SAS gets NH-90 copters (?)

[2RHPZ]

I just run into one post on another forum:


Brit SAS to get 'stealth' NH-90's

Can't find it 'electronically' for now but there was an article in the UK 'Daily Mail' (Mail on Sunday to be precise) stating that 4 NH90's were being acquired for the SAS CRW cadre. The article made a big hoo-ha about how they were 'stealth' helicopters because they were so quiet and give off only minimal electronic emmissions. Wasn't clear whether they were a 'special' version however ...

You can go for specification on this helicopter to http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/nh90.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/nh90-701.jpg

[FDF_Hemppis]

blahblah... The article made a big hoo-ha about how they were 'stealth' helicopters because they were so quiet and give off only minimal electronic emmissions. Wasn't clear whether they were a 'special' version however ...


I'm under the impression that the NH-90 is indeed build to be stealthy, but not stealth like i.e. a B2...

But as usually, reporters see no difference in the 2 words :cantbeli:

But it's still great news if they get it, no? It's one of the most advanced tactical transport choppers around...

[Michael RVR]

Whats CRW ?

For the vast majority of the missions they might run with them, they're as good stealth as you need - its unlikely they'll face radar or IR seekers.

Course that depends on what CRW entails, of which i dont have a clue. ;)

[digrar]

Counter revolutionary warfare.

[marktigger]

there was a report in airforces monthly that the RAF support hele is in deep SH*t and procurment was going to be curtailed and puma retired etc. But nothing was announced in the defence review so i think it was one of those proposed ideas to save money.
I have it on fairly good authority that the RAF don't like merlin and didn't want to procure it they wanted Cougars. But with Sea King HC4 and Puma both needing replaced in the Next 10 years NH90/Merlin/Chinook is looking to be a good prospect. This will include a navalised chinook probably as the cdo brigade like the capability the chinook gives them but it cant be stored on ocean's hanger. Given the **** up over the SF chinook HC3 Procurment it should be interesting to watch. It will take £127 million to bring HC3 up to spec.

[oldsoak]

I'm suprised that they dont like the EH101 and plumped for the Cougar - especially as the NH90 would be a more modern option with a large NATO userbase.

[ronin2172]

what exactly is wrong with the merlin?

[DeltaWhisky58]

I'm sorry guys, but this topic lacks credibility.

The helos of choice for the SAS are: The Augusta A109, of which 7 flight AAC have four - 100% SAS dedicated with specially trained SF crews - based at Credenhill; and The Puma. The Puma is an old design, but it is perfectly suited to SAS needs, even to the extent that the RAF has bought six second-hand from South Africa and has had these fully factory re-built in Romania.

I have to dis-agree with negative comments about the Merlin, the crews I have spoken to loved it. Bearing in mind the Augusta/Puma/Merlin/Chinook coverage of the transport helicopter spectrum, there is just no reason why the MoD would by the NH90 for SAS use when it is effectively a direct competitor to the Merlin?

[marktigger]

the comments i heard is that its very fragile and when the ramp gets wet the RAF Regt couldn't get up the rear ramp.
Most of the comments I heard from the army liked it 16CSMR thought it was the ideal platform flying operating theatre as the staff can actually talk to each other and be heard.
My theory is the RAF wants to integrate into a european airforce and therefore want standard equipment. And to the fast jet community a helecopter as versitile as merlin with the capabilities it can have would be a threat to their egos. If for example it excells in CSAR which it is an ideal platform for resources may have to be diverted from shiney jets to support helecopters to provide kit/training. The RAF regt desperatley wants to go into the CSAR role. personally i think it would be better for the FAA and Royal Marines to go down that road given:-
1. Navy Piolts routinly fly in weather that keeps the RAF in the Mess.
2. Navy Medical assistants are the best medics in the UK armed forces bar SAS team medics.
3 Navy SAR crews have divers as part of the crew.
4. The Marines are the most flexible of our light forces.

[oldsoak]

Points 1 to 4 = agreed. I would not have called it fragile, and the not getting up the ramp bit could be pretty easily cured with a bucket of fine sand and some paint. Time to put tactical troop transport in the hands of the Army methinks.

[marktigger]

nope all in hands of RAF under JHF :roll: and anyone who's done the border in NI will tell you Crab air aren't the most reliable taxi service in the buissness

[marktigger]

There is a thread on PPrune that is saying NH90 is being looked at as a Lynx replacement in the BLUH programme as battlefield lynx may be to small for some of the requirements. Airforces monthly had spoken of this with the NH90 replacing lynx in BLUH role and AH-6e in the light observation/laison role. And possibly NH90 in replacing Puma. Though personally i think chinnook/merlin combination would be a better puma replacement.

[fantassin]

The Merlins only started flying again on the 23rd of June after their 3-month flying ban due to the March, 30th crash at RNAS Culdrose.

With Australia going for the NH90 too, that should make a good point for its purchase.

[lekomin]

It will take £127 million to bring HC3 up to spec.
nope. It will take that much to put them in the flyable condition and not up to the specifiaction of the orginal requirement. :)
take care
lekomin inc

[2RHPZ]

Army to get $1 billion helicopter fleet
August 31, 2004 - 1:33PM

The Australian Army is to be equipped with 12 Eurocopter NH-90 troop transport helicopters under a $1 billion deal announced by the federal government.

Prime Minister John Howard and Defence Minister Robert Hill said today the government had selected Australian Aerospace to supply the new aircraft to bolster the nation's counter-terrorism capabilities.

"The helicopter can carry up to 18 troops plus four crew or 4,000 kilograms of under-slung cargo, cruises at up to 300kph and has a maximum range of over 900 kilometres," they said in a statement.

The government chose the Eurocopter aircraft over the latest variant of the Black Hawk helicopter supplied by US firm Sikorsky.

Sikorsky had offered 48 UH-60M Black Hawk aircraft.

The British Special Air Service recently opted for four modified NH-90s for use in special operations.

[marktigger]

lekomin
I would say to bring them up to spec they would be better just buying MH-47's.
Its a shame that Battlefield Lynx may not now enter service I always liked the Lynx and especilly in the Asur role over water it has excelled.

[Ballistic]

Army to get $1 billion helicopter fleet
August 31, 2004 - 1:33PM

The Australian Army is to be equipped with 12 Eurocopter NH-90 troop transport helicopters under a $1 billion deal announced by the federal government.

Prime Minister John Howard and Defence Minister Robert Hill said today the government had selected Australian Aerospace to supply the new aircraft to bolster the nation's counter-terrorism capabilities.

"The helicopter can carry up to 18 troops plus four crew or 4,000 kilograms of under-slung cargo, cruises at up to 300kph and has a maximum range of over 900 kilometres," they said in a statement.

The government chose the Eurocopter aircraft over the latest variant of the Black Hawk helicopter supplied by US firm Sikorsky.

Sikorsky had offered 48 UH-60M Black Hawk aircraft.

The British Special Air Service recently opted for four modified NH-90s for use in special operations.

Was it 48 UH-60M's for the same price ?? I still think the Blackhawks would have been a better purchase.

[lekomin]

lekomin
I would say to bring them up to spec they would be better just buying MH-47's.
Its a shame that Battlefield Lynx may not now enter service I always liked the Lynx and especilly in the Asur role over water it has excelled.
bringing them up to the orginal planned capabilities would cost much more.. What they are planning to do is to rework them to HC2 standard for 127 million quid.. There was a nice article on the whole subject in the AFM. btw. the best mix for the Brits right now is Chinook/Merlin/SuperLynx... "best" in terms of logistical support, purchase & operating cost and - of course - performance.
take care
lekomin inc

[marktigger]

maybe but the argument is that Battlefield lynx is to small fore some of the envisaged roles and Merlin is to big. Added to this the RAF don't want Merlin and they did a disasterous deployment to Jordan with no sand filters to IMHO prove their point and get it removed from the support helecopter role.

I think Merlin with a few years will be an excellent platform for support heleops/CSAR/SAR. But some crabs are determined for this not to happen as they wanted Cougar and are sulking over Merlin.

NH90 would also have some advantages being nearer Puma size. But you forgot one light utility helecopter actually in service with the RAF the Bell 412 would be a cost effective light battlefield helecopter.

IMHO the AAC should replace lynx in the AT role with apache with Battlefield Lynx in the OP/Laison role. Bell 412 or NH90 in the Utility role and the RAF/FAA with Merlin/Chinook In the main support hele role.
I would also sugest the Booties need an expanded avation sqn with 2 flights of dedicated apache a flight of Lynx in AOP/laison role and 2 flights of Light utility helecopters eg 412/NH90 and 3 naval air sqns of Merlin/Chinook

In another AFM news item it was proposed to replace the Lynx in the utility/laison/op role with a mix of little bird MH6 and NH90

[oldsoak]

"maybe but the argument is that Battlefield lynx is to small fore some of the envisaged roles and Merlin is to big. Added to this the RAF don't want Merlin and they did a disasterous deployment to Jordan with no sand filters to IMHO prove their point and get it removed from the support helecopter role."

...never... surely not... I dont beleive you...our RAF deliberately fix things ?
:P

[fantassin]

Quote:

the Bell 412 would be a cost effective light battlefield helecopter.


Ask the Canadians what they think of their Griffins (Bell 412)...

They are underpowered, take only 6 soldiers if they want a decent range; are slow, fragile....the crewmembers from the Canadian air force's 430 ETAH I spoke with told me the only reason the 412 was bought was because it could be licence-built in Canada.

[lekomin]

maybe but the argument is that Battlefield lynx is to small fore some of the envisaged roles and Merlin is to big. Added to this the RAF don't want Merlin and they did a disasterous deployment to Jordan with no sand filters to IMHO prove their point and get it removed from the support helecopter role.

Any helo without sand filters would break in Jordan..


I think Merlin with a few years will be an excellent platform for support heleops/CSAR/SAR. But some crabs are determined for this not to happen as they wanted Cougar and are sulking over Merlin.

Cougar is a tuned up Puma. It is the previous generation helo.. Merlin is at this time the most modern helo in the world. Of course there are problems.. If you don't want problems while introducing a new weapons system arm your army with longbows.. the Crecy kind of longbows and not AH-64 :)



NH90 would also have some advantages being nearer Puma size. But you forgot one light utility helecopter actually in service with the RAF the Bell 412 would be a cost effective light battlefield helecopter.

They have a similar problem in the US.. They will have the new CH53X for the heavylift and new chinooks for mid to heavy, but they need new blackhawks, new "smaller then blackhawks" and the new "Kiowa warrior".. Personaly I think that dividing requirements between so many platforms is crazy.



IMHO the AAC should replace lynx in the AT role with apache with Battlefield Lynx in the OP/Laison role. Bell 412 or NH90 in the Utility role and the RAF/FAA with Merlin/Chinook In the main support hele role.
I would also sugest the Booties need an expanded avation sqn with 2 flights of dedicated apache a flight of Lynx in AOP/laison role and 2 flights of Light utility helecopters eg 412/NH90 and 3 naval air sqns of Merlin/Chinook
Too many types. I have reservations about the concept of the AT helo.. As a matter of fact Israelis have the same reservations and are not sure about buying more AH64D... the whole concept of the AT helo was about precision and strengh-through-stealth.. Earth napping helos were supposed to be safer then mid-alltitude fighter-bombers, and the guided missiles had a huge precision advantage over 1960's, 1970's and 1980's fighter-bomber weapons.. In all other respects (range and speed) helicopters are on the disadvantage in comparsion to planes.
MANPADS and RPG's forced them to fly higher (look at the Israeli tactics.. they are not napping.. they are using helos at mid to high alt. level).. in the meantime the precision of the helicopter-launched weapons improved, but the fighter-launched weapons improved much more.. I am pretty sure in today's battlefield a Gucci-equiped F16I can deliver more precision weapons, faster, further and safer then the AH64D. In all helicopters should be more about recce and less about AT.. Thats way I would think the Brits should pay a little bit more and get Longbow radars for all their WAH64, forget about the Lynx AT function and concentrate on light recce/utility. Combination of Apache for heavy recce/AT, SuperLynx for light recce/utility, Merlin and Chinook for transport, CSAR and SFsupport should to just fine for the Army and RAF. RN should do fine with Merlins for combat support and ASW and SuperLynx for light-ASW. Bell 412 are good for training and for the "overseas flights" (Belize, Cyprus, etc). For sure you have compromises, and for sure you are worse of then having additional two types of helos.. But at least you have your back covered in ALL areas. UK cannot afford the optimal mix of say 6 types of helos.. it can afford 4 (plus Bell 412 in a niche role; PPP-operated).. You can rid of Pumas, SeaKings and Gazelles..



In another AFM news item it was proposed to replace the Lynx in the utility/laison/op role with a mix of little bird MH6 and NH90
If you want something more modern then Lynx get AB139.. the new Augusta helo.
take care
lekomin inc

[fantassin]

From "Mail on Sunday"

SAS helicopters 'can't fly when cloudy'

by MATTHEW HICKLEY, Daily Mail
13:27pm 7th April 2004


Helicopters built specially for the SAS at a cost of £259 million cannot fly on cloudy days, a damning report has revealed.

The eight Chinook Mark 3 aircraft are crippled by such massive technical problems that they are still standing idle six years after they should have entered service.

They were meant to carry SAS troopers on secret missions behind enemy lines, flying at almost ground level in zero visibility.

But blunders during the contract process mean pilots cannot rely on their instruments, the National Audit Office report revealed, and can fly only in clear skies.

Edward Leigh, Tory chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, accused the Defence Ministry of overseeing "one of the most incompetent procurements of all time".

He said: "Instead of desperately-needed helicopters, they might as well have bought eight turkeys."

The report into Britain's battlefield helicopters also reveals a massive shortage, and says there were not enough for last year's Iraq war.

Short of vital equipment

Astonishingly, some Army helicopter pilots no longer get enough flying training to meet minimum levels to maintain their skills.

Helicopter units are also short of vital equipment, including chemical and biological warfare protection for crews.

Worse still, the NAO study found, under the MoD's current planning the situation will not improve for another 14 years.

The report's most embarrassing revelations involve the Chinook Mark 3, which was based on a design used by US Special Forces.

To save money, the MoD decided to fit some of its own instruments and electronics instead of buying "off-the-shelf" kit from manufacturers Boeing. The contract was so badly handled that the MoD apparently forgot to specify many essential features, and "hybrid" cockpit displays combining digital and analogue instruments proved to be incompatible.

Not given safety clearance

The cockpit layout is so bizarre it cannot be given UK safety clearance, so the helicopters are allowed to fly only on cloudless days, above 500ft and for a limited time.

The aircraft were delivered by December 2001 - three years after the original target - but none has been accepted into service and it is feared the computerised kit may never work.

NAO investigators said they could not even find proper records of how the deal went so disastrously wrong, but "it would appear lack of funding has played a significant part".

Fixing the Chinooks would cost £127 million more and take at least three years. But with the MoD facing a massive budget crisis, RAF insiders say they doubt the helicopters will ever fly, and they will probably be sold back to Boeing.

Much of their hi-tech equipment was stripped out and fitted to older Chinooks

[Little J]

RAF... did a disasterous deployment to Jordan with no sand filters to IMHO prove their point and get it removed from the support helecopter role.

They did? When was this? The mk.3's haven't played in the sand yet, have they? p-)

As a battlefield replacement AB139 would be good (NH-90 bit big 4 the army, RAF gets jealous), but i like the Lynx, and the navy likes its small size, so the army may just have to keep it anyway. woot