Is Kerry Exploiting Vietnam?

[scm77]

This just came to me when I was watching CNNs coverage of the convention last night. They were talking about how Bush needs to be careful not to exploit 9/11 for political gain.

So I started thinking, is Kerry exploiting Vietnam for political gain?

Think...If Kerry talks about his leadership during Vietnam people say he's just talking about his record and his history. But if Bush talks about 9/11, or someone on his campaign talks about his leadership he/they is/are exploiting it.

So is Kerry exploiting Vietnam, or is the left wing saying Bush is exploiting 9/11 just because they don't want people to remember his leadership during that time?

[hist2004]

Kerry made the mistake of focusing on his service in Vietnam as the
corner stone for his eligibility to be commander-in-chief (President).
Once you enter something into court as the lawyers say, your open for
“cross- examination”. By remaining silent to the swift boat critics, and
offering a “no its as I said”, Kerry fueled the debate himself. By not releasing
his records from the outset (as Bush was hounded to do, and finally did)
you make people wonder. Kerry’s people figure that it will die down and
the liberal media won’t hammer him on it. Problem is he’s lost 3 weeks
in August over this, a week of remembrance for Ronald Reagan, and now
the Republican Convention.

Regards,
Hist2004

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Interesting post.

IMHO Kerry is not "exploiting" his Vietnam service. Like anything that a person does, he's entitled to all the praise or criticism resulting from it. I'm just curious as to why he would focus so much on it - -given his history - the revised awards - throwing his medals away - admitting to war crimes - etc....one has to question the wisdom of even bringing it up.

In the same manner, I think Bush is fully entitled to reference his performance during the 9/11 period. If he did a poor job - it could be equally as quickly pointed out. Like some commentator said last night - Bush running for reelection without mentioning 9/11 would be like President Lincoln (if he hadn't been killed) running for reelection without mentioning the Civil War. It would be absurd to expect it to be off limits.

[BlackRain]

You mean exploiting Vietnam like this?


Francis Zwenig, staff director for the Committee, who was often seen during hearings whispering in Kerry's ear, became Vice President of the U.S. - Vietnam Trade Council. Ms Zwenig, who helped shaped the conclusion of the committee and its final report was now benefitting financially from the committee's efforts to close the POW/MIA issue.

In June of 1993, as reported in a Boston Herald article by Michael E. Knell, "Colliers International brokered a $905 million dollar deal to develop a deep sea port in Vietnam.." To skirt the trade embargo still in effect against Vietnam, Colliers International acted through its partner firm Colliers Jardine based in Singapore. At the time the deal was brokered, C. Stewart Forbes was the Chief Executive Officer of Colliers International.

All through 1993 and into early 1994, John Kerry pushed for the lifting of the trade embargo against Vietnam, citing of Vietnamese cooperation on the POW/MIA issue. As evidenced in the articles of Sydney Schanberg and scripted event involving Senator Kerry and Col. Pham Duc Dia, Vietnamese cooperation was clearly a myth.

Yet, Kerry persisted in his campaign to lift the trade embargo. Finally, his efforts were rewarded in February 1994, when President Clinton lifted the embargo.

Did Kerry have an another agenda, beyond the stated goals of the committee?

Before you answer that question, there is one other piece of information you need to know. C. Stewart Forbes CEO of Colliers International and John Forbes Kerry are cousins.

Did financial gain motivate Kerry's actions as Chairman of the Select Committee?

Perhaps someone in the media will ask the question.

[Hiroshima]

Should be another one...is Bush exploiting 9/11? *sighs* I'm all for political clout..but for crying out loud, I want the **** hanging around 9/11 to just ****ing go away!

[SpazzMunky]

IMO, yes, kerry is exploiting Vietnam for political gain. Just Like Bush is exploiting 9-11.

And I agree with Hiroshima, the 9-11 horse is long dead, but its still being beaten.

[Hiroshima]

I almost lost my father in 9/11......I can't go into the 9/11 section of the Smithstonian in DC....I can't watch tv on 9/11, I can't read a newspaper.... Now the RNC is in NYC, playing on 9/11....9/11 isn't Bush's greatest glory....it's Bush's greatest failure....it shouldn't have happened.... there was a security brief with the details in it, the folks carrying them were told by Bush to leave him alone, he was on holiday. It could have been prevented.....and where was he when it happened...reading My Pet Goat....and why hadn't the Secret Service just scooped him up, tossed him on a plane, and got him to a secure location?

[usa320]

Should be another one...is Bush exploiting 9/11? *sighs* I'm all for political clout..but for crying out loud, I want the **** hanging around 9/11 to just f*** go away!

As difficult as the memories may be, you cannot just wish them away. You cannot forget what happened there, who did it, who died there and those that sacrificed to help there.

[Hiroshima]

Wanna bet? I'm an American male....my memory is crap like the rest of them. Now, before anyone complains, that's a poke at my gender. Now this is what I'd like to say....I don't need to be constantly reminded of that day. I don't need to continually hear it, the reason why the towers fell, what happened, Bin Laden's biography......I don't need any of it. You don't hear about the slaughter of unarmed settlers by indian tribes (ok ok..Native American tribes..though decendents of hunter gatherers from across the asian-american landbridge hardly counts as native)....we've stopped talking about the bombing in Oklahoma City really.....there's hardly any mention of other tragedies in the media....earthquakes....heck, the floods in the great plains are hardly a foot note now.

Oh, and for as who did this, why didn't be go after Saudi Arabia? Since Bin Laden is a Saudi, and the majority of highjackers were Saudi?

[Seiyuuki]

I almost lost my father in 9/11......I can't go into the 9/11 section of the Smithstonian in DC....I can't watch tv on 9/11, I can't read a newspaper.... Now the RNC is in NYC, playing on 9/11....9/11 isn't Bush's greatest glory....it's Bush's greatest failure....it shouldn't have happened.... there was a security brief with the details in it, the folks carrying them were told by Bush to leave him alone, he was on holiday. It could have been prevented.....and where was he when it happened...reading My Pet Goat....and why hadn't the Secret Service just scooped him up, tossed him on a plane, and got him to a secure location?

I'm sorry for your near-loss, but 9/11 isn't a glory for anyone or anything, the failures, as we spent millions of dollar to confirm, lie with the bureaucracy, Clinton, Bush, the system, etc...We can spend years debating details, or browse through plenty of reliable sources around now, the 9/11 Commission's report, the Senate Intelligence's investigation, Great Britain own investigation, etc...It's easy for us to say what we would have or not done, but then again, none of us were the president and in his shoes at the moment. The Secret Service did "scooped him up, tossed him on a plane, and got him to a secure location," just not as fast as some of us have wanted...

9/11 was, for lack of better word, a defining moment for Bush's presidency, just as Pearl Harbor was for FDR. As such, it is an election year and what he done since and how it had change the policies of his administration is a key issue. Likewise, FDR ran for re-election with the remembrance of Pearl Harbor.

Since 9/11 drastically affected the policies of this nation, it is only natural that it would be the focus of all aspect of politics. The Democrats had their remembrance for 9/11 at their convention and so did the Republicans.

On Kerry disposition, it is not so much "exploitation." Just like you would put past successful experiences on a resume to get hire for a job, Kerry, in a sense, is doing the same thing. The details and whether he should have follow McCain's advice to keep quiet are up for discussion, but he has the right to make references to past experience to show that he can be the proper CnC. Just like a proper interviewer would call past employers and question your past experiences, Kerry's experiences in Vietnam are being question. He was willing to put it on his resume, so he has to be willing to provide answers when questions are asked.

[Hiroshima]

I can accept rememberances and small ceramonies...but for crying out loud....I heard it at least several times while waiting for actual news to come on.....otherwise, I can't argue at all with anyhting you said beyond that.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Gat dang it, I just had a 1/2 gallon 7-11 coffee, and I feel a rant coming on. Yes...yes...here..it..comes...aaannnndd...

Yes, let's all forget 9/11, shall we? We can re-bury our heads in the sand, and avoid all mention of it. Of course that means it will likely happen again, very soon, since we will have failed to prepare and defend ourselves.

What kind of logic is used to at once condemn an administration for lack or preparedness, then also turn around and condemn them for forcing us to face facts? You can't have it both ways, lads.

When talking to my leftie friends (I grew up with many "trust fund" kids who never had to grow up) I've noticed a peculiar thread running through their thinking. Like some kind of perverse Pavlovian dogs, they automatically associate Bush with overwhelming negativity - as if Bush alone is the cause for terror - Bush is the reason we were attacked - Bush brought these bad things upon us. If only Bush would go away, we could go back to worrying about trivial things like ****** on blue dresses, bloated IRAs, and which overvalued IPO to go with.

This is the worst kind of misplaced blame - truly scapegoatism at it's best. It's really as if these people are unwilling or unable to understand the complex world we live in, and simply pile all their blame and hatred on Bush - since he's been the only one to actually do anything about it.
Yes, it is unpleasant, and he reminds us of it constantly - but that's his job after all. The ****ty, mean, murderous, despicable, complicated world is not going to change the day that the Bush administration loads up the Ryder truck & heads for Texas.

The world of blissful ignorance is gone, we cannot go back. Having a President who understands that American leadership should place America first is a tremendous asset. A President who would wait for Europe or the UN to make decisions is not a leader, he is by definition a follower. We are not electing a follower. My gardener could do that job satisfactorily.

Bush was on the job on 9/11, so he deserves whatever credit or blame can be heaped upon his subsequent performance. To make the war "off limits" to a wartime President is nonsense. How else can you gauge his performance...by his choice of suits? It's been far and away the number one issue over the past 4 years - and we're not supposed to talk about it?

If people (or candidates) are not allowed to make references to the major accomplishments in their lives, how are we to judge them? Who decides what's in and what's out? Since the Senate is a highly politicized arena, like 9/11 was - should Kerry not be able to reference his work over the last 19 years?

This is not the same as taking singular credit for group accomplishments. Bush is not stating that he personally strapped on an AR-15 and went to war overseas to fight terror. He is talking about his role in the process. He's not claiming he invented the Internet. He doesn't purport to have pulled Saddam out of his spider hole himself. But he did function as President, and is entitled to be judged positively or negatively based on what he did. If you don't want to allow him that, look deep inside and ask why that is?

Could it be that although your missing chromosome makes you automatically dislike him, and dislike the aggressive moves America has made - that you secretly admire his accomplishments? That you subconsciously enjoy the fact that under his leadership, America has pwned enemies who for decades have thumbed their noses at us? Yes, you feel it don't you? I can see your heart glowing red like ET as you think about it. And your finger tip is glowing like the Thiokol TX-481 solid-propellant rocket motor on a Maverick AGM-65G.

Embrace your inner right-winger, and soak in the accomplishments, free of the artificial guilt youv'e been taught to feel. Forget about what you've been told to think by the relics from the 60's - all wars are not Vietnam, and needn't be viewed the same way. Give up all that hatred, put down that hand cream, towel off, and tear down your posters of Che Guevara. Also take down the one of Jenna Jameson too - you know your GF doesn't like it.

[Hiroshima]

Yes, let's all forget 9/11, shall we? We can re-bury our heads in the sand, and avoid all mention of it. Of course that means it will likely happen again, very soon, since we will have failed to prepare and defend ourselves.

> Seems you never had the trauma. I want it dropped, not forgotten you moron! And small point in fact, there was a report saying that there might be an attack using commercial airliners before 9/11 happened. This report was made in the current administration's time, meaning that 'good old boy' was asleep at the switch.

The world of blissful ignorance is gone, we cannot go back. Having a President who understands that American leadership should place America first is a tremendous asset. A President who would wait for Europe or the UN to make decisions is not a leader, he is by definition a follower. We are not electing a follower. My gardener could do that job satisfactorily.

> For the average civilian, yes, but having been a nuclear target most of the time (that was an great realization when living in England because my folks were stationed there), I was never ignorant that we were safe, since I trusted our President and military forces, especially after the first attack on the World Trade Center (And boy, that was not funny looking at the building with smoke pouring from it), would take steps to protect us without making massive loopholes for the government to illegally detain people through simple labling.
>A President waiting for Europe and the UN is staying true to our agreements, since the United Nation can call on greater amounts of military forces against us. NATO still exists, and we still have to play ball with them, being the World's Poliece force. Bush was right...he's is a Uniter....world opinion has swung against us....and before you scoff at it, we're heavilly depended on foriegn oil, and foriegn markets for our goods. Best way to screw us over is suddenly only be able to sell to Mexico and Canada....
> Does your Gardener have a Green Card? Did you know most of the normal citizens don't want to do around the US are done by illegal or brand new immigrants? I'm sure the person you pay is good at being a follower, so that's a pretty piss-poor example.

Bush was on the job on 9/11, so he deserves whatever credit or blame can be heaped upon his subsequent performance.

> Really now? Reading My Pet Goat is on the job??? Sitting there with a look of 'What do I do now?' He could have told the kids that 'Pardon me, my young friends, but something has come up. I will be back later to see how well you've progressed. But for now, keep up the good work!' If sitting there reading..or mock reading, My Pet Goat is on the job, sign me up. Though I'm sure my pet goat could do a better job.



Could it be that although your missing chromosome makes you automatically dislike him, and dislike the aggressive moves America has made - that you secretly admire his accomplishments? That you subconsciously enjoy the fact that under his leadership, America has pwned enemies who for decades have thumbed their noses at us? Yes, you feel it don't you? I can see your heart glowing red like ET as you think about it. And your finger tip is glowing like the Thiokol TX-481 solid-propellant rocket motor on a Maverick AGM-65G.

>I'm afraid that I don't secretly admire most of Bush's accomplishments. I liked his work in Afganistan, and some of the explosions in Iraq were quiet nice, we havn't gotten anyone who's really thumbed their noses at us. The taliban didn't give a rat's behind about us till we said hand over Bin Laden, and Saddam was quiet content to sit there and just torment the people in his country, since the majority of his military was either killed/captured/nullified from the first Gulf War. I wanted the Russians beaten up, Cuba, and China.....these are the people who've REALLY thumbed their noses....How about North Korea? They were hopping up and down waving the fact they have nukes at us....and look, they're still a tyrranical government! I love it...we go after the small fish, people that were abolutely no threat to us....yes yes, I know Saddam payed off Palastinians to blow themselves up in Isreal...but that's Isreal, not the US. And the massive debt....wow...I'm sooooooo proud of Bush for that...I admire his ability to spend money, to waste money on stupid ideas like Tax rebates and tax cuts...then turn around, make war which costs billions of dollars now-a-days, make a whole new pepartment, school vouchers, that dumb idea where you have to force schools to improve teaching students, test the students, nad if they do poorly over the years, cut funding to said school, then close it down and send students to schools that are doing well (there by making those schools worse..), a clean air act that doesn't clean the air at all, the loss of high paying jobs overseas.......I'm so very very jealous of Bush.... Try some White Phosphorous, it'll give you that same burning sensation. ;)

Embrace your inner right-winger, and soak in the accomplishments, free of the artificial guilt youv'e been taught to feel.

>No thanks.....and I've never felt guilty feeling the way I do about my beliefs on this matter. :D

[scm77]

Why is their so many people (in the media, in the left) saying George Bush and the Republicans are exploiting 9/11 and they should stop but they have no problem with Kerry basing his entire campaign on Vietnam.

Alot more people died in Vietnam.

[Navy]

Did you see McCain at Fox?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The rest of your rambling and mostly incoherent post aside, I found this noteworthy.


> Does your Gardener have a Green Card? Did you know most of the normal citizens don't want to do around the US are done by illegal or brand new immigrants? I'm sure the person you pay is good at being a follower, so that's a pretty piss-poor example.


I can't begin to follow this. Are you saying that the average gardener is fully qualified to be the President, but mine isn't, because he's a follower? But if he is a follower, then that makes my point...so what are you saying? I'm afraid most of your other comments followed in a similar vein, and were rather a loose chain of Internet bad-boy non-sequitur hooey.

As an aside, I'm not sure exactly what immigration policy or my Gardener's immigration status has to do with anything (he's a middle aged white guy from New Hampshire BTW).

Thanks for clearing up your positions on the major issues of the day. So tax cuts, tax rebates, and improving schools are bad ideas, and letting Saddam brutalize his people, the President scaring the crap out of a room full of kids (and a live TV audience to boot), and dropping 9/11 as an issue are good ideas. Were you dropped on your head as a child? :lol:

[Hiroshima]

Gardener's immigration status has to do with anything (he's a middle aged white guy from New Hampshire BTW).
> That's all you needed to say

Thanks for clearing up your positions on the major issues of the day. So tax cuts, tax rebates, and improving schools are bad ideas, and letting Saddam brutalize his people, the President scaring the crap out of a room full of kids (and a live TV audience to boot), and dropping 9/11 as an issue are good ideas. Were you dropped on your head as a child? :lol:

> Let see....tax cuts are pointless concidering we're the least taxed people on the face of the planet. Tax rebates are pointless becase if you're hoping, like Bush, you have your economy energized, you'll just find that most people put their money they get from you in savings accounts and just let it sit there. Improving schools though cutting their funding?!? Are you the one who was dropped on their head? Have you talked to a teacher lately? They cut the funding to the school if it's doing back instead of doing research as to why its doing back, and possibly increasing funding. Saddam was a bad man, but what the hell, we leave the Saudis in power, that odd guy in North Korea in charge.... And the President could have made a perfectly reasonable excuse and left without saying anything, you twit!

[Hiroshima]

Of course this will just degenerate into sniping between me and 2 Sheds... let's just drop it since it had no bearing on the topic of this thread.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Did you see McCain at Fox?

Nope - I missed that. But I did see the Bush girls at the Convention. Rrawrrr.

[Navy]

I like the brown one, whats her name again? Jenna?