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nougabol
07-21-2011, 10:31 AM
interesting, there M56 gear looks brand new,

Say does anybody know if that was standard stuff to roll up your poncho like that ? at 2.44, or wasn't the buttpack not around by then ?

Never seen that done before

Seek
07-21-2011, 10:42 AM
AFAIK it was SOP according to a FM.

nougabol
07-21-2011, 11:05 AM
Sweet, thanks...

Those M113's look they just came out of the box
great footage

lt tahoe
07-21-2011, 11:45 AM
The nature of the Berlin Brigade was they were a combat unit--and one of the first that would have been rolled over--but they were very visible and so they were like the old Guards units in Moscow. Brand-new equipment, shiny uniforms and gear, but they were not just parade troops.

ETA--Just noticed the guy with the bipod on his M14 at about 0:35. I'm sure he appreciated the extra weight on his extra-heavy rifle :)

tluassa
07-21-2011, 11:54 AM
Wow nice thank you for posting. And bringing up this topic. I always found this "city camouflage" on tanks and vehicles in interesting, can somebody tell if only the British used it ?

For example on the British Cieftains:
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2245/berlinbrigadechieftainsdotjpg

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/496/berlinbrigadelandroverdotjpg

haze99
07-21-2011, 12:36 PM
tluassa, only the Brit's used that camoflague with the Berlin Infantry Brigade.

Marsch
07-21-2011, 01:53 PM
I could swear I was once riding in an M113 named "Tempelhof" in the late 80's. Could it be the same? Did the units took the equipment with them on rotation or did they left it here for the upcoming ones?

Magister
07-21-2011, 03:42 PM
The nature of the Berlin Brigade was they were a combat unit--and one of the first that would have been rolled over--but they were very visible and so they were like the old Guards units in Moscow. Brand-new equipment, shiny uniforms and gear, but they were not just parade troops.

ETA--Just noticed the guy with the bipod on his M14 at about 0:35. I'm sure he appreciated the extra weight on his extra-heavy rifle :)

Quite a number of them seem to have a bipod (3.45). Must have something to do with the visibility factor, AFAIK bipods on the M14 were rather uncommon in the Vietnam war for instance.

Hellfish
07-21-2011, 06:12 PM
Wow. That's gotta be '62-'65. Good stuff.

Semperfidjm
07-21-2011, 08:30 PM
My brother was with the Brigade when the wall came down. Loved looking at his photos. Got to visit for a week it was very impresive

G-AWZT
07-21-2011, 08:33 PM
Any idea how long the American, French, British contingents expected to last had the crap hit the fan?

T-5 Killer
07-21-2011, 09:20 PM
I could swear I was once riding in an M113 named "Tempelhof" in the late 80's. Could it be the same? Did the units took the equipment with them on rotation or did they left it here for the upcoming ones?
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m282/T5killer/ARMY/SSGLucasafterTroopFightdotjpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m282/T5killer/ARMY/m60_dualdotjpg

There was this camo I just don't recall what it was called.

Hellfish
07-21-2011, 09:52 PM
The 2nd ACR tried pixelated camo in the late 70s or early 80s, IIRC.

flatdog
07-21-2011, 10:09 PM
This was called " Dualtex".

gunnergoz
07-22-2011, 06:09 PM
Just noticed that there were some old M59 APC's in there mixed in with the shots of M113's which replaced them; also some M1919A4 .30 cal's still in use. Brings back memories. Still remember the hoopla when the M151 was introduced about then...Detroit monobody wonder that turned into a big disappointment when it started killing GI's in rollover accidents.

I was an army brat in high school back in those days. Periodically we would have evacuation alerts for the dependents so we would know how to get out of Europe if the balloon ever went up. Not that there would be any time for that. But it was nice to pretend someone would survive if it did happen. The confrontations in Berlin with T-55's and M-48's staring down at each other scared the crap out of everybody. You can see in the video that noncoms and officers were everywhere to keep the draftees from doing anything stupid.

Ah, the old Regular/Draftee army...you have to ask yourself how many of those regular NCO's and JO's survived the next few years in RVN. My dad did, only to die later from Agent Orange induced cancer.

The good old days but in a weird, scary way.

Mordoror
07-22-2011, 06:23 PM
Any idea how long the American, French, British contingents expected to last had the crap hit the fan? Basically ? It was an all or nothing situation
In case of frontal soviet and WP attack they were here to die (rather quickly) but they were sovereignty signals
After all 2 infantry regiment and one engineer company for the French, 3 infantry bataillions, 1 armor and one arty bataillion for the US and 3 infantry bataillion and one armor squadron for UK is not what can be called an overwhelming force. There were not even full brigades and so altogether formed slightly less than a NATO interarm division.

Anyway some soviet contingency plans seem to have Berlin left untouched (just the troops surrounded to starvation and surrender)

Chris1012
07-22-2011, 07:02 PM
Basically ? It was an all or nothing situation
In case of frontal soviet and WP attack they were here to die (rather quickly) but they were sovereignty signals
After all 2 infantry regiment and one engineer company for the French, 3 infantry bataillions, 1 armor and one arty bataillion for the US and 3 infantry bataillion and one armor squadron for UK is not what can be called an overwhelming force. There were not even full brigades and so altogether formed slightly less than a NATO interarm division.

Anyway some soviet contingency plans seem to have Berlin left untouched (just the troops surrounded to starvation and surrender)
friend of the family was told that 7 days (presumably of combat rather than siege) was the goal and what was planned for - 48 hours was felt to be optimistic and 24 was thought doable.
In hindsight he thought most of them would be dead within the first hour...

Mordoror
07-22-2011, 07:10 PM
friend of the family was told that 7 days (presumably of combat rather than siege) was the goal and what was planned for

Now you mention it this is what was planned for the French too
But as you said a 12 to 24 hours (maybe 48 hours if they could have gone Stalingrad style) would be more realistic

G-AWZT
07-22-2011, 07:15 PM
How many NATO tanks for the Berlin contingents?

Mordoror
07-22-2011, 07:24 PM
How many NATO tanks for the Berlin contingents?

hem for the French at that time we had one tank company in each Infantry regiment (3 or four platoon of 3 or 4 tanks depending of the period as organisation changed)
So between 24 to 28 tanks for 2 IF. Rgts

A US tank batallion was supposed to be 57 or 58 tanks during the Vietnam era (but i don't know if it is regular or wartime battle order)

As for the UK a squadron had 14 tanks. Don't know if UK IF. Rgts incorporated Tanks at that time though.

So all in all that makes around 100 tanks for the 3 nations.

G-AWZT
07-22-2011, 07:42 PM
hem for the French at that time we had one tank company in each Infantry regiment (3 or four platoon of 3 or 4 tanks depending of the period as organisation changed)
So between 24 to 28 tanks for 2 IF. Rgts

A US tank batallion was supposed to be 57 or 58 tanks during the Vietnam era (but i don't know if it is regular or wartime battle order)

As for the UK a squadron had 14 tanks. Don't know if UK IF. Rgts incorporated Tanks at that time though.

So all in all that makes around 100 tanks for the 3 nations.


I assume the troops would've had access to quite a high number of anti-tank/armor weapons to fend off Soviet/NVA vehicles.

Bloo
07-22-2011, 07:44 PM
hem for the French at that time we had one tank company in each Infantry regiment (3 or four platoon of 3 or 4 tanks depending of the period as organisation changed)
So between 24 to 28 tanks for 2 IF. Rgts

A US tank batallion was supposed to be 57 or 58 tanks during the Vietnam era (but i don't know if it is regular or wartime battle order)

As for the UK a squadron had 14 tanks. Don't know if UK IF. Rgts incorporated Tanks at that time though.

So all in all that makes around 100 tanks for the 3 nations.

Against the ~3,300 tanks of the Soviet Western Group Forces and another ~1,600 of the East German Army. They were brave chaps, for sure.

Mordoror
07-22-2011, 08:00 PM
I assume the troops would've had access to quite a high number of anti-tank/armor weapons to fend off Soviet/NVA vehicles.In the 60s ???
Good luck with that


French SS10 and ENTAC, UK Vickers Vigilant and Swingfire, French issued SS10 and ENTAC for the US Army may have been available
but they were all wired and medium range systems (useless in urban environment)

Concerning shoulder launched systems you had the french LRAC 73 mm, the M20 super bazooka, the M67 RCL, the M72
Not sure if any of them would have been very efficient on T62/T64 tanks (sure that the M72 would perform poorly as shown against more lightly armored PT76 during the battle of Lang Vei)
They may have been of some use against T54/T55 and BMP/BTR though

The troops (at least the French brigade from what i know but i suppose it is the same for the other units) were supposed to plant landmines on the more obvious penetration paths. Sure they would have planted mines during an armored attack:roll:

I forgot to add the rifle grenades. Useless against tanks, efficient (or supposely efficient) against APC/IVF

Bro Jangles
07-22-2011, 08:09 PM
The troops in the video with the M1s and M1919s, were they the opfor for that urban operation?

bikewrench
07-22-2011, 08:09 PM
I've actually wargamed this a couple times. The West Germans weren't allowed to have any Heer troops there so the Berlin Polizei were heavily armed up with AT weapons, MG's and Armored Cars etc. It was also assumed that during the Soviet buildup NATO would sneak in a few infantry battalions extra. Still as noted there could have eaily been a couple Corps directed to Berlin.
It usually held for several days
Berlin is a huge area with several large suburbs to hide in.
The main reason for capture would be for it's propaganda victory, but assuming an attack on West Germany would have been simultaneous most of the rest of the country would have fallen already.80

G-AWZT
07-22-2011, 11:06 PM
I've actually wargamed this a couple times. The West Germans weren't allowed to have any Heer troops there so the Berlin Polizei were heavily armed up with AT weapons, MG's and Armored Cars etc. It was also assumed that during the Soviet buildup NATO would sneak in a few infantry battalions extra. Still as noted there could have eaily been a couple Corps directed to Berlin.
It usually held for several days
Berlin is a huge area with several large suburbs to hide in.
The main reason for capture would be for it's propaganda victory, but assuming an attack on West Germany would have been simultaneous most of the rest of the country would have fallen already.80


Out of curiosity do you know if there were any NATO/Police helicopters present for air support either in planning or the "game". Silly question considering the NVA/Soviets would have the airspace flooded with lead.





In the 60s ???
Good luck with that


French SS10 and ENTAC, UK Vickers Vigilant and Swingfire, French issued SS10 and ENTAC for the US Army may have been available
but they were all wired and medium range systems (useless in urban environment)

Concerning shoulder launched systems you had the french LRAC 73 mm, the M20 super bazooka, the M67 RCL, the M72
Not sure if any of them would have been very efficient on T62/T64 tanks (sure that the M72 would perform poorly as shown against more lightly armored PT76 during the battle of Lang Vei)
They may have been of some use against T54/T55 and BMP/BTR though

The troops (at least the French brigade from what i know but i suppose it is the same for the other units) were supposed to plant landmines on the more obvious penetration paths. Sure they would have planted mines during an armored attack:roll:

I forgot to add the rifle grenades. Useless against tanks, efficient (or supposely efficient) against APC/IVF

Interesting facts. How would this change by the early mid '80s?

Marsch
07-23-2011, 12:16 AM
Out of curiosity do you know if there were any NATO/Police helicopters present for air support either in planning or the "game". Silly question considering the NVA/Soviets would have the airspace flooded with lead.
As far as I know they only had Hueys here. IIRC there was some kind of agreement that the western allies weren't allowed to have armed aircraft in West-Berlin. The police didn't had any helicopters because no West-German pilot (includes Berlin citizens) were allowed to fly to, from and over Berlin. Therefore our only rescue helicopter was piloted by retired US Army aviators.


Interesting facts. How would this change by the early mid '80s?I'm not sure but I think there were TOWs and I also saw a performance at the Airport Tempelhof with US soldiers (don't remember if Army or Air Force) and a system like the MILAN (tripod with optics and the tube). Don't know if it actually was a MILAN or if the US had a comparable system?

Bro Jangles
07-23-2011, 01:06 AM
It was probably the Dragon ATGM.

cwjian
07-23-2011, 01:15 AM
Interesting facts. How would this change by the early mid '80s?

The availability of SACLOS-guided missiles such as the M47 Dragon and MILAN with their much shorter minimum ranges made urban combat using ATGMs a more viable option.

Also, better handheld anti-tank rocket launchers like the AT4, APILAS and the LAW 80 became available too (although a bit later).

jetsetter
07-23-2011, 01:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gzq_yglHxY

Uploaded by Rulleskodder1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/Rulleskodder1) on May 29, 2011
I think it was the first visit of the Russian soldiers and officers in the army of the US Brigade. We think this visit is the offical end of the Cold War between our countries. We are very gratefull to the american soldiers and officers for this wonderfull day spend in your barracks. Thank you very much!

khalifah
07-23-2011, 02:14 AM
Wow, nice one Jetsetter. Im thinking that one Soldat really enjoyed the M16 and the 1911.

thanks for posting :)

James
07-23-2011, 03:25 AM
The troops in the video with the M1s and M1919s, were they the opfor for that urban operation?

I think the clips in this video were from a decade or more of service, maybe - I saw some guys with M1s who were wearing older gear. That is to say if all the clips are actually of the Berlin Brigade; there was briefly a minigun armed Huey that seems to be flying over rice paddies...

Seek
07-23-2011, 06:05 AM
Great video jetsetter! Soviets and Americans communicating in German. :D

Mordoror
07-23-2011, 08:34 AM
Interesting facts. How would this change by the early mid '80s?
Mid-80 a lot of NATO ground technologies and weapon plateforms were greatly improved
M1 MBT were available (instead of M60 that were poor matches against T72/T80 between 70s and 80s)
M113s (not matches vs BMP1/2) were phased out for Bradleys
Concerning the antitank weapons somebody answered previously : better ATGM were available : TOW and Dragoons for the US, Milan for UK and France. However only the Dragoon would have been of use in urban battle (max range 1000 m)
TOW and Milan were rather medium range missiles

There was also a great improvment of rocket launchers : French had the LRAC 89 mm (improvment of the 73 mm and sufficient to be a threat for T62/64) and introduced the RAC 112 (for 112 mm) a.k.a APILAS single launch tube to be sure to have an effect on T72 and T80
UK introduced the Carl Gustav in the 70s
Only the US were poorly equiped in shoulder launched rockets until the introduction of the AT4 (late 80s). Until then they kept the M72 (and M202) that was poor against anything else that lightly armored vehicles. But they had the Dragoon that was, as i said above, far enough for a close range Anti tank action.

G-AWZT
07-23-2011, 08:08 PM
Was Berlin duty on a volunteer basis?

haze99
07-23-2011, 08:55 PM
Ah, what a find jetsetter! (Talk about a trip down memory lane!) Just some notes on the video. At the begining and end of the video is/was the main gate of McNair. (it was removed in 2004) Across the street was the 5th and 6th Battalion/502nd Infantry Regiment Motor Pool. The EOD detachment on the far end. (this whole area was demolished and a garden center built there in the late 1990's.) Another motor pool was located at the rear of McNair Barracks which housed the 4th Battalion/502nd Infantry Regiment. (which by the date of this video, had just deactivated as part of the Drawdown.) Nice footage of the barracks halls, day room, Charge-of-Quarters (CQ) Desk and arms rooms. (If my memory serves me correct, this was one of the company barracks in the 6th Bn section of McNair?) Great close-up on the Class-A uniforms with full-color patches and nice to see the soldiers wearing the Army of Occupation Medal (rare to see now, so rare AAFES Mililtary Clothing Stores don't even carry it!) Interesting to see a USMC Liasion Officer as the Interpreter, too! Not sure if he would have been assigned to the Embassy or Teufelsberg?

Marsch
07-23-2011, 10:31 PM
It was probably the Dragon ATGM.
No, it wasn't a Dragon. The system they had was on a smaller tripod with an encased housing for the optics and the tube with the missile was detachable. The "gunner" was laying on the ground behind the system. I'm quite sure it was a MILAN and no, it weren't French soldiers for sure.

/edit: Btw, the Russian officer with the M16+M203 is saying something in German like "Good. Our Soviet rifle is the same" after the SPC shows him that it's heavy.

haze99
07-24-2011, 06:06 PM
Marsch, I believe you saw a M220-series, TOW missile system. And if that was not it, then you saw an M-67, 90mm Recoiless Rifle. The Berlin Brigade and 75th Ranger Regiment were the only two active-duty Army units to use this weapon after Vietnam. (Or atleast, the last two units in the 1980's to still have it in their inventory.)

Marsch
07-24-2011, 07:09 PM
A TOW is much bigger as the system they had and as far as I know isn't really portable by two men. It also wasn't something shoulder fired. To get a little more into detail. It was at a day of the open door at Tempelhof. A demonstration of an AT(GM) system was anounced and then the two soldiers were running down the forefield, assembled the weapon (put the tube on it), took aim and fired a "simulated" shot, threw away one tube, changed position and then repeated the procedure a second time. IIRC they had the system on display somewhere and I even looked through the optics but don't remember how it looked. What I remember is that the tubes had these detachable covers on both ends which had to be taken off before firing (like the "cut away" tube on this photo (http://mitglied.multimania.de/sabotup/wts/Milandotjpg)).

Isn't it possible they got a couple of systems from the French for demonstration purposes or even got some because the system was more suitable for the Brigade then other ATGMs of that time?

haze99
07-27-2011, 10:09 PM
Well marsch, it is possible? For a limited time period. Nothing like that when I was there. Oh Mordoror, speaking of M-1 Abrams in Berlin, Foxtrot Company, 40th Armor Regiment had been deactivated in the summer of 1992, so Turner Barracks was empty. In addition, Echo Battery, 320th Field Artillery Regiment only had M-102 (105mm) howitzers, as well.