Evolution of cars -- Japan, USA, Germany & Russia

[Scriptable]

Let the flame war begin...

http://i.imgur.com/XZZOM.jpg

[sepheronx]

America in 1978 has far better looking cars then they do now. They all look the same, along with their Asian counterparts.

1970 Chevy Nova FTW!

Edit: My sister has the same 2009 mustang listed above, and my uncle has the 1967 mustang, and her mustang is the worlds biggest piece of ****. That thing is constantly needing maintenance, while my uncles 1967 barely needs any.

[Tango-1]

Italian?!


10char

[Fuschimuschi]

America in 1978 has far better looking cars then they do now.

While that is true the Mustang and the Ford GT are still abosolutely badass!!!

[Scriptable]

The pinnacle of Australian car technology: The Sandman Shaggin Wagon

http://imgur.com/bQLFt.jpg

http://imgur.com/X7piT.jpg

[sepheronx]

While that is true the Mustang and the Ford GT are still abosolutely badass!!!

Question: Have you ever driven or owned one? I may not own one, but I once in a while Drive my sisters (as she hates the car, and I lend her my piece of ****) and I have to say, my other car (intrepid, 1996) handles way better (not as powerful mind you). The Mustang blows.

Edit: The car I am looking into now, is the 1973 ford Mach 1. Friend of mine has a buddy selling his (exterior in best condition, needs some work, maybe at most 1600 in work) and just may purchase it.

[PeterRJG]

The pinnacle of Australian car technology: The Sandman Shaggin Wagon



Better known as the HZ Panelvan.

[Sandgroper]

Better known as the HZ Panelvan.

I met a bloke at the petrol station yesterday who lives out of his panelvan, not sure what model it was though. He said he has a TV (with a digital set-top box of course) in the back and everything.

Living the dream...

[zxc]

I lol'd at the Russian one, but this one would be a more suitable car: http://www.autoinfection.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Marussia-B1-4.jpg

[Death.]

America in 1978 has far better looking cars then they do now. They all look the same, along with their Asian counterparts.

1970 Chevy Nova FTW!

Edit: My sister has the same 2009 mustang listed above, and my uncle has the 1967 mustang, and her mustang is the worlds biggest piece of ****. That thing is constantly needing maintenance, while my uncles 1967 barely needs any.

The car in the photo is a 2010 Mustang.

[sepheronx]

The car in the photo is a 2010 Mustang.

regardless, the vehicle is a pos.

[jetsetter]

regardless, the vehicle is a pos.

Most seem to disagree. Most includes the magazines, owners, etc.

[LS1 Miata]

regardless, the vehicle is a pos.

Don't know about the 2009's, but the 2010's are amazing. The new 5.0 engine is very good, and is expected to win multiple awards.

[Steak-Sauce]

I lol'd at the Russian one, but this one would be a more suitable car:
That looks like a "the only one of its kind / ever made / limited to 100 cars" type of car.

Out of interest, how many normal Russian automobile manufacturers are out there? Lada, GAZ are not the only ones?

[Death.]

Don't know about the 2009's, but the 2010's are amazing. The new 5.0 engine is very good, and is expected to win multiple awards.

The 2010s carried over the same engines from 2005-2009. Only in 2011 did the new 5.0/3.7 come out.

[Ritual]

Mustang entered a dark era from about 74 until 79? Mustang II.

Those things were hideous.

Camaro had the same problem from about 74-77 with the big bumper era (aka bumble bee).

I usually rag on mustangs but to be honest, I secretly love me some 73 mach 1. :cantbeli:

The new 2011's are monsters, I have a fair bit of respect for these newer cars.

[Alex G]

That looks like a "the only one of its kind / ever made / limited to 100 cars" type of car.

Out of interest, how many normal Russian automobile manufacturers are out there? Lada, GAZ are not the only ones?

None that anybody here in Europe would even think about buying cars from.

[Death.]

Mustang entered a dark era from about 74 until 79? Mustang II.

Those things were hideous.

Camaro had the same problem from about 74-77 with the big bumper era (aka bumble bee).

I usually rag on mustangs but to be honest, I secretly love me some 73 mach 1. :cantbeli:

The new 2011's are monsters, I have a fair bit of respect for these newer cars.


I'm going to extend your dark era and say from 1971-1998.

[West Texican]

Let the flame war begin...



I was very surprised by this.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-worst-in-car-reliability-1005/reliability-findings/reliability-findings.htm

[el borracho]

I'm going to extend your dark era and say from 1971-1998.

I was gonna say, the 80's models are fugly. And the early 90's version can still be found in trailer parks all across the US.

[I Love GWB]

The Porsche Boxster has the best predicted reliability in our survey, while the Audi A6 3.0T and Jaguar XF have the worst.

For real? Never had any problems with my A6 and it's now about 10 years old. Got a different 3.0 engine then the current A6 though.

[Steak-Sauce]

None that anybody here in Europe would even think about buying cars from.
That doesn't answer my question at all.

[Hyde]

That looks like a "the only one of its kind / ever made / limited to 100 cars" type of car.

Out of interest, how many normal Russian automobile manufacturers are out there? Lada, GAZ are not the only ones?

Lada:
The Priora, the Kalina, soon they will start with a car based on the Renault Logan but "restyled" and branded as a Lada, called the project R90, the Niva and the newer GM/AvtoVAZ Chevrolet Niva. As they probably have to replace all the tooling to be able to produce new and modern cars, their real, own, new cars will proabably start production around 2012-2014, as I've read on a french forum where the timeline and plans have been posted.

Here's a gallery, serial on the left, concepts on the right: http://www.cardesign.ru/gallery/cars/lada/

UAZ:
Hunter, Patriot

Tagaz:
Until recently they only manufactured Korean and Japanese vehicles for the Russian market and Korean-developed cars under their own brands, and now they have one rebranded Chinese car in their portfolio, but they have one of their own developed cars now (Tagaz Vega C100) and plan to produce their own developed models in future. They have already shown concepts of the Tagaz B100, Q100, D100, CH105 on the Moscow 2010 auto show.

Here's link which is a nice gallery, on the left are the currentlly produced serial models (the first are koreans, everything after and including Road Master are their own, the ones without a brand name are sold under the Tagaz brand, and the Vortex ones are another one of their brands) and on the right the 4 concepts of their self-developed cars which they presented this year:
http://www.cardesign.ru/gallery/cars/tagaz/

Another link which shows their portfolio, but for more just use google, they have a website and wiki explains it very well (the German wiki even better than the english, as it covers more models, just use google translate). http://www.carsoftheworld.eu/index.php/News/2010-moscow-motor-show-tagaz.html

There is also a company named Derways Automobile Company
Seem to produce some decently, and some awfully looking vehicles. Maybe rebranded Chinese copycat cars...not sure.

[Steak-Sauce]

Hui, that's nice! Thanks, MareCar.

[AlexMartin2]

Volga Gaz M-21 tuning (on BMW 6 series platform):

http://media.meta.ua/files/pic/0/22/140/ljMBCJs9ky.JPG

:)

[reisa]

wow! it seems the old batmobile... how much is it?

[johanness]

Looking not that bad :

http://http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-61506-2.html

http://www.marussiamotors.ru/en/cars/

I, myself would like more a russian cross/country 4 wheel and easy to repair myself car.

Something like a modern Niva.

[johanness]

Sorry, if that imagine not works, try : http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-61506-2.html

[Kit]

No offense to our Russian members, but Russian car design looks soulless and backwards. Whenever I see a Russian car, I can't help but look on it with pity like a baby with downs syndrome. (Not that I'm implying that people with Downs are soulless). Why can't they get those aviation engineers to design some cars? The Su-27 and MiG-29 look really sexy. So Russian design isn't all bad.

[johanness]

You think of a car like that : http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-61506-5.html
/http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-61506-5.html

[Hyde]

Looking not that bad :

http://http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-61506-2.html

http://www.marussiamotors.ru/en/cars/

I, myself would like more a russian cross/country 4 wheel and easy to repair myself car.

Something like a modern Niva.

There's the Chevrolet Niva, the Hunter and the Patriot. And some of the Tagaz vehicles in the link I gave. Don't know how "easy to repair yourself" all these cars are, though. The Hunter and the Niva should be good. The Patriot is the successor of the UAZ-3162 Simbir. The Patriot and/or Patriot Sport are set to get a new interior if I understood correctly:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3285/mmas20200620uaz20patrio.jpg

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3285/mmas20200620uaz20patrio.jpg

Here are a few good pictures of the Patriot: http://autoforum.volgograd.ru/viewtopic.php?t=15208

(No, I'm not a Russian car nut, until recently I had the same thoughts about it as everyone else: There's Lada and it still builds 30 year old models. But I came about a French Forum the other day that had TONS of info, concepts, projects etc for Lada and other Russian car makers. An hour of reading was very informative and enough to educate me that my "opinion" was wrong.)


EDIT:
Stumbled upon a Patriot pulling a BTR-80 p-)
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6637/testuazpatriotsport.jpg

Can any of the Russian speaking members sum up this test? How did the Patriot perform? I am really interested to know if its any good. Thanks :)

http://suvonline.narod.ru/suvonline/test/pub/test/10upaq5vxc60/upaq5vxc60.htm

[Lector]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/volga-01.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/volga-07.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/pobeda_new2.jpg

New Lada C concept looks promising.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/ladac.jpg

[Kit]

I just recalled Russia's famous Dartz SUV
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/895/dartz20kombat20t98.jpg
Gleipnir approved.

[zheka130]

I think the key to assessing Russian cars is to think about the era when they originated.

During Soviet times the military industry was of of out most importance and everything else was second class.

For example my grandfather's motorcycle was built at a plant that actually built tanks and motorcycles were being built there as a cover up. Thus the quality was inferior.

I think that if the Soviet engineers had really aspired to built a high quality car, they would have succeeded at least to some extent,

after all, it probably takes more to build airplanes and submarines than cars, and Russian submarines or planes are not too bad at all

[jklv]

Hahahahaha the Russian part made me lol.

Anyway, why aren't there Italian cars?

[Derbedeu]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/volga-01.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/volga-07.jpg


Not bad looking at all.

[sepheronx]

Don't know about the 2009's, but the 2010's are amazing. The new 5.0 engine is very good, and is expected to win multiple awards.

The engines are not the problem, it is pretty much everything else. This has always been the case, even my 1985 (ugg) Mustang had nearly everything else wrong with it except the engine (older American engines (to now) are built to last).



Most seem to disagree. Most includes the magazines, owners, etc.

Well, then they have not owned one for longer then a year, when most of the electronics goes and the transmition starts to cause issues.


Mustang entered a dark era from about 74 until 79? Mustang II.

Those things were hideous.

Camaro had the same problem from about 74-77 with the big bumper era (aka bumble bee).

I usually rag on mustangs but to be honest, I secretly love me some 73 mach 1. :cantbeli:

The new 2011's are monsters, I have a fair bit of respect for these newer cars.

I would say that the 80's and 90s where the worst for the Mustang. 69 and prior where the greatest years for it. the Mach 1 from 1971 to 73 where great (cousin owned 1971 Mach 1, drove that thing to the ground), that beast was amazing.

[Hyde]

The Concept C is older and won't get into production that way. The Lada Project C platform looks promising, but it should've started production 2-3 years ago for Lada to become competitive again...for it to be competitive in a few years it would need a whole new exterior and new engines. But since I've already seen that they are planning a restyling for when it finally comes out (leaked documents and plans on the french forum) and since I doubt that they even have settled for an engine yet, and thus would still have to pick one, they can do that when they are soon to release it, but it would definitely help Lada stay alive. But the project is from 2007, so it doesn't look as good anymore compared to the cars that available today.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4315/y1n20271024.jpg

Exterior shots: http://www.doroga78.ru/encyclopaedia/639/

Here are pictures of the Hatchback version of that car:

http://carsspyphotos.com/lada-c-2116/

But I think they're not stupid, it was probably the right decision not to invest a huge sum of money to produce a range of cars that will soon look outdated and for which they have no new engines which would allow them to place them on the EU market, yet. Instead, they are now offering these for the time being, before they begin production of new models:

Lada Priora:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/LADA_Priora_2170_front.jpg/800px-LADA_Priora_2170_front.jpg

More pics of the Priora, incl. interior: http://www.auto-car-shop.com/18244/lada-priora-and-r90-project-moscow-2010-video/

Here are pictures of the estate/station wagon version:
http://www.autoweek.com.ua/test-drive/2009/05/07/080205.html
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/autokauf/lada-priora-2171-russischer-kombi-fuer-9-990-euro-2767410.html

And soon the Lada Granta/Project R90 will enter production. It is obviously based on the Renault Logan.

http://autoeng.ru/archives/616

http://auto.dmir.ru/news/content/23196/R901_big.jpg

http://www.allcarz.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/lada-r90-foto.jpg

Interior: http://auto.dmir.ru/news/content/23196/glonass_big.jpg

And videos of the UAZ Patriot going through abuse :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyMkEs2yg-s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk2ccrkhLCM

And failing hard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePdxcjkPCa4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvQQJ8mbpMI

Maybe it's because the guy uses the stock tires, he has videos of driving in knee-deep snow with regular tires which look like slicks in that environment...

[T-5 Killer]

America in 1978 has far better looking cars then they do now. They all look the same, along with their Asian counterparts.

1970 Chevy Nova FTW!

Edit: My sister has the same 2009 mustang listed above, and my uncle has the 1967 mustang, and her mustang is the worlds biggest piece of ****. That thing is constantly needing maintenance, while my uncles 1967 barely needs any.

Are you high? Late '70s American cars are complete ****...I Don't know about the new S197/SN10 mustangs but my '95 Mustang Cobra just hit 160k and 12 years of owning it and no major problems...



I would say that the 80's and 90s where the worst for the Mustang. 69 and prior where the greatest years for it. the Mach 1 from 1971 to 73 where great (cousin owned 1971 Mach 1, drove that thing to the ground), that beast was amazing.

IMHO the '87 to '93 Mustang was the closest to the original '60s Mustang Lightweight, simple and inexpensive. I have a quite a few '80 and '90 'stangs and love them to death.

[sepheronx]

Are you high? Late '70s American cars are complete ****...I Don't know about the new S197/SN10 mustangs but my '95 Mustang Cobra just hit 160k and 12 years of owning it and no major problems...

Far from. Maybe late models where a bitch with issues like electronics and rust (well, parts where not really starting to get galvanized till late 80s to 90s). And I cannot believe you would equate 90's mustang = Good. And with no major problems. What are the minor problems?


IMHO the '87 to '93 Mustang was the closest to the original '60s Mustang Lightweight, simple and inexpensive. I have a quite a few '80 and '90 'stangs and love them to death.

Now you are high. The late 80's mustangs may have been lightweight and inexpensive, but they where complete ****.

[T-5 Killer]

Far from. Maybe late models where a bitch with issues like electronics and rust (well, parts where not really starting to get galvanized till late 80s to 90s). And I cannot believe you would equate 90's mustang = Good. And with no major problems. What are the minor problems?



Now you are high. The late 80's mustangs may have been lightweight and inexpensive, but they where complete ****.

LOL rust WTF is that? :p The only problems I have had have been a fuel pump going out and a distributor but both are easy and cheap fixes sub $100(I do all my own car repairs). Its weird that you would say Fox body mustangs are complete **** when they are some of the most beloved mustangs. I think you just hate them because you have had a bad experience with one.

[LS1 Miata]

The 2010s carried over the same engines from 2005-2009. Only in 2011 did the new 5.0/3.7 come out.

Oops. :oops:

[Alex G]

It funny to see how some people show concept cars to show that Russian got good cars. Fact is - right now they dont how not even single car that would be any good. Lada sucks in comparison with any other cars available. Sorry, but Priora looks as if it came from 90ies. UAZ? It got good tech, but design (beside Hunter as its classic look for UAZ already) looks like cheap SUV from years ago. Other car manufacturer dont have much to offer too. They had more then enough time to fix it, they didnt. I dont really have much hope left in them. I hope that they would finally make new car that does look as new car and has new tech, but i dont really believe in it happening any soon. They were talking big before i left Russia and in that time instead of new cars many of them just did go bankrupt.

[Meatwad]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/volga-01.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/chiokanognax/volga-07.jpg

Now that is a good looking car, best Russian car I've seen. It's got style.

[Extobulite]

Volga Gaz M-21 tuning (on BMW 6 series platform):

http://media.meta.ua/files/pic/0/22/140/ljMBCJs9ky.JPG

:)

if hood/front was a little longer it couldve passed as a luxury sports car.

[gaijinsamurai]

I'm going to extend your dark era and say from 1971-1998.

x2. The new and the pre-1971 Mustangs kick ass. Those 70's-90's models were a void. I remember in the mid 80's, when the turbo-charged SVO came out, and I thought it might be a good thing, but it turned out to be a piece of ****, just like most other American cars of the era.

[Hyde]

It funny to see how some people show concept cars to show that Russian got good cars. Fact is - right now they dont how not even single car that would be any good. Lada sucks in comparison with any other cars available. Sorry, but Priora looks as if it came from 90ies. UAZ? It got good tech, but design (beside Hunter as its classic look for UAZ already) looks like cheap SUV from years ago. Other car manufacturer dont have much to offer too. They had more then enough time to fix it, they didnt. I dont really have much hope left in them. I hope that they would finally make new car that does look as new car and has new tech, but i dont really believe in it happening any soon. They were talking big before i left Russia and in that time instead of new cars many of them just did go bankrupt.

To show that Russia has good cars? There was a question about what kind of manufacturers are there in Russia, that was the question that has been answered.

[Alex G]

To show that Russia has good cars? There was a question about what kind of manufacturers are there in Russia, that was the question that has been answered.

If they dont produce good cars they tend to close as several manufacturer did in last years. Or you can ask what car manufacturers are in some country and list some minor firms that produce several hundred cars in year. Real question is if there are manufacturer that have industrial ability to build, finance power to make it happen and some engineers to develop a new car. If you ask it that way, then it doesnt looks bright for Russian car industry.

[Hyde]

If they dont produce good cars they tend to close as several manufacturer did in last years. Or you can ask what car manufacturers are in some country and list some minor firms that produce several hundred cars in year. Real question is if there are manufacturer that have industrial ability to build, finance power to make it happen and some engineers to develop a new car. If you ask it that way, then it doesnt looks bright for Russian car industry.

I only listed the 3 major firms which sell tens of thousands of cars in Russia a year. I think even GAZ sells some good amount, but am not sure.

They have a lot of catching up to do, Lada seems to be getting help from Renault (they hold a 25% stake), TagAZ is already designing own cars and will probably get Korean or Chinese technology (given their history), UAZ I have no idea and GAZ also no idea. They can't catch up without foreign help, they simply have no assets in that area.

[eATS]

personally America hasn't made a decent car since 1969

[asch]

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6637/testuazpatriotsport.jpg

Can any of the Russian speaking members sum up this test? How did the Patriot perform? I am really interested to know if its any good. Thanks :)
don't know of situation now, but Patriots was ****ed up from the beginning. my friend's company buyed one in 2006, and they towed this pos to service twice even before it has 5000 km. then, all of a sudden, we lost an axle, thing just suddently fall out.
all in all, cheap materials, fcuked up assembly, poor qc.

[DaveDash]

personally America hasn't made a decent car since 1969

The 300c isn't bad.

[sidewinderl]

lol what's with the fox and sn95 hate...the 96-98 Cobra was a Terminator without a blower and it arguably has the greatest engine block ever put in a Mustang. Nevermind that the aftermarket has so much experience with the fox/sn95 platform that they can easily make those cars handle better than most cars out there, and for not a whole lot of money. Nevermind all the Saleens, Roush's, Kenny Browns, Steedas etc that came out of that era. It was a damn good time for Mustangs and it keeps getting better.

[ayanami_tard]

i am disappointed by the lack of love towards asian cars