Bush Denounces Ad As Other Witnesses Support Kerry

[XASA]

August 23, 2004
Bush Denounces Outside Groups' Influence on Campaign
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

CRAWFORD, Texas -- President Bush denounced campaign commercials aired by outside groups on Monday, including an ad that accuses John Kerry of lying about his combat record in Vietnam.

"That ad and every other ad" run by such groups have no place in the campaign, Bush said when asked about the commercial sponsored by Swift Boat Veterans For Truth that has roiled the race for the White House.

Asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, Bush said, "I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."

The president made his comments as the Kerry campaign fought back against charges made by the outside group about the senator's wartime service in Vietnam for which he received five medals.

In a conference call with reporters arranged by aides to the Democratic presidential candidate, Navy swift boat officers Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker said Kerry acted honorably and bravely and was well qualified to be the nation's commander in chief.

"He was the most aggressive officer in charge of swift boats," Baker said.

Additionally, crewmate Del Sandusky said at a news conference in Harrisburg, Pa., that he personally witnessed the battle action for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts.

"He deserved every one of his medals," said Sandusky, a retired computer repairman who drove Kerry's Navy swift boat boat for nearly three months.

In Texas, Bush said, "I don't think we ought to have 527s," a reference to the outside groups that have poured millions of dollars over the past year into attack ads. Bush himself has been a main target of ads costing some $60 million. Bush said all of the ads should be stopped.

"That means that ad," he said, referring to the anti-Kerry ad, "and every other ad."

The anti-Kerry ad, no longer running but much publicized in news accounts, says Kerry didn't deserve his Purple Hearts, lied to get his Bronze Star and Silver Star and unfairly branded all veterans with his 1971 congressional testimony about atrocities in Vietnam.

"I couldn't be more plain about it," Bush said "I hope my opponent joins me in condemning these activities of the 527s."

With polls suggesting Kerry's standing was beginning to slip -- at least among veterans -- the Democrat last week called on Bush to call for the attack ads to be pulled from the air. He also accused Bush of allowing front groups to "do his dirty work."

Bush's campaign heatedly denied any connection with the anti-Kerry group, and called on the Democratic challenger to join the president in a call for all outside groups to pull their ads.

Underscoring the impact of the anti-Kerry ad, the Democratic National Committee began airing a commercial last week that offered a testimonial to Kerry's fitness for national command.

And in a shift in strategy, Kerry's campaign has responded with two commercials, despite plans to preserve its campaign funds for the general election campaign.

Kerry running mate John Edwards said Sunday that Bush needed to tell the veterans group to pull its anti-Kerry ads. Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona has said the tactics are the same kind used on him and asked the president to denounce them.

A new Kerry ad says Bush smeared McCain four years ago and "now, he's doing it to John Kerry."

A former Vietnam prisoner of war, McCain lost the South Carolina Republican primary in 2000 after Bush supporters accused him of opposing legislation to help military veterans. McCain never recovered from that primary loss.

Former Sen. Bob Dole, a World War II veteran and 1996 Republican presidential nominee, suggested Kerry apologize for his 1971 testimony to Congress about atrocities U.S. soldiers allegedly committed in Vietnam.

Dole, who has a disabled right arm from war wounds, said Kerry received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds." He called on the nominee to release all of his Vietnam service records.

Dole told CNN's "Late Edition" in relation to Kerry: "I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

Crewmate Sandusky said Monday, "I was there when he got wounded. I saw the blood. I don't care what Dole said."

[XASA]

I see Beowulf posted a similar report; however, this article has more details from more witnesses to the events that SBV have lied about.

[moughoun]

Isn't there some legal mean's that can be used to make the SBV's withdraw their claim's,if they are so patently false?

[Beowulf]

Isn't there some legal mean's that can be used to make the SBV's withdraw their claim's,if they are so patently false?

there are laws against slander (spoken) and libel (written)...

[Hiroshima]

That's weird that the article reports that the slip boat vet ad isn't running anymore....I've seen it this past weekend on non-news channels up here.

[budanski]

Isn't there some legal mean's that can be used to make the SBV's withdraw their claim's,if they are so patently false?
Good question. You have to wonder why Kerry isnt even countering these accusations, himself. Instead, he's tried to stop the release of "Unfit for Command", attempted to stop the SwiftBoatVet ads from airing and rather than release documents to counter the accusations, accuses Bush of being behind the ads. John O'Neil has even asked Kerry to sue him for slander if what he said was untrue.

Bush denounced ALL 527 groups, not just the SBV. Lets now see if Kerry would do the same with Moveon.org, ACT, Media Fund, F911, etc.

[Hiroshima]

hey, did you see that video ACT has on their site?

[budanski]

hey, did you see that video ACT has on their site?
The one with Will Ferrell? Pretty funny. :D

[Hiroshima]

Thing is, I don't like what's going on this election, but it's fun to make fun of the folks in charge..I mean, I laugh at jokes at Sen. Kennedy, and that Will Farrel movie was just absolutely beautiful. I think it was more ment to try to get people to register to vote this year, since such a small number of our population seems to actually get out there. Heck, I've asked my friends 'Did you vote last election' (they were 18 at the time) and they said no, so I say you don't really have any say in the matter right now, do you? Sad thing is, they end up agreeing with me.

[XASA]

Asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, Bush said, "I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."


So, Budanski, is Bush supporting the SBVT lies or not? Sounds like he isn't to me. Why do you continue to insist that he is? And why are some of Bush supporters still so reluctant to admit that this is and has been all along a smear campaign? If you don't like Kerry for his politics and his stand on any number of issues, fine, don't vote for him, but to continue to insist that the SBVT lies are fact is rather pitiful in light of all the official evidence and eyewitness accounts that have surfaced since they made their outrageous claims.

The last time I checked, Kerry has challenged the SBVT by filing a formal complaint. Also, this isn't England, where libel and slander cases are easier to adjudicate. Freedom of speech and the fact that Kerry is a public personality makes it highly unlikely any libel charge would ever go to court.

Face it guys, the blowback from this; i.e., it makes for a larger Democratic turnout and sways independents to vote for Kerry, is going to make this a historically bad political move on the part of Republicans.

[Hiroshima]

Well....political elections are always border line smear campaigns...I stand for this, but my opponent stands for that...big time joy and fun...

[Old300]

Asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, Bush said, "I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."


So, Budanski, is Bush supporting the SBVT lies or not? Sounds like he isn't to me. Why do you continue to insist that he is? And why are some of Bush supporters still so reluctant to admit that this is and has been all along a smear campaign? If you don't like Kerry for his politics and his stand on any number of issues, fine, don't vote for him, but to continue to insist that the SBVT lies are fact is rather pitiful in light of all the official evidence and eyewitness accounts that have surfaced since they made there libelous claims.

The last time I checked, Kerry has challenged the SBVT by filing a formal complaint. Also, this isn't England, where libel and slander cases are easier to adjudicate. Freedom of speech and the fact that Kerry is a public personality makes it highly unlikely any libel charge would ever go to court.

Face it guys, the blowback from this; i.e., it makes for a larger Democratic turnout and sways independents to vote for Kerry, is going to make this a historically bad political move on the part of Republicans.

I disagree with you. The only way that the Swiftvet ads and accompanying controversy can help Kerry is by calling attention to the fact that Kerry was in Vietnam and the President wasn't.

But I don't think that was a secret to begin with. Indeed, the Democrats devoted their entire convention to portraying their nominee as a war hero. Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam is the only thing that he's running on (and that isn't an exaggeration). It is probably the only thing that the average American knows about John Kerry.

Before last week, Kerry's war record was 100% good for him. Now it might be - who knows? - 75% good for him: if the ads have any effect at all it will be to create questions in some voters' minds about the only thing that John Kerry has going for him.

[budanski]

Asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, Bush said, "I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."


So, Budanski, is Bush supporting the SBVT lies or not? Sounds like he isn't to me. Why do you continue to insist that he is? And why are some of Bush supporters still so reluctant to admit that this is and has been all along a smear campaign? If you don't like Kerry for his politics and his stand on any number of issues, fine, don't vote for him, but to continue to insist that the SBVT lies are fact is rather pitiful in light of all the official evidence and eyewitness accounts that have surfaced since they made their outrageous claims.
Bush has nothing to lose by denouncing the SBV. They've stated numerous times that they're going to continue running their ads regardless of what the President says. Unlike Bush, Kerry's IS connected to his 527 groups and stands to lose more.

What you swallow to be truth from the Kerry camp (I still think you and Tane were duped into believing that the republicans were going take away your social security benefits ;) ), we find fishy with them having to constantly change their stories. Whats the lastest story out now? That kerry actually jumped in to rescue Rassman?

If you want to talk about 'smears', John Kerry committed the ultimate smear campaign when he returned from Vietnam (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/Kerry_1971_Testimony.pdf) and the democrats are no strangers to this game...
YES, THE LEFT QUESTIONED BOB DOLE'S MEDALS IN 1996
NRO (http://www.nationalreview.com/kerry/kerry200408230910.asp)

Let's not hear any more talk about how high-minded the left was about Bob Dole and his medals eight years ago.
The Nation argued that Bob Dole got his first Purple Heart for a self-inflicted wound. Robert Ellis, who, like Dole 10th Mountain Division in World War II, sought to debunk the "myth" of Dole's heroism:

The truth about Dole's war record is considerably less than awe-inspiring. Yet the myth endures, and with the candidate running on the contrast between his and Clinton's military record, his campaign isn't eager to give a more accurate account. Dole, at the behest of his handlers, is less reticent about his service than in the past, but he mainly speaks about his wound and rehabilitation. He has passed up several opportunities to correct the exaggerated versions in biographies, and in the case of his self-wounding has even approved a sanitized account in which his maladroitly hurled grenade goes unnoted. Journalists continue to portray him as a hero, winner of two Bronze Stars. Joe Klein, for example, writes in Newsweek that Dole knows "what guns do. He also knows what politicians do, which is rarely anything quite so dramatic as leading an army into battle." Such attempts to make political capital out of Dole's war service go beyond the respect due him for the role he played as a soldier with the 10th Mountain Division.

A presidential candidate's fellow veteran makes claims, charging the candidate wasn't the hero his party says he was? Unprecedented!

The last time I checked, Kerry has challenged the SBVT by filing a formal complaint. Also, this isn't England, where libel and slander cases are easier to adjudicate. Freedom of speech and the fact that Kerry is a public personality makes it highly unlikely any libel charge would ever go to court.
Yeah, threaten lawsuits against TV stations that dares run the commercials (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/08/23/asparks.DTL) and not at Paul O'Neil and the SBVs themselves. Request that publishers withraw O'Neil's book. This coming from the party of "free speech"...

Face it guys, the blowback from this; i.e., it makes for a larger Democratic turnout and sways independents to vote for Kerry, is going to make this a historically bad political move on the part of Republicans.
Blowback? Really? Bush seems to fair better with vets (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/20/fri/) and is still ahead in the polls (http://www.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=12694)
Majority Approves of President
S.F. Gate (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/08/23/asparks.DTL)

Now that we all know Kerry is more warlike than the president -- after all, he would have removed Saddam without any evidence of WMDs -- Bush's job approval in the latest Gallup poll is now at 51 percent, almost identical to Clinton's 52 percent rating in August 1996 and President Reagan's 54 percent mark in August 1984. Last week, USA Today reported that "no president who has been at or above 50 percent at this point in an election year has lost."

Last week, a Gallup Poll reported Bush ahead of Kerry, 50-47, with likely voters, a turnaround from a month ago today, when Kerry was ahead in the same poll -- until the Democratic National Convention, that is.

[American Patriot]

Kerry lied.

[Tane Angle]

So anyone else hear about that Cheney staffer being in the SVT ad? Real unrelated to the Administration. :|

[achilles]

George W. Bush:
"I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."

An immensely sharp political maneuvre...with a couple of simple words Bush managed to place himself on top of the situation...i guess this resolves this huge "who was the bravest?" debate that reminds me pretty much of elementary school years, when the argument was between spiderman or superman...i was claiming that superman was a fake...based on the same reasoning according to which people nowadays claim either Bush or Kerry to be a coward or fake or whatever.

All in all, Kerry should be proud but Bush wins this one ;)

[OB Kenobi]

attempted to stop the SwiftBoatVet ads from airing and rather than release documents to counter the accusations

Here are Kerry's military records and AAR's:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

So much for those Republican conspiracy theories. Now where are Bush's records? I mean other than pay stubs and a note from a dentist, if you can call those records.

http://www.stopbushin04.com/LITTLE%20AWOL%20BUSH%20copy.jpg

[XASA]

Budanski, your sources are as bogus as the SBVT, and your digressions have nothing to do with the SBVT being liars. Despite the preponderence of facts, eyewitness accounts and offical records that contradict the SBVT you remain a true believer, which is really pathetic. As one of Bush's core Republican base I wouldn't expect you to support Kerry but I would expect you to be honorable and based your opinion on the facts instead of emotions, lies and manipulation by others.

What is interesting is that you are taking a page out of the Republican play book by not only taking remarks out of context but by also attempting to spread disinformation as well. For example, you claim Kerry is suing the media to keep the commercials off the air without any proof, when in actuality it is the Republican party sending letters to the television and radio stations trying to keep a Kerry commercial off the air. Again, if you want to become a propagandist for the far right, try being a bit more adept at it.

The vast majority of veterans I am in touch with are very angry at these charges and almost to a man have not only decided to vote for Kerry but have also been energized to help his campaign by talking to others about their views.

BTW, there's yet another link between SBV and Bush; Susan Arceneaux is treasurer for Tom DeLay's Majority Leader's Fund and is listed as point person for the SBVT.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 24, 2004
VETERANS
President Urges Outside Groups to Halt All Ads
By ELISABETH BUMILLER and KATE ZERNIKE

CRAWFORD, Tex., Aug. 23 - President Bush said on Monday that political advertisements run by a broad swath of independent groups should be stopped, including a television advertisement attacking Senator John Kerry's war record. But the White House quickly moved to insist that Mr. Bush had not meant in any way to single out the advertisement run by veterans opposed to Mr. Kerry.

Mr. Bush spoke to reporters at his Texas ranch after a weekend in which veterans supporting and opposing Mr. Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, furiously debated mostly unsubstantiated accusations against him by a group calling itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

In television appearances, a book and television advertisements, these Vietnam veterans have argued that Mr. Kerry fabricated the circumstances leading to his three Purple Hearts, Bronze Star and Silver Star and discredited veterans with his antiwar statements when he returned from Vietnam three decades ago.

Asked on Monday about one of the anti-Kerry advertisements, financed largely by Texas supporters of Mr. Bush, the president said that he wanted to stop "all of them.''

"That means that ad, every other ad,'' he said.

The president spoke on a day when Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, in another indication of its web of ties to the Republican Party, acknowledged that a woman who helped set it up and works for it is an officer of the Majority Leader's Fund, a political action committee affiliated with the former House majority leader Dick Armey of Texas.

The name of the woman, Susan Arceneaux, is given as the contact person on the post office box that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth lists as its address. She is treasurer of the Majority Leader's Fund. Records show that like Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the group receives significant financing from Bob Perry, a Texan who has long supported Mr. Bush, and his company, as well as Sam and Charles Wyly, prominent Texas Republican donors. Sam Wyly, under the name "Republicans for Clean Air,'' took out advertisements in 2000 criticizing the environmental record of Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona.

Mr. Perry has donated $200,000 to the Swift boat group, records show, and Merrie Spaeth, a Republican strategist who has been advising the Swift boat group, was a spokeswoman for Sam Wyly's advertising campaign in 2000.

Mr. Bush put his remarks about the advertisement by the Swift boat group in the context of his previous calls for a ban on advertisements from third-party groups known as 527's, using large, unlimited donations. Only when pressed by reporters whether he specifically meant the commercial from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, did he say "all of them.''

"I don't think we ought to have 527's,'' Mr. Bush said, referring to independent political groups that are running advertisements on both sides of the political spectrum. "I can't be more plain about it and I wish - I hope my opponents join me in saying - condemning these activities of 527's. I think they are bad for the system.''

His press secretary, Scott McClellan, said Mr. Bush had not intended to single out the Swift boat advertisement as one that should be stopped.

With Mr. Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee, mounting a daily counterattack against the attacks on his record, Mr. Bush on Monday tried to walk a fine line.

Asked if Mr. Kerry had lied about his war record, Mr. Bush said, "Mr. Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record.'' But he did not criticize the Swift boat group or address the content of the advertisement. In recent weeks Mr. McCain has called on Mr. Bush to condemn the advertisement, as has the Kerry campaign.

A Kerry spokesman on Monday repeated that call. "Again the president did the wrong thing today,'' said Chad Clanton, a campaign spokesman. "He has refused to specifically condemn the smear campaign against John Kerry's military record.''

The dispute over the advertisement and Mr. Kerry's record has dominated the presidential race for days, even as the Republicans head into their nominating convention next week in New York City. Several Bush advisers said the protracted debate about Mr. Kerry's actions in a long-ago war is to their political advantage, even in the face of a new television advertisement from the Kerry campaign blaming Mr. Bush for the Swift boat veterans' attacks.

"The president still looks like the commander in chief, and Kerry is still competing for traction on that,'' said Terry Holt, a Bush campaign spokesman.Mr. Bush echoed that theme in his comments on Monday. Answering the first of several questions about the Swift boat advertisement, Mr. Bush ignored the query and instead responded, "I think we ought to be debating who best to be leading this country in the war against terror. And that's what I'll continue to try to convince the American people of, is that I'm the right person to continue to lead the country.''

The Kerry campaign, scrambling to fend off the challenge to Mr. Kerry's war record, which he has made a centerpiece of his campaign, was trying to shift the megaphone to veterans who back Mr. Kerry's version of events.

The campaign Monday organized a conference call for reporters with three men who served with Mr. Kerry, one of whom had become visible over the weekend through a letter to the editor of his hometown newspaper, The Telluride Daily Planet, in Colorado.

In the letter, the man, Jim Russell, said that he had served on the Bay Hap River with Mr. Kerry the day he won his Bronze Star and that they had come under significant enemy fire as Mr. Kerry rescued Jim Rassmann. His account contradicted that of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, who have said there was not a major firefight. "Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river," Mr Russell wrote.

Rich Baker, who served in Mr. Kerry's Swift boat division, told reporters on the conference call that Mr. Kerry was the "most aggressive officer" in charge of the Swift boats and "extremely qualified" to serve as commander in chief.

Mr. Baker pointed out that at least two of the commanders now involved with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had given Mr. Kerry glowing evaluations during his time in Vietnam. "With no disrespect to anyone out there, the whole Swift boat operation took courage and guts every time you stepped on those boats," Mr. Baker said. "But John Kerry was one step above the rest of us, in my opinion."

The third veteran, Rich McCann, noted that a photograph on the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Web site and in its book, portrays him as neutral on the question of whether Mr. Kerry is "fit for command.'' But Mr. McCann said the group had not asked him whether he believes Mr. Kerry would be an effective commander in chief - and he does. "As I said it in 1969 and I'll say it again today,'' he said, "if I had to go up a river and come under fire, I'd want John Kerry to watch my back.''

Mr. Kerry, meanwhile, called another veteran from another war, former Senator Bob Dole of Kansas, to confront him for comments he made on Sunday on CNN. Speaking to the CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, Mr. Dole, who for two decades has had a reputation as one of his party's most aggressive attackers, had argued that "there's got to be some truth to the group's charges.'' Mr. Dole, whose arm was severely injured when he served in World War II, had also questioned the severity of the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's three Purple Hearts and said Mr. Kerry should apologize for his antiwar statements of the early 1970's.

But in another interview with CNN on Monday, he said of his discussion with Mr. Kerry, "He said he was disappointed.'' Mr. Dole added, "And I said, "John, I didn't mean to offend you.' But he said he added, " 'You know, George Bush is my guy.' "

The Swift boat group, meanwhile, was explaining a connection between it and Ms. Arceneaux. Records obtained by The New York Times also list Ms. Arceneaux as an officer of a political strategy company headed by William Dal Col, who has managed Republican campaigns.

She has also been an officer of several conservative organizations, whose other officers include Deborah Steelman, a Bush adviser on health care in 2000, and Sally Atwater, whose late husband, Lee, was an architect of the famous "Willie Horton'' attack advertisement against Michael S. Dukakis when he ran against President Bush's father in 1988.

Reached at her home in Virginia, Ms. Arceneaux would say only, "I'm just a vendor,'' and referred all other questions to a spokesman for the Swift boat group, Sean McCabe.

Mr. McCabe said the post office box was associated with Ms. Arceneaux because she was handling all of the group's accounting. He said she was hired because she had a specialty in "political compliance'' but did he not say who recommended her to the group.


Elisabeth Bumiller reported from Crawford, Tex., for this article, and Kate Zernike from New York.



Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | RSS | Help | Back to Top

[Old300]

Budanski, your sources are as bogus as the SBVT, and your digressions have nothing to do with the SBVT being liars. Despite the preponderence of facts, eyewitness accounts and offical records that contradict the SBVT you remain a true believer, which is really pathetic. As one of Bush's core Republican base I wouldn't expect you to support Kerry but I would expect you to be honorable and based your opinion on the facts instead of emotions, lies and manipulation by others.

What is interesting is that you are taking a page out of the Republican play book by not only taking remarks out of context but by also attempting to spread disinformation as well. For example, you claim Kerry is suing the media to keep the commercials off the air without any proof, when in actuality it is the Republican party sending letters to the television and radio stations trying to keep a Kerry commercial off the air. Again, if you want to become a propagandist for the far right, try being a bit more adept at it.

The vast majority of veterans I am in touch with are very angry at these charges and almost to a man have not only decided to vote for Kerry but have also been energized to help his campaign by talking to others about their views.

BTW, there's yet another link between SBV and Bush; Susan Arceneaux is treasurer for Tom DeLay's Majority Leader's Fund and is listed as point person for the SBVT.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 24, 2004
VETERANS
President Urges Outside Groups to Halt All Ads
By ELISABETH BUMILLER and KATE ZERNIKE

CRAWFORD, Tex., Aug. 23 - President Bush said on Monday that political advertisements run by a broad swath of independent groups should be stopped, including a television advertisement attacking Senator John Kerry's war record. But the White House quickly moved to insist that Mr. Bush had not meant in any way to single out the advertisement run by veterans opposed to Mr. Kerry.

Mr. Bush spoke to reporters at his Texas ranch after a weekend in which veterans supporting and opposing Mr. Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, furiously debated mostly unsubstantiated accusations against him by a group calling itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

In television appearances, a book and television advertisements, these Vietnam veterans have argued that Mr. Kerry fabricated the circumstances leading to his three Purple Hearts, Bronze Star and Silver Star and discredited veterans with his antiwar statements when he returned from Vietnam three decades ago.

Asked on Monday about one of the anti-Kerry advertisements, financed largely by Texas supporters of Mr. Bush, the president said that he wanted to stop "all of them.''

"That means that ad, every other ad,'' he said.

The president spoke on a day when Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, in another indication of its web of ties to the Republican Party, acknowledged that a woman who helped set it up and works for it is an officer of the Majority Leader's Fund, a political action committee affiliated with the former House majority leader Dick Armey of Texas.

The name of the woman, Susan Arceneaux, is given as the contact person on the post office box that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth lists as its address. She is treasurer of the Majority Leader's Fund. Records show that like Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the group receives significant financing from Bob Perry, a Texan who has long supported Mr. Bush, and his company, as well as Sam and Charles Wyly, prominent Texas Republican donors. Sam Wyly, under the name "Republicans for Clean Air,'' took out advertisements in 2000 criticizing the environmental record of Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona.

Mr. Perry has donated $200,000 to the Swift boat group, records show, and Merrie Spaeth, a Republican strategist who has been advising the Swift boat group, was a spokeswoman for Sam Wyly's advertising campaign in 2000.

Mr. Bush put his remarks about the advertisement by the Swift boat group in the context of his previous calls for a ban on advertisements from third-party groups known as 527's, using large, unlimited donations. Only when pressed by reporters whether he specifically meant the commercial from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, did he say "all of them.''

"I don't think we ought to have 527's,'' Mr. Bush said, referring to independent political groups that are running advertisements on both sides of the political spectrum. "I can't be more plain about it and I wish - I hope my opponents join me in saying - condemning these activities of 527's. I think they are bad for the system.''

His press secretary, Scott McClellan, said Mr. Bush had not intended to single out the Swift boat advertisement as one that should be stopped.

With Mr. Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee, mounting a daily counterattack against the attacks on his record, Mr. Bush on Monday tried to walk a fine line.

Asked if Mr. Kerry had lied about his war record, Mr. Bush said, "Mr. Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record.'' But he did not criticize the Swift boat group or address the content of the advertisement. In recent weeks Mr. McCain has called on Mr. Bush to condemn the advertisement, as has the Kerry campaign.

A Kerry spokesman on Monday repeated that call. "Again the president did the wrong thing today,'' said Chad Clanton, a campaign spokesman. "He has refused to specifically condemn the smear campaign against John Kerry's military record.''

The dispute over the advertisement and Mr. Kerry's record has dominated the presidential race for days, even as the Republicans head into their nominating convention next week in New York City. Several Bush advisers said the protracted debate about Mr. Kerry's actions in a long-ago war is to their political advantage, even in the face of a new television advertisement from the Kerry campaign blaming Mr. Bush for the Swift boat veterans' attacks.

"The president still looks like the commander in chief, and Kerry is still competing for traction on that,'' said Terry Holt, a Bush campaign spokesman.Mr. Bush echoed that theme in his comments on Monday. Answering the first of several questions about the Swift boat advertisement, Mr. Bush ignored the query and instead responded, "I think we ought to be debating who best to be leading this country in the war against terror. And that's what I'll continue to try to convince the American people of, is that I'm the right person to continue to lead the country.''

The Kerry campaign, scrambling to fend off the challenge to Mr. Kerry's war record, which he has made a centerpiece of his campaign, was trying to shift the megaphone to veterans who back Mr. Kerry's version of events.

The campaign Monday organized a conference call for reporters with three men who served with Mr. Kerry, one of whom had become visible over the weekend through a letter to the editor of his hometown newspaper, The Telluride Daily Planet, in Colorado.

In the letter, the man, Jim Russell, said that he had served on the Bay Hap River with Mr. Kerry the day he won his Bronze Star and that they had come under significant enemy fire as Mr. Kerry rescued Jim Rassmann. His account contradicted that of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, who have said there was not a major firefight. "Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river," Mr Russell wrote.

Rich Baker, who served in Mr. Kerry's Swift boat division, told reporters on the conference call that Mr. Kerry was the "most aggressive officer" in charge of the Swift boats and "extremely qualified" to serve as commander in chief.

Mr. Baker pointed out that at least two of the commanders now involved with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had given Mr. Kerry glowing evaluations during his time in Vietnam. "With no disrespect to anyone out there, the whole Swift boat operation took courage and guts every time you stepped on those boats," Mr. Baker said. "But John Kerry was one step above the rest of us, in my opinion."

The third veteran, Rich McCann, noted that a photograph on the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Web site and in its book, portrays him as neutral on the question of whether Mr. Kerry is "fit for command.'' But Mr. McCann said the group had not asked him whether he believes Mr. Kerry would be an effective commander in chief - and he does. "As I said it in 1969 and I'll say it again today,'' he said, "if I had to go up a river and come under fire, I'd want John Kerry to watch my back.''

Mr. Kerry, meanwhile, called another veteran from another war, former Senator Bob Dole of Kansas, to confront him for comments he made on Sunday on CNN. Speaking to the CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, Mr. Dole, who for two decades has had a reputation as one of his party's most aggressive attackers, had argued that "there's got to be some truth to the group's charges.'' Mr. Dole, whose arm was severely injured when he served in World War II, had also questioned the severity of the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's three Purple Hearts and said Mr. Kerry should apologize for his antiwar statements of the early 1970's.

But in another interview with CNN on Monday, he said of his discussion with Mr. Kerry, "He said he was disappointed.'' Mr. Dole added, "And I said, "John, I didn't mean to offend you.' But he said he added, " 'You know, George Bush is my guy.' "

The Swift boat group, meanwhile, was explaining a connection between it and Ms. Arceneaux. Records obtained by The New York Times also list Ms. Arceneaux as an officer of a political strategy company headed by William Dal Col, who has managed Republican campaigns.

She has also been an officer of several conservative organizations, whose other officers include Deborah Steelman, a Bush adviser on health care in 2000, and Sally Atwater, whose late husband, Lee, was an architect of the famous "Willie Horton'' attack advertisement against Michael S. Dukakis when he ran against President Bush's father in 1988.

Reached at her home in Virginia, Ms. Arceneaux would say only, "I'm just a vendor,'' and referred all other questions to a spokesman for the Swift boat group, Sean McCabe.

Mr. McCabe said the post office box was associated with Ms. Arceneaux because she was handling all of the group's accounting. He said she was hired because she had a specialty in "political compliance'' but did he not say who recommended her to the group.


Elisabeth Bumiller reported from Crawford, Tex., for this article, and Kate Zernike from New York.



Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | RSS | Help | Back to Top

dude.

The fact that a conservative political operative engaged in a conservative political operation means nothing. Nor does it mean anything that these ads were partly financed by Texans - there are a lot of rich Republicans around here. So what?

The bottom line is that liberals (and John McCain) made their bed and now we're all lying in it. We've been treated to a bunch of liberal 527 ads for about 9 months now, and SBVT is no worse - to say the least - than, say, MoveOn.

Stop whining.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

As if there wasn't enough crap floating in the water, the NYT still pretends to be a news organization.

This continues to be fun to watch as the party of inclusion, of free expression, of the ACLU tries desperately to silence voices of dissent.

There have been attack ads against Bush all over the place, for months - and it doesn't make the papers. But one organization uses it's rights to speak out against Kerry & the "neutral and objective" press comes unglued. Front page news. You can't say that against a Democrat!!

Ever try being a conservative on a University campus? You get shouted down by the proponents of free speech - and the same thing is happening here. "You have no right to talk because you don't agree with me!"

That is the real story here - the election will come and go - but we will live with this "truth norming" for a very long time.

[mi35d]

Tired of the double standard that exists. SBV's are being attacked for not being in the area yet it's certainly fine to have Kerry's "Band of Brothers" not even being in theater at the same time he was.

Lies? Let's see..."I was in Cambodia in December 1968 - It was SEARED in my memory; in my mind. I was angry with President Nixon. We fought the K-Rouge." J. F'in Kerry.

And let's not forget that his own website was using resume data from a completely different politician - Bob Kerry

President Bush was attacked relentlessly over two National Guard drills that he attended in Alabama. "Traitor" - "AWOL" - "Coward" were words thrown about without any restraint. Where was John Kerry then?

MoveOn.Org and it's "Bush is really just a modern Hitler" ad...condemnation from the Dems? Oh, no! It was "FREE SPEECH".

The Dems have blown countless $$$ in 527 attack ads but thats o.k. - it's a 1st Amendment thing.

A group of Vets who don't like Kerry run two ads and the world is coming to an end.

Kerry as a politician and a Vet has lied, twisted, distorted or reversed his comments and decisions depending on how the wind was blowing. He is unfit to be a senator, he is a disgrace as a veteran and he should not be our next president.

[BlackRain]

John Kerry's Own Journal and Campaign Contradicts 1st Purple Award

The Kerry Campaign admitted today that it is quite possible that Kerrys first Purple Heart award was from an "unintentional self inflicted wound", this was in response to questions from Fox News. The questions related to Kerrys Journal Entry nine days after that injury that stated his boat and crew had yet to come under fire!!

How is it that the officers of Coastal Division 14 refused Kerry's first request for this Purple Heart for action but the different officers of Coastal Division 11 did approve it two months later?

If John Kerry would only release all of his records, this simple matter could be put to rest.

Who Started this whole Mess?

During an April 26, 2004 appearance on ABC's "Good Morning America" complaining about a report questioning which medals he threw away during a 1971 anti-war demonstration:

"This comes from a president and a Republican party that can't even answer whether or not he showed up for duty in the National Guard. I'm not going to stand for it," the top Democrat told GMA's Charlie Gibson.

In case anybody missed his Bush smear, Kerry repeated it two more times during the same interview:

"The Republicans are running $10 million this week to attack my credentials on defense. This comes from a president who can't even show or prove that he showed up for duty in the National Guard. . . ."

Here's Kerry's third attempt to slime Bush's Guard service in less than ten minutes:

"George Bush has yet to explain to America whether or not, and tell the truth, about whether he showed up for duty. I'm not going to get attacked on something that I did, that is a matter of record, that the press saw, that I did in front of the entire nation, and everyone then understood."

Kerry has questioned George Bush's military record many times but George Bush has never said anything negative about John Kerry's military service.

[Trigger]

The vast majority of veterans I am in touch with are very angry at these charges and almost to a man have not only decided to vote for Kerry but have also been energized to help his campaign by talking to others about their views.
I can say the exact same thing about Bush. We're from different eras, but I know a lot of vets and active duty personnel who are mobilizing too. They are not blind to the fact that the 'rats have spent over 63 million dollars in vicious attack ads calling the President every name in the book. No one says a f'ing word about those though, do they? That's not even counting the Farenheit 911 B.S.

[budanski]

Budanski, your sources are as bogus as the SBVT, and your digressions have nothing to do with the SBVT being liars. Despite the preponderence of facts, eyewitness accounts and offical records that contradict the SBVT you remain a true believer, which is really pathetic.
SBVs come with affidavits. Last checked, Kerry's lawsuits and complaints are with the stations playing the commercials and not at the charges from the SBVs themselves.

As one of Bush's core Republican base I wouldn't expect you to support Kerry but I would expect you to be honorable and based your opinion on the facts instead of emotions, lies and manipulation by others.
Honorable? Kerry was anything but that when he returned from the war. I'm not about to take the word of an admitted war criminal (also under oath) over the 250 other SBV with affadavits. If they were lying, why doesnt Kerry go after them for lying under oath? My family and community always saw Kerry as a traitor then, no different now.

[budanski]

Here are Kerry's military records and AAR's:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html
Ahem, a COMPLETE release of his military medical records and FULL intelligence committee records to the media would be nice. The Pentagon announced the other day that it had Kerry's full records but couldnt release them without permission. Kerry refuses to sign form 180.
Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/04/24/kerrys_thigh_has_shrapnel_records_show/)
The Kerry campaign removed a 20-page batch of documents yesterday from its website after The Boston Globe quoted a Navy officer who said the documents wrongly portrayed Kerry's service. Edward Peck had said he -- not Kerry -- was the skipper of Navy boat No. 94 at a time when the Kerry campaign website credited the senator with serving on the boat. The website had described Kerry's boat as being hit by rockets and said a crewmate was injured in an attack. But Peck said those events happened when he was the skipper. The campaign did not respond to a request to explain why the records were removed.


One citation was signed by Navy Sec. John Lehman 17 years after the fact. This replaced the original one. Everything about Kerry's 90 days in actual combat record is questionable and perhaps written up by himself, and signed by commanding officers well after the fact and without substantiation from fellow crew mates.

http://www.sentryoveramerica.com/Images/war_hero_versus_war_criminal_2_275w.jpg

[XASA]

"Oh, the tangled webs we weave when we practice to deceive."

Sir Walter Scott

Thanks for pointing out why many of you all still agree with the SBVT. This smear campaign has already worked because it has shored up the Bush base--you-- which was wavering; it has probably picked up other voters as well. That's what smears do. But that will prove to be a short-term gain because it has also shown the American public exactly to what lengths some people will go in order to hold onto power. One thing you should have learned by now, Americans don't like being lied to, which is why Bush's approval rating has dropped 30% in the last six months--an amazing fall from grace that has never happened in American politics.

I didn't expect any of you or the Republican Party to change its tune after playing the same old song for so long; afterall, why let the truth and logic get in the way of your core beliefs ;) What I did expect was that you wouldn't be so gullible. Vote for what you believe in and not because you are blind, deaf and dumb to reality. Since lying seems to an ingrained Republican value this election year, maybe you can even convinced people that there was WMD ;)

Also, how conveniently many of you have forgotten how much you heralded the first reports on the SBVT here on militaryphotos.net and everyone gave you a pass until the truth started coming out last week. Now, with the bullsh** reaching critical mass, you are reaching deep into the Republican grab bag of lies as if Kerry, the NY Times and the ACLU were responsible for all this crap.

Like I said, vote for who you think is the right person to lead the country for the next four years based on their records and not on lies, and when the votes are counted November 2, accept the results. I, for one, hope it will be Kerry because we, a nation built on truth, deserve better.

[Freibier]

"Oh, the tangled webs we weave when we practice to deceive."

Sir Walter Scott

Thanks for pointing out why many of you all still agree with the SBVT. This smear campaign has already worked because it has shored up the Bush base--you-- which was wavering; it has probably picked up other voters as well. That's what smears do. But that will prove to be a short-term gain because it has also shown the American public exactly to what lengths some people will go in order to hold onto power. One thing you should have learned by now, Americans don't like being lied to, which is why Bush's approval rating has dropped 30% in the last six months--an amazing fall from grace that has never happened in American politics.

I didn't expect any of you or the Republican Party to change its tune after playing the same old song for so long; afterall, why let the truth and logic get in the way of your core beliefs ;) What I did expect was that you wouldn't be so gullible. Vote for what you believe in and not because you are blind, deaf and dumb to reality. Since lying seems to an ingrained Republican value this election year, maybe you can even convinced people that there was WMD ;)

Also, how conveniently many of you have forgotten how much you heralded the first reports on the SBVT here on militaryphotos.net and everyone gave you a pass until the truth started coming out last week. Now, with the bullsh** reaching critical mass, you are reaching deep into the Republican grab bag of lies as if Kerry, the NY Times and the ACLU were responsible for all this crap.

Like I said, vote for who you think is the right person to lead the country for the next four years based on their records and not on lies, and when the votes are counted November 2, accept the results. I, for one, hope it will be Kerry because we, a nation built on truth, deserve better.
Well said woot

[XASA]

OMG, the NY Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune and now the LA Times are all conspiring against those staunch defenders of truth, justice and the American way, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ;)


LA Times 08.24.04

EDITORIAL
These Charges Are False ...
It's one thing for the presidential campaign to get nasty but quite another for it to engage in fabrication.

The technique President Bush is using against John F. Kerry was perfected by his father against Michael Dukakis in 1988, though its roots go back at least to Sen. Joseph McCarthy. It is: Bring a charge, however bogus. Make the charge simple: Dukakis "vetoed the Pledge of Allegiance"; Bill Clinton "raised taxes 128 times"; "there are [pick a number] Communists in the State Department." But make sure the supporting details are complicated and blurry enough to prevent easy refutation.

Then sit back and let the media do your work for you. Journalists have to report the charges, usually feel obliged to report the rebuttal, and often even attempt an analysis or assessment. But the canons of the profession prevent most journalists from saying outright: These charges are false. As a result, the voters are left with a general sense that there is some controversy over Dukakis' patriotism or Kerry's service in Vietnam. And they have been distracted from thinking about real issues (like the war going on now) by these laboratory concoctions.

It must be infuriating to the victims of this process to be given conflicting advice about how to deal with it from the same campaign press corps that keeps it going. The press has been telling Kerry: (a) Don't let charges sit around unanswered; and (b) stick to your issues: Don't let the other guy choose the turf.

At the moment, Kerry is being punished by the media for taking advice (b) and failing to take advice (a). There was plenty of talk on TV about what Kerry's failure to strike back said about whether he had the backbone for the job of president — and even when he did strike back, he was accused of not doing it soon enough. But what does Bush's acquiescence in the use of this issue say about whether he has the simple decency for the job of president?

Whether the Bush campaign is tied to the Swift boat campaign in the technical, legal sense that triggers the wrath of the campaign-spending reform law is not a very interesting question. The ridiculously named Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is being funded by conservative groups that interlock with Bush's world in various ways, just as MoveOn.org, which is running nasty ads about Bush's avoidance of service in Vietnam, is part of Kerry's general milieu.

More important, either man could shut down the groups working on his behalf if he wanted to. Kerry has denounced the MoveOn ads, with what degree of sincerity we can't know. Bush on Monday — finally — called for all ads by independent groups on both sides to be halted. He also said Kerry had "served admirably" in Vietnam. But he declined an invitation to condemn the Swift boat effort.

In both cases, the candidates are the reason the groups are in business. There is an important difference, though, between the side campaign being run for Kerry and the one for Bush. The pro-Kerry campaign is nasty and personal. The pro-Bush campaign is nasty, personal and false.

No informed person can seriously believe that Kerry fabricated evidence to win his military medals in Vietnam. His main accuser has been exposed as having said the opposite at the time, 35 years ago. Kerry is backed by almost all those who witnessed the events in question, as well as by documentation. His accusers have no evidence except their own dubious word.

Not limited by the conventions of our colleagues in the newsroom, we can say it outright: These charges against John Kerry are false. Or at least, there is no good evidence that they are true. George Bush, if he were a man of principle, would say the same thing.

[Tane Angle]

So anyone else hear about that Cheney staffer being in the SVT ad? Real unrelated to the Administration. :|

[Old300]

So anyone else hear about that Cheney staffer being in the SVT ad? Real unrelated to the Administration. :|

Do any of y'all have any idea how incestuous political campaigns are? Anyone?

There are not thousands of politically savvy idealogues who each work for only one person in one campaign, forever.

There are a few dozen guys on either side who are capable of running a national political ad campaign, and you see their names over and over again, first for one candidate or cause, then for another, for decades on end.

I guarantee you that somebody involved with the MoveOn ads was once a staffer for either Kerry, Edwards, or the DNC. And you know what? That doesn't mean a damn thing.

I mean, this is absolutely basic stuff. Concluding that the ads were coordinated with the Bush campaign based on 6-degrees of separation aides and donors would be like me looking at some Czech damn rifle that y'all probably know every God's thing about and saying, "Wow. What a nice pistol!"

[fokket]

Budanski, your sources are as bogus as the SBVT, and your digressions have nothing to do with the SBVT being liars. Despite the preponderence of facts, eyewitness accounts and offical records that contradict the SBVT you remain a true believer, which is really pathetic.
SBVs come with affidavits. Last checked, Kerry's lawsuits and complaints are with the stations playing the commercials and not at the charges from the SBVs themselves.

Are you sure???

[Old300]

Budanski, your sources are as bogus as the SBVT, and your digressions have nothing to do with the SBVT being liars. Despite the preponderence of facts, eyewitness accounts and offical records that contradict the SBVT you remain a true believer, which is really pathetic.
SBVs come with affidavits. Last checked, Kerry's lawsuits and complaints are with the stations playing the commercials and not at the charges from the SBVs themselves.

Are you sure???

yep

[fokket]

Here are Kerry's military records and AAR's:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html
Ahem, a COMPLETE release of his military medical records and FULL intelligence committee records to the media would be nice. The Pentagon announced the other day that it had Kerry's full records but couldnt release them without permission. Kerry refuses to sign form 180.
Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/04/24/kerrys_thigh_has_shrapnel_records_show/)
The Kerry campaign removed a 20-page batch of documents yesterday from its website after The Boston Globe quoted a Navy officer who said the documents wrongly portrayed Kerry's service. Edward Peck had said he -- not Kerry -- was the skipper of Navy boat No. 94 at a time when the Kerry campaign website credited the senator with serving on the boat. The website had described Kerry's boat as being hit by rockets and said a crewmate was injured in an attack. But Peck said those events happened when he was the skipper. The campaign did not respond to a request to explain why the records were removed.


One citation was signed by Navy Sec. John Lehman 17 years after the fact. This replaced the original one. Everything about Kerry's 90 days in actual combat record is questionable and perhaps written up by himself, and signed by commanding officers well after the fact and without substantiation from fellow crew mates.

http://www.sentryoveramerica.com/Images/war_hero_versus_war_criminal_2_275w.jpg

Funny, I know a guy who has actually gone through all that and he has stated that Kerry's document and they all turn out to be true.

That sentry over America WND are far right papers, it is highly likely that there can be distortions on their opposition. That Kerry comment on the pic that you posted is highly doubtful. I'm sure Kerry is smart enough to not to say such thing to him.

Now, there has been serious concern for vet care and such. A lot of military buds are telling me how the vet care is screwed up. Vet hospitals are shutting down and losing on fundings. Military pay rate is not keeping up with the living price although it's going up in no's. Now explain me that.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820swift_graph.gif

[Old300]

Here are Kerry's military records and AAR's:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html
Ahem, a COMPLETE release of his military medical records and FULL intelligence committee records to the media would be nice. The Pentagon announced the other day that it had Kerry's full records but couldnt release them without permission. Kerry refuses to sign form 180.
Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/04/24/kerrys_thigh_has_shrapnel_records_show/)
The Kerry campaign removed a 20-page batch of documents yesterday from its website after The Boston Globe quoted a Navy officer who said the documents wrongly portrayed Kerry's service. Edward Peck had said he -- not Kerry -- was the skipper of Navy boat No. 94 at a time when the Kerry campaign website credited the senator with serving on the boat. The website had described Kerry's boat as being hit by rockets and said a crewmate was injured in an attack. But Peck said those events happened when he was the skipper. The campaign did not respond to a request to explain why the records were removed.


One citation was signed by Navy Sec. John Lehman 17 years after the fact. This replaced the original one. Everything about Kerry's 90 days in actual combat record is questionable and perhaps written up by himself, and signed by commanding officers well after the fact and without substantiation from fellow crew mates.

http://www.sentryoveramerica.com/Images/war_hero_versus_war_criminal_2_275w.jpg

Funny, I know a retired Navy guy who has actually gone through all that and he has stated that Kerry's document and they all turn out to be true. Also added

That sentry over America WND are far right papers, it is highly likely that there can be distortions on their opposition. That Kerry comment on the pic that you posted is highly doubtful. I'm sure Kerry is smart enough to not to say such thing to him.

Now, there has been serious concern for vet care and such. A lot of military buds are telling me how the vet care is screwed up. Vet hospitals are shutting down and losing on fundings. Military pay rate is not keeping up with the living price although it's going up in no's. Now explain me that.

Several times now I've posted links to the 2003 budget line items dealing with VA benefits and military pay, and the upshot is that both are increasing at rates above inflation (which isn't hard to do when inflation stands at a less-than-staggering 1.4%). There probably ought to be a law that says ours soldiers must make twice the minimum pay of an IRS clerk and 3 times the wages of a congressional staff assistant, but... Bush hasn't gutted the VA or military pay.

[fokket]

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=803

I will leave this article to you to be judged, I haven't read it yet.

This is a cut N paste from another forum.



Here is my opinion and it will surely piss you all off ... so be it. My name has Abu in it so what will you care?

This video IS devastating! Devastating bull**** ... my meter is pegged to the max! That ad is pretty ****ed up ... I didn't risk my life for twenty four years to have this kind of crap put on the air as "fact" about a former serviceman. What is America now?? A one sided communist dictatorship?? According to their website these guys were in Swiftboats in Vietnam but never served on his ship or under his direct command except in an oblique way (they say "Yeah my boat was down the pier from Kerry's ... I radio'd him under way and was on the same op ... with thirty other boats." There were ****ing hundreds of Swiftboats over 10 years in Vietnam ... there were over three thousand of Swift crewmen. I rode one of the last of the Swiftboats and a SeaFox off Beirut for a day in 1983 so does that qualify me to make a anti-Kerry ad?? or if you stood were assigned to paint the one on display at the Naval Academy does that qualify?? WTF?? If I follow their logic then I was in the military when Colin Powell was but lets cut the bull**** ... that doesn't mean I "served" with him. I even shook his hand once but does that mean I can call him unfit to command because it was sweaty? Oh wait, I took his challenge coin ... does that mean I know him "intimately??" No matter what you think of Kerry NO ONE SHOULD QUESTION HIS PATRIOTISM OR SERVICE. Kerry's awards and injuries have been documented for over 30 years in his DD-214, NavMed and the Bureau of Naval Personnel records and now these ****wads say thats all bull**** and only they know the truth because they were getting laid in Cam Rahn at the same time and only remembered it in the election of 2004?? How convienient! Who the **** are these assholes to suddenly revise documented history? Oh, so the doctor who treated him suddenly remembers specifically every wounded who entered his clinic ... in Vietnam?? Does he remember that the metal splinter that hit Kerry's arm and slightly wounded him could have hit him two inches to the left and ****ing killed him ... I can't even remember by Division Officer's names from two months ago! This guy remmebers EVERYTHING ... he's Svengali!

This is a cheap hack job. They did the same thing to John McCain in the 2000 primary ... they said he broke under torture and was a communist spy and collaborated with the NVA and Jane Fonda. they even said he got laid in Hanoi and had an illigitimate child with a NVA guard. I read McCain's classified ****ing debrief and personally spoke to Admiral Stockdale about it ... Stockdale loves him (McCain) and says not one person could have endured what he went through (the "ropes" and extended special session for turning down the offer to be exploited) ... everyone broke ... he still resisted exploitation and turned down several offers of early release when some other Navy, Marine and Air Force officers collaborated and took them. McCain is a ****ing hero and HE says this ad is "disgusting and dishonorable" ... if this type of political bull**** is what I fought to protect all these years, nearly got my ass blasted at the Pentagon on 9/11 and risked my nuts in Afghanistan and Iraq then we have really lost what I thought America values are.

Are we a country of win-at-all-costs neo-commie-lite jerkoffs who don't give a toss to fair-play and will **** over anyone to win this election?? (LFer's don't answer that) Did Bill Clinton's blowjob really piss these numb nuts off so bad that we act like our enemies? What next? Kill him because you don't like his tie or his wife's big ass? My father, brothers and I have over 100 years of combined military service and this ad pisses all over it. God forbid I ever run for dog catcher because according to today's political rules some asshole E-2 who was under me for a light duty detail mopping floors didn't like a letter of counseling I may have written for sleeping late will call me a traitor 30 years from now? So I guess we would have ****ed Grant (He NEVER drank or was ever drunk during the civil war), TR Roosevelt (He DID take San Juan Hill ... in a joint attack with the Buffalo Soldiers), Eisenhower (He DID **** his hot female driver) and Kennedy (He had an At-sea collison with the enemy ... if he wasn't dead he would be still eligible for courts martial). According to standard they were unfit because they all have questions in their combat record from people who hated them. Some of you "patriots" who were not there toss words like "Duty," "Honor" and hip phrases like "Support the Troops" need to re-evaluate what the **** those words means to you. When the SF officer who's life he saved by jumping in that nasty water and dragged his wounded ass out while under fire (SBV's say it was "light enemy fire" ... **** I came under light enemy fire in Baghdad and like "friendly fire" it ain't friendly or light when its at your ass!) came out after 30 years and thanked him in public and swore it was all true to the award write up ... that was enough for me. No one else can say a ****ing word about it with any credibility. Not me, not you and definately not these Swift boat ****-offs. For those who know better than the rest of us ... knock yourself out crying foul and beat up on the buckwheat if it makes you feel good.

Putting American Foot to Al Qaeda Ass since 1991.

I guess this is just the way partisan politics are these days ... I WAS a 20 year Republican until I saw the bull**** pulled on McCain in 2000 ... As a REAL Republican I'd like to vote for McCain as a write in but I will vote who whoever I think will keep an airplane from dropping on top of me ... AGAIN ... but back to this bull**** video ... all of Kerry's crew (9 members) are on television standing behind him saying the same thing and calling SBVAK lying assholes ... who is right? They say Kerry did what he says he did ... so does the victim of the incident ... they are eyewitnesses a few meters from each other ... everyone else has just an opinion over coffee. Who to believe eyewitnesses or lying assholes with a grudge. Now if SBVAK KNOWINGLY DO NOT TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH OR STRETCH THE TRUTH OR MAKE UP **** JUST TO **** HIM OVER or to WIN AN ELECTION then they are the liars. I have no respect for them but they do have my continued sworn duty to prtect them and their opinions from suicide bombers and crazy terrorists militia men building truck bombs. That doctor is a work of art because he was the one who filled out the paperwork ... there are no do overs when you get shot or struck by shrapnel ... I live very near Walter Reed and a few clicks from Bethesda and I'd be glad to go over and ask all of the hundreds of the 6 thousand Purple heart reciepients if they "fully qualify" or "partially qualify" for the PH. They'd kick my ass with their good legs if they have any! Half the nurses at Reed were "lightly" wounded. There is no seriousness of wounds qualification ... an enemy hit needing attention from medical (not even a doctor), including pulling shrapnel slivers out of arms = PH medal. Walking wounded, casually wounded, critically wounded is all wounded. It says so in black and White in NAVREGS and any other military reg you'd care to check out. Nixon tried to screw over Kennedy for losing PT-109 all the while he was a supply officer on an oiler in Hawaii ... get the drift ... its petty and its bull**** and we as vets need to help stop it. Oh by the way ... General Tommy Franks, just two days ago on Neil Cavuto said he agreed with Kerry that during Vietnam atrocities occurred that would be considered war crimes ... he agreed they were consistent with what Kerry said in his congressional testimony. Kerry didn't piss on my brothers that were in Vietnam or my Three-War Father ... from what I have seen on CSPAN (the full testimony) he just told it like he saw it and most other soldiers saw it ... they all agree with his testimony or are we brainwashed to believe American soldiers better than that so it can't be true? That doesn't mean they will vote for him but on one point they think he told the truth in that specific testimony. They teach incidents of atrocities in US history and Vietnam in West Point so where is the lie?? Jesus just today a soldier in Iraq admitted to torture "because it was fun." Dude, its my opinion so let it ride ...

Putting American Foot to Al Qaeda Ass since 1991.

I turn all of these questions around on you guys ... why is this worthy of national TV time and billed as a fact?? Why not just say "I hate Kerry and this is why." I can respect that and buy you a beer. I could even be persuades to say the same. The reason I call SBVAK liars is because the same tactics has been used several times againt anyone who opposes Bush ... especially other Republicans who cross them ... when its finally investigated it turns out to be untrue or "near-true" to the point of being a lie ... most time just made up. Beaver Trapper if you've got a problem with my calling the Commander in Chief a liar then I guess this ain't America and the Constitution has been suspended. Dude, get out of 18th century England there is no King here ... it's America man and nothing is more American than dissing the CINC when he screws up. I'll do it to his face. I have sat in some hot places and cursed Reagan, GB1, Clinton and GB2 equally. People, in the military on active duty diss'ed Clinton for getting elected and called him a liar well before Monica so don't go pious on me. Oh and since when in America must we swear a loyalty oath that is now required for all Bush-Cheney events? WTF?? I am just sick of this as a tactic on both sides but this video is WORSE than Michael Moore as it is supported officially by the GWB campaign and the RNC and is being played on TV FREE. If we lose this election over some stupid **** like this Ad then I will come right here on LF and be sure to say I told you so. If you agree with them send them money exercise your freedoms - Irespect that ... I'll do the same by calling them dirty rat-****s.

Putting American Foot to Al Qaeda Ass since 1991.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Jeezus take a look at this graphic - brought to you by the fine folks at the NYT.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820swift_graph.gif

rofl

By using the same rigorous standards that the Times has employed - you could f'ing draw a little gray line from ME to the swiftvets. I got an email signed by Carl Rove...so I guess that makes me part of the whole conspiracy. "Associates" - "Clients" - what a pile of crap.

Where are the nifty graphics detailing the incestuous relationships between the DNC, moveon.org, the ACLU, the Rainbow Coalition, etc. etc.? I guess that's OK because they follow the medias agenda. A bit of a double standard, no?

[priccobe]

http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/images/infographicfull.jpg

[priccobe]

Top Individual Contributors to 527 Committees: http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527indivs.asp?cycle=2004

527 Committee Activity (in dollars): http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527cmtes.asp?level=C&cycle=2004

Don't see the Swiftboat Vets in there!

[BlackRain]

POW and Medal of Honor Winner Disputes McCain and Kerry

Col. Geo. "Bud" Day Medal of Honor
Vietanm POW 1967-1973
Attorney 1949-2004


Col. Larson ( http://www.soft-vision.com/hanoi/larson) wrote:
mmcgrath62 ( http://www.nampows.org/) wrote:
"P.O.W. Network (http://www.pownetwork.org/) wrote:


Dear Joe Scarborough:

About John Kerry for President..and the Swiftboat vets

The major issue in the Swiftboat stories is, and always has been, what John Kerry did in 1971 after he returned from Vietnam.

Kerry cast a long dark shadow over all Vietnam Veterans with his outright
perjury before the Senate concerning atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies..fabrications..perjury..fantasies, with NO substance. That dark shadow has defamed the entire Vietnam War veteran population, and gave "Aid and Comfort" to our enemies..the Vietnamese Communists.

Kerry's stories were outright fabrications, and were intended for political
gain with the radical left..McGovern, Teddy and Bobby Kennedy followers, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and the radical left who fantasized that George McGovern was going to be elected in 1972. Little wonder that returning soldiers from Vietnam were spit upon and castigated as "baby killers". A returned hero just said so.

Kerry cut a dashing figure as a war hero, lots of medals, and returned home because of multiple war wounds..even a silver star. His senate testimony confirmed what every hippie had been chanting on the streets.."Hey hey LBJ..How many kids did you kill today"? Kerry obviously was really running for political office, without announcing it...in 1971.

Until John O'Neill, himself a Swiftboat Commander, spoke out before the 1972 election against Kerry's outright deceptions, there was no one from the Swiftboat scene that could contradict Kerry' self serving lies.

I was a POW of the Vietnamese in Hanoi in 1971, and am aware that the
testimony of John Kerry, the actions of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, and the radical left; all caused the Commies to conclude that if they hung on..they would win.

North Vietnamese General Bui Tin commented that every day the Communist leadership listened to world news over the radio to follow the growth of the anti-war movement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark gave them confidence to hold in the face of battlefield reverses. The guts of it was that propaganda from the anti-war group was part of the Commie combat strategy.

While the Commies were hanging on, innumerable U.S. soldiers, sailors,
marines and air force members were being killed in combat. Every battle wound to Americans after Kerry's misdirected testimony is related to Kerry's untruthfulness. John Kerry contributed to every one of these deaths with his lies about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He likewise defamed the U.S. to our allies and our supporters.

His conduct also extended the imprisonment of the Vietnamese POWs, of which I was one. I am certain of at least one POW death after his testimony, which might have been prevented with an earlier release of the POWs some 2 years after his 1971 testimony.

My friend and roommate Senator John S. McCain denounced the Swiftboat video by John O'Neill. I have a different opinion than my good friend John McCain.

The Swiftboat tape is highly relevant evidence that replies directly to John
Kerry's ongoing series of misrepresentation, and those tapes and the cable news shows are the only major contradictions to Kerry's postulating as a war hero.

The print press..Washington Post, NY Times, etc are avoiding the Swiftboat story because they want a democratic president.

John Kerry opened up his character as a war hero reporting for duty (Dem Convention), with a hand salute..and his band of brothers.. of which he was the chief hero. Most of his convention speech was about John Kerry..Vietnam war hero, and his band of brothers, John Kerry's character is not only fair game, it is the primary issue. His response to Swiftboats is like Bill Clinton's "is", as an answer to his lack of character.

The issue is trust. Can anyone trust John Kerry?? "Never lie, cheat, or
steal" is the West Point motto. Should we elect another proven liar to lead us in wartime???

I draw a direct comparison to General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement and his direct liason with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward. Political gain. Senator. United States.

His record as a senator for twenty years has been pitiful. Conjure up, if
you will, one major bill that he has sponsored.

John Kerry for President? Ridiculous. Unthinkable. Unbelievable. Outrageous.

Col. Geo. "Bud" Day Medal of Honor
Vietanm POW 1967-1973
Attorney 1949-2004

[budanski]

"Oh, the tangled webs we weave when we practice to deceive."
" I think a lot of veterans are going to be very angry at a president who can't account for his own service in the National Guard."

-John Kerry May 2004

"Those of us who were in the military wonder how it is that someone who is supposedly serving on active duty, having taken that oath, can miss a whole year of service without even explaining where it went,"

-John Kerry Nov 2000

“They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam...we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam.”

-John Kerry Apr 1971

Funny how the war hero waited till he got home to make these statements and not objected while over there.

[Secret Squirrel]

[size=18]“They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam...we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam.”

-John Kerry Apr 1971

Funny how the war hero waited till he got home to make these statements and not objected while over there.

Funny how you're too stupid to realize that those are the things that came up while he was talkng with other veterans after he got back. ;)

[priccobe]

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."

-- John Kerry, on NBC's "Meet the Press" April 18, 1971

[budanski]

Funny how you're too stupid to realize that those are the things that came up while he was talkng with other veterans after he got back. ;)
And your too stupid to know that the guy that told him, Al Hubbard, turned out to be a fraud and wasnt even in 'nam.

Kerry confessed to killing civilians, yet stuck to the "Nuremberg defense" saying that it was "a commonplace occurrence throughout the Vietnam". He said he was carried out the policy “with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”*

So are you denying his smear on all who were fighting there at the time? Kerry has never renounced the charges he made, why should he expect Bush?

MEET THE PRESS (http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/4772030/)
MR. KERRY (Vietnam Veterans Against the War): There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

[Secret Squirrel]

Funny how you're too stupid to realize that those are the things that came up while he was talkng with other veterans after he got back. ;)
And your too stupid to know that the guy that told him, Al Hubbard, turned out to be a fraud and wasnt even in 'nam.

So are you denying his smear on all who were fighting there at the time? Kerry has never renounced the charges he made, why should he expect Bush?

Ignorance is bliss so you must be one happy monkey. ;) Surely you're not denying that certain less favorable things occured during the Vietnam war? (reposting things that have already been discussed wont win you any points either. ;) )

[budanski]

(reposting things that have already been discussed wont win you any points either. ;) )
Yeah, but mine came with a link. ;)

[chauncy republicans]

Surely you're not denying that certain less favorable things occured during the Vietnam war?
Funny how you did'nt bother answering his question, but you can find the time for child like bull****...Stupid Squirrel wrote: :roll: Yeah, you'r a real winner Budanski.

[mobster]

C. repub, you sound like a French poet with a little mustache and a purple beret sipping coffee.

Underneath the skin and jewelry, hidden in her words and eyes

It's obvious that Kerry takes no stance on anything, he's just trying to avoid more exposure from his f-ups in the past. The facts speak for themselves. Let it go.

[chauncy republicans]

C. repub, you sound like a French poet with a little mustache and a purple beret sipping coffee.

Underneath the skin and jewelry, hidden in her words and eyes

It's obvious that Kerry takes no stance on anything, he's just trying to avoid more exposure from his f-ups in the past. The facts speak for themselves. Let it go.
I can't wait until California falls off the map so **** like you can get flushed away in to the Pacific. What the hell does John Kerry have to do with my comments anyway?

[moughoun]

C. repub, you sound like a French poet with a little mustache and a purple beret sipping coffee.

Underneath the skin and jewelry, hidden in her words and eyes

It's obvious that Kerry takes no stance on anything, he's just trying to avoid more exposure from his f-ups in the past. The facts speak for themselves. Let it go.
I can't wait until California falls off the map so **** like you can get flushed away in to the Atlantic. What the hell does John Kerry have to do with my comments anyway?


Pacific! ;) although in his case I share the sentiment

[California Joe]

"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?....." p-)

[moughoun]

"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?....." p-)

damn yes!! p-)

[OB Kenobi]

I ask again, is being AWOL a criminal offense? Why isn't Bush under official investigation by the DOJ?

[Hot Lips]

Top Individual Contributors to 527 Committees: http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527indivs.asp?cycle=2004

527 Committee Activity (in dollars): http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527cmtes.asp?level=C&cycle=2004

Don't see the Swiftboat Vets in there!

I'm not sure what your point is on that. That the SBV's spent/received less money than other 527's? Was that an issue?

What did the other organizations do? What lies were told and proven through something other than hear say?

[Trigger]

I ask again, is being AWOL a criminal offense? Why isn't Bush under official investigation by the DOJ?
Probably because they know it's a bull**** charge too.

[mobster]

From: Linda Eddy

To: Jim Boyd

Cc: Sean Hannity ; Rush Limbaugh ; Matt Drudge,

Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 1:03 PM

Subject: Re: the silencing has got to stop!


You are further proof of the silencing of any dissenting view on what John Kerry really said back in 1971. You are further proof of the denial of Freedom of Speech to those with whom you disagree.

I just hate it when Media like you continue to promote lies. John Kerry's whole testimony was NOT an appeal on behalf of veterans. Kerry accused American troops in Vietnam of committing henious, barbaric, criminal acts on a regular, daily basis. He lied about American troops in Vietnam, he lied about what was happening in Vietnam, he lied about going into Cambodia on Christmas 1968... As the veterans say, Kerry lied while good men died. The fact is that American soldiers hated Kerry back in 1971 for what he falsely testified about them, and still hate Kerry to this day for these lies.

Kerry was a part of the meeting in Detroit, Michigan, where Veterans Against the War through the financial support of Jane Fonda and her friends (in something that has come to be known as Winter Soldier) gathered the information that Kerry gave before the Senate committee in 1971.

It has since been proven that most (if not all) of that personal testimony was not true and many giving testimony were not veterans. Furthermore, most of those who were veterans had not been to Vietnam. It has further been proven that among Kerry's board members of Veterans Against the War most had not been to Vietnam and many of them lied about their service record.

Then there is this whopper by Kerry - John Kerry said on April 18, 1971 on NBC's "Meet the Press":

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages."

If it were true, then Kerry is a war criminal.

The real great lie is that there is a free, fair and objective press. You have once again proven that is not true. You, the press and John Kerry continue to silence America's Vietnam veterans. This henious denial of Freedom of Speech must stop.

I will see what I can do to share your denial of truth and handling of a dissenting view with the rest of the world.

By the way, my cartoons have been chosen for exhibition by the Arizona State Museum of Art for the exhibit "Art and Democracy" -- the location of the last presidential debate.

sincerely,

Linda Eddy
political cartoonist for www.iowapresidentialwatch.com
_________________


Via email, ouch.

[XASA]

I ask again, is being AWOL a criminal offense? Why isn't Bush under official investigation by the DOJ?
Probably because they know it's a bull**** charge too.

Damn, Trigger, we agree on something ;)

[chauncy republicans]

C. repub, you sound like a French poet with a little mustache and a purple beret sipping coffee.

Underneath the skin and jewelry, hidden in her words and eyes

It's obvious that Kerry takes no stance on anything, he's just trying to avoid more exposure from his f-ups in the past. The facts speak for themselves. Let it go.
I can't wait until California falls off the map so **** like you can get flushed away in to the Atlantic. What the hell does John Kerry have to do with my comments anyway?


Pacific! ;) although in his case I share the sentiment
:oops: Damn I can be one dumbass mutherfuker sometimes. :cantbeli:

[Hot Lips]

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages."

I don't remember if I posted this elsewhere. I read that shooting in a free fire zone is not neccessarily a crime. That harassment and interdiction fire are not neccessarily a crime. That the rules say a weapon OVER 50 calibre would be wrong. And that search and destroy missions and even the burning of villages is not neccessarily a crime if they are military targets.

John Kerry may have felt personally that these things were crimes - but from what I've read the military doesn't neccessarily consider them crimes. My interpretation of his statement was that Kerry was making a statement about the leadership at that time and their tactics - that the soldiers were their pawns - doing their dirty work. That the leadership was reasponsible for what was going on at the time. No?

Are these things he "confessed" to actually documented war crimes?

Does anyone here deny these things happened? To say Kerry lied is to say such things didn't happen during that war. That none of these things took place. I've never read where he said that ALL soldiers behaved this way. I read that he said these things happened daily - but I've never read that he said these things happened in a large volume each day. There sure are a lot of books, movies, and documentaries that say these things happened. Is it all fantasy?

[Trigger]

I ask again, is being AWOL a criminal offense? Why isn't Bush under official investigation by the DOJ?
Probably because they know it's a bull**** charge too.

Damn, Trigger, we agree on something ;)

touche ;)

I'm sure there's lots of things we agree on and I really wish this election were over so we could all go back to being friends and picking on the Canadians again. :D

Note to Canadians: It was only a joke.