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DE_Six
08-29-2004, 10:12 PM
http://globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040827-bin-laden.htm



The Atlanta Journal-Constitution August 27, 2004

Would bin Laden prefer Bush or Kerry?
by Dan Chapman

At a John Kerry campaign stop in Ohio last month, children in Bush-Cheney T-shirts greeted the Democrat by passing outfliers that read: "If you were Osama, who would you want to win the election?"
A week earlier in Kentucky, bumper stickers appeared in Louisville saying, "Kerry is bin Laden's Man/Bush is Mine."
Jack Richardson IV, chairman of the Jefferson County Republican Party, was smitten with the sticker's anti-Kerry sentiment.

"Is there anybody that can honestly say bin Laden wouldn't prefer Kerry over Bush?" Richardson asked, adding that Kerry's U.S. Senate voting record wasn't sufficiently tough on terror. "If I was in bin Laden's shoes, I sure as heck would want Kerry."

Bin Laden hasn't commented publicly about the presidential election. But that hasn't kept partisans in the United States from divining the political desires of the terrorist mastermind.

While some Republicans claim that Osama wants Kerry, a recent Doonesbury comic suggests that bin Laden wants Bush. The strip blames the Iraq war for creating "an incubator for a whole new generation of holy warriors" and for "so carelessly squandering America's moral authority."
"May he be re-elected! God willing!" the final captions read. "I'm Osama bin Laden, and I approve this message."

Juan Cole, a Middle East expert at the University of Michigan, sides with Doonesbury.

"My guess is that al-Qaida wants Bush," he said, adding that Bush has become the poster boy for jihadi recruiters seeking men, money and munitions to fight the invading American infidels. Cole cites Bush's unequivocal support for Israel and the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as fuel for bin Laden's anti-American fervor.

"Their message is that Americans are coming to invade your country, rape your women and humiliate your men. They wanted the U.S. to attack Afghanistan [and] Iraq," Cole said. "Al-Qaida wants a series of escalating fights so that, ultimately, they'll have a really big battle. They think Bush is a sucker for this."

The war on terror, and how the next administration pursues it, is the dominant theme of this too-close-to-call presidential election. Not since 1968, when Richard Nixon battled Hubert H. Humphrey as the war in Vietnam raged, has America's role in the world been so hotly contested.
With the country so bitterly divided, Bush and Kerry try to one-up each other on who will make America safer.

Bush projects the image of battle-tested commander-in-chief promising to protect Americans in a dangerous world. Kerry, who never fails to invoke his Vietnam experience, counters that Bush's foreign policy has spawned hatred of the United States and exposed Americans to even greater danger from terrorists.

Attacks elsewhere

Al-Qaida hasn't struck the United States since Sept. 11, 2001. But the terrorist group has since undertaken numerous attacks outside the United States including the synchronized bombings of commuter trains in Madrid last March that killed 191.

"It continues to be something of a curiosity that there has not been another attack. We don't know why. Surely part of it must be the success of various efforts to suppress al-Qaida over the last three years," said John Pike, a defense analyst with GlobalSecurity.org, a Washington think tank that studies security threats."We're probably safer, but not nearly as safe as we could be."

Although Americans tend to favor Bush over Kerry to fight the war on terror, Bush's poll numbers have been slipping.In January, 68 percent of Americans approved of Bush's handling of the campaign against terrorism, according to a CBS News Poll. In mid-August, 53 percent did. And a Gallup Poll shows that Americans are evenly split on whether the Iraq War — the centerpiece of the Bush war on terror — was worth fighting: 49 percent say it was; 48 percent say it wasn't; the margin of error is plus or minus 5 percentage points.
Polls aren't the administration's only problem.

"The Bush people are frightened by the possibility of the Madrid syndrome getting hold of them," Pike said. "A well-timed terrorist attack flipped the election and drove the incumbent out of office."

Election aftershocks

Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar sided with Bush and sent troops to Iraq last year, upsetting most Spaniards. Aznar, in the hours after the March 11 bombings, tried to blame Basque separatists for the attacks, when the evidence clearly pointed to al-Qaida's involvement.
Aznar was ousted in the elections a few days later, and the new government pulled its troops from Iraq. What happened in Spain has analysts wondering: If bin Laden strikes the United States, say, in late October, would Bush lose the election?

"It's possible the American public would interpret the attack as a failure of the Bush administration," professor Cole said. "Already, the rhetoric on the Democratic side [says] that the president had three years to deal with this threat and he failed. The fact that he let bin Laden escape capture will rise in the public consciousness."

Patrick Basham, a senior fellow at The Cato Institute, a Libertarian think tank in Washington, notes that foreign policy troubles during election years have often redounded in favor of the incumbent. Voters tend to trust a candidate more who has withstood calamity and kept the nation intact.

"Historically, traditionally, a serious national security crisis, as any successful attack would be viewed, has helped the incumbent," Basham said. "I still think, to go out on a limb, that the most likely type of attack would be a suicide bombing or a car bombing. And we would continue to see a rallying around the flag."

John Zogby, a pollster, says that politically, "an attack won't matter much."

"The country is split on George W. Bush and hyper-emotional on both sides. There's not much pliability or elasticity here," said Zogby, whose polling clients include The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

"In case of a major event, you'll still have a bedrock solid group of voters who just hate George W. Bush's guts. There'll be no big [poll] bounce from anything."

But if there's one thing incumbent presidents hate, according to Cole, it's "looking like they're not in control."

Republican Pollster Ed Goeas agrees.

"If I perceive a total breakdown in intelligence, as opposed to terrorists just being right 1 percent of the time and getting through, I would assume that there would be a negative [political] reaction," he said.
A terrorist attack could trip up the challenger, too.

"John Kerry's reaction to any terrorist attack is arguably more important and, unfortunately for John Kerry, harder because he will have to appear patriotic and supportive of Bush," said Basham. "Yet he must appear to differentiate himself in some way that gives him some advantage to voters who are questioning Bush.

"It's a real tightrope," he continued. "Kerry cannot in any way be seen as celebrating this failure of the Bush administration."

No clear choice

The CIA analyst who wrote "Imperial Hubris, Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror" says Bush gave bin Laden "a Christmas present" by invading Iraq.

"The gift he received from Washington will haunt, hurt and hound Americans for years to come," wrote the author, who is anonymous. "We are, overall, in a hell of a fix."

But that doesn't mean bin Laden necessarily wants Kerry to be the next president.

"If you take Kerry at his word, it would appear that he would do less to irritate, rightly or wrongly, the fundamentalist Arab world," Basham said. But "there is every reason to believe that a Kerry administration, at this point in the nation's political evolution and context, would pursue an equally aggressive policy against al-Qaida."

Pollster Goeas said bin Laden doesn't care who prevails on Nov. 2.
"He's not trying to help one side win or the other," Goeas said. "He just wants to kill Americans."

© Copyright 2004, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Good and not-so-good points by both sides. Not sure I trust the Doonesbury connection, but it's got serious supporters.

I agree wholeheartedly with the closing thought, though.

scm77
08-29-2004, 10:33 PM
There was an article I read a week or so ago, kinda like this.

It was saying again how if there was another terrorist attack, it could be bad for Bush because he didn't stop it. But overwhelmingly most people agreed that it would be better for Bush because the country would rally around him like they did after 9/11. They would have that we want blood attitude back.

DE_Six
08-29-2004, 11:20 PM
I don't know, I'm not sure about this. I think another attack (God forbids) would only be beneficial to Bush if he could effectively and clearly retaliate, thus clenching the "thirst for revenge".

Should an attack go apparently unpunished or improperly so, this could lead more people to believe that president Bush is unfit to defend America. For example, if it was clear that bin Laden was behind the second attack, his capture would become a sine qua nonecondition of victory in the eyes of the US public. Nevermind that such a capture would not necessarily deal a fatal blow to AQ, it might be needed to comfort the US population. If president Bush failed to achieve the capture, he would be liable to appear as incapable of nailing the man who plotted not one, but two attacks on US soil. It's hard to blame him for 9/11, since it was impossible to know exactly when it was going to happen, that previous administrations had failed to deter them too, and for other reasons. But a second attack? He would be hard pressed to justify his inadequacies, has the country is in a heightened state of alert since 9/11. His critics could well convince voters that the current administration failed to fight terror and use the Iraq war as prime example and shift the balance. On the other hand, if the attack was perceived as undeterrable, then president Bush would have an edge, as some voters would probably stick with him, given the rather successful reaction against terror immediately after 9/11, rather than start over with a new administration. It would be down to trust, I guess.

Anyway,

Secret Squirrel
08-29-2004, 11:35 PM
I guess my question to you DE6, or anyone really, is what would be the reaction by the Bush administration if another attack does occur on U.S soil before the elections? Would it give more weight to the argument that the Iraq invasion was just a massive diversion from the real war on terror? Of course if Iraq wasnt invaded in 2003 then perhaps people would be calling for an invasion? I still remember seeing an interview on 9/11 given by (I believe) a retired CIA intel analyst who argued for a tactical nuclear strike against Iraq. Obviously he was speaking with a lot of passion and anger, which probably clouded his judgement but I think it elucidates my point. Should another attack occur, who is going to be the recipient of the "wrath"? (before anyone go off the handle and screams out various countries and whatnot, please put your answers in the context of reality;ie. current military obligations and resources...etc).

SeanAshi
08-29-2004, 11:47 PM
Should another attack occur, who is going to be the recipient of the "wrath"? (before anyone go off the handle and screams out various countries and whatnot, please put your answers in the context of reality;ie. current military obligations and resources...etc).Whatever country is behind the "attack". *edit* Or...do absolutely nothing. Would that make you feel better?

DE_Six
08-30-2004, 12:09 AM
Well, if you ask me, it would be down to wether or not the response to a second strike was successful. By successful, I mean a retaliation that would be both spectacular and effective, or better yet decisive. The exact opposite of say, the 1998 TLAM strikes against AQ camps in Afghanistan.

First, because even though the US is on the lookout for the next attack, it is impossible to entirely prevent an attack from occuring again. It may not be as spectacular as hijacked airliners crashing into skyscrapers, but it could be equally or even more deadly. AQ (and terrorism in general)'s strength lies in its unpredictable nature. It is not possible for a country to foresee every next move, much less for a free and open nation like the US. Dictatorships cannot prevent terrorism, much less democracies. The only hope really lies in intelligence, to catch the next trend, or eavesdrop on the right person at the right time, build a network of informants (which are hard to insert inside strongly ideological groups, btw) first, and in the long run, by a coherent political plan bound on weakening support for terror (I'm talking nation-building mostly here). I think the US is on the right track for the first, not so much for the second, but the effort exists.


So if we can't know for sure if we're doing the right thing, how exactly does one measure the effectiveness of the war on terror so far? An all-knowing being could answer that it is measured by the number of attacks thwarted, but no one knows that number. So unless there is another attack, so far the war is going strong for us. But if there is another attack, is it because those responsible for national security utterly failed or because it is the one lucky fish who got through the net? Is the next attack the result of unwarranted attention to Iraq (which leaves other potential nests undisturbed in turn), or was Iraq the right target? As we can't possibly strike all potential harbors of terrorism, which one to strike first? My opinion is that we can't really measure success as we go. Every move in the war on terror has pros and cons and lots of unknown variables. It's a series of what if...

Which brings me to my conclusion that it boils down to reaction, not deterrence. If another attack occurs, the Bush administration will be cornered. Because the public opinion won't ponder the impossibility of measuring success in the war on terror while people die. They will need to be wowed by a spectacular response, otherwise they will turn to another alternatives, even if reason commands that there is no guarantee another president will succeed where two already failed.

As for the blame game, well IMHO, those who perceive president Bush as the biggest threat to US national security will blame him, and those who think terrorists are the real threat will blame the terrorists.

I'll blame the terrorists, not because I'm a staunch Bush supporter, but because I believe that nihilistic terrorists like AQ will strike America no matter what it does. Might as well strike back.

Secret Squirrel
08-30-2004, 12:19 AM
Which brings me to my conclusion that it boils down to reaction. If another attack occurs, the Bush administration will be cornered. Because the public opinion won't ponder the impossibility of measuring success in the war on terror while people die. They will need to be wowed by a spectacular response, otherwise they will turn to another alternatives, even if reason commands that there is no guarantee another president will succeed where two already failed.

well said. You've nicely elucidated the fog of war surrounding the war on terror. Who do you strike if AQ hit's U.S soil again? Who do you make an example out of? Do you push for an influx of troops into Ghanny? Or are plans going to be drawn up for Iran? Will the population feel a sense of futility because AQ doesnt represent a country but rather a liquid entity? I guess in a sense, the war on terror isnt one that provides easy PR because it's mostly an intelligence war.

DE_Six
08-30-2004, 01:16 AM
Your last sentence couldn't ring any more true.

The media age has turned people into news junkies and the public expect results as fast as events unfold. And a war on terror is the last thing you can publicize. It's slow-paced, a long term affair, success are quiet and failures resounding.

Personnally, I wouldn't invade another country. US forces will reach a breaking point somewhere. So unless the host nation defiantly host terrorists and refuse to cooperate (as Afghanistan did after 9/11), no invasion is necessary. I would however increase the ranks of intelligence and special operations and dispatch them largely everywhere there is a risk of nesting. But that involves a restructuration of forces I am not sure the US armed forces establishment wants to happen. If it had not been for Rumsfeld's affection and lobbying for SOF, Afghanistan would arguably have been different.

For spectacle purposes, I would stage hits on terror operatives. Say you capture an AQ operative. Once you're done interrogating him, you stage his assassination, trying to cover it but really leaking it to the press. Ostensibly fake a cover-up, deny it but fuel the rumors. Thus giving the impression that you are ruthlessly tracking them, even if in reality, just catching killing a terrorist amounts to little if you can't get information out of him first. It awes public opinion, spur their imagination. The Mossad was a big fan of such ops after 1972. Check their reputation now...

That and a solid, coherent foreign policy. Dump Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, those are not allies, they're burdens. Instead of invading a new country, just dump old acquaintances. There's oil elsewhere, or better yet, alternative fuels. Start a real effort in nation-building, reduce american presence oversea, not to comply with terrorists, but to reduce vulnerability. The funds can be then redirected to the creation of a real rapid-deployment force. Heavy armor is neat to topple regimes, but covert operations can do it too at a lesser price, and tanks are helpless against terrorists.

Iran would be a nice place to start. I can tell you most Iranians are behind the moderates (and quite favorable to the West), not the ayatollahs. So instead of invading, let's just corrupt the system to a point of implosion. Then we can offer support to the new regime (which we helped put in place anyway).

Of course, that's just me. Its's all highly hypothetical, but since you asked... p-)

Opening Batsman
08-30-2004, 02:51 AM
I will probably get flamed to the ends of the earth for saying this, but Osama bin Laden really is one of the greatest men in history. I don't agree with what he does, but he doesn't agree with what I do. Just my opinion.

Tane Angle
08-30-2004, 02:57 AM
Auzzzie, don't worry, I'm not flaming you in saying this, but would you care to elaborate and say more, or would you rather not? Do you mean literally great, as in good? Or great as in powerful and influential? If you'd rather not answer though, that's fine, bud.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Opening Batsman
08-30-2004, 03:05 AM
Auzzzie, don't worry, I'm not flaming you in saying this, but would you care to elaborate and say more, or would you rather not? Do you mean literally great, as in good? Or great as in powerful and influential? If you'd rather not answer though, that's fine, bud.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Yup, sure thing! Firstly, I just want to make it clear that I don't support him and that I would put a bullet in his brains if I had the chance.

OK, I really do respect him for what he has done. Not for killing innocent people, but for believing in his cause and doing his utmost to realise his beliefs, and succeeding. Taking on the biggest fish in the sea and whooping their ass. For inspiring so many people to the extent that they gladly give their lives to their cause. And the resoursefulness he must have, the imagination, he really must be a genius. Starting up a highly professional world wide organization on his own.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf
Have a squizz at the Al Qaeda manual, well worth the read!

DE_Six
08-30-2004, 03:32 AM
Wow...

It's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

My take on it:


I really do respect him for what he has done

You say otherwise, I know, but his great life achievements are just that, killing innocent people.



...for believing in his cause and doing his utmost to realise his beliefs, and succeeding...

Yeah, so did Hitler. It would apply perfectly. A dream of bloody retribution on the infidels. I wish he had failed in everything he ever undertook.


taking on the biggest fish in the sea and whooping their ass

Killing 3, 000 innocent people, you call that an ass-whooping? And the sicko who rapes and butchers a child, is he giving her an ass-whooping?


For inspiring so many people to the extent that they gladly give their lives to their cause.

Brainwashing people to commit mass murder to fulfill your twisted ideals...drawing on the misery of certain and gullibility of others.


And the resoursefulness he must have, the imagination, he really must be a genius

Money. Good advisors. Experience. It's not like he woke up enlightened one fine day.

I agree, he's an important man. A genius, I don't know, but certainly smart.

He's much like Hitler, Stalin and other great tyrants. He'll change history, but not in a good way. Influential, important, maybe. But a great man? That's a slap in the face of all the great men that walked this earth and to a lesser extent, to all decent human beings.

Just my .02$

Opening Batsman
08-30-2004, 03:51 AM
I really do respect him for what he has done

You say otherwise, I know, but his great life achievements are just that, killing innocent people.

Yup, he has done some horrible things.




...for believing in his cause and doing his utmost to realise his beliefs, and succeeding...

Yeah, so did Hitler. It would apply perfectly. A dream of bloody retribution on the infidels. I wish he had failed in everything he ever undertook.

So did Nelson Mandela.



taking on the biggest fish in the sea and whooping their ass

Killing 3, 000 innocent people, you call that an ass-whooping? And the sicko who rapes and butchers a child, is he giving her an ass-whooping?

He was the underdog by far, not like that sicko. And to put it plainly, and you have to agree, yes it was an ass-whooping.



For inspiring so many people to the extent that they gladly give their lives to their cause.

Brainwashing people to commit mass murder to fulfill your twisted ideals...drawing on the misery of certain and gullibility of others.

Hmm... One man's opinion.



And the resoursefulness he must have, the imagination, he really must be a genius

Money. Good advisors. Experience. It's not like he woke up enlightened one fine day.

I don't think that that is all it takes.


Just my .02$

Fair enough! :) And that is mine. :D

DE_Six
08-30-2004, 01:38 PM
It's your opinion, fair enough indeed. :)

One thing though:


...and you have to agree, yes it was an ass-whooping.

No, I'll never agree with this. Killing innocents will never be an ass-whooping in my book.
It's barbarian, monstrous to deliberately slaughter innocents. There is nothing admirable to it.