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Siempre_Leal
02-07-2013, 09:40 PM
The most videos Ive see are "inactive" tanks just sitting their motionless getting hit by RPG's...

Vespasian
02-07-2013, 09:42 PM
Edit:
Also I'm surprised the SAA hasn't been youtubing every single thing it does, since the FSA and Jihadis are flooding the airwaves and pretty much winning the media war. (not that they can ever lose it in the eyes of the west, but at least for domestic purposes) Show some more operations against FSA strongholds, all the planted IED's, the ambush spots, maybe win back some Syrians hearts&minds.

Well western powers support the removal of Assad, so in the western media you are going to get a lot of anti Assad propaganda for want of a better word. Plus the SAA doesn't really doesn't need to do an awful lot when the Jihadis are flooding the airwaves with video's of their own dead, and their lame attempts at propaganda.

Surenas
02-07-2013, 09:46 PM
I
Also I'm surprised the SAA hasn't been youtubing every single thing it does, since the FSA and Jihadis are flooding the airwaves and pretty much winning the media war.

I think those videos posted online by FSA, and other units, have done them more wrong than good. In the beginning most people in the west at least had some sympathy for the people who were involved in those demonstrations, which we quickly compared to a French like freedom revolution, until we saw images of bearded men shouting 'Allahu akbar' at least 20 times in every footage.

Maximmmm
02-07-2013, 10:04 PM
I think those videos posted online by FSA, and other units, have done them more wrong than good. In the beginning most people in the west at least had some sympathy for the people who were involved in those demonstrations, which we quickly compared to a French like freedom revolution, until we saw images of bearded men shouting 'Allahu akbar' at least 20 times in every footage.

Yeah good point. Nevertheless I'm still a bit surprised.

@Koba, whatever the case with the Grozny debacle (and I do agree with you), we did learn from it and most armies learn from their experiences, I'm surprised the SAA hasn't made that evolution.
And the argument that it's a low-quality army doesn't play, since, again back to grozny, most of our soldiers were 18/19 year old boys and they adapted pretty fast. (although a lot of that was due to the amazing work of the afghan vets that were still around, but that whole discussion is waaay offtop)

If anything all the masses of "alleged military supervisors" sent to Assad are doing a **** job.

AgentKoba37
02-07-2013, 10:11 PM
Yeah good point. Nevertheless I'm still a bit surprised.

If anything all the masses of "alleged military supervisors" sent to Assad are doing a **** job.

IMO there may be interest in protracting this conflict in the most unexpected places. This one will be interesting how it plays out. The most unfortunate thing though is the suffering of civilians cuaght up in this gordian knot of ambitions and competing goals

Genotype
02-07-2013, 11:17 PM
hehehehe. Nice.

In short I think Hezbollah might be hit for Burgas and conflict evolving into a regional war with Syria involved.


The last thing Assad needs is a regional war in addition to the civil war. Hezbollah won't start a war both for internal Lebanese policy reasons and because the Mullahs keep it in case Iran was attacked.

In military terms, the last thing the Syrian armed forces need is a modern military opponent yes, considering the difficulties they are having against the opposition.

However, I'm pretty sure Assad would love a nice short war with Israel right now. He'd certainly lose some much-needed conventional forces and instrastructure, but he'd be able to rally the syrians and his allies against an external threat. Even the most extreme of the sunni extremists might consider a ceasefire against the external "zionist" threat", be sure Al-Nusra and co have no love of Israel. It'd give him an opportunity to tap into the anti-Israeli sentiment in arab countries and extract more support from Iran and Hezbollah. It'd certainly draw some public opinion back towards him and be divisive for his opponents.

But this is all hypothetical, the best way for Israel to weaken Syria right now is to continue what it's been doing for the last couple of years. Don't get involved.

Genotype
02-07-2013, 11:25 PM
Could you please post some of the relevant text? I keep clicking on the link but I keep getting an error message.

It's not a very long article.


Syrian government jets bombarded the Damascus ring road on Thursday in a bid to halt a rebel advance which threatens President Bashar Assad's hold on the capital, insurgent commanders and opposition activists said.
Warplanes fired rockets at southern parts of the route where rebels have spent the past 36 hours overrunning army positions and road blocks encircling the heart of the city, the site of key state security and intelligence installations.


I've been wrong before, but I'll be surprised if the rebels successfully push the Syrian army out of Jobar. There's a lot of the Syrian army's elite formations arrayed against them right now, the government's forces are concentrated in Damascus proper.

Saying that, the government's laissez-faire attitude has let the opposition push them out of the Damascus hinterlands and get surrounded in their own capital. Which asks the same old questions about their desire to take the offensive and prosecute the war properly. They can generally be relied upon to respond with artillery and airstrikes when an area/position is captured, but hardly ever a ground offensive to recapture the terrain.

Mousepad
02-07-2013, 11:35 PM
In military terms, the last thing the Syrian armed forces need is a modern military opponent yes, considering the difficulties they are having against the opposition.

However, I'm pretty sure Assad would love a nice short war with Israel right now. He'd certainly lose some much-needed conventional forces and instrastructure, but he'd be able to rally the syrians and his allies against an external threat. Even the most extreme of the sunni extremists might consider a ceasefire against the external "zionist" threat", be sure Al-Nusra and co have no love of Israel. It'd give him an opportunity to tap into the anti-Israeli sentiment in arab countries and extract more support from Iran and Hezbollah. It'd certainly draw some public opinion back towards him and be divisive for his opponents.

But this is all hypothetical, the best way for Israel to weaken Syria right now is to continue what it's been doing for the last couple of years. Don't get involved.

Thing is that conflict with Iz may/will end up with very unexpected result, not a propaganda worthy land war were expendable Syrian hero grunts struggle with ebil Zionist Merkavas but a bunker-buster bomb on Assad himself in maybe 1-st or 2-nd day of conflict, sneaky Jooz tend to aim for the head.

Genotype
02-07-2013, 11:45 PM
Thing is that conflict with Iz may/will end up with very unexpected result, not a propaganda worthy land war were expendable Syrian hero grunts struggle with ebil Zionist Merkavas but a bunker-buster bomb on Assad himself in maybe 1-st or 2-nd day of conflict, sneaky Jooz tend to aim for the head.

If Assad survives though, he'd come out in a stronger position against his internal enemies despite any material losses.

And sadly I'm pretty sure he's smart enough not to be the one doing any dying for Syria.

But as I said, hypothetical discussion, it's not gonna happen.

Rebel44CZ
02-07-2013, 11:59 PM
In military terms, the last thing the Syrian armed forces need is a modern military opponent yes, considering the difficulties they are having against the opposition.

However, I'm pretty sure Assad would love a nice short war with Israel right now. He'd certainly lose some much-needed conventional forces and instrastructure, but he'd be able to rally the syrians and his allies against an external threat. Even the most extreme of the sunni extremists might consider a ceasefire against the external "zionist" threat", be sure Al-Nusra and co have no love of Israel. It'd give him an opportunity to tap into the anti-Israeli sentiment in arab countries and extract more support from Iran and Hezbollah. It'd certainly draw some public opinion back towards him and be divisive for his opponents.

But this is all hypothetical, the best way for Israel to weaken Syria right now is to continue what it's been doing for the last couple of years. Don't get involved.

1. I dont think even war against israel would convince most rebels to join forces with government (and rebels sure as hell wouldnt let army take over territory they are currently holding).
2. Any serious incident which would provoke Israel enough to start major operation against Syria would wipe out Syrian airforce in a few days - and airfoce is pretty important for syrian government in its fight against rebels.

So I think that Syrian government wont provoke such action, because risk is too high.

Genotype
02-08-2013, 12:16 AM
1. I dont think even war against israel would convince most rebels to join forces with government (and rebels sure as hell wouldnt let army take over territory they are currently holding).
2. Any serious incident which would provoke Israel enough to start major operation against Syria would wipe out Syrian airforce in a few days - and airfoce is pretty important for syrian government in its fight against rebels.

So I think that Syrian government wont provoke such action, because risk is too high.

I think both your points are valid, and I never suggested the Syrian army would provoke the action.

Just that if Israel initiated a short conflict with Syria, I can easily see Assad's position (regarding their opposition) being stronger afterwards, despite any material losses.

Think of why Saddam launched the scud attacks on Israel in the first gulf war, he was attempting to make it politically difficult for arab countries to side against him (he failed of course).

Anyway, this is a minor and hypothetical point anyway, I'd rather not derail this thread with Syria v Israel war nonsense that isn't gonna happen.

Genotype
02-08-2013, 12:17 AM
Just found this excellent link from the other article.

Live blog tracking progress of the war in Daraa and Damascus.

Far too much for me to quote/post though, I suggest you all check it out yourself.

http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2013/2/6/syria-live-coverage-the-fight-in-daraa-province.html

Most of the reports seem cross-referenced to map locations and/or youtube footage.

Camera
02-08-2013, 03:28 AM
Interesting article, apologies if already posted.

http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2013/2/6/syria-analysis-someone-is-arming-the-insurgentsand-its-worki.html

Someone on here mentioned the sudden appearance of ex-Yugoslav weapons in the opposition hands, but I can't find their post to quote em...might have been themacedonian.

Rumour has it (and I must say again this only the rumour) that this is all from a weapon shipment funded by Kuwaitis, brought in from the former Yugoslavia and distributed to the FSA. As mentioned in the article, this weapon stockpile is deliberately being targeted at the more moderate fighters and clearly being kept awake from the like of Jabhat al Nusra.

Yemen captured a ship loaded with Iranian weapons. The Yemenites will be wise to transfer the shipment to the FSA so the IRGC, the Hez and Assad would have a taste of the Mullah's medicine.

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 03:37 AM
I concur with Camera. Everyone is interested in keeping this more or less contained to Syria. Except maybe some jihadists.

More than a few parties involved only see Iran in the distance.

Let's not pretend the West gives a **** about Syrians. It never has and it never will. This is war of domino's, a war on Iran and the Shia Crescent, this is not about anyone caring about human rights or political reforms in Syria.

Camera
02-08-2013, 03:40 AM
More than a few parties involved only see Iran in the distance.

Did you read the reports about Panetta who has supported giving weapons to the rebels and Obama being against it?

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 03:47 AM
Did you read the reports about Panetta who has supported giving weapons to the rebels and Obama being against it?

I believe my reply was...


Thank you Mr. President.

Seriously, thanks!

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 03:48 AM
Did you read the reports about Panetta who has supported giving weapons to the rebels and Obama being against it?

A common trait of proxy conflicts and indeed wars is deception

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 03:51 AM
More than a few parties involved only see Iran in the distance.


Well that they do :) Seems working out so far but too early to call

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 03:52 AM
A common trait of sime proxy conflicts and indeed wars - deception

We don't have statesmen like that anymore - You give us Americans too much credit. The English and French run circles around us and lead us by the nose.

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 03:53 AM
. The English and French run circles around us and lead us by the nose.

Yeah right . I lolled

All I can say is you have learned your art of operational warfare rather well. Surely SAA ineptitude helps but still.

Camera
02-08-2013, 03:56 AM
More than a few parties involved only see Iran in the distance.

Let's not pretend the West gives a **** about Syrians. It never has and it never will. This is war of domino's, a war on Iran and the Shia Crescent, this is not about anyone caring about human rights or political reforms in Syria.

Biden offered direct talks to Iran last week and the Supreme Leader rejected the idea yesterday.

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 04:00 AM
Biden offered direct talks to Iran last week and the Supreme Leader rejected the idea yesterday.

Yeah I bet he made them an offer they couldnt refuse ;)

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 04:01 AM
Biden offered direct talks to Iran last week and the Supreme Leader rejected the idea yesterday.

With the internal political intrigue going on in Iran right now any talks would be a non-starter. I would imagine our government would know that and in my opinion it is likely Biden offered it TO GET TURNED DOWN so he could say he tried to play the peace maker.

But here is another question.

What is the Vice President doing with being involved in such an offering in the first place? No Vice President that I can think of has taken similar steps in the past? So really this is nothing more than a political stunt by our ******* Vice President.

The president or Sec State makes those calls, those kinds of statements. Not Vice Presidents.

Think Al Gore or George Bush pulled that **** as Vice presidents? Hell no! Know why? Because we had real leaders in office unlike today.

McJustice
02-08-2013, 04:07 AM
Biden offered direct talks to Iran last week and the Supreme Leader rejected the idea yesterday.

Summary of that rejection

AYATOLLAH ALI KHAMENEI

"Negotiations is a tactic. Talk is a tactic, a gesture of superpower, is only a deceptive move. This is not a real move. Talks are intended to prove goodwill. You do a dozen of things revealing your bad will, and then verbally say let's talk. Can the Iranian nation trust that you have any goodwill?"

OrangeWolf
02-08-2013, 04:11 AM
According to the Dutch secret service tens of Dutch citizens go to Syria to fight against the Syrian government. In Syria they receive military and ideological training, which they will take back to the Netherlands. In the last few months more jihadists left for Syria than in 2011 alone.

Don't sound like the type of "countrymen" I'd have a drink with...

Source: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/02/07/aivd-bezorgd-tientallen-jihadstrijders-van-nederland-naar-syrie/

Camera
02-08-2013, 04:13 AM
With the internal political intrigue going on in Iran right now any talks would be a non-starter. I would imagine our government would know that and in my opinion it is likely Biden offered it TO GET TURNED DOWN so he could say he tried to play the peace maker.

But here is another question.

What is the Vice President doing with being involved in such an offering in the first place? No Vice President that I can think of has taken similar steps in the past? So really this is nothing more than a political stunt by our ******* Vice President.

The president or Sec State makes those calls, those kinds of statements. Not Vice Presidents.

Think Al Gore or George Bush pulled that **** as Vice presidents? Hell no! Know why? Because we had real leaders in office unlike today.

Obama has made a friendly offer to Iran, during his first presidency, to start a new relation and he was turned down. Maybe Biden tried this time hoping he'll be lucky than the president was.

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 04:15 AM
According to the Dutch secret service tens of Dutch citizens go to Syria to fight against the Syrian government. In Syria they receive military and ideological training, which they will take back to the Netherlands. In the last few months more jihadists left for Syria than in 2011 alone.

Don't sound like the type of "countrymen" I'd have a drink with...

Source: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/02/07/aivd-bezorgd-tientallen-jihadstrijders-van-nederland-naar-syrie/

I guess Europe found a way to solve its latent islamist miltant problem by letting them leave for Syrian attrition. What happens when some survive and decide to come back?

Maximmmm
02-08-2013, 04:26 AM
According to the Dutch secret service tens of Dutch citizens go to Syria to fight against the Syrian government. In Syria they receive military and ideological training, which they will take back to the Netherlands. In the last few months more jihadists left for Syria than in 2011 alone.

Don't sound like the type of "countrymen" I'd have a drink with...

Source: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/02/07/aivd-bezorgd-tientallen-jihadstrijders-van-nederland-naar-syrie/

Reminds me of every single time I had to pop down to Rotterdam for something. Majority is immigrants with a tangible portion of people you don't want to meet out at night.

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 04:37 AM
Obama has made a friendly offer to Iran, during his first presidency, to start a new relation and he was turned down. Maybe Biden tried this time hoping he'll be lucky than the president was.

Biden has no power to make such deals. I mean this literally so anything coming from this man regarding this issue is out and out bull****.

If anything the sorry ass Iranians better be even more paranoid.

themacedonian
02-08-2013, 07:14 AM
just saw this

http://www.masress.com/en/anaen/90332

Group says 54 died in Syria military factory blast
Arab News Agency (http://www.masress.com/en/author?name=Arab%20News%20Agency)Published in Arab News Agency (http://www.masress.com/en/anaen) on 08 - 02 - 2013


A bombing at a bus stop near a military factory in central Syria (http://www.masress.com/en/city?name=Syria) this week killed 54 people, all civilian workers at the plant, an activist group said Friday.
Rami Abdul-Rahman of the Britain-based Syria (http://www.masress.com/en/city?name=Syria)n Observatory for Human Rights said the explosion took place on Wednesday in the village of al-Buraq, near the central city of Hama.
The area is government-controlled, which is why reports on the blast were slow to emerge, he said.
A mini-bus packed with explosives blew up near a bus stop where factory workers were waiting to go home after work, said Abdul-Rahman. The dead included 11 women. He said the factory makes military supplies, but not weapons.
"These people work for the Ministry of Defense, but they are all civilians," he said "There was no one from the military" killed in the blast.

Camera
02-08-2013, 11:33 AM
Assad's forces try to beat back rebels edging into Damascus; UNHCR says some 5,000 refugees escaping Syria everyday.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=302620

prince99x
02-08-2013, 01:14 PM
١. I dont think even war against israel would convince most rebels to join forces with government (and rebels sure as hell wouldnt let army take over territory they are currently holding).٢. Any serious incident which would provoke Israel enough to start major operation against Syria would wipe out Syrian airforce in a few days - and airfoce is pretty important for syrian government in its fight against rebels.So I think that Syrian government wont provoke such action, because risk is too high.Damn right 2 points.

prince99x
02-08-2013, 01:34 PM
hehehehe. Nice.In short I think Hezbollah might be hit for Burgas and conflict evolving into a regional war with Syria involved.Yeah the regional war is the last weapon we have indeed.But we still got so many cards just wait and see.Hence the newly formed N.D.F im very optimistic about it specially after the video of their training.http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DVgNkN9kPM_w

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 01:51 PM
Yeah the regional war is the last weapon we have indeed.But we still got so many cards just wait and see.Hence the newly formed N.D.F im very optimistic about it specially after the video of their training.http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DVgNkN9kPM_w

Good trigger discipline :) 0:13 - 0:16

Surenas
02-08-2013, 02:00 PM
According to the Dutch secret service tens of Dutch citizens go to Syria to fight against the Syrian government. In Syria they receive military and ideological training, which they will take back to the Netherlands. In the last few months more jihadists left for Syria than in 2011 alone.

Don't sound like the type of "countrymen" I'd have a drink with...

Source: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/02/07/aivd-bezorgd-tientallen-jihadstrijders-van-nederland-naar-syrie/

Too bad they will eventually come back, because if not, I would even reconsider to buy them a ticket. I guess they don't know in which *****hole they've stepped.

coltfan111
02-08-2013, 02:09 PM
The longer this conflict has gone on, the more and more radical the most powerful elements in the "FSA" have become. There is no way I would like them to prevail as I would fear for the other non Sunni minorities in the country as well as the prospect of another safe haven for Islamic fundamentalism. However I do not think Assads position is sustainable, I just see the country being disected along ethnic and religous borders in the end.

Surenas
02-08-2013, 02:23 PM
Has anyone found something interesting about Hezbollah operating in Syria? I guess the lack of footage and information about Hezbollah units in Syria has something to do with them keeping a low-profile, by probably operating at night, which in turn makes infiltration and reconnaissance night vision goggles operations more convenient because of reduced visibility.

Bloo
02-08-2013, 02:30 PM
Has anyone found something interesting about Hezbollah operating in Syria? I guess the lack of footage and information about Hezbollah units in Syria has something to do with them keeping a low-profile, by probably operating at night, which in turn makes infiltration and reconnaissance night vision goggles operations more convenient because of reduced visibility.

Hezbollah also isn't very keen to advertise its role in Syria, due to Assad's unpopularity in most of the Arab world by this point and because it more or less shows their true colors as an Iranian proxy occupation army.

We haven't seen much footage of Iranian troops either, but they're there. Neither groups want to show this as anything more then Assad/Syrian People fighting a noble crusade against an Al Qaeda shadow army of foreigners raised by Israel/US. Of course the truth is that this conflict lost any semblance of good guy/bad guy long ago.

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 02:30 PM
Has anyone found something interesting about Hezbollah operating in Syria? I guess the lack of footage or information about Hezbollah units in Syria has something to do with them keeping a low-profile, by probably operating at night, which in turn makes infiltration and reconnaissance night vision goggles operations more convenient because of reduced visibility.

IMO hezzbollah is plugging SAA's tactical capability gaps as part of an effort of using urban environment to absorb rebel manpower. They are a force multiplier. There could be recon missions as well. Assasination of local rebel leadership too. Maybe hitting communication lines and those facilitating them

Surenas
02-08-2013, 02:57 PM
Iranian troops either, but they're there.

I doubt it. My guess is that Iranians are merely in an advisory role, while Hezbollah serves as its eyes and ears on the ground.


IMO hezzbollah is plugging SAA's tactical capability gaps as part of an effort of using urban environment to absorb rebel manpower. They are a force multiplier. There could be recon missions as well. Assasination of local rebel leadership too. Maybe hitting communication lines and those facilitating them

Thats what I'm trying to say; it explains why they have managed to keep a low-profile in Syria. They are not just operating as a regular 'Syrian' unit, but as special assault teams.

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 03:09 PM
Yep. I would say hezzbollah is there to match tactical advantages of Nusra type units among other things. You are most likely right Iranian involvement while significant is not as direct action yet.

Laker1
02-08-2013, 03:44 PM
I would say hezzbollah is there to match tactical advantages of Nusra type units among other things. You are most likely right Iranian involvement while significant is not as direct action yet.

Hezbollah for sure is willing to sacrifice many of it's members to try to save Assad..as long as there is no foreign military intervention,Assad can be quiet relaxed even though he doesn't control many areas of the country.

AgentKoba37
02-08-2013, 03:48 PM
Hezbollah for sure is willing to sacrifice many of it's members to try to save Assad..as long as there is no foreign military intervention,Assad can be quiet relaxed even though he doesn't control many areas of the country.

What choice do they have? Assad losing is not going to bode well for them

Laker1
02-08-2013, 03:58 PM
What choice do they have? Assad losing is not going to bode well for them

Assad=logistics for Hezbollah. The next regime in Syria for sure will not be close to Hezbollah and Iran like Assad is.

Ya22
02-08-2013, 04:49 PM
Has anyone found something interesting about Hezbollah operating in Syria? I guess the lack of footage and information about Hezbollah units in Syria has something to do with them keeping a low-profile, by probably operating at night, which in turn makes infiltration and reconnaissance night vision goggles operations more convenient because of reduced visibility.
Once in a while we hear about a dead terrorist returning to Lebanon from Syria to be buried there...

Ya22
02-08-2013, 04:51 PM
Assad=logistics for Hezbollah. The next regime in Syria for sure will not be close to Hezbollah and Iran like Assad is.
After the Assadists are gone, Syria will be like Iraq.. everything can go anywhere..

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 04:52 PM
After the Assadists are gone, Syria will be like Iraq.. everything can go anywhere..

What a joke.

Siempre_Leal
02-08-2013, 04:56 PM
Good trigger discipline :) 0:13 - 0:16

damn right...My finger would be sore or stiff lolz

@Laworkerbee...Ya22=Crush6655...crush's account gets suspended then he turns on his Ya22 profile...

Ya22
02-08-2013, 04:57 PM
What a joke.
What do you mean ?

I don't see a joke.

Laworkerbee
02-08-2013, 04:58 PM
What do you mean ?

I don't see a joke.

I do

Almost every time I read one of your posts.

TT1
02-08-2013, 05:01 PM
Turkey: Al-Qaeda in Syria is terrorist
ANKARA

In response to long-held claims that Turkey supports the Nusra front in Syria, which is linked to the al-Qaeda, the Turkish government made it clear Feb. 6 that it considers the al-Qaeda group in Syria to be a terrorist organization.

“We also consider the al-Qaeda elements in Syria as terrorists. It is not possible for us to consider them as freedom fighters and to give them support as a state,” Finance Minister Mehmet Şimşek told reporters in response to questions on the issue.

“Consequently, the withdrawal of support following the approval of this bill is out of question,” Şimşek said, speaking while Parliament was in the middle of debating a bill looking to prevent the financing of terrorism.
...

Washington recently blacklisted Jabhat al-Nusra, the Nusra Front, calling it a terrorist organization even though inside Syria it has attracted a lot of respect for its victories and for a comparative lack of corruption compared to many rebel groups.

February/06/2013
---
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-al-qaeda-in-syria-is-terrorist.aspx?pageID=238&nID=40636&NewsCatID=352

Flamming_Python
02-08-2013, 05:04 PM
damn right...My finger would be sore or stiff lolz

@Laworkerbee...Ya22=Crush6655...crush's account gets suspended then he turns on his Ya22 profile...

lol yeah that's exactly what I suspected.
Subconsciously I regarded them as one and the same person, because they in fact are :-P

Ladies and Gentlemen we have an Israeli troll here.

themacedonian
02-08-2013, 05:50 PM
Yeah the regional war is the last weapon we have indeed.But we still got so many cards just wait and see.Hence the newly formed N.D.F im very optimistic about it specially after the video of their training.http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DVgNkN9kPM_w

Opening war on another front is not desired by anyone.

I think IDF might enter Lebanon see here

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4342378,00.html

Would Syria help them?

EITAN88
02-08-2013, 05:55 PM
Opening war on another front is not desired by anyone.

I think IDF might enter Lebanon see here

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4342378,00.html


Israel will not enter Lebanon without a casus belli.

themacedonian
02-08-2013, 05:57 PM
Israel will not enter Lebanon without a casus belli.

A strike against the leadership/command elements that ordered Burgas (now that the verdict is out). Just one.

Then wait for response. Hezbollah responds.

Casus Belli for ground war.

EITAN88
02-08-2013, 06:03 PM
A strike against the leadership/command elements that ordered Burgas (now that the verdict is out). Just one.

Then wait for response. Hezbollah responds.

Casus Belli for ground war.


Perhaps, though I doubt that a strike against Hizbollah command would be conducted the same way as was done with Jabari but rather more like Mughniyah.

In which case a Hizbollah response will also not be of a direct nature (rocket fire on the north of Israel).

Laker1
02-08-2013, 06:11 PM
A strike against the leadership/command elements that ordered Burgas (now that the verdict is out). Just one.

Then wait for response. Hezbollah responds.

Casus Belli for ground war.

The respons will be via a covert operation..

jokuvaan
02-08-2013, 07:49 PM
Claimed map of the Damascus area, as always, impossible to verify: http://keapr.com/images/5d0eb9e8-5a28-499e-bfe2-9dbdfedb0d5a.jpg


(http://keapr.com/images/5d0eb9e8-5a28-499e-bfe2-9dbdfedb0d5a.jpg)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9857846/Syria-how-jihadist-group-Jabhat-al-Nusra-is-taking-over-Syrias-revolution.html


The group is well funded – probably through established global jihadist networks – in comparison to moderates. Meanwhile pro-democracy rebel group commanders say money from foreign governments has all but dried up because of fears over radical Islamists.

The effect is changing the face of the Syrian revolution.

(http://keapr.com/images/5d0eb9e8-5a28-499e-bfe2-9dbdfedb0d5a.jpg)

Climber
02-08-2013, 08:37 PM
Opening war on another front is not desired by anyone.

I think IDF might enter Lebanon see here

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4342378,00.html

Would Syria help them?

Nobody is entering any place, don't lose your sleep about it......

prince99x
02-08-2013, 08:55 PM
Oh, OK. So what you are saying is that Russia failed to prevent the conflicts from happening or at least getting at the heart of the beast first before the **** hit the fan where they had no choice but to go in (and subsiquently enough, get more people killed)? If so, then I see what you are saying and I agree. The Russian government can be very spineless it seems.
Opening war on another front is not desired by anyone.I think IDF might enter Lebanon see herehttp://www.ynetnews.com/articles/٠,٧٣٤٠,L-٤٣٤٢٣٧٨,٠٠.htmlWould Syria help them?Syria already helped everyone from Hez up to Russia by its 2 year long super survival.However i said last weapon like when all the odds will be against us.

Laker1
02-08-2013, 09:09 PM
Syria already helped everyone from Hez up to Russia by its 2 year long super survival.However i said last weapon like when all the odds will be against us.

If Assad will be in a very bad situation he will use chemical weapons?..

Ya22
02-08-2013, 09:13 PM
If Assad will be in a very bad situation he will use chemical weapons?..

The guy has butchered 75,000+ Syrians.. sure he will.

Laker1
02-08-2013, 09:47 PM
The guy has butchered 75,000+ Syrians.. sure he will.

I also think like that..it's interesting to know what a supporter of Assad thinks.

themacedonian
02-08-2013, 10:29 PM
Nobody is entering any place, don't lose your sleep about it......

well I did not say it I just pointed out the link :) ......sleeping fine thanks.

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 04:21 AM
The guy has butchered 75,000+ Syrians.. sure he will.


I also think like that..it's interesting to know what a supporter of Assad thinks.

Crush6655, why are you talking to yourself? :)

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 04:24 AM
Crush6655, why are you talking to yourself? :)

Israeli IW ops man do not interfere p-)

gresh
02-09-2013, 04:36 AM
Syrian rebels preparing for advance on capital

Syrian rebels brought their fight within a mile of the heart of Damascus, seizing army checkpoints and cutting a key highway with a row of burning tires as they pressed their campaign for the heavily guarded capital, considered the likely endgame in the nearly 2-year-old civil war.


The clashes raised fears that Damascus, a major cultural centre and one of the world's oldest continuously inhabited cities, could fall victim to a protracted battle that would bring the destruction seen in other major cities and trigger a mass refugee exodus into neighbouring countries.


"Any attempt by the rebels to advance into central Damascus would mean the beginning of a very long fight," said Syrian activist Rami Jarrah. "I imagine Aleppo would be a small example of what is likely to happen in Damascus."



A spokesman for one of the opposition groups fighting in the area said the rebels sought to open a path for a future assault on the city.

"This is not the battle for Damascus. This battle is to prepare for the entry into Damascus," he said via Skype, giving only his nickname, Abu al-Fida, for fear of reprisals.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/8282782/Syrian-rebels-preparing-for-advance-on-capital

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 04:45 AM
Israeli officials are skeptical about whether Assad will be able to maintain his grip on power past this year.

Yet they also realize that the civil war may continue consuming the country beyond his ouster. Although the turmoil diminishes the traditional risk of war with the Syrian army, it highlights the risk of confrontation with hostile non-state actors.

Contrary to conventional wisdom in the region, Israel would not mourn Assad’s departure. He is a linchpin of the radical Iran-Hezbollah axis and a staunch rival of Israel.

His fall would therefore deal a major blow to Tehran, significantly weaken Hezbollah, and dismantle the trilateral axis – the forces that may dominate Syria in the future are unlikely to seek an alliance with actors that helped Assad butcher his people.

At the same time, Israel is concerned about who might fill the post-Assad void. It is particularly troubled by the increasing weight of Islamists in the opposition, the growing number of foreign jihadists (who have become the most potent fighting force on the ground), and the West’s continued passivity about supporting non- Islamist opposition forces. Ultimately, Israel could find itself confronted by hostile Islamists in its two most important Arab neighbors, Egypt and Syria – a reality that could have a dangerous regional ripple effect.


Israel is closely following the conflict’s impact on Syria’s other neighbors.

First, it is deeply concerned that the turmoil may breed serious instability in Jordan, a country of strategic importance to Israel and the West. In late December, an Arab newspaper reported that King Abdullah and Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu had met secretly in Amman to discuss the Syria situation, and Israeli government sources unofficially confirmed the report.

Regarding Lebanon, Israel is pleased at the pressure the crisis has put on Hezbollah. Yet it also maintains a watchful eye, looking for signs of the group lashing out in response to this pressure or seeking to obtain strategic weapons from Syria.

The war has led Israel to rethink its strained relations with Turkey as well. The two countries have several converging interests in Syria – this fact, set against a regional background fraught with risks, will likely spur a fresh Israeli attempt at normalization with Ankara.

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Article.aspx?id=302473

Evolution
02-09-2013, 04:48 AM
The guy has butchered 75,000+ Syrians.. sure he will.

Has he now? So none of those 75,000+ Syrians were SAA soldiers, civilians loyal to Assad murdered by the FSA/Al-Qaeda, FSA fighters or foreign jihadist terrorists? They were all Syrians killed by this one man? Amazing! :roll:

Surenas
02-09-2013, 04:51 AM
His fall would therefore deal a major blow to Tehran, significantly weaken Hezbollah, and dismantle the trilateral axis the forces that may dominate Syria in the future are unlikely to seek an alliance with actors that helped Assad butcher his people.


In other words. We would rather have hostile, probably unorganized, sunni hostile groups near our borders, than a organized semi-Shia tripartite axis of Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. And I agree; the Sunnis would never be a threat to Israel as Assad/Nasrallah has been.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 04:53 AM
In other words. We would rather have hostile, probably unorganized, sunni hostile groups near our borders, than a organized semi-Shia tripartite axis of Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. And I agree; the Sunnis would never be a threat to Israel as Assad/Nasrallah has been.

I cannot say I fully agree with some of the assessment in that link but it is interesting nonetheless.

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:07 AM
I cannot say I fully agree with some of the assessment in that link but it is interesting nonetheless.

The Sunni will be busy with their internal Syrian rivalries. If they ever turn against Israel it will be nothing but harassment the Israelis are used to and know how to deal with.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:10 AM
The Sunni will be busy with their internal Syrian rivalries. If they ever turn against Israel it will be nothing but harassment the Israelis are used to and know how to deal with.

Problem is islamists may gain a state sponsor or two along the way which could complicate things. It may be just exchanging one threat over another. Shilo for milo as Russians say. But it may be that salafist chaos is easier to manage especially if at least some of it is rerouted away. Maybe

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:18 AM
Problem is they may gain a state sponsor or two along the way which could complicate things. It may be just exchanging one threat over another. Shilo for milo as Russians say.

I don't see who this state sponsor could be as it will need to provide huge quantities of weapons to build up a modern army.
With the destruction of the Syrian armored divisions, the IDF could already consider the dismantlement of some of its armored divisions. It could phase out its Magach and early Merkava and consolidate the ground forces in a smaller modern fist.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:21 AM
I don't see who this state sponsor could be as it will need to provide huge quantities of weapons to build up a modern army.
With the destruction of the Syrian armored divisions, the IDF could already consider the dismantlement of some of its armored divisions. It could phase out its Magach and early Merkava and consolidate the ground forces in a smaller modern fist.

True but I would not rush with dismantlement of armored divisions if Assad falls just yet. Not with the kind of weapon stocks that could suddenly become contested in the region. Eliminating these without sparking a regional conflict is going to be tricky IMO should the need arise
.........

Surenas
02-09-2013, 06:08 AM
Did A Senior Hezbollah Commander Escape an Assassination Plot?


According to unconfirmed information, from a source I evaluate as fairly reliable, Wafik Safa, the head of the “Central Liaison and Cooperation Committee” of Hezbollah in Lebanon, was injured at the beginning of the month in an explosion in the Sulm neighborhood in Beirut. It is not clear if it was an assassination plot, but there are reasons to affirm the suspicions.

Safa, born in 1960 in the town of Zibdin in South Lebanon, is the brother-in-law of Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah. For years he was Hezbollah’s “man in the shadows” – his name was “The Ghost.” He is considered to be a member of the most powerful inner-circle within the organization. His specific title within Hezbollah is vague, yet he holds a very powerful and senior position. He is in charge of all of Hezbollah’s counter-espionage activities in Lebanon. His adversaries say he is the “real boss” in Lebanon.

Safa is also the person in charge of all the exchange deals for dead Israeli soldiers and the one Israeli civilian abducted by Hezbollah. Safa personally handed the dead bodies of the two Israeli soldiers killed in Hezbollah’s attack on an Israeli military patrol in July 2006 which sparked a war between Israel and Hezbollah, over to the German mediator.

If the information is accurate that Safa did in fact escape an assassination plot, it is possible that it is connected to an incident that took place a few months ago.

At the end of November 2012 a group of about twenty-five Lebanese Sunni-Jihadist militants entered Syria from Northern Lebanon. The group planned to join the rebels fighting Assad’s troops.

In the area of Talkalch, inside Syrian territory next to the Lebanese-Syrian border, the group was ambushed. Seventeen members of the group were killed, others were imprisoned by the Syrians, and a few escaped. The majority of the fatalities were from the predominately Sunni-Lebanese city of Tripoli. Syria gradually returned the dead bodies to their families by mid-December.

According to uncorroborated information, it was Safa who personally provided General Rafik Shehadeh, the head of Syrian Military Intelligence, with information about the group – its members, movements, intentions, etc. Based upon Safa’s information, Hezbollah militants disguised as Syrian soldiers ambushed the group.

Hezbollah, which is Shiite, has members – reportedly senior officials – that are being held captive by a Sunni Rebel group in in the area of Ala’aza in Syria since May 2012. (You can read more about this event in my article “Nasrallah Gets a Taste of his Own Bitter Medicine.”) Hezbollah wanted to kidnap Sunnis from Tripoli as a card, so that their families back in Tripoli would put pressure on the Sunni Rebels in Syria to release the Hezbollah prisoners in return for their captured brothers and sons.

Among the Shiite prisoners being held captive since May (according to unconfirmed reports) is Wafik Safa’s son, Ali.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/did-a-senior-hezbollah-commander-escape-an-assassination-plot/

themacedonian
02-09-2013, 06:36 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9857846/Syria-how-jihadist-group-Jabhat-al-Nusra-is-taking-over-Syrias-revolution.html

Syria: how jihadist group Jabhat al-Nusra is taking over Syria's revolutionAleppo has been plunged into despair. Riven with war, life in Syria's most populous city has become a dog-eat-dog existence: a battle for survival in a place where the strong devour the weak.

ZapB
02-09-2013, 07:11 AM
In other words. We would rather have hostile, probably unorganized, sunni hostile groups near our borders, than a organized semi-Shia tripartite axis of Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. And I agree; the Sunnis would never be a threat to Israel as Assad/Nasrallah has been.

They seem disorganized now, but when Asad falls, the jihadists will take over (the so called "FSA" is a minor force) and they will get organized. Once Syria becomes a sunni islamic state it can potentially be more dangerous than the tamed Assad regime. Hezzbalah will still get support from Iran (and they are quite autonomous to a certain degree), Hamas has already moved away from Asad and "gone revolution".

I'm still of the opinion that sunni fanatics are a much bigger threat than shia fanatics (especially in a global pov). With the success of the islamic revolution in Syria the power balance will shift even further in favor of sunni terror & islamic militancy.

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 07:11 AM
The Sunni will be busy with their internal Syrian rivalries. If they ever turn against Israel it will be nothing but harassment the Israelis are used to and know how to deal with.

You are cheering on the rupture of the Syrian government, and think that things will be better with some failed state north of your borders; like Somalia or Chechnya.
It will be a huge sore in the middle east that will export terrorism and extremist ideology en-masse, with armed gangs engaged in kidnapping, drug-trafficking, piracy on the coast and all sorts of other activities - and it will grow to become a threat for everyone of its neighbours from Turkey to Israel to Jordan.
I'm not even going to talk about who the Syrian civilian population will be better off under, because now at least you've dropped all pretenses that this is something that concerns you. Fair enough.
You are delusional if you think that building some wall or stationing forces on the border will stop the instability and chaos from spreading - you are concerned chiefly about the lives of Israel's citizens, but fail to take into account that their security also depends on the region not falling further into anarchy. Terrorist attacks against Turkey, Europe, US will quickly spark further warfare and thus more threats to Israel. This is not some Hezbollah or Hamas we're talking about here, but the prospect of a +20 million population country becoming another Afghanistan - you cannot really be so arrogant as to believe some wall will help you.

Ya22
02-09-2013, 07:16 AM
It will be a huge sore in the middle east that will export terrorism and extremist ideology en-masse, with armed gangs engaged in kidnapping, drug-trafficking, piracy on the coast and all sorts of other activities - and it will grow to become a threat for everyone of its neighbours from Turkey to Israel to Jordan.
That's the situation right now, you're not informed...

Like I said in my previews posts - you have no idea what you're talking about. You're just talking for the talkings..

JGXL836
02-09-2013, 07:18 AM
In other words. We would rather have hostile, probably unorganized, sunni hostile groups near our borders, than a organized semi-Shia tripartite axis of Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. And I agree; the Sunnis would never be a threat to Israel as Assad/Nasrallah has been.

At least not anytime soon after their victory over Assad/Nasrallah.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 07:26 AM
Crush6655, why are you talking to yourself? :-)

LOL..i'm not YA22(we are online together right now..). Anyway,no one can really know if it's better that Assad will stay or leave. The assumption is that the next regime will not be close to Hezbollah and Iran,but in the other hand,if it will be a radical religious regime,they might attack us directly..the next regime will probably not control all the country and Jihadist groups will do whatever they want. It will be very messy.

Camera
02-09-2013, 07:29 AM
You are cheering on the rupture of the Syrian government, and think that things will be better with some failed state north of your borders; like Somalia or Chechnya.

Never did that.


It will be a huge sore in the middle east that will export terrorism and extremist ideology en-masse, with armed gangs engaged in kidnapping, drug-trafficking, piracy on the coast and all sorts of other activities - and it will grow to become a threat for everyone of its neighbours from Turkey to Israel to Jordan.

The picture you describe fits perfectly the massive terror sponsoring by the Assad gang.


I'm not even going to talk about who the Syrian civilian population will be better off under, because now at least you've dropped all pretenses that this is something that concerns you. Fair enough.

Russia cares about Syrian civilians? What a joke.


You are delusional if you think that building some wall or stationing forces on the border will stop the instability and chaos from spreading - you are concerned chiefly about the lives of Israel's citizens, but fail to take into account that their security also depends on the region not falling further into anarchy. Terrorist attacks against Turkey, Europe, US will quickly spark further warfare and thus more threats to Israel. This is not some Hezbollah or Hamas we're talking about here, but the prospect of a +20 million population country becoming another Afghanistan - you cannot really be so arrogant as to believe some wall will help you.

Your knowledge of the region is based on RT reports. Syria will never turn into Afghanistan.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 07:38 AM
In any case,it will be very messy because it will take time for the next regime to control all the country and Jihadist groups will try to conduct terrorist attacks inside Syria and probably against Israel.

Camera
02-09-2013, 07:42 AM
Syrian president reshuffles economic Cabinet postsAssad reportedly appoints new heads to oil, finance, social affairs and other ministries; key security ministries remain unchanged
By ALBERT AJI (http://www.timesofisrael.com/writers/albert-aji/) and BASSEM MROUE (http://www.timesofisrael.com/writers/bassem-mroue/)

DAMASCUS, Syria (AP) — Syrian President Bashar Assad reshuffled his Cabinet Saturday, appointing new ministers to handle an economy ravaged by two years of uprising and civil war, Syria’s state media reported Saturday.

State TV said the ministries that were changed are those of oil, finance, social affairs, labor, housing, public works, and agriculture. Key security ministries such as defense and interior remained unchanged.

Saturday’s announcement comes amid major shortages. Power outages are common and Syrians in some areas must stand in hours-long lines for bread and gasoline.

The civil war, which has killed more than 60,000 people, has also heavily damaged infrastructure like oil pipelines, bridges and water and power stations. The airport in Syria’s largest city and commercial hub, Aleppo, is closed due to fighting. The US dollar exchanged Saturday for around 95 Syrian pounds at the black market, about half its value of 47 pounds to the dollar when the crisis began in March 2011.

The presidential decrees issued Saturday said that what used to be the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs has been split into two posts, apparently to give the new Ministry of Social Affairs responsibility for rising numbers of people who have fled from one part of the country to another to escape the fighting.

Jens Laerke, a spokesman for the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, said Tuesday that 2 million people have been displaced inside Syria while 4 million need urgent help. Those numbers could rise if fighting continues, he said.
He said the humanitarian situation in Syria had reached “catastrophic” proportions, with some 2.5 million people lacking food.

CONTINUED: http://www.timesofisrael.com/syrian-president-reshuffles-economic-cabinet-posts/

Surenas
02-09-2013, 07:44 AM
At least not anytime soon after their victory over Assad/Nasrallah.

In my opinion, never. Their lack of discipline, strategical insight, technology and internal disputes will make sure that they will never pose a significant threat to Israel. They will be more a threat to Lebanon and Iraq. And besides that, I expect they will eventually follow the same path as Egypt is following now under the Muslim Brotherhood.

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 07:46 AM
The picture you describe fits perfectly the massive terror sponsoring by the Assad gang.

No it doesn't; what Assad did is sponsor a friendly Islamist group that was in his political interests to sponsor; but that's no different to anything the US, Turkey, or Russia at one point were doing.
I'm talking about the whole country becoming one giant failed state and exporting nothing other than radical ideology, training services for international jihadists, piracy, banditry & drugs.


Russia cares about Syrian civilians? What a joke.

What's this got to do with Russia?

You were talking all high and mighty about the Syrian's right to overthrow their dictator and so on, and I was talking about what would better for the country and people itself.
But now suddenly it's OK even if Syria becomes a failed state, because the most important thing is that you have your vengeance, and what's left there is not a threat to Israel anymore.


Your knowledge of the region is based on RT reports. Syria will never turn into Afghanistan.
Well Chechnya did and in the 80s it was more developed than Syria now. Hell even Afghanistan itself wasn't bad at all during the 60s and 70s; it was a progressive (for the region) society with an expanding economy.
I can see Syria becoming Afghanistan right now. All these rebels, armed gangs, destroyed buildings, ruined infastructure & economy, suicide bombings, masses of refugees, abandoned military equipment lying around everywhere, loss of government control in many regions.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 07:47 AM
In my opinion, never. Their lack of discipline, strategical insight, technology and internal disputes will make sure that they will never pose a significant threat to Israel. They will be more a threat to Lebanon and Iraq. And besides that, I expect they will eventually follow the same path as Egypt is following now under the Muslim Brotherhood.
The thing is that they will not control all their territory. It will take time to have an effective police,etc..Jihadist groups will try to conduct terrorist attacks.

Camera
02-09-2013, 07:48 AM
In my opinion, never. Their lack of discipline, strategical insight, technology and internal disputes will make sure that they will never pose a significant threat to Israel. They will be more a threat to Lebanon and Iraq. And besides that, I expect they will eventually follow the same path as Egypt is following now under the Muslim Brotherhood.

X2
Besides that, when they will have to manage the country, they will lose of their influence as they will face the same difficulties the MBs face in Egypt and Tunisia.
Ironically, the only place the MB's power is stable is in the Gaza ***** which receives massive external aid.

Camera
02-09-2013, 08:05 AM
No it doesn't; what Assad did is sponsor a friendly Islamist group that was in his political interests to sponsor; but that's no different to anything the US, Turkey, or Russia at one point were doing.
I'm talking about the whole country becoming one giant failed state and exporting nothing other than radical ideology, training services for international jihadists, piracy, banditry & drugs.

You don't know what you are talking about.
It's not just about Hezbollah terrorists who took control of Lebanon, a country the Assads destabilize for almost 40 years, and about which you do not care. It's also about funding and arming Hamas, Islamic Jihad, FPLP-GC… and many other terror groups who killed over 1,000 Israelis in the last decade.


What's this got to do with Russia?

It has to do, because Russia linked its policy in this country to a single mafia like family that rules the country like it was its private business.


You were talking all high and mighty about the Syrian's right to overthrow their dictator and so on, and I was talking about what would better for the country and people itself.

It's not my business neither yours, but its the business of the Syrians to know what is better for them.


But now suddenly it's OK even if Syria becomes a failed state, because the most important thing is that you have your vengeance, and what's left there is not a threat to Israel anymore.

I never sais I wanted Syria to become a failed state, neither expressed vengeance wishes. I said that from a strategic POV a Syria without Assad is better for Israel even if it is failed state during a transition period.


Well Chechnya did and in the 80s it was more developed than Syria now. Hell even Afghanistan itself wasn't bad at all during the 60s and 70s; it was a progressive (for the region) society with an expanding economy.
I can see Syria becoming Afghanistan right now. All these rebels, armed gangs, destroyed buildings, ruined infastructure & economy, suicide bombings, masses of refugees, abandoned military equipment lying around everywhere, loss of government control in many regions.

Had Assad initiated political reforms and left power none of this would have happened. The responsibilities lies on him and those who support him.

Ya22
02-09-2013, 08:10 AM
LOL..i'm not YA22(we are online together right now..).
Laker1 is on the laptop, I'm on the PC and crush6655 is on the tablet.. I'm one person :-D

Stuja
02-09-2013, 08:20 AM
At least under Assad there was no sectarian warfare and destruction. But his security forces caused this with all the rape and torture in the beginning. :p it's like the boy who cried wolf first they blamed jihadis and now they are actually fighting them lol

prince99x
02-09-2013, 08:21 AM
They seem disorganized now, but when Asad falls, the jihadists will take over (the so called "FSA" is a minor force) and they will get organized. Once Syria becomes a sunni islamic state it can potentially be more dangerous than the tamed Assad regime. Hezzbalah will still get support from Iran (and they are quite autonomous to a certain degree), Hamas has already moved away from Asad and "gone revolution".I'm still of the opinion that sunni fanatics are a much bigger threat than shia fanatics (especially in a global pov). With the success of the islamic revolution in Syria the power balance will shift even further in favor of sunni terror & islamic militancy.Hamas leader Khaled mashaal said that president Asad is still supporting Hamas even after it/she/he left Damascus.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 08:26 AM
You don't know what you are talking about. It's not just about Hezbollah terrorists who took control of Lebanon, a country the Assads destabilize for almost 40 years, and about which you do not care. It's also about funding and arming Hamas, Islamic Jihad, FPLP-GC* and many other terror groups who killed over 1,000 Israelis in the last decade. It has to do, because Russia linked its policy in this country to a single mafia like family that rules the country like it was its private business. It's not my business neither yours, but its the business of the Syrians to know what is better for them. I never sais I wanted Syria to become a failed state, neither expressed vengeance wishes. I said that from a strategic POV a Syria without Assad is better for Israel even if it is failed state during a transition period. Had Assad initiated political reforms and left power none of this would have happened. The responsibilities lies on him and those who support him.So by ur words the Asad survival is a winning for him over the west.Again by ur words he is winning by just staying in the lead.Correct me.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 08:27 AM
Hamas leader Khaled mashaal said that president Asad is still supporting Hamas even after it/she/he left Damascus.http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/khaled-meshaal-hamas-fatah-in-unity-talks/138749/

Camera
02-09-2013, 08:31 AM
So by ur words the Asad survival is a winning for him over the west.Again by ur words he is winning by just staying in the lead.Correct me.

There's a difference between surviving and winning. Assad still survives because we are not taking part to the armed conflict. We just destroy his economy and preventing him, this way, from ever winning this war.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 08:37 AM
There's a difference between surviving and winning. Assad still survives because we are not taking part to the armed conflict. We just destroy his economy and preventing him, this way, from ever winning this war.

When Assad will not have money to pay his soldiers,it will be the end of him.

Camera
02-09-2013, 08:39 AM
When Assad will not have money to pay his soldiers,it will be the end of him.

He will continue to print money in Russia until the Syrian Lira will have as much value as Monopoly bills.

Stuja
02-09-2013, 08:42 AM
If there were no sanctions would the Syrian government be able to support a working economy anyway ?

Camera
02-09-2013, 08:44 AM
If there were no sanctions would the Syrian government be able to support a working economy anyway ?

At this stage, I don't have the impression it could. It does not control anymore the oil wells that were its main source of foreign currency.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 08:47 AM
There's a difference between surviving and winning. Assad still survives because we are not taking part to the armed conflict. We just destroy his economy and preventing him, this way, from ever winning this war.No u just make it hard to get Europe made products.You just make it hard to get anti-virus updates.That's the full effect of this sanctions nothing more.Syria has water and food enough for her and export some too.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 08:49 AM
At this stage, I don't have the impression it could. It does not control anymore the oil wells that were its main source of foreign currency.Who in the hell told u that we don't control our oil wells.

Camera
02-09-2013, 08:50 AM
No u just make it hard to get Europe made products.You just make it hard to get anti-virus updates.That's the full effect of this sanctions nothing more.Syria has water and food enough for her and export some too.

Had Assad accepted medical assistance by UN agencies, the Syrians would have get it. The sanctions disrupt Assad's war economy.

Camera
02-09-2013, 08:50 AM
Who in the hell told u that we don't control our oil wells.

Many if not most of them were captured by the rebels in Eastern Syria. There were reports posted about it in this thread.

Arbody
02-09-2013, 08:51 AM
When Assad will not have money to pay his soldiers,it will be the end of him.
Sure :roll: and then Christian and Alawite soldiers will let Sunni and Wahabi terroristst to cut their throats and rape their women???

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:04 AM
Rebels close in on heart of Damascus


Rebel fighters moved closer to the Syrian capital of Damascus on Friday, with fierce battles against government forces reported on the periphery of the city resulting in over 40 deaths, opposition groups said.

By News Wires (http://www.france24.com/en/category/tags-auteurs/news-wires) (text)

Syrian government forces battled on Friday to recapture sections of the Damascus ring road from rebels pressing in on the capital, opposition activists said.

War planes fired rockets around Jobar, Qaboun and Barzeh neighbourhoods, the sources said. Heavy fighting was taking place at the Hermalleh junction on the ring road just south of Jobar, which had been seized by the rebels.

Rebel fighters based in the eastern Ghouta region broke through government defensive lines on Wednesday, capturing parts of the road and entering Jobar, 2 km (one mile) from security bases in the heart of the city.

(…)

The Local Coordination Committees, an opposition activist group, said 44 people were killed in Damascus on Friday. They said 46 people were killed on Thursday, mostly from army shelling.


With a supply line open to military bases on the coast, Assad’s core forces from his minority Alawite sect are still based comfortably in the Qasioun mountains on the northwest edge of Damascus, from where they have been shelling the suburbs.

Rebel commanders say they have made mistakes in the past, entering Damascus and other cities without first cutting army supply lines.

Fawaz Tello, a veteran opposition campaigner connected with rebels in Damascus, said the operation was part of a slow encroachment by rebels on the capital.

“Even if the rebels withdraw from the ring road, it will become, like other parts of the capital, too dangerous for the regime to use it,” said Tello, speaking from Berlin.

“We are witnessing a ‘two steps forward, one step back’ rebel strategy. It is a long way before we can say Assad has become besieged in Damascus, but when another main road is rendered useless for him the noose tightens and his control further erodes.”

http://www.france24.com/en/20130209-syria-rebels-close-damascus-jobar

Stuja
02-09-2013, 09:05 AM
Sure :roll: and then Christian and Alawite soldiers will let Sunni and Wahabi terroristst to cut their throats and rape their women???
Yea I am sure there are a good amount of experienced Syrian infantry soldiers that also know the government collapsing is worse

Climber
02-09-2013, 09:07 AM
Sure :roll: and then Christian and Alawite soldiers will let Sunni and Wahabi terroristst to cut their throats and rape their women???

What have this thing to do with what Laker1 said?

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:07 AM
By now, the massacres were authored by the government and the Shabiha.

Arbody
02-09-2013, 09:10 AM
What have this thing to do with what Laker1 said?
Use your brain it may help.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 09:11 AM
Sure :roll: and then Christian and Alawite soldiers will let Sunni and Wahabi terroristst to cut their throats and rape their women???

It's a good question,but i don't think that they will work without getting salaries..what you would do if you wouldn't get your salary? You would continue to work?..

Stuja
02-09-2013, 09:13 AM
By now, the massacres were authored by the government and the Shabiha.
I can't imagine the kind of systematic rape and torture that happens in Syria especially in areas where protests began, horrible

Arbody
02-09-2013, 09:14 AM
It's a good question,but i don't think that they will work without getting salaries..what you would do if you wouldn't get your salary? You would continue to work?..
Nope, but after two years it's not matter of salary anymore I think. It's matter of life and death.You won't take your money to the grave.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 09:16 AM
Many if not most of them were captured by the rebels in Eastern Syria. There were reports posted about it in this thread.I know that but the reports can't keep up with the real time changing world.

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:20 AM
I know that but the reports can't keep up with the real time changing world.

Do you have a link to a report saying the SAA recaptured the wells?

Vespasian
02-09-2013, 09:24 AM
At least under Assad there was no sectarian warfare and destruction. But his security forces caused this with all the rape and torture in the beginning. :p it's like the boy who cried wolf first they blamed jihadis and now they are actually fighting them lol

Although I'm sure there were some war crimes, I wouldn't say it was anywhere near as wide spread as the western media has portrayed. I'm just noticing during this conflict how much western media outlets are used as propaganda machines for their respective governments. Ofcourse all governments do it, but it is very difficult to find objective media sources about the conflict.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 09:26 AM
Nope, but after two years it's not matter of salary anymore I think. It's matter of life and death.You won't take your money to the grave.

If i understand you well,you are saying that even if they will leave Assad ,they will have to fight because the "rebels" will try to kill them,Right? It's very possible that they will want "revenge" ,but i don't think that it will be in their interests to kill Alwaites when they will be in power because they will not get any support from the West and it will be very important for them to get the support of the West to build their country(as long as it's not an Islamist regime..if it will be an Islamist regime,the West will not support them i guess..) ,so i don't think that they will hunt Alawites systematically. Maybe only top officials ,but not the entire Alwaite population.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Do you have a link to a report saying the SAA recaptured the wells?No but i have those facts. 1- We had surplus in gasoline and we exported it.2-The oil refinery in Hims us bumped up and working as hell, tens of oil tankers trucks im seeing everday on my way to college.

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:28 AM
Although I'm sure there were some war crimes, I wouldn't say it was anywhere near as wide spread as the western media has portrayed. I'm just noticing during this conflict how much western media outlets are used as propaganda machines for their respective governments. Ofcourse all governments do it, but it is very difficult to find objective media sources about the conflict.

Had Assad preferred objective reporting, he would have let the international media to enter Syria and cover the uprising. The fact he didn't suggests that crimes were widely spread than it was reported.

Arbody
02-09-2013, 09:33 AM
If i understand you,You are saying that even if they will leave Assad they will have to fight because the "rebels" will try to kill them,Right? It's very possible that they will want to "revenge" but i don't think tha it will be in their interests to kill Alwaites when they will be in power because they will not get any support from the world and it will be very important for them to get the support of the West to build their country(as long as it's not an Islamist regime,if it will be an Islamist regime,the West will not support them i guess..) ,so i don't think that they will hunt Alawites systematically. Maybe only top officials ,but not the entire Alwaite population.
West is trying to hava a cookie and ate a cookie it doesn't work this way in a long term. If you will look in to the past and history in that region. You'll have the answer. Islamist will suppress any even cripple "pro-democtaric" movement in Syria, freedome and democracy is not what they are fighting for.

Had Assad preferred objective reporting, he would have let the international media to enter Syria and cover the uprising. The fact he didn't suggests that crimes were widely spread than it was reported.
Such a fail. Western media aren't interested from the begining in truth and balanced reports. Why should Assad trust them anyway?

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:33 AM
No but i have those facts. 1- We had surplus in gasoline and we exported it.2-The oil refinery in Hims us bumped up and working as hell, tens of oil tankers trucks im seeing everday on my way to college.

It doesn't mean the SAA controls the wells. The refinery can work on stocked oil. As long as I know, the SAA lost further ground in the East rather than recapturing it.

Climber
02-09-2013, 09:37 AM
nevermind


1234556

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:39 AM
(…)

Such a fail. Western media aren't interested from the begining in truth and balanced reports. Why should Assad trust them anyway?

BS.
Most Western media are independent, their editorial line do not relies on governmental agenda. Journalists criticize their own governments without being mysteriously killed like in some authoritative states, if you see what I mean. ;)

Arbody
02-09-2013, 09:39 AM
nevermind


1234556
Dude :cantbeli: .

BS.
Most Western media are independent, their reporting do not relies on governmental agenda. Journalists criticize their own governments without being mysteriously killed like in some authoritative states.
You are living in a wonderland.

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:42 AM
(…)

You are living in a wonderland.

I live in France. Our journalists criticize our presidents and none was killed for doing so as it did happen in your country.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 09:44 AM
Dude :cantbeli: .You are living in a wonderland.Camera need an electric shock to wake up and see the real world not the perfect world.

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:46 AM
Camera need an electric shock to wake up and see the real world not the perfect world.

Up to now, the electric shock, you are the one to experience it. ;)

Arbody
02-09-2013, 09:48 AM
I live in France. Our journalists criticize our presidents and none was killed for doing so as it did happen in your country.
This is bright example of how media works in the west. You don't even have any idea what you are talking about but you know better. Tell me please how many journalists Putin killed.

Vespasian
02-09-2013, 09:50 AM
Such a fail. Western media aren't interested from the begining in truth and balanced reports. Why should Assad trust them anyway?

This man speaks the truth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK3Ss4GARPA

BBC is a joke news station, kinda like CNN and Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera also has a vested interest in their propaganda, because they are owned by one of the countries arming the terrorists. Many journalists have quit Al Jazeera because of their bulls**t propaganda.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x--Td_8JXYk

Where is all the western media coverage about the uprising in Bahrain?

Laker1
02-09-2013, 09:50 AM
West is trying to hava a cookie and ate a cookie it doesn't work this way in a long term. If you will look in to the past and history in that region. You'll have the answer. Islamist will suppress any even cripple "pro-democtaric" movement in Syria, freedome and democracy is not what they are fighting for.


I'm not saying that there will be democracy in Syria but you also can't ignore the fact that Assad is a brutal dictator. The question is ,if the next regime will be better or worse..i don't think that they will have a democratic country,but probably it will not be bad like under Assad's rule and the Shabiha. The biggest question is if the regime will be an Islamist one like you have in Egypt,Tunisia and other places or a secular one. The "rebels" will fight between themselves over the power. You have "rebels" that are jihadists and you have secular ones. We will see who will take the power..

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:52 AM
This is bright example of how media works in the west. You don't even have any idea what you are talking about but you know better. Tell me please how many journalists Putin killed.

I don't know who killed the Russian journalists, but in France journalists risk nothing if they criticize the gov and no journalist was killed in mysteriously circumstances.

tea drinker
02-09-2013, 09:54 AM
I live in France. Our journalists criticize our presidents and none was killed for doing so as it did happen in your country.
Well our premier suggested they kill themselves, so that's ok. p-)
Western media is frequently biased - you know this and that's why if you want the truth you use other sources for stories.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 09:54 AM
Up to now, the electric shock, you are the one to experience it. ;)Yeah definitely :).

Stuja
02-09-2013, 09:56 AM
U say bbc is a propaganda joke but then post Russia today ... Both are lol !

Camera
02-09-2013, 09:58 AM
Well our premier suggested they kill themselves, so that's ok. p-)
Western media is frequently biased - you know this and that's why if you want the truth you use other sources for stories.

I know it and I don't take for granted any report. Nevertheless, the freedom of press offers a diversified coverage from multiple independent sources. The fact Assad did not let the press cover the uprising suggests it was his interest to keep blackout over what's going on rather than exposing it.

Stuja
02-09-2013, 10:00 AM
Although I'm sure there were some war crimes, I wouldn't say it was anywhere near as wide spread as the western media has portrayed. I'm just noticing during this conflict how much western media outlets are used as propaganda machines for their respective governments. Ofcourse all governments do it, but it is very difficult to find objective media sources about the conflict.
Interesting point but even a lower amount of rape and ****** assault still causes animosity and hatred.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 10:01 AM
I don't know who killed the Russian journalists, but in France journalists risk nothing if they criticize the gov and no journalist was killed in mysteriously circumstances.It's rude to lugh at deaths but ur post up here made me lol .Hence thats french camera man killed in Hims by a mortor round by the very French-supported armed gangs.For sure no journalists die in mysterious circumstances but in all lies circumstances.In Arabic we say that ur being a sheep-ed for ur gov BS stories.

tea drinker
02-09-2013, 10:02 AM
I know it and I don't take for granted any report. Nevertheless, the freedom of press offers a diversified coverage from multiple independent sources. The fact Assad did not let the press cover the uprising suggests it was his interest to keep blackout over what's going on rather than exposing it.
You were impressed by the detailed Israeli coverage of the recent strike? But yes, generally corruption loves silence.

Vespasian
02-09-2013, 10:06 AM
I'm not saying that there will be democracy in Syria but you also can't ignore the fact that Assad is a brutal dictator.

Brutal how? Last time I checked Syria was a secular country where different religions and etnicities lived side by side in peace and prosperity? They are also in zero debt to the IMF, and their economy was actually growing during the financial crisis. Also Assad was moving towards reforms of the constitution to allow for free elections.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 10:06 AM
RT is not better than BBC. They are all biased. If you look for example on the coverage of the Israeli-Arab conflict in RT,it's more biased than in Al-Jezzera. They only talk about Israeli settlements and not about Arab rocket attacks and other things.

Camera
02-09-2013, 10:07 AM
It's rude to lugh at deaths but ur post up here made me lol .Hence thats french camera man killed in Hims by a mortor round by the very French-supported armed gangs.For sure no journalists die in mysterious circumstances but in all lies circumstances.In Arabic we say that ur being a sheep-ed for ur gov BS stories.

You see it from your perspective of a citizen of a country in which the media are controlled by the gov. It's not the case in France. The media publish for sure a lot of BS and a fraction of them practice serious reporting but none relies on the government.
Our media focus mostly on France's internal affairs and on governmental scandals, when such occur, rather than on Syria or any other international affairs.

Vespasian
02-09-2013, 10:09 AM
U say bbc is a propaganda joke but then post Russia today ... Both are lol !

Yeah I don't put much stock in RT's reporting either, but a lot of media outlets reported on the Al Jazeera journalists quiting.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 10:09 AM
Brutal how? Last time I checked Syria was a secular country where different religions and etnicities lived side by side in peace and prosperity? They are also in zero debt to the IMF, and their economy was actually growing during the financial crisis. Also Assad was moving towards reforms of the constitution to allow for free elections.
They didn't have any freedoms under his rule..if you were against the regime,you could be jailed or something like that.

Arbody
02-09-2013, 10:11 AM
RT is not better than BBC. They are all biased. If you look for example on the coverage of the Israeli-Arab conflict in RT,it's more biased than in Al-Jezzera. They only talk about Israeli settlements and not about Arab rocket attacks and other things.
Of course they talk about it but they showing it in a different light. RT shows selective facts but they don't lie, BBC lying straight in your face.

Camera
02-09-2013, 10:12 AM
You were impressed by the detailed Israeli coverage of the recent strike? But yes, generally corruption loves silence.

The Israeli press is submitted to military censure when it comes to military operations. The journalists can report whatever they want as long as it was published abroad, but they can not reveal details from their Israeli sources if those details are forbidden for publication by military censure.

Stuja
02-09-2013, 10:13 AM
Yeah I don't put much stock in RT's reporting either, but a lot of media outlets reported on the Al Jazeera journalists quiting.
Yea I don't know about the al jazeera Arabic. I used to be a fan of al jazeera english but after awhile the Syria bias was getting ****ing ridiculous.

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 10:14 AM
You don't know what you are talking about.
It's not just about Hezbollah terrorists who took control of Lebanon, a country the Assads destabilize for almost 40 years, and about which you do not care. It's also about funding and arming Hamas, Islamic Jihad, FPLP-GC… and many other terror groups who killed over 1,000 Israelis in the last decade.

Lebanon will be the next domino to fall if Assad falls and Syria becomes a cesspool of extremism and armed bands. That place will light up like a Christmas tree; in fact the first signs of it already there.
And if Lebanon collapses; that will be even more trouble for Israel.
This is what I mean when I said that a failed state cannot be contained or walled-off, and it will spill out to everywhere around it.


It has to do, because Russia linked its policy in this country to a single mafia like family that rules the country like it was its private business.

It's not Russia's place to say to a people, who they should or shouldn't be ruled by.
Russia deals with a country's government as it is - because there is no other government that represents those people, and the Russians are not interested in provoking any conflicts.
Of course there are some minimum standards; Russia wouldn't deal with the Taliban for example. And I'd argue that Russia needs some more principles too.
But Assad's Syria was probably one of the best countries in the Middle East by any measure.

If you want to critisise Russia for something - you can take a look at Chechnya for example; where Russia has installed a brutal dictator who has created a semi-Islamist fiefdom for himself and his clan, that only pays lip-service to the Russian constitution.
Now that was a mistake.
Russia's policy on Syria however is absolutely no mistake - it's the best out of any other country and mainly encourages reconciliation rather than trying to provoke conflict.


It's not my business neither yours, but its the business of the Syrians to know what is better for them.

You're right, that's why I support Russia not interfering and counter-acting moves by other countries to interfere in the Syrian conflict.


I never sais I wanted Syria to become a failed state, neither expressed vengeance wishes. I said that from a strategic POV a Syria without Assad is better for Israel even if it is failed state during a transition period.

If it ends up as a failed state - there will be no transition to anything. And there will be no possibilities of peace treaties, or deterrence, or diplomacy - there will be no-one to negotiate with.


Had Assad initiated political reforms and left power none of this would have happened. The responsibilities lies on him and those who support him.

Maybe, but even more so - Assad's mistake was siding with Iran rather than jumping on the Gulf Arab bandwagon and teaming up with the 'good guys'

prince99x
02-09-2013, 10:16 AM
You see it from your perspective of a citizen of a country in which the media are controlled by the gov. It's not the case in France. The media publish for sure a lot of BS and a fraction of them practice serious reporting but none relies on the government. Our media focus mostly on France's internal affairs and on governmental scandals, when such occur, rather than on Syria or any other international affairs.True it was W A S fully controlled by gov but now with the new media assets revolution(non- gov channels,non-gov magz websites fb pages ..etc ,better secretary of media)the situation is thousands times better,more powerful,more honest,more truth,and i hope it will continue up to the best.

Vespasian
02-09-2013, 10:16 AM
They didn't have any freedoms under his rule..if you were against the regime,you could be jailed or something like that.

Define, 'against the regime,' Syria was working towards changes in it's constitution to allow for free elections. I'd rather have Assad than Muslim fundamentalists who are going to try and introduce Sharia law. I don't think I would fancy being a christian or an Alawite/Shiite in Syria if the SNC come to power.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 10:19 AM
Of course they talk about it but they showing it in a different light. RT shows selective facts but they don't lie, BBC lying straight in your face.

To be selective it means biased..you must report on everything that happends in both sided. They must report on the settlements and they must report on the rocket attacks. They only report when Israel bombs Gaza. They don't say what happend before. Maybe it's because the rockets usually don't injure or kill,but they still must report on it and on other things that the Arabs do. Not only about building in the settlements and other things that Israel does.

Vespasian
02-09-2013, 10:21 AM
Assad's mistake was siding with Iran rather than jumping on the Gulf Arab bandwagon and teaming up with the 'good guys'

I wouldn't call them, 'good guys,' but having any sort of alliance with Iran was always going to bring trouble for Assad.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 10:22 AM
Yea I don't know about the al jazeera Arabic. I used to be a fan of al jazeera english but after awhile the Syria bias was getting ****ing ridiculous.OMG u don't need a single clip of the Arabic version,its pure stupidity of BS injection methods into the empty minds of unconscious Arab people.The definition above is a registered mark by me.

bionic
02-09-2013, 10:23 AM
Of course they talk about it but they showing it in a different light. RT shows selective facts but they don't lie, BBC lying straight in your face.

Ahahaha don磘 tell me you are really believing in what you are writing... there is not a single News Agency out there that is not lying or twisting facts......rofl

Laker1
02-09-2013, 10:29 AM
Define, 'against the regime,' Syria was working towards changes in it's constitution to allow for free elections. I'd rather have Assad than Muslim fundamentalists who are going to try and introduce Sharia law. I don't think I would fancy being a christian or an Alawite/Shiite in Syria if the SNC come to power.

I don't know in details..i know in general that the Baathist regime is a brutal dictatorship that doesn't allow the people to express themselves. Assad won the elections in 98-99%(i don't remember exactly). I don't think that Stalin got votes like that..i don't ignore the fact that the West is against Assad more because of his ties to Iran and that he supports terrorists and he is anti West rather than because of the human rights in the country,but the West didn't start the rebellion in Syria. The Syrians started it like in other Arab countries.

Camera
02-09-2013, 10:36 AM
Lebanon will be the next domino to fall if Assad falls and Syria becomes a cesspool of extremism and armed bands. That place will light up like a Christmas tree; in fact the first signs of it already there.
And if Lebanon collapses; that will be even more trouble for Israel.
This is what I mean when I said that a failed state cannot be contained or walled-off, and it will spill out to everywhere around it.

I don't share your assessment. Troubles will spread to Lebanon, but I don't think the Lebanese society will restart the civil war


It's not Russia's place to say to a people, who they should or shouldn't be ruled by.
Russia deals with a country's government as it is - because there is no other government that represents those people, and the Russians are not interested in provoking any conflicts.
Of course there are some minimum standards; Russia wouldn't deal with the Taliban for example. And I'd argue that Russia needs some more principles too.

In this regard, your standards are lower than ours.


But Assad's Syria was probably one of the best countries in the Middle East by any measure.

It was a so wonderful place that its citizens had nothing else to do but to start a civil war. ;)


If you want to critisise Russia for something - you can take a look at Chechnya for example; where Russia has installed a brutal dictator who has created a semi-Islamist fiefdom for himself and his clan, that only pays lip-service to the Russian constitution.
Now that was a mistake.

Maybe your mistake is to project on Syria what happened in Chechenia, even though the situation and the story are different.


Russia's policy on Syria however is absolutely no mistake - it's the best out of any other country and mainly encourages reconciliation rather than trying to provoke conflict.

After meeting Lavrov, the opposition leader proposed last week a dialogue with the deputy-president of Syria. Assad rejected the offer. What do you need more to understand that Syrian national interests pales in comparison to Assad's clan private interests?


………SNIP........

If it ends up as a failed state - there will be no transition to anything. And there will be no possibilities of peace treaties, or deterrence, or diplomacy - there will be no-one to negotiate with.

It will be forcefully a transition to stability. Even more bloody revolutions ended, sooner or later, by reaching stability.
Otherwise, there were no peace treaties in the last 40 years neither.


Maybe, but even more so - Assad's mistake was siding with Iran rather than jumping on the Gulf Arab bandwagon and teaming up with the 'good guys'

Assad faults were:

1. To oppress his people to the point they revolted against his rule.
2. To practice an international policy of terror sponsor.

Surenas
02-09-2013, 10:41 AM
What I remember from the last time I've visited Damascus is that the city was full with plain clothes intelligence officers, who stopped me occasionally by asking me for my passport.

Ya22
02-09-2013, 10:44 AM
What I remember from the last time I've visited Damascus is that the city was full with plain clothes intelligence officers, who stopped me occasionally asking me for my passport.
Very healthy country..

Climber
02-09-2013, 10:44 AM
You were impressed by the detailed Israeli coverage of the recent strike? But yes, generally corruption loves silence.

The Israeli press covered the raid plenty, and you tell me that because the IDF and the government have a policy of so called "ambiguity" regarding those things, that make them corrupt? its there a law in the UK that makes the Gov files accessible to the press? no? I thought so.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 11:01 AM
What I remember from the last time I've visited Damascus is that the city was full with plain clothes intelligence officers, who stopped me occasionally by asking me for my passport.

They are afraid from foregin spies or something like that..

Arbody
02-09-2013, 11:08 AM
They are afraid from foregin spies or something like that..
Time shows that they were right.

Camera
02-09-2013, 11:11 AM
What I remember from the last time I've visited Damascus is that the city was full with plain clothes intelligence officers, who stopped me occasionally by asking me for my passport.

These guys worked for the Mukhabarat. They could have arrested you and tortured you like they have done to tens of thousands of people.

Surenas
02-09-2013, 11:14 AM
These guys worked for the Mukhabarat. They could have arrested you and tortured you like they have done to tens of thousands of people.

Correct. They even have arrested Iranian (Arab) dissidents like Abdullah al-Mansouri and extradited them to Iran. But I guess I'm not that much of a threat to them.

Piano
02-09-2013, 11:16 AM
The BBC has problems. But nobody with an IQ above 90 could watch Russia Today with a straight face. It is complete trash, and a thousand times more biased than the BBC. This forum is full of retards.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 11:16 AM
Time shows that they were right.

How do you know that there are spies? I'm sure there are but they can't oust Assad by themselves..

Camera
02-09-2013, 11:18 AM
'We don't want weapons to fall into wrong hands'
White House says decision to rebuff plan to arm Syrian rebels was due to fear that weapon reaches hands of terrorists; 'no weapon shortage in Syria," press secretary says

Yitzhak Benhorin

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4342816,00.html

Laker1
02-09-2013, 11:19 AM
'We don't want weapons to fall into wrong hands'


White House says decision to rebuff plan to arm Syrian rebels was due to fear that weapon reaches hands of terrorists; 'no weapon shortage in Syria," press secretary says

Yitzhak Benhorin

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4342816,00.html

One of the few things that Obama does right..he shouldn't give them weapons. They will reach the hands of radical Muslims. Many of the "rebels" have big beards. A big beard is not a good sign..

ZapB
02-09-2013, 11:39 AM
One of the few things that Obama does right..he shouldn't give them weapons. They will reach the hands of radical Muslims. Many of the "rebels" have big beards. A big beard is not a good sign..
This may sound racialist, but it's actually a good rule (one that it's easy to remember, even for stupid & shortsighted western politicians): The bigger the beard, the less weapons you should give them.

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 12:11 PM
In this regard, your standards are lower than ours.

Well since you've brought my country into it (although I still don't know why), then I'll just say that your comment is rich considering the French support to the Gulf Arab Islamist monarchies and the Islamist rebels fighting Assad in Syria!

Camera
02-09-2013, 12:26 PM
Well since you've brought my country into it (although I still don't know why), then I'll just say that your comment is rich considering the French support to the Gulf Arab Islamist monarchies and the Islamist rebels fighting Assad in Syria!

France does not support the 'Islamist rebels fighting Assad in Syria' and we support the Gulf monarchies for their oil.

Genotype
02-09-2013, 01:23 PM
The BBC has problems. But nobody with an IQ above 90 could watch Russia Today with a straight face. It is complete trash, and a thousand times more biased than the BBC. This forum is full of retards.

Unfortunately, this. People here are calling the BBC biased, then will post news from RT, PressTV or Al Manar with a straight face.

Apparently the real definition of bias now means "does not agree with your world view".

Back to talking about Syria anyway. Cabinet reshuffle.

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-president-reshuffles-economic-cabinet-posts-090606937.html;_ylt=AnGupDxRflHINTNIvh6wqDlvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTNyb2NsNHJyBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBXb3JsZFNGBHBrZwM2MTM1YWZkMi1jNWFhLTM3NjQtOGViZS0wMWQyYTkxNWNjZTUEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyA2UyOWJiZTMwLTcyYjktMTFlMi1hZjViLWMzMGI1NGRmZjg3MQ-;_ylg=X3oDMTFqOTI2ZDZmBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAN3b3JsZARwdANzZWN0aW9ucw--;_ylv=3


Syrian President Bashar Assad reshuffled his Cabinet on Saturday, appointing seven new ministers in a move that appeared aimed at trying to shore up an economy that has been ravaged by the country's 2-year-old revolt, state media said.
State TV said Assad replaced the heads of the oil, finance, social affairs, labor, housing, public works and agriculture ministries.

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 01:50 PM
This may sound racialist, but it's actually a good rule (one that it's easy to remember, even for stupid & shortsighted western politicians): The bigger the beard, the less weapons you should give them.

That one should be called:
The inverse proportional beard arms law

tea drinker
02-09-2013, 02:29 PM
The Israeli press covered the raid plenty, and you tell me that because the IDF and the government have a policy of so called "ambiguity" regarding those things, that make them corrupt? its there a law in the UK that makes the Gov files accessible to the press? no? I thought so.
If you recall we talk about lack of Assad co operating with press, I see little of this cooperation regarding the last raid. Where are the images from the strikes? Where is the detailed mission breakdown? Yes I understand this is a military concern, but contrast that with NATO operations as far back as '99 Serbia, and the level of detail there. And at this point - we knew more about the Osama op than what happened in Syria.
The corruption comment is merely an observation, I'm not describing the operation and coverage as that - yet ;-)
Sure we can say the Israeli work differently - but for some reason we can't say the same about Assad?


About the RT news channelt - of course RT is biased, but it is worth watching as it may have alternate information and facts which are unpalatable to other agencies - and vice versa of course. There is no shining beacon of light in the media world.
For me - BBC is pretty good. Even Al-Jazeera, thoguh it's slipping. Euronews was excellent, already slipped badly some years back.

Camera
02-09-2013, 02:36 PM
If you recall we talk about lack of Assad co operating with press, I see little of this cooperation regarding the last raid. Where are the images from the strikes? Where is the detailed mission breakdown? Yes I understand this is a military concern, but contrast that with NATO operations as far back as '99 Serbia, and the level of detail there. And at this point - we knew more about the Osama op than what happened in Syria.
The corruption comment is merely an observation, I'm not describing the operation and coverage as that - yet ;-)
Sure we can say the Israeli work differently - but for some reason we can't say the same about Assad?

You compare uncomparable things. In Israel local and foreign press have free access to the country and freedom to report. If the government is unwilling to acknowledge a military operation in Syria or Sudan, it is its right. If it wants to acknowledge operations in other contexts and to provide pictures of the strikes, it is its right too.

EITAN88
02-09-2013, 02:39 PM
If you recall we talk about lack of Assad co operating with press, I see little of this cooperation regarding the last raid. Where are the images from the strikes? Where is the detailed mission breakdown? Yes I understand this is a military concern, but contrast that with NATO operations as far back as '99 Serbia, and the level of detail there.

Israel is not NATO and lacks many of the luxuries that NATO countries enjoy.

I highly doubt that the Serbs were ever in a position to retaliate against London as Hizbollah and Syria are capable of doing to Tel-Aviv, that's essentially the crux of the matter and why your comparison is of apples and oranges.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 02:41 PM
No one says that governments should reveal details about covert operations and stuff like that..it doesn't have any connection to freedom of Press. There are things that no one should know about them including journalists.

Surenas
02-09-2013, 02:42 PM
Guys, please stay on topic. :)

Camera
02-09-2013, 02:43 PM
Release of pictures of the strike would have humiliated the Assad gang and would have forced it to retaliate. The Israeli planers are well aware of the psychology of their enemies.

Impartial Bias
02-09-2013, 02:43 PM
Morning, Gentlemen.
I've been out of the loop for about two weeks. Would anyone mind pointing out any noteworthy developments while I look over the last 150 or so pages?

ImpNavigator
02-09-2013, 02:43 PM
Meanwhile..
Official confirmation, that the Russians large landing ships in January brought military equipment in Tartus for the Syrian army according previously awarded contract.
http://www.itar-tass.com/c11/644836.html (In Russian)

Laker1
02-09-2013, 02:45 PM
Release of pictures of the strike would have humiliated the Assad gang and would have forced it to retaliate. The Israeli planers are well aware of the psychology of their enemies.

I'm not so sure because Assad himself revealed the strike..

Camera
02-09-2013, 02:46 PM
Morning, Gentlemen.
I've been out of the loop for about two weeks. Would anyone mind pointing out any noteworthy developments while I look over the last 150 or so pages?

The IAF attacked near Damascus A convoy of weapons that Assad sent to Hezbollah.
The rebels launched a wide scale offensive in Damascus two days ago.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 02:47 PM
Meanwhile..
Official confirmation, that the Russians large landing ships in January brought military equipment in Tartus for the Syrian army according previously awarded contract.
http://www.itar-tass.com/c11/644836.html (In Russian)

It's not a secret that Russia gives Assad weapons.

Camera
02-09-2013, 02:49 PM
Meanwhile..
Official confirmation, that the Russians large landing ships in January brought military equipment in Tartus for the Syrian army according previously awarded contract.
http://www.itar-tass.com/c11/644836.html (In Russian)

It's a shame.


I'm not so sure because Assad himself revealed the strike..

It was his own choice to do it and to reveal it in a why that suits him just as he did in 2007.

Impartial Bias
02-09-2013, 02:51 PM
The IAF attacked near Damascus A convoy of weapons that Assad sent to Hezbollah.
The rebels launched a wide scale offensive in Damascus two days ago.

I heard something about the IAF airstrike, it hit AA weapons going to Hezbollah, correct?
As for the offensive, is it limited to Darayya, or Damascus proper?
Thank you Camera.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 02:57 PM
It was his own choice to do it and to reveal it in a why that suits him just as he did in 2007.

And also then he didn't reply..but yes,we didn't make him look like a loser to lower the chances that he will reply..

Arbody
02-09-2013, 02:57 PM
Meanwhile..
Official confirmation, that the Russians large landing ships in January brought military equipment in Tartus for the Syrian army according previously awarded contract.
http://www.itar-tass.com/c11/644836.html (In Russian)
Good news !

ZapB
02-09-2013, 03:24 PM
It's not a secret that Russia gives Assad weapons.
A slight correction: Russia sells weapons to Assad

(And please lets not pretend that EU & USA doesn't equip dictatorial sh**holes / oppressive regimes with weapons too. I'm all for not equipping dictators & lunatics with weapons, but it seems even if you wont do it, someone else will. So "its all just business" in the end.)

Camera
02-09-2013, 03:40 PM
I heard something about the IAF airstrike, it hit AA weapons going to Hezbollah, correct?
As for the offensive, is it limited to Darayya, or Damascus proper?
Thank you Camera.

Yes it was a convoy of SAMs. The US said these were SA-17. SANA released pictures of 3 destroyed SA-8. Assad pretends the attack was against a recherche center even though sat pics show the attack aimed a convoy.
The offensive against Damascus is quite wide: the details are not very clear, but the rebels cut various routes and are not far from the city itself.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 03:40 PM
A slight correction: Russia sells weapons to Assad

(And please lets not pretend that EU & USA doesn't equip dictatorial sh**holes / oppressive regimes with weapons too. I'm all for not equipping dictators & lunatics with weapons, but it seems even if you wont do it, someone else will. So "its all just business" in the end.)

I didn't say that the West doesn't sell weapons to dictatorships..the thing is that Assad is involved in serious war.

Camera
02-09-2013, 03:42 PM
A slight correction: Russia sells weapons to Assad

(And please lets not pretend that EU & USA doesn't equip dictatorial sh**holes / oppressive regimes with weapons too. I'm all for not equipping dictators & lunatics with weapons, but it seems even if you wont do it, someone else will. So "its all just business" in the end.)

Not when they slaughter their people. Sales to Ghaddafi and to Bahrein were stopped as soon as they started to oppress the population.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 03:44 PM
Good news !What could it be?.About Hims news are great the unstoppable operation i told u about is revealing its great results.Gentlemen the Wadi Alsaeh or Alsaeh Valley district which cut the old city in two is under SAA control.Secondly the Kfr Aaea 8 km southwest Hims is under control .

geolocator
02-09-2013, 04:17 PM
Not when they slaughter their people. Sales to Ghaddafi and to Bahrein were stopped as soon as they started to oppress the population.
Russia supplies Syria mostly with air defense systems to protect it from an external aggression, like Israeli strikes. Non-opressed population in KSA sounds like a bad joke for me and the U.S. massive weapons supplies to attack other countries are not jokes too.

Camera
02-09-2013, 04:20 PM
Russia supplies Syria mostly with air defense systems to protect it from an external aggression, like Israeli strikes.

SAMs that find their way to Hezbollah?


Non-opressed population in KSA sounds like a bad joke for me

Never heard about an uprising in KSA.


and the U.S. massive weapons supplies to attack other countries are not jokes too.

???

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 04:23 PM
Not when they slaughter their people. Sales to Ghaddafi and to Bahrein were stopped as soon as they started to oppress the population.

What about selling weapons to countries that are defending their statehood against foreign Jihadists?
Good on Russia for standing by Syria.

Laker1
02-09-2013, 04:24 PM
Russia supplies Syria mostly with air defense systems to protect it from an external aggression, like Israeli strikes. Non-opressed population in KSA sounds like a bad joke for me and the U.S. massive weapons supplies to attack other countries are not jokes too.
But in Syria you have a serious war right now..

Surenas
02-09-2013, 04:24 PM
Not when they slaughter their people. Sales to Ghaddafi and to Bahrein were stopped as soon as they started to oppress the population.

Symbolic decisions. They knew from the beginning where those weapons would be used for. Its like giving a mentally handicapped man a gun with ammo, and then wonder and condemn if a accident occurred.

Camera
02-09-2013, 04:28 PM
Symbolic decisions. They knew from the beginning where those weapons would be used for. Its like giving a mentally handicapped man a gun with ammo, and then wonder and condemn if a accident occurred.

France has sold weapons to Ghadaffi and I was never proud of this. At least, we repaired our wrongs by destroying them when he started to kill his population. If Putin does the same with Assad I'd say 'Chapeau!"

themacedonian
02-09-2013, 04:30 PM
For a washiington post this is a sad article on possibility of more Israeli strikes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israeli-strike-in-syria-might-be-first-in-series/2013/02/09/2de6b1e2-721a-11e2-8b8d-e0b59a1b8e2a_story_1.html

Steak-Sauce
02-09-2013, 04:32 PM
For a washiington post this is a sad article on possibility of more Israeli strikes

Good. The more the better.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 04:33 PM
Camera I guess the point is it is hard to hold high moral ground in this conflict for anyone. All of this is not about morality it is a lot more about interests. I mean we should be fair in our assessments

Flamming_Python
02-09-2013, 04:44 PM
Nope, I think morality is an easy thing in this case.
Supporting Assad is doing the right thing.
Supporting the opposition to him is doing the wrong thing - they will lead the country into implosion.

Camera
02-09-2013, 04:46 PM
Camera I guess the point is it is hard to hold high moral ground in this conflict for anyone. All of this is not about morality it is a lot more about interests. I mean we should be fair in our assessments

A higher moral ground is what Obama and Hollande target: they don't provide weapons, they provide money for wheat, communication equipment and alike.
I should say I believe this policy is wrong and that Panetta was right. Had we provided weapons to the secular fractions of the FSA from the start, the Islamists wouldn't gain such influence.

Surenas
02-09-2013, 04:46 PM
Nope, I think morality is an easy thing in this case.
Supporting Assad is doing the right thing.
Supporting the opposition to him is doing the wrong thing - they will lead the country into implosion.

IMO there is no moral in this conflict. No right party, nor a battle between good and evil. Its all evil. The only party with whom I've compassion is the Syrian people.

prince99x
02-09-2013, 04:52 PM
A higher moral ground is what Obama and Hollande target: they don't provide weapons, they provide money for wheat, communication equipment and alike. I should say I believe this policy is wrong and that Panetta was right. Had we provided weapons to the secular fractions of the FSA from the start, the Islamists wouldn't gain such influence.Wheat !!!!!! . May the God help u.

Camera
02-09-2013, 04:54 PM
Wheat !!!!!! . May the God help u.

Thank you.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:03 PM
A higher moral ground is what Obama and Hollande target: they don't provide weapons, they provide money for wheat, communication equipment and alike.
I should say I believe this policy is wrong and that Panetta was right. Had we provided weapons to the secular fractions of the FSA from the start, the Islamists wouldn't gain such influence.

To be fair IMO they provide more than just equipment especially when it comes to communications. They facilitate the transfer of weapons to the theater from Estern European stocks or at the very least do nothing to stop it. Most importantly they provide the actual command and control for shock action along the full depth of Assad's defense. That is what makes rebels successes really possible IMO. No amount of deception can hide that simple fact. But this being a proxy conflict it is all fair.

The interests behind this war are based on cold blooded calculus and really are only vaguely associated with morality. No amount of very successful IW can really change this fact.

This is not to say Assad holds any moral ground whatsoever. No one does in this war.

Steak-Sauce
02-09-2013, 05:08 PM
And you can back up your claims about weapon transfers and C&C with apparently very "simple" facts, no?

Laker1
02-09-2013, 05:12 PM
To be fair IMO they provide more than just equipment especially when it comes to communications. They facilitate the transfer of weapons to the theater from Estern European stocks or at the very least do nothing to stop it. Most importantly they provide the actual command and control for shock action along the full depth of Assad's defense. That is what makes rebels successes really possible IMO. No amount of deception can hide that simple fact. But this being a proxy conflict it is all fair.

The interests behind this war are based on cold blooded calculus and really are only vaguely associated with morality. No amount of very successful IW can really change this fact.

This is not to say Assad holds any moral ground whatsoever. No one does in this war.

Every side has interest that the side that he supports will win..Assad will remain in power for more time than some think.

Laworkerbee
02-09-2013, 05:17 PM
A higher moral ground is what Obama and Hollande target: they don't provide weapons, they provide money for wheat, communication equipment and alike. I should say I believe this policy is wrong and that Panetta was right. Had we provided weapons to the secular fractions of the FSA from the start, the Islamists wouldn't gain such influence.

LuLz! morals and ethics are now rated like stock?

The United States provides satellite intelligence and targeting data and that in itself is more effective for the FSA than would be weapons. It hardly matters anyhow, it is not like the world isn't already the Gulfs arms bazaar.

The GCC has the weapons pipeline up already and you know damned well the Turks aren't going to let French and US intelligence agencies openly use their border as a logistics base for the FSA - I would have a hard time even believing that would be legal under NATO's charter but I digress once again.

I believe but can not prove that the American camp set up in Jordan tries to coordinate that intelligence with FSA actions - Why else would the FSA spend so much time ****ing around with Air Defense units? I find it hard to believe the FSA willing dies taking and attacking these positions for their non-existent FSA air force.


I also can't believe you people are even talking about morals in this thread. What?

This is about power and revenge and it's blinded everyone.

Al-Bundy
02-09-2013, 05:17 PM
A higher moral ground is what Obama and Hollande target: they don't provide weapons, they provide money for wheat, communication equipment and alike.
I should say I believe this policy is wrong and that Panetta was right. Had we provided weapons to the secular fractions of the FSA from the start, the Islamists wouldn't gain such influence.

No I don' think so. The Syrian Muslim brotherhood and salafis were and are always there behind the scenes whether you see them in the camera or not. Look at Tunisia, Libya, Egypt how Islamists gained a foothold even though the press was showing students, ordinary people striving for more rights and democracy...which now seems like total BS . I don't buy what is now being said "Islamist hijacked the Arab Spring". There were elections and they voted for Islamists which means that Arab leaders are as good as the people that put them in power. Bottom line i don't want to see the "West" giving any kind of support to al qaeda proxies and like minded that will turn the country to a "middle east version of Pakistan".

Not a fan of Obama but he took a right decision on this even though i do not know/read the exact reasons.

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:21 PM
To be fair IMO they provide more than just equipment especially when it comes to communications. They facilitate the transfer of weapons to the theater from Estern European stocks or at the very least do nothing to stop it.

These are assumptions. Had they provided the FSA with sophisticated western weapons - ATGM, MANPADS, night vision equipment… - the situation on the ground would have been different after two years of fight. But of course, such weapons should have been delivered to defectors of the SAA that are not Islamists.


Most importantly they provide the actual command and control for shock action along the full depth of Assad's defense. That is what makes rebels successes really possible IMO. No amount of deception can hide that simple fact. But this being a proxy conflict it is all fair.

They may provide some intelligence, but I don't think it is substantial. The rebels have plenty of people on the ground, within the population and probably within the SAA who acknowledge them about the plans, the deployments and movements of the military units. Don't forget that tens of generals have defected. They have an extensive knowledge of the SAA.


The interests behind this war are based on cold blooded calculus and really are only vaguely associated with morality. No amount of very successful IW can really change this fact.

This is not to say Assad holds any moral ground whatsoever. No one does in this war.

I agree with you that interests come first, but as you can see Obama, sided by the other western leaders, is attached to a moral stance of not providing weapons. On the other hand, the US provided hundreds of millions of USD to humanitarian causes.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:28 PM
And you can back up your claims about weapon transfers and C&C with apparently very "simple" facts, no?

I can't back up shiz! all my mumbling is purely a product of my fantasy :) but I clearly see concepts of operational warfare guiding indigenous forces applied in this conflict. Did Sunni Muslims discover all this on the go? Do they have sensors and sats for tracking enemy movement? Maybe. Maybe in some parallel universe most rebel supporters seem to live in. No offense

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:31 PM
LuLz! morals and ethics are now rated like stock?

The United States provides satellite intelligence and targeting data and that in itself is more effective for the FSA than would be weapons. It hardly matters anyhow, it is not like the world isn't already the Gulfs arms bazaar.

The FSA has ears and eyes everywhere in Syria. They could attempt to the highest officials lives inside their meeting rooms. I doubt they need sat pictures to know what are Assad's tactical moves.


The GCC has the weapons pipeline up already and you know damned well the Turks aren't going to let French and US intelligence agencies openly use their border as a logistics base for the FSA - I would have a hard time even believing that would be legal under NATO's charter but I digress once again.

This is the mistake.


I believe but can not prove that the American camp set up in Jordan tries to coordinate that intelligence with FSA actions - Why else would the FSA spend so much time ****ing around with Air Defense units? I find it hard to believe the FSA willing dies taking and attacking these positions for their non-existent FSA air force.

You know very well that these antiquated AD units could not challenge NATO.

Steak-Sauce
02-09-2013, 05:32 PM
No offense either, but you do know that quite a few of the rebels are defected soldiers? I.e. more or less trained men who are expected to know one or two things about warfare? Soldiers who may have even served in the regular army units they are now fighting against? Soldiers who may have lived and worked in the barracks they are now shelling?

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:32 PM
Again folks you don't necessarily need all the fancy tactical toys to win wars. You just need integrated command that knows wtf it is doing with all the surveillance and reconnaissance that comes with it. This is well out of reach of FSA or Nusra or whatever

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:34 PM
No I don' think so. The Syrian Muslim brotherhood and salafis were and are always there behind the scenes whether you see them in the camera or not. Look at Tunisia, Libya, Egypt how Islamists gained a foothold even though the press was showing students, ordinary people striving for more rights and democracy...which now seems like total BS . I don't buy what is now being said "Islamist hijacked the Arab Spring". There were elections and they voted for Islamists which means that Arab leaders are as good as the people that put them in power. Bottom line i don't want to see the "West" giving any kind of support to al qaeda proxies and like minded that will turn the country to a "middle east version of Pakistan".

Not a fan of Obama but he took a right decision on this even though i do not know/read the exact reasons.

There were Islamists in Syria too. But it turned to a civil war when soldiers and officers started to defect the SAA. These people were not Islamists. These are the people that should have been backed IMO.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:35 PM
No offense either, but you do know that quite a few of the rebels are defected soldiers? I.e. more or less trained men who are expected to know one or two things about warfare?

Yes funny thing about that is they show total ineptitude on SAA side and then magically become masters of operational warfare? I have seen some sources that mention how bakers that have been fighting with FSA are sometimes more capable of command and action than the supposedly knowledgeable defectors .

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:35 PM
There were Islamists in Syria too. But it turned to a civil war when soldiers and officers started to defect the SAA. These people were not Islamists. These are the people that should have been backed IMO.

They should have. Maybe they are the only ones with any moral authority in this. Unfortunately the use of Islamist tactical talent put a dent in it

Steak-Sauce
02-09-2013, 05:36 PM
I assume that these sources you're talking about are the same that mention how "they" provide weapons, communications and material to the rebels.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:37 PM
I assume that these sources you're talking about are the same that mention how "they" provide weapons, communications and material to the rebels.

That was NYT article. I find it again I will share. Now some of them could be good but they would still lack all the tools and systems to make their C2 effective and encompassing

Laker1
02-09-2013, 05:39 PM
They should have. Maybe they are the only ones with any moral authority in this. Unfortunately the use of Islamist tactical talent put a dent in it

After they will oust Assad,the "rebels" will fight between themselves(Jihadists against the secularists).

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:40 PM
After they will oust Assad,the "rebels" will fight between themselves(Jihadists against the secularists).

Seems like it. Israelis could be right. Maybe this is a gift for them. Get rid of Assad Hezz Iran axis and then exploit internal jihadist rivalries to eliminate or subdue that threat as well. This could work if Jordan and Egypt hold steady and those Islamist rivalries are contained within Syria. Such development certainly has potential

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:43 PM
They should have. Maybe they are the only ones with any moral authority in this.

IMO, yes. And those who follow this thread from the start know this is what I was advocating and they may remember I warned more than once that if we do not back these guys, the Islamists - backed by the Islamic states - will become the powerful component of the opposition.


Unfortunately the use of Islamist tactical talent put a dent in it

It was pre-visible.
The irony is that Assad, who backed so many fanatic Islamists, is now tasting his own bitter medicine.

Al-Bundy
02-09-2013, 05:44 PM
There were Islamists in Syria too. But it turned to a civil war when soldiers and officers started to defect the SAA. These people were not Islamists. These are the people that should have been backed IMO.

Did you even read my post? In Tunisia, Egypt , Libya the people in the cameras during the "Arab Spring" were also not Islamist but look now who is in charge. From the first videos of FSA , you could see the eerie resemblance with other videos coming form other jihadi fronts.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:45 PM
It was pre-visible.
The irony is that Assad, who backed so many fanatic Islamists, is now tasting his own bitter medicine.

Yes this is full of irony.

Steak-Sauce
02-09-2013, 05:48 PM
[...] but they would still lack all the tools and systems to make their C2 effective and encompassing

How do you know, for crying out loud. You don't know anything about their capabilities and assume things. Apparently that is the preferred way of thinking in your parallel universe, eh?

CaptMorgan, is that you? Thought you've choked on that hat after the J-20 disaster.

Arbody
02-09-2013, 05:48 PM
The irony is that Assad, who backed so many fanatic Islamists, is now tasting his own bitter medicine.
Next in the line will be "West" with support for terrorism.

Al-Bundy
02-09-2013, 05:51 PM
The irony is that Assad, who backed so many fanatic Islamists, is now tasting his own bitter medicine.

He had his reasons for doing that and not because of love for salafis. IMO he was sending his "local headaches" Syrian wahabis to get killed elsewhere instead of causing trouble at home. Also by supporting such groups he was getting some kind of legitimacy in the eyes of the other Arab countries who disliked him for being a shia in charge of a majority sunni country. He bought his time for as long as he could with this groups.

Camera
02-09-2013, 05:51 PM
Did you even read my post? In Tunisia, Egypt , Libya the people in the cameras during the "Arab Spring" were also not Islamist but look now who is in charge.

Well, the Islamists are in charge in Tunisia and Egypt, but it turns difficult to be for them to manage a state and their days in power may be counted.


From the first videos of FSA , you could see the eerie resemblance with other videos coming form other jihadi fronts.

I think the defectors that formed the FSA did not use vids on YouTube, because they were unfamiliar with this way of communications. The first vids appeared later, when Islamists started to operate in Syria and they started to communicate the same way they have done elsewhere.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:52 PM
How do you know, for crying out loud. You don't know anything about their capabilities and assume things. Apparently that is the preferred way of thinking in your parallel universe, eh?


I will stick with my assumptions and parallel universe. You can simply ignore me

Laker1
02-09-2013, 05:53 PM
Seems like it. Israelis could be right. Maybe this is a gift for them. Get rid of Assad Hezz Iran axis and then exploit internal jihadist rivalries to eliminate or subdue that threat as well. This could work if Jordan and Egypt hold steady and those rivalries are contained within Syria. Such development certainly has potential

What do you mean that those rivalries are conatined within Syria?..anyway,the Israeli Minister of Defense gave Assad two weeks to remain in power in the begging of the war..it seems that he can be for years in power as long as the West doesn't get involved militarily.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 05:55 PM
anyway,the Israeli Minister of Defense gave Assad two weeks to remain in power in the begging of the war..it seems that he can be for years in power as long as the West doesn't get involved militarily.

Assad still being alive has to do with matching proxy moves. Keeping him alive is a matter of prestige for some

In any case the hogwash in this conflict is strong on both sides to be fair. Everyone wants to stay 'white and furry'

bionic
02-09-2013, 05:59 PM
How do you know, for crying out loud. You don't know anything about their capabilities and assume things. Apparently that is the preferred way of thinking in your parallel universe, eh?

CaptMorgan, is that you? Thought you've choked on that hat after the J-20 disaster.
Sure it is CaptMorgan i noticed this after the first 20 posts he did.:lol:

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 06:00 PM
Sure it is CaptMorgan i noticed this after the first 20 posts he did.:lol:

You are just obsessed with ghosts and catching them. I guess when arguments run out you just label someone as an MP.net legend or myth rather

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 06:03 PM
What do you mean that those rivalries are conatined within Syria?..

Well like you said - Assad goes then FSA and Islamists duke it out. As long as that is contained to Syrian borders it should not be much of an issue

Laker1
02-09-2013, 06:13 PM
Assad still being alive has to do with matching proxy moves. Keeping him alive is a matter of prestige for some

In any case the hogwash in this conflict is strong on both sides to be fair. Everyone wants to stay 'white and furry'

Matching moves? It seems that no side can beat the other side..

Camera
02-09-2013, 06:22 PM
Lebanese army accuses Israel of 17-hour overflightsReport that Israel sent ‘spy’ drones to South Lebanon twice follows repeated claims about IAF jets conducting mock sorties
By TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF (http://www.timesofisrael.com/writers/times-of-israel-staff/) February 9, 2013, 2:32 pm

http://www.timesofisrael.com/lebanese-army-accuses-israel-of-17-hour-overflights/

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 06:24 PM
I assume that these sources you're talking about are the same that mention how "they" provide weapons, communications and material to the rebels.

Btw


The CIA has been working with the Syrian opposition for several weeks under a non-lethal directive that allows the United States to evaluate groups and assist them with command and control. Scores of Israeli intelligence officers are also operating along Syria’s border, though they are keeping a low profile.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-ignatius-syria-approaches-the-tipping-point/2012/07/18/gJQAFoCvtW_story.html



According to recent reports, the Al Qaeda-connected al-Nusra militia has fielded as many as 10,000 fighters, many of them foreign Islamists who have been funneled into Syria. The group is said to be the best-armed element waging the war for regime change and is credited with recently overrunning two Syrian military bases.Much of the weaponry going to the group has reportedly been sent in by the US-backed monarchy in Qatar. The CIA set up a command-and-control headquarters in southern Turkey earlier this year to coordinate the distribution of these arms and other aid going to the “rebels.”


http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-tightens-military-noose-around-syria/5314614?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=us-tightens-military-noose-around-syria

Laker1
02-09-2013, 06:25 PM
Lebanese army accuses Israel of 17-hour overflights

Report that Israel sent ‘spy’ drones to South Lebanon twice follows repeated claims about IAF jets conducting mock sorties


By TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF (http://www.timesofisrael.com/writers/times-of-israel-staff/) February 9, 2013, 2:32 pm

http://www.timesofisrael.com/lebanese-army-accuses-israel-of-17-hour-overflights/

With the weapons that Hezbollah gets,it must be 24/7 overflights.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 06:26 PM
Lebanese army accuses Israel of 17-hour overflights

Report that Israel sent ‘spy’ drones to South Lebanon twice follows repeated claims about IAF jets conducting mock sorties


By TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF (http://www.timesofisrael.com/writers/times-of-israel-staff/) February 9, 2013, 2:32 pm

http://www.timesofisrael.com/lebanese-army-accuses-israel-of-17-hour-overflights/

So more strikes in the pipeline I guess

Camera
02-09-2013, 06:30 PM
Btw



http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-ignatius-syria-approaches-the-tipping-point/2012/07/18/gJQAFoCvtW_story.html

It's about the CW.

Camera
02-09-2013, 06:31 PM
So more strikes in the pipeline I guess

Apparently yes, if there are new attempts to transfer weaponry to Lebanon.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 06:38 PM
It's about the CW.

Guys we are all adults here. Many of you served. We can pretend not to see through the thick IW that this wr is accompanied with but some things should be clear. Most of rebel successes would not be possible without assistance given how split up, incompetent and uncoordinated they were just some months ago. IMO CW is just a convenient cover for training and c2 type coordination even if the threat is real. Given the covert nature of such an effort I would not expect press releases advertising such activity all over media. You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist or Clancy fan to understand these things are very much real and not just a product of imagination . The effective C2 can be felt and observed and its source is a hardly a conspiracy or a mystery. It is very real and specializes in just such an affair

Camera
02-09-2013, 06:47 PM
Guys we are all adults here. Many of you served. We can pretend not to see through the thick IW that this wr is accompanied with but some things should be clear. Most of rebel successes would not be possible without assistance given how split up and incompetent they were just some months ago. CW is a convenient cover for training and c2 type coordination even if the threat is real

On C2 I saw them using rudimentary means: satellite phones.
Now regarding satellite pictures, it's possible that they get assistance but the benefit of such intelligence is IMO very limited, because the rebels do not operate like a conventional army with aviation, mechanized divisions… They fight from street to street, from one district to the other. Their own intelligence, based on Humint sources who infiltrate the population, the SAA and the government's institutions should be largely sufficient.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 06:50 PM
On C2 I saw them using rudimentary means: satellite phones.
Now regarding satellite pictures, it's possible that they get assistance but the benefit of such intelligence is IMO very limited, because the rebels do not operate like a conventional army with aviation, mechanized divisions… They fight from street to street, from one district to the other. Their own intelligence, based on Humint sources who infiltrate the population, the SAA and the government's institutions are largely sufficient.

Role of c2 is not to provide intel. It is to process intel, issue commands and exercise control. The intel rebels gather needs to be correlated and filtered as well. Hardly any worthy analysts among FSA capable of such a thing. However humint is just a small part of it. SIGINT and MASINT are capable of much more. With properly placed sensors you can track not only possible CW use but military movement as well. Not to mention satellites and other means of surveillance

Satellite phones is all you need to receive simple objectives and target designations. The rest is up to maneuvering tactical element on the ground.

Also you need real time feeds and processing to be able to react to changes in situation and enemy disposition in a timely fashion. Only way that is possible is way out of scope of rebel capability

Camera
02-09-2013, 06:51 PM
Role of c2 is not to provide intel. It is to process intel and give commands and exercise vcontrol. The intel rebels gather needs to be correlated and filtered as well. Hardly any worthy analysts among FSA capable of such a thing. However humint is just a small part of it. SIGINT and MASINT are capable of much more. With properly placed sensors you can track not only CW us but military movement as well


I did not say the contrary. All I saw in C2 are sat phones that are used for communications.



You edited you post, so I edit mine.
These guys have probably eyes and ears everywhere. They proved to be able to infiltrate the highest echelons of the SAA. IMO they are acknowledged of major moves days before they occur and before any sensor can track.

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 07:02 PM
I did not say the contrary. All I saw in C2 are sat phones that are used for communications.

You edited you post, so I edit mine.
These guys have probably eyes and ears everywhere. They proved to be able to infiltrate the highest echelons of the SAA. IMO they are acknowledged of major moves days before they occur and before any sensor can track.

Yes true but still the rate of successes indicates application of shock assault action targeting lines of support and communication all along the full depth of SAA defense thus overwhelming command and control, paralyzing initiative and affecting troops morale. Maybe Allah is on FSA side but I gather there is a lot more to it

Camera
02-09-2013, 07:18 PM
Yes true but still the rate of successes indicates application of shock assault action targeting lines of support and communication all along the full depth of SAA defense thus overwhelming command and control, paralyzing initiative and affecting troops morale. Maybe Allah is on FSA side but I gather there is a lot more to it

They know the SAA very well from having served in it for decades; they still have friends and accomplices inside the army who inform them; they have spotters outside the major camps of the SAA, on the roads and on the zones of troops concentration, as we have seen in many vids, the population spots for them.
I can not dismiss the assumption they are assisted from the outside; they probably are. But what such assistance could fundamentally change for this rebel army that has such poor mobility and is limited to localized operations?

AgentKoba37
02-09-2013, 07:27 PM
They know the SAA very well from having served in it for decades; they still have friends and accomplices inside the army who inform them; they have spotters outside the major camps of the SAA, on the roads and on the zones of troops concentration, as we have seen in many vids, the population spots for them.
I can not dismiss the assumption they are assisted from the outside; they probably are. But what such assistance could fundamentally change for this rebel army that has such poor mobility and is limited to localized operations?

True. I guess they sure have a role in intel gathering where sensor coverage may prove insufficient.

If anything IMO the rebels are an equivalent of highly mobile light infantry in this conflict. Their advantages are in numbers, mobility and ability to overwhelm defenses through concentrated effort and multiple simultaneous assaults sneaking deep into SAA territory. Coordination is key

gresh
02-09-2013, 07:38 PM
True. I guess they sure have a role in intel gathering where sensor coverage may prove insufficient.

If anything IMO the rebels are an equivalent of highly mobile light infantry in this conflict. Their advantages are in numbers, mobility and ability to overwhelm defenses through concentrated effort and multiple simultaneous assaults sneaking deep into SAA territory. Coordination is key
One thing to consider is that the rebels can use their "non-lethal" funds for buying up to date imagery from companies like Digital Globe. I really don't think that actual governments are providing them military-grade imagery when they can just have civilian companies do it for them. I know that some groups of Syrian expat's raise money for that kind of stuff to help their operations.

Also, like Camera said, they have spotters everywhere. Sometimes they post footage of them spying on a base months before they attack it. Just look at Taftanaz.