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Ordie
10-23-2011, 01:07 PM
A young man walks into a chaplain's office. Ever since joining the military, he's been feeling a growing sense of alienation. He's known for years that he doesn't believe in God, but he'd like to meet others like himself -- people who are interested in discussing ethics and defining the purpose of their own lives. What will the chaplain do when this non-believer walks in the door? Quote verses from the Bible? Hand him a book by Christopher Hitchens? Or simply send him away?
More: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/10/fighting-for-country-not-for-god/246950/

HollywoodMarine
10-23-2011, 01:12 PM
Send him to BAS for a medical eval.

socom6
10-23-2011, 01:12 PM
God loves soldiers and being in combat one must know you will face your maker whether you like it or not. From ancient times soldiers in armies have always prayed to their Gods, the atheist will always feel out of place.

Hollis
10-23-2011, 01:13 PM
Actually all the reasons people enlist are not the reason why they fight. Turns out they fight for each other.

IMHO, a lot of people make comments and never been in a fighting hole (Marines version of a fox hole), and jump to some big conclusion.

I never saw a chaplain in Viet-Nam, never saw one in the bush, but that does not say they were not there. I read of one who was KIA doing what he does, helping soldiers. I doubt he gave a rats butt on what their belief or non-belief where.

Just like believers who whine, I'll say the same to non-believers who whine, harden the F up. I don't even remember the topic of what one believes, what religion they were or were not or even anyone saying a prayer in Viet-Nam. General topics were, back alley bridge, S.ex (lots of it) when they got back to the world, booze (lots of it and COLD) when they got back to the world, and "crap, I've got ham and mofo" sort of stuff.

HollywoodMarine
10-23-2011, 01:16 PM
Actually all the reasons people enlist are not the reason why they fight. Turns out they fight for each other.
BINGO! I wouldn't do it for any other reason.

flanker7
10-23-2011, 01:18 PM
I agree with that, but I would say that they go to war for their believes(some anyhow) but end up fighting for the guy next to them

Elemental666
10-23-2011, 01:19 PM
God loves soldiers and being in combat one must know you will face your maker whether you like it or not.

I don't think that's a fact.

IMHO etc.

socom6
10-23-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't think that's a fact.

IMHO etc.

I admit, it was a blanket statement from me. But Hollis puts it quite eloquently and succinctly, and he is correct.

Soldat_Américain
10-23-2011, 02:07 PM
You understand that Chaplains are certified counselors right? Chaplains counsel atheists all the time.

Ardaingeal
10-23-2011, 03:50 PM
Torpy makes some fair points, but no surprise that Atlantic goes for another "the military is run by evangelical crazies" article.

Ozzy[NO]
10-23-2011, 04:37 PM
You understand that Chaplains are certified counselors right? Chaplains counsel atheists all the time.

I think(hope) this is more or less the standard in most Western armies these days. Army chaplains are a lot, and should be a lot more than preachers.

spawn_lee
10-23-2011, 05:15 PM
Has this young fella seen combat yet?

click
10-23-2011, 05:16 PM
I am a Christian, and I agree completely with the statements above. I have never been to combat, but I realize it doesnt matter while you are there. Even those most vehemently against what I believe. They are my brothers, and I wouldnt be able to look at myself in the mirror, if I knew I could have done something; anything differently to make sure they come home safe.

spawn_lee
10-23-2011, 05:23 PM
IMO there is something fundamentally wrong with too much diversity in the military. The military is not a constitutional democracy. The individual must adapt to the group, not viceversa. This has nothing to do with being discriminatory. A group too heterogeneous and you lose the important element of cohesion in the military unit.

entheogen
10-23-2011, 05:33 PM
I honestly don't think that it matters. Haven't seen/heard people talk about it much. Sure, if your stuck on a gate or tower for long periods of time, than occasionally you'll start a religion-related conversation, that will usually last about 5 minutes. Other than that... sh**, paycheck, rush, and a good resume for when you out that is all there is... my personal opinion, that is.

muck
10-23-2011, 05:52 PM
Regarding the title; believing in God and "fighting for God" are two different things. Faith is an individual choice and it shouldn't be any different.

I've met plenty of people who've lost their face because of what they've been through, by the way - that's why I reserve a right to question the old saying "there are no atheists in a fox hole" even though I've fortunately never been to combat.

And "fighting for God" is what we should let our enemies do. I'm feeling highly uncomfy about the thought that modern societies produce young soldiers who think they would do.

FrankBooth
10-23-2011, 05:55 PM
More nitpicking for no real good.

Dominique
10-23-2011, 05:59 PM
IMO there is something fundamentally wrong with too much diversity in the military. The military is not a constitutional democracy. The individual must adapt to the group, not viceversa. This has nothing to do with being discriminatory. A group too heterogeneous and you lose the important element of cohesion in the military unit.

So, if the majority of personnel assigned to a particular unit are **********, then when a few straight guys show up, they should engage in ********** activities as well, I mean it's good for the unit, right? Get real, as long as you follow established military procedures, who cares if you believe in God or not, it your business, and no one elses.

FrankBooth
10-23-2011, 06:05 PM
So, if the majority of personnel assigned to a particular unit are **********, then when a few straight guys show up, they should engage in ********** activities as well, I mean it's good for the unit, right? Get real, as long as you follow established military procedures, who cares if you believe in God or not, it your business, and no one elses.

I think he is getting at the constant stream of complaints about what is nothing at the end of the day. News outlets blow them to ridiculous proportions (Like what this article seems to be doing) and if anything creates more divisions. DADT gets repealed, now *******s can't get into the military and for some reason that is a real concern to people.

Soldiers generally know what is what at the end of the day, sometimes people just need attention or like to hear themselves talk.

Plebeian
10-23-2011, 06:11 PM
I'm an atheist, or more precisely an antitheist but I don't understand the need to create an atheist group in the military. Quite frankly I would do away with chaplains too, no need to use taxpayers money to fund any particular brand of cult. Just hire a counsellor for soldiers that need counselling.

If soldiers get discriminated for not following a particular brand of cult, as described in the article, then discipline the officers that are guilty of it and be done with it.

People join the military for all sorts of reasons or a combination of them, to get a job, a career, a citizenship, to get out of the ****hole where they come from, for family tradition and sure some join to serve their country, but like others have said, most fight for each other. I would be worried by someone that claimed he/she was fighting for God and I would definitely consider him/her unfit for service.

muck
10-23-2011, 07:26 PM
I would be worried by someone that claimed he/she was fighting for God and I would definitely consider him/her unfit for service.This.
Nowadays it's mostly our guys and gals against a bunch of backwarded retards who claim exactly the same thing. I wouldn't want to hear the same slogans from our troops.

Ordie
10-23-2011, 07:47 PM
On board my ship, the issue was not the Chaplains. But the Evangelicals amongst the crew who would actively prothletise throughout the ship. They even got to the point of doing street sermons in Olangapo City. I don't know why seem they have a constant urge to convert someone. After a while, I got tired and told them there is not such place called Hell. They went nuts and avoided me for the rest of the cruise.

digrar
10-23-2011, 08:02 PM
Our padres used to preach to about half a dozen people, the rest of the battalion might have been bought up with Christian morales, but were pretty much firm non believers and while being fiercely patriotic, there could be no doubt that we were all about our mates, that was who was important when the **** hit the fan.

Strelok126
10-23-2011, 08:27 PM
God loves soldiers and being in combat one must know you will face your maker whether you like it or not. From ancient times soldiers in armies have always prayed to their Gods, the atheist will always feel out of place.

A nice generalisation.

Plebeian
10-24-2011, 03:55 AM
On board my ship, the issue was not the Chaplains. But the Evangelicals amongst the crew who would actively prothletise throughout the ship. They even got to the point of doing street sermons in Olangapo City. I don't know why seem they have a constant urge to convert someone. After a while, I got tired and told them there is not such place called Hell. They went nuts and avoided me for the rest of the cruise.

All three Abrahamic religions command their followers to recruit new "souls" through preaching some way or another in order to spread the cult. That's why asking religious people to keep their religion to themselves is, ultimately, an oxymoron in itself.

Ordie
10-24-2011, 04:23 AM
All three Abrahamic religions command their followers to recruit new "souls" through preaching some way or another in order to spread the cult. That's why asking religious people to keep their religion to themselves is, ultimately, an oxymoron in itself.

I don't know about that?
I've never been approached by Jews trying to convert me, (or retro-convert me since Jesus was Jewish)

muck
10-24-2011, 04:41 AM
All three Abrahamic religions command their followers to recruit new "souls" through preaching some way or another in order to spread the cult. That's why asking religious people to keep their religion to themselves is, ultimately, an oxymoron in itself.We're living in the 21st century and our consitutions grant freedom of religion. Someone who tries to shove their religious ideas down my throat is an annoyance at best and violating my basic rights at worst.

Plebeian
10-24-2011, 04:55 AM
I don't know about that?
I've never been approached by Jews trying to convert me, (or retro-convert me since Jesus was Jewish)

Me neither. So far I've had Christians, Muslims and Jehovah's witnesses, the last ones being the most annoying, specially on a Sunday morning, but easily dealt with by opening the door with a visible ***** and a creepy smile :lol:

A matter of location I suppose.

Plebeian
10-24-2011, 04:58 AM
We're living in the 21st century and our consitutions grant freedom of religion. Someone who tries to shove their religious ideas down my throat is an annoyance at best and violating my basic rights at worst.

While true, I'm not quite sure that explanation of yours will put them off. Here's a more effective suggestion to stop the unwanted preaching :slap:

Roebuck
10-24-2011, 05:04 AM
We're living in the 21st century and our consitutions grant freedom of religion. Someone who tries to shove their religious ideas down my throat is an annoyance at best and violating my basic rights at worst.

If we use this logic, then we'd be imprisoning anyone who speaks about their religion. You sound like one of those folks who gets their ******* in a bunch over the cross at ground zero.

what a miserable existence life must be for you, getting offended at such trivial non important things everywhere you go. I feel sorry for you.

muck
10-24-2011, 05:59 AM
That's definitely not the logic which I've suggested to employ. There's a ginormous difference between the use of religious symbols in public - which I fully approve - and active attempts to convert someone else. Most Western nations were shaped by Christianity, so it's perfectly legit to grant this religion a special status even within a secular society. However, actively prothletising in a manner that could disturb people is not.

Atlantic Friend
10-24-2011, 06:13 AM
What will the chaplain do when this non-believer walks in the door?

Talk to him at great lengths if the chap wants to, I suppose. I haven't met too many Christian priests who refuse to talk to people who aren't already a part of their flock. And I think any agnostic/atheist really eager to discuss ethics and the sense of life can learn a lot from talking to a man of the cloth, if only to see deeper in himself and his lack of religious belief.