Vietnam POW's Featured in New Kerry Ad

[BlackRain]

Vietnam POW's Featured in New Kerry Ad

Link to Video of Ad: http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_video2.html

Features:

Ken Cordier (http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/c/c094.htm) - POW December 1966 to March 1973

Paul Galanti - (http://www.nampows.org/pgbio.html) POW January 1966 to February 1973

[BlackRain]

REVENGE IS 'SWIFT'

August 21, 2004 -- Vietnam veterans opposing John Kerry are launching a tough new TV ad that uses Kerry's own antiwar testimony to portray him as a man who "dishonored his country" and "sold out" fellow soldiers by painting them as war criminals.

The new ad was unveiled as Kerry — clearly worried about the impact of the ads by a group known as Swift Boat Veterans for Truth — tried to knock them off the air by filing a complaint with the Federal Election Commission.

The anti-Kerry commercial starts with video of Kerry testifying to the U.S. Senate in 1971 that he knew U.S. troops who "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads" and switches to POWs who say Kerry's words were "devastating" for them.

"John Kerry gave the enemy for free what I, and many of my comrades in North Vietnam, in the prison camps, took torture to avoid saying. It demoralized us," says former Vietnam POW Paul Galanti, a highly decorated Navy combat pilot.

Galanti flew 97 combat missions over Vietnam before being shot down and held at the notorious Hanoi Hilton for seven years — including while Kerry testified.

Kerry highlights his four months of Vietnam duty — and rescue of overboard soldier Jim Rassman — as the heart of his campaign but rarely mentions his subsequent role as an outspoken anti-Vietnam war activist.

The new ad, "Sellout," was unveiled the day after Kerry lashed out at the Swift vets' first TV spot, which portrays the would-be commander in chief as a liar who inflated his war record.



In a stunning development, the first Swift vets ad has become a hot issue in the 2004 race even though it ran in just a few markets — 57 percent of Americans have seen or heard about it, according to a new poll yesterday.

The nonpartisan Annenberg Center found that among "persuadable voters" — those likely to decide the election — 46 percent of those who saw the ad say it was "believable" while 39 percent said it was unbelievable.

Kerry's FEC complaint charges the Swift vets, an officially independent "527" group, illegally coordinated their ad with the Bush campaign — which both Bush and the Swift vets deny.

The 527s are barred from any contact with campaigns. Most 527s are anti-Bush and have run over $50 million in TV ads attacking Bush — nearly 100 times as much as the Swift Vets, who say they've spent just $550,000 so far.

Bush spokesman Steve Schmidt dismissed the complaint as "frivolous" and shot back that there is a "revolving door of personnel, coordinated strategies and overlapping fundraising" between groups like MoveOn and Team Kerry.

[Hot Lips]

This was on CNN.com :


Selected comments
The latest ad selects quotes from Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971. In the ad, Kerry says, "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads," "randomly shot at civilians," and "razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn."

The ad does not include Kerry's preface, in which he said he is reporting what others said at a Vietnam veterans conference. Instead, a swift boat group member refers to the statements as "accusations" Kerry made against Vietnam veterans.

An official transcript shows Kerry was referring to a meeting in Detroit, Michigan, that was part of what was called the Winter Soldier investigation. He told the Senate committee that veterans had testified to war crimes and relived the "absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do."

Kerry has said he regrets some of the comments but stands by his protests.


In other words - the quote they used in the commercial was him repeating documented testimony of other verterans at that conferrence and not his own words. I'm sure he has used is own words in the past - but they should have used one of those quotes instead of misrepresenting what was said here. If they hadn't it would show that he isn't the only one saying these things. That others support these claims as being truthful.

I'm not up to speed on all this....
Is there a quote in which Kerry claims all soldiers behaved this way? Does he differentiate between those that did and those that didn't? Are the SBV's saying that our guys never did anything wrong while over there? I suppose a link to his actual testimony would be useful.

[Luchtmobiel]

I don't see how his military past affects his current political stance.

[Luchtmobiel]

Now this is more interesting:

http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/images/kerry-priceless.jpg

or this:

http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/images/militaryservice_gra.jpg

[Hot Lips]

Did he say he's against gun ownership or that he supports stiffer gun control?

As for the war toon. I thought he was surprised that folks stories flip flopped from official documents of the time. Has he whined about people discussing his military service -- or that they contradicted documents signed or statements made at the time?

[budanski]

SEALs & Swift boats
Froggy Ruminations (http://froggyruminations.blogspot.com/2004/08/seals-swift-boats.html)

Name:Matthew Heidt

Location:Valencia, California, United States

Navy SEAL corpsman for 10 years active duty and 4 years Reserve. BUD/S Class 184 (91-92). SEAL Team FOUR (93-96) & SEAL Team ONE (97-2000). Criminal Investigator for U.S. Customs Service (now Homeland Security ICE) for 2 years. Currently a real estate developer.

============================

Apparently, the latest version of Kerry's Cambodia Chronicles includes the insertion of Navy SEALs by Swift boat into Cambodia in the early part of 1969. Well, I am a former Navy SEAL that served in the 1990s, my father in law is a former SEAL and he served in the Mekong Delta in Vietnam in 1970. I spoke with him about the likelihood that this story could be correct. My contention was that Swift boats were too large to be routinely used as an insertion platform for SEALs.

SEALs typically used the Medium SEAL Support Craft (MSSC) or the LSSC. My dad's platoon, had one of each assigned. These boats were designed by SEALs and specially built for the Teams to use on clandestine riverine insertions at night of usually no more than 8 operators. Swift boats operated in groups as independent entities, and not as insertion/extraction platforms for small units.

Jim Rassman's ODA was probably on there because SF A teams don't have organic boat assets and were using the Swifties because they had no other means of getting where they needed to go. Also, it is my understanding that the engagement with Kerry getting the Bronze Star took place during the day, which leads me to believe the insertion mission was either a large infantry force led by the SF guys, or a civic action type mission for which SF is well known.

Waterborne infiltrations done illegally into a "neutral" country if performed would be done by small groups of operators (less than 8), at night, in a small tributary, by a boat with a very shallow draft and jacuzzi, not propeller drive. To do otherwise, would be ridiculous.

SEALs also did not trust anyone outside of their immediate peer group. They developed their own intel by snatching high ranking VC out of their beds in the middle of the night. They did not share this info outside the platoon, boat guys, and Seawolves helo crews (close fire support assets). They learned early on that passing intel up the chain was a sure way to be compromised on future operations.

In order to get permission to conduct an illegal incursion into Cambodia by Swift boat the following must occur: 1. Extremely fresh intel of a high value target (think U.S. POW, or VC chieftain). 2. Take that intel outside the group and up to intel at a higher level (risking compromise) in order to obtain boat support from the Swifties to go into Cambodia. That is extremely unlikely to the point of absurdity.

Furthermore, neither myself or my father in law knows anyone who was inserted anywhere by a Swift boat during Vietnam. It just wasn't done. It wasn't something SEALs wanted, and it wasn't something Swifties did.

Bottom Line......Kerry is a liar.

[Huck Mucus]

If it were not for the anti-war movement and people like Kerry who forced and end to the war, it's entirely possible that the POWs would STILL be rotting in some ****hole in Hanoi or elsewhere, if they were even alive. Plus, their numbers would have increased, along with all the dead on both sides. We could still be there to this day. No, Kerry did not turn on his people, he backed them, and others who never had to go, to the f****** hilt.

People blame the politicians for not winning the war. However, the only thing that would or could have ended that war, militarily, was a nuke or two, if that. To say otherwise is to not give the enemy his due. Any man who fought over there that I ever met had all the respect in the world for the NVA and the VC. By ANY Machiavellian and real politik analysis, they won. Get used to it.

Oh, and here is yet another man who was actually present for Kerry's Silver Star action. Read it and weap:

Anti-Kerry Vets Not There that Day
By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune

Saturday 21 August 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago—three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us—the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service—even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats—including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43—that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

Instructions from Kerry
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

The first time we took fire—the usual rockets and automatic weapons—Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch—a thatched hut—maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Congratulatory message
Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

Error in citation
My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long ago—not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.

[Huck Mucus]

Bottom Line......Kerry is a liar.


As to this "SEAL", it's more wild-eyed speculation from some one who was not there. One guy speaking from his limited little sphere of experience cannot even come close to pretending that he has a monoply on understanding how all operations were conducted by others. Bottom line, anyone who says they can is a liar. I personally did, along with my team, many things that other recon types have no clue about. Likewise, I am sure many other recon types did stuff that I don't know about. This guy is speaking from HIS personal experience but I hope the "liar" comment was YOUR rhetoric, not his. Who ever said it has their head up their ass.

I just had to add, this analysis does not even consider all the wierd supply, maintenance and repair issues that go on in war, or the idea that maybe the swift boats ferried the teams to a point where they took off on their own boats later, etc. Jeesh, our protocals called for use of "X" but that does not mean we NEVER used "Y" under and conditions. To call a man a liar on such a point, especially based upon limited personal experience, is just more crap and it impugns the integrity of the man who said it and every thing else he said.

[Poontang_Dan]

Bottom Line......Kerry is a liar.


As to this "SEAL", it's more wild-eyed speculation from some one who was not there. One guy speaking from his limited little sphere of experience cannot even come close to pretending that he has a monoply on understanding how all operations were conducted by others. Bottom line, anyone who says they can is a liar. I personally did, along with my team, many things that other recon types have no clue about. Likewise, I am sure many other recon types did stuff that I don't know about. This guy is speaking from HIS personal experience but I hope the "liar" comment was YOUR rhetoric, not his. Who ever said it has their head up their ass.

I just had to add, this analysis does not even consider all the wierd supply, maintenance and repair issues that go on in war, or the idea that maybe the swift boats ferried the teams to a point where they took off on their own boats later, etc. Jeesh, our protocals called for use of "X" but that does not mean we NEVER used "Y" under and conditions. To call a man a liar on such a point, especially based upon limited personal experience, is just more crap and it impugns the integrity of the man who said it and every thing else he said.

Right on. Right with ya Huck.

[Huck Mucus]

I'm not up to speed on all this....
Is there a quote in which Kerry claims all soldiers behaved this way?

No, there is not.

On the other hand, you don't see one single Swift Boat Veteran for Truth or any anti-Kerry vet saying that Kerry's allegations never occured in Vietnam. They can't, because every swinging dick in-country knows that **** happened now and again, here and there, in every war that's ever been fought. Some, not all, engaged in this activity. Kerry never said they all did. He said some did and he based his assertions on what he saw and did and on what his fellow Vietnam Veterans Against the War told him they saw and did.

[American Patriot]

This Kerry guy has a lot of skeletons in his closet. The Dem-dominated media should have stayed with Dean.

[BlackRain]

How Do POW's and Their Family's Feel about John Kerry's Anti-War Activities?

http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/betrayed/betrayed.htm


Comments about John Kerry by Other Vietnam POW's.



http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/formerpows/formerpows.htm


Are all these folks liars too? Are all these folks connected to George Bush as well?

This is what happens when you betray your brothers during war time -- they never forget.



POW/MIA FAMILIES AGAINST JOHN KERRY

Ann Holland, wife T/Sgt. Melvin Holland USAF Laos March 11, 1968

Mary Milliner, mother CWO William Milliner USA Laos March 6, 1971

Virgie James, Mother Capt. Samuel Larry James USAF Cambodia 4-18-73

Cindi Atwood, sister SP/5 Michael F May USA 5th SF March 02 1969 Cambodia

Joseph Milliner, father CWO William Milliner USA Laos March 6, 1971

Connie Mangino, wife SP/4 Thomas Mangino USA So. Vietnam April 21, 1967

Barbara White, sister, Samuel Larry James USAF Cambodia 4-18-73

Jeanie Hasenbeck, sister PFC Paul Hasenbeck USA So. Vietnam April 21, 1967

Bob White, brother in law, Samuel Larry James USAF Cambodia 4-18-73

Doris Maitland, sister A.F.Smsgt. Andre R. Guillet USAF Laos May 18, 1966

Mrs. Mary Matejov, Mother Sgt Joseph Matejov USAF Laos, 5 Feb 1973

John Matejov, brother of Sgt Joseph Matejov USAF Shot down 5 Feb 1973

Nora Diane Moore, daughter CMS Thomas Moore, USAF So. Vietnam Oct. 31 1965

William Matthes, Brother Peter Matthes USAF Laos Nov. 24, 1969

Gwen Hall Davis, sister Capt. Harley H. Hall USN So. Vietnam 27 Jan. 1973

Nell (Miller) Smith, mother Maj. Curtis Daniel Miller Laos March 29, 1972

Kathryn Fanning, wife Major Hugh M.Fanning, USMC North VietNam Oct. 31, 1967

Donald Smith, step father Maj. Curtis Daniel Miller Laos March 29, 1972

Jon J Andren, brother PFC David M. Winters USA So. Vietnam April 21, 1967

Dolores Apodaca Alfond, sister Major Victor J. Apodaca USAF No. Vietnam June 8, 1967

Debra Milliner Marinis, sister CWO William Milliner USA Laos March 6, 1971

Darren Marinis, brother-in-law CWO William Milliner USA Laos March 6, 1971

Christine LaFrate, cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Robert McDonald Uncle L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Evelyn McDonald, Aunt L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Gregory LaFrate Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Mike McDonald Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Robert Destevens second Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Tammy Destevens second Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

John McDonald Second Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Beverely Mills Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966 Patricia

McDonald Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Peter J. LaFrate second Cousin L/CPL Gregory Harris, USMC So. Vietnam June 12, 1966

Joyce Apodaca, sister Major Victor J. Apodaca USAF No. Vietnam June 8, 1967

Jim Borah, brother Lt. Daniel V. Borah USN So. Vietnam Sept. 24, 1972

Ronnie Milliner, brother CWO William Milliner USA Laos March 6, 1971

Susan Milliner, sister-in-law CWO William Milliner USA Laos March 6, 1971

Lillian Beauvilliers, sister SMS Andre R. Guillet, Laos May 18,1966

Kevin Sean Rogers, son Maj Charles E. Rogers USAF Laos May 4, 1967

Mrs.Jennie B. Fors, Mother Lt. Col. Gary H.Fors USMC Laos, Dec. 22, 1967

Mr.James M. Jacka, Stepfather Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors VFMA 122 Laos, Dec. 22, 1967

Timothy May, brother SP/5 Michael F. May USA 5th SF Cambodia March 02 1969

Doris Kennard, Mother SP/5 Michael F. May USA 5th SF Cambodia March 02 1969

Burton Kennard, Father SP/5 Michael F May USA 5th SF Cambodia March 02 1969

James M. Macdonald, brother CPT. George D. Macdonald USAF Laos Dec. 21, 1972

Jim Atwood, brother in law SP/5 Michael F. May USA 5th SF Cambodia March 02 1969

Karen Kirkpatrick, Cousin Maj. Donald Gene "Butch" Carr, USA/SF Laos July 6, 1971

Robert Briggs, brother Lt. Ronald D. Briggs USA So. Vietnam Feb. 6, 1969

Dave Bush, son Sgt. Elbert W. Bush, USA So. Vietnam Jan. 8, 1973

Julie Y. Bunn, Sister Lt. Daniel V. Borah, Jr. USN So. Vietnam Sept. 21, 1972

SGT Donna E Elliott, USA (Ret), sister SSGT Jerry W Elliott USA So. Vietnam Jan. 21, 1968

Janella Rose, sister Capt. Victor Apodaca, USAF No. Vietnam June 8, 1968

David N.Fors, Brother Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors USMC Laos, Dec 22,1967

Gary H. Fors, Nephew Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors VFMA 122 Laos, Dec 22,1967

Guy D. Fors, Nephew Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors USMC Laos, Dec,22 1967

Susan R. McMahon, Sister Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors VFMA 122 Laos, Dec 22, 1967

Mike McMahon, Brother-in-Law Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors USMC Laos, Dec 22, 1967

Steve E. Fors, Brother Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors VFMA 122 Laos, Dec 22, 1967

Patrick R. Jacka, Brother-in-Law Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors USMC Laos, Dec 22, 1967

Mary Kay Fors, Cousin Lt. Col. Gary H. Fors VFMA 122 Laos, Dec 22, 1967

Kate (Matejov) Rothacker, sister Sgt. Joseph Matejov USAF Laos Feb. 5, 1973

Sherrill Standerwick Long daughter Col. Robert L. Standerwick USAF Laos Feb. 3, 1971

Carol Hrdlicka, wife Col. David Hrdlicka USAF Laos May 18, 1965

Pam Cain, daughter Col. Oscar Mauterer USAF Laos Feb. 15, 1966

Stephen Matejov, brother Sgt. Joseph Matejov USAF Laos Feb. 5, 1973

Amanda Krause, niece Sgt. Joseph Matejov USAF Laos, Feb. 5, 1973

Al Rothacker, brother-in-law Sgt. Joseph Matejov USAF Laos, Feb. 5, 1973

Julie White Sfakianos, niece Capt. Samuel Larry James USAF Cambodia, April 18, 1973

Regina Talley, Sister Floyd G Talley, USA Medic MIA now KIA So. Vietnam

Mary Ellen Alford, Sister Floyd G Talley, USA Medic MIA now KIA So. Vietnam

Lynn Standerwick Lidie, daughter Col. Robert L. Standerwick USAF Laos Feb. 3, 1971

Lenore Speer, sister-in-law T/Sgt. Melvin A. Holland USAF Laos March 11, 1968

Theresa (Matejov) Freeze, sister Sgt. Joseph Matejov USAF Laos Feb. 5, 1973

Lori White, niece Capt. Samuel Larry James USAF Cambodia April 18, 1973

Debra Morris, niece Msgt. James H. Calfee, USAF Laos March 11, 1968

Eleanor Apodaca, Sister Major Victor Joe Apodaca, USAF North Vietnam 08 June 1967

Mary Ann Scungio, sister Maj. Vincent A. Scungio, USAF No. Vietnam Nov. 4, 1966

Anne (Matejov) Menaldo, sister Sgt. Joseph Matejov USAF Laos, Feb. 5, 1973

Jorge E. Menaldo, nephew Sgt. Joseph Matejov, USAF Laos, Feb. 5, 1973

Carol Battey Bushart, Sister-in-law Col. E. Lawrence Perrine N. Vietnam, May 22, 1967

Chris Rich, Son Capt Richard Rich, USN MIA May 19 1967 - Nov 7, 2000

[Huck Mucus]

Nobody said they were liars. You hit the nail on the head when you said how they "feel" about Kerry's anti-war activities. "Feel" is opinion, not necessarily fact-based, and these people are hardly objective. If you "feel" like understanding how they "feel," then run a search for how I described the phychology of those who make such a huge investment in a lost cause. It's human nature to want to keep throwing more on one more roll of the dice. Kerry is the exception, not the rule.

The argument can just as easily be made that these people would still be in prison in Vietnam, dead, or joined by you and me, in prison, or dead, in a war that is was still going on, if not for the anti-war movement and the that eventually stopped it. Kerry covered their six and stood by them and worked for them after he got out. He didn't stab them in the back or turn on them. They just can't come to grips with what a catastrophic waste it was for them to have been over there in the first place. They wanted to "win" the war and blame people like Kerry for losing it for them. However, they are wrong. Kerry and people like him didn't lose the war. The Vietnamese won it. Get used to it.

By the way, none of that has anything to de with Kerry's service IN Vietnam. It has everything to do with why the misguided liars in the Not So Swift Veterans group is attacking him. They too made the investment and lost. They can't get over it so they blame the wrong man and movement instead of going after the military industrial complex that spent them and their lives like so many used dollar bills, hiding under the name of "freedom" and "anti-commie" rhetoric.

[XASA]

The POW families certainly have a right to support anyone they wish to support. But what does that have to do with the Swift Boat Veterans well-documented lies? Were they there? Or have the political affiliation and personal bias got in the way of the truth like Cordier, the POW you were so quick to hail in this thread as being against Kerry. Turns out he's was a Bush campaign advisor.

Don't let your personal bias against Kerry get in the way of the truth, even if you can't stand him you don't have to resort to lies to run against him. IMHO that is unpatriotic ;)

Bush Campaign Drops Swift Boat Ad Figure
Democrat's Team Says Veteran's Role in Drive to Discredit Kerry Shows a Link

By Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, August 22, 2004; Page A13

CRAWFORD, Tex., Aug. 21 -- The Bush campaign said late Saturday that it dismissed an adviser on veterans issues after learning that he is part of an independent group that has been running anti-Kerry ads.

The Bush campaign said Kenneth Cordier, who appears in a new advertisement to be aired by the anti-Kerry group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, will no longer serve in his voluntary position on Bush's veterans steering committee. A Bush spokesman said Cordier had not previously informed the campaign that he had been involved with the group, but the Kerry campaign said the matter provides evidence supporting its complaint to the Federal Election Commission alleging illegal cooperation between the campaign and the independent group.

"Col. Cordier did not inform the campaign of his involvement in the advertisement being run by a 527 organization," Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt wrote in a statement, referring to the technical name for independent groups such as the Swift boat organization. Schmidt said Cordier "will no longer participate as a volunteer for Bush-Cheney '04."

Cordier's connection to the Bush campaign was made public yesterday by the Kerry campaign, which found that Cordier had been named on the Bush Web site earlier this month as a member of the veterans committee but that his name had subsequently been removed. A Bush aide said Cordier, who spent six years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam and was a Bush supporter in 2000, called the campaign to disclose his involvement on Friday and was told he could no longer serve as an adviser to the campaign.

The ads by the Swift boat group, named for the type of boat Kerry commanded during the Vietnam War, has been causing a furious debate between the campaigns, with Kerry demanding that Bush condemn the ads that suggest that Kerry did not earn his war decorations and that he betrayed his fellow veterans by his later antiwar activity. The Bush campaign has said it opposes ads by all outside groups but declined to specifically criticize the Swift boat ads.

The Swift boat veterans ad featuring Cordier, to air this week in Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Nevada, shows footage of Kerry's antiwar testimony from 1971. "He betrayed us in the past -- how can we be loyal to him now?" Cordier said in the ad.

Cordier could not be reached at his home in Dallas last night.

Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said the Cordier matter added more weight to its complaint filed last week with the FEC. "This is another brick in the wall of evidence that the Bush campaign is behind this smear," he said. "No wonder the president won't condemn the ads."

Under law, political campaigns cannot coordinate with the 527 organizations, which are funded with unregulated "soft" money and have proved to be an enormous loophole in the new campaign-finance legislation. Bush aides have said there has been no coordination with the Swift boat group. "We've already said we weren't involved in any way in these ads," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said last week. "We've made that clear."

But the Kerry campaign said that claim is put in doubt both by the Cordier issue and by various news accounts demonstrating close relationships between the Swift boat veterans and key Bush advisers. The Kerry campaign also asserts that a Kerry campaign volunteer picked up a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth flier at the Bush-Cheney office in Gainesville, Fla.

.

[BlackRain]

Former Vietnam POW and Former Senator States Kerry's Anti War Comments Caused Him Harm in Prison:

Jeremiah Denton is a retired Navy admiral who served in the U.S. Senate from 1981 to 1987.
(http://www.al.com/opinion/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/opinion/107882739575630.xml)


Knowing that I served in the U.S. Senate with John Kerry and that, like him, I am a veteran of the Vietnam War, many people have asked me what I think of him, particularly now that he's the apparent presidential nominee of the Democratic Party.

When Kerry joined me in the Senate, I already knew about his record of defamatory remarks and behavior criticizing U.S. policy in Vietnam and the conduct of our military personnel there. I had learned in North Vietnamese prisons how much harm such statements caused.

To me, his remarks and behavior amounted to giving aid and comfort to our Vietnamese and Soviet enemies. So I was not surprised when his subsequent overall voting pattern in the Senate was consistently detrimental to our national security.

[BlackRain]

In 1971, John Kerry was accused by POW Families of Exploiting the POW issue to Springboard into Public Office:

http://img40.exs.cx/img40/3032/kerrynewsarticle.gif

Long history of this crap.

[Geezah]

Did he say he's against gun ownership or that he supports stiffer gun control?



The A-hole is for gun control pure and simple as are most Dems, the only reason he did that whole I'm a hunter photo op was so he could pull in some of the down home folks that are still unsure of which way to go.
Hell, he sin bed with Kennedy are Frankenstien who both do not belive the law abiding public should be allowed near guns!

He came back off his campaign trail to vote against the gun industry but he can't make it back to vote for anything else :cantbeli:

[Huck Mucus]

Some of this reminds me of the Stars and Bars, and fond, proud, Confederate memories. "We woulda won ifin it weren't for . . . " And "The South will rise again . . ."

It is indeed hard to make such a huge personal investment in a cause, only to lose. Perhaps our politicians should realize the fragile and valuable lives and emotions they hold in their hands when they consider sending men off to war to fight for questionable reasons under the banner of unquestionable rhetoric. The scars will last forever. Some politicians know this first hand. Others don't.

[Hot Lips]

Did he say he's against gun ownership or that he supports stiffer gun control?



The A-hole is for gun control pure and simple as are most Dems, the only reason he did that whole I'm a hunter photo op was so he could pull in some of the down home folks that are still unsure of which way to go.
Hell, he sin bed with Kennedy are Frankenstien who both do not belive the law abiding public should be allowed near guns!

He came back off his campaign trail to vote against the gun industry but he can't make it back to vote for anything else :cantbeli:

Really? I didn't know that he was flat out against the average joe owning ANY guns. I thought he spoke out against automatic weapons and the type of guns no one needs for simple sport nor protection.

I'm all for folks possessing reasonable weapons for sport or protection, but there are some weapons that just have no sensible reason to be in the hands of the average person.

[XASA]

News Flash for those of you who weren't in Vietnam or even alive when the war was being waged: America lost the war because of a flawed military strategy and political blunders by both Democrats and Republicans and not because Kerry decided to blow the whistle on the tactics being employed there.

The POWs were brave and honorable men who suffered during their captivity. Obviously, they feel that their suffering was for a good cause; otherwise, I'm sure, the pain would have been too much to bear. The anti-war movement in this country consisted of a majority of the populace, so if you are going to blame anyone for aiding and abetting the enemy you would have to blame more than half the country.

None of which changes the fact that the Swift Boat Veterans are liars and the insistence on the part of Republicans to continue with this smear campaign despite those lies speaks volumes for how low the Bush administration has gone in its efforts to stay in power.

[Deuterium]

News Flash for those of you who weren't in Vietnam or even alive when the war was being waged: America lost the war because of a flawed military strategy and political blunders by both Democrats and Republicans and not because Kerry decided to blow the whistle on the tactics being employed there.

The POWs were brave and honorable men who suffered during their captivity. Obviously, they feel that their suffering was for a good cause; otherwise, I'm sure, the pain would have been too much to bear. The anti-war movement in this country consisted of a majority of the populace, so if you are going to blame anyone for aiding and abetting the enemy you would have to blame more than half the country.

None of which changes the fact that the Swift Boat Veterans are liars and the insistence on the part of Republicans to continue with this smear campaign despite those lies speaks volumes for how low the Bush administration has gone in its efforts to stay in power.

I'm certainly not going to call them liars. I wasn't there, neither were you. Having received a few awards in my time in the military I could fill volumes on how screwed up the awards write up system is. The only thing I've seen that definitively proves someone is lying is Kerry's DOCUMENTED, REPEATED, and VOCAL claims of being in Cambodia at Christmas. This man is nothing but a grandstander IMO. He has used events in the past for personal gain and has played loose with facts. This is not a man who will get my vote.

[Secret Squirrel]

I'm certainly not going to call them liars. I wasn't there, neither were you.

And neither were the 254 members of swiftvets.com. Or is it just a strange coincidence that none of them served directly with Kerry? ;)

[He219]

I'm certainly not going to call them liars. I wasn't there, neither were you.

And neither were the 254 members of swiftvets.com. Or is it just a strange coincidence that none of them served directly with Kerry? ;)
Are you saying that Van Odell wasn't there either?

[XASA]

Rood was there and he has come out after 35 years of silence and said that the SBVT are liars.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22582&sid=b6effb41ba7960f537da5cd8362bb8de

Listen, I don't care which horse you back in this race. That's your hard earned right as an American to cast your vote for the candidate of your choice. My gripe is when voters base that choice not on facts but on lies, which is the sole purpose of a smear campaign. If you don't like Kerry's stand on Iraq, the economy or health care, then don't vote for him. But don't let propagandists piss in your face and make you believe it's rain ;)

[He219]

But don't let propagandists piss in your face and make you believe it's rain ;)
Quite so; after all - "Vietnam was Nixon's war"
:lol:
That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can evaluated as "true" or "false." It's true that the men named do exist, that they served in Vietnam, and that they made the statements attributed to them, but the substance of most of these quotes is an expression of opinion, not something objectively classifiable as right or wrong.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

[Hot Lips]

First I read that no one agreed with Kerry's recollection of events. Then is was only one guy that he happen to save. Then it was more guys, but they were JUST members of his boat crew (as if that means nothing). Now Rood comes out to say the same (which I'm sure will be dismissed one way or another. AND...

Kerry also picked up support from Wayne D. Langhofer, who told The Washington Post he was manning a machine gun in a boat behind Kerry’s and saw firing from both banks of a river as Kerry dived in to rescue Special Forces soldier James Rassmann, the basis for Kerry’s Bronze Star.

Until now, the Post noted on its Web site, Kerry’s version of acting under fire had come from crewmen on his own boat. It quoted Langhofer as saying he was approached by leaders of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth several months ago but declined to join them in speaking against Kerry.

[XASA]

But don't let propagandists piss in your face and make you believe it's rain ;)
Quite so; after all - "Vietnam was Nixon's war"
:lol:
That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can evaluated as "true" or "false." It's true that the men named do exist, that they served in Vietnam, and that they made the statements attributed to them, but the substance of most of these quotes is an expression of opinion, not something objectively classifiable as right or wrong.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

Well, it was Nixon's war at the time before then it was Eisenhower's...and Kennedy's...and Johnson's...and after Nixon, it became Ford's war ;) Like I said, enough blame to go around on who screwed the pooch :P

[BlackRain]

Rood was there and he has come out after 35 years of silence and said that the SBVT are liars.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22582&sid=b6effb41ba7960f537da5cd8362bb8de

Listen, I don't care which horse you back in this race. That's your hard earned right as an American to cast your vote for the candidate of your choice. My gripe is when voters base that choice not on facts but on lies, which is the sole purpose of a smear campaign. If you don't like Kerry's stand on Iraq, the economy or health care, then don't vote for him. But don't let propagandists piss in your face and make you believe it's rain ;)

Kerry's Version of the Events Contradicted in 1996 By Fellow Crew Member:

Unmentioned by Rood in his Chicago Tribine report is the account of Tom Bellodeau, who, unlike Rood, was actually aboard Kerry's boat when the VC in question leveled his grenade launcher at them.

"You know, I shot that guy," Bellodeau told the Boston Globe during a 1996 interview, correcting an earlier Globe report that echoed Kerry's claim that he alone had neutralized the enemy ambusher.

"He jumped up, he looked right at me, I looked at him," Bellodeau continued. "You could tell he was trying to decide whether to shoot or not. I expected the guy on Kerry's boat with the twin 50s to blast him, but he couldn't depress the guns far enough. We were up on the bank."

Only after the enemy soldier was wounded, said Bellodeau, did Kerry leap from the boat onto the beach and pursue him around the back of a nearby hut, where the would-be president finished him off.

Echoing ex-Commander Rood's version, Kerry's Silver Star citation credits him alone for taking down the Viet Cong soldier, making no mention whatsoever of Bellodeau, who has died in the intervening years.


"An enemy soldier sprang up from his position not 10 feet from Swift Boat 94 and fled," the combat award reads. "Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."


And even though Kerry spoke at Bellodeau's funeral, he has done nothing to incorporate his crewmate's role in subsequent accounts of the encounter with the enemy fighter.

[XASA]

Rood was there and he has come out after 35 years of silence and said that the SBVT are liars.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22582&sid=b6effb41ba7960f537da5cd8362bb8de

Listen, I don't care which horse you back in this race. That's your hard earned right as an American to cast your vote for the candidate of your choice. My gripe is when voters base that choice not on facts but on lies, which is the sole purpose of a smear campaign. If you don't like Kerry's stand on Iraq, the economy or health care, then don't vote for him. But don't let propagandists piss in your face and make you believe it's rain ;)

Kerry's Version of the Events Contradicted in 1996 By Fellow Crew Member:

Unmentioned by Rood in his Chicago Tribine report is the account of Tom Bellodeau, who, unlike Rood, was actually aboard Kerry's boat when the VC in question leveled his grenade launcher at them.

"You know, I shot that guy," Bellodeau told the Boston Globe during a 1996 interview, correcting an earlier Globe report that echoed Kerry's claim that he alone had neutralized the enemy ambusher.

"He jumped up, he looked right at me, I looked at him," Bellodeau continued. "You could tell he was trying to decide whether to shoot or not. I expected the guy on Kerry's boat with the twin 50s to blast him, but he couldn't depress the guns far enough. We were up on the bank."

Only after the enemy soldier was wounded, said Bellodeau, did Kerry leap from the boat onto the beach and pursue him around the back of a nearby hut, where the would-be president finished him off.

Echoing ex-Commander Rood's version, Kerry's Silver Star citation credits him alone for taking down the Viet Cong soldier, making no mention whatsoever of Bellodeau, who has died in the intervening years.


"An enemy soldier sprang up from his position not 10 feet from Swift Boat 94 and fled," the combat award reads. "Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."


And even though Kerry spoke at Bellodeau's funeral, he has done nothing to incorporate his crewmate's role in subsequent accounts of the encounter with the enemy fighter.

OMG! The more the SBV story falls apart the more desperate they become. Without seeing the original article, I'll accept your quote as being true and I don't doubt that Bellodeau might have wounded the soldier, but it's also possible in the fog of war he thought he shot him.

Regardless of his recollection, there hasn't been one shred of evidence to support his claim and every official report fails to mention it. But let's say he did wound the VC, what does that have to do with Kerry jumping off the boat like Rooder said and pursuing him? The Silver Star was awarded for breaking up an ambush, dude, and the action was praised all the way up the chain of command.

Using a dead man to support your argument is pretty low, in fact, it's rather shameful :| But nothing the Republican Party does surprises me any more.

[Hot Lips]

I'm not sure what the point of the article is. Did Kerry ever say the man was NOT wounded?

It's funny to me that if a guy on Kerry's boat agrees with him... well it's just his buddies lying for him. But if a guy on Kerry's boat disagree's with him (or in this case has an extra piece of information to add to the story that wasn't neccessarily lied about) well then it must be the gospel.

[BlackRain]

Is Rood or Kerry Lying?

Kerry's version of the truth:

"... in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong
enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket
launcher."

Source: Boston Globe - 2003 (http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml)


Rood's (who was not on Kerry's Swift Boat) version of the truth:


"John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of
Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased
as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old
the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and
I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of
garb the VC usually wore."

Source: Anti-Kerry Vets Not There That Day by William Rood (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-040821rood,1,1611037.story?coll=chi-news-hed)

Pssst... John Kerry contradicts you and his own crew mate (who served as the bow gunner on the boat). Wow, can't even keep the stories straight now.

[XASA]

Is Rood or Kerry Lying?

Kerry's version of the truth:

"... in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong
enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket
launcher."

Source: Boston Globe - 2003 (http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml)


Rood's (who was not on Kerry's Swift Boat) version of the truth:


"John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of
Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased
as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old
the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and
I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of
garb the VC usually wore."

Source: Anti-Kerry Vets Not There That Day by William Rood (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-040821rood,1,1611037.story?coll=chi-news-hed)

Pssst... John Kerry contradicts you and his own crew mate (who served as the bow gunner on the boat). Wow, can't even keep the stories straight now.

LOL! :P Now who is telling the truth or not hinges on whether or not a VC was wearing a loin cloth :cantbeli: Black Rain you can do better than that. Why don't you come back later with something a bit more substantial. I understand the SBVT webpage is working overtime to come up with more sh** to throw up against the wall hoping that some of it will stick. Unfortunately, they are correct. Goebells proved years ago that the big lie does have an effect on the populace and it doesn't get any bigger than this. Nice try, though ;)

[BlackRain]

Short - A Kerry Support Back's Dead Man's Claim

Tommy Belodeau was manning the boat's M-60 machine gun, Short said. "Tommy in the pit tank winged him in the side of the legs as he was coming across," he said. "But the guy didn't miss stride. I mean, he did not break stride."

Multiple sources state the VC was wounded by Belodeau, however, this was never mentioned in John Kerry's after action report. John Kerry credited himself alone for saving his men.

Source: ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry_medal_040624-1.html)

[Hot Lips]

Is Rood or Kerry Lying?

Kerry's version of the truth:

"... in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong
enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket
launcher."

Source: Boston Globe - 2003 (http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml)


Rood's (who was not on Kerry's Swift Boat) version of the truth:


"John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of
Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased
as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old
the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and
I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of
garb the VC usually wore."

Source: Anti-Kerry Vets Not There That Day by William Rood (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-040821rood,1,1611037.story?coll=chi-news-hed)

Pssst... John Kerry contradicts you and his own crew mate (who served as the bow gunner on the boat). Wow, can't even keep the stories straight now.

I looked at the Boston Globe article and that sentence is not a quote from Kerry. It's a statement by the Globe not referrencing the source. Did Kerry actually say "in a loin cloth" someplace else?

From ABCNEW.com

"I guess we had gotten 800 yards or 1,000 yards at the most," recalled crewmate Fred Short. "And this time, another B-40 rocket hit, and maybe a couple more. But this one was close aboard. It blew the windows out of the crew cabin. I see out of a spider hole a Vietcong stand up dressed in a loin cloth, holding a B-40 rocket."

[SpazzMunky]

Short - A Kerry Support Back's Dead Man's Claim

Tommy Belodeau was manning the boat's M-60 machine gun, Short said. "Tommy in the pit tank winged him in the side of the legs as he was coming across," he said. "But the guy didn't miss stride. I mean, he did not break stride."

Multiple sources state the VC was wounded by Belodeau, however, this was never mentioned in John Kerry's after action report. John Kerry credited himself alone for saving his men.

Source: ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry_medal_040624-1.html)

Clearly an important peice of information. If this is true, and the VC was grazed by a bullet before Kerry chased him down,than clearly Kerry is unfit to be president.

[Hot Lips]

Short - A Kerry Support Back's Dead Man's Claim

Tommy Belodeau was manning the boat's M-60 machine gun, Short said. "Tommy in the pit tank winged him in the side of the legs as he was coming across," he said. "But the guy didn't miss stride. I mean, he did not break stride."

Multiple sources state the VC was wounded by Belodeau, however, this was never mentioned in John Kerry's after action report. John Kerry credited himself alone for saving his men.

Source: ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry_medal_040624-1.html)

"But the guy didn't miss stride" -- it is possible that Kerry didn't see this while he was doing his part of events. You can't see everything at all times. If the guy never broke stride he may not have noticed. And while these guys say that the one wounded the VC -- did they tell Kerry that at the time? I didn't read that they were quoted as accussing Kerry of lying or hiding information.

[BlackRain]

Short - A Kerry Support Back's Dead Man's Claim

Tommy Belodeau was manning the boat's M-60 machine gun, Short said. "Tommy in the pit tank winged him in the side of the legs as he was coming across," he said. "But the guy didn't miss stride. I mean, he did not break stride."

Multiple sources state the VC was wounded by Belodeau, however, this was never mentioned in John Kerry's after action report. John Kerry credited himself alone for saving his men.

Source: ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry_medal_040624-1.html)

Clearly an important peice of information. If this is true, and the VC was grazed by a bullet before Kerry chased him down,than clearly Kerry is unfit to be president.

The importance of the after action reports are that they were the basis for John Kerry's medals.

This Whole Matter could be easily solved by John Kerry signing the Pentagon Form 180 to release ALL of his military/medical records.

This would show how/why Kerry was awarded his first purple heart award after initially being turned down by his commander among other things.

The main point of this who exercise is "who is telling the truth". Is it the 250 plus Swift Boat Veterans or John Kerry?

Why is it important? Well, in my opinion, character means something. Lies do matter especially when you are the President. So many of the folks upset at George Bush are angry at him for "lying" about WMD

But those same people are poised to elect a man who's honor has been called into question by men who served this country and were awarded more medals than Kerry.

Are we to believe that "lying" is now unimportant after hammering Bush for lying about WMD for the past year?

[Hot Lips]

This is on Kerry's website. He DOES say the man was wounded first

28 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
Three PCFs were traveling up the Bay Hap River with 70 South Vietnamese Militia investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night. During the patrol, the boats came under heavy fore from the shore. Kerry, serving as the Officer in Tactical Command of the mission, ordered the units to turn toward the fire and beach. As the boats approached shore, more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran. They were quickly overrun when the Marines troops reached the shore. While the Militia searched the area, PCFs 23 and 94 left to investigate another site where an Army advisor reported gunshots. Returning from the site, a B-40 rocket exploded close to PCF94, blowing out one of the windows. Kerry again ordered the units to turn into the fire and charge the ambush site. PCF 94 landed in the center of ambush and a man jumped up holding a B-40 rocket launcher and started to run. The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him. Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swiftboats. The landing parties found vast stores of rice, ammunition and clothing. The boats were fired on one additional time as they were heading back down the river. The site of the second ambush was believed to be a major Viet Cong supply point. Kerry received the Silver Star for this operation.



I don't understand how the guy being grazed by a bullet first (which Kerry doesn't deny) makes him unfit. Are you guys suggesting that a man with a rocket launcher that has merely been grazed by a bullet and was able to "not break stride" couldn't turn and fire on the boat and kill the crew? Kerry went ashore and made sure this didn't happen. That is not being disputed.

[XASA]

This is on Kerry's website. He DOES say the man was wounded first

28 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
Three PCFs were traveling up the Bay Hap River with 70 South Vietnamese Militia investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night. During the patrol, the boats came under heavy fore from the shore. Kerry, serving as the Officer in Tactical Command of the mission, ordered the units to turn toward the fire and beach. As the boats approached shore, more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran. They were quickly overrun when the Marines troops reached the shore. While the Militia searched the area, PCFs 23 and 94 left to investigate another site where an Army advisor reported gunshots. Returning from the site, a B-40 rocket exploded close to PCF94, blowing out one of the windows. Kerry again ordered the units to turn into the fire and charge the ambush site. PCF 94 landed in the center of ambush and a man jumped up holding a B-40 rocket launcher and started to run. The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him. Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swiftboats. The landing parties found vast stores of rice, ammunition and clothing. The boats were fired on one additional time as they were heading back down the river. The site of the second ambush was believed to be a major Viet Cong supply point. Kerry received the Silver Star for this operation.



Great research Hot Lips. Too bad those who are so intent on denigrating Kerry's war record didn't take the time to do the same before spreading their lies ;) The more its claims are questioned, the more the SBVT and its supporters try to dredge up more mud. Sad to say, the ads and book have made a dent in Kerry's veteran support; however, I'm sure once all the facts are laid out for the electorate, this whole episode is going to backfire big time on the Bush administration.

The lies have also strengthened Bush's base, who have become programmed to believe anything negative about Kerry despite proof that someone has been lying to them (again) ;) I think it has also made Kerry's base aware of what they are up against, and they will be taking off the kid gloves and begin attacking Bush more than they have.

I think this is just the beginning of what will become the most dirtiest election since Nixon and McGovern in 1972. Nixon won the election but lost the presidency because of dirty tricks.

[BlackRain]

The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him.

Great, that is a good example of what I am talking about.

During a John Kerry 1996 press conference, Kerry stated he never went behind the hootch, and that no one had suggested otherwise in 30 years.

Which Is it?

[Hot Lips]

Have you ever been in a stress filled situation? For example, when the police investigate a crime most eye witnesses give very different descriptions of criminals or can't remember at all. In many cases they give the statments with absolute certainty. They are not lying - they just don't remember all the details that they think they do -- very few people do.

I was in a car accident once and while I was dead on with some of my recollections - other things that I was absolutely sure of turned out to not be right (such as tinted windows were there weren't any or not windows were their were on a van). Those details didn't really matter because I was right over all and those little details didn't change the fact that the other guy was drunk, violated traffic laws, and hit me. I remembered what he looked like and the business logo on the side of the van. The most important details.

No one is saying Kerry didn't instruct the crew to turn into the source of the ambush. No one is saying Kerry lied about the guy being wounded. No one is saying Kerry didn't leap off the boat and kill a VC that had a rocket launcher that he could have easily turned and used again on the boats. Are they?

If Kerry tells me ha had a chocolate cake for his 16th birthday and it turns out it was actually carrot cake..... what does it matter. He had cake.

Memory is not perfect -- which is why we document situations as soon as possible after the fact. I'm more inclinded to go with official documents than a 33 year old memory.

[BlackRain]

Memory is not perfect -- which is why we document situations as soon as possible after the fact. I'm more inclinded to go with official documents than a 33 year old memory.

Yeah, but.... if Kerry is wrong about that what else is he wrong about?

Remember the lie Kerry was caught in when proclaimed he was in combat on Christmas Eve, 1968 in Cambodia. It was "seared" into his memory.

When that was easily disproved, Kerry spokeman Jeh Johnson said Kerry was "near" Cambodia.

What about the wopper where Sen. Kerry's stated that he left Yale in 1966 and turned down all options to further his education by choosing to serve his country.

Then, it turns out that Kerry contacted his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.

[Huck Mucus]

To answer your question, Blackrain:

Of the 250 Not So Swift Vets, those who speak out against Kerry based upon their personal opinions regarding his post-war, anti-war activities are merely expressing their opinions. That does not make them liars.

Of the 250 Not So Swift Vets who speak out against Kerry based upon his combat actions of which they have no first hand knowlege, all of them are liars. Not only are they liars, their actions are dishonorable, cowardly, a disgrace to the uniform, and a slap in the face to all Vietnam Veterans that is so much worse than anything Kerry could have done in speaking against the war and telling his version of the truth. Yes, all of them are liars. Indisputable, incontravertable, demonstrated, proven liars. Not only does the record prove them to be liars (an official record written by some of them and undisputed for decades), but the first-hand, eyewitness accounts of those who were actually there, some of which are avowed Republicans, proves them to be liars. Their own moon-walking and self-contradictory messages prove them to be liars. No reasonable juror could ever find even one scintilla of evidence in support of them. Not one.

Oh, and as to the loin cloth crap, that was a Not So Swift Vet lie, not Kerry's version as you mistated. Yeah, that's right, keep telling the lie long enough and maybe it will become true some day. Just like the Cambodia issue. It has NOT been demonstrated that he was NOT in Cambodia. It was only demonstrated that seven hours earlier and only two hours away from the Cambodian boarder, he was still in Vietnam. What did they do the rest of the day, spank the monkey? Better have some evidence before running your suck or you'll get called on it again. I ask, were you there? And one final thing, you might want to look into and study the concept of present recollection recorded, and past recollection refreshed. Compare with all the crap being pulled out of the ass of the Not So Swift Vet disgraces who's words are not worth the paper they are written on (or not writting on, in some cases).

Sorry people, I'm done with this ****. You all can have the last word. I've never seen such a dishonorable bunch of crap in my life. These people remind me of the humiliators of Abu Graib (sp?). They make me ashamed of the uniform I wore. Especially since so many of them claim to hold the title "American" and hold the term "patriot" as their own. It sickens me that the veterans community, who talks so much about the band of brothers and respecting combat actions of those whose conduct you NEVER F*****G saw are stanind idly by while these cowards **** all over that principle.

Like Hackworth opined, now the Navy has cause to finally look a little closer at their awards proceedure. Well, by that token, I suggest every f*****g medal that has ever been issued to anyone for anything is now suspect. Any little bitch-coward with a political difference or vendetta, or who has professional jeolosy or whatever, can now come along and call it all ****. And no, you don't have to be in politics or running for office or anything else. Every Bronze start issued that one day, not just to Kerry and the Not So Swift Liar, but the enlisted sailor on the gun who had nothing to do with all this crap, it's all open to question now.

Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it's time we stop awarding, idolizing and honoring our veterans, and the idea of combat, and fighting for one's country. Maybe you Not So Swift liars and those who swallow their swill should think a little more about what you doing before you start running your man-pleasers like this. Shame, shame, shame.

Finally, Kerry did NOT start this "tough-guy" ****. It was Cheney, Rummy, George and Ashcroft. All you punks got your card pulled, and now you are dragging innocent men down with you. Well, I'm sure you won't be losing any sleep over it. You've sent nigh-on to a 1,000 to their deaths so far, plus wounded, all for your "tough-guy" image and the pocketbooks of your buddies. Talk about the Axis of Evil. There is a place in hell waiting for you and the lap-dog, simian drones who fall for your crap. I'm sure the veterans in heaven will make sure you don't gain entrance. Lieing, thieving, greedy, cowardly, un-American, dishonorable traitors that you are.

I'm going to go take a shower and bag this ****. It makes me feel dirty just talking about you and to your sheep.

To the rest of you, Semper Fi, Peace, Out.

[moughoun]

To answer your question, Blackrain:

Of the 250 Not So Swift Vets, those who speak out against Kerry based upon their personal opinions regarding his post-war, anti-war activities are merely expressing their opinions. That does not make them liars.

Of the 250 Not So Swift Vets who speak out against Kerry based upon his combat actions of which they have no first hand knowlege, all of them are liars. Not only are they liars, their actions are dishonorable, cowardly, a disgrace to the uniform, and a slap in the face to all Vietnam Veterans that is so much worse than anything Kerry could have done in speaking against the war and telling his version of the truth. Yes, all of them are liars. Indisputable, incontravertable, demonstrated, proven liars. Not only does the record prove them to be liars (an official record written by some of them and undisputed for decades), but the first-hand, eyewitness accounts of those who were actually there, some of which are avowed Republicans, proves them to be liars. Their own moon-walking and self-contradictory messages prove them to be liars. No reasonable juror could ever find even one scintilla of evidence in support of them. Not one.

Oh, and as to the loin cloth crap, that was a Not So Swift Vet lie, not Kerry's version as you mistated. Yeah, that's right, keep telling the lie long enough and maybe it will become true some day. Just like the Cambodia issue. It has NOT been demonstrated that he was NOT in Cambodia. It was only demonstrated that seven hours earlier and only two hours away from the Cambodian boarder, he was still in Vietnam. What did they do the rest of the day, spank the monkey? Better have some evidence before running your suck or you'll get called on it again. I ask, were you there? And one final thing, you might want to look into and study the concept of present recollection recorded, and past recollection refreshed. Compare with all the crap being pulled out of the ass of the Not So Swift Vet disgraces who's words are not worth the paper they are written on (or not writting on, in some cases).

Sorry people, I'm done with this ****. You all can have the last word. I've never seen such a dishonorable bunch of crap in my life. These people remind me of the humiliators of Abu Graib (sp?). They make me ashamed of the uniform I wore. Especially since so many of them claim to hold the title "American" and hold the term "patriot" as their own. It sickens me that the veterans community, who talks so much about the band of brothers and respecting combat actions of those whose conduct you NEVER F*****G saw are stanind idly by while these cowards **** all over that principle.

Like Hackworth opined, now the Navy has cause to finally look a little closer at their awards proceedure. Well, by that token, I suggest every f*****g medal that has ever been issued to anyone for anything is now suspect. Any little bitch-coward with a political difference or vendetta, or who has professional jeolosy or whatever, can now come along and call it all ****. And no, you don't have to be in politics or running for office or anything else. Every Bronze start issued that one day, not just to Kerry and the Not So Swift Liar, but the enlisted sailor on the gun who had nothing to do with all this crap, it's all open to question now.

Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it's time we stop awarding, idolizing and honoring our veterans, and the idea of combat, and fighting for one's country. Maybe you Not So Swift liars and those who swallow their swill should think a little more about what you doing before you start running your man-pleasers like this. Shame, shame, shame.

Finally, Kerry did NOT start this "tough-guy" ****. It was Cheney, Rummy, George and Ashcroft. All you punks got your card pulled, and now you are dragging innocent men down with you. Well, I'm sure you won't be losing any sleep over it. You've sent nigh-on to a 1,000 to their deaths so far, plus wounded, all for your "tough-guy" image and the pocketbooks of your buddies. Talk about the Axis of Evil. There is a place in hell waiting for you and the lap-dog, simian drones who fall for your crap. I'm sure the veterans in heaven will make sure you don't gain entrance. Lieing, thieving, greedy, cowardly, un-American, dishonorable traitors that you are.

I'm going to go take a shower and bag this ****. It makes me feel dirty just talking about you and to your sheep.

To the rest of you, Semper Fi, Peace, Out.

Wow!!

[SpazzMunky]

The importance of the after action reports are that they were the basis for John Kerry's medals.

This Whole Matter could be easily solved by John Kerry signing the Pentagon Form 180 to release ALL of his military/medical records.

This would show how/why Kerry was awarded his first purple heart award after initially being turned down by his commander among other things.

The main point of this who exercise is "who is telling the truth". Is it the 250 plus Swift Boat Veterans or John Kerry?

Why is it important? Well, in my opinion, character means something. Lies do matter especially when you are the President. So many of the folks upset at George Bush are angry at him for "lying" about WMD

But those same people are poised to elect a man who's honor has been called into question by men who served this country and were awarded more medals than Kerry.

Are we to believe that "lying" is now unimportant after hammering Bush for lying about WMD for the past year?

So 'lying' about WMDs = 'lying' about whether a VC was wounded before he was killed?

[XASA]

A POW who supports Kerry and was held prisoner with two of the POWs in the SBVT ad says they are "full of it", while even more eyewitnesses come out of the woodwork to condemn the SBVT.

Since there is so much bullsh** being flung by the SBVT, some of it will stick, but, like all lies, the truth will always come out.

Kerry Team Lines Up Vietnam Witnesses
Bush Again Declines To Condemn Attack Ad

By Lois Romano and Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 24, 2004; Page A01

The Kerry campaign ratcheted up its defense of the Democrat's military record yesterday, producing three veterans to attest to John F. Kerry's valor in Vietnam while pointing reporters to other veterans who expressed disgust at the attacks on the presidential nominee.

In a conference call with reporters arranged by the campaign, three Navy Swift boat officers who served with Kerry 35 years ago but who said they have not been in touch with him for years defended his service and his bravery. Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker said Kerry served honorably and took issue with questions raised by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth about his commendations.


"He was the most aggressive officer in charge of Swift boats," Baker said. "With no disrespect to anyone out there, the whole Swift boat operation took courage and guts every time you stepped on those boats. But John Kerry was one step above the rest of us."

The conference call was part of a Kerry offensive aimed at regaining control of an issue that has been the centerpiece of his presidential bid -- his Vietnam service. The campaign has been roiled by an ad that questions Kerry's valor and accuses him of misrepresenting the facts that led to some of his commendations.

President Bush yesterday repeated his condemnation of unregulated money that he said was "pouring" into the political process. But he stopped short of denouncing the ad by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is being aired in three battleground states and is funded largely by Republicans.

Bush praised Kerry's military service in Vietnam. "I think Senator Kerry served admirably, and he ought to be proud of his record," he said.

But, pressed several times by reporters at his ranch in Crawford, Tex., about whether he would specifically condemn the ad, Bush would only say: "That means that ad and every other ad. I'm denouncing all the stuff."

In Oshkosh, Wis., Kerry's running mate, John Edwards, blasted Bush for not being more critical of the ad and the claims by the group. "Today, George Bush faced his moment of truth and he failed," said Edwards, who has repeatedly called on the president to denounce the veterans group's ad. "He failed to condemn the specific attacks on John Kerry's military record. We didn't need to hear a politician's answer, but unfortunately that's what we got."

Adm. Roy Hoffmann, a founder of the anti-Kerry group, issued a statement in response to Bush's comment: "It would make no difference if John Kerry were a Republican, Democrat or an Independent, Swift Boat Veterans would still be speaking the truth concerning John Kerry's military service record in Vietnam, his actions after returning home and his lack of qualifications to be the next Commander in Chief."

While getting off to a slow start in responding to the ad, Kerry's campaign is frantically trying to mobilize veterans to speak out. Former senator Max Cleland (D-Ga.), who lost three limbs in Vietnam, spent the weekend in Wisconsin denouncing the Swift boat ads and attacks, and Kerry's crewmates have been fanning out across the country to defend him.

In Pennsylvania, crewmate Del Sandusky said at a news conference that he witnessed the combat missions for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts. "He deserved every one of his medals," Sandusky said.

William L. Sweidel, a decorated Korean War veteran who appeared with Sandusky, said later that he voted for both Bushes for president but will support Kerry because of these attacks. "I called the campaign to express outrage. I was disappointed. I was diminished," Sweidel said. "Nobody was talking about how it was hurting all veterans to have them criticize Kerry's medals. The whole system is now suspect based on what these people are saying. It's pernicious."

Phil Butler, who spent eight years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, took issue with suggestions by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that Kerry's antiwar protests caused the POWs to be treated badly. "I lived with two of the POWs who are now in that group -- Mr. [Ken] Courdier and Mr. [Paul] Gallanti -- and I am telling you, they are full of it. We never heard a blooming thing about John Kerry while we were there," said Butler, who contacted the campaign months ago to support Kerry and only recently heard back from Kerry's veterans coordinator, John Hurley.

Butler said that while he was tortured and mistreated until 1969, by the time Kerry was protesting the war and speaking before the Senate Armed Services Committee in 1971, the POWs were better treated.
On Friday, a company called First Run Features is slated to debut a documentary about Kerry and his Swift boat crewmates, "Brothers in Arms," in a New York theater. Director Paul Alexander, who calls it "a very sympathetic portrait," said that no one was interested when he finished it last Christmas but that the recent controversy has given it a boost. He said the film will be sold as a DVD and could reach theaters around the country.

In the conference call, Baker said he thought that former senator Robert J. Dole's critical comments Sunday about Kerry's medals were inappropriate and that Dole had no "business" judging the injuries for which Kerry received three Purple Hearts. "John Kerry is lucky to be alive today," Baker said. "The fourth Purple Heart could have been an AK-47 through his heart."

McCann said that he tried to stay out of politics but that when he saw that the Swift boat group had identified him on its Web site as being "neutral" on Kerry without asking him, he was furious. Kerry's commendation record "has stood for 35 years and suddenly you've got people coming forward saying, 'Well, I've had second thoughts about this,' " McCann said. "That is dishonoring not only John Kerry, it is dishonoring all veterans."

In anticipation of the airing of the group's ad attacking Kerry's antiwar efforts, the Kerry campaign has launched a new ad, calling the Swift boat commercials "smears and lies" and accusing the Bush operation of using the same tactic it used against Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) in the 2000 GOP primaries.

In response, the Bush campaign yesterday sent letters to 27 television stations in 11 cities in the battleground states of Ohio, Wisconsin and West Virginia that called the Kerry campaign ad "false and libelous" for its contention that Bush was illegally coordinating with the Swift boat group. The letter did not ask the stations to ban the ad.

Rick Lipps, general manager of WNWO-TV, the NBC affiliate in Toledo, said TV stations were caught in the crossfire between the campaigns. Although he had not seen the Bush campaign's complaint as of late yesterday, Lipps said his station "tries to do its homework" by asking all political advertisers to verify advertising claims. "There isn't much way to take it further than that," he said.

The president's comments yesterday were similar to those he made on CNN's "Larry King Live" on Aug. 12, when King asked him if he would denounce the anti-Kerry ad. "Well, I haven't seen the ad, but what I do condemn is these unregulated soft-money expenditures by very wealthy people," Bush said.

Privately, Bush aides said they felt under no pressure to change their position on the Swift boat ads because the controversy seems to be hurting Kerry more than Bush. But they are irritated that the media have been taking seriously the Kerry complaint to the Federal Election Commission. The complaint, filed yesterday, accuses the Bush campaign of breaking election law by coordinating the ads with the independent group. The Bush aides are determined not to give Kerry an opening by criticizing Swift Boat Veterans for Truth directly.

Questioned after Bush's remarks, White House press secretary Scott McClellan repeatedly declined to criticize the content of the Swift boat ads. "Senator Kerry wants to have it both ways," by selectively calling on Bush to condemn one group's ads, McClellan said. "Senator Kerry can help put an end to all of this by joining us in calling for a stop to all of these ads."

Dole yesterday went back on CNN, where he had made his critical remarks the previous day, to say that he had received a call from Kerry. "I said, 'John, I didn't mean to offend you,' " Dole said. "But I said, 'You know, when you continue to attack George Bush . . . you know, George Bush is my guy.' . . . The final words were 'John, I wish you good luck up to a point.' "

Milbank reported from Crawford, Tex. Staff writers Paul Farhi and Howard Kurtz in Washington contributed to this report.

[BlackRain]

Kerry has only himself to blame.

He made his 4 month service in Vietnam the central plank of his campaign.

There are two John Kerry's. One was a naval officer and one that was a leader of a violent anti-war group that also advocacted killing US elected officials.

John Kerry should have just run on his political experience in the Senate and avoided dredging up these bitter feels held over from the Vietnam War. This experience shows that there still a lot of simmering feelings left over from the war on both sides.

John awakened a giant.

http://images.washtimes.com/photos/full/20040823-123436-1721.jpg


http://gogov.com/images/kerrywaambulance100.jpg

[fokket]

This Kerry guy has a lot of skeletons in his closet. The Dem-dominated media should have stayed with Dean.

Dem-dominated media? Are you kidding me?