Carbine vs Rifle

[hoganshero]

This may seem like a simple question to most of you but what is the difference which has some weapons being defined as a rifle and others as a carbine? Is it simple barrel length; if so what length gets you a carbine and what lengths get you a rifle?

[REMOV]

This may seem like a simple question to most of you but what is the difference which has some weapons being defined as a rifle and others as a carbine? Is it simple barrel length; if so what length gets you a carbine and what lengths get you a rifle?It's the matter of agreement. In general carbines are lighter and smaller (i.e. their dimensions) than rifles (or assault rifles). So they have not only shorter barrels but often different, light buttstocks (often collapsible) and lack of some components that the full-lenght rifles had (e.g. they cannot fire rifle-grenades). One additional thing - owing to short barrel - the carabines have relatively limited fire range.

[Phantom]

since REMOV didn't say it. A Carbine is a version of a rifle like the m16 for instance, that has been shortened, basically, like REMOV said, the barrel is shortened, and the stock becomes adjustable so that you can adjust the length more accurately.

can we get a list of carbines?

[warGOD]

Oke, but what about the M1 .30 M1? Is that a shorter version of another weapon too? If so, wich one?

[Phantom]

the m1 carbine as far as i know, is just a folding stock

[REMOV]

Oke, but what about the M1 .30 M1? Is that a shorter version of another weapon too?No, it isn't. But M1 Carbine was compared with M1 Garand - a full lenght rifle, so the name fits. It was lighter, smaller and fires a shorter range than his big brother, furthermore uses weaker ammunition - an intermediate round.

[REMOV]

the m1 carbine as far as i know, is just a folding stockAFAIK only one version of M1 Carbine has folding stock - M1A1 Carbine.
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/images/m1acrbn.jpg

[hoganshero]

Thanks for the info. So I gather a carbine is a carbine because the manufacturer says it is and no-one disagrees lol. the reason I ask is that when I was a part of the Canadian reserves we were already using the C7 rifle however the C1(FN fal) was referenced as a carbine. I had thought that the FN was a larger weapon and that the term carbine had something to do with the fire selector switch... hence my request for clarification.

[Phantom]

look, a carbine is a smaller, more compact version of the original weapon, compacted being the main word. that's all there is

[GazB]

From memory (so don't shoot me if wrong) it was originally a shortened version of a standard rifle especially intended to be used by cavalry. Early rifles tended to have very long barrels that were awkward to handle and fire from horseback. Especially muzzle loaded weapons were difficult to reload if their barrels were long.
Obviously as cavalry went out of fashion (thanks to MGs and artillery etc) the shorter lighter handier carbines didn't disappear and were often carried by officers or non-combat troops, or military policemen etc etc.
Because the carbine was a shortened version of the standard rifle there were economies of production, logistic supply (ie same ammo and some parts), and economy of training.
The modern practise of producing short barrel versions of assault rifles to use in situations where previously only SMGs were available is something relatively new. Russian terminology for assault rifles was interchangable for SMGs anyway. (PPSh and other Soviet weapons the west would call SMGs were called machine pistols in the Soviet Union due to their use of Pistol rounds. AK series weapons were termed submachineguns or automatic rifles (ie Avtomats) or carbines so terminology is really very blurred.

(REMOV... lets not start a long discussion about this... I know what you think on the matter and believe you know what I think too.)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Firstly, apologies if I partially repeat what others have said...........

Traditionally, a carbine was a shorter, lighter weapon for cavalry and artiller troops to use. Sometimes it fired the same ball/charge are the regular infantry musket/rifle, sometimes a reduced charge more akin to that used in the pistols of the day.

As time progressed and breech-loading weapons came into use, similar weapons appeared and again sometimes used the full-sized rifle cartridge, sometimes a reduced charge pistol-type round. Later on, as things progressed, a carbine became a lighter/shorter version of a given country's service rifle.

During WW1, the term carbine, could also mean a pistol with detachable shoulder stock such as the Mauser C96 or the Parabellum P-08 (luger) - these designs also influenced the logical progression through to the SMG which had it's birth in WW1.

During WW11 the carbine was largely replaced in most armouries by the SMG, however the US miliatary brought out the M1 Carbine, which had no commonality with the current M1 rifle and fired a rather under-powered .30 cal straight-cased round. So, in effect we had at that point turned full circle.

Today, there are carbine-versions of many miliatary weapons.........

Rifle/Carbine...
M-16/M-4
G-3/G3k
G-36/G-36c or G-36K
AK/AKMS etc. etc.

Now, a carbine tends to be a shorter, more handy version of a standard weapon, wehich sacrifices range and accuracy for portability.

[REMOV]

AK/AKMS etc. etc.Ekhm... in this case it isn't true - both AK and AKMS are assault rifles (folding stock don't change anything e.g. G3A2 and G3A3 (with folding stock) are both battle rifles).

[DeltaWhisky58]

G-3K/G-36K...........K = Kurz, German for Short = short barrel = carbine.

AKMS I will concede to you, I didn't mention G3A2 or G3A3 - I'm talking about barrel length here.I don't claim to be an expert on specific weapons.

Surely the purpose of this post is to explain/define "what is a carbine", not to argue about the nitty gritty of individual weapon models and sub-models, we get enough of that from the armchair wannabes elsewhere on this board.

[REMOV]

AKMS I will concede to you, I didn't mention G3A2 or G3A3 - I'm talking about barrel length here.I don't claim to be an expert on specific weapons.I know, but AK and AKMS has the same barrel length ;) Maybe you missed them with AKSU-74 or AKR?

You give an example the same assault rifle - only difference between AK and AKMS (passing over internal differences between AK and AKM(M stands for Modificated) versions) is a stock - fixed in AK model and folding in AKMS model (as name stand - the last S in this name AKMS means in Russian "with folding stock"). Your example was wrong, and to show it clearly I (not you) wrote information about G3 versions with (A3) and without (A2) folding stock because the relation between them are the same like between AK and AKMS. Ufff... I hope now we understand each other ;)


Surely the purpose of this post is to explain/define "what is a carbine", not to argue about the nitty gritty of individual weapon models and sub-models, we get enough of that from the armchair wannabes elsewhere on this board. But AKMS is not a carabine version of AK. And this was my point, right?

[XASA]

:cantbeli:

[DeltaWhisky58]

REMOV

Polish now = Scottish, we ARE speaking the same language!

[California Joe]

So this carbine and 2 rifles walk into a bar.......

[GazB]

There are several carbine versions of the AK series assault rifles... the AKR or AKS-74U is probably the most well known but there is also the Bullpup Groza, and the AK-102/-104/-105 as well as perhaps the A-91.

[SOG]

anytime i see the word carbine today i just think urban or compact friendly with small trade in range/power. i guess you could beat the specific all day, range/descending series/manufacturer intent. i think some bullbup could be considered carbine because of the length compared to norm rifles but then what do you call bullbup carbines? uhghhh. then again i dont think bullpup make good carbines with non adaptable stocks? so could carbine just be considered highly adaptable in contricted areas?

as for the m1 carbine i know in the "old days" the word carbine simply meant rifle. i not sure how far this goes back or when it was changed.

[Seiyuuki]

http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/gallery/pictures/flecktarn12.jpg

[Ratamacue]

I'm pretty sure the weapon on the right is not a G3. It's some other HK weapon that's kind of a mix between rifle/carbine/submachine gun. Maybe it's the HK51? I'm not sure.

[Phantom]

dear god ratmacue, look up, both those rifles are covered under a list of carbines....or something.

and SOG u jack ass, u just don't call bullpup's carbines just coz they're shorter, they're a bullpup because the magazine is behind the trigger, if they were a compact version of an original weapon, then, they'd be a carbine of a bullpup, end of story.

[Seraphim]

Looks like a G3 to me

[Seiyuuki]

http://gunworx.co.uk/images/SG1Shorty.jpg

http://www.specwarnet.com/kit/hk53.jpg

[Gringo]

http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/gallery/pictures/flecktarn12.jpg

this pic is of Airsofters in Flecktarn gear.
The one on the left is using a G3A3, the one on the right is using the MC51.
The MC51 is basically a very compact version of the G3, similar to the sort of thing with G36 and G36C

[Seraphim]

Ya I was wonder why he was holding the g3 like that...would be very awkward if it was a real one.

[Herrmannek]

Also guy on the right holds rifle with hand on magazine. Don't know MC51 (airsoft or real doesn't matter), but this is very bad habit on almost any kind of rifle.

[Gringo]

Also guy on the right holds rifle with hand on magazine. Don't know MC51 (airsoft or real doesn't matter), but this is very bad habit on almost any kind of rifle.

When I play airsoft I have the tendency to do that.
I've found a vertical foregrip helps stop this

[Phantom]

i've seen numerous footage of U.S. Navy SEALs firing like that from a ****e position. Seemed to work fine

[Seraphim]

i've seen numerous footage of U.S. Navy SEALs firing like that from a ****e position. Seemed to work fine

I see many pics of troops holding their rifles by the mag like that.

[Gringo]

It happens a lot in the ****e position, when ****e it's u tend not to be "sideways" like u would holding the rifle standing.

[SOG]

and SOG u jack ass, u just don't call bullpup's carbines just coz they're shorter, they're a bullpup because the magazine is behind the trigger, if they were a compact version of an original weapon, then, they'd be a carbine of a bullpup, end of story.

two words [reading comprehension]

what i said:

i think some bullbup could be considered carbine because of the length compared to norm rifles but then what do you call bullbup carbines?

i didnt say bullpup were carbines, i said compared to other rifles could they be considered carbines (aka shorter overall length) and if so what would bullpup carbines be?

so 1st i didnt call them bullpup because they were shorter, i said would they be considered carbines to what? NORMAL RIFLES. you know, being the size of a carbine without being a carbine why not use them instead of carbines? i dont know, non adjustable stocks, ammo reload might take slightly longer, but the faMas looks decent for cqb etc? usa unwilling to buy foreign guns or doesnt dig bullpup enough?

an thx for the name calling, always a turn on eh?

[Phantom]

u jackass, again.
i don't care if it's a shorter overall rifle, length doesn't make it a carbine. and a bullpup carbine would be called exactly that. and that's all there is to it

[Herrmannek]

Mags are not designed (usually) to use them like foregrips (thin plastic, aluminium tinware), so holding mags can cause feeding problems & such. Don't know every wepon design, but in rifle manuals you can usually read that holding mags is not advised. Thats why God created foregrips.

[Phantom]

and not all weapons can take them, same goes for poor countries, they can't all afford them. you'll probably see more terrorists with good weapons in poor countries

[Royal]

A bullpup carbine is exactly that, a bullpup carbine.

There were trials of a carbine version of the L85A1 for AFV crews and aircrew (among others). Fortunately the idea was binned, as it was even worse than the normal L85A1. AFV crews got the standard rifle after all and aircrew got the MP5...

[Gringo]

and aircrew got the MP5...

lucky sods!!!
They get a weapon that doesn't have to be used to clobber the enemy with to be lethal

[REMOV]

There are several carbine versions of the AK series assault rifles... the AKR or AKS-74U is probably the most well known but there is also the Bullpup Groza, and the AK-102/-104/-105 as well as perhaps the A-91.Ekhm... the problem with Groza (or OC-14-4 i.e. Groza-4) is that it's not exacly a carbine version of anything but something stand alone called " 9/40mm OC-14 Groza assault weapon system" (and various models are called assault rifles not carbines). And a weapon previously called OC-14-1 (i.e. Groza-1) is now separated and called "7,62/40mm TKB-0239 assault weapon system" (Strielkovo-Granatomyotny Komplex) consisted of three versions:
- assault rifle with GL (avtomat s granatomietom),
- special-purpose assault rifle (avtomat spyetznalnyy),
- assault rifle (avtomat).

Only a A-91 "small size assault rifle" is something what Russians called carbine (Malogabarytny Avtomat), but the funny thing is that it has barrel lenght 415mm (the same as AK-74M - sic!) and it's only 40mm shorter than normal AK-74M ;) So I'm reluctant to called it carabine in normal way.

BTW - GazB - AKS-74U in Russia isn't treat like carbine, but something like subassault rifle (something halfway between carbine and SMG). Real carbines are called "Malogabarytnyj Avtomat" i.e. "Small-size assault rifle".

[REMOV]

There were trials of a carbine version of the L85A1 for AFV crews and aircrew (among others). Fortunately the idea was binned, as it was even worse than the normal L85A1.This one? ;)

http://www.militech.sownet.gliwice.pl/inne/L85A1Carbine.jpg

[Seraphim]

Example numero uno

http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//uploaded/uploaded-33074_large.jpg

[Royal]

There were trials of a carbine version of the L85A1 for AFV crews and aircrew (among others). Fortunately the idea was binned, as it was even worse than the normal L85A1.This one? ;)

http://www.militech.sownet.gliwice.pl/inne/L85A1Carbine.jpg

Yep.

[USMarine3521]

that is one ugly looking gun lol

[GazB]

Quite a few good points REMOV, I just assumed the Groza was based on the AKS-74U body, like the Gepard and Bizon SMGs.

Regarding the A-91 and your comments:
Real carbines are called "Malogabarytnyj Avtomat" i.e. "Small-size assault rifle".

In Russia's Arms 2001-2002 catalog the A-91 is listed as "Small-size assault rifle", as is the AK-102/-104/-105.

Also your measurement for the AK-74M includes the butt folded... not very practical to fire it in that condition. The A-91 was designed with the express purpose of making the grenadiers job easier by shifting the weight of the weapon back so that when the grenade launcher was fitted it wasn't too front heavy. (The two weapons have reasonably similar empty weights with the AK-74M .3kgs lighter when it is not fitted with a grenade launcher).

The SR-3 Vikhr , and the outwardly similar 9A-91 are both called small sized assault rifle, yet they are intended to be used out to 200m and weigh about 2kg each they might be called sub assault rifles as both are smaller and lighter than the AKS-74U.

I think "shortened and/or lightened for specialist use" is about as accurate as you can go. My Mosin Nagant carbines are longer than my AKM (Type 56S).

[Gringo]

Time for another good idea, bad idea.

Good Idea! holding the rifle with the vertical foregrip :)

Bad Idea! holding the rifle by it's magazine :(

http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//uploaded/uploaded-33074_large.jpg

[Seraphim]

Looks more like the magazine well though. I dont see why holding the mag might cause malfuctions.

[Royal]

Looks more like the magazine well though. I dont see why holding the mag might cause malfuctions.

Applying pressure to the magazine can cause rounds to missfeed as it pulls the mag out of alignment in the housing. This effect varies with weapons. With some (such as the L85A2) there is a negligable effect, with others such as the Stirling even brushing the mag with your hand causes stoppages.