Greatest Defensive Battle by a Small Unit

[XASA]

You are surrounded. There's no relief in sight. Your small unit is outnumbered by at least ten to one. With the exception of one, the outcome is never in doubt-- you will be defeated! Which battle would you rank as the greatest defensive fight in terms of military, political and historical significance.

Thermopylae, where the 300 Spartans fought the Persians to gain time for their fellow Greeks. The Alamo, where a small band of Texicans kept Santa Ana's army at bay until Sam Houston could organize his army. Wake Island, where a Marine battalion kept the Japanese Navy at bay. Cassino, where German paratroopers changed the course of the Italian Campaign in WWII by warding off the entire Allied 5th Army. Or, my choice, Rorke's Drift, where a small British detachment valiantly held off thousands of Zulus. I'm listing small units, which is why you don't see Stalingrad or the Chosin Resoirvoir listed. Are there other battles that were equally as heroic? Please advise.

[Oxley]

Cassino was a joke, the allies bombed it to hell and back. Then the germans used the rubble as cover and held off the mountain for longer.

Which allies were involved in the fighting?

I know New Zealanders fought there.

[Zach R.]

I don't really know much about those, but I don't want to say Battle of the Black Sea or I'll get the crap beat out of me. But, you do know that's what people are gonna say. I'm currently researching the history side of the movie "We were Soldiers". If it really happened like that in the movie, I would say it would be that one. 4000 vs 395.

[Oxley]

I wouldnt think it was the same as in the movie man. That was afterall Hollywood.

Oh yer! If you make one of these topics you should add more to the list than just some well known ones. Maybe you should add some Australian battles in WW2 where small sections of Aussie diggers held off against thousands of Japanese troops.
;)

[James]

Thermopylae, hands down. 300 Spartans vs. what, 200,000 Persians? THOSE are some odds...

[duck]

First on my list. The two major uprisings in Warsaw, first in the jewish ghetto and then the larger all over town. Both show that in even in your darkest hour you can regain your pride and dignity. If the soviets would not have blocked all supplies to the polish resistance, the latter one might even have succeeded.

Then, on the eastern front, the numerous small-unit defensive battles during the russian winter offensive 41-42. Some german units were cut off for months, but were supplied from the air and survived against overwhelming odds until relieved in the spring.

And, last but not least, the handful of british royal marines defending South Georgia Island in 1982. They held off far superior argentine forces for hours and even damaged an argentinian warship in the process. The best thing about this battle was that next to no-one was killed unlike in the massacres mentioned above.

[Oxley]

Yeah, those two uprisings in Warsaw in WW2 were pretty heroic. To bad the russians couldnt come in with supplies to help them out.
Germans used everything they had against that uprising, and it lasted a month or somthing.

War is full of heroic battles, and small fights nobody hears of.

[Rantanplan]

"the russians couldnt come in with supplies to help them out"

?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

The Russians didn't want to Help the Poles!!! They waited and watched how the Germans made a massacre because they couldn't accept that some Poles and Jews could liberate themself! It sounds better for the Propaganda if the the mighty red Army liberates Warzaw and not some wretched Poles.

[Oxley]

I read the russians were held up over a river, and couldnt get to the city.

The poles started the uprising becuase they heard the russian guns, and thought they would be there soon.

[Rantanplan]

That the Poles thought that the Russians would help them is true but as far I know is that Stalin gave the Order that hte Red Army had to rest and wait until the Germans had knocked down the Uprising.

[Oxley]

wow, i did'nt know that :o

Thanks for the info

[XASA]

The Warsaw uprisings certainly ranks with great battles by an outnumbered foe. I'd be interested in hearing about Australian small unit battles that rank with the ones I started this thread with. Tobruk, because it involved large units, also wasn't listed. The Germans who fought in Russia in WWII certainly were heroic, but since they were initially the aggressor and, again, large units were involved, I didn't feel they were appropriate for this poll. If someone has other examples, please advise.

So far as the Polish Uprising in 1944, the Russians wanted to install their own government with Poles who were communists and who had fought alongside them, which is why they allowed the Polish partisans, who were affiliated with the Poles in Great Britain and wanted to install a democracy after the war, to be wiped out.

[Oxley]

http://www.jahitchcock.com/kokoda.html

Read that mate, that is full of Australian courage.

quotes:
"After four days of non-stop and often hand-to-hand fighting in which over 500 Japanese were killed"

"Brigadier Potts had roughly 1000 men against over 6000 Japanese."

Small story, this man recieved the Victoria Cross.

"In another Australian position, Corporal Lindsay Bear took command after his officer had been killed and his Sergeant wounded. The situation seemed hopeless as the Japanese threatened to break through the Australian position and overrun the whole battalion. The wounded Corporal Bear was manning a bren gun and was weak from blood loss. He passed the gun to the man next to him , Private Bruce Kingsbury (pictured at the right). Suddenly, Kingsbury leapt up, and firing the bren from his hip, charged the Japanese positions through a storm of enemy machine gun fire. He cleared a path of 100 meters before being shot down by a sniper. Kingsbury’s action stopped the Japanese breakthrough and restored the battalions position. Kingsbury was awarded Australia’s highest medal for bravery, the Victoria Cross. Later his mates said he’d thrown his life away to save theirs."

[Oxley]

Not entirely "small unit" battles, but 6jap to 1Australian ratio is pretty bad.

[Royal]

In South Georgia the Royal's also shot down a helo and damaged a sub (it's still there) - all with 84mm Carl Gustavs.

But I'd go for the battle of Mirbat in the Oman. An 8 man SAS team held out against several thousand Adoo until finally relieved. The OC (Capt Mike Keeley) got an MC. There are still calls for a VC for Sgt Labalaba (a Fijiian NCO who was killed). As Keeley was the only officer there (and he died on a training exercise in the late '70's) it seems unlikely.

[Beloved Shiv]

My vote's for Thermopylae, although I'm intrigued the Korean Chosin Reservoir was omitted. Mirbat's a dead cert for anyone familiar with the SAS' history.

And while the Somali numbers I believe are still essentially estimates, Op Irene wouldn't qualify for this list?

[Vance]

Texicans? What the hell is that?

[Gordon]

Royal, I read it was a few hundred Adoo (got that from various different books), just wondering which one of us is nearer the mark ... considering your history I expect you're more in the know than I am.

[EvanL]

I read about a battle in Croatia where a group of 100 Canadian soldiers managed to hold off 1000s of attacking serbs until they were relieve by a group of 600 Belgians who couldnt hold them off. Its in a book called "Tested Mettle".

[Seiyuuki]

There were 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.

Don't forget the 101st Airborne at Bastogne in WW2.

[XASA]

I stand corrected: 300 Spartans it was.

Bastogne was a brave stand but not a small unit action.

"Texican" was what many Texans called themselves during the revolution up until the annexation of the state into the U.S.

Somalia and BHD had many courageous acts including two CMH winners but it was a police action that went horribly wrong; the mob that was involved wasn't by any means a trained military force.

I'm learning in this thread about Mirbat and look forward to more details.

The Aussies in the Pacific during WWII was certainly a commendable feat of arms but, as noted, it was a fairly large unit and 6 to 1 odds against Diggers isn't a fair fight-- the Aussies will win every time ;)

[Herrmannek]

First Battle of WWII at Westerplatte


Polish garnison defending 7 days with:
205 troops
40 pistols
160 rifles
41 machine guns
* 16 heavy-mg
* 17 hand-mg
* 8 light-mg
one cannon 75mm, 300 shells, destoyed after 28 shots 1-st day
4 mortars 81 mm,860 shells, destoyed after 104 shots 2-nd day
2 AT cannons 37 mm
~1000 grenades

from Nazis:
2600 troops
diving bombers Stukas
mortar-howitzers 110mm
dreadnought "Schleswig Holstein"
*4 x 280 mm
*10 x 150 mm
*4 x 88 mm guns

Garnison survived:
17 huricane shellfires
14 ground assaults
19 night escapades
dive bombings

Garnison eventually surrended.

Polish loses: 15 KIA with one murdered after surrending,13 heavy wounded & 30 slightly wounded.

German loses: ~1000 WIA & KIA exact number unknown

Small map:
http://www.zweglarz.republika.pl/mapa_west.jpg

[Schuster]

I read about a battle in Croatia where a group of 100 Canadian soldiers managed to hold off 1000s of attacking serbs until they were relieve by a group of 600 Belgians who couldnt hold them off. Its in a book called "Tested Mettle".

Hey Evan Lloyd I've Never Read Tested Mettle. But i think your Talking about the Medak Pocket.. It was a Mechanized battalion (At the time i think it was 4 rifle companys and some support coys making up 900 soldiers) Of canadians Stopping the ethnic cleansing of a Large predominatly serbian area of south east croatia known as the krajina by the Croatian army. i'm not to certain of the force facing the Canadians but after 15 Hours of fighting 27 Croats were reported dead with out one serious canadian casualty. The Medak Pocket was the center of the fighting where the canadians were consentrated i think... you may be talking about something else though.

[Ratamacue]

My vote goes to Wake Island. Some 450 Marines equipped with WW1-era equipment repelled 2 Japanese invasions with minimal casualties. The only reason they surrendered was because their CO was out-of-contact with the unit and thought the Japs had overrun the island.

Chosin Reservoir and Bastogne are also great situations, but involved large units.

[EvanL]

Yeh im not refering to the battle of the medak pocket. But thanks for the explanation, im sure most here have no idea about that battle.

[Chris1]

I'm learning in this thread about Mirbat and look forward to more details.

More information can be found Here (http://home.hccnet.nl/22.sas/) click on Mirbat.

[Royal]

Royal, I read it was a few hundred Adoo (got that from various different books), just wondering which one of us is nearer the mark ... considering your history I expect you're more in the know than I am.

Judging by Chris1's link, I stand corrected. I've not looked at the battle since I was doing YO training (a good few years ago). I know the numbers are debatable as the Adoo carried away their dead and wounded. I am sure though that Kealy (my spelling mistake previously) got an MC rather than a DSO.

[Gordon]

I am sure though that Kealy got an MC rather than a DSO.

Yeh, i reckon you're right ... as far as I remember, which aint too far though ;) , it was an MC.

[volfram]

Battle of Camerone,Mexico 1863.60 foreign legionnaires fought against 1800 Mexicans.Few survive.30 years later Mexican army build a monument to honor legionnaires.

[Argo AdAm]

about Cassino

Which allies were involved in the fighting?

I know New Zealanders fought there.

Poles, of course ;) And they as a first allied troops at last occupied this hill, hoisting Polish and Britain flags over it

I'm very glad to see that you guys know something about The Warsaw Uprising. It's interesting that the 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade was planned to jump into Warsaw to help, but allied command canceled this idea b/c officially it was very hard to transfer soldiers so far from UK. Polish parachutist was very angry about that but finally they fought in "Market Garden". BTW If you've seen "A bridge to far" you may remember G. Hackman (-graet actor) who was playing gen. Sosabowski (-great person) seing in Polish - "Sznur!" (ang. rope!) when Poles were crossing a river to help the Red Devils in Arnhem.

My egzample of Greatest Defensive Small Unit Battle comes from a Polish military history too. This is one of the most famous battles of WWII for Poles. It's called in Poland "The Defence of Westerplatte". You probably know something about it. Herrmannek ;) wrote about that.
It started 1st of September 1939 at 4.45 a.m. when German WW1-old battleship "Schleswig Holstein"(had arrived at Gdansk for a 'courtesy call'...) fired a first shot on Polish ammunition depot and installation in Westerplatte near Free City of Gdansk (ger. Danzig). And the WW II began. Polish positions: few buildings prepared as bunkiers, a brick wall, several trench systems, were defended by circa 150 - 180 soldiers and a very small number of haevy weapons: two 37 mm anti-tank cannons, one 75 mm cannon, two or four (?) 81 mm mortars and machine guns (almost no AA guns). Germans in greatly superior force were constantly attacking from all sides, from the sea - battleship and other warships, land - infantry (aot. Marinesturmkompanie, SS, SA, Danzig Police) and air - Stukas. Poles were completelly surrounded, but they didn't want to give up. They thought their fight has a sense, they hoped that maybe some help will come. Before the war the defence of their positions was meant to last only a few hours or at the worst two days untill another Polish troops would arrive. They was very glad when on the 3th day of fighting they heard on the radio that UK and France declared war to Germans, but as you know their hopes were vain b/c UK were not able to do something those times and France... - never mind. Defenders were right in one thing, their fight had a sense. All Poland knew about their bravery b/c all the time Polish radio reported to the world "Westerplatte still fights on" and it was very important to rest of Polish army and people. Battle finished after one week. Polish commander - major Henryk Sucharski surrendered Polish positions only because there was no possibility to help the wounded anymore and there was to little ammunition to continue fight and of course there was no hope to win. Probably in fact maj. Sucharski wanted to surrender earlier b/c since the second day of defence he had been in nervous shock (?) from the Stuks raid but kpt. Franciszek Dabrowski practically took the command of the defence - and he did it well. After the battle Germans were surprised that there were so few Poles, they were imressed by the skill and intensity of the defence. Something about that tells numbers of casualties: Polish - only 15 killed but many wounded (almost everyone), Germans - about 300 - 400 killed and wounded but real number isn't known. German commander Friedrich Eberhardt allowed maj. Sucharski to keep his officer's sword (sabre) and Polish POW's were treated well.

"The Defence of Westerplatte" has still a great moral value for Poland b/c like many others polish battles showed what really means very old Polish army motto: "God, Honour and Homeland" . To be less pathetic that of course showed also how a small unit can stop a better equipped superior enemy by kicking their asses.

Another my another egzample - the defence of Red Devils in Arnhem commanded by Lt Col John Frost

[Beowulf]

Beachead- Level 27......
-b

[a. enders]

The dfense on a Belgian town.Not bastogne,or any from the 101st lexicon.Can't remember the details,but it was something like a fifteen to thirty man scout company (again,not sure,details furry) set about defending a town from a panzer column for two or three days at the outset of the offensive.....Wish I could remember the name...Maybe someone already mentioned.Think it was Citizen Soldiers (Ambrose of course,don't have the book with me).

[Kitsune]

Just to say something about Thermophylae: Initially this small place bettween rocks and the sea was defended by more than those Spartans. There were other Greek troops as well blocking the Persian way. But then a traitor showed the Persians a secret path, so that the Greeks could be surrounded. The Greeks knew that, so they withdraw...but Leonidas and 300 Spartans STAYED to further delay the Persians. They knew this would be suicide.
And the Persians attacked from both sides, but were repulsed again and again. So the Persian Great King send his Elite Corps, the Immortals, against them. But even they were beaten back. In the end the Persians decided to slew the Spartans with arrows.
None survived.

[Ngati Tumatuenga]

Camerone, as mentioned. 62 Legionnaires against 1800 plus, some say up to 3000 mexicans. After their ammunition was exausted the last six Legionnaires fixed bayonets and charged........

Rorke's Drift. B Coy 2nd/24th Regiment (later the South Wales Borderers) and a few stragglers from Isandhlwana, 139 in all, of whom 35 were sick or wounded vs approx 6000 Zulu warriors. 11 VC's awarded

Fox Coy at Tokong pass, November 1950. One Marine Rifle Coy vs two plus chicom Regiments.

Battery L at Nery, September 1 1914. Six thirteen-pounders of the Royal Horse Artillery vs a german cavalry division suported by two six gun batterys.Three guns never made it into action and by the end all the officers and 80% of the men in Battery L were casualties but they routed the germans. 3 VC's awarded

The 1st Battalion The Gloucestershire Regiment and Troop C 170th Independent Mortar Battery, vs the Chicom 187th infantry division plus elements of the 188th and 189th divisions at the Imjin river 22-25 April 1951. The Glosters were left with 5 officers and 34 men out of a battalion of 622.

[FrogMan]

Battle of Camerone.
62 Legionnaires + 3 Officers against 1200 infantry + 800 cavalry of mexican Army

You can read here (http://www.amicale-online.ca/Hrecite.html) the story of this battle.

[ogukuo72]

What about Arnhem?

[Light Fighter]

Its been a while since I had a history class but I recall reading about a fight in Vietnam that involved a small SF unit surrounded by NVA/VC and the soldiers on the ground kept calling in choppers to evacuate the area. Choppers were flying in and out of a base to resupply the unit and along went a soldier as a door gunner on one of the Hueys, he ended up getting out of the chopper and retreiving the remaining wounded US soldiers after himself taking many hits from AK rounds, he ended up getting the MOH but for the life of me cant remember the mans name.

[Merik]

Pleiku?

Thats just a guess, there were many SF camps in and around Vietnam but several were around the A Shau Valley which was the most deadliest.

[grendel]

Battle of Long Tan (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battles/long_tan.htm)
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Long Tan was an encounter battle where 108 soldiers of D Coy survived continual frontal assaults mounted by battalions of a reinforced NVA Regiment in the order of some 2500 NVA and VC troops.

- Major Harry Smith MC, who commanded Delta Six at Long Tan

[Ngati Tumatuenga]

Pork chop hill, 16-18 April 1953.

The defence of Kohima 6-18 April 1944

[wulfstan]

PT...
In answer to your question about which allies fought at casino, you name it;
brits, americans, aussies, south africans, new zealanders, indians, to name but a few. Should have just left them there surrounded and let them stave, and sent the rest of the forces somewhere else.

[Oxley]

Yeah, i never understood monte cassino, all those men fought in it, when they could of just bombed it again...?
The first airstrikes to destroy the large building that covered the mountain top was half a success. But it gave the Germans more rubble to hide in and to help them defend to mountain against many attacks.

Does anyone have a detailed story about monte cassino, i would like to learn a bit more about it.

Thanks everyone for your information :D

[Beloved Shiv]

{snip} Somalia and BHD had many courageous acts including two CMH winners but it was a police action that went horribly wrong; the mob that was involved wasn't by any means a trained military force. {Snip}

Firstly, I must say this thread is quickly becoming my favorite thus far. The wealth and breadth of information shared here is incredible.

Trying not to split hairs, I will concede the Somali aggressors were not a conventional military force. However a "mob" conotes only a large group of angry people acting with the intent of violence. It doesn't capture the fact that hundreds of heavily armed, gun battle-experienced clanners were dispatched by an overwhelming outnumbered group of young Rangers and a minority of operators. Irene itself certainly was not a police operation.

While not as staggeringly poetic a "last-stand" as Mirbat, please don't discount it as a failure. I'm sure you did not mean to imply it was insignificant, but your comments can be interpreted as such.

Perhaps that's better addressed in another thread (or has been).

[Argo AdAm]

Does anyone have a detailed story about monte cassino, i would like to learn a bit more about it.
There is something:
http://www.battleofmontecassino.com/ (day by day events, not only about Polish contribution in this battle as it may looks)
http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Fallshirmjager/cassino.htm
http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/cassino.htm

[XASA]

Shiv, I'm with you on how cool this thread has turned out. It goes to show this forum can be polite and informative without "flame wars," airsoft patter and childish combat fantasies.

I didn't mean to discount the brave and magnificent individual accomplishments of the Rangers and Delta in Somalia. I was following this heroic battle from the day it happen and read the series in the Philadelphia Inquirer before it was made into a book and long before it became a film. Perhaps describing the Somalians as a "mob" was too simplistic a term since it did consist of combat hardened if poorly trained militas. I was just trying to differentiate between "last stands" and what was essentially a failed "nab and grab" mission due to political and military ineptness at higher levels. Also, U.S. forces were able to fight their way out and return to base, while the other examples that were given on this thread, the units were totally isolated from any relief whatsoever. We should be thankful that it doesn't rank with the examples given.

[Ballistic]

Battle of Long Tan (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battles/long_tan.htm)
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Long Tan was an encounter battle where 108 soldiers of D Coy survived continual frontal assaults mounted by battalions of a reinforced NVA Regiment in the order of some 2500 NVA and VC troops.

- Major Harry Smith MC, who commanded Delta Six at Long Tan

I would agree.

[martinexsquaddie]

the battle of camerone a truly hopeless postion fought to the death simply because the legion decided to fight no vital postion to be held and the mexicans did take prisoners

[Beloved Shiv]

Shiv, I'm with you on how cool this thread has turned out. It goes to show this forum can be polite and informative without "flame wars," airsoft patter and childish combat fantasies.

I didn't mean to discount the brave and magnificent individual accomplishments of the Rangers and Delta in Somalia. I was following this heroic battle from the day it happen and read the series in the Philadelphia Inquirer before it was made into a book and long before it became a film. Perhaps describing the Somalians as a "mob" was too simplistic a term since it did consist of combat hardened if poorly trained militas. I was just trying to differentiate between "last stands" and what was essentially a failed "nab and grab" mission due to political and military ineptness at higher levels. Also, U.S. forces were able to fight their way out and return to base, while the other examples that were given on this thread, the units were totally isolated from any relief whatsoever. We should be thankful that it doesn't rank with the examples given.

Too true and quite consistent with what I presumed to be the balance of your opinion, having noted cogent comments from your name in my brief time bumping 'round here. I was also half-wary of a reticent remark fueling just such a flame war from the wilfully ignorant, some kid having only seen the movie, bought a vest and wished they "coulda been there."

Still no further mention from anyone of the Chosin Reservoir? I see scant mention across past threads - I'd recommend Owen's book A Frozen Hell. On par with BHD, but written by a soldier who fought and survived.

[Ratamacue]

Chosin was truly remarkable, but remember, this thread has to do with small units. Chosin was an entire Marine division (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).

When I first saw the thread title, though, Chosin did immediately come to mind.

[James]

The 1st Marine Division, the Royal Marines 41 Commando, and a small task force from the U.S. Army fought something like 5 Chinese divisions at Chosin in Nov/Dec 1950. It was a fighting retreat. I'm a bit biased, as I am a Marine, but I would say that things were never hopeless. :)

[StealthMode]

Thermopylae hands down. Although there is more information missing. The Thespians and Thebans joined the Spartans on the final stand and that amounted to a few thousand. The Spartans were the front line of defence in the pass and had already put back units for days already. (The pass was small so could not be rushed by superior numbers.) When a man named Ephialtes betrayed the Greeks and told the Persian King a way around the pass by way of goat trail, the Greeks knew the had to retreat to go and organize and build more ships to take the sea. The famous 300 stand was when the final Spartans defeneded the body of their dead king, they were slaughtered from a distance by arrows and spear as they were feared at close range.
This is by far the greatest, most dramatic scale, and important event in that particular war. Several thousand Greeks held off more than 100,000 awaiting troops (estimates are around 200,000) so that the rest of the Greeks could reorganize. If the Spartans and the remaining thousands had not stayed, the greeks would have been ran down and slaughtered on the retreat. Their is also evidence that the remaining Spartans were offered their lives if they gave up the kings body so the Persian King could use it as a device of fear to the other Greek city-states, they refused and died defending the body AND much more. Spartan pride as warriors saved thousands of Greek lives and evenutally allowed them to regroup and defeat the Persians later!!! They fought for days, every morning waking up to prepare for more units to attack, unbeleivable.

[Merik]

We need more threads like this one. I am truly enjoying reading all of these replies.

[digrar]

My vote is for Long Tan as well, 1 rifle company (D Coy 6 RAR) of just over 100 men against 275 NVA Regt and D445 VC Provincial Battalion plus one other NVA battalion in support.

Enemy Casualties

245 KIA (Body Count)

3 Captured

150 further KIA (Subsequent Intelligence estimate)

500 WIA (Subsequent Intelligence estimate)

Friendly Casualties

D Coy: 17 KIA 21 WIA

Other: 1 KIA from 3 Tp 1 APC Sqn

6 RAR: 3 WIA



Long Tan day on the 18 August is also Australia's Viet Nam Veterans day.
I spent 5 years in 6 RAR so I might be a bit biased.

[DeZzErX]

Well, i must say that one off the greatest battles in my opinion was that of the Belgium Para-commando's in Rwanda... When a peace-keeping mission went completly wrong...

...

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - Lt. Thierry Lotin, leader of a 10-man Belgian patrol, shouted into the radio: ''We've been disarmed and taken I don't know where. Two of my men are being beaten. Colonel, they're going to lynch us!''


That was the last communication received from Lotin. Before long, all 10 would be dead - beaten, stabbed, hacked, shot and mutilated by Rwandan soldiers in a frenzy of hatred toward the Belgian U.N. peacekeepers.

Belgians want to know why U.N. peacekeepers made no effort to rescue Lotin's patrol. At one point, according to the committee, Maj. Gen. Romeo Dallaire, the Canadian commanding the U.N. force, drove within 20 yards of where the paratroopers were being held and saw blue-helmeted Belgian soldiers on the ground. Yet he did not stop. He did not radio or telephone his headquarters.

The committee also is asking why the United Nations and the governments of Belgium, France and the United States did not act on warnings passed along by Dallaire that Hutus were planning massacres and might try to provoke or even kill Belgian peacekeepers.

The drama began shortly after the death of Rwandan President Juvenal Habyarimana in a still unexplained plane crash on April 6, 1994. Lotin and his men were given orders about 2 a.m. the next day to take Prime Minister Agathe Uwilingiyimana to the radio station to make an appeal for calm.

When the 10 peacekeepers arrived at the prime minister's house, soldiers of the Hutu army opened fire with rifles and grenades. After about two hours the Belgians ran out of amunition, the prime minister ignored Lotin's advice and fled. She was caught and murdered.

A Hutu officer ordered the surrounded and outgunned Belgians to give up their weapons or be killed. Lotin's battalion commander, Lt. Col. Jo Dewez, authorized him by radio to do so.

Lotin and his men were taken to a Rwandan military base, where an officer accused Belgian troops of shooting down the president's plane. Soldiers at the base went wild with machetes, bayonets and guns. Four of the paratroopers were cut down immediately.

Lotin and the rest ran to a building, where another was trapped and killed. A Rwandan soldier tried to break into the room where the survivors barricaded themselves, but Lotin killed him with a pistol he had kept hidden and grabbed the soldier's AK-47 rifle.

The Belgians held out with those two weapons for three hours against an entire Rwandese Batallion, when grenades dropped into the room through the roof ended resistance. All the bodies were stripped of valuables and mutilated.

Two weeks later, faced with a shocked and distraught nation, Belgium's government withdrew its 450-man battalion from the U.N. force in Rwanda.

[gaz]

The 1st Marine Division, the Royal Marines 41 Commando, and a small task force from the U.S. Army fought something like 5 Chinese divisions at Chosin in Nov/Dec 1950. It was a fighting retreat.

I don't think that term actually appears in any official history of the battle, I think it was always deemed something along the lines of "Advancing in a different direction".

[Ngati Tumatuenga]

The battle involving Fox Company at the Toktong pass was part of the overall Chosin reservoir operation. Captain William Barber was tasked with holding the pass in order to allow the Fifth and Seventh Marine Regiments to 'advance in a different direction' from Yudam-ni about seven miles north of the pass to Hargaru-ri, approx the same distance south of the pass. The 220 men of Fox Coy were up against the approx 10,000 strong Chicom 59th Division whose mission it was strangle the American route along the fourteen miles from Yudam to Hagaru. Fox Coy held the pass from the 27 Nov to the 2 Dec. By the end just 82 men of Fox Coy were able to walk away but the Fifth and Seventh made to it the airfield at Hagaru where they regrouped, resupplied and flew out their wounded before fighting on to Hungnam and safety.

[Barabas]

This has gott to be the most underhanded action. Not only did 200 Greeks take on 20k, but they lost a king in the battle. It wasn't victorious but by far there was more at stake.

[Oxley]

Yeah, i heard about those Belgians...poor guys :(

That has to rank within the highest of great small unit defensive battles.

Gordan and Shughart in 1993 could also be pretty high up there, 2 men going in to help out a small crew against hundreds or somalia militia...

[Ratamacue]

PT does have a point there. While you may or may not consider Gordon/Shughart to be a "unit," it certainly was a truly heroic last stand. They fought until they ran out of ammo, and died fighting.

[MEGR]

The Israelis in almost every war they fought.

[Henk]

What about the battle at Bloedrivier 1838 in South Africa where 500 farmers defeated 12000 zulu wariors.
____________________________
He who wants peace must prepare for war.

[California Joe]

Rodney King vs. LAPD

[budanski]

rofl

[Skyranger]

Thermopylae by far. They were up close and personal with the enemy. read Gates of Fire and you will get a glimpse of true courage and leadership.

[Beloved Shiv]

The Israelis in almost every war they fought.

Another excellent submission from out of "left field" - no other mention of the IDF historically thus far that I saw. 'Ashamed I didn't think to suggest it myself.

[James]

Thermopylae is leading... YES!

[StealthMode]

Gates of Fire is a great book, I learned much from that book as well as 2 courses I took in college about Thermopylae and the wars of that time. Although many battles that have been mentioned are no doubt heroic, as well as many other things against great odds, Thermopylae was by far the most important battle in that War and maybe the world's future progress. Imagine if Persia was allowed to POUR into Greece after they ran down the main Greek army at Thermopylae? The Persians would have won the war as their would not have been a significant resistance on land or sea. What would have become of the ROMANS to come???? If Greece was taken, the coast of Italy would have been as well. Remember, the Romans formed many things from the Greeks including law and democracy..... if the Romans never developed out of a Persian empire in Greece, where would the modern world be today? We may owe alot more to those heroic Spartan soldiers that fought to the death and made so many fight harder because of them.

[koster]

What about the Pervomaika/Pervomaiskoe?
Thats when 10 GRU operatives held a perimeter (border between Chechnya and Degestan )against 400+ terrorists (most of whom were stoned), without support (no HMG's, nor APC's).

[FallenAngel]

The 1st Marine Division, the Royal Marines 41 Commando, and a small task force from the U.S. Army fought something like 5 Chinese divisions at Chosin in Nov/Dec 1950. It was a fighting retreat. I'm a bit biased, as I am a Marine, but I would say that things were never hopeless. :)

Umm....right on about the other units in the fight with the Marines, a little off about the enemy.

They were surrounded by something like 22 enemy divisions. They ended up completely destroying 7. (highest kill ratio in US history I believe)

Also, a Chinese div. = 16500+ men, while the 1st Mar. Div. only numbered approx. 12,000 men plus a few hundred Royals and Army men.

As for the last stand....Thermopylae without question. There were 300 Spartan warriors, plus 900 helot hoplites (Helots were the surfs of the Spartan kingdom and they agmented the Spartarns in a *light* infantry role.) and as has been mentioned, something like 2000-2500 Thebeans and Thespians. The total force was numbered something close to 4000 Greeks plus the Athenian navy. However, the way the straight was, only 300-500 Greeks could fight at a time, thus allowing troops to rest up in the rear.

versus an (est.) 200,000- 250,000 Persain inf./cav. and a navy numbering in the tens of thousands.

And on the last day, only the 300 Spartans stayed while the rest retreated. They were killed by volleys of arrows that (quoate)"blocked out the sun"(/quote) to which one Spartan warrior said (quote)"it is best as we will get to die in the shade"(/quote)

One has to wonder what kind of an ass-kicking the Spartans could have unleashed if they had committed all 10,000 Spartan warriors and not just the 300 men of the "royal guard".

[James]

I thought it was more than 5 Chinese Divisions, but I couldn't remember. 22 is a lot! I read somewhere that the CHinese lost 15,000 men to hypothermia in one night.

[Argyll]

I'll resurect this one a bit,but because of the current climate between certain countries I'm not expecting a "Hell yes"
but I'd go for the French Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu

[Hullebullen]

I've seen that the french foreign legion at Camerone has already been mentioned. Also the the Battle of the black sea market in Mog.

[James]

If it hasn't been mentioned already...

The fighting retreat of the British Expeditionary Force from Mons in August, 1914 earned a place in the history books. The Brits were grossly outnumbered, but they kept on stopping and fighting it out with the Germans, delaying their advance towards Paris for a few crucial days. At one point, the advancing Germans thought they were being engaged by machine guns, when in fact British riflemen had been given a command something like, "Enemy in the open, five hundred yards, fifteen rounds rapid fire, FIRE!"

Anyway, just a thought.

EDIT - I guess the BEF wasn't that small of a unit though...

[S'13]

The Warsaw ghetto rebellion. It took the Germans less time to conquer the whole of Poland then to crush this rebellion which was carried out by a few hundred fighters.

[S'13]

The Warsaw Ghetto was the largest of the Jewish ghettos established by the Germans in Poland during the World War II.
Background:
Plans to isolate the Jewish population of Warsaw in a ghetto first circulated immediately after the German occupation of Poland in 1939. At the time, the administration of the Generalgouvernment had not been fully organized, and there were conflicting interests among the three major players: the civilian administration, the military, and the SS. Under these circumstances, the Jewish Council, or Judenrat, headed by Adam Czerniakow, was able to delay the establishment of the Ghetto by one year, mainly by appealing to the military to consider how Jews were a valuable labor resource.

The Warsaw ghetto was finally established by the German Generalgouverneur of Poland Hans Frank in October and November 1940. At this time, the population of the ghetto was estimated to be about 380,000 people. During the next 18 months, Jews from smaller cities and villages were brought into the ghetto, while diseases (esp. typhoid) and starvation (rations for Jews were officially limited to just 184 calories per day, as opposed to 1,800 for Poles and 2,400 for Germans in Warsaw) kept the inhabitants at about the same number. On July 22, 1942, the mass expulsion of the inhabitants started; in the next 52 days (till September 12, 1942) about 300,000 people were taken to the Treblinka extermination camp or murdered on the spot.

The situation for the remaining 55,000 to 60,000 Jews changed for the better initially: The famine ended and the once overcrowded houses were largely empty. The Jews either worked in German factories within the ghetto or lived in hiding.

During the next six months, what was left of several political organizations was brought together under name ŻOB (Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa, Jewish Fighting Organization), headed by Mordecai Anielewicz, with 500 persons; another 250 were organized in the ŻZW (Żydowski Związek Walki, Jewish Fighting Union). The members of these groups had no illusions about the German plans and wanted to die fighting. Their armament of the ŻOB consisted largely of handguns, homemade explosives and Molotov cocktails; the ŻZW was better armed through better contacts to the Polish underground outside the ghetto.

The Uprising:
On January 18, 1943, the first instance of armed resistance occurred when the Germans started the second expulsion of the Jews. The Jewish fighters had some success, the expulsion stopped after four days and the ŻOB took control of the ghetto, building dozens of fighting posts and operating against Jewish collaborateurs.

During the next three months, all inhabitants of the ghetto prepared for what they realized would be a final struggle. Hundreds of bunkers were dug under the houses, most connected through the sewer system, linked up with the central water supply and electricity, some featuring camouflaged air supplies and tunnels leading to safer areas of Warsaw.

The final battle started on the eve of Passover, April 19, 1943 and the uprising ended on May 16. Nevertheless, sporadic shooting could be heard in the area of the Ghetto throughout the summer of 1944.

German sentry units near the ghetto walls were sporadically attacked by Polish units from AK and GL. One Polish unit from AK, namely KB under command of Henryk Iwański, fought inside ghetto.

After the uprising, area of Ghetto became the place where Polish prisoners and hostages where executed by Germans. Later there was found there concentration camp KL Warschau in the area of ghetto. During Warsaw uprising Polish AK unit "Zoska" was able to save 380 Jewish prisoners of concentration camp, most of whom immedietely joined AK.

[ogukuo72]

Maybe we need some criteria to judge, like the strategic impact of the action on the war in general. Reading the account above, the Warsaw uprising sounds like a heroic but futile action.

[Herrmannek]

Maybe we need some criteria to judge, like the strategic impact of the action on the war in general. Reading the account above, the Warsaw uprising sounds like a heroic but futile action..

It have great psycho impact on Warsaw citizens and probably on current IDF(but i'm not sure Uouo should know, because it was first great battle in XX century fought buy jewish people). Such acts of bravery doesn't fade in past and are ussualy national memorials.

[ogukuo72]

Maybe we need some criteria to judge, like the strategic impact of the action on the war in general. Reading the account above, the Warsaw uprising sounds like a heroic but futile action..

It have great psycho impact on Warsaw citizens and probably on current IDF(but i'm not sure Uouo should know, because it was first great battle in XX century fought buy jewish people). Such acts of bravery doesn't fade in past and are ussualy national memorials.

Don't disagree with you on the idea of their bravery and sacrifice as an example. In that sense, their sacrifice was not futile.

I'm just saying that it doesn't really qualify as "greatest" because it did not bring about any impact on a strategic level that serves to further the cause they fought for.

I would list the Arnhem action as similarly heroic but futile. Major Frost's men held for four days against overwhelming odds, but the operation still failed. On the other hand, Pegasus Bridge would qualify as seizing the bridge is both a brilliant feat of arms, and of immense strategic importance - but Pegasus Bridge is an assault, not a defensive battle.

Using the same measure, Black Hawk Down won't qualify as a "greatest" defensive battle, although the element of small band of men against overwhelming odds are there. The action failed to serve a larger purpose in the end.

Using this measure, Alamo, Thermopylae, Mount Cassino and to a certain extent, Wake Island would qualify as they are desperate battles that bought time for the main force to recover. But Rouke's Drift - a heroic action too - would not, as it really didn't matter much if the garrison had withdrawn.

[Herrmannek]

ogukuo72 I also don't disagee with you, But those battles had great impact often non military on people, nations history and such so limiting topic only to those with instant starategic benefits is very unfair. Other factor with can determine class of battle are defenders and their dedication.

[S'13]

ogukuo72,
You are right the the uprising wasn't a strategical victory, but over 380 Jews were saved from extermination thanks to this action. Many of the fighters who survived emigrated to Israel and used there experience to help build the IDF. The uprising also had a big psychological effect on the Germans, many German soldiers refused entering the ghetto at night (for fear of Jewish ghost).

[Hussar]

Wizna - Poland september 1939. 720 Polish soldiers equipped with 6 light guns, 24 hmg, 18 lmg, 2 atr under the command of captain W. Raginis had positions in 6 heavy and 10 light bunkers (bunkers werent finished!!). They were fighting since 7 to 10 september 1939 against 19 Panzer Corps (2 Tanks divisions and one infantry division) - 30000 soldiers, 160 tanks. They hold german offensive for 2 days.
http://www.kampania.digimer.pl/b_wizna.htm (in polish)

[UoUo]

My grandfather was in the Polish army...just wnated to tell you that. ;)

[volfram]

My grandfather was in the Polish army...just wnated to tell you that. ;)
Mine too.

[Argo AdAm]

My grandfather was in the Polish army...just wnated to tell you that. ;)
Mine too.And mine too (he fought in Polsh-Soviet war in 1920), but it's obvious :lol: - we're both Polish...

[UoUo]

But i am not from Poland. ;)

[volfram]

But i am not from Poland. ;)
I know,it was joke.

[US_Frogman]

During the Vietnam War, a Ranger Recon platoon of six men stumbled onto a staging area for an entire NVA battalian. The men were surrounded and under heavy fire for several hours before they were airlifted (all still alive) out of the area. The NVA battalian however suffered such heavy casualties that is was forced to withdraw from the area.

[citizen-k]

My grandfather was in the Polish army...just wnated to tell you that. ;)

Mine too...

And no, I'm not from Poland as well...

[perdurabo]

one of the premiers or smth like that of Israel was teached in school in my home city Jelenia Góra , before 2WW Poland had the bigest population of Jews so it's quite obvious that meany of Israelis ancestors fought in Polish army:]
my wote is some of big battles of Hussaria ni 16-17century Kircholm or Kłuszyn or mayby Cecora?or Chocim? or..:)

[NcDeuce]

Many of the battles fought in Afghanistan that are not very well known throughout the public. For info on what really what went on in Operation Enduring Freedom, go out and read "The Hunt for Bin Laden" by Robin Moore.

There are some extremely intense fights in the book. One battle involved a small group of Delta Force operators being inserted by Little Birds into a small town. CIA intelligence, like in most cases, is bad. Instead of a few Taliban kids, the D-boys run into a large group of elite, hardcore bodyguards of Mullah Omar. The operators were heavily outnumbered but fought on and eventually slaughtered the Taliban and al-Qaeda forces. A Delta medic died of severe head wounds suffered in the battle en route to a hospital in Germany for surgery. Many were wounded but they overcame the odds.

Basically, the 5th Special Forces Group, 160th SOAR, 1st SFOD-D, Rangers, SEALS, and Air Force Special Ops took over Afghanistan. The other Special Forces Groups came in to relieve 5th Group so they could conduct operations in Iraq.

[Haiw]

Basically, the 5th Special Forces Group, 160th SOAR, 1st SFOD-D, Rangers, SEALS, and Air Force Special Ops took over Afghanistan. The other Special Forces Groups came in to relieve 5th Group so they could conduct operations in Iraq.

u left out a 'few' northern alliance soldiers... :roll:

[ogukuo72]

My vote goes to the operation in Vietnam in 1985 to rescue American POWs from the Vietnam War, and the 1987 operation in Afghanistan by the operator called Rambo, during which this one man killed thousands of enemy soldiers using nothing more than his trusted bow and his M60. ;)

[cut]

Cassino was a joke, the allies bombed it to hell and back. Then the germans used the rubble as cover and held off the mountain for longer.

Which allies were involved in the fighting?

I know New Zealanders fought there.

the ones I know/ can remember are

brits and indians on the high ground, new zealanders on the low ground

the freepolish forces were involved as were the free french further down the river, the french were the first to get a break through

and the american bombers (pointless as they turned out to be)

when germans were retreating back, Clark's forces were supposed to cut them off, instead he went for glory and let them go so that he could be the general to march into rome..

[SlowDog]

My vote goes to Major Kraft, not a very well known man in regard to the arnhem battle, or at least not to the general public. This man is infact the one who stopped and/or slowed the british airborne and airlanding troops from reaching the Rhine bridge in full force on the first day.

He guessed the objective of the british troops. And he placed his fighting force into a good defence line in the Wolfheze area to block the routes to the bridge. Only 2e batalion of Johnny Frost slipped past the south side of Krafts defence line. On the north most side Recce force was blocked from their attempt to reach the bridge and take it by surprise with special jeeps.

Krafts forces consisted of 435 men ranging from kids to veterans from all kind of origine.

[Tiger]

There are some extremely intense fights in the book. One battle involved a small group of Delta Force operators being inserted by Little Birds into a small town

Little Birds were used in Aghanistan ? I have read that their range was too short to be use from Pakistan...

[ibstolidude]

tf160soar wrote:
CIA intelligence, like in most cases, is bad.

Who are you (some kid by your other posts) to be making this comment?
What in the hell gives you the insight to make BOLD comments like this?
you didn't post - 'I read the intel is bad', 'I 've heard stories', 'the news once said'...blah blah blah.. you made a pretty definative comment. So back it up.

Why do people try and pawn this stuff off as fact? WERE YOU IN AFGHANISTAN? DID YOU EVER SEE THE RESULTS OF THE INTEL? Do you have ANY evidence other than a book?

- reading a book by Robin Moore that is designed to sell copies rather than tell the truth?
_____________________________
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! - HS

[Beowulf]

tf160soar wrote:
CIA intelligence, like in most cases, is bad.

Who are you (some kid by your other posts) to be making this comment?
What in the hell gives you the insight to make BOLD comments like this?
you didn't post - 'I read the intel is bad', 'I 've heard stories', 'the news once said'...blah blah blah.. you made a pretty definative comment. So back it up.

Why do people try and pawn this stuff off as fact? WERE YOU IN AFGHANISTAN? DID YOU EVER SEE THE RESULTS OF THE INTEL? Do you have ANY evidence other than a book?

- reading a book by Robin Moore that is designed to sell copies rather than tell the truth?
_____________________________
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! - HS

-hear hear...
-b

[James]

My vote goes to the operation in Vietnam in 1985 to rescue American POWs from the Vietnam War, and the 1987 operation in Afghanistan by the operator called Rambo, during which this one man killed thousands of enemy soldiers using nothing more than his trusted bow and his M60. ;)

You forgot about his enormous knife. But, I would have to agree. Rambo is THE operator. The one, the only... :lol:

[James]

Many of the battles fought in Afghanistan that are not very well known throughout the public. For info on what really what went on in Operation Enduring Freedom, go out and read "The Hunt for Bin Laden" by Robin Moore.


This doesn't fit with this thread. The U.S. attacked, and the Taliban and Al Quade were not successful with their defenses. Just a thought.

CIA intelligence, like in most cases, is bad.

:roll: is all I can say... Beowulf and ibstolidude said it well enough.

I did see a few of your posts in other threads, and it appears that over the past few days you have gotten quite a chip on your shoulder about the CIA. Where did these intense feelings come from?

[NcDeuce]

Have you people forgotten 9/11? Why am I pissed off at the CIA The "cell" system needs to be reformed. It takes too long for information to get from Point A to Point B. And when you have crappy people in the field, unwilling to deal with people they don't like, that is a problem. Your job is to deal with people and gather valuable intel, regardless of who they are.

Senate and House intelligence committees gear up for a single joint review of U.S. intelligence operations-focused on the U.S. response to terror over the last 16 years, and in particular on the Sept. 11 attacks and other Osama bin Laden operations.

As UPI recently reported, some in the intelligence community are skeptical about what the inquiry will achieve.

One longtime former agency official said the CIA has already undergone several facelifts: "We were reorganized along regional lines, then we were reorganized under functional lines. The point is that any new reorganization has got to result in a better product."

No matter what happens on Capitol Hill, reforms are badly needed, according to several current and former CIA officials who agreed to speak to UPI on condition of anonymity.

One very senior former CIA official said that prior to Sept. 11, the CIA had received "a strategic warning" of the attacks, which the CIA was unable to translate "to a tactical warning" which would have readied the nation for war.

He faulted the agency's analytical system, which he called "cumbersome," adding, "We collect a mountain of data every day, but we've lost the ability to connect the dots."

He commented that CIA Director George Tenet "goes around boasting that the analysts send to the White House a daily threat matrix of 50-100 targets. That's laughable. That's like saying in physics that there are 100 elemental particles. It shows you don't know physics."

But one senior CIA analyst, still active, said analysis is being undercut in the organization because it isn't on the fast track to promotion.

"For one thing, CIA bureau chiefs, who are really just editors, are paid more than analysts and have much more chance for promotion. They're management and analysts aren't."

Another agency analyst agreed that the career track made the job unattractive. "For analysts there is no way to go up." This inequity occurs in spite of the fact that the analyst's job "is key to processing on-ground information in key target areas." Determining the nature and degree of threats -- like that posed by al-Qaeda -- is "one of the first and foremost tasks of analysis," he said.

Another CIA screwup...

This spring, Army Green Berets set off from eastern Afghanistan toward the Pakistani border because the CIA was convinced that top al-Qaeda leaders were in the area, possibly including Osama bin Laden, and almost certainly his No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri. But the military was skeptical and reluctant to launch the secret raid, which required U.S. forces to stray into Pakistan at a time when the Pakistani government was denying their presence. Military intelligence doubted al-Qaeda leaders were there. "We like to underpromise and overdeliver," one senior Pentagon official said. "That other agency likes to overpromise." As the Pentagon had expected, the commandos returned without any prized captives.

The CIA sending SOF forces on wild goose chases is a bit disturbing. I have heard of at least a dozen stories such as this one. Why am I pissed? Because, crappy decisions like this gets men killed. Maybe it's just me, but f*ck ups aren't tolerated in the field.

[Ratamacue]

When did you feel as though it became necessary to embark on a personal crusade against the CIA?

[NcDeuce]

The days following 9/11. And stories from my dad and his friends who were conducting ops in Afghanistan.

Why are you defending the CIA's screwups? You are a sophomore in high school and you probably don't know any SOF guys who fought and died in Afghanistan, the Philippines, or Iraq.

[ibstolidude]

to whom is that directed?

Please say me or Beowulf! - please tell me I know no SOF who werved in any of those places!

hint hint - check around this website first.

[Ratamacue]

I am defending the CIA because I have chosen to side with Tane and James and others, people who have served in the US Military, have actual military experience, and have met CIA Officers. You haven't.

I've met a CIA officer too. My uncle. Served in SOG in Laos during Vietnam covering the Ho Chi Minh trail. Much more honorable man than you, I must say.

[NcDeuce]

It's directed towards Ratamacue.

Sophomore in high school...who has a chip on his shoulder because his uncle was CIA.

Congrats to your uncle.

But how can you assume he was more honorable of a man than I? You don't even know me. For a 10th grader, who might not even be old enough to drive yet, knocking one's honor is quite a call to make.

But let's talk about personal military experience...

I'm currently a cadet in the #1 ROTC program in the nation, we go on field training excercises with the 5th Special Forces Group and 101st Airborne Division. We get access to the 160th SOAR HQ and its flight simulators. My father is retired Special Ops. All of his friends are also retired SOF. I can't go through all of the names because they're active-duty but I will name a couple. And if you're as smart as you try to sound on these boards, you might recognize these men. He was killed in Afghanistan along with two of his A-Team comrades. MSG Davis, J.D. as we called 'em, was a close friend to my family. Lt. Col. Drew, now a 160th SOAR pilot, Drew was a former Apache pilot assigned to the 101st. He fired the first shots of the first Gulf War from his Apache gunship.

Ho Chi Minh trail, huh? That's not very recent.

[Ratamacue]

Actually, I can drive.

We all know how many people in the SOCOM community you know, and about how very special you are because of it. But that doesn't change the fact that you have never met anyone in the CIA. You can talk all you want about your SOF friends, congratulations.

But an honorable person does not attack a unit, agency, or organization they do not have personal experience with. Maybe I don't have personal experience with the CIA itself, but I do know someone who was in it for quite sometime, even after he wasn't officially working for the government before.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Rather, I have a problem with assholes like you that put down an elite unit that has greater training, has been around longer, and has vastly more experience than yourself. The fact that you are in ROTC and know SOF members does not make you an expert on the CIA and its faults. Every single goddamn unit in the United States Military has had ****ups. Yes, even Special Forces, 160th SOAR, all of them.

You don't even know me. For a 10th grader, who might not even be old enough to drive yet, knocking one's honor is quite a call to make.

For a ROTC student in college who has no actual military experience and doesn't know a CIA officer or have experience with the CIA itself, knocking their honor and integrity is quite a call to make.

[NcDeuce]

Quit putting words in my mouth, you dimwit. Read what I have posted. Look to see if I wrote anything about knocking the CIA's honor. I was merely pointing out their screw ups.

The CIA has existed longer than me? No way.

CIA = Elite unit? Listen to yourself.

[Ratamacue]

Dimwit? So now we're resorting to name calling?

CIA intelligence, like in most cases, is bad.
I guess they don't teach CIA agents to never leave a fallen comrade.

How is that not challenging their honor?

[XASA]

Thanks guys for maintaining this thread's integrity by keeping the CIA debate on another one. Up until recently, this was one of the few threads that hasn't turned into a flame war or filled with childish rants about what my daddy and his friends did in the war; hopefully, we can keep it that way.

[Sayeret]

All of the battles listed were pretty amazing. Too bad other ones can't be listed.

[bishop1]

IMO the most important/influental battle would be Thermopylae. In a way its amazing the Greeks could band together long enough to have peace amongst each other to fight a common foe. That in itself was a an awesome ordeal. Thermopylae not only bought another few days for the Greeks to mobilize their main army in Attica, but it gave the feuding Greeks something to have pride in and set the morale very high, as well as instilling mucho nationilistic feelings and a feeling of unity to bring them together for Platea.

And to get totally technical Thermopylae had to happen, for Sparta either had to lose a king in battle or die or be assimilated at the hands of the Persians.

[LeMat]

WIZNA
In 1939 near Wizna polish unit of 720 soldiers under command of captain Wladyslaw Raginis stopped german XIX corp (including 2 tanks divisions, 1 mechanised division and one brigade) which had 42000 soldiers and 350 tanks. The battle took 7 days (3-10 IX 1939) including 2 days of german assault. Almost all polish soldiers died or were murdered by germans. Germans losses are unknown but were very heavy. At least 1 german plane was shoot down.
Poles were fighting in not finished fortifications (without ventilations system!!)


More here (in polish)
http://www.wizna.pl/index.php?wiad=2
The foto on this page shows bunker of captain Raginis.

[Loco]

You are surrounded. There's no relief in sight. Your small unit is outnumbered by at least ten to one. With the exception of one, the outcome is never in doubt-- you will be defeated! Which battle would you rank as the greatest defensive fight in terms of military, political and historical significance.

Thermopylae, where the 300 Spartans fought the Persians to gain time for their fellow Greeks. The Alamo, where a small band of Texicans kept Santa Ana's army at bay until Sam Houston could organize his army. Wake Island, where a Marine battalion kept the Japanese Navy at bay. Cassino, where German paratroopers changed the course of the Italian Campaign in WWII by warding off the entire Allied 5th Army. Or, my choice, Roarke's Drift, where a small British detachment valiantly held off thousands of Zulus. I'm listing small units, which is why you don't see Stalingrad or the Chosin Resoirvoir listed. Are there other battles that were equally as heroic? Please advise.
There are many more significative defensive battle fought by small units than some of those you listed above. I´m sure every country that has a significative military history can list many battles of that kind.
In the case of Spain in XX century, I´d say battle of Belchite in Civil War, it was an small group of rebel troops(they weren´t a sinlge unit but a resume of some units) that held a position in the town of Belchite(Aragon) when they were surmounted by a surprise republican offensive. The defensors were really few, I don´t know exactly the figures, but the fight became a butchery because the position they held was easy to defend, they were quite resolute and battle hardened.
In the late XIX, I´d say the battle of Colinas de San Juan and El Caney in Cuba, in 1898, where a force of under 400 spanish recruits kept the positions under the fire of about 8.000 americans until they used all ammunition and were killed one by one. It´s a rate of 1 spanish agaisnt 20 americans.
Other battles I´d say in the XIX are the siege of Zaragoza city agaisnt Napoleon troops, the french soldiers were more than the people of Zaragoza themselves, most of them civilian. At the end, Zaragoza was taken by frenchs, but the casualties in every side were enormous.
Other significative defensive battle, too forgotten I think, is the siege of Cartagena de Indias(Colombia) in 1741 against the british fleet of admiral Vernon. The defender was admiral Blas de Lezo, who never had been defeated before, and it happened to be the winner again. The forces british had joined were the largest amphibious force ever assembled until that date, and the largest until the XX century. I think this is significative. Spanish had a manpower of 1100 veteran soldiers, 400 inexperienced ones, 600 sailors in six ships, 300 armed militia and 600 irregulars, Indian, black and mulattoes for a defending troop of about 3000 men. British had 50 war vessels, 130 transport and logistic ships, 9000 marines, 2000 macheteros, 15000 sailors and a group of about 2800 Anglo-American soldiers, there were more british soldiers than inhabitants in Cartagena de Indias, but they lost. Blas de Lezo was limper, handless and one-eyed. You can read more here: http://www.agonswim.com/josef/cartagena/
There were many other defensive battles fought by small spanish units in american soil, but I´d name the battle of Otumba, in Mexico, the year of 1520. Spanish soldiers had to retreat from Mexico city after being expelled by the aztec sublevation, after the death of Moctezuma. The retreat, by the night through the channels, was a disaster and the spanish lost the most of their baggage and weapons, and the just arrived soldiers of Narvaez perished. Hernán Cortés and the veterans could survive and they try to arrive to the allied city of Tlaxcala, fighting all the way skirmishes with the aztecs scouts, so they only could walk and fight with no time to rest. Spanish and allied were exhausted and ill and at last they were encircled in the plain of Otumba, about 500 spanish and 2.000 allied tlaxcaltecas, agaisnt the whole aztec army, that were about 150.000. Spanish troops formed the square figure, the only weapons they had were swords and peaks, and tried to advance through the crowd of aztecs warriors or just helding the position in the plain, but in any case they dared to break the square. The spanish cavalry were 13 riders, Hernán Cortés one of them, that rode from corner to corner of the square reinforcing the weakest points. They resisted the whole day, but slowly the square was thiner beacuse of the deaths and the injured ones, and Cortés organized a desperate attack. Among the waves of aztecs, spanish could observe the aztec general on the top of a hill in a litter held by his servants, in a supposed safe and far position. Cortés and the 12 riders began a long race and charged up the hill and Cortés stuck his javelin in the aztec general and the riders grasped the aztec banners and showed it from the top of the hill to the human crowd in the plain. It was so surprising that aztec soldiers were terrified and they suddenly flew away and spanish could reach Tlaxcala and survive. It was the turning point in the conquest of Mexico. The rated was about 1 agaisnt 60 in this case.
Other defensive battle fought by a small unit I thik is the battle of Numancia, it was fought by celt-iberian soldiers ot that city agaisnt the roman legions. The war was very long, and legions had failed, in one occasion Numancia army had captured the whole army of Mancino, a legion with his 20.000 soldiers. Ultimately the Roman Senate sent Publio Escipion Emiliano to win the war. Escipion had a human force of 60.000 legionairs, and Numancia(it was a small city) had 4.000 defensors. Of course Rome conquered Numancia, but the defense of the city was so long and bloody, the resources employed by a strong empire for defeating a small city were so big that I think this battle was more significative than any other of the battles I listed above. Numancia people never surrendered or gave up, they just fought until the end, men, women and boys. Roman had its experienced army, and all kind of war machines, but it needed nine months and the strenght of hunger for defeating a city of 7.000 inhabitants.

[oldsoak]

Me trying to keep the wife away from my pay cheque.

[Loco]

Me trying to keep the wife away from my pay cheque.
I´m looking for a richer wife. ;)

[Para]

There is a little known battle in the Western Desert in 1942 at a place called El Tamar where a force of eight guns and 200 men fought 20,000
men of Rommel's much vaunted Africa Corps, and drove them back. At the end of the battle there where just 12 men left alive out of the 200 and only five remained unwounded. This action probably stopped Rommel from taking the whole of Egypt, and yet it is never ever mentioned in the history books.

[Minardiau]

There is alot more battles that could be included.

Operation Rhine: Germany sent the Bismarck and Prinze Eugen on a sortie into the the Atlantic. Once spotted it was a race to get to France. Result. Hood sunk, Prince of Wales severly damaged, Sheffield damaged, Norfalk damaged and 2 destroyers were sunk in the subsequent chase. The British virtually sent it's entire martime assets it could to sink the Bismarck. Germans only had 2 ships in the fight. A Battleship and a super cruiser.

Battle of the Java Sea: A Australian, American, Dutch cruiser force were suprised and sunk by a vastly superior force of Japanese Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers. Allied force was destroyed but it did hold it's own for quite some time before overwhelming firepower one the day.

Kokoda Trail: Although basically a very large force engagement. It was basically though at company strength due to the nature of the terrain. In some places fighting took place when men were in single file walking up a track. Japanese had 16,000 troops or there abouts at their disposal. Australian forces during the initial withdrawel numbered no more then 2000 thousend. It was your typical fighting withdrawel until the Japanese ran out of steam and were sent back over the mountains. There was a number of battles that held up overwhelming force for a number of days on both sides.

[Auzzzie]

http://www.jahitchcock.com/kokoda.html

Read that mate, that is full of Australian courage.

quotes:
"After four days of non-stop and often hand-to-hand fighting in which over 500 Japanese were killed"

"Brigadier Potts had roughly 1000 men against over 6000 Japanese."

Small story, this man recieved the Victoria Cross.

"In another Australian position, Corporal Lindsay Bear took command after his officer had been killed and his Sergeant wounded. The situation seemed hopeless as the Japanese threatened to break through the Australian position and overrun the whole battalion. The wounded Corporal Bear was manning a bren gun and was weak from blood loss. He passed the gun to the man next to him , Private Bruce Kingsbury (pictured at the right). Suddenly, Kingsbury leapt up, and firing the bren from his hip, charged the Japanese positions through a storm of enemy machine gun fire. He cleared a path of 100 meters before being shot down by a sniper. Kingsbury’s action stopped the Japanese breakthrough and restored the battalions position. Kingsbury was awarded Australia’s highest medal for bravery, the Victoria Cross. Later his mates said he’d thrown his life away to save theirs."

Yep, I would have voted for Kokoda if it had been there. To top it off it was (at the beginning) a small number of half trained militia against battle hardened and experienced soldiers who had already had a number of victories and they had superior equipment and a mountain gun. :P

[MEGR]

Thermopylae is a good one. Just to mention others... I think that the Battle of Mogadishu and Bastogne are also good ones.

Also, there were numerous battles during Vietnam that were defensive and uneven in terms of manpower.

[callous]

Out of the choices given I voted for Roarke's Drift. 139 British soldiers defeated the 5,000 Zulus, all on thier own.
http://www.milartgl.com/images_3_b/b_heroic_little_garrison_dr.jpg

[iflu]

i know a defend,but they were all dead...

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

Out of the choices given I voted for Roarke's Drift. 139 British soldiers defeated the 5,000 Zulus, all on thier own.
http://www.milartgl.com/images_3_b/b_heroic_little_garrison_dr.jpg

x2 and they had little to no hope of rescue. The Zulu's stopped attacking not because backup arrived, but because of too may losses. And especially because the british soldiers were annhialated in a previous more even battle!

[Freibier]

Termophylae hands down.

[penna]

you could make a case for the charge of the 1st Minnesota at the Battle of *****sburg. General ******* needed 5 minutes to get troops on Cemetary Ridge, in the center of the Union line. The only unit there was the 1st Minnesota regiment. He told the commander to get the colors of the oncoming confederate brigade. 262 Minnesotans charged into in one Reb brigade, sent them reeling, then crashed into another one before being decimated. A captain and 47 survivors came back to *******, but they had bought him 10 minutes, enough to plug the line and get ready for the oncoming confederates.

[Mike 1-3]

There have undoubtedly been many, many desperate and courageous actions in the last 8000 years of organized warfare. I doubt many of them ever get mentioned in any history book - nevertheless, I raise a salute to every soldier who believed in his cause or in his comrades enough to die for them.

Thanks for sharing many amazing stories of heroism I've never heard of, and here's my contribution. Some years back I studied Russo-Finnish Continuation War, ie. the Second World War. One story caught my attention:

During massive Russian offensive in summer 1944, as the Finnish lines reeled back in full retreat and Stalin was determined to make Finland a Soviet state, many old soldiers who had been released from active duty during relatively quiet years of 42-43 were hastily recalled as replacements to stem the Red tide. One such reservist company, mostly made up of local farmers and tradesmen in their forties and fifties and poorly equipped with anything else than their small arms, was deployed on a small hill overlooking a major river in the Karelian Isthmus, direct route from Leningrad to Finland. As the Russian advance was faster than anticipated, their hill quickly became hotly contested as it overlooked the remaining Finnish bridgehead on the eastern bank.

As the Red Army bombarded the hill with everything it had and an assault was imminent, the men - husbands all, fathers most - decided that come hell or high water, they would not retreat one inch from their ancestral lands.

Two days later, two crack Russian divisions, attacking with great courage several times in a day, had been unable to dislodge the defenders. On the second nightfall, all their ammunition spent, eight wounded men braved the river and returned to Finnish lines to tell the tale. They were all that was left from a company of over 120 men.

That price had been enough to buy two invaluable days for their comrades-in-arms.

Finland was never occupied.



I have forgotten details and probably there are several errors in the story, but nevertheless, I wish that (heaven forbid) were I in a equally difficult situation, I would have as much courage as these men had.



Still, for historical significance and for pure "stuff of legends"-factor, my vote goes to Thermopylae. Although have to agree that level 27 in Beach Head is a bit tricky too ;).

[Minardiau]

Another battle we missed out on was the Seige of Fort Drumm.

It was a Fort on the entrance to Manilla Bay and was armed with 4 14inch guns and was dubbed "The Concrete Battleship" because of the way it was built. It did actually look like a warship.

Anyway it had a garrison of 120 men and at the time of the surrender of Corrigdor (spelling) it still had a vast quantity of men, ammunition, food and water to sustain itself for a very long time.

Unfortunatly it dident happen since the Forts commander surrended incase of reprisals against the POW's who had already surrended in Bataan and Corrigor.

If you have ever seen a photo of it. The Japs would of had an extremely hard time in taking it. And bombing it into sumbission was out of the question do to the shear thickness of the concrete. Seaborne assault would of been hard since the enemy would of had to scale vertical concrete walls to get on top and enemy boats would of had a hard time of it due to the 14"inch guns which were in battleship turrets but with thicker armour.

[Laconian]

One could make an argument for a multitude of decisive defensive engagements (Chamberlain & the 20th Maine at the Little Round Top comes to mind, but is that a battle within a battle?) of the battles listed in the poll, I vote for Thermopylae for two reasons. First, the battle was decisive. The stand of the 300 Spartans (& their Greek compatriots about 8000-10000 combined forces) against nearly 275,000 - 300,000 Persians (and their armies) allowed both a sense nationalism to form a Greek alliance that would defeat Xerxes, and supplied a valuable delaying action for the forces to be mustered. So even though the Spartans, et al, are destroyed to a man (save those Leonidus sent away on the last day), they are a major contributing factor for the battle to come.

Secondly, as has been pointed out in a previous post, Thermopylae may be the pivotal battle that shaped the world. There are many historians that equate the stand at Thermopylae with saving the Western world. Imagine if Xerxes and the Persians had conquered Greece? The entire face of the world today would be different. So as far as a definitive, heard around the world battle, Thermopylae gets my vote.

[bishop1]

One could make an argument for a multitude of decisive defensive engagements (Chamberlain & the 20th Maine at the Little Round Top comes to mind, but is that a battle within a battle?) of the battles listed in the poll, I vote for Thermopylae for two reasons. First, the battle was decisive. The stand of the 300 Spartans (& their Greek compatriots about 8000-10000 combined forces) against nearly 275,000 - 300,000 Persians (and their armies) allowed both a sense nationalism to form a Greek alliance that would defeat Xerxes, and supplied a valuable delaying action for the forces to be mustered. So even though the Spartans, et al, are destroyed to a man (save those Leonidus sent away on the last day), they are a major contributing factor for the battle to come.

Secondly, as has been pointed out in a previous post, Thermopylae may be the pivotal battle that shaped the world. There are many historians that equate the stand at Thermopylae with saving the Western world. Imagine if Xerxes and the Persians had conquered Greece? The entire face of the world today would be different. So as far as a definitive, heard around the world battle, Thermopylae gets my vote.

Excactly, with the other battles you cant say any one of them did/would have shaped history the way Thermopylae did.

[Nationalist]

None of the above.

First Siege of Diu (India) (16th century)

Portuguese vs Turks


"The bullet that was a tooth
It is sometimes in chronicles written by foreigners that for some centuries have studied Portuguese History, that some interesting details are found.

A Dutch priest, Philippus Baldaeus, who accompanied the Dutch fleets that fought the Portuguese in the Indic Ocean, tells a most interesting story:

During the first Siege of Diu, a Portuguese soldier who was manning one of the bastions of the fortress that was being attacked by the Turks, found himself as the only survivor, having used all bullets but still having some gun powder for one more shot, and finding nothing else to charge his firearm with, decided to extract one of his own tooth and armed the weapon with it, firing against the enemy that was considering he was out of ammunitions.
"

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm


Now try to imagine what would be like to be THAT desperate.

Painfull too.

[Marmot1]

'Maczuga', closing the 'Falaise pocket', 19-21 August, 1944

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35969

The Balance-sheet of this fearful confrontation:

The Poles, who went into this fight with eighty-seven Sherman tanks against all the remaining weaponry of the German Seventh army surrounded on the plain of Tournai ? Aubry ? St-Lambert, lost 325 dead, 16 of whom were officers, 1,002 wounded and 114 missing. Eleven tanks were destroyed.
The Germans had about 2,000 killed, 5,000 taken prisoner, including a general, six colonels and 80 officers. They left on the battlefield 55 tanks, of which 14 were Panthers and 6 Tigers, 44 guns and 152 armoured vehicles, 359 vehicles of all types were destroyed.

out of 86 officers only one was unscratched...Canadian liason officer ;-)
rest of them were more or les wounded or dead... intersting fact are that many Germans POW were Poles impresed to wermacht (you know in 1944 germans were short of men and impresed anyone whose same sounded even little German) many of those POWs were given option to fight in polish ranks and finished battle on polish side !!!. Also due to lack of ammo most soldiers finished fight with german weapons in hands...

http://img166.exs.cx/img166/6122/falaisepocketc4sm.jpg

Polish Armoured division served as a cap to closse pocket... all germans who retreeted had to move through it... there were 19 german divisions traped there... (joint British Canadian and US effort) Polish Div and especially 24 Lanciers Batalion (?) closed gab betwen pincers and sealed off remaining germans )many escaped before closing gap and many sliped away later but they left almost all heavy equipment...

[USMC-Congbuster]

what about Guam in the opening stages of the ww2? There were between 100-200 marines garrisoning the island that fought a ****ing japanese invasion force of about 5 or 6 thousand (could be wrong) to the death.

Or during the boxer rebellion when Gysgt Dan Daly held off over a hundred enemy attackers over 3 days pretty much by himself.

[centa]

What about the british siege of Italian fort of Giarabub in WW2?
months under a complete siege.....[/img]

[MEGR]

Anyone read SOG by John Plaster? I don't have the book anymore, but he described a hugely one sided battle. A recon team of about 14 men deliberately deployed on a hill, in enemy territory, and engaged a force of I think 2 battalions of NVA troops. That's nuts!

[M1A2U2]

Roarkes drift definatly. The fact that they were just engineers makes it even more amazing. Also the falklands war. Dont forget the British turned out to crush the argentines out numbered 3 to 1 and mostly through use of ground troops. Dont forget the battle of New Orleans. I think it was like 12 americans killed while there were 7000 british killed. Or more recently in Basra when the british fixed bayonets and charged the insurgents.

[Shadow]

many German soldiers refused entering the ghetto at night (for fear of Jewish ghost

Rofl lol

[roland]

Hi

Nobody named Bir Hakeim ?
This battle has a great importance for the French but is also quite important military speaking as it enabled the British 8th Army to withdraw in good order then later be able to counter attck at el-alamein.

Here is the most reliable french version ;)

http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/article.php3?id_article=159

The Battle of Bir Hakeim

At the end of May 1942, the Free French 1st brigade occupied the southern sector of the British 8th Army's deployment in Libya, facing German and Italian Axis troops. This was a key point on the extreme left of the position since it could prevent any potential encirclement from the south of Allied forces retreating in disarray from the defeat and the fall of Tobruk that had opened the road to Cairo for the German tanks.

On 27 May 1942, the position of Bir Hakeim came under attack from the Italian "Ariete" armoured division and was engaged in fierce fighting that even reached into the interior of the stronghold. The enemy was driven back, leaving 40 tanks on the field.

From 1 to 10 June the position came under methodical attack and was completely surrounded by German and Italian forces in vastly superior numbers. General Rommel, in command of the enemy forces, endeavoured to remove the obstacle barring his advance. General Koenig, commanding the French brigade, responded to an ultimatum from Rommel calling upon him to surrender, with the words, "We are not here to surrender".

Despite the most intense artillery fire and aerial bombardment, the brigade held off every enemy attack, gave not an inch of ground and inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy.
The incredible boldness of a group of volunteers from the "Train" (transport corps) enabled a convoy of 30 lorries to reach the position under cover of night. By 10 June, however, supplies of water, food and ammunition were virtually exhausted. The garrison was given the order to retreat by the commander of the British 8th Army. During the night of 10 to 11 June, the brigade broke through the encircling enemy lines by sheer force, negotiating mine fields and bringing back its wounded and any equipment still usable.

By holding out for far longer than could have been hoped, in a feat which won worldwide acclaim, the Free French 1st Brigade had enabled the British 8th Army to withdraw in good order and had won the time needed to prepare for a reversal of the situation at El Alamein. For the French population labouring under German oppression, it confirmed their faith in their destiny and in ultimate victory. The Resistance inside France, under Jean Moulin and Christian Pineau, joined with Free France to create a single Fighting France.

The military cemetery on the site of the battle itself has been maintained in memory of those who fell. It is reached by a track, lined with crosses of Lorraine, that runs from El Adem.

Because of its isolation, the 182 bodies it once contained have been transferred to El Adem alongside the bodies of the first four French soldiers to fall at Cyrenaica on 21 January 1941, and those of the six men who lost their lives in the in the Khufra raid led by General Leclerc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the "official" english version you can find all over the web, obviously with mistakes:

The Battle of Bir Hakeim (May 26, 1942 - June 11, 1942) was fought, during
World War II, between the German/Italian Afrika Korps and the Free French
Foreign Legion, with support from the British 7th Armored Division. The
German commander was Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel and the French commander was
General Pierre Koenig.

The Germans attacked Bir Hakeim on May 26. Over the next two weeks, the
Luftwaffe flew 1,400 sorties against the defenses, whilst 4 German/Italian
divisions attacked. On June 2, 3, and 5, the German forces requested that
Koenig surrender, he refused and launched counterattacks with his Bren gun
carrierss. Despite the explosion of the defence's ammo dump, the French
continued to fight using ammo brought in by British armored cars during the
night. Meanwhile, the Royal Air Force dropped water and other supplies.

On June 9, the Eighth Army authorized a retreat and during the night of June
10/June 11 the defenders of Bir Hakeim escaped.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
And here an other English version LOL rofl

May 26, 1942 In History
Event:
Tank battle at Bir Hakeim: African corps vs British army

http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1942/may_26_1942_101134.html

[IronCross1985]

good examples...but one you forgot....Audie Murphy...

[Ratamacue]

you could make a case for the charge of the 1st Minnesota at the Battle of *****sburg. General ******* needed 5 minutes to get troops on Cemetary Ridge, in the center of the Union line. The only unit there was the 1st Minnesota regiment. He told the commander to get the colors of the oncoming confederate brigade. 262 Minnesotans charged into in one Reb brigade, sent them reeling, then crashed into another one before being decimated. A captain and 47 survivors came back to *******, but they had bought him 10 minutes, enough to plug the line and get ready for the oncoming confederates.
How about the 20th Maine holding Little Round Top? Already low on ammo, severely undermanned, assaulted multiple times by multiple Confederate regiments, ran almost entirely out of ammo and made a bayonet charge down the hill to defeat the attacking force.

[Marmot1]

what about Guam in the opening stages of the ww2? There were between 100-200 marines garrisoning the island that fought a f*** japanese invasion force of about 5 or 6 thousand (could be wrong) to the death.

Or during the boxer rebellion when Gysgt Dan Daly held off over a hundred enemy attackers over 3 days pretty much by himself.

They did not fight to the death... most of them surenderd and survived... altrough for propaganda purposes film was made where they all died heroically.... There was some misunderstanding.. commander fo island defense was sure that they are loosing and decided to surrender not knowing that Japanese assault was repulsed...

[S'13]

In the 1973 Yom Kippur War, some 150 Israeli tanks stopped invading Syrian columns - with more than 1,400 tanks - in the "bottleneck" Valley of Tears pass in the north, and the pass through the volcanic hills in the south.

The surprised and vastly outnumbered Israeli troops held off the invaders for the 48 hours that were required to mobilize and deploy the necessary forces that ultimately beat back and defeated the Syrian aggressors.

There is also the famous story of Zvika Gringold (Zvika Force) who fought in the Golan front in 1973 for over 30 hours and it is estimated that he destroyed some 60 Syrian tanks single-handedly.

[Ratamacue]

what about Guam in the opening stages of the ww2? There were between 100-200 marines garrisoning the island that fought a f*** japanese invasion force of about 5 or 6 thousand (could be wrong) to the death.

Or during the boxer rebellion when Gysgt Dan Daly held off over a hundred enemy attackers over 3 days pretty much by himself.

They did not fight to the death... most of them surenderd and survived... altrough for propaganda purposes film was made where they all died heroically.... There was some misunderstanding.. commander fo island defense was sure that they are loosing and decided to surrender not knowing that Japanese assault was repulsed...
I don't know anything about Guam, but you might be thinking of Wake Island, Marmot. That's where a battallion of Marines held off a Japanese invasion force for 2 weeks, sunk several ships, repulsed one Japanese assault, and despite mostly holding them at bay during the second, their CO was in a bunker and lost contact with most of his men, and so decided to surrender because he thought the island was overrun.

[Easy C.]

I was going to say, Australia in Tobruk and that thing we did in Singapore during WW2.

[NicNZ]

Well the Turks did an exceptional job of holding Gallipoli against the ANZACs in the first world war... of course they were helped by the fact that the british were SHELLING THE ANZACs FROM BEHIND once the NZers and Australians took the high ground :P

[moughoun]

the Gloster regiment in the Korean war probably the finest example of unit bravery according to alot of people.........who were there

[TheKiwi]

Thermopylae got my vote too, even though I had relatives at Cassino.

[OldRecon]

Wouldn't exactly call Thermopylae a small unit battle though.

As for last stands like Rooke's drift and Alamo, one could also have mentioned the Camerone battle of the French foreign legion in Mexican war of the 1860's.

[ogukuo72]

Thermopylae, hands down. 300 Spartans vs. what, 200,000 Persians? THOSE are some odds...

This is not strictly accurate. The original odds of 20,000 Greeks vs 200,000 Persians were staggering enough, but they were holding a narrow pass behind a low wall, that forced the Persians to funnel their forces into a very narrow front. They managed to hold off the Persians for three whole days.

The glorious last stand of the 300 Spartans took place only at the end of the three-day battle, when a Greek traitor led a contingent of Persians over a mountain trail to outflank the Greek defensive position. The Spartan King and his contingent of bodyguards then offered to stay as a rear guard to allow the rest of the Greeks to escape.

An interesting point was that the Greeks had not been very united before this battle, and some of them were reluctant to fight. After the last stand by the 300, those who were not willing to fight were shamed into joining in the cause.

It is said that that last stand not only saved the Greek cities from Persian domination, but also the whole of the Western civilisation that evolved from the Greeks.

My vote is for the 300.

[machupichu]

why not make a vote to see how many guys have heard "Thermopylae" for the first time?

this vote is damn stupid, its like "whos more intelligent, americans or canadians" :roll: you just cannot compare situations with 1) unreliable source 2) different odds




for example: if a castle with 10 defenders is besieged by an army of 100.000 but those take their time and let 1 week pass for preparations (maybe not knowing the enemys numbers), does that mean the 10 defenders performed an outstanding defensive?? that "Thermopylae" thing is so naive, how can anyone believe this?????

[ZaakM433]

why not make a vote to see how many guys have heard "Thermopylae" for the first time?

this vote is damn stupid, its like "whos more intelligent, americans or canadians" :roll: you just cannot compare situations with 1) unreliable source 2) different odds




for example: if a castle with 10 defenders is besieged by an army of 100.000 but those take their time and let 1 week pass for preparations (maybe not knowing the enemys numbers), does that mean the 10 defenders performed an outstanding defensive?? that "Thermopylae" thing is so naive, how can anyone believe this?????

1 thats why its a poll

2 your example is stupid

3 (obligatory ad hominem) you're stupid!

It would be better to say about thermopylae, rather than "how can anyone believe this???", "WHY does almost everyone believe this??"
Maybe then you will find your answer, if you really look.

[sharpe]

okay, I voted for Rorke's drift, but I'm also recalling something about a British post in Malaysia that was attacked by the Indonesians during the war there in the 1960s

[oregongrunt]

Battle of New Orleans, Jackass

[plodey]

Battle of Kokoda, New Guinea WW2.

Half-trained Australian militia v's huge majority of elite Japanese marines.

----------

Battle of Britain..... British fighters vs might of the German luftwaffe

[sp2c]

the Gorgonites vs the Commando elite


Alan, son of a Toy Store owner, tries out some new action figures: The Commando Elite vs. The Gorgonites. What he does not know, is that both sets of toys were designed to move, talk and play back. The Commando Elite's purpose is to destroy the Gorgonites. Unfortunately, the toy designer who was responsible for the programming, bought highly intelligent military computer chips that are usually used for steering missiles - and are able to learn. Now, the Commando Elite, led by Major Chip Hazard, is up to destroying the Gorgonites, led by peaceful Archer, who hide in Alan's parent's house. Now, a battle, in which the destructive ability of creative computer chips against creative computer chips with a different attitude comes to light, is about to begin

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/26/small_soldiers.jpg

[Easy C.]

the Gorgonites vs the Commando elite


Alan, son of a Toy Store owner, tries out some new action figures: The Commando Elite vs. The Gorgonites. What he does not know, is that both sets of toys were designed to move, talk and play back. The Commando Elite's purpose is to destroy the Gorgonites. Unfortunately, the toy designer who was responsible for the programming, bought highly intelligent military computer chips that are usually used for steering missiles - and are able to learn. Now, the Commando Elite, led by Major Chip Hazard, is up to destroying the Gorgonites, led by peaceful Archer, who hide in Alan's parent's house. Now, a battle, in which the destructive ability of creative computer chips against creative computer chips with a different attitude comes to light, is about to begin

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/26/small_soldiers.jpg

**** YES!!!

[Rantanplan]

negative

[Hugh Jardon]

In 1941 somewhere SW of Minsk a Russian KV-1 tank sat at a crossroads and held up an entire German division and supplies for almost a week.

A single KV-1. They finally killed it by attacking with 50 tanks from 3 sides and an 88 hit it in the rear.

There is also the story of Vasiley Orlikov who with 13 other men prevented the Germans from using a small forest road west of Moscow for almost 3 weeks. The Germans finally overran the position using 3 companies of Landser and 5 tanks. The soldiers had a tree with a crack in it and on the last day they put their Id's, their last letters home and some personal effects there. All died but 2, one managed to escape and tell the story and the second man died in a German prison camp.

[LazerLordz]

Singapore WW2,1st and 2nd Battalion of the Malay Regiment fought fearlessly to defend Pasir Panjang Ridge. These 42 men held off the Chrysanthemum Division of the Japanese Imperial Army for two days before being wiped out.

[Sgt.Snatchgrabber]

Anyone read SOG by John Plaster? I don't have the book anymore, but he described a hugely one sided battle. A recon team of about 14 men deliberately deployed on a hill, in enemy territory, and engaged a force of I think 2 battalions of NVA troops. That's nuts!

I read the book, and I think you may remember wrong. The engagement you're describing is at Highway 110 in Laos where about 100 soldiers (part of a hatchet force) basically dug into a hill and waiting in ambush to fracture the NVA supply lines. The Americans killed about 300 NVA in the battalion sized forced while only suffering about 20 dead themselves.

I personally don't think the battle was that onsided considering the Americans not only had a better defensive position but they were also aided by aircraft and artillery. Thats probably why the battle shouldn't make the list.

[ogukuo72]

There's this story of how an American recce platoon held off an entire Germany army for 24 hours during the Battle of the Bulge.

Any additional info?

[Biomech]

Brest Litowsk or so during the first days of Operation Barbarossa.