300,000 babies stolen from their parents sold for adoption in Spain

[Lov3ll]

300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

http://i.imgur.com/R0u9g.jpg
(http://i.imgur.com/R0u9g.jpg)
Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him


Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.
The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.
Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.
Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.
But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.
In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b016d7hz

:-(

[seraosha]

Thread title is BS. It wasn't The Catholic Church. It was Franco's government and collusion with Spanish clergy, and was never sanctioned by the Church.

Tighten up your shot group if you are going to post controversial threads.

[SBL]

Apart from lying to the mothers, it doesn't strike me as such a horrible program.

[shermbodius]

This thread won't last.

[HollywoodMarine]

300,000 babies stolen from their parents sold for adoption by the Catholic church
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/booms2go/Smells_like_BS.jpg

[Stormz_STA]

This is what happens when religious institutions live in symbiosis with state institutions.

[Mu-Meson]

Apart from lying to the mothers, it doesn't strike me as such a horrible program.

X2.

But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.
In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.

It is beyond a doubt better for children to be raised in an intact family with financial security, rather than by young, unmarried, single moms. So the ends may have been good (or partially good) but, as often is the case, the means were pretty evil.

[Xaito]

Apart from lying to the mothers, it doesn't strike me as such a horrible program.

What do you mean apart from?
Selling children like pets?
Your post sounds like it's some minor inconvenience for a woman to get get her newborn stolen so it can be sold.
Pretty tactless.

[Telmar]

X2.


It is beyond a doubt better for children to be raised in an intact family with financial security, rather than by young, unmarried, single moms. So the ends may have been good (or partially good) but, as often is the case, the means were pretty evil.


Who were these people to play god and take away children from their rightful mothers and give them to others?

How about helping those moms in difficulty instead of taking their baby away?

Those who did this are douchebags.

[Universals]

Apart from lying to the mothers, it doesn't strike me as such a horrible program.

Don't think you'll be happy if your children were given to Angelina Jolie cos they 'll have a "better life".

[shermbodius]

This is what happens when religious institutions live in symbiosis with state institutions.
So far the only logical statement yet.

[b0sco]

Against Christians = DailyMail is a trusty news source

Against Muslims = u wot m8 dailyfail everything blown outta proportion

Ok.

[wotsnext]

"Quality of life" is a tad tricky to quantify is it not? but then, there is always someone who thinks they know whats best for others.

[Piirka]

What tarts, having non-marital *** and all. Of course it is better for the we-are-so-fvcking-holier-than-thou -people to do as they will for their children and make a buck for the papacy in the process. What, win-win all around? No, I think it's evil.

[Lov3ll]

Against Christians = DailyMail is a trusty news source

Against Muslims = u wot m8 dailyfail everything blown outta proportion

Ok.

This isn't from the dailymail it's from the BBC, I only added the dailymail link as it's longer and goes into more detail as to what's in the BBC documentary, and to people saying there's nothing wrong with this because they were poor what the **** is wrong with you?

[Corrupt]

Not sure if I'm more horrified by the nature/extent of this vile policy, or posts that borderline support it...

[armored_diplomacy]

This is what happens when religious institutions live in symbiosis with state institutions.

X 2 on that.

[LaoSexMachine]

Apart from lying to the mothers, it doesn't strike me as such a horrible program.

Seems like a good idea when it's not your kid.

[LineDoggie]

What I question is the sensationalist title. The BBC link Which we can't see in the USA also links to this Guardian article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/27/spanish-babies-stolen-clinic/print

The Guardian Article says 261 babies, not 300,000. Thats quite a difference of 299,739 babies over 50 years. Was some new evidence found that jacks up the numbers so high? None of the stories links to a report, so we're supposed to just believe the Daily Mail at face value? From the same UK posters who on every other occassion say the DM cannot be trusted, yet suddenly on this is infallible? Makes me wonder if the motive isnt bias towards Catholicism.

What about the CoE and Australian Gov Policy of taking mixed race Aborigne Children between 1869-1969? Pretty sure similar actions occured in the USA as well in the last century. From 1945 to 1970 4 million US children were put up for adoption, and our policy towards American Indian children, re carlisle and then jobbing them out as domestic help and farm workers.

As to the Childrens fate maybe a Spanish poster can answer this rationally.

What was the Social Services available post war in Spain for Children and Unwed Mothers?

What would be the typical fate of a child of an unwed mother in Spain of the time?

[SBL]

What do you mean apart from?
Selling children like pets?
Your post sounds like it's some minor inconvenience for a woman to get get her newborn stolen so it can be sold.
Pretty tactless.
There aren't any easy answer when it comes to this sort of thing, but what I mean is that it's far better,in my opinion, for the child to have the a chance at the advantages of growing up in a stable, secure, two-parent household; rather than as a stigmatized, and generally neglected bastard- as he inevitably would have been. Lying to the mother doesn't sit with me ethically, but in some way I can see how it would be a kind of mercy. We don't live in Disney world.


Don't think you'll be happy if your children were given to Angelina Jolie cos they 'll have a "better life".
Well, that all depends, doesn't it? I suppose if I were to sire some poor bastard, I could go one of two ways. Either I could man-up and take responsibility as the child's father, marry the mother, as would be expected of any good Papist, and do my best to raise him. In which case it would be a non-issue.
Conversely, I could skip town- perhaps fake my own death and join a travelling cult of nudists- in which case, I don't think I'd care who had my baby.

But for the sake of argument, if Angela Jolie raising my child was somehow in his or her best interests, I like to think I'd do the right thing as a parent and act on the kid's behalf.

[Stormz_STA]

a stable, secure

And how can anyone be sure those families that took the children were really stable and secure?

[LineDoggie]

And how can anyone be sure those families that took the children were really stable and secure?So a Family would be less stable, less secure than an Unwed Mother in the 1940's 50's, 60's? There was an enormous stigma socially in those days and Spain wasnt exactly flush with cash after 1945. I'd still like a Spanish poster to wade in with some info on Social Services available from 45-75 for unwed mothers and children who would be considered Bastards by society. It couldn't have been nice, but its easy to say this is this from our comfortable perspective of 2011.

[SBL]

And how can anyone be sure those families that took the children were really stable and secure? Sure? Impossible. Reasonably sure? Compare with the available alternatives.

We live in an imperfect world, and there are no guarantees--not even to a mother's love. But at least this way one could argue those kids had a better chance.

[shermbodius]

We live in an imperfect world, and there are no guarantees--not even to a mother's love. But at least this way, one might argue those kids had a fighting chance.
I don't know much, but what is done is done. Let's hope it worked out.

[Noons86.]

It's already been said that during that time unwed motherhood was a huge stigma, and that putting children born out of wedlock up for adoption was a very common practice. Against that backdrop, the people running this operation probably thought they were doing the right thing.

The problem is that they lied to the mothers and didn't give them a choice. What's done is done, for better or for worse, but those affected have every right to be angry.

[seraosha]

blah blah blah
Connaught Ranger

Ok, had lunch feel much more myself now.

**** you, cannot ranger...clear enough?
:grin:

[Stormz_STA]

So a Family would be less stable, less secure than an Unwed Mother in the 1940's 50's, 60's?

I wouldn't know. However, those children were taken ("stolen" would be a more appropriate word) from their mothers and given to people whose parenting qualifications were evaluated based on their religious beliefs and financial situation. I doubt anyone really gave a damn about whether those people were really fit to become parents and build stable and secure environment for the children.

[Xaito]

Lying to the mother doesn't sit with me ethically, but in some way I can see how it would be a kind of mercy. We don't live in Disney world.



Don't know if you ever witnessed what it means for a woman to carry a child for 9 months and give birth to it.
It's not the lying which is the problem here - it's taking that child from her, with whom a normal mother has an attachment stronger than to anything else and for whom she went through extreme hardship.
imho one of the most despicable things you can do.

[Universals]

Well, that all depends, doesn't it? I suppose if I were to sire some poor bastard, I could go one of two ways. Either I could man-up and take responsibility as the child's father, marry the mother, as would be expected of any good Papist, and do my best to raise him. In which case it would be a non-issue.
no it wouldn't be a non-issue cos these folks were told their babies had died at birth, they didn't even get the chance to even see their babies not to talk of deciding if they would be able to take care of them or not. You are skirting the real issue here. It's simply wrong.