Most successful SOF operations in the 20th Century

[James]

I am posting this because of the popularity of the recent threads re: offensive oprations, defensive operations, etc. I would like to set some limits to focus the discussion, though.

1. Operations that were undertaken by SOF troops (I'll define this as soldiers/Marines who were trained above and beyond the scope necessary for normal military operations)
2. Actions that took place in the 20th century.
3. Actions undertaken by national military forces (no mercenary stuff...)

Other than that, you name it. Zeerbrugge, 1918? Pegasus Bridge, 1944? Princess Gate, 1980? Just Cause, 1989? Desert Storm, 1991?

I wait with baited breath :D

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Eben Emael

Mussolini's rescue by Skorzeny

[James]

Why those? Details, please...

[Argyll]

James why not these?
You asked he delivered,you never said to give details,if you look through the forums about 2 weeks back there's already a good article about this posted by HE219.
My choice.......Operation Nimrod (Iranian Embassey 1980)by the SAS

[front]

Entebbe?

http://www.idf.il/english/history/entebbe1.stm





But I'll add in the Son Tay raid here:

http://www.sontayraider.com/

"It was not successful though." you say. "Its mission was to rescue American POWs and it did not rescue any."

http://www.sontayraider.com/Slide16.JPG

http://www.sontayraider.com/Slide8.JPG

http://www.sontayraider.com/SontayRaiderPreparationforinsertion.htm

But it might have.

cheers

front

[Seiyuuki]

I think Son Tay was just tough luck in that the POW were moved before they got there.

[Phantom]

the most successful SF missions will probably be the ones that they keep to themselves.

[Royal]

Eban Emael - the detials have been discussed. I would argue that it was more important for the Allies than the Axis, sure it raised the profile of the Fallschirmjaeger and probably led (at least indirectly) to the invasion of Crete and the Musolini rescue, but it was a wake up call to the Allies (Brits in particular).

It showed the possibilities of highly trained small units in a way that had never really been done before and so led to the conversion of Royal Marine units to Commando's, raising of the Parachute Regiment and Army Commando's and also led to the multitude of smaller units that later became or refined the SAS and SBS (X Boats, RMBPD, RMCAW, LRDG, Popski's Private Army etc.).

[Phantom]

Argyll, how can u say that Op Nimrod is the most successful. A bloke got burnt, a terrorist survived, another hostage was killed after the assault began.

[DE6]

I agree with Phantom. The most succesful won't be heard of before a while. Secrecy is in part what makes it the most successful.

[front]

"Argyll, how can u say that Op Nimrod is the most successful. A bloke got burnt, a terrorist survived, another hostage was killed after the assault began."

I drove past the Iranian Embassy in London during those weeks. I will not easily forget the big tarps which were used to cordon off the area. I did not like it...

Are you joking with the three quoted points above about that mission?

Most of the hostages walked out of that building ALIVE! Their families were, and still are, VERY happy with the result.

Your points above are... I don't know... you must be joking. "Bloke got burnt" my a...

:-)

cheers

front

[Phantom]

yes, it was a very good mission, but most successful? i don't think so. a complete success is the most successful. and yes, a bloke did get burnt, i dunno what his name is so i just said a bloke. he was abseiling down to one of the windows and became entangled in his own rope. the explosives used to blow the windows was more than needed because they thought that they could be bullet proof, the explosion set the curtains on fire and THIS burned him, so shut the **** up

[oldsoak]

IMHO I think they did good at Princes Gate. As in all operations of that type, there is a high element of risk and try as one might, one cannot cover everything. One can only cover so much and the rest is down to good training and luck in timely doses. As I understand it, the SAS objectives were :
1 ) end the seige
2) get as many hostages out alive as possible,
( . It was accepted that there was the possibility of casualties amongst the hostages. It is not realistic to think that it did not exist. )
They succeeded in their objectives. The bloke that got burned was unlucky but thats sods law, - it happens. The captured terrorist was useful to the intel blokes. Bonus. Was it the best ever SOF op yet ? We dont know, but I think most SOF operators would have been pleased with the results. Just my 2p.
rgds

[Phantom]

don't get me wrong, i thought that the boys did a fantastic job, but i've read of mor successful ops.

[Argyll]

So then instead of saying that Nimrod was bollocks Phantom,you haven't posted anything either to say what was your opinion other than the "the ones you don't hear about!!What a muppet!If you don't hear about them,how the fu*k can you tell if they're succesful or not?
As for the guy getting burnt,well at Entebbe they lost a guy,and you never criticised that one!
As for the surviving terrorist,he hid among the hostages,and it was when they completed the rescue he was fingered by the other hostages,and he was frogmarched out of their view,they were going to top him,but by that time the worlds media now knew who the SAS were!!
Instead of telling people to shut the fu*k up,perhaps you'd care to tell us the most succesful one
You want another example then?How about the Operation at Loughgall,where James Lynagh and his ASU were taken out by the SAS?
Oh perhaps a bad example due to the 2 civvies who were killed when the drove into the kill zone by mistake,but everything else was Mission Accomplished...........therfore a success!!!

[oldsoak]

It would be interesting to see if perhaps we equate lots of enemy bodies with success to the detriment of anything else. What I mean to say is how about the countless intel missions carried out by SF ? Lets take a possible scenario - Aussie SAS get tasked with locating the hideout of a militia leader in West Timor during the period when they were making incursions and causing mayhem in East Timor. - contact is to be avoided at all costs because the political fallout that would result . They go in, locate him, observe and make notes and recover back to Oz unseen. No bodies, no fireworks, no headlines. It sounds "unexciting", but the reality is that its highly dangerous, requires seriously top skills and no one will ever buy you a beer for it. I'd wager something similar has happened in the Balkans etc and has been carried out by various SF from interested countries. They keep on adding that liitle piece to the jigsaw so it all starts to come together. Its not all fireworks, but it is hard work, and success is not immediate or obvious
rgds

[Haiw]

u can't really answer this question, because A there's multiple ways to determine the 'best' operation, B everyone'll just vote for his 'favorite' operation, and C not all operations are known... (both successes and ****ups)

[usa320]

the most successful SF missions will probably be the ones that they keep to themselves.

[MEGR]

Hmmm. Thats tough.. In my opinion, one of the most successful SOF ops was the one to rescue Kurt Muse in Just Cause.

[Argyll]

So then what's the point of this thread?

[Haiw]

the most successful SF missions will probably be the ones that they keep to themselves.
they dont just keep the successes to themselves; they try to keep the failures to themselves too lol

[James]

the most successful SF missions will probably be the ones that they keep to themselves.

I didn't think that I'd have to point it out, but I was writing about operations that are public knowledge... in the history books... :|

[Phantom]

it seems you do. In that case, the most successful mission I've ever read about is the opening mission in One Perfect Op, by Dennis Chalker

[ogukuo72]

Amongst Op Nimrod, Son Tay Raid and Entebbe, I'll have to say Entebbe wins hands down. Here's why:

1. The operation involves a long flight by 4 C130s from Israel to Uganda and back again. Op Nimrod did not have to do this. Son Tay was a close comparison.

2. It involves a direct landing on an enemy-held airbase which had not been seized by friendly troops, not by one Charlie, but by four. Again, Op Nimrod did not have to do this. Son Tay was a close comparison, except the helis land directly into enemy camps.

3. After landing, the old airport terminal had to be seized and the hostages rescued - difficult enough when you had all the prepartions on the ground before going in, but near-impossible when you had to do it on the fly as the Israelis did. Op Nimrod had days of prep needed to do this. Again, Son Tay came close - they had to seize the pens and rescue POWs on the fly without prep on the ground.

4. The rest of the airport must be seized and held while the evacuation of hostages take place. It's amazing that this was accomplished with only one fatality. Again, Op Nimrod did not have to do this. Son Tay again came close where the areas around the prison and "secondary school" had to be secured for the evac.

5. An exfil with no rear-guard to cover the main evac as the four Charlies take off from what is essentially still an airport in the middle of enemy territory. Again, Op Nimrod did not have to do this. When the Op was over, the troopers walked out and handed the hostages over to the police. Son Tay also came close to this, except that the Americans had air support in the form of fighter bombers to cover the evac. The Israelis didn't.

Entebbe and Son Tay came very close to one another in the "Greatest Spec Ops" sweep stake. But Entebbe have to be the one, as it was definitely mission accomplished with the hostages rescued. Son Tay missed the prize because the POWs had already been moved, and thus the mission was not really accomplished. It was no fault of the operators and all those supporting them, however - faulty intelligence was to blame.

[James]

Thanks for your input. That was the kind of post I hoped to see.

[ogukuo72]

Just an afterthought: If Op Eagle Claw had been sussessful, then it would definitely have topped Entebbe as the most successful Spec Op, given the complexity and difficulty of the operation.

[Phantom]

yeah, but due to some ****ty planning, some ****ty choppers, ****ty weather, and a ****ty pilot, it didn't. A lot would have to change.

[Argyll]

Hey I got one!!
how about the French sinking the Greenpeace ship rainbow warrior!!!!?

[Ichhabe]

An act of sabotage which became famous and possibly had a certain effect on the outcome of the war, was the attack on the heavy water plant at Vemork, in Telemark county. Here, Norwegian soldiers, trained in the UK, were sent into action near the small town of Rjukan, where Norsk Hydro produced heavy water, a liquid chemical which the Germans needed for the development of an atomic bomb. Although the Germans guarded the plant, the production facilities were destroyed. Heavy water which was en route to Germany was also destroyed, at the cost of many Norwegian civilian lives.

[Kriz]

Yeah Ichhabe that opertaion was pretty important because if those heavy water supplies had reached Germany Hitler most likely would almost certain have had at least one atom bomb which would have altered history forever.

[XASA]

Makin Island. http://www.usmarineraiders.org/makin.html

A Marine Raider Battalion launched from submarines in rubber boats assaulted a Japanese held island, then returned to the submarines. A prototypical large scale special operation that was made into the classic war film, "Gung Ho," starring Randolph Scott. Later in the war the Raider Battalions were broken up and the men sent to regular marine infantry units because the Corps felt all their men were special operations capable- the more things change the more they stay the same.

[ibstolidude]

WOW PHANTOM - that is either very ballsy or more likely super ****ing ignorant to blame a "****ty" pilot for the failures of Desert 1/op eagle.

I guess in a world of the infinite wisdom of the internet, you are in a true position to judge his abilities.
I mean with all the experience you have had flying at night with NVG's (at that time it was a new, rarely conducted event, that was fairly undeveloped in the US) under black out conditions, in desert white out conditions, using helicopters that lacked air refueling capabilities (as with most helos at the timelacked long range caps as well, requiring a ground FARP/FSA - which the equipment used did not exist but was created), being days with minimal sleep due to OPTEMPO (not to mention anxiety), operating under combat conditions, performing tasks never before tried by your military, flying through a sand storm across the great Salt Desert depp in Iran, flying under 500 feet (200 by some accounts depending on chalk), 1 helo turns back, 1 has hydraulic failure, now as day is approaching, your ground force has already been forced to detain civilians and blow a fuel truck, with day will come IRanian troops.
having to move a helo to refuel on the 130's, the rotar caused a whiteout in the small are the rotor hits the stabilizer of a 130 and that sparked the tragic events. 1/2 hour later the last plane evacs. - try reading some of the accounts of the men who were there.

Granted you are entitled to your own opinion, as I am to mine; but perhaps before you go punking off at the mouth about those that gave their lives under conditions performing acts you will likely never be called upon to do, maybe you should have a go at think first.

[Phantom]

lol, for someone trying to get me to think, your not doing much. I've read an account of a man INSIDE the exploding C-130. So I think I've got good insight into what happened. That C-130 was on the ground, and hit hit it with his chopper, granted the weather was not his fault, but I included that point in what I said, same goes for the choppers. And the choppers that they used were infamous for needing mechanical attention and otherwise. And the extremely fine sand that is in the huge sand storms they have (can't remember the name, think it starts with an N) got into the chopper and apparently caused that hydrolic problem.

So, get your facts right about me before you try and tear me apart because you know so much. Because when you have a go at someone, and they give it straight back at you, especially when you've been as hypocritical as you're being, it makes you look like a jackass, plain and simple.

[oldsoak]

IMHO, given the technology of the time, the US and Israel were the only countries that could have even contemplated that type of log range insertion/recovery in Iran. The choppers used were the only ones capable of the payload/range needed and the C130 was the best medium transport aircraft of the time. I dont think any more could have asked of these troops. Yes, it was right on the edge of feasibility and yes, it went wrong, but lessons were learnt and the mission contributed considerably to allied SF understanding of how to plan and what to do for similar missions.
rgds

[warchild1/27scout]

i would have to say a handfull of sf taking over afghanistan. that was somewhat impressive.

[UoUo]

i would have to say a handfull of sf taking over afghanistan. that was somewhat impressive.

Ha.....did afganistan had a army ?

[ibstolidude]

phantom

I never addressed the "****ty choppers", I care less anout what you feel they should have used... I address your "armchair commando (with reclindo tab)" second guessing of the pilots skills..
certainly the entire tasked force was picked for being the best, but the pilots they just found on a street corner.

I feel you are in no know position to second guess the pilots skills.

both the following posted by USAF..
read what the critique of the pilots skills was..
some complained about the pilot's skill FOR NOT going further! For turning back, NOT for causing the crash.. the crash was after the abort attempt during the refueling...and incidently the investigation stated the Helicopter pilots flew as planned nap of earth to ensure limited detection (although others wanted them to fly above the ssand storm) - NO MENTION of blaming the pilots for the crash...but blamed for not flying abopve the storms - read as to what mechanicl failures that caused the abort. a mechanical error is not the same as pilot skill. - they actually blame the crash a lack of rehearsal for the refueling, and evac.

Unless you were not referring to the crash and meant "A (singular) ****ty pilot" caused the 3 helicopters to abort.

http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0401/hostage.html

http://www.afa.org/magazine/jan1999/0199desertone.asp -

the tragedy did become pivitol in the development in US SOF and the creation of the unified SOCOM.

[DE6]

i would have to say a handfull of sf taking over afghanistan. that was somewhat impressive.

Ha.....did afganistan had a army ?

What for? Everyone in Afghanistan owns a rifle and belong to a tribe, ethnicity, religious or political group and fight it out over...well, over pretty much anything. But there is always a strong consensus on two matters: invaders and land rights. Oh, and Allah's will, since 1996.
So when the US SOF landed in the 'Stan, they met a nation in arms, instead of an army and a civilian population. Some of them against them (because of religion or political beliefs, ie Al-Qaeda, which was damn close to a private army), some on their side, because of interests (your enemy is my enemy's friend, therefore my enemy too; or better yet: so you can bomb my enemy with JDAMs? Come, my friend!) or more simply money (how much was funneled to Dostum?...wait I don't have enough fingers).
Given the proliferation of weapons and feuds present in Afghanistan, the success of US operations is every bit comparable to ones performed against a more traditionally organized enemy, or "army", if you must.

[Phantom]

ffs ib. i don't give a **** of you don't care less about what i feel they should have used, the fact is that ALL the elements that i put forth some posts earlier contributed to a failed mission. i'm sure not all the pilots were ****ty, and i don't have anything against the ones that turned back and the ones that had malfunctions, they didn't cause them. but that one bloke that hit a parked c-130, that's who i've got my beef with.

[Apogee]

Fortunatly someone thought up a method for evauluating the relative success of a special operation. His name is McRaven. He developed the 6 principles of special operations. Based off those principles we can evaluate the operation from the first alert to the final AAR. While at the Naval Postgraduate school, he wrote a book called Spec Ops: Case Studies in Special Operations Warfare: Theory and Practice . I'd recommend the book to any of yas. Anyway, it takes McRaven a full chapter in his book to flush out these 6 princliples, so I'm def glossing over them. But here they are, broken up into 3 phases: planning, preperate, and execuation.

Planning:
#1 - Simpicity - limited number of objectives, good intel and innovation

Perparation:
#2 - Security - OPSEC, concealing time and method of operation
#3 - Repitition - Practicing the operation over and over, working out all of the bugs.

Execution:
#4 - Surprise - Combines an unanticipated time and method of attack with innovation ideas from simplicity.
#5 - Speed - Least amount of time possible on the objective, reduces vunerability on the ground
#6 - Purpose - Maintaining the inititive. Completing the specified objective.

McRaven was the commander of SEAL Team 3 at one point so the man has def. been there and done that. Just my .02$

[ibstolidude]

Tane angle
preach on - preacher man

[Apogee]

Yeah, I agree, great post Tane.

Turned out pretty decently I think. It was just to help the new British Leiason officer get used to the way we write aka anything bu the Queens English. Royal knows that I'm talking about. Thanks for asking. Hope everyone has a good one.

[ibstolidude]

Tane - i hope the doctor stuff ends with you in good health..

best of luck.

[ogukuo72]

Fortunatly someone thought up a method for evauluating the relative success of a special operation. His name is McRaven. He developed the 6 principles of special operations. Based off those principles we can evaluate the operation from the first alert to the final AAR. While at the Naval Postgraduate school, he wrote a book called Spec Ops: Case Studies in Special Operations Warfare: Theory and Practice . I'd recommend the book to any of yas. Anyway, it takes McRaven a full chapter in his book to flush out these 6 princliples, so I'm def glossing over them. But here they are, broken up into 3 phases: planning, preperate, and execuation.

Planning:
#1 - Simpicity - limited number of objectives, good intel and innovation

Perparation:
#2 - Security - OPSEC, concealing time and method of operation
#3 - Repitition - Practicing the operation over and over, working out all of the bugs.

Execution:
#4 - Surprise - Combines an unanticipated time and method of attack with innovation ideas from simplicity.
#5 - Speed - Least amount of time possible on the objective, reduces vunerability on the ground
#6 - Purpose - Maintaining the inititive. Completing the specified objective.

McRaven was the commander of SEAL Team 3 at one point so the man has def. been there and done that. Just my .02$

Read that book too. It's a must-read for all professionals and students of military tactics. Especially liked the analysis of Entebbe, Son Tay and Eagle Claw.

[Apogee]

Yeah, I agree its a great read for anyone interested in Special Operations. I had to read it for a class on Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflicts here at the academy. Awsome class too btw.

Tane - hope you're doing alright buddy.

[andrew45c]

You never hear about the succesful ones only about the blunders or so someone said but cant remember who.

[NcDeuce]

PERSEC

[Argyll]

You mean the drop by the rangers that had some of them end up in mudflats,and swampland,or was that the 82nd guys?.........not what I'd call succesfull!..........more like crap planning to have a DZ near such natural obstacles

[andrew45c]

Yeah were talking about the most succesful not the worst planned sof op.

[Gordon]

rofl

[front]

Up'd edit so it is:

Eben Emael

Nimrod

Son Tay

And our friend "ibstolidude" says on the thread:

"Granted you are entitled to your own opinion, as I am to mine; but perhaps before you go punking off at the mouth about those that gave their lives under conditions performing acts you will likely never be called upon to do, maybe you should have a go at think first "


Is there any chance that WE on this board MIGHT think that SOMEONE 'here' may HAVE some SORT of IDEA... which we may NOT have.

You see how that works?

They talk... we listen.

Let me make that clear (with an edit)... "ibstolidude" posts = I shut it and am all ears. Ears!

cheers

front

[P220ST]

Perhaps it was SOG snatching operation in Cambodia that managed to grab a very sensitive target, code named "bicycle".

[Haiw]

technically speaking, eben emael wasn't a SOF operation...

still a great offensive action tho, but still not SOF...

[canuck]

Raid on Entebbe, British Commandos and US Rangers at Dieppe. British Commandos raid St. Nazaire.

[Haiw]

Raid on Entebbe, British Commandos and US Rangers at Dieppe. British Commandos raid St. Nazaire.

dieppe was by the canucks, not (or at least, not many) british commandos, and US rangers hardly EXISTED at the time of dieppe...and 2nd, altho some important lessons were learned that helped in the succes of operation overlord, it was still a huge failure...

and of course the dieppe raid was FAR from a SOF op....don't know about the nazaire raid..

[S'13]

Other then 'Entebbe' there is also 'Operation spring of youth' which was very successful:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/opspring.html

[Gordon]

dieppe was by the canucks, not (or at least, not many) british commandos, and US rangers hardly EXISTED at the time of dieppe...and 2nd, altho some important lessons were learned that helped in the succes of operation overlord, it was still a huge failure...

and of course the dieppe raid was FAR from a SOF op....don't know about the nazaire raid..

Actually British Commandos were deployed for the first time at Dieppe and there were quite a few of them there, granted the majority were Canadian but there were a number of Brits present too.

Over 6.000 men were to land, among them 4.965 Canadians from the 2nd Division (including the crews of 50 Churchill tanks) and 1.200 British men belonging to the Commandos and the Royal Marines. 250 boats effected the transport (duck-boats, destroyers, gunboats, patrol boats, landing-craft...). Around 1.000 aircraft (fighters, bombers) were used to support and defend the landing force.

extract taken from http://www.mairie-dieppe.fr/canada-gb/canadaGBF.html

That was just the first website I could find on google about Dieppe. You can find that info. in plenty of books and other sites.

[Gordon]

How about the SAS during the early years of WW2 in the desert. They did some pretty successful missions against German airfields. Paddy Mayne accounted for around a 100 odd German fighters/bombers(i don't have the exact figure here) personally, which is more than any pilot shot down throughout the war.

I was reading about the second mission undertaken by the SAS in the desert (the first one was a total failure by the way) where 2 groups of 4 men each attacked 2 different airfields. One group didn't manage to infiltrate the base but the other did taking out more than 20 planes and a number of men to boot before moving back out into the desert to meet up with the other 4 and the LRDG (long range desert group) to hitch a lift back to base.

Sounds like quite an undertaking to me .. of course i'm British and maybe a little biased.

[James]

The British had a great number of successful commando operations during World War Two. The Commandoes were formed in 1940. Winston Churchill wrote a letter to the war cabinet that stated, in part:

"Enterprises must be prepared with specially trained troops of the hunter class who can devlop a reign of terror down the enemy coast."

Among the successful British commando ops during the war were the raid on the Lofoten Islands in Norway, 1941; Maloy and Vagsoy, Norway, 1941; Bruneval, France, 1942; Saint Nazaire, France, `1942; Dieppe, in 1942, was successful for the commandoes and a small contigent of U.S. Army Rangers as well. They completed their mission, but the raid itself failed.

[PsihoKekec]

St. Nazaire was only partialy succesfull, they achived mission goal but most of the commandoes were killed or captured (only three of those who landed managed to escape) and several boats were sunk and their navy crews lost. Altaugh retribution was bloody.
But what about operation Jaywick? Australian commandoes went with old fishing boat from Australia to Singapur, blew up several cargo ship in harbour and returned unscratched.
More from second worl war. In february 1944 group of diversants from 9. partisan corpus led by comander of 31. division inteligence unit Evgen Matejka-Pemc blew up hevily defended mercury mine in Idrija. Since mercury was neded in production of artillery detonators and Idrija mine was second largest in Europe, SS general Roesner took a lot of steam from Berlin for his inefficiency.
The same group also blew up a large fuel depot positioned inside Postojnska jama (Postojna cave). Main entrance was heavily defended and side entrances sealed off and regulary checked by patrols. Partisan group broke down the iron doors and made holes into concrete and brick walls. Inside experienced speleologist led them thrugh the maze of tunnels to the gasoline. They set it on fire and escaped unfried. Several Germans vere burned in there so the german HQ immediatlely launched a retribution action again nearby villages but sufferd heavy casualties as they tried to break through 9. corpus.
I visited that cave few years ago and the ''gasoline'' part is still black.

[Royal]

Actually British Commandos were deployed for the first time at Dieppe and there were quite a few of them there, granted the majority were Canadian but there were a number of Brits present too.

The first operation by British Commandos in WWII was the Lofoten Islands raid in in Norway 1941.

St. Nazaire was only partialy succesfull, they achived mission goal but most of the commandoes were killed or captured (only three of those who landed managed to escape) and several boats were sunk and their navy crews lost. Altaugh retribution was bloody.

St.Nazaire was wholely sucessfull in that the dry docks were rendered inopperative for the remainder of the war. Yes, there were significant casualties, but that was expected. They were deemed a target of such importance, that the sacrifice of men and materiel was considered acceptable from the outset as it meant that the German 'pocket battleships' could not be repaired and operate from the Atlantic coast of France, and were thus confined to Norway and the Baltic...

[Gordon]

Thanks for the correction ... ;) .

Hope you're finding yourself well Royal.

[Royal]

No worries, slainthe to you too mate :D

[bishop1]

Well if i had to choose, I would say that the operation in Nam by Tom Norris and his VN LDNN counterpart to save the shot down pilot was extrodinary, and took balls the size of basketballs and extreme skill. My second choice, although it would be hard to clarify this as one mission, would be the A-Team+AF Combat Controller in Afghanistan missions. For a few months, the A Teams were responsible (with the help of external support) for over 40,000 AQ and Taliban deaths. Now, i know most of their "combat" was calling in airstrikes and painting targets or calling corodiantes, but thats awhole lot of ass kicking going on. Just my thoughts.

[aktarian]

Assault on Kabul by Soviets, December 1979 (early phase, before paras got there)

Mirbat, July 1972 (55 Omanis and 9 SAS troopers defended agaisnt some 250 rebels)-not typicall SF action but impressive anyway

[Russian Texan]

Assault on Amin's Palace by spetsnaz KGB.
The palace was on top of the hill/mountain with only one road leading up to it that was guarded by 3 tanks, several artillery pieces, multiple mortars and heavy machineguns. It garissoned 250 afgani "guard" soldiers. 2 Shilka AA guns provided cover fire for 48 KGB operatives that moved up the hill/mountain on 4 APCs. They have climed over the walls under very intensive fire, actually they didn't climb but rather run up them (I don't know if any of you have seen it, but it looks very impressive when several people support the pole and a person runs up the wall while holding on to it). Anyhow, by the time they have made it into the courtyard most of them were wounded. The fight inside the Palace itself was mostly hand to hand combat and lobbing grenades at point blank range. Simultaneously there was made an assault by spetsnaz VDV on all key installations and communication centers in and around Kabul to establish control over the capital and prevent deployment of reinforcements. To make a long story short, in the end Soviets lost 4 dead and almost everyone else out of initial 48 was wounded in one way or another. Spetsnaz KGB didn't take any prisoners and all of the Amin's defenders, including his family and servants, were killed.

[aktarian]

Assault on Amin's Palace by spetsnaz KGB.


Description of assault on Kabul (not just palace)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2002/MOUTGrau.htm

[Kitsune]

What is "Spetnaz KGB"? Isn't Spetnaz part of the Red Army and not of KGB? Or does this "KGB" mean something different?

[fred_engles]

Spetsnaz is basically russian for "special forces." Not special forces as in "US Army Special Forces," but as in "France has a number of special forces units."

That is, it is not a unit, but a type of unit, and the various branches/forces of the russsian security aparatus will generally each have their own spetsnaz units.

[Flagg]

I think I'd go with the following two:

1.) The SAS "Hearts and Minds" operation in Malaya.

I think it's reasonably safe to say that the creation and implementation of the "Hearts and Minds" operations and philosophy played a huge role in the elimination of the communist insurgency in Malaya.

The success of the campaign helped ensure the continued existence of the UK SAS and was a catalyst for the creation of the SASR and NZSAS, of which all 3 are considered to be Tier 1 SF units.

The "Hearts and Minds" philosophy has since become an integral part of other SF unit operations......primarily US Army Special Forces ODAs.

Although these "Hearts and Minds" operations may be perceived as less "high speed" or news worthy I would speculate that the greatest impact SF has made in the 20th century is a direct result of lessons learned from the Malayan Emergency "Hearts and Minds" operations.


2.) I would also rank highly the use of SF liason personnel amongst the various coaltion partners during the creation/buildup/operations in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I wouldn't have wanted to have the job of trying to hold together a coalition consisting of numerous Arab military contingents that could have unraveled quite easily durig the buildup.

But if there's one mission that deserved to be successful I think it would have to be Son Tay....

the idea of intentionally crashing a chopper right into the middle of the camp while hosing the guard towers with miniguns takes big brass balls...simple...brutal....effective

[Royal]

1.) The SAS "Hearts and Minds" operation in Malaya.

I think it's reasonably safe to say that the creation and implementation of the "Hearts and Minds" operations and philosophy played a huge role in the elimination of the communist insurgency in Malaya.

The success of the campaign helped ensure the continued existence of the UK SAS and was a catalyst for the creation of the SASR and NZSAS, of which all 3 are considered to be Tier 1 SF units.

The "Hearts and Minds" philosophy has since become an integral part of other SF unit operations......primarily US Army Special Forces ODAs.


The 'Hearts and Minds' concept was evolved earlier in the 1950's in Keyna during the 'Mau Mau Emergency' by Gen Sir Frank Kitson.

Despite the fact that 'Bunch of Fives' is on the required reading list at both Lympstone and Sandhurst, it's a lesson we seem to be trying hard to forget. :(

[NcDeuce]

p-) True.

[Flagg]

The 'Hearts and Minds' concept was evolved earlier in the 1950's in Keyna during the 'Mau Mau Emergency' by Gen Sir Frank Kitson.

I wasn't aware the concept was used before Malaya......I haven't been able to find much relevant material regarding the Kenyan insurgency problem in the 1950's...thanks for that.

[NcDeuce]

The heavy surf had soaked the ropes, making them too heavy for the rocket propelled grappels to lift. The pre-landing bombardment had stirrred up the dirt on the cliffs and the few ropes that made it up became slick with mud. The seas were so heavy that only one of the special assault ladders was raised and it had to brought back down when it threatened to capsize the DUKW it was mounted on. Without much close in fire to deter them, German defenders lobbed grenades down the cliffs and riddled the beach with machine gun and mortar fire. Fifteen Rangers became casualties on the beach.

The 5th Ranger Battalion was tasked to help the 2nd. When the 5th was not able to brodcast the taking of their objective (they were a half hour late and sea water had destroyed their radios) the 5th went in with the 29th Infantry to try and gain that objective over land.

It was during this battle that the modern day Rangers' motto "Rangers lead the way" was created. The Assistant Division Commander of the 29th Infantry was trying to rally his men, who were pinned down on the beaches by heavy German fire. "Don't die on the beaches," General Cota told them, "die up on the bluffs if you have to die, but get off the beaches or you're sure to die!" He then ran into a group of Rangers that were preparing to break out of the beachhead and told one of the Ranger officers present that he knew the Rangers would not let him down and that he expected the Rangers to lead the way.


All this and the U.S. Rangers still came out on top.

[-Max-]

One of the most succesfull SOF operations IMHO:

Operation Dragon Rouge, by Belgian Para-Commandos (with the help of USAF ;) ) in Stanleyville, Congo (November 1964).

Operation DRAGON ROUGE, RED DRAGON in English, was one of the most dramatic military missions undertaken during the Cold War. It involved a flight of more than 4,000 miles by USAF C-130s carrying paratroopers of the crack Belgian 1st ParaCommando to rescue hostages who had been held for more than three months in the Congolese city of Stanleyville.

Africa was an unstable place in the 1960s, even more so than it is today. The former Belgian Colony of Congo, now known as Zaire, was granted independence in 1960, and almost immediately became the site of chaos. When the crisis ended in early 1964, a new one broke out as Congolese rebels calling themselves "Simba" rebelled against the government. The Congolese government turned to the United States for help. In response, the US Strike Command sent JTF LEO, a task force made up of a detachment of C-130s, communications personnel and and 82nd Airborne security team, to Leopoldville.

By early August, 1964 the Congolese, with the help of the LEO force and a group of white mercenaries led by Major Mike Hoare, was making headway against the Simbas. In retaliation, the Simbas began taking hostages of the whites in areas under their control. They took them to Stanleyville and placed them under guard in the Victoria Hotel.

While the world watched anxiously, in Washington and Brussels the United States and Belgium were hard at work trying to come up with a rescue plan. Several ideas were considered and discarded, while attempts at negotiating with the Simbas failed - no one could be found to negotiate with!

In mid-November the C-130Es and crews of the Tactical Air Command rotational squadron from Pope AFB, NC were called back to their temporary duty base at Evreux-Fauville AB, France from missions throughout Europe. The crews were told simply to go to their barracks and get some rest, because something big was brewing. On Tuesday evening, November 17, the crews were told to report to the operations room on the Margarite where the airplanes were deployed. The crews were told to rig seats and take-off. Just before take-off, each navigator was given a Manila envelope and instructed not to open it until their airplane had reached 2,000 feet and there were no mechanical problems to make them turn back. When the crews opened the envelopes, they learned they were going to Klinebrogel, a Belgian military airfield outside Brussels. When they got to Klinebrogel, each airplane loaded with paratroopers wearing red berets, then took off again after being handed another envelope. This time it told them to head south for Moron AB, on the Spanish Mediterranean. At Moron the navigators went into Base Operations where they were given maps and instructions for the next leg of their flight, to Ascension Island in the South Atlantic, where they arrived 18 hours after leaving France.

By this time everyone knew they were on their way to Africa, but first there was a time of "hurry up and wait" on secluded Ascension, where the rescue force was out of sight of the prying eyes of the world. While they waited, the American airmen and Belgian paras got to know each other, and began working out procedures to drop the Belgians.

On Sunday before Thanksgiving the force left Ascension and flew across the Atlantic and much of Africa to Kamina, an airfield in the southern Congo. There the crews and paratroopers waited again. By this time all hopes of negotiation had vanished, and that evening the American and Belgian commanders were told to launch Operation DRAGON ROUGE.

In the early hours of November 23, 1964 five C-130s took off from Kamina, each with 64 Belgian Red Berets in full combat gear seated on the red nylon troop seats in its cargo compartment. Behind the assault force came seven more Herks, with Chalk 12 configured as a hospital ship. The C-130s flew north at high altitude, then dropped down to treetop altitudes to follow the Congo River as they neared the city of Stanleyville.

As the sun was breaking over the horizon out of the African Veldt, a CIA A-26 INVADER flown by a Cuban mercenary pilot made a strafing pass over the Stanleyville Sabenas airport. Right behind the A-26 the first C-130 roared low over the runway. As the airplane came over the field, paratroopers led by Col Charles Laurent spilled from the doors on either side of the airplane. Within seconds, 310 paratroopers were in the air, then landing on the strip of grass alongside the runway. The five jump planes came around for another pass to drop the jumpmasters and bundles of equipment. As the airplanes came off the drop zone, they began taking fire from a .50-caliber machinegun. After dropping the troops, Chalks Two through Five left the area for Leopoldville, where they were to refuel and stand-by. Chalk One, carrying the C-130 mission commander, Colonel Burgess Gradwell, and flown by Captain Huey Long of the 777th TCS, orbited over the airfield until they were hit by several heavy shells that knocked out hydraulics. Long pointed the battle-damaged airplane toward Leopoldville.

Forty-five minutes after he jumped, Col. Laurent reported that the airfield was secure. Five other C-130s roared in for assault landings from their orbit point near Stanleyville. Each airplane discharged troops and vehicles to join the paratroopers on the ground, then took off again and headed to Stanleyville. Meanwhile, Chalk Six, flown by Captain Mack Secord's crew, approached Stanleyville. They had lost a life raft after takeoff from Kamina and had to return for the spare airplane. Secord was told to land, and wait with Chalk Twelve, the hospital plane, until the Belgians returned to the airport with the hostages.

After leaving the airport, the Belgian rescue team made haste to reach the Victoria Hotel before the Simbas carried out their threats to kill the hostages if a rescue was attempted. Several blocks from the hotel a paratrooper rounded a corner just in time to prevent the Simbas from firing a second volley of shots into the assembled hostages, who had evidently been walking toward the airport. Some of the hostages later said they thought the Simba officers intended to turn them over to the Belgians unharmed, but some of the Simbas, who had been drinking and smoking Hemp all night the night before, decided to take matters in their own hands. They shot their own officers, then turned their guns on the hostages. They had fired one volley, picking women and children as their targets, and were preparing to fire another when the Red Berets showed up on the scene. At the sight of the Belgians, the Simbas lost their courage and ran!

After more than an hour on the ground at Stanleyville, Mack Secord's crew finally saw the first hostages coming toward them. As they were the most badly injured, they had been driven to the airport. Seeing the engines running and thinking the C-130 was about to take-off, the frightened whites rushed aboard the airplane through the open rear ramp. Secord's loadmasters, there were two aboard, tried to get them over to the other airplane where a doctor waited to tend their wounds. After finally getting the most seriously injured people to leave, Secord's crew closed up their airplane and began taxing for the runway. As they passed a clump of elephant grass, a pair of Simbas ran out. One ran alongside the airplane trying to get inside the door while the other sprayed the underside of the wing with a submachinegun. No one inside the airplane knew what had happened; the whole thing was witnessed by the crew of Chalk 12. Secord took off and headed for Leopoldville. When he got there, he had to be bodily lifted from the airplane and taken to the hospital where he was treated for a brain concussion he had received the night before when he bumped his head getting into the airplane.

For the rest of the day, C-130s and other transports shuttled between Stanleyville and Leopoldville. More than 2,000 people were airlifted out of the city. That night a Belgian mechanic working on a DC-4 was killed by sniper fire. Several times during the day the field was mortared, and every airplane was hit by ground fire during their landings and takeoffs. One was hit in a wing fuel tank. The airplane crew chief whittled a plug from a broom handle and wrapped it with a rag and used it to plug the leak.

The airlift continued the next day. Late in the day the Belgians were pulled out of the city and flown to Leopoldville. Early the next morning a smaller scale mission designated as DRAGON NOIR/BLACK DRAGON, freed hostages held at Paulis, a town 225 miles northwest of Stanleyville. The hostages at Paulis had also been harmed by the Simbas. An American missionary had been beaten to death during torture.

After DRAGON NOIR, the rescue force retired to Kamina to await further orders. While they were waiting, an African thunderstorm prompted one C-130 crewmember, none of whom had had a bath in days, to grab soap and go out into the rain for an impromptu shower. The rest of the force followed his lead as the airmen and paratroopers ran around naked in the rain! A few days later, in response to political pressure from the Third World, President Lyndon Johnson ordered the force ouf of Africa.

For their role in DRAGON ROUGE, the C-130 crewmembers recieved the 1964 MacKay Trophy for the most meritorious flight of the year by USAF aircraft. All of the crewmembers were decorated with the Air Medal, while Captain Mack Secord received the Distinguished Flying Cross.

In all, more than 2.000 hostages were rescued for the loss of 2 Belgian Paras and 11 wounded. On the enemy side, several tens of rebels were killed...

[TriggerPuller]

This topic is making me laugh so hard I almost pissed myself!!!!!!!

TP

[Falco]

Like so many said, Entebbe has my vote.

[US_Frogman]

As far as "known", successful special op missions go, you can't leave out US Navy SEAL actions during the invasion of Panama. On the night of the invasion, two teams from Team 4 had missions in Panama, both meant to prevent the escape of Noriega. The first team was tasked to destroy Noriega's ocean boat, while the other was tasked with the destruction of his private jet. Both operations went to hell because of limited planning time, and the fact that Noriega was expecting similar attacks.

A dive team from the first team was successful in destroying the ship, despite the fact that Noriega's men were using grenades as depth charges against them. The second team was successful in infiltrating the airport where the plane was kept, but were engaged by Noriega's men who had set up defensive positions inside the planes hanger. The SEALs were caught on open ground with no cover, but still managed to disable the jet and neutralize Noriega's men. Four SEALs were killed and eight were wounded in that operation.

[James]

This topic is making me laugh so hard I almost pissed myself!!!!!!!

TP

It started with good intentions...

[NcDeuce]

As far as "known", successful special op missions go, you can't leave out US Navy SEAL actions during the invasion of Panama. On the night of the invasion, two teams from Team 4 had missions in Panama, both meant to prevent the escape of Noriega. The first team was tasked to destroy Noriega's ocean boat, while the other was tasked with the destruction of his private jet. Both operations went to hell because of limited planning time, and the fact that Noriega was expecting similar attacks.

A dive team from the first team was successful in destroying the ship, despite the fact that Noriega's men were using grenades as depth charges against them. The second team was successful in infiltrating the airport where the plane was kept, but were engaged by Noriega's men who had set up defensive positions inside the planes hanger. The SEALs were caught on open ground with no cover, but still managed to disable the jet and neutralize Noriega's men. Four SEALs were killed and eight were wounded in that operation.

I agree, they did a fine job considering some of the circumstances. Those AC-130s ruled the skies in those battles.

[fantassin]

As long as you haven't trained with (or against) African troops, you can't judge Entebbe; flying the C130s was probably the most difficult part of the whole Op... I have seen african soldiers using 82mm mortars as an Air Defence Weapon ! they just don't have a clue.

That's why the IDF is so cocky; they've never fought an army from the developped part of the world; kicking african's asses is a pass time, not really an operation, not even a war.

Kolwezi was the same sort of set up; the 2 REP was flown in a few hours to the other side of Africa, dropped w/o air support in several waves against enemies that had had time to prepare fighting positions, which had armoured vehicles and more modern weapons (they had M16s, FAL, AKs, MG42 etc while the légionnaire were still using the old MAT 49 SMG and FSA 49/56 SLR).

They still destroy them, killing at least (conservative estimate) 163 for the loss of 5 KIAs....

Had they been fighting another type of army, the outcome would have been different.


Kolwezi, Zaire
19-20 May 1978
The 2nd French Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment (2 REP) is an elite unit par excellence, combining as it does the qualities of two elite corps: Foreign Legionnaires and paratroopers. As such, it was well equipped to deal with the crisis that occurred in Shaba Province in south Zaire (today the Democratic Republic of Congo) in May 1978.

The city of Kolwezi is on the Benguela Railway which links it to the port of Lobito, Angola, near Benguela. Kolwezi is the center of a major copper- and cobalt-mining area; uranium, radium, oxide ores, and lime deposits also occur. In the city are plants in which copper and cobalt ores are concentrated; the ores are then shipped by rail to Likasi, to the east, for processing. Kolwezi is also the trade center for the surrounding agricultural area.

Shaba Province, under the name of Katanga, had attempted to break away from the newly independent Congo in 1960. Though the breakaway movement had been defeated, relations between the province and the central government remained poor, and sporadic fighting continued. In 1978, the province was invaded by separatist rebels who took over the town of Kolwezi. Kolwezi was inhabited by over 3,000 Europeans, mainly mining experts and their families, who were regarded as potential hostages by Major Mufu and his 4,000 separatist Tigers'.

A drop of Zairean paratroopers into the town on 16 May was a fiasco. The Zairean leader, President Mobutu, had discussed the affair with his French counterpart to arrange foreign intervention if necessary; it was now very necessary.

Colonel Philippe Erulin's 2 REP was put on standby. The first elements to leave were 1, 2 and 3 Companies, and part of the HQ Company, in five DC-8 aircraft on the night of 17/18 May. The Support and 4 Company would follow later. Flying to Kinshasa, the Legionnaires were packed into four C-130s and one Transall aircraft for the drop: 500 paras in very cramped conditions.


It was broad daylight when the paras landed near Kolwezi, but fortunately the Tigers were caught off guard. A command post was quickly established and the men began to regroup. Even before all the paras had landed, the first groups fanned out and advanced to their objectives. Although the Tigers outnumbered the paras, their discipline and morale had crumbled. Resistance did stiffen, but nothing could halt the ruthless momentum of the attack. As Legionnaires cleared large parts of the town, white settlers began to emerge from cover, most of them hungry, thirsty, and suffering from shock. Tragically, those held in the Impala Hotel were killed before the Legionnaires reached them.

Within two hours of the initial jump, the Legionnaires were in almost complete control of the town. A second wave of aircraft carrying 4 Company, Support Company and the rest of HQ Company was ordered by Colonel Erulin to fly on to Lubumbashi to avoid a night drop. Meanwhile on the ground the Legionnaires continued to patrol and engage the enemy, killing many Tigers and suffering only six casualties.

The second wave dropped in during the early hours of 20 May, but there was little overall fighting until the afternoon, when 4 Company ran into heavy resistance near Metal Shaba. The Tigers mounted an attack, but were stopped by Support Company's 81mm mortars and 89mm anti-tank rockets. The Tigers fled, leaving 80 dead. This was the last major action at Kolwezi, the paras then conducted mopping-up operations. For the men of 2 REP, the operation confirmed their status as elite soldiers.



from:http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/Kolwezi.htm

The Marignane GIGN operation was a very successful Op; no hostage killed, the 4 terrorists dead against 9 GIGN members WIA.

[S'13]

As long as you haven't trained with (or against) African troops, you can't judge Entebbe; flying the C130s was probably the most difficult part of the whole Op... I have seen african soldiers using 82mm mortars as an Air Defence Weapon ! they just don't have a clue.

That's why the IDF is so cocky; they've never fought an army from the developped part of the world; kicking african's asses is a pass time, not really an operation, not even a war.

At Entebbe there weren't just Ugandan troops (although there were many) but also PLO terrorists. The Israeli C-130's had to elude the radar of six nations. There was a time limitation for the planing and execution of the operation since the terrorist would have started executing hostages if their demands weren't carried out. As Dan Shomron (former chief of general staff) said:"You had more than 100 people sitting in a small room, surrounded by terrorists with their fingers on the trigger. They could fire in a fraction of a second. we had to fly seven hours, land safely, drive to the terminal area where the hostages were being held, get inside, and eliminate all the terrorists before any of them could fire."
I don't think you need much training in order to spray a room full of hostages with bullets, this is what makes the fact that only two hostages were killed in the crossfire so amazing. Also this kind of operation was the first of it's kind.

[S'13]

CT operations
-Operation High Voltage, April 19, 1980.

-Operation Spring of Youth, April 1973

Hostage rescue
-Operation Isotope, May 1972.

-Hotel Savoy Raid, March 1975.

-Operation Thunderball (Entebbe), July 1976.

Intelligence gathering
-Operation Rooster 53, December 1969.

[Javehn]

That's why the IDF is so cocky; they've never fought an army from the developped part of the world; kicking african's asses is a pass time, not really an operation, not even a war.
Slightly off-topic , but : I guess fighting with 5 armies simultaniosly , while one of them is the most developed army in the region for that time doesn't counts ....
(Jordain army , if you didn't knew , is total replicant of British Army , many of it's officer are traines in British Royal academies , it was founded by British officers , and training methods and disciplines in the Jordanian army are same as British . And for the time i am talking , they had much better equipment, then IDF braking apart equip)

Oh , well , i am shure the great French army can kick British ass every day twice . By the way , what grear army fought and totally lost in Indo-China during 50's , to bunch of "neanderthals" ?? Yep , thank you (I mean no disrespect , just to show someone he has wrong attitude . Excuse me for that choice of words ).

And by the way , while engaging in this type of operation , even 6 years old boy , that can bearly hold a gun in his hand , can still shoot SPECOPS trained soldiers brains out , and kill some good hostage number on the way ... That is the fact , that happened , and there are so many point in SPEC operations that can go wrong , each one is deadly .

About the Special operations , in IDF there are several special operation that was as hard and problematic as Enthebbe raid , but never been mentioned , or acknowlaged , just because they were performed by regular forces , and not SF !

If you are talking about hostage resuce type of operation , i think the best are :

1)Enthebbe , offcorse .
2)Nimrod operation .
3)Nord Ost rescue , for several reason , even if the casualties list was pretty high .

Thank you

[Rantanplan]

Damn, thats a pretty old Thread.

[Red]

As long as you haven't trained with (or against) African troops, you can't judge Entebbe; flying the C130s was probably the most difficult part of the whole Op... I have seen african soldiers using 82mm mortars as an Air Defence Weapon ! they just don't have a clue.

That's why the IDF is so cocky; they've never fought an army from the developped part of the world; kicking african's asses is a pass time, not really an operation, not even a war.

Kolwezi was the same sort of set up; the 2 REP was flown in a few hours to the other side of Africa, dropped w/o air support in several waves against enemies that had had time to prepare fighting positions, which had armoured vehicles and more modern weapons (they had M16s, FAL, AKs, MG42 etc while the légionnaire were still using the old MAT 49 SMG and FSA 49/56 SLR).

They still destroy them, killing at least (conservative estimate) 163 for the loss of 5 KIAs....

Had they been fighting another type of army, the outcome would have been different.


Kolwezi, Zaire
19-20 May 1978
The 2nd French Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment (2 REP) is an elite unit par excellence, combining as it does the qualities of two elite corps: Foreign Legionnaires and paratroopers. As such, it was well equipped to deal with the crisis that occurred in Shaba Province in south Zaire (today the Democratic Republic of Congo) in May 1978.

The city of Kolwezi is on the Benguela Railway which links it to the port of Lobito, Angola, near Benguela. Kolwezi is the center of a major copper- and cobalt-mining area; uranium, radium, oxide ores, and lime deposits also occur. In the city are plants in which copper and cobalt ores are concentrated; the ores are then shipped by rail to Likasi, to the east, for processing. Kolwezi is also the trade center for the surrounding agricultural area.

Shaba Province, under the name of Katanga, had attempted to break away from the newly independent Congo in 1960. Though the breakaway movement had been defeated, relations between the province and the central government remained poor, and sporadic fighting continued. In 1978, the province was invaded by separatist rebels who took over the town of Kolwezi. Kolwezi was inhabited by over 3,000 Europeans, mainly mining experts and their families, who were regarded as potential hostages by Major Mufu and his 4,000 separatist Tigers'.

A drop of Zairean paratroopers into the town on 16 May was a fiasco. The Zairean leader, President Mobutu, had discussed the affair with his French counterpart to arrange foreign intervention if necessary; it was now very necessary.

Colonel Philippe Erulin's 2 REP was put on standby. The first elements to leave were 1, 2 and 3 Companies, and part of the HQ Company, in five DC-8 aircraft on the night of 17/18 May. The Support and 4 Company would follow later. Flying to Kinshasa, the Legionnaires were packed into four C-130s and one Transall aircraft for the drop: 500 paras in very cramped conditions.


It was broad daylight when the paras landed near Kolwezi, but fortunately the Tigers were caught off guard. A command post was quickly established and the men began to regroup. Even before all the paras had landed, the first groups fanned out and advanced to their objectives. Although the Tigers outnumbered the paras, their discipline and morale had crumbled. Resistance did stiffen, but nothing could halt the ruthless momentum of the attack. As Legionnaires cleared large parts of the town, white settlers began to emerge from cover, most of them hungry, thirsty, and suffering from shock. Tragically, those held in the Impala Hotel were killed before the Legionnaires reached them.

Within two hours of the initial jump, the Legionnaires were in almost complete control of the town. A second wave of aircraft carrying 4 Company, Support Company and the rest of HQ Company was ordered by Colonel Erulin to fly on to Lubumbashi to avoid a night drop. Meanwhile on the ground the Legionnaires continued to patrol and engage the enemy, killing many Tigers and suffering only six casualties.

The second wave dropped in during the early hours of 20 May, but there was little overall fighting until the afternoon, when 4 Company ran into heavy resistance near Metal Shaba. The Tigers mounted an attack, but were stopped by Support Company's 81mm mortars and 89mm anti-tank rockets. The Tigers fled, leaving 80 dead. This was the last major action at Kolwezi, the paras then conducted mopping-up operations. For the men of 2 REP, the operation confirmed their status as elite soldiers.



from:http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/Kolwezi.htm

The Marignane GIGN operation was a very successful Op; no hostage killed, the 4 terrorists dead against 9 GIGN members WIA.
i think you are the one who doesn't have a clue.When i was in the Nigerian Army,we never used mortars as air defense weapons so please get your facts straight.Are you talking about the Army of uganda?if so please make it clear,but dont lump all African millitary organizations into one box.Thank you

[UoUo]

And i personaly think that Egept Jordan and Syria togther can defeat without a dout the france army.

[Haiw]

A dive team from the first team was successful in destroying the ship, despite the fact that Noriega's men were using grenades as depth charges against them. The second team was successful in infiltrating the airport where the plane was kept, but were engaged by Noriega's men who had set up defensive positions inside the planes hanger. The SEALs were caught on open ground with no cover, but still managed to disable the jet and neutralize Noriega's men. Four SEALs were killed and eight were wounded in that operation.
4 KIA and 8 WIA doesn't sound much like the 'most succesfull SOF operation' to me...

[fantassin]

By the way , what grear army fought and totally lost in Indo-China during 50's


errr....the US Army....???

Oh no, that was in the 60s and 70s....

Give me a break about the Jordanian; if it's the best you can offer, that still is not a developped army by any Western standards.Chieftain tanks, F5 Freedom fighters and Ratel IFVs, woaw, that's world class...

And 5 arabian armies that remove their shoes to run faster in the desert against the only westernized army with unlimited US support of the area are still no match.

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all.

[fantassin]

Nigerian Army,


rofl rofl rofl rofl


Ever heard of the Nigerian army in Sierra leone? ever heard a British soldier talking about the Nigerian Army?

[UoUo]

You are stupaid....simple as that.


In 67 we almost don't use a US made system....

And the arabs used the state of art of the USSR.
You know what ? whatever....

We need to learn from you...like how to surnder to a country with out a War.

[IDFM203]

Boy I know I have truly seen it all when there can be a French person (with their military record rofl ) trying to diminish the IDF achievements.

Oh well, I guess anything can happen on the Internet. Even something as ridicules as this :roll:



And 5 arabian armies that remove their shoes to run faster in the desert against the only westernized army with unlimited US support of the area are still no match. . ahh?? unlimited??? :roll:

First in 1948, Israel had almost nothing and no support from anyone and yet defeated 7 invading armies.

In 1967, it had almost no arms from the U.S. and the French and British arms that it had were not at all superior to what the Arabs had.

You can scuff all you want, but defeating time and time again militaries with the most advanced and unlimited soviet and French arms with their huge numeric advantage of around 15 to 1 is all the proof that is needed to debunk your weak attempts to belittle the IDF accomplishments.



P.S. to get back to what this thread is all about, while this is not on the level of Entebbe, which is the most successful SF operation in the 20th Century,this operation here I think deserves some mention as well and somehow I think YOU might find it very interesting as well. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6481) ;)

Shalom :D

[Red]

Nigerian Army,


rofl rofl rofl rofl


Ever heard of the Nigerian army in Sierra leone? ever heard a British soldier talking about the Nigerian Army?
And what seems to be amusing you if i may ask?Oh because i was in the Nigerian Army.Hmmm,your recognizable stupidity makes me laugh.If you have something you want to say about the "Nigerian Army"why dont you just say it.Were we not good enough?or we were very unprofessional?Whatever you have to say,shove it way up your ass and puke it out cause i dont care.Yes,we may not be up to standard with the British and the Americans,But at least i served my country and i will always take pride in that.Now STFU and kill yourself. :fork:

[fantassin]

the French ministerial committee assigned to examine all French arms exports must have contained at least one, if not several, people who were sympathetic to Israel and were willing to help her get the missile boats. This would seem to be so because the cover story Israel used seemed highly improbable

Two men came to watch the last boats leave Cherbourg. One was Mordecai Limon. The other was Felix Amiot, the French supervisor of the construction of the ships at Cherbourg. He had concealed it, but he had known about the Israeli operation from the beginning.


The citizens of Cherbourg continued to keep quiet about the whole affair. And their silence - which the French government was well aware of - was a boon to Israel, for without it she may never have gotten the boats of Cherbourg.


Enough said?

Let's not confuse SOF and international politics.

and once again,

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all.

[fantassin]

Some interesting reading about the Nigerian army at war.

"Once a Pilgrim" by Will Scully, the story of an ex 22 SAS member who was in Sierra Leone in 1997; it makes for very interesting read about the fighting prowesses of the Nigerian army.

Here is the review from an Amazon.com reader;

An Outstanding True Story, May 28, 2002
Reviewer: A reader from Menlo Park, CA United States
This is an amazing story of an ex-SAS man who finds himself amidst civil war and civil disorder in Sierra Leone. As his story unfolds, you're caught up in an attack by rebels on a hotel holding frightened Westerners and guarded by incompetent Nigerian soldiers / peacekeepers. Will Scully takes on the defenders' task singlehandledly with precious little help from a perfidious US State Dept tieing up offshore US fleet hands. If this were a movie you would find it preposterous but the story is true.

Knowing what we know now about the carnage in Sierra Leone, after you read this, you a) imagine yourself as one of the frightened Westerners in the hotel under siege and b) amazed and astounded at what Will Scully accomplished in saving you from being butchered.

I bought my copy from Amazon UK and it was passed around to at least 20 35-45 year old professional males all of whom declaimed that this was one of the best "adventure" books they had ever read.

[UoUo]

I don't think our army is the best in the world...
But our army better then yours.

[S'13]

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all.

Did the French army ever face a Western army since WW2 (which wasn't a great success story for the French)?

[S'13]

By the way , what grear army fought and totally lost in Indo-China during 50's


errr....the US Army....???

Oh no, that was in the 60s and 70s....

It looks as though you don't know the history of your own country, not that it surprises me :roll:

The First Indochina War was when France tried to regain its colonies after the Japanese occupation, but the Viet Minh, used to combat japanese troops, rebelled against them. The French made their last stand at Dien Bien Phu where they where defeated with devastating losses.

After the war the Geneva Conference on July 21, 1954 make a provisional division of Vietnam at the 17th parallel with the north (see North Vietnam) being given to the Viet Minh under Ho Chi Minh and the south becoming the Republic of Vietnam under President Ngo Dinh Diem.


The Battle of Dien Bien Phu (Ðiện Biên Phủ) occurred in 1954 between Viet Minh forces under Vo Nguyen Giap and French airborne and Foreign Legion forces. The battle was fought near the village of Dien Bien Phu in northern Vietnam and became the last battle in the Indochina War which had begun in 1947.

Background
In 1953 the French had started the process of strengthening its defenses in the Hanoi delta region and were generally preparing for a series of offenses against the Viet Minh staging areas in north-west Vietnam. They had also set up a number of fortifed towns and outposts in the area, including Lai-Chau near the Chinese border to the north, Na San to the west of Hanoi, and Luang-Prabang and Plaine de Jarres in northern Laos.

That spring General Giap launched a major offensive against Na San. After several days of fierce fighting, the Viet Minh were broken, leaving 1,544 casualties at the base, and another 1,932 walking wounded. He withdrew the majority of his forces but left small numbers to hamper any attempt at a French withdrawal. Nevertheless Navarre successfully withdrew the forces from Nan Sanh soon after his arrival in May.

It was at this point that the French started thinking about Dien Bien Phu. In pitched battles the superior firepower of the French forces invariably won out, but the Viet Minh generally avoided such battles in the past. With their size growing and a general need to be involved in some action, it appeared that the war would be entering a new phase. If a smaller hastilly prepared base like Na San could do so much damage in a pitched battle, it seemed that a well-planned one could bring them to task.

Several sites were studied, but Dien Bien Phu always rose to the top. It lies in a bowl-shaped valley with a flat enough bottom for a major airbase, was near or on several major roads, and was surrounded by easily defendable hills. By taking the hills the valley would be secure, and could be used as a major air-supply route.

All the advantages were equal disadvantages for the Viet Minh. A number of their troop concentrations were on the far side of the valley, supplied over the roads they would now cut. These forces would be forced to either move east over considerably roughter terrain, or attempt to open the roads with an attack on the base itself. The French hoped for the later. In addition the same terrain should prevent the movement of the Viet Minh's Chinese supplied artillery into the area.

On the downside, Dien Bien Phu was far enough from Saigon that if a major fight did break out, the French air transport units would be very hard pressed to keep up with demands. Although they believed they were barely able to make it "work", yet no steps were taken to improve this vital part of the operation.


Operation Castor
In late 1953, as both sides prepared for peace talks, the French decided to strengthen their hand at the table with one major victory, and started the process of taking Dien Bien Phu.

Operations at Dien Bien Phu started on the morning of November 20th, 1953, when Operation Castor dropped for flew-in 9,000 troops into the area over three days. These troops set about building a huge airbase in the valley with two airstrips while others set out to capture all of the eight hills surrounding the valley and fortifying them, each named for a woman. By early 1954 the troop count had risen to 13,000, including a number of artillery units, and several light tanks.

The Viet Minh were too spread out to interfere with these preparations, and there was some concern that they were going to ignore the base and move east.


The Battle
Things changed in early March 1954, when it became clear that an increasing number of Viet Minh troops were moving into the area. The battle proper opened on March 13th, when much to the surprise of the French, it started with a massive artillery barrage. By the end of the first night 9,000 shells had fallen on the area and the Beatrice and Gabrielle positions had both fallen, albiet at huge cost to the attackers.

The French responded by parachuting in reinforcements, but they were fired on by anti-aircraft guns, another surprise the Viet Minh had in store for them. Considering the vital need for air supply, this was a troubling development. The French also started using their fighter bombers against the artillery, but there were nowhere near enough to have any real effect considering how well they were hidden.

Realizing the importance of the air supply, the Viet Minh switched from their costly assaults to a siege mode, bombarding the airfields until both were eventually knocked out of action. In addition they started the process of digging long trenches towards the middle of the camp, covering their movements from direct fire, and allowing for a buildup and assault under cover. The first runway fell after a five day advance from March 18th to 23rd. The last aircraft landed on the 28th on the second runway, but was destroyed in the process. The French responded with an offensive of their own on the 28th, attacking anti-aircraft positions. On the 31st the French recaptured two of the hilltop fortifications, but later had to evacuate them because of lack of reinforcements.

With resupply now entirely by parachute, supply flow started to dwindle. The Vietnamese had essentially won the battle at this point, and referred to the remainder of the battle as "slowly bleeding the dying elephant". During the last week of April the yearly monsoon arrived, further reducing the effectiveness of any air support that could be given. Trenches became hazards and bunkers collapsed. The last replacements, 4,306 soldiers, parachuted in between March 14 and May 6 did not even make up for the loses suffered between those dates, 5,500.

The French saw that defeat was imminent, but they sought to hold on till the Geneva peace meeting, which took place April 26. The last French offensive took place on May 4, but was ineffective. The Viet Minh then began to hammer the fort with newly acquired Russian rocket artillery. The final fall took two days, May 6th and 7th the French fight on but are eventually overrun by a huge frontal assault.

At least 2,200 members of 20,000-strong French forces died during the battle. Of the 50,000 or so Vietnamese involved there were an estimated 8,000 killed and another 15,000 wounded, almost half of the attacking force.


After the Battle
The prisoners taken at Dien Bien Phu were the greatest number the Viet Minh had ever captured, 1/3rd of the total captured during the entire war. The prisoners were divided into groups. Fit and walking wounded were force marched over 250 miles to prison camps, hundreds dying of disease on the way. The wounded, counted at 4,436, were given basic triage until the Red Cross arrived and removed 838 and gave better aid to the reaminder. The remainer were then also sent into detention.

Prison camp was even worse. The French troops, many of them not even French, were constantly starved, beaten and heaped with abuse. Many died.


Aftermath
The victory by the Viet Minh led to the 1954 Geneva accords, which partitioned Vietnam into a communist Northern and pro-Western South Vietnamese governments. This partition was supposed to be temporary, and the two sides were supposed to be reunited by national elections in 1956. The USA supported the southern government under Ngo Dinh Diem which opposed the agreement, surmising that Ho Chi Minh from the North would win those elections - even though the southern government was created under the terms of that agreement. Thus the competition for the whole of Vietnam began, and would escalate into the Vietnam War.

General Giap would attempt to recreate the victory at Dien Bien Phu in 1967 at Khe Sanh, but in this case the massively improved US air supply and support turned the tables.

[fantassin]

in Khe san in 1967

Great sources, Khe san was in 1968.

[S'13]

in Khe san in 1967

Great sources, Khe san was in 1968.

So that mistake with the date makes everything that was writing above irrelevant? :roll:
I hope you will at least agree that the French campaign in Indo-China ended with a defeat...

[Javehn]

Listen , pal , the fact that you don't know your own history , and yet continue to write nonsence , and insult 2 fighting armies in the world by the way , that's not giving you any honor . Advice to you , some refrase from another policy : Don' know , don't tell . Please .

[fantassin]

Nobody ever said the contrary, it was a defeat, just like the americans 20 years latter.

But unlike the Israeli-Anglo-French attack against the egyptian in 1956 that was a complete military victory, if not a political one thanks to the russians and americans.

Dig up the writings of Feld marshall Kesselring, overall german commander in Italy from 1943 to 1945 and you'll see which allied army he rated the most among those he was facing then; you'll be surprised to see it's the french expeditionary corps.

French bashing is just like antisemitism; you assume the french are bad just like some people assume the jews are bad. it's stupid but since french bashing is not considered racist, unlike antisemitism or anti black or anti any other races remarks, every stupid acne faced moron around the globe who wants to be seen in a good light by Uncle Sam joins the bandwagon.

BTW, be very afraid for the US SF in Afghanistan; for some bizarre reason, the US SF force commander in Afghanistan has a French navy SF officier as deputy now. Wonder why he has taken an officer from France as a deputy while he has litteraly dozens of countries to choose from, countries that would be so pleased to lap up to the americans if given half the chance.

Maybe the french forces aren't so crappy after all.

[morlick]

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all.

Did the French army ever face a Western army since WW2 (which wasn't a great success story for the French)?

Did israelis fight again a western army?, never. They only fight against kids with rocks.

[S'13]

Nobody ever said the contrary, it was a defeat, just like the americans 20 years latter.

Ok we agree on that...

But unlike the Israeli-Anglo-French attack against the egyptian in 1956 that was a complete military victory, if not a political one thanks to the russians and americans.

I think that in the Suez Campaign (Kadesh Operation) Israel was the only country of the three to get anything out of that operation: The opening of the Tiran straits to Israeli shiping.

French bashing is just like antisemitism; you assume the french are bad just like some people assume the jews are bad. it's stupid but since french bashing is not considered racist, unlike antisemitism or anti black or anti any other races remarks, every stupid acne faced moron around the globe who wants to be seen in a good light by Uncle Sam joins the bandwagon.

Up until now I didn't write a single thing against the French army and I didn't plan to do so. Your condescending remarks regarding the IDF simply made me resopnd in turn.

[S'13]

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all.

Did the French army ever face a Western army since WW2 (which wasn't a great success story for the French)?

Did israelis fight again a western army?, never. They only fight against kids with rocks.

It's best that you go to the nearby library and read a history book before you plan to talk about things you know nothing about.

[Javehn]

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all.

Did the French army ever face a Western army since WW2 (which wasn't a great success story for the French)?

Did israelis fight again a western army?, never. They only fight against kids with rocks.

It's best that you go to the nearby library and read a history book before you plan to talk about things you know nothing about.

Or at list have a desency to watch thread about Palestine-Israel , and to see what "rocks" they got . No one bashing France , but just watch what you are writting , or you get it in return , please . Again , if you don't know , don't write it .

[IDFM203]

the French ministerial committee assigned to examine all French arms exports must have contained at least one, if not several, people who were sympathetic to Israel and were willing to help her get the missile boats. This would seem to be so because the cover story Israel used seemed highly improbable

Two men came to watch the last boats leave Cherbourg. One was Mordecai Limon. The other was Felix Amiot, the French supervisor of the construction of the ships at Cherbourg. He had concealed it, but he had known about the Israeli operation from the beginning.


The citizens of Cherbourg continued to keep quiet about the whole affair. And their silence - which the French government was well aware of - was a boon to Israel, for without it she may never have gotten the boats of Cherbourg.


Enough said?

Let's not confuse SOF and international politics.

and once again, hehe yeah I actually thought you might do that ;) ..oh well

You see the article that I linked was the only one I could find on the net, and that is a problem for it was a lot more then those alleged conciliatory words.

It was a huge mossad operation that took months and involved much more cunning and skill then those mere few quotes.

But anyways……….

But if you think the IDF is the best army in the world, feel free, I don't mind; they just never have fought against a Western army, that's all. ok so you have repeated this twice.

Listen its not about best in the world or not......the IDF record in war speaks for itself!!

I mean I don’t know how fighting against 5 or 7 armies at a time equipped with the most advanced soviet and French weapons and defeating them time and time again (especially the first two wars, where besides the huge numeric disadvantage that Israel had. it also had a technological disadvantage as well), should be negated because Israel didn’t fight against any western nation as if it had to fight one of them on a one to one bases, excluding the U.S. it wouldn’t be able to win :roll:

Oh and again, its amusing seeing a French man trying to diminish the IDF accomplishments when their example of fighting has been less then any example let alone any western example on how to fight!!

But hey since you keep on bringing this best comment, instead of me making the case for now,I think you might like this site, especially as it pertains to SF, as what this thread is about (http://www.frenchforeignlegion.org/database/data/dta057.html) ;)

French bashing is just like antisemitism; If you go back you’ll see that it is us Israelis responding to your remarks and that is not French bashing but rather just responding in kind!!

Like S13 said, and the same applies to me, Up until now I didn't write a single thing against the French army and I didn't plan to do so. Your condescending remarks regarding the IDF simply made me respond in turn.

Hell in fact the other day I was writing and asking about French and Israeli cooperation (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7677).

Hardly French bashing at all :roll:





Did israelis fight again a western army?, never. They only fight against kids with rocks. yeah those five all out wars, the Arabs never had any soviet or French equipment, they only fought with rocks……..boy that explains how Israel won so easily :roll:

Oh and with the Palestinian’s and the past three years, yeah me and javhen actually fought in this war, and those constant shootings (when I was in, it was on a nightly bases) and mortar attacks and RPG’s and kassam rockets and homicide bombers sure all looked like rocks :roll:

Shalom :D

[fantassin]

Yes, sorry, we are very bad and you are the best in the world. And always right and very brave

Oh, and we are arrogant too, I forgot about this one.

And like the Swedes we've lost every war we took part in and have no history.

[S'13]

Yes, sorry, we are very bad and you are the best in the world. And always right and very brave

Oh, and we are arrogant too, I forgot about this one.

And like the Swedes we've lost every war we took part in and have no history.

Fantassin, if you have nothing to write, don't write at all. It's far more better then writing like a hurt child in primary school...

[IDFM203]

Yes, sorry, we are very bad and you are the best in the world. And always right and very brave

Oh, and we are arrogant too, I forgot about this one.

And like the Swedes we've lost every war we took part in and have no history.ahh yes and now the emotional condescending, sarcastic remark instead of replying with any substance :roll: …yeah pretty typical already :roll:

Again, this is not about best or worst or who’s bad or whose brave.

(I mean I never said we are the best in the world, it is only you that said that, well thanks for the compliment :D , though I must admit that here too you got it wrong for we are not the best in the world nor did we ever claim that we were (though for SF specifically and not in everything in general as your insinuating, perhaps I will make that claim ;) I mean hell even your own FFL says that :D )……but hey I cant stop you from thinking that ;) )


Lets not forget that it was YOU that initiated your condescending and false remarks on the IDF and all I did was respond to it.

But hey I guess you seem to have conveniently forgotten that fact and instead resorted to your childish post :roll:

Shalom :D

[Red]

Some interesting reading about the Nigerian army at war.

"Once a Pilgrim" by Will Scully, the story of an ex 22 SAS member who was in Sierra Leone in 1997; it makes for very interesting read about the fighting prowesses of the Nigerian army.

Here is the review from an Amazon.com reader;

An Outstanding True Story, May 28, 2002
Reviewer: A reader from Menlo Park, CA United States
This is an amazing story of an ex-SAS man who finds himself amidst civil war and civil disorder in Sierra Leone. As his story unfolds, you're caught up in an attack by rebels on a hotel holding frightened Westerners and guarded by incompetent Nigerian soldiers / peacekeepers. Will Scully takes on the defenders' task singlehandledly with precious little help from a perfidious US State Dept tieing up offshore US fleet hands. If this were a movie you would find it preposterous but the story is true.

Knowing what we know now about the carnage in Sierra Leone, after you read this, you a) imagine yourself as one of the frightened Westerners in the hotel under siege and b) amazed and astounded at what Will Scully accomplished in saving you from being butchered.

I bought my copy from Amazon UK and it was passed around to at least 20 35-45 year old professional males all of whom declaimed that this was one of the best "adventure" books they had ever read.


well for your information,i was there and i lost some freinds of mine in that country.So let me say that i think that you are a BASTARD for spiting on the graves of those dead soldiers by trying to insinuate that they were incompetent.Second,you were not there,you got your information from a damn book.nuff said.Third,check your facts,the main force that did the fighting that led to the pushing back of the rebels was the Nigerian Army.Yes the british commandoes played a pivotal role but still we did our part.And let me say this again,you are a SON OF A BITCH for insulting the dead.Thank you.This is all i am going to say on this topic.

[fantassin]

You are welcome.

Now read this, you'll love it.

But mind your heart, you seem to be quite nervous.


Sierra Leone peace force accused of sabotage


Special report: Sierra Leone

Chris McGreal in Freetown Chris McGreal in Freetown
Saturday September 9, 2000

The Guardian

The United Nations force commander in Sierra Leone has accused Nigerian political and military officials at the top of the UN mission in Freetown of "working hard to sabotage the peace process", and the Nigerian army command of looting diamonds in league with the now imprisoned rebel leader, Foday Sankoh. In a devastating four-page confidential report obtained by the Guardian, Major-General Vijay Jetley paints a picture of a conspiracy to force him out as the UN commander in Sierra Leone.

The public airing of bitter differences within the UN operation in Freetown comes at a particularly sensitive time as world leaders pledge to overhaul peacekeeping in Africa after a decade of humiliating failures in Angola, Somalia, Rwanda and Sierra Leone. With 7,000 more UN troops destined for Freetown, Gen Jetley's report will force the Security Council to confront issues beyond the numbers of peacekeepers and their mandate, and to consider whether the whole operation is a further threat to stability in west Africa.

The memorandum, called Report on the crisis in Sierra Leone, was written during the upheaval in May that prompted British intervention to prevent the rebel Revolutionary United Front from seizing power. Gen Jetley never officially submitted the document to the UN but it has been widely circulated among members of the Security Council and other major players in Sierra Leone. Its damning criticism of the Nigerians, and its exposure of the deep divisions that have all but paralysed the UN mission, has added pressure for a major shakeup of a discredited peacekeeping force that Britain is counting on to play a leading role in the defeat of the RUF.

Gen Jetley singles out three Nigerians for particular criticism: Kofi Annan's special representative in Freetown, under-secretary-general Oluyemi Adeniji; the former head of Ecomog, the west African intervention force in Sierra Leone which worked with the UN for six months, Major General Gabriel Kpamber; and the deputy force commander, Brigadier-General Mohammed Garba, who is Gen Jetley's immediate subordinate. The report lays bare the personal animosity between Gen Jetley and the men he accuses, but it goes further by detailing a series of actions that he says amount to collusion with the rebels to wreck last year's peace accords because Nigeria wants a free hand to run Sierra Leone and its army wants to control the diamond trade. At the heart of the accusations lie charges that the Nigerians compromised Gen Jetley's efforts to free 500 of his peacekeepers taken hostage by the RUF in May.
"The mission directive given to me and which I tried to follow implicitly, directly conflicted with the interests of not only the warring factions but also of the major players in the diamond racket like Liberia and Nigeria.

"As an Indian, and having no hidden agenda to promote, I became a victim of the machinations of these countries. By placing their stooges in the right places they have not only tried to scuttle the peace process but also try and denigrate me and the country I represent, to promote their own personal ambitions and personal interests.

"It is my opinion that the Ecomog force commander along with the SRSG [Mr Adeniji] and DFC [Gen Garba] have worked hard to sabotage the peace process and show Indians in general and me in particular in a poor light... Keeping the Nigerian interests was paramount even if it meant scuttling the peace process and this also implied that Unamsil [the UN force] was expendable.

"To this end the SRSG and DFC cultivated the RUF leadership especially Foday Sankoh behind my back."

But the report came as no surprise to western and senior UN officials who say that there is ample evidence that the Nigerian army remains heavily implicated in the illegal diamond trade, that its senior officers worked closely with the RUF despite having also fought it, and that the Nigerians believe that, as the largest troop contingent in the UN mission, they should have overall command.

Gen Jetley argues that senior Nigerian army officers - particularly Gen Kpamber and Brigadier-General Maxwell Khobe, who died earlier this year - did not want to withdraw from Sierra Leone because they were making huge amounts of money from illegal diamond mining and payments from the RUF.

"It is well known that public opinion in Nigeria was against the continued deployment of Nigerian troops as part of Ecomog in Sierra Leone, however the Nigerian army was interested in staying in Sierra Leone due to the benefits they were getting from the illegal mining. Gen Khobe was known as the 'Ten Million man', it is alleged that he received up to $10m to permit the activities of RUF. The Ecomog force commander Gen Kpamber was also involved in the illegal diamond mining in connivance with RUF leader Foday Sankoh," Gen Jetley wrote.

In January, Gen Kpamber astonished a meeting of regional heads of state on the peace process by praising Mr Sankoh as the "saviour of the nation". The two men were often seen in each other's company travelling to diamond towns from which the UN was barred. Sierra Leoneans referred to Gen Kpamber as "Sankoh's ADC".

Gen Jetley lists a series of actions by the Nigerian army which he concludes amounted to colluding in the abductions. He notes that while Kenyans, Zambians and Indians were taken captive, the rebels let the Nigerians go.

But the alleged relationship between Mr Sankoh and senior Nigerian officers and officials would explain why the rebel leader was trying to get to the Nigerian High Commission when he was captured. Gen Jetley blames low morale for the mass surrender of his troops.

[Red]

And did i tell you i was an officer or a political person?no,i was just a foot soldier.If you want to point out the short comings of something,i suggest that you do it in a more polite way.And please can you me if you have had any sort of military experience?have you been shot at before?i would like to know that.

[fantassin]

It's the pot calling the kettle black !!!!!

So let me say that i think that you are a BASTARD

then

And let me say this again,you are a SON OF A BITCH

then

your recognizable stupidity

shove it way up your ass and puke it out

and then you tell me

i suggest that you do it in a more polite way.

Is this a specific brand of Nigerian humour ? First you insult somebody who has never insulted you and then you ask him to be polite?

Anyway, it's quite entertaining; as for your question, yes, I have had all sorts of things fired or thrown at me, in Africa and elsewhere.

[Red]

Let me say this,i apologise for calling you those names,it was wrong of me to do that.I hope you can forgive me.I get really angry when people just talk absoulute smack about something they know nothing of.I will grant you this,Nigerian top officers and politicians are very corrupt but the average guy just wants to make it to the next day.The guys are good but the management sucked.In sierre leone,some Nigerian soldiers were given Bycicle helmets that were painted green as combat helmets,and i tell you 70% of the KIA's were head shots.I got out of the Nigerian Army and Nigeria as a whole because of the endemic corruption.I am presently a citizen of the USA(green card lottery)i am going to graduate college next year with a degree in Computer Science and hope to work for the US government.Why i am telling you all this is that as far as you read your information from news articles and books,you wont get the full picture.I was there i saw,and i survived.So dont base your assumptions on news articles,ask intelligent questions to those who have seen it.Thats just my opinion,have a nice day.

[fantassin]

Don't worry it's the same everywhere; look at Halliburton, a US company that was making huge profits selling over-priced fuel to its own army in Iraq; at least those were identified.

I have worked in Africa often enough to see how the fat cats corrupt everybody with their wads of notes in their pockets. I don't see why Nigeria should be different from the others unfortunately.

Have a nice day too.

[UoUo]

BTW : Syria isn't in africa...also jordan...

And can bet that Egept can kick france ass.

[Red]

Don't worry it's the same everywhere; look at Halliburton, a US company that was making huge profits selling over-priced fuel to its own army in Iraq; at least those were identified.

I have worked in Africa often enough to see how the fat cats corrupt everybody with their wads of notes in their pockets. I don't see why Nigeria should be different from the others unfortunately.

Have a nice day too.
Yes,the so called govt make huge sums of money and put the lives of the ordinary man at so much risk.Point in case,the old army issue rifle was the SLR and these SLR's i am talking about were old british hand-me-downs,in the mid 90's these were the rifles that were still being used despite their being old and useless but the refused to buy new rifles.Now some units which were tought to be "elite" were issued G3's but the Army brass made a huge profit on their purchase by overstating the prices.I hate the govt of my country and wish that i could o something to change it.Sometimes i feel ashamed when talking to memebers of other advanced militaries because you feel so inferior and you are always on the defensive.I am part of a country that i think is very professional and i am so happy that the US opened its gates to me because Nigreia is a "**** hole" and untill the govt changes,it will remain that in my view.Thank you for your understanding.

[fantassin]

And can bet that Egept can kick france ass.

Of course, everybody can; don't you know it is the land of white flag waving, antisemitic, arab loving surrender monkeys?

[UoUo]

And can bet that Egept can kick france ass.

Of course, everybody can; don't you know it is the land of white flag waving, antisemitic, arab loving surrender monkeys?

Hm....except of my family there....

[fantassin]

Hm....except of my family there....

No sorry, that's what they said on Fox News so it HAS to be true...

[Kaos]

Dieppe raid

[S'13]

Dieppe raid

Wasn't the Dieppe raid considered a military disaster?

[Kaos]

You're right in a certain way (Human losses), but the main aim, to destroy the main form in an Atlantic port able to receive and repair the Tirpitz, was achieved in a spectacular way.
But I just see that I've made an awful mistake, as I've said Dieppe raid, but was thinking instead about St Nazaire raid...
:oops:
Some good reading about it

there (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=S2318&ser=CAM)
Again, sorry for my mistake.
;)

[S'13]

I almost forgot about this one...

The Israeli Commando Assault on Green Island
By Doron Geller

During the War of Attrition beginning in 1969, the declared Egyptian intention was to wear Israel down by constant, small-scale attacks on Israeli positions along the Suez Canal. On July 10, 1969, Egyptian commandos made their way across the Suez Canal in dinghies and mounted a bloody attack on the Israeli position at Mezach on the East Bank of the Suez Canal. Seven Israelis were killed and five were wounded, and others were taken back to Egypt as prisoners.

Many of the Israeli soldiers serving along the Canal were reservists, concerned about their wives, children and jobs in Israel. They just wanted to be able to get home safely. Morale nose-dived. The Egyptian raid merited a sharp response.

The IDF gave the responsibility of retaliation to Flotilla 13 (Shayetet 13), an elite unit of Israeli naval commandos. The "'IDF General Staff demanded…a response that would strike at the soul of Egyptian morale as the assault on Mezach had caused Israeli servicemen posted along the canal to be engulfed by fear and apprehension." The Israelis decided that Egypt's most fortified position in the Suez Canal zone - Green Island - would have to be assaulted.

Green Island was a "piece of protruding stone and concrete" and the Egyptians considered it an "impregnable fortress and symbol of Egyptian military prowess", and it was there that the Egyptians felt safest.

Green Island was located at the southern end of the Suez Canal. It was "built by the British during the Second World War to protect its ultrastrategic waterway from air and sea attack by Axis forces." It was a large and imposing facility that measured more than 450 feet long and more than 240 feet wide. It was built on "a bed of stable corals and made out of reinforced concrete…" which consisted of a "one-storey building with a large courtyard. At the end of the island, a concrete bridge jutted out into the water toward a circular five-meter high tower supporting a radar site and two heavy anti-aircraft machine guns." A wall reinforced with thick rows of barbed wire was built at the water's edge, meant to deter "any intruder attacking by sea." In the roof heavy machine guns were emplaced, and there were over a dozen machine gun nests. Israeli Intelligence estimated that there were about 100 Egyptian soldiers stationed on the island, including the elite as-Saiqa commandos. It was a formidable defensive position with a dominating command of the surrounding waters.

The obvious nature of Green Island as a target for Israeli commandos was not lost on the Israelis themselves. In April 1969, several months before the Egyptian attack on the Israeli [position at Mezach on the East Bank of the Suez Canal, a four-man Israeli reconnaissance team had scouted out Green Island.

Shmuel Almog, the Flotilla 13 commander who would be leading the operation, felt that 40 men would be needed to assault the island. But Flotilla 13 had only 30 men, mainly due to Almog's extraordinarily demanding training standards. More men from other units would have to be called in, and they were - from Sayeret Matkal, another elite commando unit. This unit was commanded by Menachem Digli. Brigadier-General Rafael Eitan, today one of the most famed Israeli generals second perhaps only to Ariel Sharon, was then the "chief paratroop and infantry officer responsible for all commando strikes." He gave Almog only one week "to draw up his plans…train his men, and execute the operation."

Shmuel Almog had reconnoitered the area several times himself, and he knew that there was only one way Green Island could be approached - and that was underwater. Any above-water approach was doomed to fail, as the Egyptians had carefully covered all approaches to the island, and they were well-entrenched.

One possibility that was not raised in the literature I looked at for this operation was the option of bombing Green Island from the air and thus putting Green island off the map. But this was the War of Attrition, not an open war, and evidently Israel did not want to escalate the situation to one more serious than it already was. In addition, the Egyptians had proven themselves to be dangerous foes by their naval commando raid on Mezach. The Israelis wanted to show that their own commandos would go one better, and that their combined naval/land operations were deadly and could strike fear and demoralization into the Egyptians even more than the Egyptians had caused the Israelis along the canal.

The commandos would not be able to swim to their targets either - the shadows and slight ripples in the sea might give them away. The only option for the first wave of the assault, which would be led by Flotilla 13, would be to swim underwater at a depth safe enough to avoid detection for several hours - all the while equipped with heavy weaponry and ammunition. They would then emerge "literally under the noses of the Egyptians at the base of their target." As Shmuel Katz writes: "The violent transformation from stealth intruder to heavily armed attacker would have to be fantastic."

The Sayeret Matkal men were not trained for underwater operations, so they would have to remain safely away from the target until the Flotilla 13 unit had arrived on the beach. Only when the Flotilla 13 unit had secured the beachhead would the Sayeret Matkal, moored 1500 meters away, be called in. In that period, the 20-30 Flotilla 13 commandos would be alone against the Egyptian force in the imposing fortress. And in that period, they would have to cut a passage through the 3-layer barbed wire defenses for the Sayeret Matkal force which would come after them.

The naval commandos had to hope, too, that their weapons, ammunition, grenades, and other equipment would be operational once they emerged from the depths. Most of them decided to carry an AK-47 rather than the Israeli-made Uzi, in that the AK-47 was known to work better after having been submerged under water.

Training was intense. Intelligence gathering went on apace as well, with small units going out to the outskirts of Green Island to check out Egyptian defenses. They found that the Egyptians were at a high level of alert. "Sentries, carrying AK-47's and flashlights, combed the waters in search of Israeli frogmen."

The night before the task force headed out to Green Island, they trained and reviewed their roles. They made sure, as best they could, "that every single inch of Green Island was etched in the back of their minds as unforgettable fact." Nerves were on razor's edge.

The Flotilla 13 unit left its base on the East Bank of the Suez Canal at 7:45 p.m. on July19. Each commando was equipped with his personal weapon, ammunition reserves, grenades, first-aid equipment, canteen and a flashlight, flippers, oxygen tanks, mask and life preserver.

At 8:30 p.m. the Sayeret Matkal back-up force set out in 12 rubber and motorized dinghies (called Zodiacs). By 10:30 they were 1 mile from Green Island.

By 1:30 a.m. the naval commandos still hadn't reached their target. They were still swimming at a brisk pace towards the island. They still, however, had the element of surprise.

At 15 meters from the island the flotilla leader noticed two armed Egyptian sentries. He ordered his men underwater again and told them to remove their diving gear.

Five minutes later, with their equipment safely taken care of, twenty figures emerged from the water and pointed their AK-47's and Uzis at the sentries. While some of the commandos began cutting through the barbed wire, an Egyptian sentry began walking towards them. An Israeli commando dropped him, which alarmed another Egyptian soldier, who lobbed a grenade at them.

Three Israelis were wounded and the island was engulfed in battle. As the Egyptians raced out of their barracks the Israeli commandos began cutting them down at close quarters. They hurled smoke grenades at the Egyptian machine-gun nests to temporarily block their vision.

When the Israeli commandos set out for Green Island there was concern about the functioning of their weapons and ammunition after having been submerged underwater for several hours. These were well-founded concerns. Much of their weaponry and ammunition was not operable. Even a squad leader's radio did not work.

The Sayeret Matkal was supposed to advance with the first rounds of fire from the Flotilla 13 naval unit, but the Sayeret Matkal did not come as planned. Without waiting the naval commandos raced forward. Some of them ascended the wall and fired what weapons and lobbed what grenades worked. Many Israeli commandos were wounded but advanced in spite of that. As they did not know if the back-up force of Sayeret Matkal were going to get there in time or not, the commandos on shore were attacking Egyptian bunkers "reserved for the Sayeret." The Egyptians defended their positions staunchly after the surprise of the attack wore off. A number of Israeli commandos were killed in the assault. The Egyptians refused to surrender, holding their positions until they were wiped out.

After only 17 minutes, the 20-man Flotilla 13 unit had taken over much of the island. It was only then that the Sayeret Matkal unit arrived on the island. About half of the naval commandos were already wounded - including First Lieutenant Ami Ayalon, who is now a leader in the Israeli Intelligence community. He received the Yellow Ribbon, the IDF's medal issued to soldiers "'who display the 'ultimate heroism against enemy fire…'" Only three IDF soldiers - including Ayalon - have received this medal. All have been from Flotilla 13.

The official version cites: "On the night of July 19-20, in the battle for Green Island, First Lieutenant Amichai 'Ami' Ayalon was the deputy commander of a band of operators in the assault. At the time of the attack, he tossed a grenade at the radar position, and during the assault moved ahead of his soldiers to lead the attack. When he climbed on the roof of one position, he suffered shrapnel wound to the forehead, but still managed to hurl a grenade, even though it failed to explode. Under heavy fire, he continued his advance along with First Sergeant Zalman Rot, and wiped out a machine gun nest. He later hooked up with another operator, and wiped out two more enemy positions. Leading the attack against a gun position, a grenade blast seriously wounded him…though he continued to fire his weapon at enemy positions; another enemy grenade detonated near him, this time wounding him in the hand and neck. Severely wounded and bleeding profusely, he managed to continue his attack and only after the mission was complete did he inform his superiors of his wounds and evacuate himself."

Ilan Egozi was another Flotilla 13 operator who was decorated for bravery for his part in the assault on Green Island. His citation recounted: "On the night of July 19-20, 1969, in the battle for Green Island, First Lieutenant Egozi was the commander of the squad responsible for breaking through the position's defenses. While cutting through the fence, he discovered Egyptian soldiers looking around the rooftop of their position, illuminating the area with their flashlights. Fearing discovery, he opened fire and ordered his men to attack." He was seriously wounded but continued to carry on the operation, and "was the last on the boat to evacuate his position."

Egozi, as a former POW in Egyptian hands was not supposed to have even been there at all. If he was captured, as a former POW attacking his former captors, according to the Geneva Convention the Egyptians did not have to guarantee his safety.

The Israeli force continued to assault the fortress. They controlled the upper section of the island, but they realized that to destroy the whole structure they would need to wipe out the "stiff resistance emanating from the courtyard below." They had to engage in room-to-room combat in order to that. "The system was simple and effective. Commandos would line up along the hallway, stand with their backs against the wall, and then toss a fragmentation grenade inside the enclosed space. What was not killed by the grenade's blast was terminated by the commandos spraying the smoking aftermath with dedicated blasts of machine-gun and automatic weapons fire."

Many of the Israeli commandos were wounded by then themselves, and some were killed. The Zodiac boats were filling up with wounded men. The soldiers in condition to battle continued to try to take over the island until an unexpected development occurred. "The Egyptians, realizing that Green Island was under attack and probably, considering past Israeli commando raids, overrun, ordered it shelled. Dozens of Egyptian artillery batteries on the West Bank of the Gulf of Suez let loose deadly bursts of 130 mm shells onto the island, and wounded Egyptian defenders. The shelling was an 'obvious' indication that it was time to get off the island quickly." While the shells first fell harmlessly into the sea, they soon increased in accuracy, until the shells began to fall on the island and near the Zodiacs as well.

At 2:15 on the morning of July 20, Shmuel Almog and Menachem Digli ordered the evacuation of their forces. The Israeli units had occupied 2/3 of the island. They eliminated remaining Egyptian forces and those who tried to escape. And while Egyptian units from the West Bank were shelling Green Island, three Israeli officers were preparing an explosive charge that would blow up Green Island to an extent that they would never have to return.

The Flotilla 13/Sayeret Matkal units evacuated the island. There were six dead and fourteen wounded. They were loaded first onto the boats and then the others got on themselves.

It was a difficult journey back to Israeli positions in Sinai as Egyptian shells sliced through the water dangerously close to the boat, and sometimes ripping them apart. Helicopters were called in to take out the wounded, and the Zodiac boats only made it back to the Sinai by dawn.

Green Island remained a highly classified operation for twenty-five years. The Israeli commandos wiped out about 80 of the Egyptian soldiers there, almost the entire garrison. "It put the entire Egyptian military on notice. Many positions, from the most secured radar and communications facilities embedded under hundreds of feet of rock and granite to Egyptian Army HQ in Cairo, could be assaulted and taken out." Egyptian units all along the canal "were heard firing into the night - shooting at shadows, shooting at what could be Israel's next Green Island."

The Flotilla 13 and Sayeret Matkal units were highly feted by the Israeli military brass. They were given many other chances to prove themselves, as the War of Attrition lasted throughout 1969 and into 1970. But none of the operations were as renowned for their daring and their success as the assault on Green Island - perhaps no other operations were until Flotilla 13 and the Sayeret Matkal participated in destroying PLO headquarters in Beirut in "Operation Spring of Youth" in 1973.

[morlick]

Israel only fight again third world country so i dont think that israelis are the best person to give military lessons to the rest of the world.

[Javehn]

Israel only fight again third world country so i dont think that israelis are the best person to give military lessons to the rest of the world.

HAHAhahahahahhhhahahahahhaahhahahaahhahahahaahahhahahaahhahahahahahahahaahhahaahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah


ahhahaHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAhaahhaahHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHAHHAahhahahahahahahAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHhahahhahahaahhahaHAHAAHHHAhahaha


I think that's it .... No there is more ...

.


HHAHAHAHAhahahahahahHAHAHHAHAhahahahahahaahHAHAHAAHHAHAhahahahahaHAAHHAHAHAAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHhaahhaAHAHHAHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhahahahahahaahhaahahhhahahahaahhahahahaahah

ahhhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Ough , man ... Such a strong words ...Something very strange going on this forum . Must be the new members

Man , that's not even funny allready , stop it ! That's rediciolous ! Just stick with off topic section , ok ;) ? Thank you guy .

[IDFM203]

Israel only fight again third world country so i dont think that israelis are the best person to give military lessons to the rest of the world. oh this again……. :roll:

Whether your right or not (which your not!!), what’s certain is that no French man with their military record rofl , should be telling people not to listen to advice coming from the IDF!!

Anyways again.............

The IDF record in war speaks for itself!!

I mean I don’t know how fighting against 5 or 7 armies at a time equipped with the most advanced soviet and French weapons and defeating them time and time again (especially the first two wars, where besides the huge numeric disadvantage that Israel had. it also had a technological disadvantage as well), should be negated because Israel didn’t fight against any western nation as if it had to fight one of them on a one to one bases, excluding the U.S. it wouldn’t be able to win :roll:

Oh and again, its amusing seeing a French man trying to diminish the IDF accomplishments when their example of fighting has been less then any example let alone any western example on how to fight!!

Oh and if you don’t believe me about the IDF, perhaps you’ll believe your own people (http://www.frenchforeignlegion.org/database/data/dta057.html) ;)

Shalom :D

[Armour recon]

Skorzeny's successful raid in Gran Sasso.

[Uninen]

Any of Finnish ww2 major long range patrol raids?

Fights lasting from 45min to 2 hours.. leaving hudreds/thousands (Record i think was 2000+ dead in 2h battle, with only small arms used..) Soviets shot dead and whole bases destroyed to the ground..

;)

[morlick]

Israel only fight again third world country so i dont think that israelis are the best person to give military lessons to the rest of the world. oh this again……. :roll:

Whether your right or not (which your not!!), what’s certain is that no French man with their military record rofl , should be telling people not to listen to advice coming from the IDF!!

Anyways again.............

The IDF record in war speaks for itself!!

I mean I don’t know how fighting against 5 or 7 armies at a time equipped with the most advanced soviet and French weapons and defeating them time and time again (especially the first two wars, where besides the huge numeric disadvantage that Israel had. it also had a technological disadvantage as well), should be negated because Israel didn’t fight against any western nation as if it had to fight one of them on a one to one bases, excluding the U.S. it wouldn’t be able to win :roll:

Oh and again, its amusing seeing a French man trying to diminish the IDF accomplishments when their example of fighting has been less then any example let alone any western example on how to fight!!

Oh and if you don’t believe me about the IDF, perhaps you’ll believe your own people (http://www.frenchforeignlegion.org/database/data/dta057.html) ;)

Shalom :D

I don't want to diminish IDF, i said only that Israel only fight against poor countrys. Egypt, jordan, Syria ... had perhaps good weapons but their soldiers had no a good training (look Iraqis against americans). did Israel fight against England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia, Netherlands, Austria....?
I'm sure that IDF is a good army for urbans combats...(for example) but dont said they are the best army because they beat the Egyptians.

[IDFM203]

Israel only fight again third world country so i dont think that israelis are the best person to give military lessons to the rest of the world. oh this again……. :roll:

Whether your right or not (which your not!!), what’s certain is that no French man with their military record rofl , should be telling people not to listen to advice coming from the IDF!!

Anyways again.............

The IDF record in war speaks for itself!!

I mean I don’t know how fighting against 5 or 7 armies at a time equipped with the most advanced soviet and French weapons and defeating them time and time again (especially the first two wars, where besides the huge numeric disadvantage that Israel had. it also had a technological disadvantage as well), should be negated because Israel didn’t fight against any western nation as if it had to fight one of them on a one to one bases, excluding the U.S. it wouldn’t be able to win :roll:

Oh and again, its amusing seeing a French man trying to diminish the IDF accomplishments when their example of fighting has been less then any example let alone any western example on how to fight!!

Oh and if you don’t believe me about the IDF, perhaps you’ll believe your own people (http://www.frenchforeignlegion.org/database/data/dta057.html) ;)

Shalom :D

I don't want to diminish IDF, i said only that Israel only fight against poor countrys. Egypt, jordan, Syria ... had perhaps good weapons but their soldiers had no a good training (look Iraqis against americans). did Israel fight against England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia, Netherlands, Austria....?
I'm sure that IDF is a good army for urbans combats...(for example) but dont said they are the best army because they beat the Egyptians. ok for once we have a "serious" post by you instead of your one liners!!

Ok first no one said that the IDF was the best (well I say that the IAF and the IDF SF are, but that’s a whole other argument…………..which btw again, with regards to SF, even your own FFL agree with (http://www.frenchforeignlegion.org/database/data/dta057.html) ;) )


Secondly Israel didn’t just beat the Egyptians but beat a combined force of the Egyptians and other Arab nations as well.

When you say poor countries, perhaps that’s their economies but militarily speaking, they had the best and didn’t look very poor (now some of them perhaps might be, with the exception of Egypt and a few others that also get American arms…but in those war’s they did not look poor at all)

They had soviet training and the best soviet and French equipment (or close to it) and they had a huge numeric advantage of around 15 to 1!! So again “I don’t know how fighting against 5 or 7 armies at a time equipped with the most advanced soviet and French weapons and defeating them time and time again (especially the first two wars, where besides the huge numeric disadvantage that Israel had. it also had a technological disadvantage as well), should be negated because Israel didn’t fight against any western nation as if it had to fight one of them on a one to one bases, excluding the U.S. it wouldn’t be able to win :roll:


Last I checked, not many western nations since ww2 have fought against another western nation, so you’ll never know, however there are factors and different things and studies since that can tell you a little about how each one will do if faced off with anyone else and I say that besides the U.S., the IDF can, if forced to take on, defeat anyone else!! (Perhaps England is a bit of a argument but the other’s I don’t think so!!)

Keep in mind though, that all this now is purely in the hypothetical for I cant see any scenario of any of this happening so it’s an almost impossible argument to prove.

Shalom :D

[S'13]

Egypt, jordan, Syria ... had perhaps good weapons but their soldiers had no a good training (look Iraqis against americans).


The Jordanian Army was trained and established by the British, the Syrian Army was trained and established by the French and the Egyptian army was also established and trained by the British. Of course in later years the Arab armies were also trained by the Soviets.

did Israel fight against England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia, Netherlands, Austria....?

That is one foolish remark...

However our IAF had a sole encounter with RAF pilots.

By the end of 1948 the tide had turned in the War of Independence and Israeli forces were pushing the invading Arab armies beyond the borders of mandatory Palestine. In a final bid to rout the Egyptian army, Israel launched operation "Horev", in which five Israeli brigades pushed into the Sinai desert in an attempt to encircle the retreating Egyptians. After five days of fighting, beginning on December 22nd 1948, Israeli victory was within sight. It was then however, that under an agreement with Egypt, Britain intervened and threatened Israel with retaliation should Israeli forces arrive in the Suez canal zone. Faced with such a warning Israeli plans changed and following the encirclement of the Egyptian forces in the Gaza strip, a ceasefire agreement was reached on January 6th 1949, due to go into effect on the afternoon of the 7th.

In order to further validate its warning, British presence in the air above the region was increased. At first a passive observer, the RAF based in Egypt started taking a more active role, intervening with IAF operations against the retreating Egyptian army. On the morning of January 7th 1949, a few hours before the ceasefire was due to come into effect, four RAF 208th Squadron Spitfire F.22s took off from Faid to observe Israeli operations in the Sinai. Once over Israeli forces, however, the four aircraft came under attack from Israeli anti aircraft fire. The formation's no. 2, Frank Close, took a direct hit to his engine and was forced to bail his stricken aircraft. Soon, two Israeli Spitfires of the 101st "First Fighter" Squadron, were also on the scene. The Israeli pilots, Chalmers Goodlin and John McElroy, volunteers from the US and Canada, spotted the Spitfires and engaged them. McElroy scored his first kill against a Spitfire flown by Ron Sayers, while Goodlin went after the RAF flight leader, Geoff Cooper, and shot him down after a short dogfight. McElroy, meanwhile, had spotted the fourth RAF Spitfire circling the wreckage of Close's aircraft. The last British Spitfire went down as well, its pilot, Tim McElhaw, bailing out before the aircraft hit the sand dunes of the Sinai. Ron Sayers was killed in the encounter, Close and McElhaw were captured by Israeli forces, while Cooper managed to evade capture and made it back to Egypt. The two captured pilots were released within a few days.

Although the IAF had gained overall air superiority in its encounters with the various Arab air forces, the prospect of facing the RAF was not one to be taken lightly and orders were issued to prevent a repeat of the combat with the British. These however, were soon ignored when four IAF Spitfires led by Ezer Weizman (former president of Israel) encoutered RAF Tempests looking for their four missing aircraft. In the ensueing dogfight, Bill Schroeder shot down an RAF Tempest, killing its pilot, David Tattersfield, while Weizman severely damaged another.
With the final result 5:0 in favor of Israel, a fierce British retaliation was expected. This failed to materialize however, apparently after the British government came under fire at home for intervening in Arab-Israeli affairs.


And Soviet pilots.

Egypt had launched the War of Attrition shortly after the end of the Six Days War (1967), hoping to force Israel into concessions the Arabs had failed to extract on the battlefield or in the international arena. Egyptian intensions were for a limited conflict, where Egypt's superior artillery force would barrage Israeli forces on the Suez Canal, inflicting enough casualties to move Israel towards giving up some of the land it had captured during the Six Days War. On the ground however, things went rather differently. Besides Egypt's failure to inflict the heavy casualties it had relied upon, Israel had no intension to sit idly by, waiting for an end to the Egyptian attacks. Israel retaliated by means of its own, using its army, navy, and most of all its air force, to attack and strike at Egypt, sending a clear indication that it will defend itself against these attacks. By 1970 Israeli superiority was apparent, with the IAF operating almost freely above Egyptian terriory, the local air defences unable to stop the IAF from attacking ground targets or flying air-to-air missions.
This was not lost upon Egypt's main sponsor, the USSR, which had armed Egypt with the best Soviet arms it had to offer. But these were not enough and when Egypt's president Nazer asked for further assistance, the Soviet Union responded by actually sending Russian pilots to help in the defence of Egypt's airspace. February 1970 saw the arrival of these Russian pilots along with 80 new Mig-21s, a large number of SAM batteries and other weapons for the Egyptian arsenal.

At first the Russian pilots were confined to defending their own air bases as well as to the defence of Cairo's airspace. But as time passed Soviet assistance to the Egyptian anti aircraft forces begun to bear fruit and begun to hamper IAF operations, disrupting IAF deep penetration strikes which had been carried out rather freely before. This success pushed the Russians into further envolvement and they begun taking over missions previously carried out by the Egyptian Air Force, coming ever closer and closer to actively confronting the IAF.
Russian pilots began approaching IAF aircraft during April 1970 but Israeli pilots had orders not to engage these aircraft, and broke off whenever Russian Migs appeared, on occurances such as on the 13th, 18th and 29th. Although no confrontation took place, these events were widely reported in the international media. The Israeli minister of defence offered to limit IAF operations to the Suez Canal zone, if the Russians were to remain over Cairo and the heartland of Egypt, and for two months no Russian presence was detected in the Canal zone. On June 25th however, this "cease-fire" was broken when an Israeli Skyhawk, on an attack sortie against Egyptian forces on the Canal, was pursued by a pair of Mig-21s into the Sinai. One of the Migs launched an air-to-air missile against the Skyhawk, damaging it and forcing it to land in a nearby air base. This aggresive act on the part of the Russians and their intrusion into Israeli air space canceled any Israeli reservations about confronting the USSR. A plan began forming for a purely Soviet-Israeli confrontation where the Russians were to be taught that they are out of their league. Set to take place a third of the way between the city of Suez and Cairo, 12 of Israel's best fighter pilots, together credited with 59 enemy aircraft kills, were recruited for this specific mission.

On thurday, April 30th, a pair of F-4 Phantoms attacked an Egyptian radar station on the west bank of the Canal, escorted by 4 Mirage IIIs. No Russian response was sighted and the 4 Mirages begun penetrating deeper into Egypt. 12 minutes after the intial penetration 8 Russian Mig-21s were scrambled against the IAF fighters and first contact was made at 14:20. Coming from the east, the Mirages lured the Migs westward towards Cairo, when another quartet of Israeli Mirages appeared behind the Russians. With the confrontation clearly about to take place, every available Russian fighter was launched againt the Mirages and within seconds another 12 Migs were in the air. The air battle began with 8 Mirages facing 20 Mig-21s, but soon 4 Israeli Phantoms which had entered the area below radar coverage appeared from below and joined in the fight. Led by Avihu-Ben-Nun, Israel's first Phantom squadron commander (and IAF chief of staff during the Gulf War of 1991), the new addition to the battle caused the Russians to launch yet another 4 Migs into the air, bringing the total number of aircraft participating in the dog fight to 36 aircraft.
The first Russian loss was shot down by the lead of the first Mirage III quartet, soon followed by an AIM-7 Sparrow kill from Avihu-Ben-Nun's aircraft, and a cannon kill by another Mirage III. After a fourth Mig was shot down by an F-4, the Russian pilots began breaking off. The Israeli fighters started giving chase but were ordered to return to Israel, with a desire by the IAF high command not to see any aircraft loss on the part of the IAF. Details of the dogfight were kept a secret, even from the aircraft ground crews which painted the Egyptian air force emblem as kill markings on the aircraft. Only after the story was published two months later in the British "Daily Express" were these markings changed to the Soviet air force's Red Star. The story revealed that besides the 4 known kills, another damaged aircraft had crashed approaching its air base, bringing the final result to 5:0 in favour of the IAF. Three Russian pilots parachuted to safety and two were killed. The source of the media report was apparently Egyptian, spurred by Russian arrogance and claims of Egyptian incompetence in earlier dealings with the Israeli Air Force.

[morlick]

[quote] Egypt, jordan, Syria ... had perhaps good weapons but their soldiers had no a good training (look Iraqis against americans).


The Jordanian Army was trained and established by the British, the Syrian Army was trained and established by the French and the Egyptian army was also established and trained by the British. Of course in later years the Arab armies were also trained by the Soviets.

quote]

Maybe, but how long British and French formed these armies?.
Some regiments of the Colombian army was trained by americans, they use also americans weapons. But i don't think that the Colombian army is on the same level that us army.
Look the iraqis in 1991 and now. Many people said that it was the third army in the world, but on the terrain it was a little different.

[S'13]

but how long British and French formed these armies?.

I am not sure how long, but without a doubt these armies were established and trained by the French and British, this fact was especially relevant when refering to the 1948 War of Independence.
You also ignored the fact that the Soviets trained these armies in later years.



Some regiments of the Colombian army was trained by americans, they use also americans weapons. But i don't think that the Colombian army is on the same level that us army.

So what are you trying to say? My poit is that the Arab armies got good equipment and good training so you can't say these armies were inferior in comparison to Israel. Actually in most of the Arab-Israeli wars, Israel was the inferior side in these terms (again look at the 1948 War of Independence and also at the 1956 Sinai War and the 1967 Six Day War).

Look the iraqis in 1991 and now. Many people said that it was the third army in the world, but on the terrain it was a little different.

The Iraqi Army was fighting the British and U.S, I don't think anyone doubted they would be defeated in a conventional war...

[Kaos]

Any of Finnish ww2 major long range patrol raids?

Fights lasting from 45min to 2 hours.. leaving hudreds/thousands (Record i think was 2000+ dead in 2h battle, with only small arms used..) Soviets shot dead and whole bases destroyed to the ground..

;)
I'll be glad to have more details about that, as I'm a great fan of Finnish armed forces in general, and especially Finnish air force.
;)

[Kaos]

Israel only fight again third world country so i dont think that israelis are the best person to give military lessons to the rest of the world. oh this again……. :roll:

Whether your right or not (which your not!!), what’s certain is that no French man with their military record rofl , should be telling people not to listen to advice coming from the IDF!!

I'm French, and I don't agree with Morlick's saying.
I can understand your answer, but please stop talking about things in which you haven't got enough knowledge like France military background. Our history is thousands years old, and quite difficult to master.
I'm quite a newbye here, and wonder if this forum is open to Frenchman sometimes...

[mikeytwo]

For me the double hostage rescue of the Dutch BBE in 1977 was one of the most succesful operations. This for several reasons:

1. It was one of the first hostage rescue operations
2. It was a double take down. At the same time a hijacked train and a hijacked school were attacked.
2. Numerous new techniques and tactics were used and developped.

Due to these innovations it is in the rows of the operation thunderbolt and operation nimrod.

[Ravage]

GROM captured Slavko Dokmanovic, without A SINGLE SHOOT

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/3974/13oq1.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13oq1.jpg)http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/2999/21xy2.th.jpg (http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21xy2.jpg)http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9343/37cb1.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37cb1.jpg)

[maple.leaf]

Eben Emael

Gran Sasso

Entebbe

Bruneval

[siberian tiger]

During the portuguese colonial war(1961-1974) there was an operation to rescue POW from Conakri wicth is the Republic of Guiné capital, a coutry that suport the independentist movements against Portugal.
This operation that i think is more like a commando raid than a special operation, was conduct by an army commando company and a navy special marine detachment (similar to Royal Marine Commando). They make an amphibious landing at night and ocupy key positions in all the city during the night, the principal objective witch was to rescur the POW was sucessful but some of the secondary objectives fail, ocupy the electric powerplant of the city and cut it off and destroy all the navy ships that were at the docks were done. Destroying the Mig fighters at the airport fail because they were not there, i belive that they have the objective of capture or assassinate the enemy liders of the government and rebel group but their were not found as well. This troops were using soviet wepons and uniforms, and the portuguese navy ships that were used for transport were without anyking of identification like flags or numbers, a comic situation in this operation was that the portuguese forces didn`t have a recent map of the Conakri coast so they decided to paint a navy ship with a diferent color of the used by the portuguese navy and put a PAIGC flag (PAIGC was the independentist movement that was fighting portugal in Guiné-Bissau colony), they just enter to their waters, reach almost to the coast and with the radar compare what they have build with the old map, this recon was made in one night and the ship was not detected, it was the first navy ship that PAIGC have and they not heven know lol. I don`t now more details of this operation but it was called operation green sea (operação mar verde) in portuguese.

[Para]

The Germans always recorded that the most successful raid was at Brunival during WW2 when a company of Paratroopers dropped into France and dismantled the German Radar system and and sailed back to England with it. The British lost about 9 men on this raid but learnt enough about their radar to block the radar on many of the heavy bomber raids and saved thousands of allied air mens lives

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

Entebbe?

http://www.idf.il/english/history/entebbe1.stm





But I'll add in the Son Tay raid here:

http://www.sontayraider.com/

"It was not successful though." you say. "Its mission was to rescue American POWs and it did not rescue any."

http://www.sontayraider.com/Slide16.JPG

http://www.sontayraider.com/Slide8.JPG

http://www.sontayraider.com/SontayRaiderPreparationforinsertion.htm

But it might have.

cheers

front

i dont really see how this could be up there other than being a very noble cause i dont really see how it can be termed succesful when they never brought any pows back.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

The Germans always recorded that the most successful raid was at Brunival during WW2 when a company of Paratroopers dropped into France and dismantled the German Radar system and and sailed back to England with it. The British lost about 9 men on this raid but learnt enough about their radar to block the radar on many of the heavy bomber raids and saved thousands of allied air mens lives

i think a few of them blokes were left behinfd didnt someone see the torch signals as they were leaving but tthey couldnt tell wether it was the jerrys trying to ambush them.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

So then instead of saying that Nimrod was bollocks Phantom,you haven't posted anything either to say what was your opinion other than the "the ones you don't hear about!!What a muppet!If you don't hear about them,how the fu*k can you tell if they're succesful or not?
As for the guy getting burnt,well at Entebbe they lost a guy,and you never criticised that one!
As for the surviving terrorist,he hid among the hostages,and it was when they completed the rescue he was fingered by the other hostages,and he was frogmarched out of their view,they were going to top him,but by that time the worlds media now knew who the SAS were!!
Instead of telling people to shut the fu*k up,perhaps you'd care to tell us the most succesful one
You want another example then?How about the Operation at Loughgall,where James Lynagh and his ASU were taken out by the SAS?
Oh perhaps a bad example due to the 2 civvies who were killed when the drove into the kill zone by mistake,but everything else was Mission Accomplished...........therfore a success!!!

i agree with you argyle so one bloke got burnt on a rope who gives a **** about that hes still alive,as for the hostage that was unlucky and the one who survived was being taken back into the building to get finished off but someone seen a bit of sense as thew press were all over the place.

anyway what about the raid on pebble island during the falklands only 2 men with blast injuries for the bulk of the pucara threat taken out not too bad.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

operation barras sierra leone 2000 all hostages released 1 killed and a handful of wounded none serious.

[S'13]

The Germans always recorded that the most successful raid was at Brunival during WW2 when a company of Paratroopers dropped into France and dismantled the German Radar system and and sailed back to England with it. The British lost about 9 men on this raid but learnt enough about their radar to block the radar on many of the heavy bomber raids and saved thousands of allied air mens lives

Reminds me of this operation...

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/operate3.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Rooster.html

[ogukuo72]

There's so many to choose from!

Criteria:

1) Was it successful?

2) How great was the obstacles that had to be overcome?

3) What was the strategic impact of the operation?

Post-WW2 : Entebbe

1) It was successful in that it killed all the terrorists, and rescued most of the hostages.

2) The obstacles were immense, including huge distances, hostile territory, the presence of large hostile military forces, the extremely short time required to reach the hostages before the terrorists could kill them, etc. Plus, the assault force could not be reinforced. It was literally do or die.

3) The strategic impact could be seen as enormous. No one dared to try something like Entebbe on the Israelis again. The Israelis demonstrated that they would not hesitate to overcome great obstacles to strike hard if need be.

Post WW-2: Hostage Rescue from the Iranian Embassy

1) Successful in that the SAS rescued most of the hostages and killed the terrorists.

2) The main obstacle was to get to the hostages quickly. Having said that, compared to the Entebbe raid, all the advantages were with the assault force. The embassy was in the centre of London. It did not stand by itself, but was flanked on both sides by buildings that allowed the assault force access. The assault force was conveniently based for a rapid assault, and reinforcements were readily on hand.

3) The strategic impact was obvious. Nobody tried the same thing again in the UK. It also helped to rehabilitate the reputation of the British military.

Post WW2: The Son Tay Raid

1) Not successful in that none of the POW's were recovered

2) The obstacles were great, and comparable to that experienced by the Israelis at Entebbe. The Americans had to strike deep into enemy territory and could not be reinforced. However, the Americans had air support, which the Israelis did not, which reduced some of the dangers.

3) The strategic impact is debatable. It demonstrated American resolve and served as a warning to North Vietnam that the POW card was not all up-side with no down-side. It also demonstrated American capability to launch a deadly strike even within North Vietnam itself. On the other hand, it did not have an impact on the wider war.

WW2: Airborne assault to rescue Mussolini

1) It was successful in that Mussolini was indeed rescued.

2) The obstacles were many. Mussolini was held on a mountain resort that was geographically isolated and easily defended. Access was via a cable car only, and there was insufficient space for conventional airborne assault. Also, the time between the landing to rescue must be kept short to prevent the guards from executing Mussolini. There was no space to land most conventional aircraft.

3) The strategic impact is arguable. Mussolini subsequently became no more than a puppet figurehead. He might have kept some facist Italian units fighting, but the heavy lifting was done by the German divisions. He played no part in mobilising Italian support for the German war effort. The Italians rallied mostly behind the Allies, including the launching of a heroic partisian struggle in the North.

WW2: X-craft attack on the Tirpitz

1) Not very successful. Tirpitz was crippled but not sunk. It was ready for battle within nine months. It had to be sunk by conventional air attacks.

2) The obstacles were great, including huge distances to cross, harbour defenses, difficult waters, and the unreliable X-craft themselves.

3) The strategic impact can be considered to be large, but not great. The Tirpitz was no longer capable of ocean-going and fighting. The few months it was being repaired allowed the British greater freedom to move convoys. But its presence remained a threat, forcing the British to continue diverting resources to guard against it.

WW2: Dambuster raid on the Ruhr Dams

1) Successful in the sense that it breached the dams.

2) The obstacles were large but not great. The primary difficulty was finding a way to overcome the anti-torpedo defenses. Once an effective method was devised (the bouncing bombs), the mission became viable. The dangers were no greater than other low-level night time raids.

3) The strategic impact was limited. The dams were quickly repaired, and the damage to German industrial production was not as great as first hoped for on the British side and feared on the German side.

[Atlantic Friend]

In 1967, it had almost no arms from the U.S. and the French and British arms that it had were not at all superior to what the Arabs had.

I seem to remember A-4, F-4 and Mirage jets that were superior to Mig-15, MiG-17, MIG-19s, I seem to remember British tanks that were superior to Soviet T-55s.

You can scuff all you want, but defeating time and time again militaries with the most advanced and unlimited soviet and French arms with their huge numeric advantage of around 15 to 1 is all the proof that is needed to debunk your weak attempts to belittle the IDF accomplishments.

I must have missed the time when Israel fought Arab armies that had fielded "most advanced and unlimited" French weapons. Care to elaborate about that particular episode, IDFM203 ?

[Atlantic Friend]

Did the French army ever face a Western army since WW2 (which wasn't a great success story for the French)?

As far as I know, NO Western army ever faced a Western army since WW2...as no war erupted in Western Europe from 1945 to the present.

[Atlantic Friend]

BTW : Syria isn't in africa...also jordan...

And can bet that Egept can kick france ass.

Everybody can beat everybody's ass, given the right circumstances... Has Egypt to beat a French invasion, or is it supposed to invade French coastal areas and fight its way onto Paris ? Does it receive support by other nations, or does it also have to fight through French allies ? Is Pres. Mubharak the Egyptian Clark Kent, does Pres. Chirac choke on a croissant, are UFOs involved, etc...

[S'13]

I seem to remember A-4, F-4 and Mirage jets that were superior to Mig-15, MiG-17, MIG-19s, I seem to remember British tanks that were superior to Soviet T-55s.


We didn't have any A-4's and F-4's in the Six Day War... only Mirage jets, this while the Egyptian and the Syrians were equipped with Mig-21s

As for the tanks, Israel was mostly equipped with Shermans (and a certain amount of Centurions). The Jordanians were also armed with British made Centurions.


I must have missed the time when Israel fought Arab armies that had fielded "most advanced and unlimited" French weapons.


The Syrians did use Renault R39 tanks in 1948.

[S'13]

As far as I know, NO Western army ever faced a Western army since WW2...as no war erupted in Western Europe from 1945 to the present.

Not true...

The Falklands War was fought between nations that are considerd to be a part of the West.

Anyway A.F, I don't really understand why you respond to posts that were part of a debate that has been dead for over a year if I'm not mistaken.

[Futile Talisman]

-Operation Spring of Youth, April 1973
.

x2

Any time Sayeret Maktal goes on an op in drag is a winner for me.:)

[S'13]

x2

Any time Sayeret Maktal goes on an op in drag is a winner for me.:)

Very true...

[S'13]

BTW A.F, here's a photo of a Syrian Renault 35 that was stopped at the entrance of Kibbutz Dgania in 1948 (and stands there untill this very day).

http://www.hydepark.co.il/hydepark/upload03/031023_152920-2014_dgania-tank01.jpg

[Futile Talisman]

Very true...

S'13,

question if you don't mind,

re: Spring of Youth

Israeli Paratroopers hit Habash's PFLPO headquarters and S'13 conducted raids on fuel dumps in the Tyre-Sidon area of Lebanon as well that night in addition to the SM raid on the apartment complex, correct?

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

well for your information,i was there and i lost some freinds of mine in that country.So let me say that i think that you are a BASTARD for spiting on the graves of those dead soldiers by trying to insinuate that they were incompetent.Second,you were not there,you got your information from a damn book.nuff said.Third,check your facts,the main force that did the fighting that led to the pushing back of the rebels was the Nigerian Army.Yes the british commandoes played a pivotal role but still we did our part.And let me say this again,you are a SON OF A BITCH for insulting the dead.Thank you.This is all i am going to say on this topic.

the nigerians with the un used to let the west side boys do vcps with them and then watch as they raped and pilaged and there old favourite chopping kids hands off.
after op barras where 22 and a coy from 1 para assaulted the west side boys one of the chinooks was loaded with the enemy dead landed at a nigerian check point and unloaded them the oc of the para reg company then told the nigerian boss enough was enough or the next time its them who would be getting dragged from the back of a chinook.
now thats not from a book and any brit who was there will tell you how good the nigerians were.
i dont want to mock the dead but its fact mate so live with it!

[Atlantic Friend]

Not true...

The Falklands War was fought between nations that are considerd to be a part of the West.

Anyway A.F, I don't really understand why you respond to posts that were part of a debate that has been dead for over a year if I'm not mistaken.

Usually because I get too interested in the debate too notice the time the last message was posted ! :oops:

[Atlantic Friend]

I must have missed the time when Israel fought Arab armies that had fielded "most advanced and unlimited" French weapons.

The Syrians did use Renault R39 tanks in 1948.

Renault R39 tanks, France's "most advanced" weapons ? Surely you jest. Good grief, these early 1930s-vintage tanks were leftovers from the colonial era when Syria/Lebanon were French protectorates !

[S'13]

Israeli Paratroopers hit Habash's PFLPO headquarters and S'13 conducted raids on fuel dumps in the Tyre-Sidon area of Lebanon as well that night in addition to the SM raid on the apartment complex, correct?

Very correct, the Shayetet 13 force had also hit weapons manufacturing facilities, it needs to be made clear that the fuel dumps were held by the PLO (this is for other people on this board, as I'm sure you are well aware of this).

[foxtrot023]

As far as "known", successful special op missions go, you can't leave out US Navy SEAL actions during the invasion of Panama. On the night of the invasion, two teams from Team 4 had missions in Panama, both meant to prevent the escape of Noriega. The first team was tasked to destroy Noriega's ocean boat, while the other was tasked with the destruction of his private jet. Both operations went to hell because of limited planning time, and the fact that Noriega was expecting similar attacks.

A dive team from the first team was successful in destroying the ship, despite the fact that Noriega's men were using grenades as depth charges against them. The second team was successful in infiltrating the airport where the plane was kept, but were engaged by Noriega's men who had set up defensive positions inside the planes hanger. The SEALs were caught on open ground with no cover, but still managed to disable the jet and neutralize Noriega's men. Four SEALs were killed and eight were wounded in that operation.

My father was passing by that airport as the shots started. The problem as you mentioned is that the Seals had no cover whatsoever, and heavily depended on suprise, but since bombs were dropping on Panama City, the suprise was lost.

Didn´t the Delta fellas took out Radio Nacional of Panama?

[S'13]

Usually because I get too interested in the debate too notice the time the last message was posted ! :oops:

I thought so...

Renault R39 tanks, France's "most advanced" weapons ? Surely you jest. Good grief, these early 1930s-vintage tanks were leftovers from the colonial era when Syria/Lebanon were French protectorates !

Which wasn't long before the 1948 war... one thing is for sure, they were a lot more advanced than anything we had when the war broke out (one tank with no cannon).

[foxtrot023]

I agree, they did a fine job considering some of the circumstances. Those AC-130s ruled the skies in those battles.

Yep they did. We called them ¨guardian angels¨

[Atlantic Friend]

Which wasn't long before the 1948 war... one thing is for sure, they were a lot more advanced than anything we had when the war broke out (one tank with no cannon).

Not if you had Shermans they weren't ! LOL. The R39s were already obsolete in 1938... And again, they weren't neither new nor sold by France, they were leftovers from the French colonial troops that had left Syria/Lebanon.

[S'13]

Not if you had Shermans they weren't ! LOL. The R39s were already obsolete in 1938... And again, they weren't neither new nor sold by France, they were leftovers from the French colonial troops that had left Syria/Lebanon.

When the war broke out we had no tank force!

During the war Israel had managed to arm itself with some 14 operational Shermans (out of which I believe only 3 saw action), from an Italian junkyard where they were to be sold for scrap.

As for the R-39 being obsolete in 1938, it was only put into service in 1936 and even saw action in WW2 (mostly in German hands).

[siberian tiger]

I `m tired of see coments about that IDF is not a great force because it only fight 3-World country armys but i guess that the US Army fought a 3-world country army in Vietnam and they didn`t win. In my opinion is almost impossible any other army in the world with the numbers of the IDF to do what they have done and that is to be respected. They may not be the best but they for shore are very good, they have fought several wars since their formation (independece war, Suez crisis, 6 day war, Youm Kippur war, Libanon war) and had never lost.
About the French army greatness i can only say is that i remember their last great victory against other western country was during the Napoleonic Wars in 1800s because WWI was a British Empire victory and WWII was a USA victory.
And that guy that said that Egypt could defeted France i can only remember him that France has nuclear weapons!!!!
But in a final check the USA is the most powerful in the world, they may not have the best trained army but they have an army with excelent equipment and in a greater number that no other western country can have, what the US also have is the most powerfull Air Force, the most powerful Navy, lots of Nuks and lots of dolars.
And i want to remember all the persons here that this thread is about SOF operations is not the "who is the best army in the world thread"or the "i don`t like IDF thread". Thanks to all :)

[siberian tiger]

And i don`t think that the conquest of afghanistan with a few SOF teams is a great SOF operation because they have a powerfull air suport form US Air Force and US Navy and those SOF troops were not in many battles, who fought and died in many of that fights were the Afghans of the Northern Aliance. I don`t think that all the credit for that victory should go for SOF tems, only a part of it.

[Atlantic Friend]

When the war broke out we had no tank force!

During the war Israel had managed to arm itself with some 14 operational Shermans (out of which I believe only 3 saw action), from an Italian junkyard where they were to be sold for scrap.

As for the R-39 being obsolete in 1938, it was only put into service in 1936 and even saw action in WW2 (mostly in German hands).

Yes, but the R39 concept was already obsolete. Consider : a three-man crew, with the tank commander having to fire the gun, a short gun, thin armor, no radio IIRC...

THis said, I don't want to belittle Tsahal's accomplishment, just to point out that France never supplied advanced weapons to Israel's enemies.

[S'13]

just to point out that France never supplied advanced weapons to Israel's enemies.

No argument over this, and I will add that France was our closest ally in the 50's and 60's when Israel was still a country under the threat of distruction.

[Midav]

There are several to choose from. However, the one that sticks out the most is the Entebbe rescue operation.

[Uninen]

Eben-Emael and Kolwezi are among my favorites.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

My father was passing by that airport as the shots started. The problem as you mentioned is that the Seals had no cover whatsoever, and heavily depended on suprise, but since bombs were dropping on Panama City, the suprise was lost.

Didn´t the Delta fellas took out Radio Nacional of Panama?

ive seen a bit about this on the tv and obviously take all that with a pinch of salt,but there were airstrikes going in at the time why didnt they bomb the boat and the jet?
seems to me that it would been a lot easier that way.oh by the way im not trying to start a flame war here i just want to know if there were reasons for it or were the seals looking for a bit of action?

[ogukuo72]

There are several to choose from. However, the one that sticks out the most is the Entebbe rescue operation.

Yes. It has many great obstacles to its success, and yet it was successful. Any way you look at it, it's an impressive achievement.

[Atlantic Friend]

No argument over this, and I will add that France was our closest ally in the 50's and 60's when Israel was still a country under the threat of distruction.

Have you read Martin van Creveld's book about the history of Tsahal, BTW ? I thought it was a truly fascinating book, but I don't know enough about Israeli history to be able to judge its accuracy.

[foxtrot023]

ive seen a bit about this on the tv and obviously take all that with a pinch of salt,but there were airstrikes going in at the time why didnt they bomb the boat and the jet?
seems to me that it would been a lot easier that way.oh by the way im not trying to start a flame war here i just want to know if there were reasons for it or were the seals looking for a bit of action?

The airport was a civilian facility. I guess they thought a surgical strike by a team to be more clean than bombing the airport. It must be said that the US tried very hard not to destroy Panamanian infraestucture during Just Cause.

[fantassin]

"the US tried very hard not to destroy Panamanian infraestucture during Just Cause"

they just firebombed a whole district of the city...

[foxtrot023]

"the US tried very hard not to destroy Panamanian infraestucture during Just Cause"

they just firebombed a whole district of the city...

Fantassin, I was in Panama during Just Cause, and the fires got started by the Dignity Batallions. If you want to check some pictures of tha district, that can be found in a thread I did in the PICS+VIDEOS thread

[ClydeFrog]

There's so many to choose from!

Criteria:

1) Was it successful?

2) How great was the obstacles that had to be overcome?

3) What was the strategic impact of the operation?

Post-WW2 : Entebbe

1) It was successful in that it killed all the terrorists, and rescued most of the hostages.

2) The obstacles were immense, including huge distances, hostile territory, the presence of large hostile military forces, the extremely short time required to reach the hostages before the terrorists could kill them, etc. Plus, the assault force could not be reinforced. It was literally do or die.

3) The strategic impact could be seen as enormous. No one dared to try something like Entebbe on the Israelis again. The Israelis demonstrated that they would not hesitate to overcome great obstacles to strike hard if need be.

Post WW-2: Hostage Rescue from the Iranian Embassy

1) Successful in that the SAS rescued most of the hostages and killed the terrorists.

2) The main obstacle was to get to the hostages quickly. Having said that, compared to the Entebbe raid, all the advantages were with the assault force. The embassy was in the centre of London. It did not stand by itself, but was flanked on both sides by buildings that allowed the assault force access. The assault force was conveniently based for a rapid assault, and reinforcements were readily on hand.

3) The strategic impact was obvious. Nobody tried the same thing again in the UK. It also helped to rehabilitate the reputation of the British military.

Post WW2: The Son Tay Raid

1) Not successful in that none of the POW's were recovered

2) The obstacles were great, and comparable to that experienced by the Israelis at Entebbe. The Americans had to strike deep into enemy territory and could not be reinforced. However, the Americans had air support, which the Israelis did not, which reduced some of the dangers.

3) The strategic impact is debatable. It demonstrated American resolve and served as a warning to North Vietnam that the POW card was not all up-side with no down-side. It also demonstrated American capability to launch a deadly strike even within North Vietnam itself. On the other hand, it did not have an impact on the wider war.

WW2: Airborne assault to rescue Mussolini

1) It was successful in that Mussolini was indeed rescued.

2) The obstacles were many. Mussolini was held on a mountain resort that was geographically isolated and easily defended. Access was via a cable car only, and there was insufficient space for conventional airborne assault. Also, the time between the landing to rescue must be kept short to prevent the guards from executing Mussolini. There was no space to land most conventional aircraft.

3) The strategic impact is arguable. Mussolini subsequently became no more than a puppet figurehead. He might have kept some facist Italian units fighting, but the heavy lifting was done by the German divisions. He played no part in mobilising Italian support for the German war effort. The Italians rallied mostly behind the Allies, including the launching of a heroic partisian struggle in the North.

WW2: X-craft attack on the Tirpitz

1) Not very successful. Tirpitz was crippled but not sunk. It was ready for battle within nine months. It had to be sunk by conventional air attacks.

2) The obstacles were great, including huge distances to cross, harbour defenses, difficult waters, and the unreliable X-craft themselves.

3) The strategic impact can be considered to be large, but not great. The Tirpitz was no longer capable of ocean-going and fighting. The few months it was being repaired allowed the British greater freedom to move convoys. But its presence remained a threat, forcing the British to continue diverting resources to guard against it.

WW2: Dambuster raid on the Ruhr Dams

1) Successful in the sense that it breached the dams.

2) The obstacles were large but not great. The primary difficulty was finding a way to overcome the anti-torpedo defenses. Once an effective method was devised (the bouncing bombs), the mission became viable. The dangers were no greater than other low-level night time raids.

3) The strategic impact was limited. The dams were quickly repaired, and the damage to German industrial production was not as great as first hoped for on the British side and feared on the German side.
Nice summary. I wouldn't take the long-run consequences into consideration when evaluating the "success" though, as i think the thread aimed more at the quality of the men that planned and performed the action.

On a second note: Skorzeny didn't really play a major role in the rescue of Mussolini. He only did some of the reconnaissance and later accompanied Mussolini to Rome. It was a PR-stunt so to say. The real man behind the ground operation was Graf Otto von Berlepsch who was iirc a Fallschirmjaeger and not a member of the Waffen-SS. But Skorzeny was already a famed man at the time and, being a member of the Waffen-SS, more suitable for propaganda purposes.

Maybe the most influenting SOF-operation by Skorzeny was the one that never was: After the failed Battle of the Bulge, some German POWs said Skorzeny was ordered to capture or kill Gen. Eisenhower, which made the US Forces confine Eisenhower in his HQ for some weeks. That mission was all fake though.

[Kilo]

During the portuguese colonial war(1961-1974) there was an operation to rescue POW from Conakri wicth is the Republic of Guiné capital, a coutry that suport the independentist movements against Portugal.
This operation that i think is more like a commando raid than a special operation, was conduct by an army commando company and a navy special marine detachment (similar to Royal Marine Commando). They make an amphibious landing at night and ocupy key positions in all the city during the night, the principal objective witch was to rescur the POW was sucessful but some of the secondary objectives fail, ocupy the electric powerplant of the city and cut it off and destroy all the navy ships that were at the docks were done. Destroying the Mig fighters at the airport fail because they were not there, i belive that they have the objective of capture or assassinate the enemy liders of the government and rebel group but their were not found as well. This troops were using soviet wepons and uniforms, and the portuguese navy ships that were used for transport were without anyking of identification like flags or numbers, a comic situation in this operation was that the portuguese forces didn`t have a recent map of the Conakri coast so they decided to paint a navy ship with a diferent color of the used by the portuguese navy and put a PAIGC flag (PAIGC was the independentist movement that was fighting portugal in Guiné-Bissau colony), they just enter to their waters, reach almost to the coast and with the radar compare what they have build with the old map, this recon was made in one night and the ship was not detected, it was the first navy ship that PAIGC have and they not heven know lol. I don`t now more details of this operation but it was called operation green sea (operação mar verde) in portuguese.


Mar Verde was a fantatisc operation

We denied it in the United Nations in 1973

I think the Portugueses Government and the Armed Forces still deny that such operation ever took place



A lot of resemblances with Frederick Forsyth's novel The Dogs of War

[Ravage]

GROM and SPECWAR siezed MAABOT and KAAOT oil rigs just as the 2nd war with Iraq began.
Not even one shot was fired during that op.

[Buckeye67]

Here's one that many of you may not have heard of (I searched the thread for "Jaywick" and "Krait" but nothing turned up. Apologies if this has already been posted).

Operation Jaywick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jaywick) carried out by the Z Special Unit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Special_Unit) against japanese shipping in Singapore. The wiki link there gives some details about it, but here's the basic gist of it:

In mid-1943, the Krait travelled from a training camp at Broken Bay, New South Wales to Thursday Island. Aboard was a complement from Z Special Unit of four British and eleven Australian personnel, comprising:

* Major I Lyon (Mission commander)
* Lieutenant H E Carse (Krait's captain)
* Lieutenant D M N Davidson
* Lieutenant R C Page
* Corporal A A Crilly
* Leading Seaman K P Cain
* Leading Stoker J P McDowell
* Leading Telegraphist H S Young
* Able Seaman W G Falls
* Corporal R G Morris
* Able Seaman M Berryman
* Able Seaman F W L Marsh
* Able Seaman A W Jones
* Able Seaman A W G Huston

On August 13 1943 the Krait left Thursday Island for the US Naval Base at Exmouth Gulf in northern Western Australia where it was refuelled and repairs were undertaken.

On September 2 the Krait left Exmouth Gulf and departed for Singapore. The team's safety depended on maintaining the disguise of a local fishing boat. The men stained their skin brown with dye to appear more Asiatic and were meticulous in what sort of rubbish they threw overboard, lest a trail of European garbage lead arouse suspicion. After a relatively uneventful voyage the Krait arrived off Singapore on September 24. That night six men left the boat and paddled 50 kilometres to establish a forward base in a cave on a small island near the harbour. On the night of September 26 they paddled into the harbour and placed limpet mines on several Japanese ships before returning to their hiding spot.

In the resulting explosions, the limpet mines sank or seriously damaged four Japanese ships, comprising over 39,000 tons between them. The commandos waited until the commotion over the attack had subsided and then returned to the Krait, which they reached on October 2. The return to Australia was mostly uneventful, except for a tense incident in the Lombok Strait when the ship was closely approached by a Japanese patrol boat; however the Krait was not challenged. On October 19, the ship and crew arrived safely back at Exmouth Gulf.

Here's one I can't believe hasn't been posted (again, I searched the thread, but didn't turn up anything):

"The Great Raid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_at_Cabanatuan)" - the rescue of POW's from the Cabanatuan POW camp in the Phillipines by US Army Rangers and filipino guerrillas:

Teaser from the article:
The Great Raid on Cabanatuan in the Philippines on 30 January 1945 by US Army Rangers and Filipino guerrillas resulted in the liberation of more than 500 prisoners of war (POWs) from a Japanese POW camp near Cabanatuan and was a celebrated historic achievement involving Allied special forces during World War II.

Amazing stuff. Both actions were incredible.

[Ravage]

Saw the movie "The Great Raid", typical Hollywood, but still a good movie.

[Oneto15]

Right.. I've just skip-read this entire thread and I can't find any reference to the this one...

The SAS raid on Pebble Island by D Squadron 22 SAS and attached forces commanded by Capt' John Hamilton during the Falklands War 15th May 1982.


11 Aircraft destroyed at a cost of one man WIA.

[Argyll]

GROM and SPECWAR siezed MAABOT and KAAOT oil rigs just as the 2nd war with Iraq began.
Not even one shot was fired during that op.

Maybe because all the bad guys had left and it was a skeleton crew who were there, and had no stomach for a fight!!p-)