US Secret Service Using FN Five-seveN?

[DmL5]

Anybody here able to give me rock-solid proof that the US Secret Service are using the Five-seveN pistol? I'm quite sure of it myself, but there are people who do not believe me and I need some good proof of it. Thanks.

[squeak]

Don't know about the pistol, they do use the P-90 though.

[FallenAngel]

US Secret Service standard issue is the SiG P229 in 357.

Course, like most law enforcement agencies, I'm sure that individual agents can buy/carry another firearm.

[Glock]

Are you sure that they are using P229 .357? Normaly VIP Protecting prefers 9mm. I know that they got P90 and some fiveseven, but they also got some IMI Jericho.
Greatings Leo

[FallenAngel]

Got it strait from the US Sec. Service website. Check under "FAQ for Kids" ;)

[Michael RVR]

hahaha faq for kids. :lol:

[Argyll]

Got it strait from the US Sec. Service website. Check under "FAQ for Kids" ;)

rofl .............priceless

[-Max2-]

Anybody here able to give me rock-solid proof that the US Secret Service are using the Five-seveN pistol? I'm quite sure of it myself, but there are people who do not believe me and I need some good proof of it. Thanks.

The US Secret Service are using the FN Five-SeveN Tactical. In fact, the Five-SeveN Tactical (a modified version of the 5-7 with a Picatinny rail and a few others minors modifications) was made from a request of the USSS.

I read that in the French guns magazine "Cibles" (issue Nr. 400 of July 2003).

The Five-SeveN Tactical: http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/machine_guns/fnherstal/fnherstal2.html

[DmL5]

The US Secret Service are using the FN Five-SeveN Tactical. In fact, the Five-SeveN Tactical (a modified version of the 5-7 with a Picatinny rail and a few others minors modifications) was made from a request of the USSS.

I read that in the French guns magazine "Cibles" (issue Nr. 400 of July 2003).


Thanks for the input, but these 'people' still don't think its enough proof; to quote them:

Hey buddy, you're wrong. Just back away. It's the 229. Your misguided online source is wrong, the guy who told him is wrong and the guy that made it up and told him is wrong. Go to the website, look at the FAQ for kids and read 229.
No special guy who you don't really know has the 57. Keep arguing this cause I'm laughing at you as are many other people that see you pushing this misinformation campaign. Congratulation you have pics of the SS with the P90 wow so do half of DC's tourists. Show me 1 legit pic of an officer or agent with the 57. That's your challenge if you must continue this. I've read your other posts (pleas for help) on this issue and you got nowhere looking for 'rock solid proof'. So show me where it is you know more about what me and mine are doing than I do.

[Uncle Sam]

The Five-seveN is poo!

[scm77]

The Five-seveN is poo!

It certainly looks like poo. :(

[yiorgo]

the Five-seven IS used by the secret service.....my brother in law is a secret service agent so tell the dumb asses who think they know what they are talking about that YOU are correct.....standard issue side arm is the 357 sig with the sig 380 as back up....but the boys in the white house use P90s and carry the five-seven......oh and who ever thinks the gun is crap needs to actually fire one....it my LOOK like poo but handles awesome.....has hardly any kick...and i was making head shots all day at 50yrds EXTREMELY accurate.....tell the nonbelievers that JUST becouse it isnt posted on the web site doesnt mean they ARENT using them LOL rofl

[soma]

MY BROTHER IS THE PRESIDENT.



Do you see my point there?

[yiorgo]

yes i see your point....but the fact of the matter still remains that my brother in law IS a secret service agent and is actually working detail at the convention as we speak......so you can take the TRUTH which i have supplied you with and run with it, or you can make dumb ass remarks like your brother is President...either way its no skin off my balls

[-Max2-]

Thanks for the input, but these 'people' still don't think its enough proof; to quote them:

Hey buddy, you're wrong. Just back away. It's the 229. Your misguided online source is wrong, the guy who told him is wrong and the guy that made it up and told him is wrong. Go to the website, look at the FAQ for kids and read 229.
No special guy who you don't really know has the 57. Keep arguing this cause I'm laughing at you as are many other people that see you pushing this misinformation campaign. Congratulation you have pics of the SS with the P90 wow so do half of DC's tourists. Show me 1 legit pic of an officer or agent with the 57. That's your challenge if you must continue this. I've read your other posts (pleas for help) on this issue and you got nowhere looking for 'rock solid proof'. So show me where it is you know more about what me and mine are doing than I do.

If the AR15.com guys dont believe me, i dont care. I write only what i read.

What about their sources ?

"FAQ for kids" from the SS website, nice. :roll:

I checked the FAQ and they mentioned only a handful of weapons used by the SS. For example, no P90 (who is used by the SS, there are even pics of SS agents with P90s).


Show me 1 legit pic of an officer or agent with the 57.

:cantbeli:

They are Secret Service agents. Its almost impossible to find a pic of a SS agent with a 5-7. Especially with a pistol, who is small, and difficult to identify in a holster.

[yiorgo]

wasnt there a pic not to long ago on this site ....where someone jumped the whitehouse gate and was jumped by the SS...it shows them holding the P90 and five seven correct??

[DmL5]

wasnt there a pic not to long ago on this site ....where someone jumped the whitehouse gate and was jumped by the SS...it shows them holding the P90 and five seven correct??

It shows them holding P-90's, but like I said, its hard to get pics of a sidearm in use and in these pics its impossible to tell what their sidearm is.

[Beardog]

I checked the FAQ and they mentioned only a handful of weapons used by the SS. For example, no P90 (who is used by the SS, there are even pics of SS agents with P90s).


Stop calling them SS. That makes me nerveous. :bash:

[-Max2-]

Stop calling them SS. That makes me nerveous.

:roll:

When i say "SS", its for Secret Service of course. Where is the problem ?

Geez.

[Beardog]

I know, but you have to admit it is scary when you are talking about the guys who are responsible for the life of the president and you wright SS.

[Spooky]

Fun little thread on the 5.7 x 28mm if anyone is interested. It's quite old but has some awesome resources and basically proves the P90/Five-Seven to be poor performing for military/law enforcement applications.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000050.html

[ogukuo72]

It's an interesting website, but it's kinda of hard to believe that so many agencies around the world - including some reputable ones like the Secret Service - could have gotten it wrong. It was also used by the Peruvians in the Japanese Embassy assault back in 1997.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The US SF and other Govt agencies seem to have a fondness for Euro weapons I would have thought that the American arms industry would have fought back before now and produced some effective competition.

[DmL5]

Spooky, here is some interesting info I found regarding your link:


In actuality, the wound channel is approx. 3.5 to 4 in. due to the fact that the round tumbles in soft tissue and after it exits a solid medium such as wood or drywall. This system has also had a 100% fatality rate in the U.S. What this means is that everyone who was shot in a vital region of the body has expired. One subject in Sioux Fall S.D. was shot in the hand and the arm through a solid core door. He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered, leaving him with little use of the arm. Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. I doubt that if this round had a wound channel that resembled a .22 Mag, it would do that sort of damage. Also the Secret Service and the Federal Protective Service has adopted the P90 as their new PDW. They did exhaustive tests of both reliability and ballistics. The SS190 bullet is almost 1 in. long. If it were passing sideways through soft tissue, which is what it does when it tumbles, it would certainly create at least a 1" wound cavity. Now, add to that syntactical energy produced by the round traveling 2300 fps (P90) or 2100 (FsN) and you have soft tissue tearing off the axis' (ends) of the bullet creating a much larger permanent wound cavity. I have done gelatin testing with this system and every police officer that saw it was needless to say very impressed. Again, if this were such a poor performer, why would the Secret Service adopt both the P90 and the FsN? Don't you think they would want a round that creates a large wound cavity and does not over penetrate? In fact the 5.7x28mm round is very close to be approved as a NATO round. If you have any question about the effectiveness of this round, I would encourage you to call Sgt. Sandy Wall at Houston PD SWAT and ask him about the shooting they had where the suspects heart was literally cut in two halves. I would also get in touch with the US Secret Service who has done extensive ballistic testing with this system. They are so impressed that they are replacing all 9mm sub machine guns with the P90. Do you think for a second that they would adopt a system that would not even work as well as what they had? In fact when they reliability tested the P90, it had only two malfunctions in 50,000 rounds out of 5 different guns. They stated in their report form the James J. Reilly Secret Service Training Center that the P90 is the most reliable weapon ever tested by that facility. Another interesting point that comes form this testing is that Dr. Fackler told the Secret Service before the tests that this system is ineffective. The Secret Service on the other hand had this to say... "While we respect Dr. Fackler's opinion, we have found this system to be a extremely effective system and we feel confident adopting it, we find that the 5.7x28mm system supports all claims made by FN concerning the effectiveness of this system"
I would be careful of anyone who claims to know this system after only having fired one round in testing. To make the statement that Dr. Roberts does undermines his credibility and that of the people in the ballistic community. Gelatin is not human tissue. Dr. Fackler has been wrong before and I believe he wrong here as well. The proof is in the adoption of this system by the US Federal Government as well as over 25 counties across the globe. In the assault on the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, which is where the P90/5.7 system first went operational, all of the hostage takers were eliminated through their level 3 body armor. This includes the leader who was
hit with one round through his body armor and expired. There are dozens of state and local departments here in the US who have adopted the system. I don't know of one department who said that the system was not effective ballistically.

All the experience and real life examples speaks louder than any single round fired into a mold or a
"professional" writing up ballistics on paper.

Fact: The expert told the Secret Service the round would not be effective.
Fact: The Secret Service did their own tests
Fact: The Secret Service, though they respected his opinion, said he was wrong.

I now have a solid opinion about this subject.

About a week ago, I had absolutely no credible opinion about this round and I knew very little about it. I had shot it in the past, but I didn’t do any research on it. The only thoughts I did have about it where based on what people were telling me here. Basically, all negative. I’ve taken the initiative and I’ve done the research into the allegations and rumors circling around the FN 5.7x28. So far, I’ve found that some of the opinions presented, even some of the professional ones, have been false, misguided or lack real world examples.

The only things left are your ballistics experts you continue to refer back to.

Example of single shot kills:

- Houston PD Swat - Single shot to the chest. tumbled into the heart and cut it in half.
- Doraville, GA. Swat - Single neck shot.
- Lima, Peru. Japanese Embassy. - Single shot to the chest, through body armor.

We’ll see more after the IOM hits the streets in mass.

I’ve already quoted three examples of single shots. Interesting note about the one person who managed to survive an attack from the P90 – The round went through a solid core door and was already starting to tumble. By the time it reached his bone, the round hit it flat and didn’t just break his arm, it powdered the bone within. Also, knocking two fingers off his gun hand.

Again, I would like to hear (from anyone) who has a CREDIBLE source of information that is able to
discredit this round legitimately. So far, no one has presented me with enough evidence to suggest this round should not be used to save someone’s life. In fact, I am retracting an earlier statement I made before – I would certainly use the Five-seveN system as a concealed weapon and a protective device for my own personal defense.

It’s safe, light, easy to shoot, powerful and it has been field-tested to have a proven performance record time and time again. I wish the departments and the US government would be willing to hand over their independent ballistics test results. I want to see the data that changed the Secret Service’s mind in the face of evidence presented by the experts. Note that the Secret Service WILL give their findings over to law enforcement departments who request the information. This information is confidential. But I’m sure it’s what other LE agencies are basing their judgments on. I’m asking my question again – Who has proof this round is a failure? And if no one can answer this question then I’d like to know – Why is there such a determined and organized effort out to discredit a perfectly good round of ammunition? It does everything FN said it would do. It is a disservice to present damning opinions without researching the actual field tests and people who use it. It is a disservice to FN and the people who represent that factory. But worse, it is a disservice to the 5.7x28, a round of ammunition that has been designed to save lives while causing minimal collateral damage.

But I implore you, do not take my word for what I’ve said. Do your own research. Get out of your labs and talk to the people who trust their lives to this system every day. Talk to the agencies who stepped up and did their own independent ballistics research. If I ask you to take my findings as the truth, then my findings would be no more valuable than an individual posting opinions in the Wound Ballistic Review.

[DmL5]

it's kinda of hard to believe that so many agencies around the world - including some reputable ones like the Secret Service - could have gotten it wrong.

Not to mention the French GIGN (who use them), are one of the most elite units in the world.

[Carlos]

Well, three accounts of single shot kills don't really make up "field-tested to have a proven performance record time and time again".

If this would be the case everybody should start using .22 lr ammo. :roll:

I shot 5.7x28 in ballistic gelatin, next to 4.6x30 and 9x19 Action3 and wasn't impressed with the first two calibers at all (with a better performance of the 5.7).

NATO isn't willing to agree on a standardized PDW-caliber having testet all those three calibers (and others) and this should show that the performances aren't too convincing for any of these calibers in a way that would obliterate any doubt.


The quoted text is nice rhetorics but no proof for the efficieny at all.



I for myself actually aren't too convinced of the new PDW-calibers (actually they can't fool physics) and wait for a proof of effectiveness or failure, too.


Up to now IMHO these haven't been produced.

[DmL5]

There have now been more shootings with the 5.7mm and from what I hear, they were very quick stops. There have been a couple people shot with it in Columbia, SC and somewhere else as well (I can't find the link at the moment). Here is a good article on the 5.7mm written by Sandy Wall of the US Houston PD SWAT:



Experiences with the FN P90


By Sandy Wall


The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. We received five P90s into our inventory in 1999 along with several thousand 5.7mm rounds of ammunition. After a short period of in-house testing and training, the P90s became operational within our entry team elements. The P90 has been utilized primarily at the point man positions where its CQB features are best utilized.
The first time I saw a P90, I couldn’t help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven.
We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds.
Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date.
I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to.
I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. Its CQB features are many, so I will just touch on the high points.
The weapon system, including both the P90 submachine gun and the FiveseveN pistol, is built around the SS190 5.7x28mm cartridge. One of the unique features about this system is that the cartridge can be fired from an assault rifle or a handgun. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The bullet contains no lead for environments that prohibit toxins.
The round is not cheap but as the weapon becomes more popular here in the United States, the cost should come down. Winchester will soon assemble the 5.7mm round from imported FN components and also plans to make a hollowpoint round.
The 5.7mm round has 379 ft-lbs of energy, compared to 1300 ft-lbs for the 5.56mm NATO. The recoil from the 5.7mm round is much less than even the 9mm.
The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round.
Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration.
In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds.
The P90 works from a simple blow-back bolt in a bullpup design. It is as easy to break down and clean as any gun you will ever shoot. I have been amazed at how little residue I find even after hundreds of rounds. I find less residue than in most weapons fired only 50 rounds. The simplicity of the action provides almost no chance of malfunctions. We literally tried to make one of ours malfunction by refusing to clean it. After several thousand rounds we couldn’t stand it anymore, broke down and cleaned it anyway. To this day, after thousands of rounds down range, I have yet to experience a malfunction with my P90.
The ergonomic design provides comfort and speed on target but does not compromise accuracy. It can hold a respectable group at 100 yards and the recoil is about one third of an M4, and even less than a 9mm MP5. Recoil management and time back on target is easy. It has a two-stage trigger in full-auto mode that allows the shooter to fire single or full-auto fire with just trigger manipulation— no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned. With the P90 the shooter has to commit a conscious effort to pull through the semi-auto stage to the full auto mode.
Every feature of the weapon can be operated equally from the right or left hand position. Spent casings eject straight down, which makes my partners on the firing line happy. No more doing the hot-brass-down-my-shirt dance. FN even has a slick little pouch that neatly attaches to the eject port. It will catch about a hundred casings before you have to dump it.
The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo. The magazine is translucent, which allows the shooter to know how many rounds remain with just a glance, even while you operate the weapon because the magazine sits right on top of the weapon just below the shooter’s cheek well.
The P90 comes with a two or three rail option for after market accessories and an optional built in laser. One of the drawbacks of the weapon is poor iron sights and I don’t really care for the optional factory optics. We popped them off and went with EOTech Holo sights. Normally, I’m not big on lasers, but in this case I use my built-in laser as a good back up to my holo sights should it malfunction.
When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I’m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

Terminal ballistics is not the only important point in a firearm. The 5.7mm guns have basically no kick and are very accurate, meaning headshots would be more likely. I don't see how you could fail to hit something vital with 20 or 50 rounds of accurate ammo with no recoil.

Also remember that 9mm is completely useless against body armor, and 5.56mm cannot be chambered in a pistol and has a lot of recoil and muzzle blast unless you're thinking of a heavier gun with a longer barrel; and large guns don't work as PDW's.


PS. The reason the 5.7mm has not been adopted as NATO standard is because Germany rejected the proposal in favor of HK's 4.6mm.

[Beardog]

I shot the p90 alot and i have this to say;

- accuracy is damn good ( even at 100 meters ).
- the wound channel; shot it in 10 % gelatine with winter clothing in front of it, from 20 meters, the ss190 bullet stopped between the 30 cm and 32 cm. Whe did not test it with body armor in front of the gelatine. At the Fn range i shot a standard us kevlar helmet and it went completly true it (distance 50 meters).
- Never had a malfunction.

[Spooky]

I'm not going to contest what you said as I think that there's legitimate arguments on both sides, however I will say that there are a plethora of technical studies done (all of which were cited) on the terminal ballistics of the 5.7x28 and none of them were particularly promising.

Admittedly, laboratory studies can often be wrong and the round should theoretically work. Once again, things which work in theory often fail in practice. I'd like to see a real FBI or DoD study done on the potential of the round. Also, Doc's a smart guy and I trust what he says for the most part.

[ogukuo72]

The test is in the tasting. We can only find out how good it really is when it is used extensively in actual combat. Even then, there might still be disputes - witness how the 9mm vs 0.45in argument is still going strong even though you would have thought it would have been settled one way or the other by now.

[Carlos]

Terminal ballistics is not the only important point in a firearm. The 5.7mm guns have basically no kick and are very accurate, meaning headshots would be more likely. I don't see how you could fail to hit something vital with 20 or 50 rounds of accurate ammo with no recoil.

Also remember that 9mm is completely useless against body armor, and 5.56mm cannot be chambered in a pistol and has a lot of recoil and muzzle blast unless you're thinking of a heavier gun with a longer barrel; and large guns don't work as PDW's.


PS. The reason the 5.7mm has not been adopted as NATO standard is because Germany rejected the proposal in favor of HK's 4.6mm.


Just some food for thoughts (as I'm not really advocating one system or the other):


Controllability is a valid point.

It may be achieved by designing larger-caliber handguns in a way where a low bore-axis or other tricks like compensators will enhance controllability to a similar level.

Accuracy should be on par with both calibers.

A trained shooter will be able to engage targets within each weapons reach, an untrained shooter will miss with both weapons within the same range...

Penetration performance is another issue.

You say that 9x19 is completely useless against body armor and I would like to abject that.

That may be true for the cases where you compare specially designed rounds for enhanced penetration with FMJ-bullet designs originating from 1902 and after that virtually unchanged (or even compare with (J)HP-Loads).

Why not compare the PDW-calibers with state of the art 9mm AP loads?
Then the gain of the smaller calibers geht's narrowed down a lot.

Just take for example the russian 9x19 7n21 round or the 9x19 PBP.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/gsh18-3.jpg
9x19 PBP

Those rounds compare to a 9x19 +P+ cartidge with a semi-jacketed bullet containing a penetrator core - there the CRISAT-target used to evaluate the PDWs also would have problems.
Perhaps the maximum penetration-distance would be a bit less, but actually nobody should need to shoot at armored targets more than a hundred meters away with a "bug out" Personal Defense Weapon.

If you now take the relatively low E(o) of the current PDW-Calibers (there the 5.7 is in favour over the 4.6) and compare them to what a 9x19 +P+-round will produce you will see that there is a huge delta-E (ballistics say that the transfer of energy into a target is what kills/wounds and that more energy aboard is a good start in the first place).

As said - controllability is an issue there (which IMHO could be sufficiently addressed)

Anyway, the small calibers are no new phenomenon, there have been lots of them around since a couple of a decades and none of them really succeeded in replacing bigger calibers.


Just to name a few:

.224 BOZ
5.56x30 (from Colt's MARS-Project)
9x30 (also from Colt MARS)
6.5x25 CBJ
5,7x22 GIAT

These are just the developments from the "western side", not taking into account the chinese and russian approaches.


and 5.56mm cannot be chambered in a pistol and has a lot of recoil and muzzle blast

The 5.56x30 of the MARS is nearly equal in size compared to the 5.7x29 and should also have been usable in Handguns. Using new and advanced propellants the blast-issue would have been cleared. Using a standard M855-bullet the system should have been more flexible and less proprietary as the FN caliber now.

But unfortunately somehow Colt didn't keep up with the concept...


In my opinion the far more important ideas behind the PDW concept are a collapsible stock, grips and small overall size and the use of an optical sight to enhance controllability and hit probability.



Anyway, ogukuo72 has a good point.

How can a 5.7 be good by any chance if there is still an argument if the .45 is superior to the 9x19... p-)

How can someone change to a lighter, smaller bullet when discussion is ongoing to return to bigger, heavier bullets in the assault rifle section because of performance flaws?

As you can see I'm not really pro or con any of the solutions as we in deed will have to see which concept will prevail. Anyhow I'm conservative enough to stay with existing concepts until somebody else shows clear proof that something else is far superior - until now that didn't happen.

The only thing I really feel questionable is the switchover of an army to a caliber that hasn't proved itselve before - this has been done before and wasn't that great a success.

[DmL5]

How can a 5.7 be good by any chance if there is still an argument if the .45 is superior to the 9x19...

I see it like this:

Best wounding ability: .45
Best accuracy: 5.7 (this comes from people that own the 5-7 IOM)
Best controllability: 5.7
Best capacity: 5.7
Best body armor penetration: 5.7
Best trajectory: 5.7 (not a big benefit, but still a benefit)
Best cartridge weight: 5.7 (this could be a big benefit if large amounts of ammo are being carried)
Best weapon weight: 5.7

So I think that all the other advantages of the 5.7 would probably outweigh the one advantage of the .45. To tell the truth, I would rather have 20 rounds of 5.7 (which is at least as powerful as a 9mm FMJ) than 7 rounds of .45 FMJ. Remember that in the army JHP's are not allowed. BTW - I take it we were talking about 5.7 in a pistol, not the P-90; the P-90 would have a huge advantage over a 9mm or .45 SMG because in a full-auto weapon with which you would fire 3-7 round bursts, terminal ballistics mean nothing.

Most of the other PDW rounds (or all of them) have disadvantages which the 5.7mm does not have:

.224BOZ - Has a problem with battering the weapon really bad (i'm not sure of the details but I know it happens).

HK 4.6x30 - Would be too hard to chamber in a pistol and still keep the grip size comfortable (also has less effective performance than 5.7mm).

GIAT 5.7x22 - Basically the FN 5.7x28mm with less powder charge, reducing velocity and therefore trajectory, AP ability, and wounding ability. The 5.7x22 would be easier to chamber and have less recoil than the FN 5.7mm but these don't really benefit it because the 5.7 already has little if any recoil and fits just fine in the Five-seveN pistol.

9x30 - Would suffer from limited capacity and ergonomics, but the wounding ability would be better than 5.7x28mm.

5.56x30 - Seems pretty impractical to me--basically a thinner, longer 5.7x28mm; the 5.7x28 is already thin and long, so making it longer and thinner wouldn't be logical.

6.5x25 - Sounds like it would work as well or better than the 5.7x28mm, but there aren't any good weapons chambered for it like the P-90 and Five-seveN.

I think the FN 5.7x28mm is the best PDW caliber at this time, and the P-90 and Five-seveN seem like great weapons as well. Just my thoughts.

[catchv22]

I believe when you're talking about cartridges, the 5.56x45mm means that the case is 45mm long, not the projectile itself. The 4.6x30mm is about the same size as the 5.7x28mm. I could be wrong though.

[D.E. Watters]

I believe when you're talking about cartridges, the 5.56x45mm means that the case is 45mm long, not the projectile itself. The 4.6x30mm is about the same size as the 5.7x28mm. I could be wrong though.

That is correct.


HK 4.6x30 - Would be too hard to chamber in a pistol and still keep the grip size comfortable (also has less effective performance than 5.7mm).

Actually, HK is developing a pistol for the 4.6x30mm, the UCP. It reportedly can use the same magazines as the MP7.


GIAT 5.7x22 - Basically the FN 5.7x28mm with less powder charge, reducing velocity and therefore trajectory, AP ability, and wounding ability. The 5.7x22 would be easier to chamber and have less recoil than the FN 5.7mm but these don't really benefit it because the 5.7 already has little if any recoil and fits just fine in the Five-seveN pistol.

Actually, the GIAT is based on the fatter 7.65x21mm Luger (.30 Luger) case. Depending upon its overall length, conceivably any 9x19mm/7.65x21mm platform could be rebarreled for it.


9x30 - Would suffer from limited capacity and ergonomics, but the wounding ability would be better than 5.7x28mm.

This is true. The 9x30mm was created by knecking down 10 iAi Magnum cases. The only pistol platforms would be items like the discontinued iAi Automag IV and LAR Grizzly.


5.56x30 - Seems pretty impractical to me--basically a thinner, longer 5.7x28mm; the 5.7x28 is already thin and long, so making it longer and thinner wouldn't be logical.

Actuallly, the 5.56x30mm and 5.7x28mm both use .224" projectiles. The 5.56x30mm case was based on cut down 5.56x45mm brass, which is wider than the 5.7x28mm FN case. The difference in powder capacity allowed the 5.56x30mm to launch a standard 55gr projectile at ~2,600fps from a 10" (254mm) barrel.


6.5x25 - Sounds like it would work as well or better than the 5.7x28mm, but there aren't any good weapons chambered for it like the P-90 and Five-seveN.

Saab-Bofors' 6.5x25mm PDW was designed to be rebarreled for 9x19mm, so perhaps any 9x19mm weapon might be rebarreled for the 6.5x25mm. However, don't let the 6.5mm designation fool you; that is the size of the sabot. The subprojectile is only 4mm in diameter.

[DmL5]

Anyone else know anything about the SS using it?

[Bob the Drunk]

The USSS uses the Sig in .357 Sig as the issue handgun. Most federal agencies do not encourage the use of a non issue handgun. While it is possible for an agent to carry something else, it is only with the written approval of the AIC. As for what Yiorgo said, the "boys in the white house" using the P90 and 5-7, he needs to check his facts before making blanket statements. To begin with, there are a number of different "boys" in the WH. There is the Uniformed Division of the USSS. These are the bulk of the WH security force. THey are issued and carry the Sig. Then there are the Special Agents of the PD. These guys also are issued and carry the Sig. They have MP-5's in FAG bags and some of the carry-alls have heavy weapons in them. Then you have the CAT guys. These guys use the P-90 as their SMG. They also have heavy weapons that they are issued and carry. I am not sure what kind of handgun they use, so I will not speculate. Federal Agents are not issued "back-up" guns.

As for making headshots, go back to counter strike. If you have ever been trained to fire a weapon, you don't aim for headshots from 50 yards. You aim to put your man down. that means center mass. Now watch everyone, someone is going to come back and say that no, in fact they are trained to make headshots from a moving vehicle and 100 yards and they do it everytime. I bet they will also tell you that they double team 19 year old twins every friday. They are full of **** on both (although the second would be a whole lot more fun!)

One more question, why do "VIP Protecting prefers 9mm"? Also, what the hell does that mean anyway? Have you ever worked a detail?

[muede]

As the 5.56x30mm got mentioned this is bit of topic but i would love to get some pics of COLT Mini Assault Rifle System if possible. :)

[1Cie GevGn]

The USSS uses the Sig in .357 Sig as the issue handgun. Most federal agencies do not encourage the use of a non issue handgun. While it is possible for an agent to carry something else, it is only with the written approval of the AIC. As for what Yiorgo said, the "boys in the white house" using the P90 and 5-7, he needs to check his facts before making blanket statements. To begin with, there are a number of different "boys" in the WH. There is the Uniformed Division of the USSS. These are the bulk of the WH security force. THey are issued and carry the Sig. Then there are the Special Agents of the PD. These guys also are issued and carry the Sig. They have MP-5's in FAG bags and some of the carry-alls have heavy weapons in them. Then you have the CAT guys. These guys use the P-90 as their SMG. They also have heavy weapons that they are issued and carry. I am not sure what kind of handgun they use, so I will not speculate. Federal Agents are not issued "back-up" guns.

As for making headshots, go back to counter strike. If you have ever been trained to fire a weapon, you don't aim for headshots from 50 yards. You aim to put your man down. that means center mass. Now watch everyone, someone is going to come back and say that no, in fact they are trained to make headshots from a moving vehicle and 100 yards and they do it everytime. I bet they will also tell you that they double team 19 year old twins every friday. They are full of **** on both (although the second would be a whole lot more fun!)

One more question, why do "VIP Protecting prefers 9mm"? Also, what the hell does that mean anyway? Have you ever worked a detail?

Damn, I wouldn't like to meet you when you're sober :(

:hug: woot

[Carlos]

As the 5.56x30mm got mentioned this is bit of topic but i would love to get some pics of COLT Mini Assault Rifle System if possible. :)

Well, how about these?

(sorry about crappy quality, no scanner, just camera)

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS.jpg
Colt MARS schematic side view

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS_Prototyp.jpg
Prototype weapon firing

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS_side.jpg
Colt MARS side view

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS_carry.jpg
Carry Option

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS_Team.jpg
Developer Team

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS_Munition_2.jpg
l.t.r: 5.56x45, 5.56x30, 9x30

http://carlos.excaliba.de/Bilder/Colt_MARS_Munition.jpg
l.t.r.: 5.56x45, 5,45x39, 5,56x30 (4 different loads including SLAP), 5,7x28, 9x19


Note the interesting 9x30 cartridge (compare to 9x39 loads from russia) and the comparison between the 5.56x30 and the 5.7x28... ;)

[wiking]

As were on the subject of the Secret service and their weapons, i figured i could ask a question that's been bugging me for over 3 sodding years.

Summer of 2001 i was on the white house tour, and when leaving i saw an ared guard with a MP5 on the lawn, the thing that bothered me was that the MP5 was half in this sodding bag, and for the life of me i could not understand what the HELL was the point of that bloody bag. (i thought i noticed a comment on something like this a bit up, so maybee someone here can answer me on this)

[Bob the Drunk]

The bag you are referring to is called a FAG (Fast Assault Gun) Bag. They are designed to carry SMG's (and others) it a discrete readily accessible way. The idea behind it is not to scare people away. Americans don't like the idea of people carrying machine guns out in the open (i of course love it). If you notice any of the USSS special agents (the ones in suits that are on the PD) here in the US, they don't brandish their weapons unless something is happening. Despite what they show you in the movies, it is really hard and quite uncomfortable to carry and conceal a SMG under a suit coat.

BTW, i am a treat sober. Sorry about being abrupt, I just get frustrated by people who make comments and have nothing to back them up with. It is like in the photo section, where everyone is delta. All the people who claim to know about working protection (ex. VIP protectors prefer 9mm) but have never stood a post kind of get on my nerves.

[wiking]

That was what i figured they were for those bags, still it did look kinda weird. If a situation arises and he has to get of a shot fast then that bag can be in the way. Hell even British coppers at heathrow carry MP5's out in the open, and gun culture there is way different (guess it's one of those things that make yanks yanks).

(FAG bag rofl who the hell makes up names like that :D well you won't forget it that's for sure. )

[Cardinal]

If we would start carrying around our P90s in the open in Brussels, the press would be all over us. We have them handy, but not in the open. Sometimes we make exceptions though.

[Laconian]

Bob was right on, with one small exception. There are Federal agencies that authorize back-up guns. I know of at least one agency that issues both a primary and second gun to its agents...

[wiking]

even coppers here in norway carry their MP5's openly when their guarding embassys orhigh risk trials and such. Guess it's a bir different from country to country.

And the Norwegian royal guard carry their AG3's openly, but i guess thats a bit different again.

Probably depends what the locals think of it, but i've never really understood what americans in perticular can have against them carrying their weapons openly.

[yiorgo]

actually DRUNK if you go back and read my posts you will see that I also stated 357sig is standard issue as well and as far as 380 back up that is ALSO correct....as for head shots i dont shoot to kill ANYTHING i was commenting on the accuracy and trajectory of the round it is extremely accurate with no kick....i have never made head shots on a target out to 50yrds before with ANY handgun have you?....but i guess if your ass wasnt drinking and maybe read a little more you would know better

[Carlos]

Despite what they show you in the movies, it is really hard and quite uncomfortable to carry and conceal a SMG under a suit coat.

I sometimes (have to) do that and using a good holster it's not that bad...

[Bob the Drunk]

Carlos,
Not that bad is the key. Can it be done, of course and people do it. I was just making the point that the bags can help. It is also nice to be able to quickly leave the the smg say in the vehicle if your situation changes.

Yiorgo,

I wasn't really trying offend you (which it would seem i have). Perhaps you could clarify a couple of your points though. when you say boys in the WH, who were you referring to?

I am not sure about the USSS issuing backup guns, but i am going to find out on that one. I can tell you that adding a backup and a couple of mags will add more than a little weight to an already heavy belt (if you figure your primary, a couple of mags, a flashlight, asp, radio, cuffs (not always but sometimes).


oh and who ever thinks the gun is crap needs to actually fire one....it my LOOK like poo but handles awesome.....has hardly any kick...and i was making head shots all day at 50yrds EXTREMELY accurate

i have never made head shots on a target out to 50yrds before with ANY handgun have you?

I was talking about training there marvin. Maybe you should read a little more closely and not be so quick to jump on people. Also, don't make fun of me for my hobbies, I don't make fun of you for being an asshole.

Laconian, you are correct, and i mispoke. I meant to put a "most" in there, but after 6 or 7 beers, my typing and my english slip a little. I know that the Bureau and DS are not issued backup guns. I know that some agents can be authorized to carry a second weapon. That being said, i know of no Federal agency that allows you to carry a second weapon without approval from the AIC. If you know of one, please post it, i would be interested in finding out more about it.

[Laconian]

Not to hijack a thread, but the FBI authorizes their SAs to carry a back-up from their authorized list. I DO NOT know their protocol for getting authorization, but I worked with a number of them that carried Glock 23s + 27s. US Postal Inspectors are also authorized a back-up. It must meet certain criteria (.38 Special or 9mm only, if a semi-auto it must be DAO, or a Glock, and on the authorized list), The Inspector notifies his chain of command of wanting to carry one and qualls with it and then can carry it. ATF agents are issued both a SIG .40 (either a P226 or P229) and a S&W 640-1 (or other J-frame variant depending on stock). There are also some SIG P239s (9mm) issued as back-up guns. Those weapons are all qualled with quarterly.
Again, no agency I know of lets you carry a weapon that the administration doesn't show you qualled with or is not authorized by the agency for agent use.

[yiorgo]

actually your wrong once again ...when i stated 50yrd head shots i meant targets at a range and AGAIN stating the accuracy of this fine weapon.........i dont go out looking to make HEAD shots on anyone or anything ....if you could read you would understand what i mean and stop being suck a pompas ass know it all......as far a back up weapons i dont need to have you research anything for me i KNOW what they are carrying as my brother in law is a SS agent i dont want to get into it with you....but since i have a family member who is actually a part of the SS and have gone shooting with him numerous times i tend to listen more to him then some trolling smart ass piece of **** who has nothing better to do than get his rocks off thinking he is the man.....actually Rambo your not so do me a favor go polish one of your machine guns and have a TALL glass of some shut the **** up.

[TriggerPuller]

USSS only resposibility is not soley the CP of the President. I know what the CP team carries and what other individuals of other divisions of the USSS carry but who really cares and whats the point...just to prove you are right to make some others on a website eat crow...grow up!!

TP

[Bob the Drunk]

Laconian, i think you and i are saying the same thing. Thanks for the info.

[Carlos]

Carlos,
Not that bad is the key. Can it be done, of course and people do it. I was just making the point that the bags can help. It is also nice to be able to quickly leave the the smg say in the vehicle if your situation changes.


As I have to use vehicles frequently the holster I use actually has to allow that too and does it very well.

But there's no point arguing that for the embassy-work the bags probably work better - these guys will know.

I just wanted to say that you can conceal a MP5 under a coat quite comfortably.

[Haiw]

I 'heard' the USSS has turned pacifist and has decided to replace all their firearms with high-pitched whistles...

[BadKarma26]

Carlos,
Not that bad is the key. Can it be done, of course and people do it. I was just making the point that the bags can help. It is also nice to be able to quickly leave the the smg say in the vehicle if your situation changes.


As I have to use vehicles frequently the holster I use actually has to allow that too and does it very well.

But there's no point arguing that for the embassy-work the bags probably work better - these guys will know.

I just wanted to say that you can conceal a MP5 under a coat quite comfortably.

Maybe with the mag out.

[wiking]

Carlos,
Not that bad is the key. Can it be done, of course and people do it. I was just making the point that the bags can help. It is also nice to be able to quickly leave the the smg say in the vehicle if your situation changes.


As I have to use vehicles frequently the holster I use actually has to allow that too and does it very well.

But there's no point arguing that for the embassy-work the bags probably work better - these guys will know.

I just wanted to say that you can conceal a MP5 under a coat quite comfortably.


Maybe with the mag out.

You can get these short 15-20 round mags for the MP5k, they'd probably work with the full lenght MP5 to. Anyone seen the suitcase for the MP5k by the way, now that thing must be a law enforcement nightmare.

[Carlos]

You can get these short 15-20 round mags for the MP5k, they'd probably work with the full lenght MP5 to.

The factory 15-rounders do work and I use one... ;)

[LazerLordz]

I know, but you have to admit it is scary when you are talking about the guys who are responsible for the life of the president and you wright SS.

Look at the image the world has of Bush and look at the Secret Service as his SS..Gee.Get it? :bash:

[wiking]

I know, but you have to admit it is scary when you are talking about the guys who are responsible for the life of the president and you wright SS.

Look at the image the world has of Bush and look at the Secret Service as his SS..Gee.Get it? :bash:

With the power the US patriot act grants to federal law enforcement, SS isn't exactly wrong. Could rename FBI to the US Gestapo or just the good old KGB.