Military use of the FN P90?

[SILENT SCOPE]

Hi guys, nice to become a member of this site. I'm a big 'fan' of the Fabrique Nationale P90, but I have only herd of one incident involving the P90. Here is a photo I found of Peruvian Delta Force operators using this weapon (yes, there is a Peruvian Delta Force), during the Japanese Embassy siege in '96 I think:

http://www.gun-world.net/fn/p90/1997.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/fn/p90/19.jpg

Anyways I'm just wondering if you guys know of any other times the P90 was used. Thanks! BTW that P90 with the EOTech sight on my sig is a replica.

[Henk]

probably the dutch korps commando troepen counter terrorist teams used them in the arrest of war criminals in former yoegoslavia, here is a story, http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/warcrimes.html
and here are some pics
http://www.mindef.nl/home/pictures/8078.pdf
_____________________________________
He who wants peace must prepare for war.

[Smintjes]

I was talking to one of the armourers of the Belgian DSU (former SIE - former Groupe Diane: Federal Anti-Terror and Special Response team) a few weeks ago, and he told me DSU has recently switched from MP5 to P90, as standard entry gun. He wasn't very happy about it, he told me the P90 has more regular jams than the MP5-family because the bullets have to make a 90 degree turn when they leave the clip. Also, reloads are slower.

[ShotOver]

I thought this weapon was going to be used as a Tank/APC crew personal weapon?

[SILENT SCOPE]

I thought this weapon was going to be used as a Tank/APC crew personal weapon?

That is what it was organically intended for, but because of the stopping power (I'm hopping that you guys know that the 5.7x 28mm round is designed to 'tumble' in a humans body) and its ability to penetrate what is it? 48 layers of kevlar!? the P90 has made for a good SF/CT/SWAT weapon. However I have herd of some problems with the magazine and related, but then again I've herd of sites saying that they had no problems with the P90.


I fired several hundred rounds through the weapon and it never once failed to fire. I also watched a number of officers shoot the system for several hundred more rounds with the same result.

-Police and Security News

Henk- thank you so much for the .pdf- those pictures are sweet man.

[ShotOver]

What is its standard optic?
I see your signature, that P90 has some kind of reflex sight, can they be fitted with anything bigger?

[SILENT SCOPE]

I have a replica P90TR (Triple Rail), the normal, P90 has a built-in red-dot sight. BTW the sight on mine is a holographic sight- they are a bit different from a dot sight, but don't ask me how it works :lol:

*edit* the P90TR has a 1 inch Picatinny rail- you can mount just about any thing on it.

[ShotOver]

world.guns.ru says:

"P90 is built in bull-pup configuration, with polymer stock, and features built-in reflex collimator sight with 1X magnification and reticle automaticaly ajustable to the light level, as well as a set of the backup open sights."

Sounds good, does anyone have a photo of what you see if you look through this sight?

[SILENT SCOPE]

It was such a bitch to get these photos so enjoy them! :lol:

http://www.gun-world.net/fn/p90/sing1.gif
http://www.gun-world.net/fn/p90/sing2.gif
http://www.gun-world.net/fn/p90/P90-insidesight.jpg


They may take a while to load, because they are from a Japanese site.

[Bulkowski]

I heard something about something about SEALS adopting the P90 and another FN pistol, dunno which for sure

[Smintjes]

Don't know about the Seals, but the pistil you're talking about is probably the Five-seveN.

[thatguy96]

but because of the stopping power (I'm hopping that you guys know that the 5.7x 28mm round is designed to 'tumble' in a humans body) and its ability to penetrate what is it? 48 layers of kevlar!?
Its not so much stopping power as penetration characteristics. In fact, most of these new, much smaller armour defeating rounds have very poor "stopping power" (although I hear this term is a very poor one for what we're getting at), and there is simply no way one can expect the same wound track from a .20 or so caliber projectile as one can expect from a larger one. Also, in order to maintain its terminal ballistics at greater ranges, most of these cartridges are heavy (in the grain weight of their bullet), in order to stand up better against wind, obstacles, and so forth. However, this weight, combined with the usual high velocity of these projectiles in many way defeats the "tumbling" or "fragmentation" properties of the round, as at close ranges, the bullet simply travels in a straight line through the target.

A good case example of this exists in the current debate over just how effective the SS-109/M855 5.56x45mm cartridge is in the anti-personel role, especially when engaging live targets without the benefit of body armour (as is the usual case; most of the conflicts were are currently engaging in do not involve enemies who are well armoured on an individual level). Many claim that the older M193 cartridge (a over 10 grains lighter in weight) is much more effective, as it reliably appears to either tumble or fragment, given its high velocity, but fragile structure.

Lastly, I will mention that it is noted by many sources that FN's 5.7x28mm cartridge responds poorly to sound suppression ("silencers"), and with one attached loses anywhere from 40-70% of its effectiveness both in armour penetration and terminal characteristics.

I just thought I'd throw this in here, of course I've had this debate many times (between people who might actually know the real deal, and people like myself who could easily be talking out of their ass), so I'll also say that I am extremely biased against weapon systems like the FN P90, HK MP7, and other Machine-Dart guns.

[ibstolidude]

The rounds themselves were not "designed" to tumble. Although it is a charecteristic of them, it was not a "design" feature.

[SILENT SCOPE]

Lastly, I will mention that it is noted by many sources that FN's 5.7x28mm cartridge responds poorly to sound suppression ("silencers"), and with one attached loses anywhere from 40-70% of its effectiveness both in armour penetration and terminal characteristics.

I know little about real firearms, I've shot only a handful (Beretta M92f, semi -auto XM177- and thats about it), but I was under the impression that bullets only lost their effectiveness against armor if they were from a subsonic cartridge. From what I know, a sound suppressor it's self doesn't effect the effectiveness (effect the effectiveness :roll:) of a bullet. Can someone here who knows what he/she is talking about help me?


The rounds themselves were not "designed" to tumble. Although it is a charecteristic of them, it was not a "design" feature.

Sorry about that- poor choice of wording on my part.

[rob]

wel the supressor it self may not bring along lower stopping power but with the supressor normally comes the subsonic ammo. as is the case with the p90. i think that is what he is refering to.

[SILENT SCOPE]

If that is true rob, then doesn't that make the P90 like every other firearm that uses subsonic ammunition? I thought the P90, when compared to other suppressed firearms, preformed pretty well due to the fact that FN, along with Gem-Tech designed the SP90 sound suppressor themselves?

[thatguy96]

but with the supressor normally comes the subsonic ammo.
Exactly. This is the usual case with SMG's, where Medium Velocity (MV), or Low Velocity (LV; subsonic) ammo is used to maximize sound reduction. The operating practices for rifles seem to be different (as at those ranges, the disorientation a silencer provides can be very effective as well), as is the case with integrally suppressed SMG's, where full power ammo is often used.

It is true to say that "in this case" that the FN P90 is no poorer a performer than say a 6" AR-15/M16 type weapon or any other .223/5.56x45mm weapon firing subsonic ammo...but I'm not exactly in favor of that either. Working closely with a respected silencer manufacturer [GemTech] can give good results, but you can't change the facts, Sb193 (5.7x28mm FN Subsonic) still suffers greatly from the reduction in speed (its muzzle velocity out of the P90 is 415 m/s slower; 715 m/s vs 300 m/s).

This also doesn't change the fact that .45 ACP is subsonic by default...doesn't lose much when silenced...and while it doesn't have these "amazing" anti-armour characteristics, I've yet to see an engagement that nessecitates that over actually being able to stop the target.

[SILENT SCOPE]

I'm still wondering if one were to use normal, non-subsonic ammunition, would a suppressor effect its operation? I remember reading in SOF that some operators used suppressors on their M4A1s in Afghanistan (I think they were QD KAC suppressors, but that's getting off the topic) along with normal 5.56x 45mm cartridges so they wouldn't go deaf when raiding caves. Though the bullets themselves still produce a supersonic 'crack' but it is hard for the enemy to tell where it is coming from.