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Secret Squirrel
08-29-2004, 02:25 PM
When President Bush acknowledged for the first time the other day a "miscalculation" about how the occupation of Iraq would unfold, it was the latest example of a subtle presidential strategy that has unfolded in the run-up to the Republican National Convention: admit to the narrowest of errors, on the way to arguing that his missteps were overwhelmed by a far larger victory.

At every stop on his campaign tour - yesterday he opened a three-city bus tour of Ohio in the picturesque town square of this suburb of Dayton - Bush now readily concedes that his main rationale for going to war, Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, was based on a misconception. But in the next breath he dismisses its import.

"Even though we didn't find the stockpiles we expected to find, Saddam Hussein had the capability of making weapons of mass destruction, and he could have passed that capability on to the enemy," Bush said yesterday morning, before a crowd of thousands gathered around small shops and a looming flagpole. Then, to growing applause, he added: "Knowing what I know today, I would have made the same decision."

It is an argument he makes daily, on the way to arguing that Sen. John Kerry came to the same conclusion - but may change his mind, Bush says, in the 60 days to the election.

Yet until he sat down with two New York Times correspondents on Thursday, Bush had resisted, for more than a year, any public concession that the occupation, too, had been based on some faulty assumptions. To admit error there, one of his senior aides suggested a month ago, would be "to give the Kerry campaign an endless opportunity."

So Bush slipped into the subject gently, casting the failure to contain the Iraqi insurgency as the narrowest of mistakes, the unintended consequence of quick military victory. True, Bush acknowledged, no one expected 17 months of continuing street battles and roadside attacks, but like the failure to find unconventional weapons, he said, the insurgency will be viewed as far less significant than the benefits of being rid of Saddam.

"We planned for a series of events, some of which happened and some of which didn't happen," Bush said in the interview, which took place under a New Mexico stadium before a rally. "And it turns out that as a result of a quick, substantial victory, we faced conditions on the ground that were different than we assumed initially. And that is, we thought that the Baathists would stand and fight and much of the Saddam army would be ready to engage."

He continued: "And instead, because we moved so quickly into the country, they dissipated and spread out into the countryside, and now we're having to face them again." Later he said that "what's important is, is that our strategy was flexible enough to adjust to conditions on the ground as we eventually found them."

Bush's description of what he called, at the interview's end, a "miscalculation of what conditions would be like after a swift victory" omitted any mention of some of the mistakes his own aides, current and former, say also contributed to the insurgency's rise.

In an article in this month's "Foreign Affairs," Larry Diamond, a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and a former aide to L. Paul Bremer, the head of the U.S. coalition authority until it disbanded on June 28, described how the administration's decision to limit the number of troops sent to Iraq led to the deterioration of the security situation and allowed the insurgency to gain strength.

"In truth, around 300,000 troops might have been enough to make Iraq largely secure after the war," Diamond wrote, citing a figure that is more than twice the number of U.S. troops now in the country.

"Administration officials repeatedly deluded themselves into believing that the defeat of the insurgency was just around the corner," he wrote.

But Bush declined to take up that argument, or talk about whether it was a mistake to pursue de-Baathification of the government so vigorously that many government officials were alienated and joined the resistance to the occupation. Speaking after the interview, which she sat in on, Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, said that Bush had been briefed before the war on a number of contingencies, including what she termed "catastrophic success," the collapse of Saddam's government, but that was only one of a number of possibilities the White House considered.

Like everything he says about Iraq, Bush's acknowledgment of miscalculation has resounded in the echo chamber of the campaign, and beyond - it was news in Britain and India and South Korea, where the question of what went wrong goes to the heart of political debates about whether international forces should still be there.

Kerry's foreign policy adviser, Rand Beers, seized on the president's comment on Friday, calling it "welcome, but hardly enough."

"For well over a year, our troops have been paying the price of President Bush's failure to plan to win the peace," he said. "The president has taken a step in the direction of leveling with the American people, but he has still not offered a workable plan."

Sayeret
08-29-2004, 03:00 PM
The US didn't go into Iraq to make Iraqis happy but rather for its own security. Even if I knew that the Iraqi insurgents were going to still be fighting the US I would have supported the war. I didn't support the war so the US could have an easy victory but so the Al Qaeda and any other terrorist group wouldn't get a hold of biological or chemical weapons. Iraq had WMDs and thats why the UN kept inspecting in the 1990s and why several hundred thousand Kurds are now dead. Saddam Hussein broke the rules set up after the first Gulf War and was a threat to American allies in the region. For those reasons I supported the war and still do.

Midav
08-29-2004, 03:06 PM
With all due respect, how would more troops do better? They would just offer more targets.

Just a few decades back, we had over half a million troops in a much smaller SE Asian country. That did not deter attacks. Matter of fact, in a months time we lost nearly as many as all those killed in Iraq up until now.

Just giving an example.

Right now, the Iraqi people need to take charge and rat these insurgents out. Also, any and all foreign involvement in helping these insurgents needs to be stopped.

My two cents.

Secret Squirrel
08-29-2004, 03:24 PM
With all due respect, how would more troops do better? They would just offer more targets.

Just a few decades back, we had over half a million troops in a much smaller SE Asian country. That did not deter attacks. Matter of fact, in a months time we lost nearly as many as all those killed in Iraq up until now.

Just giving an example.

Right now, the Iraqi people need to take charge and rat these insurgents out. Also, any and all foreign involvement in helping these insurgents needs to be stopped.

My two cents.

The deserts of Iraq arent the jungles of Vietnam. ;) They would offer more targets? With all due respect what kind of stupid reasoning is that? But you did counter your own argument when you said "all foreign involvement in helping these insurgents needs to be stopped." You see, more troops would have helped secure Iraq's borders(you do know how many borders Iraq has right?). But of course foreign fighters are not the majority in Iraq but rather the minority. More troops would also have meant that, after the invasion and "mission accomplished", some troops wouldnt have had to be redeployed and others wouldnt have had their TODs extended. How can you even begin to argue that there was enough troops in light of the last two things I mentioned? Surely you dont believe that the post-war planning was perfect or as close to perfection as possible?

Midav
08-29-2004, 03:29 PM
IED's, dude. Not everything is flat open desert, either.

What good would more troops do?

Even with 500k troops you could not secure the borders effectively. Drones would be much more ideal for that. That is not countering my statement.

No planning is ever perfect once hotile actions are commited. However, in the present and the now, more troops would really do little to quelm the fighting.

Secret Squirrel
08-29-2004, 03:35 PM
IED's, dude. Not everything is flat open desert, either.

What good would more troops do?

Even with 500k troops you could not secure the borders effectively. Drones would be much more ideal for that. That is not countering my statement.

No planning is ever perfect once hotile actions are commited. However, in the present and the now, more troops would really do little to quelm the fighting.

It's a pity that most disagree with you, including Bush, and have since lamented their mistakes. ;)

Midav
08-29-2004, 03:37 PM
It's a pity that most disagree with you, including Bush, and have since lamented their mistakes. ;)

I agree 100%! It trully is a pity ;)

Midav
08-29-2004, 03:42 PM
I'm just curious about one thing.

What would more troops do to stop the insurgency? Would more have been able to storm the Najaf shrine better, without having the Shia's going completely ape?

Would more do better in guerilla warfare?

Would more help fight the giant spiders off?

To me, it doesn't sound like more ground troops are needed.
IMO, if anything is needed, it would be SOF.

Secret Squirrel
08-29-2004, 04:01 PM
I'm just curious about one thing.

What would more troops do to stop the insurgency? Would more have been able to storm the Najaf shrine better, without having the Shia's going completely ape?

Would more do better in guerilla warfare?

Would more help fight the giant spiders off?

To me, it doesn't sound like more ground troops are needed.
IMO, if anything is needed, it would be SOF.

So just let me make sure i'm clear on this...you think the post-war planning in Iraq was perfect? If it was done all over again you wouldnt have changed anything? Also, try to answer this question before i ask you others...how do you build a grass roots intel system?

Midav
08-29-2004, 04:06 PM
So just let me make sure i'm clear on this...you think the post-war planning in Iraq was perfect? If it was done all over again you wouldnt have changed anything? Also, try to answer this question before i ask you others...how do you build a grass roots intel system?

You are the one that is saying that. I answered that question once already. My answer was no.

If you just want to act foolish, let me know because I have better things to do than debating a fool.

I am just curious what more troops would do in Najaf and other places. The majority of troops, if sent over, would not even be combat related, but rather, support elements.

Hence, why if more troops would be needed, it would be dedicated SOF.

Do you understand or should I type more slowly?

Secret Squirrel
08-29-2004, 04:23 PM
So just let me make sure i'm clear on this...you think the post-war planning in Iraq was perfect? If it was done all over again you wouldnt have changed anything? Also, try to answer this question before i ask you others...how do you build a grass roots intel system?

You are the one that is saying that. I answered that question once already. My answer was no.

If you just want to act foolish, let me know because I have better things to do than debating a fool.

I am just curious what more troops would do in Najaf and other places. The majority of troops, if sent over, would not even be combat related, but rather, support elements.

Hence, why if more troops would be needed, it would be dedicated SOF.

Do you understand or should I type more slowly?

Clearly you should find someone else for your pissing contest because your ideas seem to be coming out of your ass. Is it possible that those who argued for more troops (both before and after the invasion) did so as a possible solution to preventing future problems? Is it possible more troops would have allowed a quicker response to the insurgency that erupted instead of having the marines try to get their armor sent back and others having their TODs extended? Is it possible a great visible security would have contributed to a better grass routes intel system?(you do know what i'm refering to here right? You know, one of those things that are kind of key for beating down an insurgency?). Anyway, the urinal is all yours; try not to piss on yourself too much. ;)

Tane Angle
08-29-2004, 04:27 PM
Midav, I respect your points, but I think that more troops would have helped. For starters, more frequent rotations with more time home can help with morale.

But really, a drone can't stand on a street corner, and most drones can't shoot. A revolt happens in one city, we rush there to end it, but leave a hole in another city. It's sort of like that game "whack-a-mole." We should have had enough troops to cover all the cities at the same time, not just some of them. And Midav, you are right, more than anyone else, we need more SOF folks, but they don't grow on trees.

Moreover, and I'm saying this as someone who works for a PMC: We do not want an overly-large PMC system, but the demand for personnel in Iraq has created one. Five years from now, what will these upstart companies do? Either shut down (and thus we have a lot of unemployed potential-mercenaries) or go mercenary as a company. That's not to say that they that they're bad companies or bad people, just that what will peace do to them? Will the supply, in order to put food on the table, go mercenary and meet a demand? Remember, upstart PMCs don't provide GI education bills the way the military does, so getting a civilian education and a civilian job might not work very well. Companies like BSC, I'm not worried about them at all. It's the upstarts, the little companies founded only for Iraq, that are a risk. And most old-timer PMC folks I've talked with have a similar worry. Having too many unemployed former-PMCers is not a situation we want.

Perhaps even more important than that quantity of the troops is the quality. This is not a dig at our troops. Believe me, I served in the Army and I love it dearly. It's been great to me over the years and in saying this, I am only looking out for its own good, and the good of its members: In terms of average GIs, we weren't ready. The languange, cultural, and peacekeeping/enforcing training wasn't nearly complete or adequate. From what I saw there with my own eyes, a dangerously large number of troops there don't know the difference between a Shiite or a Sunni or a Kurd, much less how to say "hello." Too many of them would rather hit the Imam Ali Mosque and kill a sniper, and win the skirmish, than pull back out of the line of fire and thus win the battle for the hearts and minds of the people. That's not their fault though; the Administration didn't give them enough time to get ready.

Also, there seems to have been this strange thinking that substantial parts of the reconstruction would happen after things were peaceful. No, the way it works is build, under fire, build like crazy because usually the most meaningful "hearts and minds" efforts will need to have been complete six months after the start of the war. Build and there will be more peace, not have peace and there will be more building.

However, having said all this, Midav has shown himself to be one of the most intelligent posters on here and contributes quite a lot of good, much-appreciated posts. Thank you for that, Midav.

Anyways, as always, have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Midav
08-29-2004, 04:39 PM
My ideas are coming out my ass, yet you have no answers for them.

Nice insults, btw. If you actually put half the emphasis into some answers, maybe we could have gotten somewhere.

But, since that is not the case and it's eassier for you to act like a fool , I'll hand back the urinal to you, well, since it is your thread anyway.

I'll find a cleaner place to piss in.

TA-- Thank you and now this is a good discussion. Why I think SOF would be more useful is because of the large percentage between combat forces and support elements, which in the US Army is around 70-30. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We were and already are losing a lot of support people due to a lack of training, wheras this is where SOF excel in.

Also more contractors would be helpful for a period.

However, I also do see your points. Morale is getting low and SOF don't grow on trees. I'm just glad that the military realized this an dis expanding its SOF forces.

However, it will be some time until we see an enlargement....

And thank you for the kind words. Not trying to be modest, but I've never seen myself as being very intelligent p-)