" This is a church rule, not God's will"

[Hot Lips]

The church(es) are really ridiculous sometimes:

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Thursday, August 19, 2004 Posted: 7:32 PM EDT (2332 GMT)



BRIELLE, New Jersey (AP) -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman Catholic doctrine.

Now, Haley Waldman's mother is pushing the Diocese of Trenton and the Vatican to make an exception, saying the girl's condition should not exclude her from the sacrament, which commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus Christ before his crucifixion. The mother believes a rice Communion wafer would suffice.

"It's just not a viable option. How does it corrupt the tradition of the Last Supper? It's just rice versus wheat," said Elizabeth Pelly-Waldman.

Church doctrine holds that Communion wafers, like the bread served at the Last Supper, must have at least some unleavened wheat. Church leaders are reluctant to change anything about the sacrament.

"This is not an issue to be determined at the diocesan or parish level, but has already been decided for the Roman Catholic Church throughout the world by Vatican authority," Trenton Bishop John M. Smith said in a statement last week.

Haley was diagnosed with celiac sprue disease when she was 5. The disorder occurs in people with a genetic intolerance of gluten, a food protein contained in wheat and other grains.

When consumed by celiac sufferers, gluten damages the lining of the small intestine, blocking nutrient absorption and leading to vitamin deficiencies, bone-thinning and sometimes gastrointestinal cancer.

The diocese has told Haley's mother that the girl can receive a low-gluten wafer, or just drink wine at Communion, but that anything without gluten does not qualify. Pelly-Waldman rejected the offer, saying her child could be harmed by even a small amount of the substance.

Haley's Communion controversy isn't the first. In 2001, the family of a 5-year-old Massachusetts girl with the disease left the Catholic church after being denied permission to use a rice wafer.

Some Catholic churches allow no-gluten hosts, while others do not, said Elaine Monarch, executive director of the Celiac Disease Foundation, a California-based support group for sufferers.

"It is an undue hardship on a person who wants to practice their religion and needs to compromise their health to do so," Monarch said.

The church has similar rules for Communion wine. For alcoholics, the church allows a substitute for wine under some circumstances, however the drink must still be fermented from grapes and contain some alcohol. Grape juice is not a valid substitute.

Haley, a shy, brown-haired tomboy who loves surfing and hates wearing dresses, realizes the consequences of taking a wheat wafer.

"I'm on a gluten-free diet because I can't have wheat. I could die," she said last week.

Last year, as the third grader approached Holy Communion age in this Jersey Shore town, her mother told officials at St. Denis Catholic Church in Manasquan that the girl could not have the standard host.

After the church's pastor refused to allow a substitute, a priest at a nearby parish volunteered to offer one, and in May, Haley wore a white Communion dress, and received the sacrament alongside her mother, who had not taken Communion since she herself was diagnosed with the disease.

Last month, the diocese told the priest that the church would not validate Haley's sacrament because of the substitute wafer.

"I struggled with telling her that the sacrament did not happen," said Pelly-Waldman. "She lives in a world of rules. She says 'Mommy, do we want to break a rule? Are we breaking a rule?"'

Pelly-Waldman is seeking help from the Pope and has written to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome, challenging the church's policy.

"This is a church rule, not God's will, and it can easily be adjusted to meet the needs of the people, while staying true to the traditions of our faith," Pelly-Waldman wrote in the letter.

Pelly-Waldman -- who is still attending Mass every Sunday with her four children -- said she is not out to bash the church, just to change the policy that affects her daughter.

"I'm hopeful. Do I think it will be a long road to change? Yes. But I'm raising an awareness and I'm taking it one step at a time," she said.

[usa320]

I read the good book, was raised a catholic and pray frequently.

But the church, the insitution and politics of it, they really, really annoy me.

[Fintin]

this is why during my freshman year of highschool i tried to get excomunicated...that didnt happen...but i fought hard to do it...

this is pritty much my argument against religion...i pritty much hate that word...you can start a religion about anything, but Faith is something you cant just invent...Christianity on the whole needs to understand that there is a huge difference between religion and Faith...they are too often intertwined...

the only two rules i have found in the bible that Christians really need to follow are
1 love your God
2 love your neighbor


**NOTE**

im not saying the Catholic Chruch is evil...or any denomonation at that...i know some very Faithful Catholics...they are great friends of mine...just too many people focus on the 'Im Catholic, or Im Baptist'...theres a bigger picture...thats all

sorry for the rant



edit...i think ozzy said it best

Are you more devoted to the idea of what Jesus wants then Jesus Himself?

-Oswald Chambers

[tuckerhat]

I think this highlights a major issue which divides the Catholic Church and Protestantism. The Catholic Church views sacrements as the act of receiving grace from God, whereas Protestants believe communion is the representation of receiving grace. This idea of literal/figurative is a rather large and divisive issue (which gets highlighted in cases as this one).


dont think anyone read that, o wel. :D

[Fintin]

I think this highlights a major issue which divides the Catholic Church and Protestantism. The Catholic Church views sacrements as the act of receiving grace from God, whereas Protestants believe communion is the representation of receiving grace. This idea of literal/figurative is a rather large and divisive issue (which gets highlighted in cases as this one).


dont think anyone read that, o wel. :D

i havnt ever had the discussion on what kind of bread it is...never thought it mattered to anyone...bread is bread...or so i thought...

the main rift with communion is that Catholics belive it is THE BODY AND BLOOD...Matthew 26:26 "Take and eat; this is my body."...Catholics believe exactly that...the bread becomes the body of Christ...Protestants simply look at it as a representation...but not all Protestants...Lutherens i think believe it to be the true Body and Blood...

i guess where the Catholic Church is coming from on this is from the fact they feel its Christ body and blood...and feel that by switching what type of blood it is...changes who it is...i guess i understand their point, but i dont fully agree with it

so yeah i read it....
just saying...

[James]

This is an excellent example of why I don't participtate in organized religion. PEOPLE deciding what's what.

I don't need them.

Damn it.

[ShotOver]

Yeah, i go to a catholic school and went up to recieve that holy communon thinggy, and stuck it in my pocket insted of eating it right away, so then out of nowhere two teachers grabbed me and took it out of my pocket and i got a whopping great detention.

Can't wait to get out of this place, can't deal with people forcing religion onto others.

[Herrmannek]

I don't see where problem is there is lots of non gluten wheat out there...Also there is no need to take whole wafel...crumb of anything didn't do harm to anybody yet... Stupid Mom just wants do problems and succed...

[perdurabo]

yep stupid mum and stupid church
i had something like these for first 10years of my life i couldn't eat anything with gluten but my parrents didn't make me any hard rules i knew that if i eat normal bread or cake i will be very sick and go again to hospital and i din't want that :)
Also church is babling too much god is in heart not in some item so this wafel is only symbolic also first waffels where more similiar to Jewish matzah... Just few assholes there ith stone minds :(

[Herrmannek]

yep stupid mum and stupid church
i had something like these for first 10years of my life i couldn't eat anything with gluten but my parrents didn't make me any hard rules i knew that if i eat normal bread or cake i will be very sick and go again to hospital and i din't want that :)
Also church is babling too much god is in heart not in some item so this wafel is only symbolic also first waffels where more similiar to Jewish matzah... Just few assholes there ith stone minds :(

And catholic wafles are matzas, but not baken on fire but wafled in wafle machine... so they don't lok like matza.. And wafel isn't symbolic its literaly God's body and wine is blood so don't throw your crap perd :). Also this isn't stone mind... If not that politics catholic church would deviate into parody similiar to those showed in god's chanel... :cantbeli:. Catholic church isn't populistic demand driven corporation... Most of the people know about RCC from exorcist or press scandals like dumb mamas who think church is next company you can buy service and decide how it will look like... Damn egocetrism...

[SwissGrenadier]

This is an excellent example of why I don't participtate in organized religion. PEOPLE deciding what's what.

I don't need them.

Damn it.

EXACTLY!!!!!

I believe in god and everything but i never, NEVER go to church. Each year we have to pay hundreds of swiss francs to the church so that , in case someone dies, we will have a nice funeral "sponsored" by our local church.GREAT!!!!! I'm thinking of resigning from the catholic church, i don't want to fill the pope's pocket anymore. Plus as PT said, the catholic church is forcing religion onto others and are to a certain extent responsible of the aids spread in africa.

[Herrmannek]

Who is forcing what on who? :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

BTW yes RCC forced Afrikans to **** with everything with moves, to infidelity to having multilpe ****** partners etc... :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[SwissGrenadier]

BTW yes RCC forced Afrikans to f*** with everything with moves, to infidelity to having multilpe ****** partners etc...

What? Did you just write that Africans fvck everything that moves? :roll:
No comment...

[Herrmannek]

BTW yes RCC forced Afrikans to f*** with everything with moves, to infidelity to having multilpe ****** partners etc...

What? Did you just write that Africans fvck everything that moves? :roll:
No comment...

So why you think RCC is responsible for aids in africa?

[Freibier]

BTW yes RCC forced Afrikans to f*** with everything with moves, to infidelity to having multilpe ****** partners etc...

What? Did you just write that Africans fvck everything that moves? :roll:
No comment...

So why you think RCC is responsible for aids in africa?
Pope say condoms=bad, so in some way:
Yes, RCC is partly responsible for AIDS in Africa (and overpopulation btw.)

[SwissGrenadier]

I didn't say that the catholic church is responsible for AIDS in africa, I said it is responsible for the SPREAD of AIDS in africa, the pope condemns the use of condoms--> the millions of catholic africans don't use them--> those who have aids transmit it
the use of condoms would hinder aids from spreading around africa. i'm not saying AIDS would be "isolated" in a matter of days or weeks but it would definitely help!
read national geographic for example if you still don't believe me

[Uncle Sam]

That's why I don't believe in churches, priests, god, the devil, religion, athiests, christians...etc...

[Freibier]

My life was in real danger 3 times and every time it turned out good.
That's why I believe in something, but to me this is a very personal thing and I'm not following any particular religion. I just try to be a good person and help the needy whenever possible.

[Herrmannek]

rofl rofl rofl
Yup guys you are realy funny... every children know that spreading hiv has nothing to do with condoms(with are very ilusoric protection even in atheist and civilised countries where people give **** about things Pope says and still fukk without them or with them but as they aren't 100% protection they get sick and not die because of costly health care...) and direct reason to widespread of aids in Afrika is ****** behavior with includes multipartner *** relationships, outher mariag ***, etc.. And by all means RCC is against that... Blaming RCC for AIDS widespread is like blaming me for whooping-cough and hailstorm...

[Freibier]

rofl rofl rofl
Yup guys you are realy funny... every children know that spreading hiv has nothing to do with condoms(with are very ilusoric protection even in atheist and civilised countries where people give **** about things Pope says and still fukk without them or with them but as they aren't 100% protection they get sick and not die because of costly health care...) and direct reason to widespread of aids in Afrika is ****** behavior with includes multipartner *** relationships, outher mariag ***, etc.. And by all means RCC is against that... Blaming RCC for AIDS widespread is like blaming me for whooping-cough and hailstorm...
Question is who's funny here ;)
While not a 100% protection, condoms can save lives
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/lowlit/aids.html
Also one has to note that in poor enviroments, *** is often the only free, enjoyable pasttime.
Those Africans are humans after all and they want to enjoy themselves, not everyone can afford fridge, tv, computers or going to clubs

[Herrmannek]

rofl rofl rofl
Yup guys you are realy funny... every children know that spreading hiv has nothing to do with condoms(with are very ilusoric protection even in atheist and civilised countries where people give **** about things Pope says and still fukk without them or with them but as they aren't 100% protection they get sick and not die because of costly health care...) and direct reason to widespread of aids in Afrika is ****** behavior with includes multipartner *** relationships, outher mariag ***, etc.. And by all means RCC is against that... Blaming RCC for AIDS widespread is like blaming me for whooping-cough and hailstorm...
Question is who's funny here ;)
While not a 100% protection, condoms can save lives
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/lowlit/aids.html
Also one has to note that in poor enviroments, *** is often the only free, enjoyable pasttime.
Those Africans are humans after all and they want to enjoy themselves, not everyone can afford fridge, tv, computers or going to clubs

Yup parachute also can save lifes, but when somoene notoriously jumps from completly good plane he ask for troubles... If someone want fuk than he should fuk his wife..not every women he met spreading **** all around the place... RCC meassage is simple fuk only your wife, it works in preventing from spreading aids... on the other side are condom enthusiasts who say: take bunch of those and go fuk as much as you want with anybody you want, but forgives to say condoms aren't 100% sure, that most of the men and women will probably forgot or will not have condoms whene they will be needed etc...

By all means notfuking is infintely more safe than fukking with condom or without :)... As for enjoys... thousand year ago people lived with same amount of joys as Africans now and weren't fukin around with every meet ocassion....

edit gramar.etc

[Uncle Sam]

Yup parachute also can save lifes, but when somoene notoriously jumps from completly good plane he ask for troubles....

Hey! I resemble that remark!! :lol:

[Beowulf]

hmmm...Church dogma states that each sacrament has Form (sensible signs that both effect, and reflect, an interior reality) and Essence (that whereby a thing is what it is)* , and neither can be compromised. That is to say that each sacrament is more than symbolic. That a certain type of bread and wine is used is more than a tradition, it is an integral part of the sacrament.

Whether that is a proper view can be debated.

*Essence is a slippery Aristotelian notion which is difficult to get one's mind around. But the conversation is about form. Go here to read about aristotle's notion of essence. Part 6

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.7.vii.html

[Beowulf]

Yup parachute also can save lifes, but when somoene notoriously jumps from completly good plane he ask for troubles....

Hey! I resemble that remark!! :lol:

Ha!

[molly747]

My grandfather left the Catholic Church bc of all the rules. So, he switched to the Episcopal Church, which is basically catholic without all the rules. Ha! "All the gilt, none of the guilt."

[Herrmannek]

My grandfather left the Catholic Church bc of all the rules. So, he switched to the Episcopal Church, which is basically catholic without all the rules. Ha! "All the gilt, none of the guilt."

those cheap american copies ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

http://uploads.offtopic.com/files/jesussaves.gif