So there isn`t antisemitism in france?

[gilgoul]

sorry guys, I feel bad knowing this thread will end up in flame, but I`m kind of pissed, I knew the place and the people, who handded food to poors and offered day shelter for lone and old people, the kind of target hihgly sensitive and acceptable.

I feel kind of sad, becasue despite all the declarations and statements, nothing has been done to protect this place, so what has to be done, create a jewish militia thats going to do the job the police can`t do?
Go and mob symbolic places of the extreme right wing and militant islam in France, and therefore staring civil disturbance?
I feel bad about what I see, maybe because I knew the place and the people who went there, jews refugees from turkey, speaking ladino (their mother tongue, since they came from family who fled spain in 1492), for the most elders.
For those who don`t know Paris, the rue popincourt connects the neighborhood of belleville (20 eme) to the 11th district at the level of couronne metro station, it is known more for it`s mosque and one of the oldest and most impportant islamic book store, where you`ll find without any problem the elders of zion protocol, as well as books in praise of bin laden and Hamas.
People keep telling me that there`s not any problem, but I start to doubt their word.
People keep telling me that france isn`t antisemite, so who burns out synaguogues and social centers?
People keep telling me that police works hard, but where was the police during this fire (there`s a police station rue des couronnes, 500 meters from there).
People keep telling me that my family shouldn`t worry, despite the swastikas on their door, the letters confirming their "judaity" and their near fate. Despite the car of my neighbours burnt (what a coincidence, he`s a jew too).
So, dear people, please take your figenrs of your assholes and start prooving yourselves, instead of telling me that there is no antisemitism in France, that I`m paranoid, that in any way I always accuse france and so on.
I`m a little upset on this one, so forgive the tone and please don`t make a flame of this one

here are the links

http://www.leparisien.fr/home/info/faitjour/article.htm?articleid=241108919

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1093145205149

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/467760.html

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=6037001

[big80a2]

yeh this stuff is getting nasty...
aswel as in other european country's
this need to be stopt .... first they bash on Israel than again on jews and whats next??

[Moledet]

As one French Jew said:"It's hard to be a Jew in France".

The other thing that pissed me off today is the neo-nazi parade in Germany.

[SeanAshi]

To bad the Jewish Defense League wasn't there......it would have been intresting.

[Fargin]

The world is a pretty grim place these days.

[n.ignomo]

I'm french and i can tell you this is a real issue. There isn't any week without any anti-jew act. And these bastard can't make a proper staviska. One of them has been arrested for 3 acts he did himself, but some are keeping the work of degradation. Now most of the anti-jews tensions are from muslim young men and women. Israelo-palestinian conflict is really, really strong in our ghettos, and it reflects much, particularly at school.

[henksmoeder]

Why is it that I NEVER hear something about anti-muslimism on this board when a mosque gets burned.

[Milkman]

Why is it that I NEVER hear something about anti-muslimism on this board when a mosque gets burned.
Do you have links NOT related to the burning of Mosques in former Yugoslavia?

[Moledet]

I'm french and i can tell you this is a real issue. There isn't any week without any anti-jew act. And these bastard can't make a proper staviska. One of them has been arrested for 3 acts he did himself, but some are keeping the work of degradation. Now most of the anti-jews tensions are from muslim young men and women. Israelo-palestinian conflict is really, really strong in our ghettos, and it reflects much, particularly at school.
Stopping biased reporting in your TV channels can help, that and arresting TV stars like that comedian that say many antisemitc comments.
Also, legaslating a law that give at least 10 years in Jail for anyone that will be a part of a racist incident can help a lot.

In schools the same thing, if someone hurts a student because of his race/religion he should get kicked out of school because that's not the way students should act or just make schools only for Muslims like we have here, it solves a lot of conflicts.

[Moledet]

Why is it that I NEVER hear something about anti-muslimism on this board when a mosque gets burned.
You are here from 27 of April this year, give me a link for a mosque that got burnt/destroyed this year or even last year (i'm not talking about places where there are wars, but only on peaceful places).

[big80a2]

Why is it that I NEVER hear something about anti-muslimism on this board when a mosque gets burned.

because muslims are not a minorety....
when a local church got burned in my town nobody cryed out loud.
But thats more because it's an act that isn't repeting it's self

also it wasn't a synagoge that got burned it was a community center doing good work.
It's always the jews don't you see?

[Javehn]

or just make schools only for Muslims like we have here, it solves a lot of conflicts.

Then you should visit some of our colleges or universities , dude . You will have an enlightement (like I had my first year :lol: ) :P

Hear about College "Mustakbal" (=Mihlelet Haatid) ? rofl

[Moledet]

or just make schools only for Muslims like we have here, it solves a lot of conflicts.

Then you should visit some of our colleges or universities , dude . You will have an enlightement (like I had my first year :lol: ) :P

Hear about College "Mustakbal" (=Mihlelet Haatid) ? rofl
I know about universities. I was talking about high schools even though also here there are some high schools that have Muslims and Jews, but the Muslims never do anything bad to the Jews because they are a minority.

[radon]

Gilgoul who do you think is anti-jewish in France? edit: I mean the non-muslim population and so on

[StarvingStudent47]

People keep telling me that police works hard, but where was the police during this fire (there`s a police station rue des couronnes, 500 meters from there).


I find this the most troubling.

For those who say that there's no problems in France (*ahem* Loco), what on earth do you call this? An accident? An act of God?

[Gatling]

GILGOUL, You obviously chosed to emigrate from France to Israel , for your own reasons, but let me remind you that 5oo to 6oo ooo jews still live in France. These acts whether comitted by Nth Africans or skinheads are nothing but criminal acts and are unfortunately neither unique to France nor new. The jews gilgoul have been in France since anyone can remember and at least the ones I know are ready to stand their grounds if challenged inTHEIRcountry. PS: I must admit although your little agenda of settling scores with France for whatever reason ain't fooling me,I wonder if it's your fellow jew sympathy that you seek or the french hater's

[SeanAshi]

Then you should visit some of our colleges or universities , dude . You will have an enlightement (like I had my first yeaUniversity of California at Berkley is one of those schools, I"m not saying all hate right wingers Bush Israel Jews so on...but most do at that school do. They pretty much told President Bush's wife Laura to Fook Off that she wasn't welcomed there.

[henksmoeder]

Why is it that I NEVER hear something about anti-muslimism on this board when a mosque gets burned.
You are here from 27 of April this year, give me a link for a mosque that got burnt/destroyed this year or even last year (i'm not talking about places where there are wars, but only on peaceful places).

You asked for it: Read the bottom paragraph, it happened in march.
http://cbs2.com/topstories/topstories_story_227120124.html

[Zarathustra]

To bad the Jewish Defense League wasn't there......it would have been intresting.


there are many "jewish league" in france, not exactly the same as the JDL but the LICRA is there, the "CRIF" and many others...
There are some other private organizations like the "Ligue de Defense Juive ( forbidden in Israel ) and the BETAR for example, but it is the extrem right of the jewish pollitical party, some jews don't like them because of their extremism...
about what is happend today, i don't think those guys were "neo-nazi", because the "swastiskas" were really strange... and a real "nazi" would never write something like that, that's look more like an act by arabs, I'm not sure but i think and i know this quarter of paris, many arabs immigrants live there...

[Argyll]

Why on earth bring this topic up if you kew it would turn into a flame war?
Already I'm seeing the signs,and they're not good.
You by all accounts chose to leave France,so is this particular post effecting you directly,perhaps family or whatever?I've learned the hard way,that as soon as you disagree with some Israeli's ,the next thing is that you're "Anti -Semetic",or a "typical European"......and I detest this manner,as do a lot of others here,as soon as any mention of the Israel/Palestine conflict gets mentioned ...........it turns ugly,real ugly.

I personally feel that threads like this should be personal issues,and not something aired in a Military forum........it has nothing to do with Militaryphotos.......same goes for the Political threads,as they just turn nasty,and stuff gets taken out of context........I've always maintained that if you have a debate,then you have to have equal representation on both sides,improbable here....
I'll keep an eye on this,it's fast tracking to get locked!

[gilgoul]

GILGOUL, You obviously chosed to emigrate from France to Israel , for your own reasons, but let me remind you that 5oo to 6oo ooo jews still live in France. These acts whether comitted by Nth Africans or skinheads are nothing but criminal acts and are unfortunately neither unique to France nor new. The jews gilgoul have been in France since anyone can remember and at least the ones I know are ready to stand their grounds if challenged inTHEIRcountry. PS: I must admit although your little agenda of settling scores with France for whatever reason ain't fooling me,I wonder if it's your fellow jew sympathy that you seek or the french hater's

Those acts, if not exclusive to france, are now pretty comon there, and most of the cases come from there, and stay assured that i have no agenda concerning France or my "fellow jews sympathy", BTW, the tone of this remark, just as your systematic hostility sounds more than suspect to me.
I just find funny that everytime the subject is brought I get the same kind of personal attacks, so once and for all, the reasons I came to Israel are my own, after having fullfilled my citizen duties in France, I don`t know how many of you big patriots can pretend to the same, so I`m not taking remarks about my suposed "France bashing" anymore, trying to deligitimate me doesn`t bring any change in the debate, just shows once again this ostrich tendency of denial and the aggressivity ensuing. If you are not feeling well about the subject, simply don`t join in.
BTW, I didn`t know you were a fan of the Betar, because it`s the kind of organisation that stands for it`s ground.
As for the french haters, I despise them as much as I despise any kind of racism and discrimination, and if they find here some pleasure, it`s in spite of me, but once again, it is your responsability to takle the problem, it is the responsability of your media and governement to work on the issue. If it means to put a cop behind every sensitive site, then do it, if this means doing serious intelligence work, do it. Because what are you waiting for? people to get killed? jewish comunities to fight back?
A lot of people like my parents aren`t going to move out soon, they love france. Does it mean they feel good now? Does it mean they aren`t affraid?
They are affraid, they are bitter, because they have the feeling that nobody really cares.
Those arsons and desecrations receive today a completely disproportionate international media coverage because France has today this poor image of a country that lets antisemitic acts be comitted almost daily. I know it`s exagerated somtimes, but my critics and bitterness are out of love for this country, because I don`t want to see it become what it is becoming. Officials can pay all the lip service they want, thats the new tactic, denouncing, pretending to be shocked and angry, after the years of silence, are coming the times of noise, but what is done on the ground to stop this problem that dirties the name of France?

[BlackRain]

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,97205_6,00.jpg

Caption: Police officers outside the center

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,86080_6,00.jpg

Caption: Swastikas and other Nazi symbols are seen on headstones at a Jewish cemetery in Herrlisheim, eastern France, on April 30, 2004.

The number of anti-Semitic acts committed in the first half of 2004 has soared, according to interior ministry statistics, with 135 acts of physical violence against Jews and 95 against north African and other ethnic groups.

Incidents this month included a swastika painted on the ground in front of the Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris, and swastikas and anti-Semitic messages painted on 60 Jewish graves in Lyon allegedly by a neo-Nazi Frenchman who turned himself into police.

Two other Jewish cemeteries, a World War II monument to Jewish soldiers and a synagogue have also been targeted for anti-Semitic graffiti in separate attacks earlier this year.

There have been a few serious assaults. In October last year, a rabbi was knocked to the ground by assailants as he went to a synagogue; in July last year, students at a Jewish school in Paris were beaten with sticks and bars; and in April 2002, 14 Jewish footballers were set upon by a masked gang wielding bars and sticks.

Source: http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1433_A_1304272_1_A,00.html

[Argyll]

Gilgoul,do you consider yourself French...or Israeli?
From what I can also gather is that this problem and behaviour is not just isolated to France,it's springing up all over Europe,it's a culture clash and there's not much anyone can do to stem it.

[BlackRain]

Gilgoul,do you consider yourself French...or Israeli?
From what I can also gather is that this problem and behaviour is not just isolated to France,it's springing up all over Europe,it's a culture clash and there's not much anyone can do to stem it.

I disagree. There are ways to curtail these problems.

1) Encourage new immigrants to become part of the culture rather than be walled off in ghettos.

2) Require immigrants to become citizens are be deported.

3) Only allow legal immigrants to have access to state welfare, education, and other benefits. Liberal benefit programs discourage a strong work ethic (i.e. you either sink or swim by the sweat of your own brow not by a handout from the state).

Without a plan to make these immigrants part of society, you end of with Balkanized neighborhood scattered around the fringes of society stuck in poverty and ignorance.

[gilgoul]

Gilgoul,do you consider yourself French...or Israeli?
From what I can also gather is that this problem and behaviour is not just isolated to France,it's springing up all over Europe,it's a culture clash and there's not much anyone can do to stem it.

To put it simply, I am Israeli of french origin, that is funny, because here I`m French all the way, and in france I`m considered Israeli all the way.
I might be in between, loving humus as much as a good pont Leveque cheese and wouldn`t be able to survive without a calvados once in a while.
As for the question of allegiance, it`s a tough one, but ultimately, Israel is the country that cares for me as a jew, even if you`ll hardly find more atheist than me. It`s tough because I was born and raised in France, love this country and support it`s rugby team (the only collective sport Im` into), because I served it with pride, but the historical odds are too strong, and my family history was too dramatic to make me ignore this permanent fear I have to see it change. I know it`s a bore for a lot of people, and a lot of french tried to amend their sins, that a lot of courageous french saved my parents and thousands others fleeing the vichy regime and the Nazis, hid them while others, policemen, militiamen sent my grand parents and their family to death.
My grand father, despite being a POW (he voluntarily joined the army before the war) knew this fate. This duality is hardly explainable, to put it simply, Israel is the only country where being called a dirty jew would just mean that your personal hygiene needs improvement. I heard the other meaning too many times back in the hexagone.
More, I got to love the mentality here, the dynamism of the society, the warmth and the slightly obnoxious attitude of people here. I love the pionner spirit, the feeling that everything is still to be done or improved, the hope for peace, but the determination in fight. Does that make a "traitor" to France, I dearly hope that no one would think that.
If some think so, it is their own problem, not mine.

[Argyll]

Thanks for sharing theat mate....now I get a better understanding on where you're coming from on this issue

[SeanAshi]

I thought it was illegal in Germany for neo-nazi's to show swastiskas in public? or anything todo with nazi Germany

[kinghk]

I thought it was illegal in Germany for neo-nazi's to show swastiskas in public? or anything todo with nazi Germany

It is.

Odd, considering the fact that it is legal to walk around with the Soviet flag and a picture of Stalin or any other communist dictator/massmurder.

[Kilgor]

I thought it was illegal in Germany for neo-nazi's to show swastiskas in public? or anything todo with nazi Germany

It is.

Odd, considering the fact that it is legal to walk around with the Soviet flag and a picture of Stalin or any other communist dictator/massmurder.

History being written by the victors again.

Even though stalins body count was way higher than hitlers, he was a naughty boy in comparision

[SeanAshi]

Where did Stalins body end up? I know they had him near Lenin but later moved him.

[Kilgor]

His body was placed near the Kremlin wall, half-hidden by trees.

Even the famous soviet actor who played stalin "vanished" without trace.

[Loco]

I regret this act of course. Personally, I never said there ins´t antisemites(anti-jews and anti-arabs) in Europe, we have bad people here, but like in anyother place, and even so basically europe, the western europe I know, it´s still one of the best places on earth for living in freedom. Last week ETA terrorists put bombs in three different towns along north coast of Spain, with some serious damage in any case although only slightly injured people, well, still so you can live where I live been free, happy and safe here, with the only exception to some people in basque country, but everyday we´re winning the battle.
About jews from Turkey living in France, they aren´t refugees. Turkey it´s a democracy, with many defects but it is, it has religoius freedom, and regarding the jews they are wellcome in Turkey since the times of Soliman The Magnific, and today it´s well know Turkey has many links with Israel, including close military cooperation. People can travel, and can emigrate because of economic reasons. Saying that jews in France inmigrated from Turkey are refugees it´s malicious and disloyal with Turkey and beginning a problem that it doesn´t exist.

[n.ignomo]

Blackrain, i thank you for your " you only have to..." solutions. Our ministers themselves make annoucements about this, pupils are getting kicked out of school and laws are being made. But this isn't that easy to encourage new immigrants to become part of the culture as you said. If you go on our "cités" (ghettos) you see algerian and morocco flags, and they consider their country as maghreb, not France.
Please don't think we just have to do this or that to solve the problem, it is much more complicated thant that.

[Olybrius]

End of the story:
The culprit is a 52 year old jew who was dismissed and wanted to take revenge.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3226,36-377138,0.html

[Zarathustra]

End of the story:
The culprit is a 52 year old jew who was dismissed and wanted to take revenge.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3226,36-377138,0.html


Yeah, this is not the first time that an attack against the jews like that seems strange in france, especially after the false attack of a young girl with his baby a couple of weeks ago, in a train...

[Umm-Qasr]

Why is it that I NEVER hear something about anti-muslimism on this board when a mosque gets burned.
You are here from 27 of April this year, give me a link for a mosque that got burnt/destroyed this year or even last year (i'm not talking about places where there are wars, but only on peaceful places).What about all violence that took place after 9/11 in europe which was directed at the muslim community there?

"68 gevallen van anti-islamitisch geweld in 2002, met een relatief hoog aantal (20) gevallen van mishandeling. Daarmee blijft anti-islamitisch geweld wel de grootste categorie van racistisch geweld, wanneer gekeken wordt naar de etniciteit van de slachtoffers [8]"

http://www.lbr.nl/racisme*******age/2e-extreme_racistische_uitingen.html

In the Netherlands only 68 cases of anti-muslim violence. Add up the cases in the rest of europe ...

[Internet]

..

[Loco]

________________________________________________
Edited: I see it just was posted yesterday: http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3226,36-377225,0.html
edited: ok,

[Bacilluspolymyxa]

To bad the Jewish Defense League wasn't there......it would have been intresting.
They are and are a little more pro-active than their US brethern who do nothing but moan and complain and when they do actually do something it usually goes wrong and fools like Irv Rubin kill themselves in prison because they cannot face the consequences of their actions. :lol: