Death In Gaza

[flickme]

Anyone here ever see it on HBO? Its a pretty insightful documentary of life of children in Gaza. It also documents the death of a British reporter James Miller. I recommend watching it if u can.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/death_in_gaza/

[hood]

Yeah I just caught this one this morning. It's a rather powerful documentary that follows several young boys who are living in occupied Gaza. I think the best documentaries contain the least narration like this one. They let the people being filmed do their own thing and we get a better picture without the narrator telling us what to think. I've been sitting here on these boards for a while now, in disbelief about how Palestinian parents can let their kids grow up to be militants and suicide bombers. This documentary exposes what's driving these people to do what they do without blaming any one factor. As is mentioned in the video, the producer was killed by Israeli gunfire, but their intent was to show the flipside by following several Israeli children in the same fashion. I hope that film gets made regardless but it probably won't. Overall, I'd highly suggest watching this one.

[Javehn]

Isn't that the reporter who were shot by IDF tank ?
Can someone tell more about this movie ? Strangle enough , we don't have HBO over here .


who are living in occupied Gaza
Correction , it is not ;) . You are confusing it with something else .

[hood]

Correction , it is not . You are confusing it with something else .

What would you call it then?

[Javehn]

Correction , it is not . You are confusing it with something else .

What would you call it then?

Just living in ****y enviroment , in the middle of big mess .

[big80a2]

from the trailer looks like a nice film.
hope they will show it in the Netherlands as well.

[Moledet]

Correction , it is not . You are confusing it with something else .

What would you call it then?
The Gaza strip was given to Israel by Egypt in 1979 peace agreement.

[Argyll]

:cantbeli: ..........here we go again!

[Moledet]

:cantbeli: ..........here we go again!
What? It's a fact, I said nothing wrong.

Israel conquered the Gaza strip in a tank fight with Egypt in 1967, in 1973 the Egyptians were far from conquering it back and in 1979 peace agreement they told us to leave it under our control. In 1993 Gaza city and Rafah were given to the Palestinians and the rest stayed under Israeli control.

[hood]

In 1993 Gaza city and Rafah were given to the Palestinians and the rest stayed under Israeli control.

Much of the documentary takes place in Rafah. The Israeli's constant tanks rolling through there kind of makes it occupied, doesn't it?

[UoUo]

In 1993 Gaza city and Rafah were given to the Palestinians and the rest stayed under Israeli control.

Much of the documentary takes place in Rafah. The Israeli's constant tanks rolling through there kind of makes it occupied, doesn't it?

No 1 singale soldair is in rafah....

We don't control there...

[Moledet]

In 1993 Gaza city and Rafah were given to the Palestinians and the rest stayed under Israeli control.

Much of the documentary takes place in Rafah. The Israeli's constant tanks rolling through there kind of makes it occupied, doesn't it?
No, it's just an operation to discover tunnels, most of the time the forces are not in Rafah, but on the Egyptian boarder also they only entered to few neighberhoods and not to the whole city.

P.S. Israel kept the Boarder with Egypt as its own boarder and Rafah is half Egyptian half Palestinian, but the boarder is Israeli and was never given to the Palestinians.

[hood]

Well, I guess it's just a matter of wording. :) When you spend more time with your troops in an area, than without, eventually it's going to be called occupation whether it's technically accurate or not.


Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza since 1967. Sharon argues a unilateral withdrawal is needed because Israel has been unable to find a Palestinian partner to negotiate a peace agreement. Under his proposal, Israel would pull all troops out of Gaza and abandon all settlements in the territory, but it would keep six large settlement blocs in the West Bank.

[Moledet]

Well, I guess it's just a matter of wording. :) When you spend more time with your troops in an area, than without, eventually it's going to be called occupation whether it's technically accurate or not.


Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza since 1967. Sharon argues a unilateral withdrawal is needed because Israel has been unable to find a Palestinian partner to negotiate a peace agreement. Under his proposal, Israel would pull all troops out of Gaza and abandon all settlements in the territory, but it would keep six large settlement blocs in the West Bank.
This map might help you:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_1992.jpg
The gray parts are Palestinian terrain.
P.S. because the map is big it looks like the area is big or that Israel cities are far from the Palestinian cities, but it's not so true, as an exmaple: From Dugit it's possible to see Gaza city and even to walk to Gaza city (they have concrete blocks there because the range is short enough for effective sniper shooting).

[username]

admin's plz lock.... this will turn into a flame war

[Argyll]

What about the part that says "Israeli occupied-Status to be determined",on a map that came out nearly 20 years after your claim about the Egyptians giving it to Israel? ;)

It's been well documented as being in the "Occuped territories"......have we been told lies for 30 years?

Was the handover/token gesture by Egypt ever a formal one,or was it done by "word of mouth?".......I'm just curious?>

[W(M)D]

It's been well documented as being in the "Occuped territories"......have we been told lies for 30 years?

It is definitely occupied territory - occupied by the Palestinians!
The Egyptians would not take control of the Gaza strip in the Camp David accord because they did not want the trouble that came with the Palestinians.

[Moledet]

What about the part that says "Israeli occupied-Status to be determined",on a map that came out nearly 20 years after your claim about the Egyptians giving it to Israel? ;)

It's been well documented as being in the "Occuped territories"......have we been told lies for 30 years?

Was the handover/token gesture by Egypt ever a formal one,or was it done by "word of mouth?".......I'm just curious?>
I have no clue why they wrote such a baseless thing even before the Oslo accords were signed. Maybe they talk about Begin's authonomy plan that give the Palestinian administrative control over the Palestinian population, but without the right to have a territory. Ofcourse this plan was canceled because the PLO and Jordan refused to discuss with Israel about this plan.

As you can see it's a formal decission because the boarder between Israel and Egypt is not passing in Gaza strip or around Gaza strip.

P.S. Some people consider the Golan as an occupied terrain, while the UN consider it as part of Israel.

[Argyll]

P.S. Some people consider the Golan as an occupied terrain, while the UN consider it as part of Israel.

Really,what about the UN resoloutions demanding Israel withdraws back to the lines of 67? res 93/242/338

[Moledet]

P.S. Some people consider the Golan as an occupied terrain, while the UN consider it as part of Israel.

Really,what about the UN resoloutions demanding Israel withdraws back to the lines of 67? res 93/242/338
In thses resolution there's a "small" part that say that no terrain will be given without a peace agreement between the countries.

[Argyll]

P.S. Some people consider the Golan as an occupied terrain, while the UN consider it as part of Israel.

Really,what about the UN resoloutions demanding Israel withdraws back to the lines of 67? res 93/242/338
In thses resolution there's a "small" part that say that no terrain will be given without a peace agreement between the countries.

Yes,but you said the UN recognises Golan as Israeli,when it's clear due to these resoloution still in effect that it does not!

[Moledet]

P.S. Some people consider the Golan as an occupied terrain, while the UN consider it as part of Israel.

Really,what about the UN resoloutions demanding Israel withdraws back to the lines of 67? res 93/242/338
In thses resolution there's a "small" part that say that no terrain will be given without a peace agreement between the countries.

Yes,but you said the UN recognises Golan as Israeli,when it's clear due to these resoloution still in effect that it does not!
As long as there's no peace agreement it's Israeli and I can assure you that there won't be a peace agreement that will give this important terrain.

[W(M)D]

Argyll - Perhaps the UN will ultimately guarantee Israel's physical existence? Personally I dont think so.

The UN will eventually go the same way as the League of Nations, both great in principle but bugger all use in practise.

[hood]

So with Sharon attempting to have Israel take these actions since he feels there's no adequate counterpart on the side of the Palestinians, why is there so much resistance from the members of the Israeli government? Do they truly want this to go on forever? Documentaries like this show what happens when conflicts like this are dragged out too long. The putrecence of hatred and extreme propaganda seep into every day life and the teachings in regular grade school slowly take a sinister tone as was shown in the film. Stuff like that doesn't happen overnight, that happens over many years of watching your family being picked off by the other side. I'm all for unilateral action by Israel, as long as it indeed happens.

[Moledet]

So with Sharon attempting to have Israel take these actions since he feels there's no adequate counterpart on the side of the Palestinians, why is there so much resistance from the members of the Israeli government? Do they truly want this to go on forever? Documentaries like this show what happens when conflicts like this are dragged out too long. The putrecence of hatred and extreme propaganda seep into every day life and the teachings in regular grade school slowly take a sinister tone as was shown in the film. Stuff like that doesn't happen overnight, that happens over many years of watching your family being picked off by the other side. I'm all for unilateral action by Israel, as long as it indeed happens.
Not only government officials are against it, but almost all the military top commanders and many soldiers that are now serving in Gaza strip. It's possible to see why even now when Qassam rockets are falling on Sderot (a city that is not in Gaza strip).
The conflict will continue for ever as long as the Palestinians are here, this move of Sharon won't do a thing to help to finish it, just as an example: The terrorists agree to stop the terror attacks from Gaza strip (there was only one attack), but at the same time they will make more terror attack through the West Bank. It's just redicolous to even talk about peace with them, we should start offering them money so they'll leave to Jordan, that's the best solution.

[W(M)D]

It's just redicolous to even talk about peace with them, we should start offering them money so they'll leave to Jordan, that's the best solution.

I dont reckon that King Hussein would be too happy with that, considering that his population stands at 50%+ or so Palestinian now!!!

[mack pl]

It's just redicolous to even talk about peace with them, we should start offering them money so they'll leave to Jordan, that's the best solution.

I dont reckon that King Hussein would be too happy with that, considering that his population stands at 50%+ or so Palestinian now!!!
yup, don't forget what Jordanians did with Palestinian camps at the september 70. They killed 20 000 Palestinians, coz they were problem for Hashimid(sp.) royal dynasty.

btw king Abdullah ;)

Regards

[Mark_Aspen]

Sorry chevrei (guys, buddies in Hebr.) The strip is occupied territory no matter how much we don't want it to be, or how much we wish it wasn't there or populated by Palestinians.

On top of that, unlike (Judea & Samaria, or West Bank - take your pick) it has a more tenuous hold on being Eretz Yisrael or Land of Israel. Where's the proof? During Shnat Shmita (Biblical commandment to let the land lie fallow) we (Israel Police and Agriculture Ministry) would allow for easier shipments of produce from Gaza to make up for reduced crops in Israel proper.

Historically Gaza has always had an Arab population, and for us it would be easier if their social and economic axis were Gaza - Rafah - El Arish - Port Said, but wishing doesn't make it so. From a practical and military standpoint, we should revert to the original Rabin plan and get out as the Americans say: lock, stock and Neve Dekalim. Its going to be much easier to defend along a straight border from Kerem Shalom to Erez than in the midst of the most densely packed square miles on earth. There is no historic link like with Hebron or Shechm (Nablus) to make the issue foggy.

Just my grush's worth.

[hood]

The conflict will continue for ever as long as the Palestinians are here, this move of Sharon won't do a thing to help to finish it,

It's talk like that, that keeps it going. What you're proposing is the elimination of the people of the opposing side as the solution to the conflict. I suspect that the Germans talked like this in the beginning also. No matter how bad it gets, you can't let the past make you jaded about proposing and enacting solutions in the present and future. It's what Sharon is trying to do. Give the Palestinians the contested land, and make a wall big enough to keep them on their side of it.

[W(M)D]

Its going to be much easier to defend along a straight border from Kerem Shalom to Erez than in the midst of the most densely packed square miles on earth......Just my grush's worth.

Mark, your points are level headed, as ever, but the defence issue is a no starter, Israel is currently having difficulty protecting within it's own borders without the Pals terrosrists coming over, namely the use of missiles like the Kassam. How long until they get range on Ashkelon or pack their warheads with something a little more lethal.
Also, even after a 'disengagement', the IDF will need to re enter and carry out large raids in order to destroy terror infrastructure.
Best for Israel to physically dominate the battlefield in the first place on the ground.

[W(M)D]

btw king Abdullah ;)

Thanks for the correction.

[hood]

Also, even after a 'disengagement', the IDF will need to re enter and carry out large raids in order to destroy terror infrastructure.
Best for Israel to physically dominate the battlefield in the first place on the ground.

This sounds very much like Afghanistan, except that Israel isn't trying to rebuild those cities afterwards so that terrorists don't just come back and thrive again. Bombing alone accomplishes very little. It's just whack-a-mole. Those territories need to be rebuilt for people to start getting on with their lives and doing more productive things with them.

[gilgoul]

Guys, to the risk of being flamed by my owns, Jahven, moledet (what a name), you guys ought to stop playing on the words if you want to retain some credibility.
WE do occupy Gaza, might we like the word or not.
The Gaza strip isn`t "free and independant", and the gush katif cuts a large chunk of it. Without discussing if we have a "right" or not to impose our presence to a population that obviously ressents it, and even if we left a lot of outposts following the oslo agreements, we still try to control strategic axes of comunication and holld ground in some places.
Does it mean that we "occupy" most of Gaza, no
Does it mean that we control a big part of it, sure yes.
From that you can call me a lefty or a bleeding heart if you want, I`m used to it and don`t think I am one, but I sure support our prime minister when he calls for a complete withdrawal of the Gaza strip and hope to see soon the emergence of a palestinian leadership able to lead its people to a peacefull two state solution. Any other option is simply dangerously utopist.


Hood, Argyll.
The very fact of the presence of our forces in the strip and the west bank is for a simple reason, not controlling whats going on there and trusting the Palestinian authority lead us to the situation we are in today, heavy smuggling and knowhow transfer allowed groups like the Hamas or some branches of the PLO to put up heavy fighting and gives them strategic means by the presence of rockets, mortars and short range missiles able to reach our towns and settlements way inside the green line.
One can disagree with the settlement movement in the occupied territories as defined by the resolution 242 of the security council, but unless egypt takes serious steps in order to prevent heavy smuggling of weapons throught tunnels under the rafah border area, wich I doubt it could even if it wanted it, we ought to retain control of this border for obvious reasons, we face an ennemy over there that is using every occasion and possibility to attack us, and never stopped to do so even in the "optimistic years of Oslo.
I sure feel sorry for the kids growing up there, between utter propaganda and shamefull conditions. But I refuse to carry systematic blame put on us just if we hold the key to peace and happiness in the region.
Egypt controlled the strip from 1948 to 1967, and never granted palestinians residenceship to citizenship to egypt, like they never allowed palestinian labor to come to work in Egypt itself, thus maintaining the palestinians of Gaza in abject poverty and poor condition.
The Palestinian Authority, by it`s corruption and its systematic incompetence to tackle the problems is also much to blame in the poor situation there, you should take a look at Gaza city to see on the gentle slopes of this town the most beautiful villas of this part of the Middle east, the brand new mercedes cars and the armed guards protecting properties against the kids of the slums. All of those goodies by the money of corruption and laundering.

Showing only Jabalya and Rafiah is partial and innacurate, to you argyll, I guess you can understand that trhought you field experience, when media are showing essentialy the violence and the ****up in Irak, presenting the contractors as trigger happy mercenaries and the coalition forces as some bunch of dumb asses going there to kill "ragheads", while all the positive things coming out of there are systematically occulted or disformed.

Hood
, one thing about construction and reconstruction, our presence in Gaza, that wanted to be "enlighted" at least at the beginning, brought a lot of investement and infrastructure works to the use of everyone, until the first intifadha.
The fact was that the gdp per capita in the Gaza strip quickly rose above the egyptian one, as well as the west bank income rose way higher than in Jordan.
A lot of effort was put to bring improvement in the lives of the occupied population, at least on their economic and health welfare, to a great cost to Israeli society.
As for the "destructions" inflicted during the present conflict, if they are important they aren`t as widespread as one could think by watching TV. Some orchards in the strip had to be destroyed, as well as some houses in the border area, houses and shacks often built in areas slated to be unconstructible, but the PA used them for smuggling, while in the years of "quiet" we turned a blind eye for fear of ogniting a new set of confrontation.

I hope there to contribute in calming down the debate, :oops:

Shalom

[W(M)D]

[quote="HoodThis sounds very much like Afghanistan....[/quote]

I dont think so, the allies are fighting far from home without immediate threat to their nearest and dearest, Israel is fighting on it's door step for it's nearest and dearest.

Perhaps, the destroyed Gazan areas can be rebuilt, perhaps some of the billions of $$$ revenue by the Pals arab brothers can be contributed (But they care less then you do). Or perhaps the arabs can contribute to those Israeli areas destroyed by arab/Pals bombings and terror etc.

[Mark_Aspen]

W(M)D

Applying the defensive doctrine uniformly, then we really should be back in the Shouf and outside Damascus Int'l Airport. Gaza was a mud pit for us when I was in sadir (mandatory service) and we still had Super Shermans in the ugdot. I'm with Gilgoul on this, he articulated it very well; both what would be more logical for us, and what the obligations and responsibilities of the Palestinians and Egyptians should be.

My real motivatiuon is less liberal of leftist then you might think. I had a Scotch induced conversation with an American welder once (off shore oil platforms - Gulf of Mexico and Quatar) on a flight from Toronto to London. The deal is or should be, these are your borders, this is where you live and this is where we live. If you violate the peace, (and this is years before Kassem rockets) we are going to defend ourselves to the utmost, up to and including taking over the strip until you get it right.

Just remember everyone, if Nasser and King Hussein hadn't had such big mouths, we wouldn't be in Gaza.

[W(M)D]

Mark

'What if' ref Nasser etc we could play that one all day!
I believe that withdrawal wont give us any advantages, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
PS Alot of my sadir was spent in Yehuda/Shomron.

[hood]

I dont think so, the allies are fighting far from home without immediate threat to their nearest and dearest, Israel is fighting on it's door step for it's nearest and dearest.

9/11 happened right on our doorstep, unlike so many other conflicts that we have a hand in. I'm not seeing what your point is by your statement though. With the danger being so close, wouldn't you want to do all you can to make sure it doesn't happen again? How many years of bombings and raids must happen before you realize it doesn't work?

[W(M)D]

How many years of bombings and raids must happen before you realize it doesn't work?

Unfortunately for the Pals, they had their big chance and that was called Oslo, after a relatively short amount of time they decided not to go down that road. Political agreement was beyond the Pals.
Bombings and raids are a defence against a terrorism formulated by the Pals.
What do you suggest/propose that everyone has failed to see?

[hood]

I think what Sharon is proposing is what should happen. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the Pals have terrible leadership who've represented their people poorly. What I believe will work, is making the surrounding situation better for these people so that they have something to live for. Make terrorism a choice that people don't want to pursue because there are better things to look forward to; become a conduit for international aid to rebuild these lands like they've been doing in Afghanistan and ever more in Iraq. People will forget about terrorism rather quickly when they're not put into a corner.

[Argyll]

Gilgoul,
I'm totally aware of the reason for Israel being there,I never said I disagreed with them either,FWIW I'm behind a lot of what the IDF does,the point I was making is that there are "young ideologists" who see things differently than a lot of other folks,it's nice to have that kind of patriotism,but sometimes having to accept something due to it's terminology is a bitter pill to swallow...........just my 2 pence worth

[AirZone]

I think what Sharon is proposing is what should happen. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the Pals have terrible leadership who've represented their people poorly. What I believe will work, is making the surrounding situation better for these people so that they have something to live for. Make terrorism a choice that people don't want to pursue because there are better things to look forward to; become a conduit for international aid to rebuild these lands like they've been doing in Afghanistan and ever more in Iraq. People will forget about terrorism rather quickly when they're not put into a corner. We all want this... but it will happen only after Arafat is dead and his fellow corrupt friends.. now you cant not while he is stealing his people money :|

[hood]

But you can make him irrelevant, which I think the Israelis are starting to accomplish.

[gilgoul]

Gilgoul,
I'm totally aware of the reason for Israel being there,I never said I disagreed with them either,FWIW I'm behind a lot of what the IDF does,the point I was making is that there are "young ideologists" who see things differently than a lot of other folks,it's nice to have that kind of patriotism,but sometimes having to accept something due to it's terminology is a bitter pill to swallow...........just my 2 pence worth

Roger that, as you could read in my post, I`m among the people who don`t like this verbal double standart, and prefer to call a cat a cat.


heu, could you translate FWIW for the half literate I am :oops:

[Javehn]

Gilgoul , here is what occupation (at list as I see it) means . I wasn't reffering to Gaza as whole , but to the cities (btw , I have spend some time there . You would be surprised that I am lefty as you or even more . But I am not talking to strip as whole . I understood that Hood talked about the city of Gaza itself - I personally when I hear Gaza , I don't think about the entire strip) .

1) It means the cities would have Israeli military governour -which they don't have .

2)Occupation means that they have no Police or military force in their cities - which they have in full arms and uniforms , and they even used to have armored vehicles .

3)Occupation means that we control every entry and exit to their cities , and checkpoints across the cities themselfes . There are checkpoints in Gaza - but they are all Palestinian checkpoints .

4) Occupation means that IDF can move freely inside Gaza - which is not correct , or wasn't correct up until the Kassems started to fall . In my time , there were very strict rules to deviate from the allowed path (I wan't tell exactly which roads where that for obvious reason ) . From time to time , there were little counter strikes , which didn't entered more then 100 metters inside Gaza (the city , again) .

Why I am talking about the Gaza city ? Because of it's proximity to Nezarim , IDF did acted somewhere close to it , and from time to time even entered it .The same could be said about the Rafah - the city is very close to IDF positions , so IDF do act in somewhat more freely manner there .
About the cities of for example Beyt Hanun , we didn't even dreamed to come anyway near it . It was forbidden . What was allowed to access , were strictly for self defence (again , I am sorry that I can't ellaborate what was allowed for IDF to drive near Nezarim , and exactly why) .
I am talking about the era of 2001-2003 . In our days , sence the Kassams strike , IDF entered inside to perform cleansing operation . I can't bellieve that someone in here would say , that it's not the right of IDF , or the right of people of Sderot (or Gorjia as Palestinian millitants say) to live peacefully .
You have to be there to understand ... Yes , they suffered , they were shot upon , but they stoped being occupied sence Oslo .

And finally , what the hell is this movie about , can someone tell me , instead of arguing ?

[Argyll]

Gilgoul,
I'm totally aware of the reason for Israel being there,I never said I disagreed with them either,FWIW I'm behind a lot of what the IDF does,the point I was making is that there are "young ideologists" who see things differently than a lot of other folks,it's nice to have that kind of patriotism,but sometimes having to accept something due to it's terminology is a bitter pill to swallow...........just my 2 pence worth

Roger that, as you could read in my post, I`m among the people who don`t like this verbal double standart, and prefer to call a cat a cat.


heu, could you translate FWIW for the half literate I am :oops:

FWIW=For What Its Worth ;) ,yeah I work on the same attitude,a spade's a spade,some may call it a shovel,or an earth remover,or a hole creator......it's still a spade,no matter how you dress it up ;)

[gilgoul]

But you can make him irrelevant, which I think the Israelis are starting to accomplish.


We ve been warning for years of the danger Arafat and his minions represented to the peace process and to the Palestinian people, during the "quiet" years, he personaly stole millions of $ OF INTERNATIONAL support, but still enjoyed the unconditional support of both the Israeli far left and the rest of the world, while the Israeli right was working on it`s own decredibilisation by picturing both Rabin and Arafat as ennemies of Israel, wich by a strange but predictable effect granted the palestinian dictator some of the "aura" of the slained prime minister.
Just so it is known and clear, Suwa Arafat, the wife of arafat and his daughter live in Paris, a floor of the regence 5 star hotel, with a suite of 42 people, at a cost to the palestinian people of 30 to 60 (according to the different estimates) million US$ a year.
Now, in order to help the palestinian critics of arafat without helping the Hamas, the media has to relate those stories, as well as the systematic corruption of the PA agents, the price of services and basic goods that went up in the west bank, not due to some shortage but because of PA officials holding monopole and blaming the "occupation" for any of their shortcomings and crimes.
The best help the palestinians could get would be a serious and critical eye, and not the continuous flow of apologetic reports and comments holding them in their sterile and systemic victimisation. Calling them to become responsible and to draw responsible and pragmatic political lines will greatlly help their case in Israel too, where people are just waiting to see a leader they could hope to trust a enough to resume some form of peace or separation plan, but this time, we`ll have to keep an eye on the palestinian education system, including the UNWRA schools, guilty of having payed for and taught antisemite and warmongering propaganda to the generation of todays militants and terrorists.

[Moledet]

It's just redicolous to even talk about peace with them, we should start offering them money so they'll leave to Jordan, that's the best solution.

I dont reckon that King Hussein would be too happy with that, considering that his population stands at 50%+ or so Palestinian now!!!
*75% of the Jordanians are so called Palestinians and if he won't let them pass than they'll move to European countries, New Zealand, Canada or Australia.

[Moledet]

The conflict will continue for ever as long as the Palestinians are here, this move of Sharon won't do a thing to help to finish it,

It's talk like that, that keeps it going. What you're proposing is the elimination of the people of the opposing side as the solution to the conflict. I suspect that the Germans talked like this in the beginning also. No matter how bad it gets, you can't let the past make you jaded about proposing and enacting solutions in the present and future. It's what Sharon is trying to do. Give the Palestinians the contested land, and make a wall big enough to keep them on their side of it.
You obviously know nothing about population exchange, a Swedish guy got a nobel prize for peace for doing such a move.

Read and tell me if it won't work:
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/

Hood, it's impossible to make Araffat irrelevant, he is like Ben gurion to the Israelis or like Washington to the Americans, for them he is the funder of a nation.

P.S. No one is doing air raids in Gaza, the IAF is doing assassinations, not air raids and the army is doing operations inside the cities, we don't bomb every square inch like the US did in Afghanistan.
And it works, civilians started to argue with the terrorists and even got killed by them because they didn't allow the terrorists to shoot Qassam rockets from their back yard.
Also, the Hamas is crumbling from all the assassinations, it's a political organization that no one in the Palestinian street know its leaders, and the more famous people in the Hamas don't even dare to show their face, so it lost a big part of its power.

[gilgoul]

Gilgoul , here is what occupation (at list as I see it) means . I wasn't reffering to Gaza as whole , but to the cities (btw , I have spend some time there . You would be surprised that I am lefty as you or even more . But I am not talking to strip as whole . I understood that Hood talked about the city of Gaza itself - I personally when I hear Gaza , I don't think about the entire strip) .

1) It means the cities would have Israeli military governour -which they don't have .

2)Occupation means that they have no Police or military force in their cities - which they have in full arms and uniforms , and they even used to have armored vehicles .

3)Occupation means that we control every entry and exit to their cities , and checkpoints across the cities themselfes . There are checkpoints in Gaza - but they are all Palestinian checkpoints .

4) Occupation means that IDF can move freely inside Gaza - which is not correct , or wasn't correct up until the Kassems started to fall . In my time , there were very strict rules to deviate from the allowed path (I wan't tell exactly which roads where that for obvious reason ) . From time to time , there were little counter strikes , which didn't entered more then 100 metters inside Gaza (the city , again) .

Why I am talking about the Gaza city ? Because of it's proximity to Nezarim , IDF did acted somewhere close to it , and from time to time even entered it .The same could be said about the Rafah - the city is very close to IDF positions , so IDF do act in somewhat more freely manner there .
About the cities of for example Beyt Hanun , we didn't even dreamed to come anyway near it . It was forbidden . What was allowed to access , were strictly for self defence (again , I am sorry that I can't ellaborate what was allowed for IDF to drive near Nezarim , and exactly why) .
I am talking about the era of 2001-2003 . In our days , sence the Kassams strike , IDF entered inside to perform cleansing operation . I can't bellieve that someone in here would say , that it's not the right of IDF , or the right of people of Sderot (or Gorjia as Palestinian millitants say) to live peacefully .
You have to be there to understand ... Yes , they suffered , they were shot upon , but they stoped being occupied sence Oslo .

And finally , what the hell is this movie about , can someone tell me , instead of arguing ?



Lol , I was going to ask the same question, but you see, when not trolled and talking with civilized people, we can have a civilized argument, and that is a real relief, I started to loose faith in this forum sometimes.

I understand the nuances and the acceptable point you make concerning the "military" occupation of the Gaza strip.
Still, we cannot argue that a small portion of the Gaza strip is settled as shown on this MAP

http://img10.exs.cx/img10/5707/gazastrip.jpg
The grey area are Palestinian authority territory, the Yellow to brown are the actual settlements. (source peace now map on the acceptance to evacuation, the lighter the most eager to leave, the brown area in majority refuse to leave (july 2002)
I`m not discussing the legitimacy of this project, but contest it`s practical value as weel as its cost, economically, diplomatically and on the security plan.
About the strategic aproach toward the conflict.
let`s put it like that, my position is, I trust the IDF for it`s operational restraint and it`s capacity to anlyse the situation, so no one will find me among the critics of tsahal, or maybe only for one thing, once in a while it really doesn`t know the job of hasbarah (PR). I support the assasination/liquidation campaign against enemy leaders, and having them duck obviously impaires their operational capacity.
As lng as we try to save innocent lives, but spare no effort to pursue and destroy our ennemies, I dig.
We just have to hope that the politicians will start to do the job we assigned to them, to bring this country security and prosperity.

[hood]

I didn't really understand what the moving to Jordan plan was implying. That the Palestinians would move to Jordan? It seemingly left out that part of the outline.

[Moledet]

I didn't really understand what the moving to Jordan plan was implying. That the Palestinians would move to Jordan? It seemingly left out that part of the outline.

Key principles of the Elon Peace Plan:

Dissolution of the Palestinian Authority

1. Immediate dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, a non-viable entity with no future, whose existence precludes the termination of the conflict.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eradication of terror infrastructure

2. Israel will uproot the Palestinian terror infrastructure. All arms will be collected, incitement will be stopped and all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. Terrorists and their direct supporters will be deported.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recognition and Development of Jordan as the Palestinian State

3. Israel, the United States and the international community will recognize the Kingdom of Jordan as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Jordan will once again recognize itself as the Palestinian nation-state.

In the context of a regional economic development program, Israel, the United States and the international community will put forth a concerted effort for the long-term development of Jordan, to rehabilitate its economy and enable it to absorb a limited number of refugees within its borders.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israeli sovereignty over Judea, Samaria and Gaza

4. Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the West Bank). The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rehabilitation of refugees and completion of population exchange

5. Israel, the United States and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace and normalization
6. After implementation of the above stages, Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict terminated. Both sides will work to normalize peaceful relations between all parties in the region.

Gilgoul, that's one lying map you've got there, the most of the gray area is not a Palestinian terrain, but an Israeli terrain, the Palestinains has a very small terrain in Gaza strip.
Also, even the police admits that there will be tens of thousands and more likely over hundred thousand that will come to protect the settlements.
So you gonna tell me that most of the people wish to leave? Heh, the only place that want to leave is a half Jewish half christian settlement that don't want to live there, the rest are eager to stay. But i'm not surprised, I already got to know the "Shalm achshav" guys too well, they are manipulative liers just like the arabs.

[Nizark]

why doesn't jordan annex the west bank and put the trained jordanian troops in charge with the palestinians as backup.

[Moledet]

why doesn't jordan annex the west bank and put the trained jordanian troops in charge with the palestinians as backup.
Why should it risk it men for a conflict that is between Israel and some arabs? Also, they don't want to look like they are the rulers of the Palestinains or that they can control them, the royal family is not Palestinian and they have some problems with them, but with some economical support and good education the Jordanian royal family won't be in danger.

[gilgoul]

I didn't really understand what the moving to Jordan plan was implying. That the Palestinians would move to Jordan? It seemingly left out that part of the outline.

Key principles of the Elon Peace Plan:

Dissolution of the Palestinian Authority

1. Immediate dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, a non-viable entity with no future, whose existence precludes the termination of the conflict.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eradication of terror infrastructure

2. Israel will uproot the Palestinian terror infrastructure. All arms will be collected, incitement will be stopped and all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. Terrorists and their direct supporters will be deported.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recognition and Development of Jordan as the Palestinian State

3. Israel, the United States and the international community will recognize the Kingdom of Jordan as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Jordan will once again recognize itself as the Palestinian nation-state.

In the context of a regional economic development program, Israel, the United States and the international community will put forth a concerted effort for the long-term development of Jordan, to rehabilitate its economy and enable it to absorb a limited number of refugees within its borders.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israeli sovereignty over Judea, Samaria and Gaza

4. Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the West Bank). The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rehabilitation of refugees and completion of population exchange

5. Israel, the United States and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace and normalization
6. After implementation of the above stages, Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict terminated. Both sides will work to normalize peaceful relations between all parties in the region.

Gilgoul, that's one lying map you've got there, the gray area is not a Palestinian terrain, but an Israeli terrain, the Palestinains has a very small terrain in Gaza strip.
Also, even the police admits that there will be tens of thousands and more likely over hundred thousand that will come to protect the settlements.
So you gonna tell me that most of the people wish to leave? Heh, the only place that want to leave is a half Jewish half christian settlement that don't want to live there, the rest are eager to stay. But i'm not surprised, I already got to know the "Shalm achshav" guys too well, they are manipulative liers just like the arabs.


Moledet, please give us a break with this extrem right wing solution of a "transfert" of population, No one in Israel beside ta few crazy people seriously think of this madman plan.
So please spare us this kind of argument, especially on an international forum.
Your naivety is somewhat disapointing, and the "plan" of a racist extrem right winger is no more than wishfull thinking and the expression of a political wing that uses demcracy for non democratic goals, just like Asmi Bishara (Israeli arab demaguogue member of the parliament).
This country still have friends around the world who understand that we function on a democratic base and respect human dignity and human rights as much as the situation allows us to do. Quite honestly, I wouldn`t like to live in a state run by Mr Elon and his intolerant and bigot clique.

[Moledet]

I didn't really understand what the moving to Jordan plan was implying. That the Palestinians would move to Jordan? It seemingly left out that part of the outline.

Key principles of the Elon Peace Plan:

Dissolution of the Palestinian Authority

1. Immediate dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, a non-viable entity with no future, whose existence precludes the termination of the conflict.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eradication of terror infrastructure

2. Israel will uproot the Palestinian terror infrastructure. All arms will be collected, incitement will be stopped and all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. Terrorists and their direct supporters will be deported.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recognition and Development of Jordan as the Palestinian State

3. Israel, the United States and the international community will recognize the Kingdom of Jordan as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Jordan will once again recognize itself as the Palestinian nation-state.

In the context of a regional economic development program, Israel, the United States and the international community will put forth a concerted effort for the long-term development of Jordan, to rehabilitate its economy and enable it to absorb a limited number of refugees within its borders.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israeli sovereignty over Judea, Samaria and Gaza

4. Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the West Bank). The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rehabilitation of refugees and completion of population exchange

5. Israel, the United States and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace and normalization
6. After implementation of the above stages, Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict terminated. Both sides will work to normalize peaceful relations between all parties in the region.

Gilgoul, that's one lying map you've got there, the gray area is not a Palestinian terrain, but an Israeli terrain, the Palestinains has a very small terrain in Gaza strip.
Also, even the police admits that there will be tens of thousands and more likely over hundred thousand that will come to protect the settlements.
So you gonna tell me that most of the people wish to leave? Heh, the only place that want to leave is a half Jewish half christian settlement that don't want to live there, the rest are eager to stay. But i'm not surprised, I already got to know the "Shalm achshav" guys too well, they are manipulative liers just like the arabs.


Moledet, please give us a break with this extrem right wing solution of a "transfert" of population, No one in Israel beside ta few crazy people seriously think of this madman plan.
So please spare us this kind of argument, especially on an international forum.
Your naivety is somewhat disapointing, and the "plan" of a racist extrem right winger is no more than wishfull thinking and the expression of a political wing that uses demcracy for non democratic goals, just like Asmi Bishara (Israeli arab demaguogue member of the parliament).
This country still have friends around the world who understand that we function on a democratic base and respect human dignity and human rights as much as the situation allows us to do. Quite honestly, I wouldn`t like to live in a state run by Mr Elon and his intolerant and bigot clique.
First of all, Elon didn't write this plan, the accords of the plan were written by Ghandi RIP, if you think that he was racist I suggest you to read this:
http://www.gandi.org.il/Site/Articles/Articles.asp?docID=115&ccatID=15
Also read this and tell me if it's not realistic to do a transfer:
http://www.gandi.org.il/Site/Articles/Articles.asp?docID=26&ccatID=15

And some polls for you that show you that you are totaly wrong about the public support:
http://www.moledet.org.il/english/public.html
And I can tell you that you are right that in the older generation things are diffrent, they still believe in peace, but the younger people are almost all in the far right wing and they do support this plan and the kids that are now 5 or 10 years old and they see terror attacks on TV or even get hurt by some will also support this plan when they'll get older. One day after many peaceful times and intifidas you'll see this plan rolling.

P.S. You don't support the transfer of Palestinians by choice, but you do support transfering Jews by force from one place to another. That's pretty funny, don't you think?
Too bad that you have such a blind hate towards your brothers while to the arabs you have an approach of, "trying to keep their rights as much as possible", what about the settlers rights? Why do you support uprooting with force thousands of Jews out of their homes while you are against giving the Palestinians a choice to start a new life that won't end up in another war?
I bet that when you watched the the bad apple from the paratroopers hitting a Palestinian civilian that was in a barrier you thought:"OMG, what an idiot, what is he doing? Has he gone completely mad?", while when you watched the pictures of the police using brutal force to move settlers (and even kids) you tought:"Go police, kick their ass", am I right?

GrimReaper, thanks a lot, I appreciate your post.

[GrimReaper]

Moledet, please give us a break with this extrem right wing solution of a "transfert" of population, No one in Israel beside ta few crazy people seriously think of this madman plan.
So please spare us this kind of argument, especially on an international forum.
Your naivety is somewhat disapointing, and the "plan" of a racist extrem right winger is no more than wishfull thinking and the expression of a political wing that uses demcracy for non democratic goals, just like Asmi Bishara (Israeli arab demaguogue member of the parliament).
This country still have friends around the world who understand that we function on a democratic base and respect human dignity and human rights as much as the situation allows us to do. Quite honestly, I wouldn`t like to live in a state run by Mr Elon and his intolerant and bigot clique.

I really tried to stay away, but your comment rally annoyed me.
Why should "Moledet" be scorned for posting a solution he believes in which is more valid then any of the non-planned limp-along half-assed stupid hair brained ideas that every other government and political parties from meretz to likud have brought upon Israel in the last ten years?
Mr. Elon and his friends are bigoted and racist? Well, first, they are less racist and bigoted than half the left parties that mask it by patriarchaly condescending , and anyway the country you live in, is racist and bigotry based.
Bigotry is wrong when living in a normal place and then acting against someone on your own twisted views, not when living in a country which is based on a hundred years of ethno-religious conflict.

Just because you are accustomed to moron politicians trudging along with "long-lasting" plans that only plan until next month, don't berate other people. "Moledet" and moledet followers may be naive in thinking their plan can be implemented, but you and most Israelis are naive in thinking that anything else but actual physical separation between people for at least three generation can lead to actual peace and harmony.

If leaders in the past were a bit smarter, they should have either annexed all the land in 67 and given Israeli citizenship to all Arabs, or return the land and people back to Egypt and Jordan. Instead they idiotically created a people who fight for the same land that you inhabit,and a state of mind the cannot be changed,and there is no other reason for the conflict and there is no middle ground, no long-lasting or even interim solution that will solve it other then removing it's foundation.

Finally if someone who prefers choosing an ideology that has no chance of being implemented is naive, that it's better to be a live ideologist that keeps on fighting for survival then a pragmatist that goes blindfolded towards the cliff's edge.

[flickme]

Oy, why did this have to be a big argument. How about trying to stay on subject and talk about the doc.

[Argyll]

because such topics never stay on topic,and the same stuff gets brought up time and time again :roll:

[gilgoul]

Ripper, moledet, I`ll be glad to keep discussing with you on PM, not here anymore, because once again we drifted (and I share a part of responsibility in ths loss of focus :oops: )

[glamwar]

I saw this documentary.

It was very well done IMO.

What I see in this conflict is kids who have thier homes bulldozed by the IDF in order to root out tunnels. These children and their families are left with no home, and there seem to be no attempts made to accomodate them.
That alone would make ME a militant!

I'm not saying that I agree with either side on this.
I'm just saying that the motivation for Palestinian kids to turn into militants is incredibly obvious!

If someone comes and bulldozes your home for any reason, I think it's logical to assume that you'd have some sort of hatred toward those people.

What was amazing to me in that documentary was to see Isreali tanks shooting mounted weapons to try and deter a bunch of grade school aged kids from throwing rocks at machines that are hardened against machinegune fire and IED's!
What's the point? The rocks can't do anything to a friggin Merkava, so why do the tank crews feel the need to antagonize the children even further?

I think that there's some attitude among IDF guys that a dead palestinian child is "one less future militant".
And although that may bear some actual truth, that sort of response does nothing but propogate the whole thing.

It just seems pretty clear that IDF guys aren't ****in around!
If some foreign peace advocate, or brit journalist or whatever wants to play games with them, they're gonna roll over top of em with a bulldozer that has a huge middle finger painted on the front grill.

And to me it makes even less sense, seeing as to how the roots of all this are based in fiction that millions interpret as truth!
So in essence, people are dying because of some 5,000 year old fairy tale that few have the scruples to accept for what it is.

It sometimes makes you wonder if any of this is even real!!
Because if it is, it's pretty ****in stupid!

[Moledet]

I saw this documentary.

It was very well done IMO.

What I see in this conflict is kids who have thier homes bulldozed by the IDF in order to root out tunnels. These children and their families are left with no home, and there seem to be no attempts made to accomodate them.
That alone would make ME a militant!

I'm not saying that I agree with either side on this.
I'm just saying that the motivation for Palestinian kids to turn into militants is incredibly obvious!

If someone comes and bulldozes your home for any reason, I think it's logical to assume that you'd have some sort of hatred toward those people.

What was amazing to me in that documentary was to see Isreali tanks shooting mounted weapons to try and deter a bunch of grade school aged kids from throwing rocks at machines that are hardened against machinegune fire and IED's!
What's the point? The rocks can't do anything to a friggin Merkava, so why do the tank crews feel the need to antagonize the children even further?

I think that there's some attitude among IDF guys that a dead palestinian child is "one less future militant".
And although that may bear some actual truth, that sort of response does nothing but propogate the whole thing.

It just seems pretty clear that IDF guys aren't f*** around!
If some foreign peace advocate, or brit journalist or whatever wants to play games with them, they're gonna roll over top of em with a bulldozer that has a huge middle finger painted on the front grill.

And to me it makes even less sense, seeing as to how the roots of all this are based in fiction that millions interpret as truth!
So in essence, people are dying because of some 5,000 year old fairy tale that few have the scruples to accept for what it is.

It sometimes makes you wonder if any of this is even real!!
Because if it is, it's pretty f*** stupid!
If that's what the "documantry" made you think than I guess that it's pretty ****ed up.

There are two effects to seeing yuor home being bulldozed:
A. You get mad.
B. You think that you shouldn't disobey the law.
The second one is stronger and many people decided that they are sick of thses militants that get them into trouble and they started fighting with them. About a month a go a 15 years old Palestinian teen tried to stop the militants from shooting Qassam rockets from his back yard, but he was shot in the head by them.
The only reason that people will turn into militants is the propoganda and their religious leaders preaching (they preach in TV). Just as an example: People in Egypt have a lower living standard than the Palestinians, why don't the Egyptians become militants? Beacuse it's all about education.

The soldiers aren't shooting on the kids, but near the "kids" (I guess they were mostly 15, 16 or 17 years old), they shoot near them becuse they don't want them to approach towards the tank, because if they will approach the tank and will climb on it they will be able to take the machinge guns (by loosing few screws) or even to use them while they are on the tank or just to steal the ammo.

If you'd see how these maniaks ("peace activists") and Journalists behave you'd understand why some of them die. They suddenly pop infront of troops, they fight with troops or in case of journalists they don't listen to the army orders just to get a better picture.

The conflict isn't based on fiction, it's based on over 1000 dead Israelis and tens of thousands wounded Israelis.

[Argyll]

I saw this documentary.

It was very well done IMO.

What I see in this conflict is kids who have thier homes bulldozed by the IDF in order to root out tunnels. These children and their families are left with no home, and there seem to be no attempts made to accomodate them.
That alone would make ME a militant!

I'm not saying that I agree with either side on this.
I'm just saying that the motivation for Palestinian kids to turn into militants is incredibly obvious!

If someone comes and bulldozes your home for any reason, I think it's logical to assume that you'd have some sort of hatred toward those people.

What was amazing to me in that documentary was to see Isreali tanks shooting mounted weapons to try and deter a bunch of grade school aged kids from throwing rocks at machines that are hardened against machinegune fire and IED's!
What's the point? The rocks can't do anything to a friggin Merkava, so why do the tank crews feel the need to antagonize the children even further?

I think that there's some attitude among IDF guys that a dead palestinian child is "one less future militant".
And although that may bear some actual truth, that sort of response does nothing but propogate the whole thing.

It just seems pretty clear that IDF guys aren't f*** around!
If some foreign peace advocate, or brit journalist or whatever wants to play games with them, they're gonna roll over top of em with a bulldozer that has a huge middle finger painted on the front grill.

And to me it makes even less sense, seeing as to how the roots of all this are based in fiction that millions interpret as truth!
So in essence, people are dying because of some 5,000 year old fairy tale that few have the scruples to accept for what it is.

It sometimes makes you wonder if any of this is even real!!
Because if it is, it's pretty f*** stupid!
If that's what the "documantry" made you think than I guess that it's pretty f*** up.

There are two effects to seeing yuor home being bulldozed:
A. You get mad.
B. You think that you shouldn't disobey the law.
The second one is stronger and many people decided that they are sick of thses militants that get them into trouble and they started fighting with them. About a month a go a 15 years old Palestinian teen tried to stop the militants from shooting Qassam rockets from his back yard, but he was shot in the head by them.
The only reason that people will turn into militants is the propoganda and their religious leaders preaching (they preach in TV). Just as an example: People in Egypt have a lower living standard than the Palestinians, why don't the Egyptians become militants? Beacuse it's all about education.

The soldiers aren't shooting on the kids, but near the "kids" (I guess they were mostly 15, 16 or 17 years old), they shoot near them becuse they don't want them to approach towards the tank, because if they will approach the tank and will climb on it they will be able to take the machinge guns (by loosing few screws) or even to use them while they are on the tank or just to steal the ammo.

If you'd see how these maniaks ("peace activists") and Journalists behave you'd understand why some of them die. They suddenly pop infront of troops, they fight with troops or in case of journalists they don't listen to the army orders just to get a better picture.

The conflict isn't based on fiction, it's based on over 1000 dead Israelis and tens of thousands wounded Israelis.

STOP RIGHT THERE!!!...you're seriously overstepping the mark with this one,and the comments you've just made.
If I lived in a block of flats,with 25-30 other families,and went about my own business and never broke the Law.....(who'se Law would this be,you said it was not occupied,if it comes under Israeli law it's occupied!!),and came home to find the whole freekin block raised to the ground,because of a neighbour..............you bet your bottom dollar I'd be pissed,I'd go even further and state I'd be fcuking livid.how would you feel if it happened to you?,you came home and found that the whole tenement was gone,all your belonging,everything you possesed in your life,all because your neighbour broke the Law!!...............get fcuking real here Moledat,you're showing extremism and prejudice with this statement.