay]

Only differences I ever noticed was the UK rounds left a greenish residue on the flash suppressor of My M4, and the rounds had a slightly different shape, almost MIRV like compared to M855. Never had a Stoppage with them.

Don't have to take my word for it.


SUBJ/NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AMMO INFO NOTICE 041-05. IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE RELEASE OF UK (UNITED KINGDOM) 5.56MM, AMMUNITION FOR TRAINING AND COMBAT, STORAGE AND SHIPMENT TO EUROPE AND THE MIDDLE EAST// REF/A/DOC/NAVSUP P-801/01APR2005// AMPN/TW024-AA-ORD-010 1 APRIL 2005// POC/xxxx xxxxx/GS-11/-/TEL:grin:SN 430-xxxx/TEL:717 605-xxxx /TEL:FAX 430- Xxxx/EMAIL:xxxxxx@NALC.NAVY.MIL//

RMKS/LAST AIN XMITTED 121940ZMAY05

PAGE 02 RULSAMB1850 UNCLAS

REQUEST FOLLOWING INFORMATION BE GIVEN THE WIDEST DISSEMINATION. TO MEET A CRITICAL SHORTAGE OF 5.56MM AMMUNITION, THE ARMY HAS PURCHASED UNITED KINGDOM 5.56MM AMMUNITION, THAT WERE ALL PRODUCED BETWEEN 1997-2001 AND ARE THE UK'S NATO STANDARDIZED 5.56MM AMMUNTION. THERE ARE THREE UK CONFIGURATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED AS INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THREE US CONFIGURATIONS. THE CONFIGURATIONS ARE SUMMARIZED BELOW:

UK- CTG. 5.56MM BALL, L2A2,
CARTON PACK - NSN 1305-99-978-3163 AZ42

UK- CTG. 5.56MM BALL, L2A2,
BANDOLEER - NSN 1305-99-978-3427 AZ40

UK- CTG. 5.56MM CLIPPED, 4 BALL/1 TRACER L2A2/L1A2,
BANDOLEER - NSN 1305-99-978-3426 AZ41

THE RECIPIENTS WILL PRIORITIZE THESE MUNITIONS TO BE ISSUED / USED FIRST. EACH OF THE THREE UK 5.56MM CONFIGURATIONS WAS COMPARED AGAINST THE CORRESPONDING US 5.56MM CONFIGURATION FOR PERFORMANCE, SAFETY, AND RELIABILITY BY THE SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS AT ARDEC TO ASSURE INTERCHANGEABILITY. BASED ON THIS REVIEW IT WAS DETERMINED THAT ALL THE REQUIREMENTS, STATED BY THE UK AND NATO SPECS, WERE MET AND THAT THE ONLY CRITICAL ISSUE IDENTIFIED WAS A UK FINDING THAT STATED A PROBLEM WITH FAILURE TO CYCLE MALFUNCTIONS EXPERIENCED WITH CARBINE, 5.56MM, M4 (1005-01-231-0973) RIFLES DUE TO DIFFERENCE IN RIFLE DESIGN BETWEEN THE M16A2 5.56MM RIFLE AND M4 5.56MM CARBINE. UK AMMUNITION SHALL NOT BE USED IN THE M4. THIS AMMUNITION WAS RELEASED FOR FULL USE IN THE M16A2 RIFLE AND M249 SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON (SAW) AND IS ACCEPTABLE FOR USE IN WEAPON ZEROING AND QUALIFICATION FOR THE M16A2 AND THE M249. THE UK 5.56MM AMMUNITION IS A BALLISTIC MATCH FOR THE 5.56MM: M855, BALL ROUND (THE UK AMMUNITION DOES NOT HAVE A GREEN TIP, BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH THE M193, 5.56MM BALL ROUND). ONCE REMOVED FROM THE PACKAGING THE UK 5.56MM AMMUNITION IS DISTINGUISHABLE FROM U.S. MADE 5.56MM AMMUNITION BY THE HEAD STAMP, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH THE NOMENCLATURE L1A2 FOR THE TRACER CARTRIDGE AND L2A2 FOR THE BALL CARTRIDGE, THE LETTERS RG, DENOTING THE MANUFACTURER, AND A RED PROJECTILE TIP ON THE TRACER CARTRIDGE. THIS AMMUNITION WILL COME PACKAGED IN THE U.K. STANDARD PACKAGE (METAL CAN), WHICH IS SIMILAR TO THE U.S. STANDARD AMMUNITION PACK FOR 5.56MM AMMUNITION. IT WILL BE MARKED WITH THE UK STANDARD MARKINGS AND NOMENCLATURE, INCLUDING THE NATO STANDARDIZATION SYMBOL "CLOVER LEAF.� THE US ASSETS WILL BE TRACKED BY THE UK NSNS AND THE NSNS WILL BE TRACKED BY THE ASSIGNED PSEUDO U.S. DODACS.

FIRING UK AMMUNITION WILL INCREASE THE FREQUENCY OF WEAPON CLEANING REQUIRED. ANY MALFUNCTION/PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED WITH THIS AMMUNITION SHOULD BE REPORTED THROUGH NORMAL AMMUNITION REPORTING CHANNELS.// Original thread was at the 10-8 forums along with the pdf url. The thread is now gone so I can't post the source anymore. If anyone find a source link I would appreciate it. For archival purposes, here's the original thread (dead) where the info was first posted. http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=41472&an=0&page=0#41472

[B. Traven]

"UK AMMUNITION SHALL NOT BE USED IN THE M4."

so much for logistical commonality and pick up your ally's ammo...

[LineDoggie]

All I can tell you is I had no US M855 in Kuwait, my unit was Issued British 5.56 Rifle on stripper clips & 7.62 link 4-1 in October 2004. Over the next Year I used the British Ammo exclusively and had no problems from a Standard M4. When the Line platoons received Lake City we got their British and Used it. Never had a Jam, and I did use my weapon with the express desire to kill someone on several occasions. And during periodic practice hit my targets with no issues. Came in nifty waterproof Nylon Bandoleers with Velcro closing marked Remploy?

[HardThunder]

All I can tell you is I had no US M855 in Kuwait, my unit was Issued British 5.56 Rifle on stripper clips & 7.62 link 4-1 in October 2004. Over the next Year I used the British Ammo exclusively and had no problems from a Standard M4. When the Line platoons received Lake City we got their British and Used it. Never had a Jam, and I did use my weapon with the express desire to kill someone on several occasions. And during periodic practice hit my targets with no issues. Came in nifty waterproof Nylon Bandoleers with Velcro closing marked Remploy?

Interesting.
So you are not, or did not work in a line unit
When the Line platoons received Lake City we got their British and Used it, but it seems the line units also used it.

I can recall the issue with the ammo for the M-16 back in the late 60s, and early 70s. The Army used extruded power, and Stoner had designed the ammo to use ball powder. Sounds to me like the Brit 62gr ammo had some performance issues that the Ammo pukes over inflated.

[KillerBD]

"UK AMMUNITION SHALL NOT BE USED IN THE M4."

so much for logistical commonality and pick up your ally's ammo...

x2, my thoughts as well... Kinda figured that went hand in hand with the whole NATO thingy... Logistics, and common procedures so our forces can work together as cohesive units easier against a common threat.

[LineDoggie]

Interesting.
So you are not, or did not work in a line unit , but it seems the line units also used it.

I can recall the issue with the ammo for the M-16 back in the late 60s, and early 70s. The Army used extruded power, and Stoner had designed the ammo to use ball powder. Sounds to me like the Brit 62gr ammo had some performance issues that the Ammo pukes over inflated.


Banshee Company 1st Bn, 69th Infantry Regiment.

I was sent to the HQ section to keep our 10 ancient M2HB's (which were remanufactured from Watercooled. 50's) up and running and generally do Armorer duties. I mounted M203s and Made Leaf sights to fit the RAS when the Issue QD kits/sights never arrived. I mounted the scopes rings mounts on our M14's, and Boresighted them.

In Iraq I ran the BDOC for CJ-SOTF at RPC, and Patrolled Radwiniya. Once we returned to the Bn. I ran a 12 man Patrol section every night through al-Ameriyah, Jihad, Mansour, Muhallas and Route Irish. Our 2nd Plt was attached to a 256 Armor company so we were short 39 Men and took up the slack with my 12. My Crew were the primary Robot crew for IED confirmation, checking dozens of suspicious items ,we performed Full Out Raids, Cordon and Knocks, Snap TCP's, Counter Sniper, Surveilance, Route clearance, etc. I earned My CIB.

[Dave242]

Came in nifty waterproof Nylon Bandoleers with Velcro closing marked Remploy?

Check out http://www.remploy.co.uk/

Dave

[HardThunder]

Linedoggie thanks for the info. 11B30E20? Happy you made it back. Hope all is well, and sound.

[jango]

"UK AMMUNITION SHALL NOT BE USED IN THE M4."

so much for logistical commonality and pick up your ally's ammo... Then the british SAS better start throwing rocks !!!!

[LineDoggie]

Then the british SAS better start throwing rocks !!!!
Dont they use a Diemaco C8SFW with a 15" tube & different rifling?

[Corrupt]

Dont they use a Diemaco C8SFW with a 15" tube & different rifling?

Quick google says, and as far as I'm aware this is fairly accurate.


C8 SFW Carbine (L119A1)
The Canadian clone of the US M4, the Diemaco C8 SFW (Special Forces Weapon), has been used by the Regiment since the late 90s, taking over the role of primary assault rifle from the venerable M16.

[Scorchio]

Dont they use a Diemaco C8SFW with a 15" tube & different rifling?

AFAIK the UK has both 15/16-inch heavy barrel and 10-inch short barrel upper receivers for the C8.

No idea what UKSF are using, but there is plenty of media showing both in use across other L119 users such as PFPL and RMP.

[big_les]

There is some truth in what the chap was saying - but only some. The L2A2 ball round is a modification of the L2A1 intended to *prevent* the bonus fragmentation effect of the original 5.56 bullets, achieved by thickening the jacket. Rumour has it that this was done with Northern Ireland in mind (accusations of Dum-Dum use are a feature of that conflict) but it may be simply a sop to the Swiss and other European countries that are nervy about 'exploding' bullets.

Also the original FMJ military ball bullet was designed by Theodore Kocher, one of whose concerns was to create a bullet that wouldn't cause 'unnecessary suffering' (Hague convention wording).

Through a process of Chinese Whispers, we've ended up with a serving soldier who actually thinks that the bullets he fires are 'smaller' than those of his main ally and were specifically designed only to wound. Neither is true, of course.

[ayanami_tard]

wait i thought M4 and M16A2 has similar(though shorter) barrel

how come one round that is safe to shoot in M16A2 cannot be used in M4?

[Royal]

No idea what UKSF are using, but there is plenty of media showing both in use across other L119 users such as PFPL and RMP.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/RoyalPhoto/4030675.jpghttp://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/RoyalPhoto/4030718.jpg

I remember problems with our M16A1s failing to cycle properly in the late 80s using RG ammo.

[FunYun]

Most European countries that use 5.56mm do not use the same 5.56mm ammo that we do. It has been modified to not fragment, as their interpretation of the Hague convention forbids it.

[HardThunder]

wait i thought M4 and M16A2 has similar(though shorter) barrel

how come one round that is safe to shoot in M16A2 cannot be used in M4?

It is not as much a question of safe, as it being effective. I hand load ammo, and make rounds that work for each gun. The M-16 was made for a 55 grain bullet, and that is all you could get for a long time. The M-16A1 was the same, the M-16A2 was made for the NATO standard 62 Grain.

Then you have barrel length. Add to that the barrel twist. The powered and bullet need to be matched for each gun. M-16/M-4 also has a gas tube , so fowling is also an issue. The US Army likes Ball powder, others like Extruded powder.

[REMOV]

AFAIK the UK has both 15/16-inch heavy barrel and 10-inch short barrel upper receivers for the C8. No idea what UKSF are using, but there is plenty of media showing both in use across other L119 users such as PFPL and RMP.What is the designation of the short barreled Colt Canada carbine in British service - L119A2?

[Scorchio]

I don't know that there is one.

There was something about C8s in one of the KiT magazines that de&s produce for the various bolt-stranglers in the Armed Forces and civvy MoD, that suggested that the upper receiver, barrel and all that was just swapped between the long and short length. So logically, the lower receivers on either carbine will be stamped L119A1.

Small-arms were never my area though, and I retired some years ago, so don't take my word for it.

IIRC the online, .pdf versions of KiT are on one of the publicly accessible parts of armynet. I'll see if I can find the issue that mentions the C8.

[Royal]

I don't know that there is one.

The 10" barrel had been around for a good few years when I got out in 2006 and I don't remember any mention of an L119A2.

[Scorchio]

IIRC the online, .pdf versions of KiT are on one of the publicly accessible parts of armynet. I'll see if I can find the issue that mentions the C8.

Found it in Issue 61 (Autumn 2007), Page 29 (http://www2.armynet.mod.uk/linkedfilesANOpen/armysafety/kit61_hi_res.pdf):



C8 Assault Rifle

The L119A1, C8 is a versatile 5.56mm assault rifle developed for the Special Forces with a range of 600m. It can also be assembled with a short barrelled upper receiver to make the Carbine which can be used at up to 300m range. When fitted with a Picatinny rail hand guard it can be adapted for various uses with the addition of lasers, lights UGLs, down grips, in fact almost anything with a picatinny fitment. It is usually used in conjunction with the ACOG 4x optical sight or EoTech holographic sight.
The C8's explicitly designated L119A1 but it makes no real distinction between the designation for the short and long barrelled rifles, despite detailing both.

It's possible that the rifles would be documented as 'L119A1' and 'L119A1 Carbine' respectively, in a similar manner to how the original Browning pistol and those fitted improved safety were differentiated as 'L9A1' and 'L9A1 DS'.