Jerusalem Bus Exlpodes; Kills 20, wounds 80+. [Archive]

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FallenAngel

08-19-2003, 03:39 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20030819/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_explosion

Anyone else think the **** is goin' to hit the fan now? Either Isreal is going to start kicking some ass again, or the Palestinians are going to be forced to arrest these f*ckers causing a civil war.

Trigger

08-19-2003, 03:45 PM

It sounds cold and heartless and evil and you can all flame away, but I wish the Iraelis would just start machine-gunning every one of those Palestinian mother****ers.

Trigger out.

duck

08-19-2003, 03:46 PM

Argyll

08-19-2003, 03:50 PM

As long as there are Israeli's and Arabs,there will never be peace in the Middle East!!They have 1000s of years of grudges to bear,and no matter what "roadmap" is in place it just ain't going to happen!!
The Israeli's will never give back the land they seized,and the Palestinians will always want their homeland back(stolen By the Zionists!!)

stuntman

08-19-2003, 03:56 PM

usa320

08-19-2003, 04:53 PM

For a while there things seemed to be going decent to as far as the "Road Map" goes- if nothing else this proves that the Terrorist groups DO NOT WANT PEACE, therefore they should be eliminated...

I think its time that the Palestinians be told to crack down, or run for cover. :bash:

lefador1

08-19-2003, 05:28 PM

FallenAngel

08-19-2003, 05:31 PM

It sounds cold and heartless and evil and you can all flame away, but I wish the Iraelis would just start machine-gunning every one of those Palestinian mother****ers.

Trigger out.

That wasn't cold and heartless that was stupid and moronic.....

...but it's proven to be the only effective solution in this case. Its sad, but Isreal has tried a dozen times for peace, and every time they let their gaurd down, some Palestinian motherf*cker blows up a school, cafe, market or bus and the Isrealis have no choice but to defend themselves through preventive action.

Argyll

08-19-2003, 05:52 PM

Its quite Ironic,that Israel who has been in breach of more Human rights than any other country in the region,has defied the UN and the west for years and are always portrayed as the good guys?
I respect the Israelis,but there is always a parrallel being drawn between them and the USA,and a lot of folks just don't buy it,as long as the USA backs the Israelis,then the Arab world will have the opposite views.And people wonder why there is anti US feeling in that volatile region?
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other when it comes to fighting dirty!........whats the point in spending Billions of dollars on a deal that just falls apart at the seams?
Do we honestly think that an Israeli incursion into wherever is going to solve anything?.........all it will do is strengthen Arab resolve and create a bigger problem,what would happen if the Egyptians and the Syrians decided to prempt an attack on Israel in response to the threat of this incurrsion............would the West step in?,and in what name,and for what grounds!!..........would the West put the lives of its forces into harms way,for the sake of a 2000 year old feud?......Freedom,I think not!!!

lefador1

08-19-2003, 06:00 PM

...but it's proven to be the only effective solution in this case. Its sad, but Isreal has tried a dozen times for peace, and every time they let their gaurd down, some Palestinian motherf*cker blows up a school, cafe, market or bus and the Isrealis have no choice but to defend themselves through preventive action.

I am pretty sure Palestinians have a different take on this issue. And do not forget that there are plenty of Jewish terrorist among some of the extremist factions. Israel itself was founded using terrorism. Israel has tanks and helos and they sure use them, Palestinians have their own bodies and sheer stupidity... They use different carriers to achieve the same objective. Killing a person using a human bomb is no more disturbing that killing another person using a hellfire from 2000 meters away.

It is a complex situation, just by saying "kill those mothers" is not going to make it away, in fact all it is going to do is escalate. If what you advocate is mass murder and genocide of a group of people, then let me welcome you to Nazi Germany in the late 30s/40s....

Seiyuuki

08-19-2003, 06:17 PM

what would happen if the Egyptians and the Syrians decided to prempt an attack on Israel in response to the threat of this incurrsion............would the West step in?,and in what name,and for what grounds!!..........would the West put the lives of its forces into harms way,for the sake of a 2000 year old feud?......Freedom,I think not!!!

Didn't the Egyptians and Syrians already tried that? The West would step in, considering the fact that Israel have nuclear weapons, and if it come down to their survival, without outside intervention, I doubt they will hesitate to use their nuclear arsenals. If they don't and they fall...nuclear arsenals in the hand of the Arabs victors...*shudder*

Israel itself was founded using terrorism.

The state of Israel is the culmination of nearly a century of activity in Zionism. Following World War I, Great Britain received (1922) Palestine as a mandate from the League of Nations. The struggle by Jews for a Jewish state in Palestine had begun in the late 19th cent. and had become quite active by the 1930s and 40s. The militant opposition of the Arabs to such a state and the inability of the British to solve the problem eventually led to the establishment (1947) of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine, which devised a plan to divide Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a small internationally administered zone including Jerusalem. The General Assembly adopted the recommendations on Nov. 29, 1947. The Jews accepted the plan; the Arabs rejected it. As the British began to withdraw early in 1948, Arabs and Jews prepared for war.

On May 14, 1948, when the British high commissioner for Palestine departed, the state of Israel was proclaimed at Tel Aviv. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq invaded Israel, as most Palestinian Arabs were driven from Jewish territory. By the time armistice agreements were reached (Jan., 1949), Israel had increased its holdings by about one-half. Jordan annexed the Arab-held area adjoining its territory, and Egypt occupied a coastal strip in the southwest, including Gaza.

Who would be responsible for this act of terrorism, the UN, Great Britain, Israel or all of them?

Argyll

08-19-2003, 06:57 PM

Yes they did back in 67,and failed,but the Egypt/Syrian Armies are much larger than their predecessors.
On what grounds would the West step in,and on whos side,when I said the West,in hindsight,I guess it comes down to the US/UK thing again,as I have my serious doubts whether NATO would interefere,as pretty much the EU countries..........the old addage ..it's not our problem!!,and to be honest it isn't,to step into a war with no cause,and having no effect on the eventual outcome,to have their sons and Fathers die for nothing other than blind hatred toward each other is no reason to send them to their fate........would the Israeli's use an WMD........I doubt it,given the size of their country,and the effect any such device would have catastrophic effects on themselves,on the other hand if they did,then it goes to show that the Israelis were never in this for the Peace Plan,and have no hang ups about wiping out the entire Middle east,along with themselves,and sparking off the end of civilisation as we know it!!
As to who'se to blame,we the West need to look into the mirror,and take a good hard look at the mess we helped create!!

lefador1

08-19-2003, 07:03 PM

I doubt any country is willing to attack Israel right now or in the near future, Israel has nukes afterall.

Argyll

08-19-2003, 07:07 PM

the USA also has nukes and it was attacked...........what's the difference?

lefador1

08-19-2003, 07:12 PM

...we were not attacked by another country's military. That's the difference, I highly doubt that Syria will attack Israel frontally, and Egypt will not jeopardize US foreign aid.

Argyll

08-19-2003, 07:23 PM

Don't kid yourself on,If this was a case of the Arab worlds survival,they be at the front of the que,there's no love lost between these two countries!!
Besides that Egypt also has its fair share of nutters,and if the whole of the Middle East erupts do you think anyone is going to worry about Financial and Economic aid?
Having Nukes does not frighten lunatics intent on detroying the heart and soul of a country,look at Chechneya,the Russian may as well've Nuked the place.........they flattened it,and still the Fundamentalists attack into the heart of the CIS

Argyll

08-19-2003, 07:42 PM

Spooky ain't it?

Trigger

08-19-2003, 08:09 PM

let me welcome you to Nazi Germany in the late 30s/40s
Yeah those Jews were really bending the Nazis over back then weren't they. Nice try playing the Nazi card there. It was bound to come out again.

lefador1

08-19-2003, 08:58 PM

let me welcome you to Nazi Germany in the late 30s/40s
Yeah those Jews were really bending the Nazis over back then weren't they. Nice try playing the Nazi card there. It was bound to come out again.

Oh sorry, only Israel and its supporters can advocate the extermination of a certain group of people and it being perfectly OK, copy that... my bad.

budanski

08-19-2003, 10:04 PM

I'm all for exterminating certain groups that target innocent civilians on buses and shopping centers.

lefador1

08-19-2003, 10:19 PM

I'm all for exterminating certain groups that target innocent civilians on buses and shopping centers.

What about those who target innocent civilians in their houses? Or it is only buses and shopping centers you are interested in?

hood

08-19-2003, 10:44 PM

There's the difference. The word target. The Palestinian forces specifically target civilians. They're not bystanders who happen to get hit by flying bullets or shrapnel, they were exactly the ones that were intended for destruction. Israel does not target civilians. Hamas and Islamic Jihad purposely, just like Iraq's forces, mix their military people amongst innnocent civilians. They have huge bomb making facilities at a car repair shop right in the middle of hundreds of houses. How much do you blame Israel for launching attacks on military targets and hitting civilians when that's the only places these people are? Are they supposed to sit by and do nothing and say "oh, he's the leader of Hamas who's driving in a car, but I can't shoot him because he made sure to have kids and women in the car along side his soldiers with guns."

lefador1

08-19-2003, 11:07 PM

The end result is the same, whether or not you use any justification. It is all semantics, thinking that by calling those victims "collateral" makes it A-OK is rather simplistic IMHO.

In the same sense that Israel is "forced" to a certain kind of warfare, Palestinians are too forced to conduct a battle without an army. However trying to somehow give a blank check to any of the two parties is wrong.

FallenAngel

08-19-2003, 11:30 PM

lefador1...

Hood hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the difference in who is targeted. And as for "exterminating" groups of people...lets take a look at the Palestinian stance. It's well known that these terrorists just don't want peaceful co-existance with Isreal (which is what Isreal is trying for), but they want to eliminate every Jew in the region. NOW who's being a f*cking Nazi?

The Palestinians are bastards. They are extremists bastards who INTENTIONALLY target civilians, women and children. They not only avoid the IDF (legit military target) but they brag and take pride in the fact that they kill children in school buses.

The Isrealis are doing the best they can. Personally, if it was ME, I would send out the IDF to round up every known terrorist where ever the hell they are and execute them on the f*cking spot. But they don't (for the most part) they show amazine restraint and PC while still defending it's citizens against terrorist. THe only other course of action is to sit back, do nothing, and watch Isrealis get slaughtered.

Yes, civilian casualties are a tragedy....but it's a fact of war thats been around since cavemen. It has always and will always happen. But there's a difference between an accidental civilian casualty in IDF raids, and Palestinians intentionally blow up a market full of women and children.

usa320

08-20-2003, 12:15 AM

"Both the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other when it comes to fighting dirty"

Until i see the IAF dropping GBU-12D's on busloads of Palestinian school children or hitting a disco full of innocent teenagers, then i refuse to believe the above statement. I for one dont consider bulldozing the home of a suspected terrorist or blowing away a militant leader witha hellfire through his window as "fighting dirty". For a while i began to actually think that *maybe* both sides were starting to get along a bit better, but now this proves that there are certain elements of the palestinians (but not all of them) that dont want peace, and those elements should be dealt with harshly.

hood

08-20-2003, 12:47 AM

They should be dealt with harshly by Abbas. If he doesn't act militarily within the next week, his potency is going to be next to nothing. Part of the road map for peace is Abbas' dismantling of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. If he doesn't do it right now then it's all been just words.

lefador1

08-20-2003, 12:48 AM

1st the country is called ISRAEL, it would not hurt to at least spell it correctly if you feel so strongly about it. 2nd there are millions of palestinians, claiming that every one of them is a blood thirsty bastard hence they should all be rounded up and killed, it sounds like you are advocating ethnic cleansing, and that my friend is as nazi as it gets... but by all means keep it up! The Palestinians outnumber the Israelis, if every palestinian was such a blood thirsty animal... Israel would have dissapeared long ago.

Do I support terrorism? Hell no, but lets just made something clear OK? Trying to pretend that those Palestinians are so pissed off for no aparent reason is naive to say the least. If you were kicked out of your own home and sent to live in a refugee camp in the worst conditions, maybe just maybe you too would be a tad pissed off, OK? A person doesn't just strap on 20Kg of TNT and blows himself up for no apparent reason, no matter how much brain washing you try to pretend they go through, for some of these people seems to be their only way out. Sounds ridiculous, but we need to realize that just by dealing with terrorism in a conventional and reactionary way it is not going to change anything, in fact it is going to make things worse.

And for all of you who are a bit "light" in the history side of things. May I remind you that Israel was funded by terrorism? Go and read on Ben Gurion and his band of merry men blowing up the King David hotel. Remember one person's terrorist is another group's freedom fighter.

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 12:50 AM

would the Israeli's use an WMD........I doubt it,given the size of their country,and the effect any such device would have catastrophic effects on themselves,on the other hand if they did,then it goes to show that the Israelis were never in this for the Peace Plan,and have no hang ups about wiping out the entire Middle east,along with themselves,and sparking off the end of civilisation as we know it!!
As to who'se to blame,we the West need to look into the mirror,and take a good hard look at the mess we helped create!!

When you've got every Arabs countries in the Middle East steaming down your neck and you know that without "outside intervention," no matter what, you're going to lose and that every Arabs are out for blood which mean they're in it to kill every Jews in the region...so with nothing to lose and it's your complete death or a harsh survival, do you seriously "doubt" the Israeli would use its nukes? For that matter, if it was a "nothing to lose" situation for any other countries, US, UK, France, Russia...do you "doubt" they will use it? Pakistan and India are very much in the "nothing to lose" situation when it come to nuke...one of the contributing factors that they haven't done so already is because of strong outside intervention.

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 01:00 AM

As far as I'm concern...the UN and the UK had great control over Palestine and that entire region, but they neglected their responsibility and just told the Jews, "here you go, just take it, I don't care what you do with it..." without any regard for the eventual cultural and religious clash between them and the Palestinians. Now we're stuck to clean up their ****ing mess.

lefador1

08-20-2003, 01:30 AM

Palestine was under UK administration not UN, as far as I know the UN had very little if any control over Palestine in the late 40's, as far as I know most of the attention of the UN in the late 40's early 50's was in the Korean peninsula. I believe the UN recognized the state of Israel right away.

The history is so complex and convoluted that is very hard to see any way of resolving the current situation.

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 01:57 AM

The militant opposition of the Arabs to such a state and the inability of the British to solve the problem eventually led to the establishment (1947) of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine, which devised a plan to divide Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a small internationally administered zone including Jerusalem. The General Assembly adopted the recommendations on Nov. 29, 1947. The Jews accepted the plan; the Arabs rejected it.

Was watching the news...those in the US and UK are familiar with the show "American's Idol" or I think in Europe, "European's Idol," or whatever, anyway, apparently, there was a "Middle East's Idol" in which a 19 years old Jordanian girl won. So, for all the anti-US sentiment and extreme dislike of the Western world these people rants about, they sure seem to take a liking to our culture.

Argyll

08-20-2003, 02:00 AM

Seiyuki,
That's correct....................the land was called PALESTINE home of the PALESTINIANS......then came along the Zionist "terrorists",and took that land away from the Palestinians,and hell yes they were terrorists back then,as they used car bombs,and other terror tactics against the British Forces and Palestinians.For sure the UK can accept a large part of the Blame,but it was the USA who sponsered the Zionist orginisations back then.
All the Normal Palestinians wanted was their homland back!
Don't try apportioning the blame on something that we all should take the blame for,jeeze you guys supported terror groups in Latin America,but just because they were fighting Military run Junta's you called them Freedom Fighters and that was ok!!
And now you say we're stuck with having to clean up their mess,well you spend Billions of dollars helping out the "Occupying Forces",it only seems right that you share some of the blame!
The fact is that not all Palestinians are bad,there is the terror faction within them,just like Iraq is beggining to show now........so should we just "exterminate" all of them too!There are folks here with a blinkererd approach to ideollogy,who are showing classical signs of bigotism and racism,the regular Palestinian has every right to live in peace as much as you or I,and as many of you keep going on about the value of Freedom,these guys have not had that luxury since 1947!!

Andyman

08-20-2003, 02:01 AM

Well just think if Germany had have finished what it had started all this **** would not be happening right now. I strongly believe that the reasons why there is so much anti US sentiment in the Arab world is because of thier heavy support of Israel and yeah sure they help out the Arabs too however Israel always gets a bigger piece of the pie. I dated a Jewish girl for a long time and the stuff that her and her family would say about the whole issue made me sick. They are totally arrogant about what is happening there and it just goes to show how those viewpoints about whose right and whose wrong never solve any problems. Israel is too arrogant and Palestine is too pissed off. Both sides believe they are 100% correct. I swaer on my blood that the problems that exist in that place will never be solved ever.

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 02:22 AM

Seiyuki,
That's correct....................the land was called PALESTINE home of the PALESTINIANS......then came along the Zionist "terrorists",and took that land away from the Palestinians,and hell yes they were terrorists back then,as they used car bombs,and other terror tactics against the British Forces and Palestinians.For sure the UK can accept a large part of the Blame,but it was the USA who sponsered the Zionist orginisations back then.

Did I ever said directly I DISAGREE with the notion that "Israel was a state funded by terrorism," though I never said I agree with it either, my judgement on that issue has yet to be made...So don't try to pass off the impression that I have already made my judgement on that issue. Hey...we're the USA, everything wrong with this WORLD is our fault.

All the Normal Palestinians wanted was their homland back!
Don't try apportioning the blame on something that we all should take the blame for,jeeze you guys supported terror groups in Latin America,but just because they were fighting Military run Junta's you called them Freedom Fighters and that was ok!!
And now you say we're stuck with having to clean up their mess,well you spend Billions of dollars helping out the "Occupying Forces",it only seems right that you share some of the blame!

Maybe I shouldn't have separated the UK from the UN...UN alone would probably have suffice...After all UN, UNITED NATIONS, U-N-I-T-E-D N-A-T-I-O-N-S, United NationS...I'm sorry, but my memory is a little bit shaky, who were all in the UN at that time? Wasn't there a country called US...? I'm sorry for using UN and generalizing the proportionment of blame too much.

Argyll

08-20-2003, 02:27 AM

Like I said we can all hold our hands up to this somewhere along the line.
I never said you disagreed either I was just posting a reply to your post saying it was all the UK's fault...........and I've said that too we must take more of the blame than others !!

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 02:31 AM

In the same sense that Israel is "forced" to a certain kind of warfare, Palestinians are too forced to conduct a battle without an army.

This is not true. Suicide bombing is not a "last resort"--it is a preferred method of warfare in 20th century Arab and Muslim societies. Two examples:

*Before the 1967 war, when the Egyptian army was significantly larger than the Israeli army, and the Egyptian army was equipped by the Soviet Union, Egypt still used terrorist bombers (the fedayeen) against Israel.

*Just a couple weeks ago in Pakistan, Sunni suicide bombers killed dozens of people at a Shi'ite mosque. Sunnis are the majority of the country and control the government and military, yet they still used suicide bombers.

Using suicide bombers and targeting civilians are two DELIBERATE CHOICES of Palestinian terrorists. The argument that "those are the only means available" is pure propaganda. Don't get sucked into it.

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 02:37 AM

Well just think if Germany had have finished what it had started all this **** would not be happening right now.

*blink*

*blink*

You didn't actually just say that, did you? Wow.

James

08-20-2003, 02:58 AM

Well just think if Germany had have finished what it had started all this **** would not be happening right now.

WTF?

Please tell me you were being a smartass with that statement. PLEASE!

James

08-20-2003, 02:59 AM

We need more people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King in the world.

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 03:09 AM

James

08-20-2003, 03:27 AM

We need more people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King in the world.

The problem is, good people like that keep being killed by people who don't share their moral strength. And just to make it more related to this discussion, it's worth remembering that both Ghandi and Robert Kennedy were murdered by Muslim extremists.

Islam, Judaisim, and Christianity should be taken out of the equation (wishful thinking on my part, I know). After all, we all believe in the same God. I don't think any of these faiths offer a path to eternal salvation through suicide and mass murder.

Maybe I should have written that we need more Hindus in the world. I don't know. I am admittedly biased because I am an American, and here we have a pretty decent record of accepting people from different ethnic and religious backgrounds.

I know that the Palestinians were in what was Palestine for a long time, and that the Israelis took control less than sixty years ago. From my naive standpoint, though, I ask "Why are you scrapping over these little pieces of desert? These ghettos?" It seems that to many of these people, their world is tiny, and they can't see beyond that. I could rant on and on about this, but I think I'll stop now.

It's just a shame. A crying shame.

lefador1

08-20-2003, 03:30 AM

James

08-20-2003, 03:41 AM

Actually Mahatma Gandhi was killed by a Hindu extremist, not a muslim extremist.... and MLK was killed by a white supremacist. So what was your point by trying to single out muslims. What only muslims commit crimes?

Gandhi did more without a single shot than an entire Indian army could have achieved against the British, there lies his power. He was assasinated but he achieved his goals. A cause is only good if you are willing to die for it, not if you are simply willing to kill for it.

Thank you for that post, lefador1.

To anyone else reading this, ISLAM IS NOT THE ENEMY OF THE UNITED STATES OR THE REST OF THE WORLD!

Ghandi was a great man. God bless you lefador1, whether you are a heathen or not :D

lefador1

08-20-2003, 03:45 AM

[quote=lefador1]In the same sense that Israel is "forced" to a certain kind of warfare, Palestinians are too forced to conduct a battle without an army.

This is not true. Suicide bombing is not a "last resort"--it is a preferred method of warfare in 20th century Arab and Muslim societies. Two examples:

Of course you have never heard of Kamikazes have you?

*Before the 1967 war, when the Egyptian army was significantly larger than the Israeli army, and the Egyptian army was equipped by the Soviet Union, Egypt still used terrorist bombers (the fedayeen) against Israel.

Oh, absolutelly... most of the frontal attack by the Egyptians was carried out by suicide bombers, right? I mean if it was the "preferred" method of warfare for them. Jeezus!

Using suicide bombers and targeting civilians are two DELIBERATE CHOICES of Palestinian terrorists. The argument that "those are the only means available" is pure propaganda. Don't get sucked into it.

Of course they have all those apaches and tanks and a modern army at their disposition, right? I mean they have tons of warfare material, right? I am not excusing their behavior, I am just trying to point out that claims like those that you put out there are naive and in no way shape or form make an effort to understand the root of those suicide bombings. As I said one does not wake up one day and decide "it is a jolly good day to blow myself up today!" You can react all you want to it, but if you never tackle the root of the problem is going to be perpetually bitting you in the ass. And thus witness what is going on in modern day Israel.

I do not excuse the actions of terrorist, but I can not just write a blank check to the Israeli actions. These parties are both equally guilty, hence I do not support the methods of any of them, I do not believe that is propaganda BTW, I have my own mind and I try to read both sides of every story. Do not patronize me with the being "suckered into it"....

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 03:47 AM

Islam, Judaisim, and Christianity should be taken out of the equation (wishful thinking on my part, I know). After all, we all believe in the same God. I don't think any of these faiths offer a path to eternal salvation through suicide and mass murder.

I don't believe "Islam" as a whole religion offers salvation through murder. But if you deny that the terrorists who flew planes into the WTC believe that is just wrong. The fact is, the Muslim extremists who murder civilians in the United States, Israel, India, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc, genuinely DO believe that they are following the word of God when they kill the "infidel."

My motto is "I don't have a problem with Islam, but apparently a significant number of Muslims have a problem with me." That's not bigotry, that's just realism.

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 03:51 AM

I'm an "infidel," and DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 03:55 AM

Of course they have all those apaches and tanks and a modern army at their disposition, right? I mean they have tons of warfare material, right? I am not excusing their behavior, I am just trying to point out that claims like those that you put out there are naive and in no way shape or form make an effort to understand the root of those suicide bombings. As I said one does not wake up one day and decide "it is a jolly good day to blow myself up today!" You can react all you want to it, but if you never tackle the root of the problem is going to be perpetually bitting you in the ass. And thus witness what is going on in modern day Israel.

I do not excuse the actions of terrorist, but I can not just write a blank check to the Israeli actions. These parties are both equally guilty, hence I do not support the methods of any of them, I do not believe that is propaganda BTW, I have my own mind and I try to read both sides of every story. Do not patronize me with the being "suckered into it"....

You are ignoring the fact that until 1967, Arabs had a DRAMATIC advantage over Israelis in terms of technology and war materiel (Britain and the Soviet Union armed the Arab countries, whereas only Czechoslovakia was willing to sell arms to Israel, and nobody donated arms to Israel), and the Arab coalition used many of the same tactics they do today. And yes, fedayeen raids were VERY common. Whereas even during the 1948 War for Independence, when Israel had essentially no tanks or aircraft, they respected civilian targets and diverted much-needed military assets to forcibly restrain the few Israelis who were interested in terrorism. And yes, they even used lethal force against Israeli terrorists while simultaneously fighting 10-to-1 odds against the Arab armies.

Every culture has some terrorists. There are terrorists in the USA (Rudolph and McVeigh; the KKK); there were terrorists in Israel (the Irgun and the Stern). But the United States and Israel use force--lethal force, if necessary--to prevent our terrorists from hurting innocent people. The Palestinian Authority cooperates with their terrorists, just like the Taliban cooperated with al-Qaeda. That is a HUGE ethical difference.

lefador1

08-20-2003, 03:56 AM

I don't believe "Islam" as a whole religion offers salvation through murder. But if you deny that the terrorists who flew planes into the WTC believe that is just wrong. The fact is, the Muslim extremists who murder civilians in the United States, Israel, India, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc, genuinely DO believe that they are following the word of God when they kill the "infidel."

My motto is "I don't have a problem with Islam, but apparently a significant number of Muslims have a problem with me." That's not bigotry, that's just realism.

It can also be argued that more people have died because of Christianism than almost any other cause over the past 1.5 thousand years. See those muslims are paranoid enough to think that it is the West that it is out to get them. Then we get paranoid because we think that they are out to get us... and voila you get the ball rolling.

Also how many muslims do you personally know? How can you be sure they have a problem with you perse?

lefador1

08-20-2003, 04:06 AM

You are ignoring the fact that until 1967, Arabs had a DRAMATIC advantage over Israelis in terms of technology and war materiel (Britain and the Soviet Union armed the Arab countries, whereas only Czechoslovakia was willing to sell arms to Israel, and nobody donated arms to Israel), and the Arab coalition used many of the same tactics they do today. And yes, fedayeen raids were VERY common.

The Arabs had absolutelly outdated tactics. And I seriously doubt Britain was supplying that much material to Egypt after the Suez fiasco. The Arabs were superion on paper, but on the ground they were just too badly trained. Israely forces were also motivated, whereas the Egyptian and Syrian forces were mostly conscripts. Most of the fedayeen raids were carried out as an act of desperation rather than a well thought of tactic. I also think that Israel had a significant amount of French warfare material.

Whereas even in 1948, Israel respected civilian targets and diverted much-needed military assets to forcibly restrain the few Israelis who were interested in terrorism.

Oh, absolutely they cared so much for civilians that they just took over their houses and sent them to refugee camps. Come on... please.

Every culture has terrorists. There are terrorists in the USA (Rudolph and McVeigh); there were terrorists in Israel (the Irgun and the Stern). But the United States and Israel use force--lethal force, if necessary--to prevent our terrorists from hurting innocent people. The Palestinian Authority cooperates with their terrorists, just like the Taliban cooperated with al-Qaeda. That is a HUGE ethical difference.

Well the US cooperated with the Taliban during the 80s when they were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. The US and Israel will apply force to prevent OUR terrorist from hurting OUR innocent people. See the difference? Also Israel and the US have actual armies, the Palestinians do not have that, hence they have the fanatical element that want to take matters on their own.....

James

08-20-2003, 04:10 AM

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 04:45 AM

They don't have to resort to suicide bombing, they can do this:

The Sum of All Fears
Tom Clancy

On command, the leading rows of Arabs, all of them teenagers with a lenghthy history of confrontation, sat down. The hundred young men behind them did the same. Then the front row started clapping. And singing. Benny took a moment to comprehend it, though he was as fluent in Arabic as any Palestinian.

We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome some day

The TV crews were immediately behind the police. Several of them laughed in surprise at the savage irony of it. One of them was CNN corresponent Pete Franks, who summed it up for everyone: "Son of a BITCH" And in that moment Franks knew that the world had changed yet again. He'd been in Moscow for the first democratic meeting of the Supreme Soviet, in Managua the night the Sandinistas had lost their sure-thing election, and in Beijing to see the Goddess of Liberty destroyed. And now this? he thought. The Arabs finally wised up. Holy ****.

"I hope you have that tape rolling, Mickey."

"Are they singing what I think they're singing."

"Sure as hell sounds like it. Let's get closer."

The leader of the Arabs was a twenty-year-old sociology student named Hashimi Moussa. His arm was permanently scarred from an Israeli club, and half his teeth were gone from a rubber bullet whose shooter had been especially angry on one particular day. No one qestioned his courage. He'd had to prove that beyond doubt. He'd had to face death a dozen times before his position of leadership has been assured, but now he had it, and people listened to him, and he was able to activate an idea he'd cherished for five endless, patient years. It had taken three days to persuade them, then the fantastic good luck of a Jewish friend disgusted with the religious conservatives of his country who'd spoken a little too loudly about the plans of this day. Perhaps it was destiny, Hashimi thought, or the Will of Allah, or simply luck. Whatever it was, this was the moment he'd lived for since his fifteenth year, when he'd learned of Gandhi and King, and how they had defeated force with naked, passive courage. Persuading his people had meant stepping back from a warrior code that seemed part of their genes, but he'd done it. Now his beliefs would be put to the test.

All Benny Zadin saw was that his path was blocked. Rabbi Kohn said something to Rabbi Goldmark, but neither turned back to where the police were stopped, because to turn away was to admit defeat. Whether they were too shocked at what they saw or too angry, he would never learn. Captain Zadin turned to his men.

"Gas!" He'd planned this part in advance. The four men with gas guns were all religious men. They leveled their weapons and fired simultaneously into the crowd. The gas projectiles were dangerous and it was remarkable that no one was injured by them. In a few seconds, gray clouds of tear gas bloomed within the mass of sitting Arabs. But on command, each of them donned a mask to protect himself from it. This impeded their singing, but not their clapping or resolution, and it only enraged Captain Zadin further when the easterly wind blew the gas toward his men and away from the Arabs. Next, men with insulated gloves lifted the hot projectiles and threw them back toward the police. In a minute, they were able to remove their masks, and there was laughter in their singing now.

Next Zadin ordered the rubber bullets launched. He had six men armed with these weapons, and from a range of fifty meters they could force any man to run for cover. The first volley was perfect, hitting six of the Arabs in the front line. Two cried out in pain. One collapsed, but not one man moved from his place except to succor the injured. The next volley was aimed at heads not chest, and Zadin had the satisfaction of seeing a face explode in a puff of red.

The leader-Zadin recognized the face from earlier encounters-stood and gave a command the Israeli captain could not hear. But its significance became clear immediately. The singing became louder. Another volley of rubber bullets followed. One of his marksmen was very angry, the police commander saw. The Arab who'd taken one fully in the face now took another in the top of his head, and with it his body went limp in death. It should have warned Benny that he had already lost control of his men, but worse still was that he was losing control of himself.

Hashimi did not see the death of comrade. The passion of the moment was overwhelming. The consternation on the faces of the police behind their masks, but their actions, their movements, made their feelings clear. In a brilliant moment of clarity he knew that he was winning, and he shouted again to his people to redouble their efforts. This they did in they face of fire and death.

Captain Benjamin Zadin stripped off his helmet and walked forcefully toward the Arabs, past the rabbis who had suddenly been struck with incomprehensible indecision. Would the Will of God be upset by the discordant singing of some dirty savages?

"Uh-oh," Pete Franks observed, his eyes streaming from the gas that had blown over his face.

"I got it," the cameraman said without bidding, zooming his lens in on the advancing Israeli police commander. "Something is going to happen-this guy looks pissed, Pete!"

Oh, God, Franks thought. Himself a Jew, himself strangely at home in this barren but beloved land, he knew that history was occurring before his eyes yet again, was already composing his two or three minutes of verbal reporting that would overlay the tape his cameraman was recording for posterity, and was wondering if another Peabody might be in his future for doing his tough and dangerous job supremely well.

It happened quickly, much too quickly, as the captain strode directly to the Arab leader. Hashimi now knew that a friend was dead, his skull caved in by what was supposed to be a nonlethal weapon. He prayed silently for the soul of his comrade and hoped that Allah would understand the courage required to face death this way. He would. Hashimi was sure of that. The Israeli approaching him was a face known to him. Zadin, the name was, a man who’d been there before often enough, just one more Israeli face most often hidden behind a Lexan mask and drawn gun, one more man unable to see Arabs as people, to whom a Muslim was the launcher for a rock or a Molotov cocktail. Well, today he’d learn different, Hashimi told himself. Today he’d see a man of courage of conviction.

Benny Zadin saw an animal, like a stubborn mule, like-what? He wasn’t sure what he saw, but it wasn’t a man, wasn’t an Israeli. They’d changed tactics, that was all, and the tactics were womanly. They thought this would stand in the way of his purpose? Just as his wife had told him that she was leaving for the bed of a better man, that he could have the children, that his threats to beat her were empty words, that he couldn’t do that, wasn’t man enough to take charge of his own household. He saw that beautiful empty face and wondered why he hadn’t taught her a lesson; she’d just stood there, not a meter away, staring at him, smiling-finally laughing at his inability to do what his manhood had commanded him to do, and, so, passive weakness had defeated strength.

But not this time.

“Move!” Zadin commanded in Arabic.

“No.”

“I will kill you.”

“You will not pass.”

“Benny!” a levelheaded member of the police screamed. But it was too late for that. For Benjamin Zadin, the deaths of his brothers at Arab hands, the way his wife had left, and the way these people just sat in his way was too much. In one smooth motion he drew his service automatic and shot Hashimi in the forehead. The Arab youth fell forward, and the singing and clapping stopped. One of the other demonstrators started to move, but two others grabbed him and held him fast. Others began praying for their two dead comrades. Zadin turned his gun hand to one of these, but though his finger pressed on the trigger, something stopped him a gram short of the release pressure. It was the look in the eyes, the courage there, something other than defiance. Resolution, perhaps...and pity, for the look on Zadin’s face was anguish that transcended pain, and the horror of what he had done crashed through his consciousness. He had broken faith with himself. He had killed in cold blood. He had taken the life of someone who had threatened no man’s life. He had murdered. Zadin turned to the rabbis, looking for something, he knew not what, and whatever he sought simply was not there. As he turned away, the singing began again. Sergeant Moshe Levin came forward and took the captain’s weapon.

“Come on, Benny, let’s get you away from this place.”

“What have I done?”

“It is done, Benny. Come with me.”

Levin started to lead his commander away, but he had to turn and look at the morning’s handiwork. Hashimi’s body was slumped over, a pool of blood coursing down between the cobblestones. The sergeant knew that he had to do or say something. It wasn’t supposed to be like this. His mouth hung open, and his face swung from side to side. In that moment, Hashimi’s disciples knew that their leader had won.

Now all we need is a Hashimi!!!

martinexsquaddie

08-20-2003, 04:58 AM

the terrorists wish to derail the peace proccess its that easy.
The Pal goverment is not really strong enough to take violent action against the extremists. Its catch22
If the palenstians had a viable state they could crack down on the extremists who would lose there local support base.
But they don't so its difficult, Israel says it will give give them concessions if they can stop the bombing but they can't. The terrorists can keep killing and the Idf will respond with more dead civillians.
Also for James Hindus Peaceful look up the BJP fond of race riots but as they kill muslims I suppose that makes them good guys :(

fisheyestudio

08-20-2003, 09:41 AM

Hey howdy hey!

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now." Romans 8:22

At times it is overwhealming to face the horror, violence, and pain that fills our world. Logic and reason fail, and has it has been said above, there is no answer to this conflict between Jews and gentiles. None within the realm of humanity.

I do not know if any of you are students of scripture and prophecy. You may immediately dismiss everything I say because I am, but I have yet to meet a person who has spent real time seeking after the truth and not found it.

When I see all the death and pain, the only reason I do not loose hope is because I am able to view these events as the "birthpains" of prophecy being fullfilled. Some have said that wisdom is being able to view things from Jesus's perspective.

I know that this is not a "religion" forum but in light of these events I felt compelled to comment on the basis of the Hope that I have. Invest some time and see what has been written concerning the end times (Daniel, Revelations, Romans...).

I stand ready to give an answer for this Hope that I have...so feel free to email me if you share my faith in Christ or just want to talk.

Jesus blessings
chris holloman
fisheyestudio@hotmail.com

ibstolidude

08-20-2003, 09:42 AM

Well the US cooperated with the Taliban (graduates of Islamic schools in Pakistan that adhere to very strict interpretation of Islam) during the 80s when they were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. The US and Israel will apply force to prevent OUR terrorist from hurting OUR innocent people. See the difference? Also Israel and the US have actual armies, the Palestinians do not have that, hence they have the fanatical element that want to take matters on their own.....

Everytime I read someone posting the above it is obvious the lack of knowledge of US foreign policy and the history of that region...

It was impossible for the US to support the Taliban during the 80's as the Taliban rose to power in Kabul in 1996.. BUT HEY what do the facts matter after all when statements fit your point why bother with the mundane details..

Anticipating the cop-out of" the US supported those that became the Taliban" -The majority of the leaders and upper ranks of the Taliban was comprised of Afghans who originally grew up in refugee camps in Pakistan and were taught this fiery brand of fundamentalist Islam in Madrases.
If any US situation created, which aided in the creation of the Taliban, it would be the US withdrawal of support from Afghanistan when at the time of percieved Soviet failure.. as the soviets withdrew (89) (and strong US aid subsided) the soviet placed government (Nagil Bila) continued until overthrown in 1992.. the country fell back into a "warlord" system that in essence was a series of fiefdom's lacking a central government of power...these faction began fighting for the central government control... it was a digression of a hundred years, the economy was shot, the infastructure was destroyed ... the warlords fell into seeking vegencance upon each other and claiming/spreading their own area's of influence. Ethnic division bred into this internal wafare.

Fighting subsequently continued among the various mujahidin factions, giving rise to a state of warlordism that was an opportunity the Taliban took. The Taliban was comprosed of the Pashtun ethnic group which comprised 45% of the population - the next closest group the Tajiks 24%. Backed by foreign sponsors ( arab money and the Pakistani intelligence services that helped train them), the Taliban developed as a political force and eventually seized power. The Taliban were able to capture most of the country, approx 90% at it's peak. They took Kabul in 1996 - gained the seat of power and began a rule impossing Sharia—Muslim law—.

There was certainly a failure of US policy during the end of the Soviet occupation, but lets call apples, apples and oranges, oranges...the US did not back the Taliban movement. The arguement could be made that our efforts to arm the Mujahedin throught the use of the Pakistani Intelligence service as a"proxy", resulted in the growth of the PIS which went on to aid the Taliban, but to claim the US supported the Taliban is just plain false.

The entire mess of a country results from the arbitrary design of borders without regard to ethnic groups during the end of the British occupation in 1919.

hood

08-20-2003, 09:53 AM

So Andyman, I just want to know... did your jewish girlfriend break up with you before, or after, you told her that you wished her and her kind had been exterminated from the planet?

Trigger

08-20-2003, 12:33 PM

Of course you have never heard of Kamikazes have you?
Kamikazes attacked warships not school buses or restaurants :cantbeli:

Argyll

08-20-2003, 01:37 PM

Looks like there has been a breakdown in communications somewhere along the line
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1100904,00.html

budanski

08-20-2003, 01:41 PM

ah. all else fails, blame the americans

Sergio de Mello was asked by the US military if they wanted to have US troops beef up security around the UN building but the UN in it's infinite stupidity refused the extra help: "UN Officials Deliberately REFUSED U.S. Security in Baghdad 'did not want American presence'" (http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=1409956)

FallenAngel

08-20-2003, 01:45 PM

One way to fight extremists is to use their religion against them... ;)

Just before WWI there were a number of attacks on US forces in the Philippines by Muslim extremists. Gen. "Black Jack" Pershing captured 50 terrorists and tied them up to poles for execution. His men then brought in pigs and slaughtered them in front of the horrified terrorists. Muslims hate pork. Some won't eat it, while others wont even touch a pig or pig by-products. To them (Muslims) eating or touching a pig, its meat, blood, etc. is to be instantly barred from paradise (and the Virgins there) and doomed to hell. His soldiers then soaked their bullets in pig's blood and executed 49 terrorists. They then dug a really big hole, threw the bodies in and covered them with the pigs blood, entrails, etc. They let the 50th terrorist go, so he could tell everyone else what had happened. And for the next 50 years, there wasn't another Muslim attack anywhere in the world.

warchild1/27scout

08-20-2003, 02:21 PM

fallen angel that is a great idea but Very pol. incorrect. i had friends that were in gulf war 1 that said they fed the iraqi prisoners the pork mre and those guys did'nt give a **** they were hungry and slopped that thing down. :lol:

FallenAngel

08-20-2003, 03:15 PM

Alas....5 out of the twenty casualties on the Israeli bus were Americans

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1312&ncid=1312&e=3&u=/ap/20030820/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_americans_killed_2

American WOMEN and CHILDREN are getting killed.

If the Palestinians keep this **** up, I think the US is going to step in and start taking some f*cking names ourself. :fork:

...course...I don't know where the hell we'd get the troops with nearly all active duty brigades already deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan :|

He219

08-20-2003, 03:36 PM

Personally, I don't believe in Dual-Citizenship. (http://travel.state.gov/loss.html)

:|

He219

08-20-2003, 04:16 PM

By Daybreak all hell should break loose....

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=400175

Israeli army tanks line up in the outskirts of the West Bank town of Ramallah Wednesday Aug. 20, 2003. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon approved a series of pinpointed military strikes, some of which could begin Wednesday evening after a suicide bomber killed 20 people and injured scores in downtown Jerusalem Tuesday. ( AP Photo/Nasser Nasser)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=400185

Israeli soldiers stand next to tanks being transported on trucks as they gather in the outskirts of the West Bank town of Ramallah Wednesday Aug. 20, 2003. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon approved a series of pinpointed military strikes, some of which could begin Wednesday evening, after a suicide bomber killed 20 people and injured scores in downtown Jerusalem Tuesday. ( AP Photo / Nasser Nasser)

lefador1

08-20-2003, 05:16 PM

Bootneck

08-20-2003, 05:33 PM

budanski

08-20-2003, 05:41 PM

lefador1

08-20-2003, 05:43 PM

Apples and oranges. The first case again comes down to the critical factor of intent - the Israeli bulldozer operator most likely failed to see this woman (according to some of the witnesses in your cited article, and common sense) where as the Palestinian suicide/homicide bomber chose his target with the clear intent to kill as many men, women and children as he could.

The USS Liberty case has been debated on this forum already and has no relevance to what's going on now.

Yay... nice tangential argument LOL.

If Palestinians kill Americans then we need to kick some P ass

If Israelis kill Americans then.... welll they really did not meant to, and it was the Americans fault anyways, you know... seee... it is different, see... the intent, you know... it is not the same... not relevant. Case closed.

Oh, I understand how it is now.... LOL :cantbeli:

lefador1

08-20-2003, 05:52 PM

Rachel Corrie and the millions marching to protect Saddam Hussein's Iraq have never uttered a peep against Palestinian terror, Iraqi totalitarianism, or North Korean gulags. Instead, they focus their animosity at the countries that confront these evils -- the United States and Israel.

You seem to not be able to comprehend that those people were not protecting "Saddam" but the Iraquis. I know it is a hard concept for you to get the 3 neurons working on, but give it enough time.

As harsh as it sounds. She knew what she was getting into. Call it suicide by stupidity.

Same could be said for those Americans who took the bus, right? They know what the risks were, right? No body forced them to take the bus, right? Your arguments can be used both ways, when you are trying to imply that it is the victim's fault.

Bad for Rachel Corrie.....Good for human evolution. The genetics stopped there.

But what a lovely and understanding comment..... I thought you guys got mad when foreigners kill Americans, somehow it seems that you seem to enjoy it!

You see? There is always a silver lining.

Lovely, so lets see... we are fighting for freedom, but if someone does not do something that you agree with... they deserve to die... riiiiight. I mean what a lovely concept of "freedom" you must have!

budanski

08-20-2003, 06:06 PM

You seem to not be able to comprehend that those people were not protecting "Saddam" but the Iraquis. I know it is a hard concept for you to get the 3 neurons working on, but give it enough time.

For the Iraqis eh? Why werent they there first to protect the Iraqis from Saddam himself? My bad. You seem to think that Saddam was a great guy.

Same could be said for those Americans who took the bus, right? They know what the risks were, right? No body forced them to take the bus, right? Your arguments can be used both ways, when you are trying to imply that it is the victim's fault.
Quote me where I've said anything about the Americans on the bus. Again, they knew what the risks were before going to Israel. I know to avoid hotspots when planning my vacations.

But what a lovely and understanding comment..... I thought you guys got mad when foreigners kill Americans, somehow it seems that you seem to enjoy it!Like I said, suicide by stupidity. Putting herself in that situation was all on her. Say, you interested in laying in front of my SUV then? I'm a strong believer in darwinism.

Lovely, so lets see... we are fighting for freedom, but if someone does not do something that you agree with... they deserve to die... riiiiight. I mean what a lovely concept of "freedom" you must have!
Who said we were fighting for freedom? Iraq was a threat to U.S. national securtity and we dealt with it. True with any other country.

ibstolidude

08-20-2003, 06:17 PM

regardless of claiming that the Palestinians are terrorists or that the Isreali's are terrorists.....

certainly even a knucklehead can determine the difference between a deliberate attack on non military target and the intentional/deliberate targetting of civilians. Although, it is no less tragic a loss that the act of bombing a bus full of non-combatants v/s the civilian casualities of a legitimate military target's attack..there exists an obvious difference.

although there has been much debate over the legal definition of Terrorism in the UN..
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html

lefador1

08-20-2003, 06:52 PM

For the Iraqis eh? Why werent they there first to protect the Iraqis from Saddam himself? My bad. You seem to think that Saddam was a great guy.

Nice try, so predictable.... Thanks for proving my point though..

Like I said, suicide by stupidity. Putting herself in that situation was all on her. Say, you interested in laying in front of my SUV then? I'm a strong believer in darwinism.

LOL.. I am afraid your mum may not let you play with her car just yet.

Who said we were fighting for freedom? Iraq was a threat to U.S. national securtity and we dealt with it. True with any other country.

sorry, I have a hard time trying to keep up with the excuse of the week for our invasion.

budanski

08-20-2003, 07:12 PM

Nice try, so predictable.... Thanks for proving my point though..
And your point was.....
Enlighten us how keeping Saddam in power was for the good of the Iraqis?

LOL.. I am afraid your mum may not let you play with her car just yet. Fine. Lay under my wife's SUV then. Hers is much more comfortable.... for me.

sorry, I have a hard time trying to keep up with the excuse of the week for our invasion.
"I know it is a hard concept for you to get the 3 neurons working on, but give it enough time..."

Grimjack

08-20-2003, 07:14 PM

Why is everyone getting worked up? This is the way things are and the way it ALWAYS will be. Any organized religion is a sham. Take from the poor and promise them heaven. Someone,somewhere is stepping on someone elses toes.The strong will always take from the weak.It's the law of nature. I could care less who is killing who. It goes on and on. I need to stop drinking so much.Heh.

Ngati Tumatauenga

08-20-2003, 07:22 PM

Yeah.......right..........whatever.

usa320

08-20-2003, 07:34 PM

"The first case again comes down to the critical factor of intent - the Israeli bulldozer operator most likely failed to see this woman (according to some of the witnesses in your cited article, and common sense) where as the Palestinian suicide/homicide bomber chose his target with the clear intent to kill as many men, women and children as he could. "

Exactly- the bulldozer wasnt intentional killing, the bombing WAS. 5 Americans, including a BABY were killed in the bombing...

"The Bush administration on Wednesday urged an immediate crackdown by the Palestinian Authority on extremist groups and called for the dismantling of their terrorist capabilities."

Hopefully Abbas will act... If he doesnt, it will show he is all talk.

At which point i think we should send a Marine Assault force and plop it off the Coast of Syria/Lebenon/palestine to send them a harsh message.

usa320

08-20-2003, 07:39 PM

"Abbas, who could lose his job if violence persists, has said he will not confront the militants -- as required by the peace plan -- because he fears internal fighting."

Feck him...methinks this should be his last chance to make things right...

duck

08-20-2003, 07:41 PM

:(

How do the Israeli soldiers spitting on palestinian civilians feel when they see the concentration camp documentaries. What is a man capable of when defending his pride and honor? WTF is arrogance and bigotry good for?

FallenAngel

08-20-2003, 07:45 PM

Right...

TANE- thank you thank you thank you. That is exactly what I have been saying! However, in the absence of any Palestinian action to prevent these bombings, I believe it has the same responsibility to protect it's citizens.

Grimjack...I am not even going to adress that nonsense. I don't agree with lefador1, but at least he's got genuine arguements ;)

usa320... I am all up for sending a MEF over there. They would straighten that **** out instantly. Not just Marines though, get some Europeans in there, some countries that can be viewed by Arabs (why we cater to them anyways is beyond me) as more nuetral than the US. German troops maybe? Dutch? Russian? Spanish? Luxemburg?

usa320

08-20-2003, 07:50 PM

"Same could be said for those Americans who took the bus, right? They know what the risks were, right? No body forced them to take the bus, right? Your arguments can be used both ways, when you are trying to imply that it is the victim's fault."

Riding on a bus shouldnt be dangerous.

Standing in front of a bulldozer, well... www.darwinawards.com

FallenAngel

08-20-2003, 07:50 PM

In more recent news....Abbas says he will arrest suspects...but ONLY WITH THE BACKING OF ARAFAT.

Participants in the Cabinet meeting, speaking on condition of anonymity, said ministers made several proposals, including freezing the groups' bank accounts and outlawing the military wings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Abbas listened to the ideas and said he would not move ahead without Arafat's backing, several of the ministers said. The prime minister also said he would demand that all security services be united under his command, and suggested he might step down if Arafat balks.

Great...now we know that Arafat is STILL in power...Abbas is just a puppet. I say we stop this ****. Either let the Israelis do what it takes to stop terrorism, or we'll do it because obviously the Palestinians wil never do it.

usa320

08-20-2003, 07:51 PM

Indeed, Abbas is still under the control of arafat, who IMHO should have been blown to **** years ago.

He219

08-20-2003, 08:04 PM

I will never advocate the intentional killing of civilians. However, there was another thread where some expressed the 'necessity' to kill civilians (notably the Firestorms and A-Bombs in WWII) in order to bring a populus to it's knees and to save the lives of our own combatants. Terrorism in Irsael is an act of sheer deperation. The Palestinians are living in a 'State of Separation' from within and outside of Israel. Tell me why it would not be called Apartheid?

As much as we see the need to recognize the right for an Israeli State to exist, it is inherently unjust to support and finance the continued illegal anexation of Palestinian Territiories for the growth of the Israeli State. Debate the merits of this injustice before making a rush to judgement.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=399221

Palestinians on horse-drawn carts wait to cross into Israel through a gate at the yet-to-be-completed fence built by Israeli authorities to separate the West Bank from Israel near the West Bank town of Qalqiliya Tuesday Aug. 19, 2003. Israel is building a combination of concrete walls, fences, razor-wire and trenches, part of a 600 kilometer (370 mile) barrier near the dividing line with the West Bank, arguing it is needed to keep out Palestinian militants, but residents say is strangling their livelihood and feeding anger toward Israel. (AP Photo/Oded Balilty)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=397953

Israeli soldiers build a military position overlooking Palestinian neighborhoods in the West Bank city of Hebron, August 17, 2003.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=399224

An Israeli soldier stands guard as a new checkpoint is built on the road between Bethlehem and Hebron, August 19, 2003.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=398673

Israeli police and border patrol officers stand guard, while two heavy machines demolish the home of the Al Jabari family, Israeli Arabs who are among the many homeowners which the Israeli government claims have built homes without a permit, in the Beit Hanina suburb of Jerusalem, near the border with the West Bank, Monday, Aug. 18, 2003

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=394579

A Palestinian woman from the Shehade family sits in the ruins of her newly-demolished home, in Wallaji village, in the outskirts of Arab East Jerusalem, several kilometers (miles) from the West Bank, Wednesday, Aug. 13, 2003. Israel destroyed five homes in Wallaji Wednesday, saying the Palestinian occupants were illegally living on Israeli land.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=393061

Palestinian farmer Hamed Salem displays his land ownership papers during a demonstration in the West Bank town of Jenin Monday Aug. 11, 2003 against the security wall and fence being built by Israel along the West Bank. Israel wants to cut itself off from the West Bank with a fence 600 kilometers (370 miles) long, in order to keep out possible Palestinian militants' attacks. The wall is being built, in some cases, on private Palestinian land.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=391042

The United Nations Human Rights Committee said on August 8, 2003 that Israel should halt construction of a fence around Palestinian land, calling it a violation of a pact on free movement of people. A Palestinian boy is shown riding his bicycle next to the security fence constructed by the Israeli army to separate Bethlehem from Jerusalem, near the settlement of Har Homa (background), July 15.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=391128

Palestinians look on as a bulldozer works among the rubble of a building destroyed by an explosion during an Israeli army operation in the Askar refugee camp in the West Bank city of Nablus, Friday, Aug. 8, 2003. Israeli troops battled gunmen from the Islamic Hamas group early Friday in a raid on a suspected bomb lab that killed one soldier and two militants following a month of relative calm in the region. Another Palestinian was also killed during clashes with the army in Nablus.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=389198

A Palestinian prisoner waves goodbye to fellow prisoners who are staying behind, as he leaves the Ketziot military prison in southern Israel, Wednesday Aug. 6, 2003. Israel freed the first of several hundred Palestinians slated for release Wednesday, transporting the prisoners to designated checkpoints on the edge of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=400052

An Israeli soldier guards outside Megiddo prison in northern Israel Wednesday, Aug. 20 2003 as smoke rises up from the prison. Troops and police fired tear gas at Palestinian prisoners, after an attempt to transfer inmates sparked a riot, officials and prisoners said.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=399390

Yitzhak Pass, a Jewish settler from the West Bank city of Hebron, is seen on July 23, 2003 arriving to court in Jerusalem for a remand hearing. Pass is one of five Jewish settlers arrested in the past month on suspicion of involvement in violence against Palestinians. The arrests have raised concerns in Israel about a new Jewish underground, reminiscent of the vigilante attacks on Palestinians in the 1980's. Five settlers from the West Bank city of Hebron and surrounding settlements have been arrested in the past month for alleged involvement in violence against Arabs, including a failed plot last year to detonate a bomb outside a Palestinian girls' school in Jerusalem.

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 08:29 PM

Through all this discussion of religion and history, we've forgotten the basic issue here:

There was a peace process. Progress was being made. That peace process depended on a cease-fire. With this act, Palestinians have undeniably broken said cease-fire. What should be done now?

He219

08-20-2003, 08:34 PM

warchild1/27scout

08-20-2003, 08:38 PM

i say we call a timeout and the next one that strikes we get together with the other and kick thier asses. stomp 'em so bad it will take about a 100 yrs. for them to get up enough strenth to attack again. :D

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 08:42 PM

Thanks Tane. As Sir Issac Newton's stated, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The policies you described are indeed not just momentary practices, but are an inherent pattern governing the formation and development of Israeli State itself. The fact is that the Arab is not considered as an equal by the Jew. This is the premise that has dictated the development of the socio-political landscape of the Entire Middle East.

As long as the Arab is not granted rights as equals on land occupied by Israelis, then there will never be peace. The killing is only spreading to our shores by us not recognizing this truth.

Incorrect. Arabs who are Israeli CITIZENS (roughly 20% of the Israeli populace) have full equal rights, protected by law. Regardless of their religion or whatever. They hold seats in Parliament and even the Supreme Court. Palestinians (residents of the lands won from Jordan and Egypt after Nasser's failed attack in 1967) are not Israeli citizens. Saying that Israel is an apartheid state for not treating Palestinians equally is like saying that Texas is an apartheid state for not treating illegal immigrants from Mexico equally.

StarvingStudent47: The Peace Process is a Scham! Even before this last bombing, Settlement activity has continued and more lands have been taken for construction of the Apartheid Fence.
So you consider a continuing squabble about real estate to be morally equivalent to murdering 20 people, including 5 children?

The peace process was this: "Quit killing people immediately, and we'll work through our real estate issues." The real estate issues were being worked through. But apparently Palestinian terrorists just couldn't go two months without blowing up a bus full of civilians. And Abbas didn't consider it important enough to take the necessary steps to prevent this.

Israel did not breach the cease-fire. The Palestinians did. And that was the one part of the process that was supposed to be ALREADY implemented.

S'13

08-20-2003, 08:43 PM

One of the people here had writing the next sentence in his reply: "May I remind you that Israel was funded by terrorism? Go and read on Ben Gurion and his band of merry men blowing up the King David hotel." the groups which fought the British in Israel prior to the establishment of the state of Israel were not in any way terorist groups. They targeted British soldiers and military targets, such as: war ships, railroad tracks, bridges, radars and so on, they also targeted arab terrorists who attacked jewish communitys in Israel. As for the famous blowing up of the King David hotel, the hotel itself was used as headquarters for the British army making it a legitimate target. May i also add that the men who carryed out the bombing telephoned the headquarters some time before doing so, telling the British to evacuate all the people who were in the building. I don't remember a "terrorist" group of any kind doing the same. Of course the British ignored the warning.

He219

08-20-2003, 09:17 PM

StarvingStudent47:

Concerns, voiced by these Jewish Arab sympathizer groups, include a poorer Arab standard-of-living, due to lower income, lower life expectancy, and higher infant mortality, as compared to Jews. Poor upkeep of Arab villages, including terrible road infrastructure, and open sewage, are also remarked upon, with blame attributed mainly to economic discrimination, the advocated redress for which is an infusion of funds.
http://www.brown.edu/Administration/George_Street_Journal/israel.html

Are you saying that the 'Separation Fence' is not dividing Arab communities from Jewish communities within Israel and the Occupied Territories? (Separation = Apartheid) How about that new Marriage Law.

after Nasser's failed attack in 1967
That crap again.
The Israelis attacked Egypt first (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/history4.html), on June 5, 1967.

So you consider a continuing squabble about real estate to be morally equivalent to murdering 20 people, including 5 children?

Squabble to you, the lives and liberties of Palestinian people to others. As for Murder:

In 33 months of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 2,414 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 806 on the Israeli side.

The Palestinian figure includes at least 99 suicide bombers, about 60 suspected informers for Israel killed by Palestinian militants, 13 Israeli Arabs killed in pro-Palestinian riots, a British U.N. staffer, an American peace activist, one Italian and one British journalist, and a German resident of the West Bank.

The Israeli figure includes four non-Jews killed in Israeli army uniform, at least 14 foreign workers, two international observers — Swiss and Turkish — and a Greek monk killed in a roadside shooting.

Also included in the Israeli figure are 35 Americans, many of them dual citizens.

Do the math, that's THOUSANDS of innocent Palestinian Civilians Killed!

Are Israeli lives more valueable than Arab lives? The breach (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-756715,00.html) in the Peace Process came with continued Settlement and Land aquisition activity in defiance of the Road Map. Israel is only acting as if it wants Peace with Arabs to continue 6 Billion Dollars in US Aid.

How about the killing of five-year-old Mohammed Qabha (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030725/80/e4xeg.html) by Israeli Troops?

m:

the groups which fought the British in Israel prior to the establishment of the state of Israel were not in any way terorist groups. They targeted British soldiers and military targets

Whatever...

The campaign against the British also used violence, with the first shots fired on British military and government facilities by underground Jewish armed groups: the Stern Gang and the Irgun. Zionist leaders like David Ben-Gurion called them misguided terrorists and at times even helped the British fight them.

But their operations intensified. In 1946, the Irgun blew up a wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem housing the British administration. Ninety were killed: roughly 30 Jews, 30 Arabs and 30 British.

But their operations intensified. In 1946, the Irgun blew up a wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem housing the British administration. Ninety were killed: roughly 30 Jews, 30 Arabs and 30 British.

NEWSREEL: As the toll of dead mounts daily in the bitter war of reprisals, tight security measures are imposed by the British. Scores of Jewish leaders are jailed and rigid searches are conducted for terrorists' weapons. These measures follow the hanging of two British sergeants by extremists. Palestine becomes an armed camp... .

SHUSTER: The armed Jewish gangs were commanded by men who would lead the Israeli state many years later.

SACHAR: Menachem Begin of course, ultimately to become a long-governing prime minister, was a member of the Irgun Z'vai Leumi, which was the largest element among the right-wing underground forces. But there were others who were even more extreme than he. One of them was a later prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir.

SHUSTER: Eventually the larger Zionist military organization, the Haganah, led by Ben-Gurion, joined the fight against the British.

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/transcripts/part-three.partition-20021002.html

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 09:18 PM

If both the Israelis and Palestinians have so much hatred...maybe they need something to hate more than each others. A bad cheesecake, perhaps?

S'13

08-20-2003, 09:31 PM

To He219, thanks for the brilliant case which you have brought against my reply. "Whatever". You have proven me wrong, BRAVO...

He219

08-20-2003, 09:34 PM

To He219, thanks for the brilliant case which you have brought against my reply. "Whatever". You have proven me wrong, BRAVO...

Zionist leaders like David Ben-Gurion called them misguided terrorists

Stating the self evident. No need to get bent out of shape.....

lefador1

08-20-2003, 09:39 PM

And your point was.....
Enlighten us how keeping Saddam in power was for the good of the Iraqis?

My point being that your feeble mind can not differenciate between Iraquis and Saddam Hussein. Those human shields were only concerned with possible loss of innocent life, protecting civilians does not equal to protect Saddam. If you are so concerned with removing Saddam, a single sniper would have done the job far quicker, cheaper, and without losing so many innocent lives. Destroying a country in order to "save" is quite retarded.

But please, go on with the whole "Saddam lover" defense, yawn, quite boring really.

Fine. Lay under my wife's SUV then. Hers is much more comfortable.... for me.

LOL I don't think you wanna go there....

"I know it is a hard concept for you to get the 3 neurons working on, but give it enough time..."

LOL at least I would expect some original thought to come out after I gave you enough time, I was mistaken...

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 09:43 PM

This always happens in Israeli-Palestinian threads. When confronted by simple statements like:

Israel agreed to end incursions if Palestinians ended terrorist attacks. This was the first and most fundamental part of Bush's "Road Map to Peace." Palestinians failed their half of the bargain. What should be done in response?

Critics of Israel always dodge those simple questions, instead jumping to all sorts of unrelated topics, from an accidental friendly-fire incident in 1967 to Jewish paramilitary groups that were put down with lethal force over 50 years ago. They just refuse to answer the question. Either that or they make arguments that boil down to "Until Israel grants Palestinian terrorists everything they have ever asked for, regardless of what it is, Palestinians will be morally authorized to murder as many Israelis as they please."

budanski

08-20-2003, 09:44 PM

Hows this for 'ORIGINAL' then?
http://www.noisedesignlab.com/buddy/head_up_ass.png

James

08-20-2003, 09:46 PM

Here's what we need to do. Get the biggest, strongest bruiser of an Israeli, and a similar gigantic Palestinian. Put them in a cage like the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

An alternative would be to organize a duel a-la Sergio Leone...

I am curious - what are the respective populations of Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories? Please advise.

He219

08-20-2003, 09:47 PM

lefador1, I totally disagree with you. Many attempts upon Saddam's life were made, by many. Would you not have wanted his entire regieme to be removed? The country certainly was not destroyed by US bombing and lives were indeed spared by not using indescriminate bombing techniques.

Take it easy on the personal attacks......

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 09:48 PM

My point being that your feeble mind can not differenciate between Iraquis and Saddam Hussein. Those human shields were only concerned with possible loss of innocent life, protecting civilians does not equal to protect Saddam. If you are so concerned with removing Saddam, a single sniper would have done the job far quicker, cheaper, and without losing so many innocent lives. Destroying a country in order to "save" is quite retarded.

Funny, it worked just fine in 1990s Kosovo. There was little liberal opposition then. What was the difference? I really hope it isn't something as simple as a Democrat at the helm instead of a Republican--yet that seems to be a critical difference for many people I've spoken with. That sort of double standard is sad. And I'm a Democrat saying this!!!

budanski

08-20-2003, 09:56 PM

*'Mr. Originality' bump

Hows this for 'ORIGINAL' then?
http://www.noisedesignlab.com/buddy/head_up_ass.png

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 10:01 PM

I am curious - what are the respective populations of Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories? Please advise.

That question isn't as easy as you'd think. Yassir Arafat and the Palestinian Authority commonly refer to every single inch of Israel as "occupied territory," so the Israeli population in "Occupied Territories" is about 8 million. Many Israelis feel that Israel won the West Bank and Gaza Strip fair and square in 1967, after Nasser's failed invasion (to whoever challenged this--Nasser's naval blockade of Israel is recognized as causus belli--the official legal cause of the 1967 war--by all credible sources on military and international law). So they would claim that there is no such thing as "Occupied Territories" to begin with, any more than Texas is an "occupied territory" of the United States. They also point out that over 90% of lands annexed in 1967 have already been handed back, yet terrorism has since increased, not decreased.

Other Israelis, while not disagreeing with the necessity of the 1967 war, are willing to hand back much of the remaining lands with the exception of Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter (which, due to the UN's sick sense of humor, was under control by Jordan until 1967). All the lands that would be handed back in this case are beyond the "Green Line." I believe that roughly 10,000 Israelis and 1,000,000 Palestinians live on the far side of the Green Line, though those numbers might be off.

S'13

08-20-2003, 10:03 PM

UoUo

08-20-2003, 10:07 PM

He219

08-20-2003, 10:09 PM

Put them in a cage like the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

:P

StarvingStudent47:

You brought up the points, I give evidence.

Israel agreed to end incursions if Palestinians ended terrorist attacks. This was the first and most fundamental part of Bush's "Road Map to Peace." Palestinians failed their half of the bargain. What should be done in response?

Actually, the first step called for an immediate cessation of Palestinian violence, reform of Palestinian political institutions, the dismantling of Israeli settlement outposts built since March 2001 and a progressive Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories in a series of confidence building measures.

Just as the Palestinians failed at reigning in extremist terrorists, so did the Israelis fail by annexing more territory with the construction of the Apartheid Fence and through continued expansion of Settlements.

For example; building is underway now of 200 settlers’ units on Karm al-Mufti in Wadi el-Jouz neighborhood of east Jerusalem, 130 units are being added to Ras el-A’mood settlement, and 200 units are being built on the lands of Abu Dis, all in occupied east Jerusalem.

It is not surprising that both sides are violating both the letter and the spirit of the agreement while blithely proclaiming their commitment to peace. What is surprising is the nearly total silence of the US and EU in the face of Israeli and Palestinian violations, and the almost total silence of peace groups. Only one non-issue has preoccupied both the US government and the different peace and Palestinian advocacy groups in recent weeks: the Israel security fence.
http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/

StarvingStudent47

08-20-2003, 10:10 PM

He219, i congratulat you. This time you brought a real argument. Ben-Gurion may have been a zionist leader but he wasn't the only one. another leader called Vladimir Jabotinsky supported these groups attacks. The difference between Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky was that Ben-Gurion was a Labor Zionist and Jabotinsky was a Revisionist Zionist. Revisionist Zionism had a much more aggressive approach to what should be done to the British soldiers stationed in Isreal and many times when the Revisionist "Lehi" and "IZL" carryed out attacks, Ben-Gurion would criticize them but this didn't stop the Labor Zionist "Hagna" group from carrying out there own attacks againts British and Arab targets, sometimes together with the "Lehi" and the "IZL".

It really is worth re-emphasizing though, that when the Irgun continued to smuggle in guns during the 1948 War, Ben Gurion diverted troops from fighting the Arab armies to stop the Irgun from re-arming. Israeli officials opened fire on the ship carrying guns, killing 12 Irgun members and wounding many others. The message was simple: ISRAEL WILL NOT TOLERATE TERRORISTS, GUERILLAS, INSURGENTS, OR THE LIKE. Later terrorist groups have also been viciously hunted down by Israeli officials, including the recent "Kach" movement. Even He219's picture of a modern Jewish terrorist...is a picture of him in handcuffs, being led off by Israeli authorites. Nuff said.

S'13

08-20-2003, 10:29 PM

StarvingStudent47, you are correct. Israel didn't want any other fighting force except for the IDF which was just formed mostly on the basis of the "Hgana" but also the "Lehi" and the "IZL". Ben-Gurion didn't want anything left of these groups which could be a fighting force separate from the IDF. Especially if this force would be a Revisionist one which could pose a threat to the Labor government and to the unification of the Israeli people. Before Israel was formed all of these groups were legitimate fighting groups and after it they were used as the basis for the israeli army.

FallenAngel

08-20-2003, 10:30 PM

Not to sound like an ignorant fool...but I thought the security fence was going up on the Israeli side of the pre-1967 border. If so, then is the fence any more "illegal" than the one between the US and Mexico?

UoUo

08-20-2003, 10:39 PM

Seiyuuki

08-20-2003, 10:41 PM

If you are so concerned with removing Saddam, a single sniper would have done the job far quicker, cheaper, and without losing so many innocent lives. Destroying a country in order to "save" is quite retarded.

So you condone assassination? Assassinating Saddam won't help solve the problem, it will just leave a power gap...or maybe not, he does have two sons...well, maybe yes, they could end up fighting each other for power and throwing the country into a civil war...if not them, power-hunger generals or warlords probably try to go at each other throats.

usa320

08-20-2003, 10:50 PM

Indeed, you dont just shoot the leader of a country without nuetralizing his supporters or having a sufficient force to replace him and his army. Just shooting Saddam and running away would have 1) Left a messy power vaccum. 2) Left an open slot for another nutcase to move into *cough*his sons*cough* and 3) Would have lead the iraqi people to believe we dont give a rats ass about em.

And as for lefador1, he seems to suffer from a classic case of rectal-cranial inversion. Refer to Budanski's inforgraphic for further information.

People cannot compare Israel's use of Precision guided munitions against pin pointed targets and individuals who are linked to terrorism, to the indiscriminate and disgusting use of suicide bombs against innocent civlians. A American baby got killed, was he not innocent because of the things israel does? Didnt think so... Why dont you terrorist lovers go to freakin Tehran or Damascus or San'a and make love to your terrorist lovers instead of annoying the civilized and intelligent people of the world.

Thats right,

http://www.x-plane.org/users/usa320/stfu.jpg

UoUo

08-20-2003, 10:54 PM

usa320

08-20-2003, 10:58 PM

No, not :hug:

Its more like

http://www.x-plane.org/users/butcherbird/bruceowned.gif

vryhpyammoadded

08-20-2003, 11:02 PM

Israel is said to be preparing a large-scale aerial and SOF attack on both syrian air defenses and palestinian terrorist groups in Lebanon and Syria. First knocking out the air defense systems and then trying to eliminate once and for all the terrorist hideouts on lebanese soil. Apparently, some arab governments are turning to the Bush administration to prevent this, but what comes out remains to be seen.

Oh great the Syrian Air Force is about to go down in flames again. What happened last time; 90 to 1 losses?
With Saddam gone, the local hostiles should be begging the US to hold Israel back. The next few days should prove very telling of future US Mideast policy and, depending on what Bush does, force regional powers even more to address local hypocrisy.

usa320

08-20-2003, 11:10 PM

Indeed, if this mess goes into Syria and Lebanon, we will see another airborne turkey shoot, unless they learned from the last time NOT to challenge F-15's with MiG-17's that are barely airworthy...

fisheyestudio

08-20-2003, 11:42 PM

Hey howdy hey!

First off let me say thanks to Militaryphotos.net for providing a free and open forum for the exchange of thoughts and "information". I hope each of us takes the time to appriciate the magnitude of the freedom we are able to exercise in this virtual world (and remember the price that has been paid to purchase this for us...)

I do not know if any of you are familiar with the major old testament covenants. I have been a Christian for 24 years but it has only been in the last two that I have spent any time with these truths. The source and solution of all the current problems within the middle east and the whole world reside within these "promises".

Here is a simple listing. If interested, take the time to dig some of this out for yourself.

Abrahamic covenant: From Abraham a great nation, that would bless all nations, would come... Genesis 12:1-7...

Palestinian covenant: Promised land would be an everlasting possion (genesis 13:14-15), God would bring the people back into the land (first in unbelief and then in a state of belief). Deuteronomy 30:1-10

Mosaic Covenant(Law/Ten Commandments): You've probably seen the movie..hehe...but the real story is even better... Exodus 19:5, 24:7

Davidic Covenant: King David would have a desendant (from his blood line), who would sit upon an eternal throne 2 Samuel 7:11b-16

New Covenant: This promise is now being partially fullfilled through the Church and will be completely fullfilled when the remnant of Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah... Jeremiah 31:31-34

Well there is alot of stuff to look at, if you are willing to invest the time you will not be dissappointed.

So how does that all fit...(in my opinion, based upon lots of study and seeking after Truth)... The Jewish nation will continue to suffer under increasing "tribulation" untill such a time as the nation repents and accepts Christ as the Messiah. It is only then that they can call Jesus back and the "second coming" will occur.

There is so much I have left out but I trust that what has been written may tweek the curiousity of anyone who is really looking to understand this whole situation and is seeking after Truth!

Jesus blessings!
chris holloman

FallenAngel

08-20-2003, 11:42 PM

Oh great the Syrian Air Force is about to go down in flames again. What happened last time; 90 to 1 losses?

I think the actual figure was something like 37:1

Its still an ass kicking either way you slice it. :)

usa320

08-21-2003, 12:43 AM

yowza- did anyone read that religious stuff- i go to church and read the bible, but i just cant see how religion can be applied at this point other than praying for peace and justice.

Seiyuuki

08-21-2003, 12:55 AM

fisheyestudio

We don't need more religion to add to the equation. Do you really think it's smart to tell the Jews to convert to Christianity?

Christianity conducted three Crusades against Islam and there's still animosity between the two major religions...I seriously doubt the Muslims in the region will go easy on the Jews even if they accept Christ.

So

There is so much I have left out but I trust that what has been written may tweek the curiousity of anyone who is really looking to understand this whole situation and is seeking after Truth!

More religion just make it more chaotic.

usa320

08-21-2003, 01:16 AM

^what he said

StarvingStudent47

08-21-2003, 01:39 AM

I'll consider converting to Christianity to protect myself from terrorists when terrorists quit targeting Christian missionaries in the Middle East...until then, I hardly see the advantage of giving up matzo ball soup and eight days of Hanukkah ;)

fisheyestudio

08-21-2003, 01:48 AM

Hey howdy hey!

I totally agree that religion is not the answer, I hate religion (as did Jesus). But please take the time to study your own scriptures. I know that the oral law(mishna, talmud) is now prevelant and is taught to be superior to the written law...but the truth is there. It is not about Jews converting to "Christianity" but about studying the prophets and seeing that Jesus is the messiah...just as He said He was.

I know that these topics easily slide into the muck of generalizations, stereo types, and a general state of thoughtlessness...but just check out what I shared foryourself, as a Jew or Gentile.

God will offend our minds to win our hearts...

Jesus blessings!
chris holloman

StarvingStudent47

08-21-2003, 02:35 AM

fisheyestudio--the following is not meant to be confrontational, but it is meant to be firm.

You are far from the first Christian evangelist that I have met in my life. I have heard this all before. Thanks but no thanks; I'm happy the way I am.

Seiyuuki

08-21-2003, 02:40 AM

usa320

08-21-2003, 03:23 PM

I could start a whole nother thread......

About how this one sucks. :cantbeli:

James

08-22-2003, 03:21 AM

There are 150.000 jews in the "Occupied Territories" and about 3,500,000
millions pal'

but i must say that all israelis agreed to give back the "Occupied Territories" to the pal'

the issue is about the refuge camps...the pal' wnat them back into israel...and israel can't agree with that.

I need to research this before I shoot my mouth, er, fingers off here. Are these refugee camps the result of the foundation of Israel in 1948?

Another question - If all Israelis voted to return the occupied territories to the Palestinians, is the Israeli Government disregarding them?

That brings outrage to a whole new level - the people vote to give the Palestinians their lands back, but the government says no. WTF?

Isn't Israel a democracy? Perhaps we need Operation "Israeli Freedom" :roll:

UoUo

08-22-2003, 09:07 AM

There are 150.000 jews in the "Occupied Territories" and about 3,500,000
millions pal'

but i must say that all israelis agreed to give back the "Occupied Territories" to the pal'

the issue is about the refuge camps...the pal' wnat them back into israel...and israel can't agree with that.

Another question - If all Israelis voted to return the occupied territories to the Palestinians, is the Israeli Government disregarding them?

That brings outrage to a whole new level - the people vote to give the Palestinians their lands back, but the government says no. WTF?

Isn't Israel a democracy? Perhaps we need Operation "Israeli Freedom" :roll:

no...the gov agreed to give back the "occupied territories" ... the pal refuse...they wanted ..that the pal' in other countries..like lebanon..jorden..can back into israel...and israel can't afford this.

and we are the only democracy in the area...

budanski

08-22-2003, 10:48 AM

Classic Arafat. He rejected a Palestinian State in 2000 because 90% wasnt good enough.

usa320

08-22-2003, 12:08 PM

arafat is gay.

StarvingStudent47

08-22-2003, 12:27 PM

arafat is gay.

No, Elton John is gay. Arafat is just a cold-blooded murderer.

usa320

08-23-2003, 02:10 AM

No, Elton John is gay. Arafat is just a cold-blooded murderer.

No, arafat is 1) A cold blooded murder. 2) Gay 3) Fat (hence the arafat

And yes, Elton John is VERY gay.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay3.jpghttp://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay5.jpghttp://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay9.gifhttp://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay14.jpg

IM NOT SURE WHO IS GAYER- ELTON JOHN OR RICHARD SIMMONS?????

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay13.jpg

definately simmons upon second look.

Seiyuuki

08-23-2003, 02:33 AM

Read this...i hope it's going to explain you what is going on here better then me.

Didn't Israel drive out 600,000 Palestinians at gunpoint in 1948 and take their land?

Most Arabs who left Israel did so under the orders of the Arab leader, the Grand Mufti, to withdraw and let the Arab armies "drive the Jews into the sea," which they attempted in 1948. However Israel won that war. Not all of the Arabs left, and Israel is now 18% Arab. These Arabs have full citizenship rights, can own property, vote, and have 14 representatives in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament.

I've heard that some Israelis say there is no such thing as Palestinians. How can they say that?

Up until the 1967 war, the Arabs living in Israel did not even call themselves Palestinians -- twenty years after the founding of the modern state of Israel. The name Palestine came from the Romans who destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. To humiliate the Jews, the Romans renamed the land Palestine after their mortal enemies, the Philistines. The modern land of Palestine was given that name by the British when they took control over from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. In British Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians.

(See "What is a Palestinian?" at Masada 2000)

Why doesn't Israel just give back the West Bank to the Palestinians? Then there will be peace.

In 1948, Israel's Arab neighbors tried to destroy the State of Israel. They rejected a Palestinian State, which the UN offered them at the same time as when Israel was founded. Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan. Currently Jordan has a peace treaty with Israel. The West Bank, which Jews call Judea and Samaria, is part of the ancient kingdom of Israel, and has been home to Arabs and Jews for thousands of years. Arafat himself said he will take back Israel in its entirety, if he has to do it all at once or piece by piece.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is looking for any excuse to invade and shoot Palestinians. Why did the Israeli people even elect him?

The directives given the IDF are strictly against the taking of innocent civilian life. Sharon withdrew ELEVEN times from the West Bank to effect a cease-fire. Each time Israel was attacked by suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority failed to arrest them And instead paid their families awards. They even named streets after them as "martyrs". How can anyone take an enemy seriously that encourages the terror attacks? In 2000, President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak tried to offer the Palestinians a state, which included 95% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected the offer and launched the latest intifada or uprising. The sniper killings and suicide bombings are the method used to attack Israeli citizens. The Israeli people, who were angered when Arafat rejected Barak's offer, elected the hard-liner Sharon by a la! ndslide. Sharon has prevented more terror attacks than he has instigated. To blame him for the terror attacks is like blaming a woman for being raped.

Why are there so many more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis? Doesn't this prove that Israel is the aggressor here?

Several reasons combine to explain the differential death toll. First, the numbers are skewed. The Palestinians count the suicide bombers as "civilian casualties". They also count terrorists killed in shootouts with the police or IDF. Fact is, if civilians were only counted, Israeli casualties would be higher. Snipers who open fire on civilians are immediately hunted down and arrested, but many fight until they are shot. A big factor appears to be Palestinian gunmen who hide themselves in populated areas, which causes a high civilian death toll when the IDF tries to shoot back at them. The IDF has a policy of a measured response to a terrorist attack. These reprisals rarely involve death or injury. Also, given the P.A.'s problems with math, such as claiming 1,500 killed in Jenin when it was 52, their calculations are highly suspect. Israel has 10,000 people who are invalids, in comas or scarred in other ways for life.

Wait a minute! Israel has a heavily armed state-of-the-art military and the Palestinians only have rocks and a few old guns. Shouldn't our sympathies be with the Palestinians who only want their freedom from oppression and the opportunity for self-rule?

The Palestinians are using more than rocks, although stonings can be very violent too, causing death and serious injury. They have Qasem rockets. They have grenades. They have M-16's and Kalashnikovs [Ed.: Russian made assault rifles]. Arafat demanded weapons claiming he needed an armed police force to keep order. Those guns, provided by none other than Israel, have been linked with numerous terrorist attacks. Many weapons have been smuggled in from Egypt as well. The Palestinian police ARE the terrorists such as Fatah and Al Aksa. Currently the Palestinians, have self-rule under the Oslo accords yet persist in attacking Israel.

Don't the Israelis build roads and freeways that bypass Palestinian villages and they aren't allowed to use them?

They do bypass them. They were built because when Israelis drive by them they are shot at or have rocks thrown at them. Boulders dropped from heights above the roads have killed some. If the Israelis built freeways on Arab land, they'd complain the Israelis were taking Arab land or that they were damaging the environment.

Every time a Palestinian wants to go somewhere they have to go thru an Israeli checkpoint. Isn't this humiliating for the Palestinian people?

Humiliating? US citizens have to wait two hours at checkpoints at the airport. It's called security against terrorism. Suicide bombers kill Arabs too.

The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) regularly prevents ambulances from picking up sick and wounded people. Isn't this a crime against humanity?

They don't prevent medical care. However, time and time again the Arabs have transported bombs and terrorists in ambulances so now they must be thoroughly checked. Israel gives free medical care to many Palestinians. In Jenin last April, the IDF supplied blood to the hospital for wounded Palestinians. But the blood was rejected because the Palestinians would not use Jewish blood. So the IDF using military transports brought in blood from Jordan.

The Israelis have stopped the Palestinians from normal commerce, from employment, and now they are suffering from food shortages. How can they justify this?

Commerce and employment were higher when Israel controlled the area. In nine years with billions of dollars in aid the PA has failed even to feed its people. PA warlords under Arafat control UN food allotments and even sell it on the black market. It has been the terrorist attacks that have made business as usual impossible and have hurt the Palestinian economy.

When the Israelis say that the Arabs only wish to drive them into the sea, aren't they just being paranoid and using this excuse to justify their aggressions against the Palestinians?

5.5 million Jews. 250 million Arabs. Missiles with germ and radiological warheads on Israel's northern frontier controlled by Hizbollah. 21 terrorist attacks a day against common Israelis. The Arabs said "into the sea" in 1948 and even after Oslo. This is paranoid???

Didn't the International Conference in Durban, South Africa condemn Israel as a racist state?

The conference was made up of Arab dictatorships pushing their own agenda. The US and most of Europe boycotted the vote.

The Palestinians and the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years. Aren't they equally responsible for the violence?

They have not been fighting for thousands of years. The Arabs persecuted Jews. The difference is the Arabs won't tolerate a Jewish presence in the Muslim Middle East -- period. The Jews offer to negotiate peace but the Arabs are really just negotiating the end of Israel.

The suicide bombings are terrible, but aren't they done by a small handful of extremists? Isn't it wrong to condemn all the Palestinian people for the acts of a few?

Evidence shows that as many as twelve extremist groups conduct terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. Hamas, Hezbollah, The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah are a few of them. In many cases, the same individuals who are security for the Palestinian Authority conduct the terrorist attacks. Opinion polls among the Palestinian population reveal 90% approve of the suicide bombings. Thousands dance in the streets when a lethal suicide bombing is executed. The few who would work for peace run the risk of being arrested or lynched for being a collaborator with Israel. Historically, the Arabs persecuted Jews. The idea of wearing a yellow star as the mark of Jew was begun by the Arabs and copied by the Nazis. Just a note..the Arabs even have suicide bomber trading cards now like we have baseball! cards.

Why does Israel practice collective punishment against the Palestinian people?

Israel does not practice collective punishment. The security checkpoints are there solely to prevent more suicide bombings and attacks. During a reprisal, such as the bombing of a house from which sniper shots have been fired, a warning is given and THAT HOUSE is destroyed. Likewise, wanted criminals are found and executed since it is impossible to hold them accountable in a court of law under Arafat's regime. Often it is easy to determine the culprit. The Palestinians carry them on their shoulders in the street, put up posters praising them, and name streets after them. Contrast this with the almost daily attacks on Israeli civilians making all citizens fearful of going shopping for groceries, riding a bus, or stopping in for a piece of pizza.

I know that the Israelis don't want to deal with Prime Minister Yassir Arafat, but didn't the majority of the Palestinian people elect him?

Arafat ran the same type of Arab election as Saddam Hussein or Bashir Assad. He ran against one candidate, an 85 year-old woman who told everyone to vote for Arafat. When he first took control of the territories he murdered all the Arabs who administered the territories under Israel as "collaborators" in a sports stadium. Even Hitler and Stalin could claim to be democratically elected leaders the same as Arafat. But were they? The PA suspended all elections until President Bush said a "reformed" leadership was needed. Arafat's "reform" does not include his stepping down. He has postponed elections twice and now says not for a year until he can once again control the outcome.

Aren't the Jewish settlers on the West Bank just an excuse for Sharon to invade the Palestinian areas? And given how much opposition the Palestinians have to building homes on the West Bank, isn't Sharon just encouraging more suicide bombings?

Many Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, believe the land of Judea and Samaria to be divinely given to the Jewish people. However, the Jewish settlements are on 1.7% of the West Bank. While home-building by Jews is often given as a reason for conducting more suicide bombing attacks (sadly documented in video tapes made by the teenage bombers shortly before they conducted an attack), does this sound even slightly reasonable? To commit suicide and mass murder to protest the building of homes by people of another religion? The settlements have residents who own homes and businesses as well. Why can't they stay as part of a state of Palestine and be Palestinian citizens as part of a peace settlement? The reason is the Ar! abs who accuse democratic Israel of racism repeatedly say NO JEWS may live anywhere in Palestine.

The conflict between the Muslims and the Jews is religous at its core. Isn't it really an insoluble issue marked by religious intolerance on both sides?

While there are sects of Islam which use passages in the Koran to justify the killing of infidels, there are also passages in the Koran which forbid suicide. Other passages teach that lands given by the Lord to other peoples are given for a reason known only to God. Likewise, religious Jews, who remain fixed on prophesies of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, the return of the Jewish people to the State of Israel, and the coming of the messiah are not likely to give in to Arab pressure to leave their holy sites. For the Arabs it is a tribal affair of honor and vengeance. Racism is at its core. Racism is a sickness and sicknesses can be cured. Israel seriously wants peace with the Arabs, but not at the expense of her existence being whittled away bit by bit through terrorism until she is destroyed. The healing will come when the world focuses its energies on helping the Arab world to come out of generations of tribal warfare, the subjugation of women, illiteracy and feudal kingdoms. These are the conditions, which spawn hatred of the Jews, which is only slightly more vehement than their hatred of the Christians

Seiyuuki

08-23-2003, 02:36 AM

Do you know how many threads there are just on this subject alone?

Seiyuuki

08-23-2003, 07:22 PM

Did you know...if you type in "Israel and Palestinians" in the Search option of the forum...there's 41 matches!!!