Dutch government officially departs from Multiculturism

[JJHH]

Friday 17 June 2011


Dutch society and its values must take precedence and integration policy should go, home affairs minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament on Thursday evening during the presentation of his integration bill.


Donner spoke of a 'change of direction' in which the government 'will distance itself from the relativism contained in the model of a multicultural society'. Society changes, he said, but must not be 'interchangeable with any other form of society', according to press reports.

Source: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/06/multiculturalism_must_go_donne.php

[BLUE THOR]

Perhaps this is the beginning of the swing back from the Left...

I dont find this very suprising

[scttgillies]

Well done Netherlands.

[Itamajus2]

The tolerance crowd will not be amused not to talk about representatives of some "cultures".

[Al-Bundy]

"When in Rome do as the Romans".

[JJHH]

"When in Rome do as the Romans".

Excellent attitude. Enjoy Holland!

[pocoloco]

Perhaps this is the beginning of the swing back from the Left...

I dont find this very suprising

The Perussuomalaiset (True Finns for you anglophones) party here in Finland, very strongly opposing multicultural society, post-modernism in art etc are, of course, quite a conservative party but according to this kind of four field analysis where the opposites are conservatism<->liberalism and leftist ideology<->right wing ideology, they fall more to the left. Sounds bit like "good" old NS of 3rd Reich?

[BafuD]

Well done Netherlands... I hope this trend continues around Europe.

[SineJustitia]

Perhaps this is the beginning of the swing back from the Left...

Although you are de facto right, it's surprising to see how many lefties or liberals actually oppose multiculturalism. After all, multiculturalism is conservative at best, but in most cases even reactionary. The real surprise is why lefties fell for the whole multi-culti BS in the first place.

More on this:
http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/2003/terror060203.htm

So kudo's for getting rid of the multiculti society, but... saying we will get "Dutch values" in stead, is not very specific. Let's wait and see who will define what those values exactly are.

[Jµµso]

Sounds bit like "good" old NS of 3rd Reich?

I didn't vote them and I am against so called "multicultural society".

[0rphie]

I want an example where multiculturalism works

[RSone]

Donner is a pretty conservative christian, he's from the Christian Democrats, he's been Justice Minister, Social Affairs Minister, and now Minister of Internal Affairs. Whenever he says something, you can bet people will listen.

[Derbedeu]

I want an example where multiculturalism works

The U.S.A.

[Sarig]

The U.S.A.

What, the country where most people think learning a second language is a complete waste of time? ;)

[randir14]

What, the country where most people think learning a second language is a complete waste of time? ;)
Yeah, including the illegal immigrants who never learn english.

[tercio67]

All departments are having to cut costs under the reduced budget.


It is not the government's job to integrate immigrants......

It's about money saving by no longer funding social/integration programmes. Most of those top down initiatives didn't work all too well anyway.

[Al-Bundy]

All departments are having to cut costs under the reduced budget.



It's about money saving by no longer funding social/integration programmes. Most of those top down initiatives didn't work all too well anyway.

Since we are in the subject.
Does the state provide free dutch language courses for newcomers?

[tercio67]

Since we are in the subject.
Does the state provide free dutch language courses for newcomers?

Nope, not for free.

[Createdeemcee]

Yeah, including the illegal immigrants who never learn english.

Brilliant!

[G-AWZT]

Hallelujah!!!!

[CPL Trevoga]

Yeah, including the illegal immigrants who never learn english.

How did those illegals got here in the first place? USA spend as much as the whole ****ING WORLD on the weapons and the military and the feds can't control the border. Give me a break.

[Umbro2914]

How did those illegals got here in the first place? USA spend as much as the whole ****ING WORLD on the weapons and the military and the feds can't control the border. Give me a break.

we're not serious about defending the border. more concerned with the border between a-stan and pakistan

[armored_diplomacy]

Perhaps this is the beginning of the swing back from the Left...

I dont find this very suprising

x 2
I´d dare to say it´s an "enough !" feeling, and depending where you are, the same will happen with "tolerance to anything", "human rights to the extreme", etc.

[Sumadinac]

Are they going to do something against multiculturalism? Seems like empty words...

[RSone]

Are they going to do something against multiculturalism? Seems like empty words...

I suppose so, but the government's change in policy is more of a counter to cultural relativism, which leads to multiculturalism.

[TheBelgian]

I thought the headline said "The Dutch government officially departs from Multicam". I'm spending too much time on this forum.

[IconOfEvi]

The U.S.A.

Au contriare, our model worked because we so insisted on an AMERICAN indentity above all else. When we decided not to, to value every culture the same as our own, instead of all beneath us, was when all went to hell. Good intentions, bad consequences

[Mordoror]

I want an example where multiculturalism works
USA ??

At least it is the model that was sold to us, eurowussies, as a working example of melting pot and multiculturalism, conveniently forgetting what we do not shares the same country, the same hsitory, the same rules, the same social policy and so on and so on ....

[tercio67]

Multiculturalism tends to work, and has done so for centuries. Where it generaly goes belly-up is when governments, driven by a desire to be seen doing something, start to tinker with the concept.

[OnTheRocks]

That same headline in a Swedish newspaper would have meant that we're becoming an extension of the caliphate

[Berwickk]

Hope this actually changes something and isn't just all talk and as for a successful case of multiculturalism, the way I view it is a lot like communism, sounds absolutely fantastic in theory....need I say more?

[UJB]

I think there's a big gap between multiculturalism and "multiculturalism" -- in it's true form, yes, the U.S. has been a very good case of how multiculutralism works (not without friction, but not that badly either), although to a degree multiculturalism has happened in most every country. It has worked up until recently because it has had to -- we are by our nature a very multicultural society, and our society bears the marks of this and always has -- we are far from homogenous, but every immigrant (and native) group in this country has had to adapt to the reality of the place, heretofore. There have always been, and always will be, the case of the hyphenated American; however, the goal was to emphasize the second part of that hyphen, the "American" part, with the first part merely being a descriptor, not the thing itself. Eventually even that over time goes the way of the dodo, and you wind up being merely an American from several different cultural backgrounds, as is the case with many third and fourth generation Americans. (I say third, because by that point you do start to see intermarriage between different groups with resulting children who are not of one particular group or another).

This points to the telling difference between true multiculturalism and "multicultralism": "multiculturalism" as proposed by certain groups is nothing more than the creation of special groups which are ascribed victimhood status, and which has upset the applecart of our society by upsetting the notion of equal status under a rule of law in a constitutional republic based on certain democratic ideals. That sort of multiculturalism is an abject failure, and I'm not so sure there weren't some who wanted just that sort of outcome.

It is unfortunate that the second form has taken the field so to speak, and sullied the true origins of the word.

[HellToupee]

What is the other path from multiculturalism? An enforced mono culture? Way i see it any free society is multicultural culture is always changing evolving to not be multicultural would require some pretty draconian measures.

Its more a case of people being anti immigration than anti culture.

[RSone]

Donner doesn't exactly say multiculturalism should dissapear, he argued against relativism. You'll never be able to completely extinguish the culture of immigrants, no matter how dutchified they get. However, as the 'aboriginal' people of The Netherlands, the 'culture' and valuesystem of the Dutch people should take precedence. The problem then becomes that years and years of top down efforts to bury that culture and removing ways to exhibit patriotism, because that was dangerously close to nationalism, and nationalism was bad, have made such a dare I say ethno-centric move back to our heritage rather difficult, because most of us don't really have a clue as to what our heritage really consists of.

[Mein Teil]

The U.S.A.
What? we've only made a couple gentle stabs at sharia law...we have a ways to go before we wise up and turn around.

[tercio67]

........ because most of us don't really have a clue as to what our heritage really consists of.

That's because it isn't a simple check list, where you can tick the boxes and magically become Dutch. It means different things to different people, just as it meant something different 100 years ago. You can't make people Dutch, they have to gradually become so.

[eskachig]

Wait, was this bill actually passed? What actual changes have happened?

[RSone]

Wait, was this bill actually passed? What actual changes have happened?

It's not a law. Bill is the wrong word for it. The 'Integratienota' is a do***ent detailing policy.

EDIT: Did it really just sensor the *** in d o c u m e n t?

EDIT #2: The memorandum does project a change to the Naturalisation Law, as well as a proposal to allow prosecution for forced marriage(which is already in the penal code IIRC, so the Internal Affairs Ministry is wrong in presenting this as a proposal for a new law, it would be an amendment) and a proposal for a law banning clothes that cover the face in public spaces, as well as the scrapping of subsidies and special policy for integration courses for specific 'special' groups and subsuming of these in the broader integration policy, and a comprehensive agenda/roadmap for 'modern citizenship' to be drafted together with regional and local governments and social interest groups.

[BafuD]

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/migrants-fend-themselves

Well, the link says it all, migrants fend themself.

Seems like (in my eyes) that this isn't going to be pure talk anymore, changes might be coming.

[RSone]

Minister Donner wants to put an end to policies for target groups. No more special treatment for Antilleans, Turks, Moroccans and other minorities. This cabinet thinks it’s up to migrants themselves to become useful members of society. Mr Donner, “We think it’s the responsibility of the people themselves. We shouldn’t continue with policies aimed at specific target groups and subsidise all kinds of measures, because that way you actually maintain these groups.”
Minister Donner believes that labour, education and housing policies give every citizen plenty of opportunity to lead an independent life regardless of their background. Ethnicity should not be taken into consideration when it comes to tackling anti-social or criminal behaviour.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/migrants-fend-themselves

Good. More like the US, it seems. Equal opportunity for everyone(on paper at leat) no preferential treatment/affirmative action just because you just so happen to be a 'allochtoon'.

I think the indignation of the parliamentary opposition and the various (mainly religious interest groups it seems) is a farce. Like the RNW article says, immigrants over the centuries have immigrated relatively well, but does anyone actually believe there was such a thing as a comprehensive law on integration back in the 18 or 19th century? Or subsidies for every little 'special' group? Of course not. People integrated because they wanted to integrate, they wanted the opportunities this country offered and worked hard to grasp them with both hands. Those are the people we, as a society, should want.

[eskachig]

Minister Donner wants to put an end to policies for target groups. No more special treatment for Antilleans, Turks, Moroccans and other minorities. This cabinet thinks it’s up to migrants themselves to become useful members of society. Mr Donner, “We think it’s the responsibility of the people themselves. We shouldn’t continue with policies aimed at specific target groups and subsidise all kinds of measures, because that way you actually maintain these groups.”
Is that the European version of multiculturalism? Because that seems to me like a logistical nightmare at the least, and a threat to rule of law at the worst.


Minister Donner believes that labour, education and housing policies give every citizen plenty of opportunity to lead an independent life regardless of their background. Ethnicity should not be taken into consideration when it comes to tackling anti-social or criminal behaviour.
That's basically what I see as multiculturalism right there. Of course there will be a conflict between "anti-social" and "independent life" - but that's the case in any free society and applies to natives as much as anyone.

[RSone]

Is that the European version of multiculturalism? Because that seems to me like a logistical nightmare at the least, and a threat to rule of law at the worst.



Although there is overarching EU legislation on immigration, there is room for national legislation within this framework, so equating the law in The Netherlands or any other EU country. with a EU wide policy or legislation, would be wrong.


That's basically what I see as multiculturalism right there. Of course there will be a conflict between "anti-social" and "independent life" - but that's the case in any free society and applies to natives as much as anyone.

It's all the product of a political climate that was for many decades rather left or at most close to center. Ironically, what we would describe as the more rightish liberal-christian VVD-CDA(with the tacit support of Wilders' PVV and the orthodox Christian SGP) administration seems to offer immigrants more chance, if they're willing to work for it. It remains to be seen though. There needs to be a fair bit of deregulation to stop people from drowning in seas of red tape.

[Lazy Lob]

Multiculturalism tends to work, and has done so for centuries. Where it generaly goes belly-up is when governments, driven by a desire to be seen doing something, start to tinker with the concept.

That and modes of fast mass transportation, satellite TV and cheap money.

[tercio67]

That and modes of fast mass transportation, satellite TV and cheap money.

A little governance is not a bad thing, problem is governments don't seem to know when to stop. But we, the people, are not without blame. We elected them into office.

[Victis Honor]

if they're willing to work for it.

that has always been one of the big problems. Immigrants tend to come here expecting a high paying job/free money, and the national/local goverments have given it. Trying to rebuild the economy and the high unemployement rate seems to have finally opened some eyes (even the unemployment office had to let allot fo people go:). I have been to the UWV (unemployment office) a few times assisting my mother in talking to these idiots (they tell you to apply for jobs you are not qualified to do... idiots) and the high number of people not able to even speak dutch let alone one of the other languages the avarge dutch person speaks (english/german/french) standing at the counter trying to get things done. This has once more confirmed my belief that our immigration policy has failed and in my opinion it has become a matter of economic survival making our country less welcome for people that have no chance, we simply cannot handle these PC "projects" anymore.

Now i only hope they do something for the "older" (40/45+) people that just got fcked by the unions(retirement age) in finding a job but thats another topic altogether.

[eskachig]

that has always been one of the big problems. Immigrants tend to come here expecting a high paying job/free money, and the national/local goverments have given it. Trying to rebuild the economy and the high unemployement rate seems to have finally opened some eyes (even the unemployment office had to let allot fo people go:). I have been to the UWV (unemployment office) a few times assisting my mother in talking to these idiots (they tell you to apply for jobs you are not qualified to do... idiots) and the high number of people not able to even speak dutch let alone one of the other languages the avarge dutch person speaks (english/german/french) standing at the counter trying to get things done. This has once more confirmed my belief that our immigration policy has failed and in my opinion it has become a matter of economic survival making our country less welcome for people that have no chance, we simply cannot handle these PC "projects" anymore.
That does sound strange, especially in a country where people receive comprehensive benefits from the state. I don't really think it's about language per se - but certainly one should be employable. Withdrawing residence permits from immigrants who show a history of not being able to find employment (instead of looking into reasons for why like language proficiency and manner of dress) makes total sense to me.

[RSone]

There really was no punishment for flunking your integration course(is it even mandatory?) so there was no incentive to learn at least passible Dutch. It's lunacy, given that after High School, your average Dutchman will likely speak at least English and Dutch to a passible degree. I had Dutch, English, German and French during HS, obligatory for at least 3-4 years, so the total lack of enforcement on learning Dutch makes no sense to me at ALL. Hopefully the cabinet will be tougher on the issue from now on.

[gazell]

The U.S.A.

You do realise, it's one of the most militant countries on the face of the Earth right now?

And yes, accordingly, multiculti was also just fine under soviet, communist Russia.

It's just that little thing, that people on the ground would tell you otherwise.

[gazell]

Multiculturalism tends to work, and has done so for centuries. Where it generaly goes belly-up is when governments, driven by a desire to be seen doing something, start to tinker with the concept.

Very true.

[Piano]

The US isn't a multi-cultural society. It's multi-ethnic, but they enforce their American mono-culture on everyone. Tell me another country where they sing the national anthem at the start of every school day.

[JJHH]

Tell me another country where they sing the national anthem at the start of every school day.

My thoughts.

[eskachig]

The US isn't a multi-cultural society. It's multi-ethnic, but they enforce their American mono-culture on everyone. Tell me another country where they sing the national anthem at the start of every school day.
Not everywhere - I went to a bunch of schools in California (moved around a bit) and I've never seen this. Or the pledge of allegiance for that matter.

[Lazy Lob]

Multiculture=Multicam
BDP=The next step in evolution.

[tercio67]

Time to wear bloody pants? but who will be in those pants, holding the axe...

[Lazy Lob]

Geert Wilders IS BDP-Man with a mane.

[tercio67]

Geert Wilders IS BDP-Man with a mane.

Boring Dutch Politician?

[Lazy Lob]

boom badadadada boom

[eskachig]

Bringing this thread back because this seems a bit related:

Dutch approve ban on kosher and halal animal slaughter


AMSTERDAM: The Dutch parliament voted on Tuesday to ban ritual slaughter of animals, a move strongly opposed by the country's Muslim and Jewish minorities, but left a loophole that could let traditional butchery continue.

The bill by the small Animal Rights Party, the first such group in Europe to win seats in a national parliament, passed the lower house of parliament and must be approved by the upper house before becoming law.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Dutch-approve-ban-kosher-and-halal-animal-slaughter/articleshow/9028454.cms

[RSone]

Misleading title is misleading. Nothing has been accepted yet..Senate has to vote on it.

[SBL]

The US isn't a multi-cultural society. It's multi-ethnic, but they enforce their American mono-culture on everyone. Tell me another country where they sing the national anthem at the start of every school day.
That's why it works.

[eskachig]

Misleading title is misleading. Nothing has been accepted yet..Senate has to vote on it.
I thought so too - but still, it might be an indicator of something. Or maybe the Dutch just care about animal rights, as it says in the article, theirs is the first animal rights party to gain seats anywhere.

[RSone]

I thought so too - but still, it might be an indicator of something. Or maybe the Dutch just care about animal rights, as it says in the article, theirs is the first animal rights party to gain seats anywhere.

They have 2 out of 150 seats in the Second Chamber and 1 out of 75 in the First Chamber. So not a whole lot.. The issue is that other parties(mainly opposition) agreed with them and pushed for the law, like the Labour Party. Funnily enough, the Labour MP's got called on it by the party members during a meeting, as the members voted against supporting the law while the MP's had said earlier they were in favour..

[IraGlacialis]

Dutch society and its values must take precedence and integration policy should go, home affairs minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament on Thursday evening during the presentation of his integration bill. Um... if anything, that sounds very multicultural if you aren't going to bother integrating your immigrants.
Unless Europeans have a very different definition of integration than Americans.

[BafuD]

Um... if anything, that sounds very multicultural if you aren't going to bother integrating your immigrants.
Unless Europeans have a very different definition of integration than Americans.

integration in europe = pampering/free use of racism card to get your will trough/bunch of leftists screaming for you if your holiness is touched by the infidels/more pampering/and more.../and more..?

[RSone]

Um... if anything, that sounds very multicultural if you aren't going to bother integrating your immigrants.
Unless Europeans have a very different definition of integration than Americans.

Multiculturalism here is more commonly understood whatever the government tries to make of it and 'imposes' on society.

[IraGlacialis]

integration in europe = pampering/free use of racism card to get your will trough/bunch of leftists screaming for you if your holiness is touched by the infidels/more pampering/and more.../and more..?
Ah, I see.
The version of integration sounds more like accommodation, which I do consider dangerous for both parties involved.
Whenever I think of integration, it is along the line of assimilation. You come into the country and learn the language/how our system works etc to fit in more-or-less. In turn, you contribute aspects of your culture that can be utilized by those already living here (notably cuisine). In essence, you integrate into your surroundings and make it stronger for it.

Granted it isn't evenly applied. Note many Mexican communities have folks who still can't speak English and who may still consider themselves Mexican before American; in contrast with many Asian (from the Middle East to East Asia) communities, the children don't have any trace of of an accent when speaking in English, even if they weren't even born in the US.

[BafuD]

Ah, I see.
The version of integration sounds more like accommodation, which I do consider dangerous for both parties involved.
Whenever I think of integration, it is along the line of assimilation. You come into the country and learn the language/how our system works etc to fit in more-or-less. In turn, you contribute aspects of your culture that can be utilized by those already living here (notably cuisine). In essence, you integrate into your surroundings and make it stronger for it.

Granted it isn't evenly applied. Note many Mexican communities have folks who still can't speak English and who may still consider themselves Mexican before American; in contrast with many Asian (from the Middle East to East Asia) communities, the children don't have any trace of of an accent when speaking in English, even if they weren't even born in the US.

Thats how it should go, but for some reason leftists/greens/flowerheads support the opposite, dont integrate to our crappy society, keep to yourself, we're stupid you're smart, you have culture we dont blaablaablaa.

Oh and you get ****loads smaller sentences for criminal acts if you're the right color, no jokes.

[afreu]

Bringing this thread back because this seems a bit related:

Dutch approve ban on kosher and halal animal slaughter

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Dutch-approve-ban-kosher-and-halal-animal-slaughter/articleshow/9028454.cms

Isn't that anti-semite?

[Sven Dufva]

Isn't that anti-semite?
no, it is not you silly goose.

[JJHH]

Isn't that anti-semite?

How do you define anti-semite?

[BafuD]

As the muslims/pro-multiculturalists like to say "freedom of speech doesnt mean you can say just about everything etc"...Now I guess I can say that freedom of religion doesnt mean you can do just about everything either.

[DS73]

Since we are in the subject.
Does the state provide free dutch language courses for newcomers?

Yes, through municipality governed programs (the state gives the money, local municipalities choose whom, who and what to teach). Apparently the system is due to shrink down. Beside that, the CWI (the local (para)governmental system that controls and manages work market) has special programs targeting foreigners as well.

There are two distinct course variants (inburgering- this is a basic course tackling really basic language structures and the motley crew of the formal and informal rules of dutch society) and the language course which intends to bring newcomers at some sufficient level of language proficiency (B1 level). Any newcomer has to do either of two. The new variant requires some practice (kind of work in some local companies) as well.

Free is everything, including exams and the travels to the exam centers.

Both programs are failing due to the organizational chaos on all levels.
The control is next to absent, way to often the foreigners are summoned to "help their compatriots", which lead to the inevitable "group associations" helping to live people in their old ways. The foreigners being unlucky to belong to the "wrong bunch" have to hear about how it's better done in Turkey of Marrocco instead of learning the dutch system.

The lack or absence of teachers training is appalling. It's quite difficult to find a teacher with relevant education or at least training in giving dutch to foreigners. (which is intrinsically different from teaching small children).
The well thought intentions to separate people into suitable groups (by initial level of language and the present capability to learn) are never implemented and barely educated people are given course intended for the well educated ones, and vice versa.

[KoTeMoRe]

Although you are de facto right, it's surprising to see how many lefties or liberals actually oppose multiculturalism. After all, multiculturalism is conservative at best, but in most cases even reactionary. The real surprise is why lefties fell for the whole multi-culti BS in the first place.

More on this:
http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/2003/terror060203.htm

So kudo's for getting rid of the multiculti society, but... saying we will get "Dutch values" in stead, is not very specific. Let's wait and see who will define what those values exactly are.

Lefties didn't fall for it. It's the LALA crowd that did. Lefties and Commies are endagered species. Liberals however have always had in their view the ambivalence of liberalism and culture.

[DS73]

Multiculturalism tends to work, and has done so for centuries. Where it generaly goes belly-up is when governments, driven by a desire to be seen doing something, start to tinker with the concept.

Example please.

Please don't give the Netherlands, because the Old Netherlands was a great example of a melting pot, where the children of german, english or even indonesian parents were growing as just nederlanders.
Melting pot by definition is not a "multicultural society"
The Apartheid of old dutch system (which existed until when? 1930?) worked again because the similarities between catholic, protestant (and later "liberal" and even later socialistic) groups were much more important and efficient in binding the state than the discrepancies which always intend to break society up.
The people, you have now, are living 20+ years plus with the everyday thought of "after another one or two years they leave home" caliber. You have the people who seriously believe that they have "better culture", that "rich dutch" should provide them everything, and who no less vigorously deny any failure they themselves can do.
It's always somebody's else fault.
The way of thinking, solving problems is radically different and keeps to stay so. The habit for introspection, common for dutch, is literally missing and as a result the fixing, changing "wrong ways" is impossible.

[DS73]

What is the other path from multiculturalism? An enforced mono culture? Way i see it any free society is multicultural culture is always changing evolving to not be multicultural would require some pretty draconian measures.

Its more a case of people being anti immigration than anti culture.

Don't mix up multicultural and cosmopolitan. And there is also a variant of "built nationality" which is characteristic for the USA or Australia.
People can brag themselves forever about being "Italians", "irish" etc. The reality is that the behavior they have, the language they think marks them as mere americans (of some particular state) or Australians. Having particular cloth or some "ethnic name" doesn't make "culture".

[DS73]

That's basically what I see as multiculturalism right there. Of course there will be a conflict between "anti-social" and "independent life" - but that's the case in any free society and applies to natives as much as anyone.
Please don't mistake cosmopolitan and multicultural.

[afreu]

Oh and you get ****loads smaller sentences for criminal acts if you're the right color, no jokes. Now that sounds like a flowerhead fantasy.