One lonely 18X sf pursuer

[Registration Information]

I am 26, graduated with a degree, and I have been working out for 6 months. I can do 105 pushups, and over a 100 situps each before the 2 minute time limit. I can do 2 miles in 14:30 and the 5 mile run in 39 minutes. Am I physically prepared for this contract? Also by taking the contract will I properly learn land navigation before I am expected to apply it in assessment? Yo ShooterB and anyone else whos feedback is important ( meaning people who have actually been through that hell), can you guys help me out with this...
Thanks amigos

[Mortimer]

i am not in the SF but...
have you tried doing the 2miles with something that could simulate webbing, boots, and a rifle?

i don't know about the USSF but in Aussie land that SF barrier test gets you to do a run in full combat gear, something like 13min to run 2 miles.

but i'd say with the pushups and sit ups your doing great, maybe do pull ups as well?

[James]

I am 26, graduated with a degree, and I have been working out for 6 months. I can do 105 pushups, and over a 100 situps each before the 2 minute time limit. I can do 2 miles in 14:30 and the 5 mile run in 39 minutes. Am I physically prepared for this contract? Also by taking the contract will I properly learn land navigation before I am expected to apply it in assessment? Yo ShooterB and anyone else whos feedback is important ( meaning people who have actually been through that hell), can you guys help me out with this...
Thanks amigos

Sounds like you're in pretty decent shape. I was a USMC grunt, but I did some research about this a year and a half ago, as I was having some thoughts that I might go Army for SF. If I recall, the program they put you through is recruit training, infantry school, airborne school, then the SF Q-course. If Army infantry school is anything like USMC SOI, you will learn how to navigate with a map and compass. That said, I was (as stated) a USMC grunt, not Army SF.

Whatever route you choose, best of luck.

[Registration Information]

James thanks man. I just knocked off 120 pushups in 2 minutes. Mortimer, I can do 13 pullups with palms facing in. So you're saying my 14:30 for 2 miles needs to be worked on. I have to use the threadmill more often. I have heard people doing the 2 miles in under 12 minutes which just leaves me shocked.

[ibstolidude]

Contact regular army recruiter I would guess they can help you out...the SF recruiters can (atleast used to) provide you a booklet on the things to do to prep for SFAS to include stretched, excercises, tips & how to's, and what/how to physically prepare..

[warchild1/27scout]

info i was an army grunt and it sounds like your pushups and stuff are better than most recruits going in. you should have a jump on most other recruits.i don't want to sound like a cliche but when you get to the tougher training in sf it will be your mental toughness that gets you through it.and it sounds like you are intelligent enough. the guys i knew that were in sf always came across like they were exceptionally smart, very quick on thier feet, and thier common sense was just very good. i wanted to go sf and i considered myself pretty intellegent but when it came to common sense i was about as sharp as a marble.those guys seemed like they picked up stuff real quick.very,very,sharp. thats just my opinion. good luck and NEVER give up until they kick you out :)

[Registration Information]

Appreciate the tip Warchild. ibstolidude yes I just found a pdf file on the preparation booklet. I do need to work on my 2 mile run time. From all the running I am down to 143 pounds, virtually just muscle and bone. Has anyone heard how bad sleep deprivation is in SFAS?

[Seraphim]

Appreciate the tip Warchild. ibstolidude yes I just found a pdf file on the preparation booklet. I do need to work on my 2 mile run time. From all the running I am down to 143 pounds, virtually just muscle and bone. Has anyone heard how bad sleep deprivation is in SFAS?

Did you get my PM?

[Registration Information]

yup, you got one going your way

[burnt by the sun]

first off... don't go sounding like you already have it beat. get cocky and the Sf guys will have a hay day with you. and the aussie is right... you maybe be able to run but lets see you do in full combat gear hot shot. not to mention the mental stress they push on you. you my be built like arnold but if you get pussy footed and can't act in battle you're ****in gone my friend. so first off i say get rid of the cockiness.

[Registration Information]

But I am just that damn good! ;)

[18C4V]

first off... don't go sounding like you already have it beat. get cocky and the Sf guys will have a hay day with you. and the aussie is right... you maybe be able to run but lets see you do in full combat gear hot shot. not to mention the mental stress they push on you. you my be built like arnold but if you get pussy footed and can't act in battle you're f*** gone my friend. so first off i say get rid of the cockiness.

True,
Don't be cocky. A lot of guys fail SOPC and SFAS. You could be one of them.

[Registration Information]

Well my current running pace for 2 miles sucks. 18C3V what kind of pace should I be looking for prior to enlisting?

[burnt by the sun]

look dip ****... first things first. just focus on getting in and being a good infantry soldier. try being the best soldier. by the sounds of it you just want to be a bad ass SF guy. get your head out of your ass. its not an advanture. its real and it can get real risky. you **** up once and thats the end of the story kiddo. sounds like you'd be better off in AF. theres no room for hot shots in SF. someone help geh through to this knuckle head.

[18C4V]

Your current run time is good to go for OSUT and Airborne school. The 5 mile run standard is a 9 min mile. As for SOPC/SFAS, you must be in the best shape possible. Your run and ruck times may decrease due to injuries, lack of food, lack of sleep, etc.

Burnt by the sun,
Reading Registration's post, he's going to try out for the 18X program.

[Seraphim]

look dip ****... first things first. just focus on getting in and being a good infantry soldier. try being the best soldier. by the sounds of it you just want to be a bad ass SF guy. get your head out of your ass. its not an advanture. its real and it can get real risky. you f*** up once and thats the end of the story kiddo. sounds like you'd be better off in AF. theres no room for hot shots in SF. someone help geh through to this knuckle head.

Settle now...

Registration Information...read "The Coveted Black and Gold: A Daily Journey Through the U.S. Army Ranger School Experience "

He talks about how much sleep and food he gets in it. At least it will give you a small idea of what you might go through.

[Yeti]

"i don't know about the USSF but in Aussie land that SF barrier test gets you to do a run in full combat gear, something like 13min to run 2 miles"

My BS Flag is up.. 6.5 minute miles in full combat gear..as an entrance test?? Nice try..

[Royal]

My BS Flag is up.. 6.5 minute miles in full combat gear..as an entrance test?? Nice try..

As a part of entrance tests for any UKSF or other 'high speed' units expect old style CFT's (8 miles in full kit) to 13 miles daily for the 'new Rural Ops CFT'.

[Argyll]

Why on earth do some people assume that just because they can run,like the wind,pull 10 x their body weight,snort lead balls weighing a kilo through their nostrils,that they will make the grade,I have seen great athletes in my service,but they couldn't soldier worth a Fu*k!.
Being in great shape helps,for sure,but being mature and mentally fit is more important,I've seen posts at SOCNET,where guys all claim to be superfit,and they usually get given good advice from the regulars there.
Being an bog standard soldier is hard enough,the training regime is tough,physically and mentally,and a lot of guys fail to make the grade,being able to Tab for 30km with 120lb on your back,move into a OP,and stay for 5 days sleeping for 2-4 hrs a day,pissing and ****ting in a poly bag in front of your opos,with all your bone screaming at you,that this is wrong,......bug out after being compramised at the double,under fire,being able to put down effective fire,to allow a succesful extraction,whilst wondering,does the Patrol Commander know what the fu*k he's doing,with the webbing burns on your back bleeding ,and after getting back to base,kit check,clean up,debriefed,and ready to do it all again in 24-48 hours!.........now double that work rate for a SOF soldier!!
I think a lot of hopefulls who post here will not make the grade,they seem to think it as being glamourous being SOF,it's not its deadly serious,and it ain't no cake walk!!!

[Scrim]

My crystal ball tells me that thanks to this bull****e 18X program, the Army is going to have a whole bunch of SF wannabe cooks.

[Argyll]

My view is that it lowers the perception of "Special Forces"
During the early years ,60's ,70's and even the early 80's,when you met someone said they were "Special Forces",or you could see they were SF,then you had a lot of respect for them,being "tabbed",and all they went through,and most of them seemed to have had a good deal of "soldiering" behind them,which meant you felt comfortable with them.
But todays SF standrds seems to be considerably lower,and as much as I'll get flamed(whats new)for this,todays SF don't seem to have that Auora of mysticism about them,they are mass produced,and I would say that the Royal Marines,and the Parachute Regiment,are every bit as good as todays standard of US SF,excluding SFOD-Delta,SEAL's,and DEVGRU,of whom I'd band with the SAS/SBS....I know the current SF guys will say total ****,but hey this is my opinion,nobody elses.. ......at the moment!,Hell I'm sure some of the 75th Ranger regiment,are just as good as the SF guys.
When something is mass produced you tend to loose quality,but when you have limited editions,you know you have that qaulity!!
to the "Usual Suspect".........as I said ,this is just my opinion,you don't have to like it ,as I don't have to like yours!!You all need to find some peace within yourself,and stop being so obnoxious when someones opinion differs from yours!!Its called life........get on with it!


Registration Info.............Good luck,you're gonna need it ,and some!!!

[JKD]

Um, it was my impression that they hadn't lowered SF selection or training standards. They are now just taking guys off the street.

I could be wrong though

[Argyll]

Yeah in the standards I should be more clearer,I belive the selection for serving soldiers will be the same,but right off the streets....does seem to indicate lower standards,how on earth can some 18 year old kid fresh out of school,have the same apttitude,and attitude of a 5 year veteran of the 75th ranger regiment!!?

[JKD]

Well I'm not an expert, but if he's not up to it he should wash out right? And I think he'll also go through something like 2 years of training first. And from what I understand SF takes anybody from the Army from any MOS, not just the Rangers.
Again, I could be wrong

[burnt by the sun]

I think a lot of hopefulls who post here will not make the grade,they seem to think it as being glamourous being SOF,it's not its deadly serious,and it ain't no cake walk!!!

thank you. thats what i've been telling him. not a whole lotta people make it. if they did... we'd have SF guys out the ass... and thats not what the government wants. and it seems like the govn. is trying to produce SF soliders rather than let them develope in teh regular army. most kids that try out for SF can't even hack it in the regualr army. which is all the more why i doubt this guy will even make it through the first selection phase.

[SFGuy]

Yeah in the standards I should be more clearer,I belive the selection for serving soldiers will be the same,but right off the streets....does seem to indicate lower standards,how on earth can some 18 year old kid fresh out of school,have the same apttitude,and attitude of a 5 year veteran of the 75th ranger regiment!!?

Those who come 'right off the streets" -vs- those who are currently "Active Duty" must meet the same requirements/standards.

It's a long road and difficult however, it can be accomplished and has been.

[Argyll]

Is there a greater dropout rate amongst the civvies compared to regulars?

[Haiw]

argyll, the possibility for civilians to apply for SF doesnt mean that the SF becomes a 'lesser' unit. you have to remember, they have to go trough the EXACT same training as the army guys... thus, they gotta have the same 'edge' to hack it trough...and yes, more civies than army guys drop out (at least, thats the way it is here in the netherlands, i dont know how the civies do in the us compared to the army guys)

[Registration Information]

I totally disagree on the comments made that an off the street recruit will have the standards lowered for him in order to get into SF. If the recruits know anything more than an active soldier, it is what SF is all about. They are put through a 2+year program to develop proper NCO skills so if they do make it , it is well earned but no more or no less than anyone else. The Sf community needs soldiers like that in an A team as well as soldiers who share their expertise from previous units such as the Rangers. I know the path I have chosen is difficult but at the same time I will make every effort to make sure I succeed, even if people like you are trying to tell me I can not do it. I have researched this long and hard and know the consequences for someone who fails but the statement "being mentally prepared" means that you must not surround yourself around the negatively of others who almost want you to fail. It seems to me that a few people may in fact be jealous that this contract exists today and not when they were serving, which is why they bad mouth instead of providing useful tips.
Tane Angle & SF Guy seems to be some the guys here who want to help.

[California Joe]

The guy that started this thread didn't come across as an asshead to me. Just a guy looking for information.

I have a friend that was a Vietnam era SEAL, Team 2. He was a Frogman that was part of the crew converted in the early 60's. Their training must have been incredibly tough but was it as SMART as modern methods? Do the SF guys get what I mean? Tougher doesn't necessarily mean better results does it? A lot of physical conditioning used in the old days has been found to be detrimental to actual physical condition. Like eating ****loads of salt tabs etc....

[Scrim]

Ill say one good thing about the 18x program, its got to be a great recruiting tool. Im sure the dropout rate is huge, then once you drop out the Army can put you wherever the hell it wants. I was a USMC recruiter for a while and the Navy recruiter next door would do the same **** with the Navy nuclear program. He would sign everyone up for it with promises of how much money you could make with that training blah blah blah. Hardly anyone he signed would pass the course, then the Navy would send them off to swab decks somewhere.
If the 18x program had been around when I was 18, hell I might have even joined the Army.

[Registration Information]

Yes the program is a tool to strengthen up either their infantry and for those who make it, SF.

[gaz]

As I understand it this isn't the first time the US Army has done this type of thing. I believe there were 18X troops (Although they weren't called that then) in Vietnam and they performed admirably.

[GLax]

13 minutes in full gear? thats disgusting (if true) but a good 2 mile is 13 flat and a real good 2 mile is 12 flat, an olympic runner will do it in 10 but they tend to be tall and skinny and not what you would call "Army material"... about the treadmill, forget it, it keeps you at a consistent comfortable pace, you never really push yourself because your body is worried about falling off if it starts going fast and will convince your brain your going to fast. you need to run at a 'i feel like i'm dying' pace i'd just stick to running outside if i were you. am i in any position to give you this advise? why yes i am, i was a long distance runner for my school and my coach is a runner on the 'legends' team for western New York, this is the workout he gave us and he got me down from a 15 minute 2 mile to a 12:30, he knows his stuff...

[Argyll]

R.I,
I'm certainly not jealous,if that's what you're implying,I'm also from the UK,so your SF selection means nothing to me ,the point I was making is that it's not about being fit,it was about all the other stuff,and then some,and if you looked a little closer I also wished you good luck,and I meant it!But you have to remember that the failure rate for SF selection is around 80%,that's not being negative, that unfortunately is fact!
I know there are a few "real deals" who have posted here lately,they'll be able to give you a lot more info!
Out of your class some 30-50% will wash out in the 1st week!!In UKSF selection,during that 1st week,the dropout rate is higher!

[Royal]

13 minutes in full gear? thats disgusting (if true)

RTFI - or read my post - I said 13 miles not 13 minutes. You'll do bugger all running less than 8 miles in SF selection.

BTW. Over here there is a worry over the problem of 'creeping excellence' in SF and other areas. Basiclly guys are doing time on the ground, then coming back to the training cadres and upping the standards to 'break' candidates. There is now a real worry that able candidates are being binned by injury or creeping excellence. With the manning shortfalls that we have, this is being looked at. A lowering of standards, no. Better training regimes, yes.

[ibstolidude]

REGISTRATION info -

glad that you were able to find the prep booklet..

it sounds like you have made you decision to go...my suggestion is the same for any military school.course:
- keep your yap shut, DO NOT go telling everyone about how you read it done, or someguy once told you, or you saw it in a movie...just stay quiet and show people what you know - just as you did here, if someone has a question they will ask for an answer.
- never quit anything - from a difficult question on a written test, to a rope climb...make someone tell you stop...any time you fail ask what to do better next time or how to improve (and actually listen).
- never be the first to sit or the last to stand - never be the first one to rest or the last one up and moving...always be the first guy to help unloading the gear, but make no issue of it...people wil notice on their own... don't be that guy that is always in the front for chow, last to help on details, doing enough just to get by.
- small group dynamics may be very different from what you see in the civilian world...just like a bunch of brothers trapped in a room together it gets heated and ugly; the way to lessen that is everyone respects each other, offers the help to another that they themselves will oneday seek, keep aware that eveyone is sucking **** so don't bitch and whine, don't slack in what you do because someone else will need to pick up your slack.

good luck!

[GLax]

my fault Royal, i apologize

[Royal]

No worries :lol:

But just to rub it in, attention to detail is one of the many things you will need to pass the 18x programme...

[NcDeuce]

most kids that try out for SF can't even hack it in the regualr army.

I think it's more the ones that WANT to be in SF that can't hack it in the regular army. The ones TRYING out are usually more than wannabes, lol. But you basically hit the nail on the head! woot

[Jack Mehoff]

My view is that it lowers the perception of "Special Forces"
During the early years ,60's ,70's and even the early 80's,when you met someone said they were "Special Forces",or you could see they were SF,then you had a lot of respect for them,being "tabbed",and all they went through,and most of them seemed to have had a good deal of "soldiering" behind them,which meant you felt comfortable with them.
But todays SF standrds seems to be considerably lower,and as much as I'll get flamed(whats new)for this,todays SF don't seem to have that Auora of mysticism about them,they are mass produced,and I would say that the Royal Marines,and the Parachute Regiment,are every bit as good as todays standard of US SF,excluding SFOD-Delta,SEAL's,and DEVGRU,of whom I'd band with the SAS/SBS....I know the current SF guys will say total ****,but hey this is my opinion,nobody elses.. ......at the moment!,Hell I'm sure some of the 75th Ranger regiment,are just as good as the SF guys.
When something is mass produced you tend to loose quality,but when you have limited editions,you know you have that qaulity!!
to the "Usual Suspect".........as I said ,this is just my opinion,you don't have to like it ,as I don't have to like yours!!You all need to find some peace within yourself,and stop being so obnoxious when someones opinion differs from yours!!Its called life........get on with it!


Registration Info.............Good luck,you're gonna need it ,and some!!!



British SBS is only as good as U.S. MEU(Marine Expedition Unit). Don't flame me now, it's only my PERSONSAL OPINION

[Ratamacue]

Yeah, no matter what dude, you're going to end up getting flamed for that. ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

When something is mass produced you tend to loose quality,but when you have limited editions,you know you have that qaulity!!




^^^^Some people here should go and take elementary math

For example: country A has an army total of 1000 men, 200 men are special forces. Country B has an army total of 500 men, 150 men are special forces.

A country:200/1000=20% men of A army is special forces
B country :150/500=30% men of B country is special forces

In conclusion, you will have a much better chance to become special forces if you join B country eventhough they have less special forces personnel.

You probably ask why is this have anything to do with US military, right? Well, take US's special operation forces and divide that by 1.5 million VOLUNTEER ACTIVE duty servicemembers PLUS 500,000 more active reserve components

[Apogee]

Jack -
From what I understand, the SBS and an MEU are not even comparable. Thats like comparing a heavy bridage to delta force. They have such different missions and are completly different sizes. Just my thoughts.

[Jack Mehoff]

Jack -
From what I understand, the SBS and an MEU are not even comparable. Thats like comparing a heavy bridage to delta force. They have such different missions and are completly different sizes. Just my thoughts.
No difference than comparing U.S. SF to Brits' Royal Marine Reg or Parachute Reg


My view is that it lowers the perception of "Special Forces"
During the early years ,60's ,70's and even the early 80's,when you met someone said they were "Special Forces",or you could see they were SF,then you had a lot of respect for them,being "tabbed",and all they went through,and most of them seemed to have had a good deal of "soldiering" behind them,which meant you felt comfortable with them.
But todays SF standrds seems to be considerably lower,and as much as I'll get flamed(whats new)for this,todays SF don't seem to have that Auora of mysticism about them,they are mass produced,and I would say that the Royal Marines,and the Parachute Regiment,are every bit as good as todays standard of US SF,excluding SFOD-Delta,SEAL's,and DEVGRU,of whom I'd band with the SAS/SBS....I know the current SF guys will say total ****,but hey this is my opinion,nobody elses.. ......at the moment!,Hell I'm sure some of the 75th Ranger regiment,are just as good as the SF guys.
When something is mass produced you tend to loose quality,but when you have limited editions,you know you have that qaulity!!
to the "Usual Suspect".........as I said ,this is just my opinion,you don't have to like it ,as I don't have to like yours!!You all need to find some peace within yourself,and stop being so obnoxious when someones opinion differs from yours!!Its called life........get on with it!


Registration Info.............Good luck,you're gonna need it ,and some!!!

[Haiw]

No difference than comparing U.S. SF to Brits' Royal Marine Reg or Parachute Reg
which is a screwy comparisson as well :)

[Argyll]

Blimey,this took a while to resurrect,were you pretty bored Jack?

Perhaps it is taken out of context,what would you compare US SF to then,Perhaps I should've said RM-BPG,or Pathfinders(Para's).
Their both pretty unique in their own ways,and although not classed as SF,their training and selection is every bit as hard,and many from these 2 units progress into SAS/SBS.

Actually if you read what I said,I said it was the STANDARDS that I compared them to!! :D

SBS=USMC MEU(SOC) rofl yeah right!!
At the time of posting Jack ,I was very unfamiliar with the 18X program,and it seemed a wrong way to go,but apparently this is a 2+ year program,what it looked like was John Doe coming off the street,and achieving the Rank of SGT without having,worked his way through,having that experience.
I'm sure someone said here already that the Q course(?)to get into it you had to have the Rank of SGT,and above whic ,points to experienced soldiers!!I wonder how a 12 year vet of SF would view a green 18x graduate,if both had the same rank?

I'd be interested in what you'd compare the Army SF to in relation to UK SF?

[96B]

A 12 year vet of SF would most certainly have a rank higher than E-5 Sergeant especially if he had spent all of that time actually in SF. The US military is much larger than that of the UK. I do not know the specific manpower of their military but because ours is much bigger, we can have more SF and SOF troops and it still be possible that in the UK the ratio of SF to non-SF troops is higher.

Personally I believe that units lose their "aura and mysticism" when there is a TV show made about them and THEY participate in it when they are supposed to be a shadowy unit (see SAS: Are you Tough Enough on OLN). It would be like some show here made where your average citizen could go through a mock Delta selection course and have real Delta guys on the show. I never did understand why the SAS has so much publicity (not that its operators like it at all) because all one needs to do is travel to the local Barnes and Noble. There you will find many books filled with actual pictures of these guys, whereas with Delta there may be one or two books that have a few pictures but arent confirmed that its them. Units like that are supposed to be secret so that their enemies do not know their specific capabilities.

[Argyll]

yeah I'd hope so too,but in UK SF sometimes its not uncommon to stay the same rank for many many years,it just depends on the availablity of ranks above SGT.
here in the UK the next stage up is C/SGT,S/GT(colour/Staff),and the're usually Quartermasters,the rank structure is very different from the US.
I guess the idea would be to get to Sgt Maj,providing there were spaces for such ranks within the Unit,the way it works in the UK is that there can't be 300+Sgts in one unit,though in saying that the SAS Trooper rank is equivalent to an Infantry Sgt in Stature,maybe Royal can elaborate a bit more on this,I've been out now for 15 years!!

[Argyll]

Yeah that's why the SBS are considere among many to be better than SAS because of their Anonymity!!
Most of the guys in SAS are you tough enough are all former SAS staff,no current serving member would show his face on TV,many are very against press coverage of Operations,such as Afghanistan,and Iraq.
But the CAG?DEVGRU guys are the same,try to keep anonymity as much as possible,but the Regular SF are not seen as so high profile,and that's why there are so many pics here in the forums,it seems to be pretty accepted as showing the human side to SOF

[Jack Mehoff]

SBS=USMC MEU(SOC) rofl yeah right!!
At the time of posting Jack ,I was very unfamiliar with the 18X program,and it seemed a wrong way to go,but apparently this is a 2+ year program,what it looked like was John Doe coming off the street,and achieving the Rank of SGT without having,worked his way through,having that experience.


rofl John Doe off the street? Sure, if he been in for two years, completed basic training, AIT, airborne school, E-4 or better. Never in my life i've seen anybody achieve the E-5 status within 2 years period they been in the military. I guess my four years in the regular Army taught me something.

You know something? opinions are great but when don't know what you are talking about then might as well flush your opinions down the toilet.

[Argyll]

Jack,
I thought the 18x program was all about taking John Doe from civvy life and making him an SF guy within 2 years?
Which I thought ,correct me if I'm wrong that an A-Team are are Sgts.1st Class.,at the lowest end of the spectrum?

I'm not being funny here,can you explain the E system and how it works,so's I can figure out what you're going on about please?
Is it related to service time,experience ,etc or what?

[96B]

Army:
E1-Private
E2-Private(2)
E3-Private First Class
E4-Specialist/Corporal
E5-Sergeant
E6-Staff Sergeant
E7-Sergeant First Class
E8-Master Sergeant
E9-Sergeant Major

Once(if) you complete the Q course, you attend a promotion board for E-5 and is usually after roughly two years of training (18x). One should also note that if you make it into Delta, you automatically get E-7.

[Argyll]

Semper Fi,
Thanks that makes sense to me,but I'm not sure what jack was getting at though regarding the E No.s
So what you're sayin then is that I was right in saying that after 2 years Q course then these 18x are Put in for Sgt status?(E5)An 18 year old candidate being an E-5 at 20 is some going!!
2 years to E5 with relatively little experience,especially in Command and Control seems a bit bizzare?
Unless you're a **** hot soldier here in the UK it would take 3-6 years to make Cpl,I'm talking Infantry regiments,2-3 years to L/Cpl,as I said unless you were something really special,6-8 years to Sgt!,and along the way you start off being a section 2i/c in command of 4 men,the section Commander(Cpl) in charge of 8 men,then Plt Sgt,who has 30 approx under his command.

It would be interesting to see how the 18x program succeeds or not,and to what calibre of man it produces,in levels of Maturity ans experience,an old head on young shoulders sort of thing.

[Argyll]

Just as an after thought Semper,when you were talking about the TV thing,would you then not look at "Combat Missions",where 90% of these guys were all ex SOF,in the same light?
The program SAS)Are you tough enough was asking if a civvie right off the street could pass selection for 22 SAS, remember that most of the guys here trying for SF usually have 3-6 years Military Service behind them in the 1st place,most come from Infantry Regiments,though not all,and a very good % of these are from the Parachute Regiment,purely because their standard is generally accepted as being higher than a regular Infantry unit,but like most other units in the UK ,they'd disagree with that!!
Its the same as the RM Commandoes,again they're training is longer and tougher than regular Infantry as well

[Jack Mehoff]

Jack,
I thought the 18x program was all about taking John Doe from civvy life and making him an SF guy within 2 years?


Actually, make that 4 years if that guys is really really good.


John Doe's military service timeline

-Enlisted and join the military when he turned 18
-Completed basic training, AIT, airborne school 6 months later. So that makes him 18 1/2
-Stay in his current unit for another 2 years to get time-and-grade, experience, and last but not least-recommendation from his commander for SF school (US Army doesn't like the idea of wasting money on an 18 year old cherry FNG and expect him to fail SF school within the first week.)
-1 to 1.5 year of special forces school in Ft Bragg. Depend on your MOS too, SF medic sergeant takes the longest time to complete.
-By the time he has his green beret, he will be at least 22

[FallenAngel]

Jack, not to say you're wrong, but the way it was explained to me was that the 18X program is sort of a "fast-track" to SF. Basic, Infantry school, Airborne school, Q-course, etc. would be done back-to-back-to-back as to produce SF soldiers in the least amount of time.

Of course, what they usually DON"T mention too much is that if at any part along the way you fail- your pounding ground in an infantry division. (not that that's a bad thing ;) )

[Jack Mehoff]

To my knowledge, they don't allow FNG fresh out of AIT to go straight to SF school. RIP? Yes

[Argyll]

Thanks for the heads up Jack,that's the impression about the 2 years too,hence the stuff I posted!

[Scrim]

Go look at the Armys own web-site. The 18x program is a fast track to SF. There is no 2 years spent with regular unit, after Basic/AIT its off to begin SF training. 60 something weeks later your a Sgt in SF. Assuming you complete the training of course. Id love to see the completion rates. Ill bet the Army has a ****load of cooks and regular infantry who failed the 18x program.

[96B]

Its a great recruiting tool because everybody signs up with 18x wanting to be Rambo only to have the majority end up as 11 Bravos (Infantry). I believe the attrition rate is about 80% though. Like many before me, I believed that it is obsurred to have a "fast track" to SF but then I thought about it and it makes sense. If the candidate has no time in the conventional Army, it is easier to mold him into an unconventional warrior without any acquired "bad habbits". If someone does not belong in SF, they will get rooted out in selection and some even in the Q course. I have certainly not BTDT, but those that have will tell you that simply being in good shape will not earn you the Green Beret.

Another point to make, SEALs are a very respectable unit and among the best, but how much experience do sailors get in the fleet that will prepare them for being a good operator? For most of the Navy's rates, not much. The point is, good training can usually make up for lack of operational experience. With that said, certain units such as Delta and Team 6 are exceptions because of their particular missions and requirements.

In response to Argyll, Combat Missions were entirely composed of retired personell, whereas in SAS: Are You Tough Enough supposedly had real SAS guys on there (the cadre with blurred faces). I hated Combat Missions anyways because it seemed too staged and unrealistic, not to mention the anger within me of the SWAT cops wooping up on SOF operators.

[Argyll]

Then the anonymity thing was ok then,I was told the guys with the blurred faces were ex personnel,but still doing "security" work,hence the blurred out faces,ther's no way the Regiment would allow Full time operators to spend 6 weeks to work with a TV company about how tough selection is,these guys at Hereford are training almost continiously,and should not have time to make TV shows!! ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

Another point to make, SEALs are a very respectable unit and among the best, but how much experience do sailors get in the fleet that will prepare them for being a good operator? For most of the Navy's rates, not much. The point is, good training can usually make up for lack of operational experience. With that said, certain units such as Delta and Team 6 are exceptions because of their particular missions and requirements.


Not all Seal trainees are seabees, a lot of them are from the Marine Corp as well.

[Registration Information]

Those interested in enlisting under the Special Forces Enlistment Option
> >will enlist under U.S. Army Training of Choice Enlistment Option,
>Military
> >Occupational Specialty (MOS) 18X (SF Recruit). Minimum term of enlistment
> >is
> >5 years of active duty service. All individuals (with or without previous
> >military service must meet all prerequisites listed below to be eligible.
> >1. Must be 18 years of age by graduation of Basic Combat Training and
> >Infantry One Station Unit Training (OSUT), and have not reached their
>30th
> >birthday prior to ship date.
> >2. Qualified for and volunteer for airborne training (must have airborne
> >stamp on physical).
> >3. Must be an U.S. Citizen.
> >4. High School Diploma Graduate. (High school seniors must have high
>school
> >diploma prior to ship date).
> >5. Must be eligible for a SECRET clearance.
> >6. Must pass the Defense Language Aptitude Battery (DLAB) test with a
> >minimum score of 80 within 10 days of DEP-in.
> >7. Must successfully complete the Pre-Basic Training Task List (USAREC
>Form
> >1137) while a member of the Delayed Enlistment Program prior to ship
>date.
> >Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) portion of task list must be completed
> >within 30 days of ship date. Individuals will be enlisted in pay grade
>E-3.
> >Below you will find the training path. Individuals without prior military
> >service must follow all steps. Individuals with prior service already
> >holding a primary specialty in the 11 series (Infantry) will skip step 2
>in
> >the training path. Individuals with prior service that are airborne
> >qualified will skip step 3 in the training path. Individuals with prior
> >service that are both Infantry and Airborne qualified will enlist with an
> >assignment to Fort Bragg, NC, skipping steps 2 and 3 in the training
>path.
> >Individuals must complete each step before proceeding to the next. NOTE:
> >Must obtain an electrocardiogram upon arrival at the Special Operations
> >Preparatory & Conditioning Course.
> >Training path at Fort Benning, Georgia
> >1. In-processing through Reception Battalion. (7-10 days)
> >2. Attend Infantry School (18 weeks) - Must achieve an Army Physical
> >Fitness
> >Test (APFT) score of 229 with a minimum of 60 points in each event upon
> >completion of training.
> >3. Airborne School (3 weeks)
> >Training path at Fort Bragg, North Carolina
> >4. Special Operations Preparatory and Conditioning (2 weeks) - This
>course
> >is two weeks in duration, consisting of physical conditioning, land
> >navigation, and small unit tactics training. Individuals will be required
> >to
> >meet Special Forces (SF) selection and eligibility criteria.
> >5. Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course ( 3 weeks)
> >6. Army Common Leader Training (2 to 3 weeks)
> >7. Small Unit Tactics (7 weeks)
> >8. Special Forces Qualification Course
> >Phase I SFQC (7 weeks)
> >Phase II - training in specific specialty (12-56 weeks)
> >9. SERE school ( Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) ( 3 weeks)
> >10. Basic Military Language Course ( 16-24 weeks) Language will be
>dictated
> >based on the needs of the Special Operations Command at the time of your
> >attendance.
> >During this training you will attend the Primary Leadership Course and
> >Basic
> >Noncommissioned Officer Course. This training is one month in length for
> >each phase. The total training time to complete all of this can be range
> >from 1 to 2 1/2 years.

I will be enlisting as an E-4 due to my degree.

[96B]

Only Navy personel attend BUD/S however many former Marines join the Navy specifically to become a SEAL.

[Ratamacue]

Actually, Marines from Det.1 attend BUD/S now.

[Dmitri]

Phase II - training in specific specialty (12-56 weeks)
where did you get that from? I belive the least of the trainings is 26 wks long.

[Registration Information]

The information is posted on emails I receive from recruiters. I'm told the reason why 12 weeks is that there are soldiers who are coming back into SF for various reasons. But for an 18X recruit he can expect mos training to last from 24 weeks( 18B, 18C) to approx. 56 weeks (18D). Sorry for the error.

[Royal]

yeah I'd hope so too,but in UK SF sometimes its not uncommon to stay the same rank for many many years,it just depends on the availablity of ranks above SGT.
here in the UK the next stage up is C/SGT,S/GT(colour/Staff),and the're usually Quartermasters,the rank structure is very different from the US.
I guess the idea would be to get to Sgt Maj,providing there were spaces for such ranks within the Unit,the way it works in the UK is that there can't be 300+Sgts in one unit,though in saying that the SAS Trooper rank is equivalent to an Infantry Sgt in Stature,maybe Royal can elaborate a bit more on this,I've been out now for 15 years!!

SAS troopers are indeed considered equivilant to infantry sergeants (they're also paid on a par). A trooper will spend a minimum of 3 years (post selection & training) in the regiment before being considered fully badged. They can then enter the promotion race (if qualified - all SAS NCO's, regardless of background must pass SCBC/PSBC for their 2nd and 3rd stripes). A troop sergeant will have at least 10 years badged experience (although he may have made sergeant a couple of years earlier). A staff sergeant will have 12-15 years and a WOII about 18 years...

Things are slighly different at Poole (all RM NCO's do internal promotion courses anyway) - SC's often return to the Commandos to pick up command experience before returning to Poole - a good thing IMHO as it spreads thier experience through the Corps.

[Argyll]

Yep I believe its the same within Regiment,a brief spell back in the parent unit before being promoted within the Regiment!

[96B]

Actually, Marines from Det.1 attend BUD/S now.

Jack was implying that not all of the trainees that are going to become SEALs are Navy, which in fact they are which is what I was getting at. However, many former Marines enter the Navy for the opportunity to become a SEAL. First Phase of Det 1's training was conducted at Camp Pendleton and will end later this month, thus no USMC personel currently attend BUD/S. As soon as their First Phase ends, the Second Phase will begin from October to April and as soon as they are finished, the new unit will be officially assigned to SOCOM and put on deployments with NSW units.

[Royal]

Yep I believe its the same within Regiment,a brief spell back in the parent unit before being promoted within the Regiment!

Only for officers - badged OR's very rarely leave the regiment and come back.

[11F5S]

It's amazing how much BS can be posted by so few.

[11F5S]

My crystal ball tells me that thanks to this bull****e 18X program, the Army is going to have a whole bunch of SF wannabe cooks.

Then your crystal ball is made of plastic.

[11F5S]

My view is that it lowers the perception of "Special Forces"
But todays SF standrds seems to be considerably lower,and as much as I'll get flamed(whats new)for this,todays SF don't seem to have that Auora of mysticism about them,they are mass produced,and I would say that the Royal Marines,and the Parachute Regiment,are every bit as good as todays standard of US SF,excluding SFOD-Delta,SEAL's,and DEVGRU,of whom I'd band with the SAS/SBS....I know the current SF guys will say total ****,but hey this is my opinion,nobody elses.. ......at the moment!,Hell I'm sure some of the 75th Ranger regiment,are just as good as the SF guys.
When something is mass produced you tend to loose quality,but when you have limited editions,you know you have that qaulity!!
to the "Usual Suspect".........as I said ,this is just my opinion,you don't have to like it ,as I don't have to like yours!!You all need to find some peace within yourself,and stop being so obnoxious when someones opinion differs from yours!!Its called life........get on with it!


Registration Info.............Good luck,you're gonna need it ,and some!!!

You don't know WTF you are talking about as far as US Army Speial Forces is concerned.

For starters there was no such thing as being SF tabbed in the 60's 70's, or early eighties. Nuff said.

[11F5S]

Yeah in the standards I should be more clearer,I belive the selection for serving soldiers will be the same,but right off the streets....does seem to indicate lower standards,how on earth can some 18 year old kid fresh out of school,have the same apttitude,and attitude of a 5 year veteran of the 75th ranger regiment!!?

First off that 18 year old will be at least 20 before he ever see the inside of a teamroom.

Second SF isn't the Ranger Rgt......and five years in the 75th doesn't mean the guy will make it in SF.

[11F5S]

Yes the program is a tool to strengthen up either their infantry and for those who make it, SF.

Wrong! 18X was designed by SPECIAL FORCES to fill the manning needs of SF. USASFC isn't concerned with the needs of the Infantry or any other branch for that matter.

[11F5S]

As I understand it this isn't the first time the US Army has done this type of thing. I believe there were 18X troops (Although they weren't called that then) in Vietnam and they performed admirably.

You are correct....in fact SF has had trained new recruits from the beginning in fact there were PVT E-2's in the first SFQC classes back in 1952.

[11F5S]

R.I,
I'm certainly not jealous,if that's what you're implying,I'm also from the UK,so your SF selection means nothing to me ,the point I was making is that it's not about being fit,it was about all the other stuff,and then some,and if you looked a little closer I also wished you good luck,and I meant it!But you have to remember that the failure rate for SF selection is around 80%,that's not being negative, that unfortunately is fact!
I know there are a few "real deals" who have posted here lately,they'll be able to give you a lot more info!
Out of your class some 30-50% will wash out in the 1st week!!In UKSF selection,during that 1st week,the dropout rate is higher!

You are doing what we refer to on this side of the pond to as "talking out of your ass" unless you have seen the statistics being kept at SWCS.

[11F5S]

You sure had me fooled.

You know something? opinions are great but when don't know what you are talking about then might as well flush your opinions down the toilet.[/quote]

Then let me flush for you.

[11F5S]

Jack,
I thought the 18x program was all about taking John Doe from civvy life and making him an SF guy within 2 years?


Actually, make that 4 years if that guys is really really good.


John Doe's military service timeline

-Enlisted and join the military when he turned 18
-Completed basic training, AIT, airborne school 6 months later. So that makes him 18 1/2
-Stay in his current unit for another 2 years to get time-and-grade, experience, and last but not least-recommendation from his commander for SF school (US Army doesn't like the idea of wasting money on an 18 year old cherry FNG and expect him to fail SF school within the first week.)
-1 to 1.5 year of special forces school in Ft Bragg. Depend on your MOS too, SF medic sergeant takes the longest time to complete.
-By the time he has his green beret, he will be at least 22

It would behoove you to extrecate your cranium from your rectum before opening your piehole.

FLUSH

[Trigger]

got issues?

[Argyll]

Yeah and isn't it amazing how some one needs 5 posts to get nothing across!!
11F5S wrote

For starters there was no such thing as being SF tabbed in the 60's 70's, or early eighties. Nuff said.
So you never had any Special Forces wearing the SF tab in these years?
Nobody wore the Lightning flashes ,because that's what I meant ,or do you mean the actual tab that says "Special Forces",maybe I should've made myself a bit more clearer.

Just from your ****ty attitude I can tell you're a **** right off,instead of coming here guns blazing perhaps you can enlighten us all to your wealth of experience


Second SF isn't the Ranger Rgt......and five years in the 75th doesn't mean the guy will make it in SF.

Who said he would,read the post ,it relates to the guys Military experience,it may not be the Ranger Rgt,but I'll bet a damn good percentage of SF candidates come from the ranger regiments!!

who said an 18year old would be a tabbed Operator?,if it takes 2 years to get through the program then it's obvious he's going to be 20 years old!

Read the post again I said apptitude and attitudes in relation to a Ranger with 5 years Military service
Try engaging your brain before your mouth before trying to come the bigshot!.

I've also admitted I also know very little about the USSF Q course,when the 18x program was 1st described to me in another forum,I thought it was all about bringing kids in to do a mans job,and an 18 year old is still a kid in my book,however from others here in the forum I've learned this is not the case,and that it's the same standards that an 18x has to go through as what the 5 year veteran has to go through.

But you're just plain ignorant,and I don't give a toss whatever you are or would claim to be,you come across as an arrogant SOB,try being nice instead of obnoxious,and replace the errors in peoples post with some facts !!
Have a nice day!

[Jack Mehoff]

Are you trolling 11F5S? Your mama don't teach you any manners or something? Hood is going to ban your 12 year old ass if you don't stop being uncivilized :bash:




11F5S
Rank 0

Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Posts: 9


Amazing!!

And I thought 12 year old little trolls stop coming after the summer is over :lol:

[Argyll]

Jack,
did somebody hump this guys mamma and not leave any money on the bedside table?

Man what a ****ty attitude ,at least I will admit whan I get something wrong!

[Jack Mehoff]

Jack,
did somebody hump this guys mamma and not leave any money on the bedside table?

Man what a ****ty attitude ,at least I will admit whan I get something wrong!

Let's just put some money on the table next time so he won't have an attitude like sailor on PMS :lol:

[Argyll]

:lol: yeah nice one!!

[11F5S]

So you never had any Special Forces wearing the SF tab in these years? NO!


Nobody wore the Lightning flashes ,because that's what I meant ,or do you mean the actual tab that says "Special Forces",maybe I should've made myself a bit more clearer.

Well gee, are we suposed to be psychic? Lightning flashes? If you are referring to the 3 lightning bolts on the SSI (shoulder sleeve insignia) of the 1st SF then say it. Wearing the SF SSI didn't make one SF qualified, it just means they were in an SFG (clerks, cooks et al)

Just from your ****ty attitude I can tell you're a **** right off,instead of coming here guns blazing perhaps you can enlighten us all to your wealth of experience

Waste my time enlightening a know-it-all(s)...I don't think so.

Second SF isn't the Ranger Rgt......and five years in the 75th doesn't mean the guy will make it in SF.

Who said he would,read the post ,it relates to the guys Military experience,it may not be the Ranger Rgt,but I'll bet a damn good percentage of SF candidates come from the ranger regiments!!

And you get your information from?

I've also admitted I also know very little about the USSF Q course,when the 18x program was 1st described to me in another forum,I thought it was all about bringing kids in to do a mans job,and an 18 year old is still a kid in my book,however from others here in the forum I've learned this is not the case,and that it's the same standards that an 18x has to go through as what the 5 year veteran has to go through.

Glad you admit it...because it sure was obvious to me....you have at he ability to type a lot and say very little that's factual.

But you're just plain ignorant,and I don't give a toss whatever you are or would claim to be,you come across as an arrogant SOB,try being nice instead of obnoxious,and replace the errors in peoples post with some facts !!

I your case I'd have to devote the rest of my retirement to doing that...no thanks.

Have a nice day!

Thank you, and you have one too.

[11F5S]

[quote="Jack Mehoff"]Are you trolling 11F5S? Your mama don't teach you any manners or something? Hood is going to ban your 12 year old ass if you don't stop being uncivilized :bash:[quote]

Did I hurt you little feelings Jackyboy??? Let him ban me....like I need to be here with the likes of you...

Why are you here? You must be an SF groupie cause you sure as **** aren't SF material.

De Oppresso Liber

[Argyll]

And you still have not posted any of your facts to back up a single thing you posted!

Waste my time enlightening a know-it-all(s)...I don't think so.

Who's coming across like the know it all now?


but I'll bet a damn good percentage of SF candidates come from the ranger regiments!!

And you get your information from?

a bet is a guess,but seeing as you're a smart ass,you'll correct the mistake if there is one!

I'll also bet if you're not 14 years old,you're another bored dumbass from SOCNET,whos' got nothing better to do other than go and do some **** stirring

[Jack Mehoff]

[quote="Jack Mehoff"]Are you trolling 11F5S? Your mama don't teach you any manners or something? Hood is going to ban your 12 year old ass if you don't stop being uncivilized :bash:[quote]

Did I hurt you little feelings Jackyboy??? Let him ban me....like I need to be here with the likes of you...

Why are you here? You must be an SF groupie cause you sure as **** aren't SF material.

De Oppresso Liber

"The quiet professional"

If you are special forces and i'm king England. Plus, you are one annoying ****, not quiet.

[11F5S]

I'll also bet if you're not 14 years old,you're another bored dumbass from SOCNET,whos' got nothing better to do other than go and do some **** stirring

What happened, the BTDT's kicked your butt off SOCNET?

[Argyll]

Jesus man you got one serious giant bug up your ass man,and it's eaten your stupid brain out!!

All you have done is throw some crap comments acted like a real tough nut ,you're right you don't need to be here,so why don't you just Fu*k off then?

Or perhaps your so full of Jack Daniels they kicked you out of high school for being an asshole,and you need some group therapy!?

My guess is you're trying to imply your some kind of SF guy,when there are some descent SF guys who actually take time out to talk to folk here in a civilised manner,these are the guys who get the respect they deserve but you,well you need to go and see a proctologist,get him to have a good look in there and see if you'r brain is still there

[Jack Mehoff]

Before you claim your are SF, make sure to let us see your credentials. A snap shot of your AKO account, Section 13 on DD-214, LES, military ID. Any of those will work, do you want some examples too? I got some. Too many 12 year old boys like yourself claimed t be SF.

Examples:


http://www.nastyburger.com/ako.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/id1.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/id2.jpg

[Argyll]

and also if it was any of your business,I'm BTDT so shut the fu*k up,you'rebehaving like a spoilt kid!
Jack is also BTDT,so why don't you scurry back to the hole you came out off,that's if the proctologist will let you back in!

[11F5S]

Let me guess you lasted 2 maybe 3 posts before you got DX'ed....by The Reaper.

[Jack Mehoff]

This awesome photoshop skill is for you 11F5S

http://www.nastyburger.com/trolls1.jpg

[Argyll]

1980-88

Put up or shut the Fuc* up!

[11F5S]

1980-1988 WTF does that mean

[Jack Mehoff]

So far I only see talk and insults from 11F5S WITH NO credentials or proof.

In conclusion, 11F5S is a just a pissed off little 12 year old boy who lost his cookie.

[Royal]

1980-1988 WTF does that mean

It means he served in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders from 1980 to 1988.

Argyll has never claimed to be SF, but as an infantryman (or as he would say as a Jock) he is BTDT.

[Jack Mehoff]

Too all the non-Americans posters here...

11F5S DO NOT represents US armed forces eventhough he claimed that he is. So please, don't take him too seriously because he is just a little 12 year old boy desperately needs some attention. I don't want any bad reputation about US military all because of his attitude. :D

[11F5S]

To my knowledge, they don't allow FNG fresh out of AIT to go straight to SF school. RIP? Yes

You just illustrated how little "knowledge" about SF and the 18X enlistment you have......I'd put it at NADA!

Here are the some FACTS. It changes almost daily and SFAS is now Phase I of the SFQC.

https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/epsf/18XProgram.htm

[11F5S]

Too all the non-Americans posters here...

11F5S DO NOT represents US armed forces eventhough he claimed that he is. So please, don't take him too seriously because he is just a little 12 year old boy desperately needs some attention. I don't want any bad reputation about US military all because of his attitude. :D

A. I never claimed to represent the US Armed Forces in any way shape or form. At the present time, I am enjoying my retirement.

B. It's you who is giving the US Army a bad reputation here by attempting to spread your ignorance as fact.

C. It's Does not, not "DO NOT".

[Beowulf]

Waste my time enlightening a know-it-all(s)...I don't think so
11F5S,
The guys here are reacting to your first few posts. You are doing a lot of insulting w/o providing any good information for some people that have legitimate questions.

If you really are/were 11F5S (and I'm not saying one way or the other) then you should have a ton of knowledge that you could share to help some of these guys out. Some of it may be older (vietnam era right?), but I'm sure most of it is still pertinent.

Right now it just seems like you came in and began saying how everyone is stupid/ignorant and doesn't know anything, this may or may not be true but it comes across as rather rude and unprofessional.

Finally, in a military environment I would not likely be in a position to tell a long tab E-8 or E-9 anything. However this is not a military environment this is an internet message board. So I will ask that you keep things as civil as possible, and an introduction would be nice.

If you are an 11F5S, then you have my respect. If you want to put the controversy to bed, then PM me I won't ask for any personal info....I'm not gonna tell you to verify if you're really BTDT.
I'll leave that to you.
All Best
-b

[11F5S]

I don't need to justify myself to a self-proclaimed "white racist".

[Beowulf]

I don't need to justify myself to a self-proclaimed "white racist".
do you mean me??

[Argyll]

Hey Beowulf,
Whatever this guy is ,he has a serious problem,he's a bitter and twisted individual,who has done NOTHING to reflect his proffesion,whether that be SF or a regular US Soldier.
Retirment through metal stability seems understandable,he's a shamefull example of how NOT to behave.

[Haiw]

Well you know, every family normally has 2 grandfathers, so that settles it :)
about ur future-son-in-law...how about giving him some 'hints'? mail-order him a wedding ring brochure or something ;)

[ibstolidude]

I don't need to justify myself to a self-proclaimed "white racist".
do you mean me??

- Damn he pegged you, right off the bat.


lol!!
:roll:

[Trigger]

Isn't it nice when some of the 'old timers' (I mean that nicely) can post a few lines and they have more weight than 10 pages of n00b B.S.

[Nawlins]

I don't need to justify myself to a self-proclaimed "white racist".

Uhh... are you talking to Beowulf? Did you check his posts before opening your piehole? He has a right to ask, he's in a position of authority here.

Geez. :cantbeli:

[11F5S]

So far I only see talk and insults from 11F5S WITH NO credentials or proof.

In conclusion, 11F5S is a just a pissed off little 12 year old boy who lost his cookie.

You posted pics of an ID card ...so what... you were in the Army... Almost every statement you have made on thread is proof of your ignorance on the topic here.

Prove to me that anything I said about SF and the 18X prorgram (That's what this thread was about) is incorrect... and what you said is correct.

Whether or not I'm SF is immaterial to the topic of this thread. If you get insulted by being confronted with you ignorance, then quit posting it for the world to see. .


JackMeoff.....
1. John Doe off the street? Sure, if he been in for two years, completed basic training, AIT, airborne school, E-4 or better. Never in my life i've seen anybody achieve the E-5 status within 2 years period they been in the military. I guess my four years in the regular Army taught me something.

You know something? opinions are great but when don't know what you are talking about then might as well flush your opinions down the toilet.

** This was about the only intelligent comment you made, too bad you didn't heed your own advice.



2. John Doe's military service timeline

-Enlisted and join the military when he turned 18
-Completed basic training, AIT, airborne school 6 months later. So that makes him 18 1/2
-Stay in his current unit for another 2 years to get time-and-grade, experience, and last but not least-recommendation from his commander for SF school (US Army doesn't like the idea of wasting money on an 18 year old cherry FNG and expect him to fail SF school within the first week.)
-1 to 1.5 year of special forces school in Ft Bragg. Depend on your MOS too, SF medic sergeant takes the longest time to complete.
-By the time he has his green beret, he will be at least 22

3. To my knowledge, they don't allow FNG fresh out of AIT to go straight to SF school. RIP? Yes

Like I said before...your ignorance shows

4. Not all Seal trainees are seabees, a lot of them are from the Marine Corp as well.

Seals are what they train at Sea World... The US Navy has SEAL's......SEABEES and MARINES now that is funny.... ROTFLMAO...

5 . In conclusion, 11F5S is a just a pissed off little 12 year old boy who lost his cookie.

You appear to be the one who is acting like a 12 year old.



Read this, it just might help cure some of your ignorance. https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/epsf/18XProgram.htm

[11F5S]

It's been a blast....Adios

[Haiw]

well u'r not SF or ex-SF so quit pretending to be the big know-it-all BTDT rambo guy....


see this?

http://www.apmdirect.com/shutterstore/images/door.jpg

it's the door where u step out....as u said... adios

damn why cant this stupid forum code work with multiple spaces :(

[reverence]

Aussie SF barrier test standards are as follows
3.2km run with 7kg webbing, rifle and wearing boots in 16min 30 secs
60(proper all the way down and all the way back up) push ups in 2 mins-I say this because most wash out on the 3.2 or push ups. almost everytime I hear someone say they can do over 100 push ups when it comes to the crunch they dont count cause theyre only half assed ones and theyre lucky to have 50 counted-my advice put something under your chest and touch it each time you go down or do them in front of a mirror and critique yourself-the Cadre staff and SF PTI's wont give you any freebies
100 sit ups in 2 mins
10 chin ups
Tread water for 2 min 30 secs and Swim 400m in DPCU's and boots
A four hour march in 20kg pack/ 8 kg webbing and rifle with a minimum of 22 km and a maximum of 28 km covered.
Tests in navigation/comms/first aid and weapons handling and a Team endurance/Teamwork/Initiative phase
Aptitude and Psychological testing

These are the minimum standards and if successful the applicant may then attempt the SASR selection or Commando Selection/Training Course both being the start of about 18 months to two years of almost back to back courses with a washout possible at any stage.

[Jack Mehoff]

So far I only see talk and insults from 11F5S WITH NO credentials or proof.

In conclusion, 11F5S is a just a pissed off little 12 year old boy who lost his cookie.

You posted pics of an ID card ...so what... you were in the Army... Almost every statement you have made on thread is proof of your ignorance on the topic here.

Prove to me that anything I said about SF and the 18X prorgram (That's what this thread was about) is incorrect... and what you said is correct.

Whether or not I'm SF is immaterial to the topic of this thread. If you get insulted by being confronted with you ignorance, then quit posting it for the world to see. .


JackMeoff.....
1. John Doe off the street? Sure, if he been in for two years, completed basic training, AIT, airborne school, E-4 or better. Never in my life i've seen anybody achieve the E-5 status within 2 years period they been in the military. I guess my four years in the regular Army taught me something.

You know something? opinions are great but when don't know what you are talking about then might as well flush your opinions down the toilet.

** This was about the only intelligent comment you made, too bad you didn't heed your own advice.



2. John Doe's military service timeline

-Enlisted and join the military when he turned 18
-Completed basic training, AIT, airborne school 6 months later. So that makes him 18 1/2
-Stay in his current unit for another 2 years to get time-and-grade, experience, and last but not least-recommendation from his commander for SF school (US Army doesn't like the idea of wasting money on an 18 year old cherry FNG and expect him to fail SF school within the first week.)
-1 to 1.5 year of special forces school in Ft Bragg. Depend on your MOS too, SF medic sergeant takes the longest time to complete.
-By the time he has his green beret, he will be at least 22

3. To my knowledge, they don't allow FNG fresh out of AIT to go straight to SF school. RIP? Yes

Like I said before...your ignorance shows

4. Not all Seal trainees are seabees, a lot of them are from the Marine Corp as well.

Seals are what they train at Sea World... The US Navy has SEAL's......SEABEES and MARINES now that is funny.... ROTFLMAO...

5 . In conclusion, 11F5S is a just a pissed off little 12 year old boy who lost his cookie.

You appear to be the one who is acting like a 12 year old.





Read this, it just might help cure some of your ignorance. https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/epsf/18XProgram.htm


Son, i hate to burst your bubbles but what make you think your commander allows you to go to SF school if you are fresh out of AIT and he thinks you are not ready? Unfortunately, most cherry fresh out of AIT are not ready. How do i know this? Let's see, i work with a recruiter, my building i'm drilling in is right next to 19th Special Forces' building, i have a ton of friends who went to selection and Q course in Bragg. Yes, my "ignorance" based on personal experience.

[11F5S]

"Jack Mehoff "

Son, i hate to burst your bubbles but what make you think your commander allows you to go to SF school if you are fresh out of AIT and he thinks you are not ready? Unfortunately, most cherry fresh out of AIT are not ready. How do i know this? Let's see, i work with a recruiter, my building i'm drilling in is right next to 19th Special Forces' building, i have a ton of friends who went to selection and Q course in Bragg. Yes, my "ignorance" based on personal experience.

Jack if you don't have a severe reading comprehension disorder...then you are one of the dumbest people I have ever met online.

Twice before, I offered you proof of your ignorance of Special Forces and the 18X enlistment, but for some reason you seem to enjoy stepping on your crank

Read this, it just might help cure some of your ignorance. If you don't comprehend it then ask someone to explain it to you. Maybe the guys in the 19th will help explain it to you...they have a similar program called REP-63 available to them.

https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/epsf/18XProgram.htm.


Try this site it's got pictures and sound. All you have to do is click on ENTER SF and then Click your mouse on TRAINING.

http://sf.goarmy.com/flindex.htm

The are somethings that are not 100% accurate but for the most part it's good to go.

P.S. Thanks for calling me son, but I was in the Army long before you made your debut on earth

[Argyll]

Whens the last time you checked that link?
Its now merged as Human resources or something like that?
Good read tho.

[11F5S]

The link worked when I tested it after posting....I'll find another way in. BRB

[Argyll]

So can I ask what your take or opinion is of the program?

The other link didn't work either btw :|

[11F5S]

IMO...the 18X program is excellent...SF has needed it for years...it's not something they just pulled out of the sky.....It is the result of years of planning....and it's still evolving.

[11F5S]

Here is an old USASOC press release

Army recruits enlisting directly into Special Forces training

For Immediate Release

By Spc. Kyle J. Cosner, U.S. Army Special Operations Command PAO

FORT BRAGG, N.C. – A new Army program that lets recruits enlist directly into rigorous Special Forces training here is currently underway and receiving a favorable response from civilians interested in earning the coveted Green Beret, according to officials from the U.S. Army Recruiting Command at Fort Knox, Ky.

"Since we restored the program, the results have been extremely positive," said Capt. David P. Connolly, a Public Information Officer at the U.S. Army Recruiting Command. "We anticipate achieving mission success well before the end of the fiscal year."

Revived in mid-January, the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative is a return to the original Special Forces recruitment process, which began in 1952 and allowed both civilians and servicemen to sign up for the nearly two years of training necessary to become a Green Beret.

"I think this program is the best thing to happen to Special Forces in years," said Col. Charles A. King, 1st Special Warfare Training Group (Airborne) commander. "It will allow us to recruit the right kind of guy off the street, train him, prepare him and mold him right from the start."

The training group is responsible for the training of all Special Forces recruits.

In 1988, the recruiting process was adjusted to allow only soldiers already in the Army to become Special Forces qualified.

"The Army at that time had three-quarters of a million people in it, and Special Forces was about 20 percent smaller than it is right now," King said. "With the Army being bigger and Special Forces being smaller, we discontinued the (recruiting) program. Things have now evolved to a point where we're down to a 480,000 person Army with significantly larger Special Forces groups."

"We are restoring a program which we used to have in order to meet our current operational requirements," King said. "We have the added benefit of having looked back and studied the (pre-1988) program. We're going to improve on it (with the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative)."

As of March 28, Army recruiters have already filled 140 of the 400 slots allotted for civilians enlisting into the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative, according to Connolly. He said since the initiative's pilot program was started in January it has met with much interest among those interested in the military.

According to data provided by the recruiting command, the first 56 Special Forces recruits shipped out during the first week in April to begin the nearly two years of training required to earn the Green Beret.

Among the 140 Special Forces hopefuls recruited so far, Connolly said 22 possess undergraduate degrees, three have a master's degree, and two have earned a Ph.D.

"We are seeing a great deal of quality in these applicants," Connolly said.

Recruits who begin training under the new program will enter the Army as a private first class, eventually earning the rank of sergeant when they complete training, King said.

"This program is not about putting privates on Special Forces teams. A soldier that comes in (the Army) under this program will join a team as a noncommissioned officer," he added.

Capt. Joe Martin, a 1st Special Warfare Training Group (Abn.) training detachment commander, said the new recruits will have a slightly different initial training process that will result in a higher success rate than past Special Forces hopefuls going through the Special Forces Assessment and Selection process.

Special Forces Assessment and Selection is designed to advance only highly qualified soldiers to the next levels of Special Forces training.

Martin said traditional in-service recruits go straight to Special Forces Assessment and Selection from their unit when they volunteer for Special Forces training. To prepare those recruited under the new recruiting initiative for success in the assessment process, the 1st Special Warfare Training Group (Abn.) has created the Special Operations Preparation and Conditioning course.

"A soldier coming through (the course) will be better prepared for getting through assessment and selection than one who didn't," Martin said. During the class, veteran Special Forces soldiers conduct intensive training in land navigation, physical training and other soldier skills with recruits.

In just four weeks, a class of soldiers who volunteered for Special Forces training from infantry training at Fort Benning improved their average score on the Army Physical Fitness Test by 30 points at the conditioning course, from 229 to 259, Martin said. The recently enlisted soldiers were used as training prototypes for the civilians recruited under the new initiative.

King said the initial Special Operations Preparation and Conditioning courses' successes were outstanding – out of 39 soldiers, only 3 didn't meet the assessment and selection standard.

"At (Special Forces Assessment and Selection), we typically lose about 50 percent of the class," King said.

King also said another advantage of enlisting civilian volunteers directly into Special Forces training was the fact they would be able to provide more years of service than someone recruited in-service, who typically already has about eight years of service in the Army when they volunteer. Civilians recruited under the Special Forces Recruiting Initiative will on average have slightly more than two years in service when they complete their training and are assigned to a team.

"They will be able to give us a full career," King said.

Chris Crain, a retired Special Forces master sergeant, enlisted directly into Special Forces training in 1969. He said the return to "off-the-street" recruiting is something he feels will help bring highly qualified individuals into the Green Berets' ranks.

"I think there's going to be a select part of our youth that will see this as an opportunity to do something they might not otherwise have an opportunity to do," Crain said.

Crain said when he entered Special Forces training, it was tough and designed "to weed out the weak." He said he was glad to see the current prerequisites for training were created with the same purpose in mind – to produce the best-qualified soldiers possible.

"With these kind of qualifications (for the recruits), they are really going to help the force," Crain said.

Despite the program's popularity with the recruits, some have characterized it as a move to quickly inflate the ranks of busy Special Forces teams, de-emphasizing high standards. King said criticism aimed at the program because of its creation during the heavy use of Special Forces soldiers in Operation Enduring Freedom was unfounded.

"There is some misconception that we are doing this because of Sept. 11. We have been working on an initial-accession program for quite some time – what Sept. 11 did was merely cause us to move up the timetable," King said.

"People have to understand that we have been training Special Forces soldiers for 50 years. There is nobody in this organization that is interested in taking shortcuts or compromising how we train. But everybody in this organization is absolutely confident in our ability to train these young men to standard."

Release No.: 402-02 Date: 8-Apr-02

[Argyll]

Would you happen to have any knowledge of the success/fail ratio?
So this was started in 2000(?) the 1st batch having entered their respective units in time for Afghanistan/Iraq?
It's obvious that it's a good program.
If someone starts to lag behind,does he get binned,or does he roll back a term?

[11F5S]

It all depends on the cicumstances....you don't thow away months and years of training just because a guy is having trouble with a particular part of the course.....some of the academics are a bitch.

Under the current system a guy doesn't earn the SF Tab and get to his Group until he has completed SERE and BMLC (language).

I see what you mean about the link...they are in the process of changing it around...and it works sometimes..at least for me. I will try to find a direct link to the page.

Try..this it works for me

https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/epsf/CMF18notes.htm

click on POTENTIAL RECRUITS, and then on 18X INITIAL ACCESSIONS

[Argyll]

Yeah but how many bites of the cherry does a guy get?
In the UK SAS/SBS selection,they'd get RTU'd immediately,and told to re apply,or Not to re apply if they were just chancers!,
No rolling back,I think Aussie SASR selection is the same?

[11F5S]

Let me give you an example it's outdated but makes for a good illustration.

An otherwise good student in the Commo Course is having difficulty with meeting the 18 GPM (IMC) required to graduate.....Say he's at 12 GPM at the time...do you send him packing to the regular Army or let him work on his code speed til it's up to snuff? Wouldn't it be a waste of time and money to send him packing when in a matter of days or weeks he could be tapping out code at 25 GPM.

[Argyll]

sorry for being ignorant here but what's the 18GPM?
You said Comms,I guess something to do with signals then?

[11F5S]

sorry for being ignorant here but what's the 18GPM?
You said Comms,I guess something to do with signals then?

Commo = Communications (signal if you will)

GPM = Groups per minute (groups of 5 characters) as in sending/receiving Morse Code.

[Jack Mehoff]

[quote]


P.S. Thanks for calling me son, but I was in the Army long before you made your debut on earth

Son, talk is cheap. So far you haven't prove anything or show anybody any credentials that you served in the military. Perhaps I can trust you if you been in the Boy Scout. Do you know what we do to GI Joe poser-wannabe over here in this forum?

I stand corrected. They don't let FNG fresh out of AIT go to SF school until they proven themself in their current unit. I been around the 19th guys a little bit too long and i work with a recruiter for sometime so I think I should have better idea than a foul mouth 12 year old wannabe(you)

Quiz:

Anybody here know what these buildings belong to?
Hint: the buildings are empty right now because all the occupants are in Afghanistan.

http://www.nastyburger.com/b1.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/b2.jpg

[11F5S]

[quote="Jack Mehoff"][quote="11F5S"][quote]

I stand corrected. They don't let FNG fresh out of AIT go to SF school until they proven themself in their current unit. I been around the 19th guys a little bit too long and i work with a recruiter for sometime so I think I should have better idea than a foul mouth 12 year old wannabe(you).

Well now you have confirmed the fact that you are one of the dumbest people that I have ever come in contact with on the web...Please have a vasectomy asap.



Quiz:

Anybody here know what these buildings belong to?
Hint: the buildings are empty right now because all the occupants are in Afghanistan. quote]

Gee whiz that's a tough one.....The 19th SFG(A)

[11F5S]

Jack Meoff

"I been around the 19th guys a little bit too long"

So I was right ...you are a groupie.

[Jack Mehoff]

Use the quote function. I'm having a headache just by looking at your posts

[Trigger]

*TV announcer voice*
"Your watching 'You're an A**hole! No, You're an A**hole' episode 895 on the 'Topic Beaten to Death Network'. Brought to you by Quilted Northern Bathroom Tissue..."
"Coming up next: Numbers with More than 19 Digits, with special guests Steven Hawking and via seance, Albert Einstein. Followed by 'The Mystery of Bleen' A number that some mathematicians believe falls between 6 and 7..." p-)

[ibstolidude]

[quote]


P.S. Thanks for calling me son, but I was in the Army long before you made your debut on earth

Son, talk is cheap. So far you haven't prove anything or show anybody any credentials that you served in the military. Perhaps I can trust you if you been in the Boy Scout. Do you know what we do to GI Joe poser-wannabe over here in this forum?

I stand corrected. They don't let FNG fresh out of AIT go to SF school until they proven themself in their current unit. I been around the 19th guys a little bit too long and i work with a recruiter for sometime so I think I should have better idea than a foul mouth 12 year old wannabe(you)

Quiz:

Anybody here know what these buildings belong to?
Hint: the buildings are empty right now because all the occupants are in Afghanistan.

http://www.nastyburger.com/b1.jpg

http://www.nastyburger.com/b2.jpg

- did they get send different BN to replace the 20th, or is it just several companies? as a 19th BN plus was there already in early 2002.

[Jack Mehoff]

A lot of 19th guys are still in Afghan and I find that rather strange because 19th SFG area of operation is around Asia, not Middle East. One of them told me that they have a shortage of Special Forces in Middle East.

[NcDeuce]

Yeah 5th Group's priority...but one group can't cover that whole region.

[11F5S]

It's not strange at all.....Just goes to show ya.....you don't know **** from shinola about SF.

The first Medal of Honor awarded for action in Vietnam went the CO of A-726, 7th SFG, Cpt Roger Donlon. The 7th's AO - Central and South America.

[JunglistSoldier]

your such an ass, dude.

Oh and one more thing - running with full combat load, ruck and all that jazz is NOT good training. No it doesn't matter if your dad who founded delta sof SEAL-airborne regiment did that in basic.




I think a lot of hopefulls who post here will not make the grade,they seem to think it as being glamourous being SOF,it's not its deadly serious,and it ain't no cake walk!!!

thank you. thats what i've been telling him. not a whole lotta people make it. if they did... we'd have SF guys out the ass... and thats not what the government wants. and it seems like the govn. is trying to produce SF soliders rather than let them develope in teh regular army. most kids that try out for SF can't even hack it in the regualr army. which is all the more why i doubt this guy will even make it through the first selection phase.