Palestinian Militants Abandon Truce

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030822/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716

I think everyone knew they abandon the truce when they blew up that bus full of people. This kinda reminds me of Star Wars...Darth Vader would kill one of his admirals and generals, then promote one in his place and kill him later. I bet hamas and islamic jihad members try to dodge promotions...lol

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030822/capt.1061525076.mideast_israel_palestinians_xem101.jpg

As others wave a Hamas flag, a militant fires his weapon in the air during a demonstration in Gaza City Thursday Aug. 21, 2003 following the killing of senior Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab in an Israeli missile strike. Thousands of Hamas supporters threatened to avenge the killing and Hamas and other Islamic and militant groups said they would no longer abide by a ceasefire they declared on June 29. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030821/capt.sge.slo94.210803212319.photo01.default-389x270.jpg

Palestinians extinguish the car of Hamas political leader Ismail Abu Shanab after it was attacked by Israeli forces in Gaza City.(AFP/Mohammed Abed)



By IAN JAMES, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants promised to avenge the killing of a Hamas leader with a wave of attacks against Israel, threatening to plunge the Middle East into a new cycle of violence.


Tens of thousands of Palestinians marched through the streets of Gaza City Thursday night, many chanting "revenge, revenge." About 15 men marched in long robes, signalling their willingness to become suicide bombers. Both the Hamas and Islamic Jihad said they would abandon a declared cease-fire.


Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) warned that "the end of the road map is a cliff that both sides will fall off of" and urged them to pull back from the abyss.


In initial strikes, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) fired four homemade rockets at Israeli towns, the army said. No one was wounded, but one of the Qassam rockets damaged a house in Sderot, just a few miles from Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s private ranch.


Hamas members also fired some 15 mortar shells at Jewish settlements and army outposts in the Gaza Strip, damaging another house.


About a dozen Israeli tanks and armored personnel carriers, meanwhile, rolled into the West Bank town of Jenin in a second consecutive night of raids searching for wanted Palestinians.


The violence posed the most serious threat yet to the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, launched three months ago.


Islamic militant groups called off an already shaky two-month-old truce after the attack Thursday that killed prominent Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab, a U.S.-educated engineering professor who was considered one of the group's more pragmatic members and who had pushed for the truce. Israel said he was involved in terrorism, including the suicide bombing in Jerusalem Tuesday that left 20 dead and more than 100 wounded.


An Israeli helicopter fired five missiles at Abu Shanab's white station wagon as it slowed down for a speed bump on one of Gaza's busiest streets. Fire and smoke engulfed the car and Abu Shanab's scorched, decapitated body hung from the driver's side window. Two bodyguards were also killed, and 15 bystanders were hurt.


Hamas issued a statement in Lebanon saying "our response to this despicable crime will, God willing, be earthshaking."


Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, said the truce was off. The smaller Islamic Jihad group and renegades from Yasser Arafat (news - web sites)'s Fatah (news - web sites) movement joined in the announcement. The militants' cease-fire had quelled violence for several weeks, though there had been three suicide bombings in the past two weeks.


According to aides, Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas had ordered a major crackdown and drawn up lists of militants to be arrested, but scrapped the plans after the assassination. Abbas denounced the missile strike as an "ugly crime" and warned it would harm efforts to rein in militant groups.


Israel said it could not wait any longer for the Palestinians to act against militants.


In the Gaza Strip, tens of thousands of Hamas supporters took to the streets after the killing, many having harsh words for Abbas' efforts at negotiation.


"All the Palestinian people are unified behind the choice of resistance," said 25-year-old Yousef Said, holding a green Hamas flag. He said Abbas should "should listen to his people, not to the Americans or to the Israelis."


The politically weak Abbas — appointed in April after U.S. and Israeli demands for an alternative to Arafat — has been under heavy pressure to make progress on the "road map" plan, which has been stalled by fierce disagreement on what should be the next step and which side should take it.


The plan calls for an immediate end to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state by 2005.





In New York, Powell said after meeting U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) that Arafat should make security forces under his control available to Abbas so that the prime minister has authority over all security forces.

Israel has accused Arafat of supporting terrorism, and its military has confined him to his partially destroyed compound in Ramallah for nearly two years.

The Israelis decided to act against Hamas after giving the Palestinians more than 24 hours and seeing no sign of significant action, a security source said on condition of anonymity. "We were waiting to see even just one Hamas arrest," he said.

Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir said the Palestinians should have moved faster.

"If there had been a will ... of the Palestinian leadership to really take action, they could have done it in an hour, two hours after the horrific terrorist attack," he said. Among the victims of Tuesday's bus bombing were six children.

By early Thursday, Israeli troops had raided three West Bank towns — Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarem. They arrested more than a dozen Palestinians, blew up a bomb lab in Nablus and re-entered Jenin Thursday night.

[James]

Uh, maybe if Israel hadn't killed Shanab, the "Road Map" might still be in effect. One side or the other has to step up and do the right thing. Do they really want peace?

This makes me think of children on a playground arguing about something inconsequential... they each have to get the last word in, and the argument never ends.

[Seiyuuki]

Uh, maybe if Israel hadn't killed Shanab, the "Road Map" might still be in effect. One side or the other has to step up and do the right thing. Do they really want peace?

This makes me think of children on a playground arguing about something inconsequential... they each have to get the last word in, and the argument never ends.

So pretty much, just basically like this forum. p-)

[Phantom]

i don't think anyone believed it would last. this is harsh, but let palestine and israel just fight eachother. if they want to end it, then THEY can end it. Because the US is just wasting money on them, if they wipe eachother out, then they wipe eachother out and then half the problem is gone.

oh and james, israel had been giving back land to palestine, as well as agreeing to a ceasecire, then palestine broke the ceasefire agreement and bombed that bus. after that, israeli tanks rolled into the west bank (i think) and then that chopper took out that blokes car. the palestinians started the ****ing thing.

[SOG]

well i think this is a unique situation. you may have a gov and general back people in Palestine who would complete a uneasy truce. the fact of the matter is while hamas does not control the goverment officially they constrict the goverment as they cannot be controlled. the problem with hamas is even if you seriously got the Palestine goverment to go after them with serious backing its a deep rooted terrorist element that overly can strike no matter what its memeber size.

its a continuos loop where israel and Palestine could actually do this but hamas is too controlling and its too easy for them to anger israel with such a small force of terrorists. its not overly israels or Palestines fault. say israel just stopped fighting period, hamas would not, period. and once they do stop fighting you get into a whole nuther mess of land and border disputes. so the USA is stupid for even trying to negotiate any road map no matter what because the Palestinians are not in a overpowering control of hamas. how many more lives will be wasted while we talk? negotiate? spend millions on committes and personell and plane trips on this wasted project year after year? is this a sham? one well placed rocket each time and its over. gee, didnt see that coming.

the only way i see this going away is that it never will because the balance hangs by such a thread that it would take some major intervention to break the two up and keep them away from each other to simmer down. even if say, the US made a strong presence there (which would not amuse the middle east thinking we were fighting for israel) all it would take is for one to slip by with a rpg and its all over again.

then again there will never be peace there. who cares..... :cantbeli:

oh and that attack, beautifull. un frickin good planning. route, pop up, slow point, ba-bap. tagged to hell, buh bye, buh bye.

[Seraphim]

i don't think anyone believed it would last. this is harsh, but let palestine and israel just fight eachother. if they want to end it, then THEY can end it. Because the US is just wasting money on them, if they wipe eachother out, then they wipe eachother out and then half the problem is gone.

oh and james, israel had been giving back land to palestine, as well as agreeing to a ceasecire, then palestine broke the ceasefire agreement and bombed that bus. after that, israeli tanks rolled into the west bank (i think) and then that chopper took out that blokes car. the palestinians started the f*** thing.

James is right, Israel broke the ceasefire first this time.

[Kriz]

Wel the road map can be placed in the fridge for quite some time coz this ain't gonna blow over in one day.

[S'13]

First of all there was no cease-fire to keep. The Palestinian continued attacking Israelis in much smaller attacks. For example a stabbing attack in which two Israelis were injured and one died of his wounds. This was at the beginning of the so called "cease-fire". I don't have to remind you of the two suicied bombings which took place last week in Rosh Ha'ayin and Ariel, one person died in each of the attacks. However Israel continued to give benefits to the Palestinians ( release of prisoners, the of return of towns to Palestinian control and so on). The Palestinian authority on the other hand didn't act against terrorists even though they were required to do so in accordance with the cease-fire agreement. Israel only acted against terrorists when they posed a real threat (planing or about to carry out a terror attack). Of course the suicied bombing of a bus full of familys and small cheldren was the straw that broke the camel's back. Israel has the right to deafend it's civilians just as the USA or any other country has.

[UoUo]

[quote=Phantom]

James is right, Israel broke the ceasefire first this time.

WTF ? who blast a bus in jeruslem... israel ?

[James]

Here's what I see. Israel and the Palestinians agree to a ceasefire. Hamas complies as well. Then, an INDIVIDUAL who may or may not be a member of Hamas, but is Palestinian, takes matters into his own hands, because his uncle/brother/cousin/whatever was killed by Israeli soldiers last year. He bombs a bus and kills a bunch of civilians, and Israel retaliates by hitting the leadership of Hamas, which may not have had anything to do with it. There hasn't been any proof here in the States, anyway. The news says that Shanab was killed in retaliation for the bus bombing.

[UoUo]

all americans....as much that i love USA i must to say...you don't know **** about what is going on here....i must to say..if in US there was a group of terorist...you were bomb them....untill they were soory about the day they done something to you.....look what you did to iraq...afganistan....and iran is next...

[warchild1/27scout]

he was a member of hamas and it breaks my heart to have another terrorist dead. :cantbeli:

[S'13]

James, stop talking BS. The man (if you can call him a man) who blow up the bus didn't just go individualy and do so. An attack of this proportion isn't done individualy. It is well planed and the approval to carry out the attack comes from the top. Hamas also took responsibility and showed a tape of the suicied bomber before he went out to perform the massacre. So i think it's safe to say that Hamas is responsible.

[StarvingStudent47]

Here's what I see. Israel and the Palestinians agree to a ceasefire. Hamas complies as well. Then, an INDIVIDUAL who may or may not be a member of Hamas, but is Palestinian, takes matters into his own hands, because his uncle/brother/cousin/whatever was killed by Israeli soldiers last year. He bombs a bus and kills a bunch of civilians, and Israel retaliates by hitting the leadership of Hamas, which may not have had anything to do with it. There hasn't been any proof here in the States, anyway. The news says that Shanab was killed in retaliation for the bus bombing.

If that was the case, then maybe the terrorist groups should quit CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY when this "individual" kills some civilians.

[He219]

First of all there was no cease-fire to keep. The Palestinian continued attacking Israelis in much smaller attacks. For example a stabbing attack in which two Israelis were injured and one died of his wounds. This was at the beginning of the so called "cease-fire". I don't have to remind you of the two suicied bombings which took place last week in Rosh Ha'ayin and Ariel, one person died in each of the attacks. However Israel continued to give benefits to the Palestinians ( release of prisoners, the of return of towns to Palestinian control and so on). The Palestinian authority on the other hand didn't act against terrorists even though they were required to do so in accordance with the cease-fire agreement. Israel only acted against terrorists when they posed a real threat (planing or about to carry out a terror attack). Of course the suicied bombing of a bus full of familys and small cheldren was the straw that broke the camel's back. Israel has the right to deafend it's civilians just as the USA or any other country has.

It's sad to think that you actually believe in your one-sided rhetoric. Obvilously your impression of Palestineans is quite condesending. As for breaking the ceasefire, your examples only regurgitate the Israeli State blowpipe. You fail to mention, among other things, July 25th's murder of five yoear old Mohammed Qabha and the injuries to his sibling sisters by an Israeli Soldier and the reprocussion that this worldwide publicized event could have with Palestinian reprisals as just one example of looking at another point of view.

http://br.yimg.com/i/news/*******/j/030725/munormmenpoli59144540.jpg

It was the third fatal shooting at a security checkpoint this week. Yesterday, an Israeli Bedoiun Arab was shot dead by border policemen, who said that he failed to stop his car for a security check. Another Israeli Arab was killed on Tuesday after he was apparently mistaken for a suicide bomber.

Here (http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish/article_2103.shtml) is a list of what Palestineans claim as Israeli violations of the ceasefire.


http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401423

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401479

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401466

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401467

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401468

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401410

Israeli army tanks sit in downtown Nablus as they impose a curfew during a search operation in the Old City Friday Aug. 22, 2003. Israeli tanks and other armored vehicles rolled into the West Bank towns of Jenin, Tulkarem and Nablus for a second night of raids searching for wanted Palestinians. Operations are continuing during the day.(AP Photo/Nasser Ishtayeh)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401417

Israeli soldiers break into a Palestinian house during an army operation in the West Bank city of Nablus August 22, 2003. Israel on Friday threatened more attacks on Palestinian militants after its killing of a Hamas leader led major Islamic groups to proclaim the end of a truce crucial for a U.S.-backed peace plan and vow revenge.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=401411

Palestinians attend the funeral of Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab in Gaza City on August 22, 2003. Shanab was killed, along with two of his bodyguards, yesterday when Israeli helicopters fired missiles into a car in Gaza City. The attack came in response to a deadly suicide bus bombing in Jerusalem earlier in the week.


The educated person has to differentiate Palestinian Jibberish and Israel Jibberish from the truth. I hardly believe you would say anything critical of Israeli policy or that reprisals only encourage the senseless cycle of violence.

[Kriz]

Very well said He219 !

[S'13]

He219, it is tragic when innocent people are killed and children in particular but the five year old boy you mentioned wasn't killed deliberately. The soldier discharged a bullet by accident. As for the 7 children who were killed on the bus which was blown up, i can't say the same about them.

[StarvingStudent47]

Do you think you could post some more pictures in this thread, He219? Cause my 56k connection was just loading too quickly before I came here.

If you want me to start posting pictures of bodies ripped apart by Palestinian suicide bombers, I could. I could also toss in pictures of Palestinians rioting, demanding that Saddam fire chemical weapons against Israel. I could show pictures of Palestinian parents dressing up their babies as suicide bombers to continue the hatred so pervasive in that society. But I really think that sort of thing brings nothing new to the discussion, so I don't. However, if we want to turn a thread from a war of words to a war of pictures, it could be arranged.

By the way, your last picture (thousands of Palestinians attending the funeral of a fanatically religious terrorist and his two bodyguards) doesn't exactly help prove your point that "only a few Palestinians are terrorists, and the rest just want peace."

[UoUo]

what about those pic's ?

http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2003/march/dotz%2006.03.03-04.jpg


http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2003/march/dotz%2006.03.03-05.jpg

[spier]

James is right, Israel broke the ceasefire first this time.This time? How about practically every time?

Honestly, I don't really care anymore, let 'em burn. All of them.

Palestinian or Israeli; they are both equally worthless.

[UoUo]

James is right, Israel broke the ceasefire first this time.This time? How about practically every time?

Honestly, I don't really care anymore, let 'em burn. All of them.

Palestinian or Israeli; they are both equally worthless.

:roll:

[spier]

James is right, Israel broke the ceasefire first this time.This time? How about practically every time?

Honestly, I don't really care anymore, let 'em burn. All of them.

Palestinian or Israeli; they are both equally worthless.

:roll: Yeah, ok the Star Wars quote was a bit excessive, but the point still stands.

[UoUo]

and what with you ? when you'r war going to end ?

[spier]

and what with you ? when you'r war going to end ?Ehm, what war? We have a war? Yay! woot

[UoUo]

and what with you ? when you'r war going to end ?Ehm, what war? We have a war? Yay! woot

where are you from ?

[spier]

and what with you ? when you'r war going to end ?Ehm, what war? We have a war? Yay! woot

where are you from ? The land of Cheese and neutrality.

[StarvingStudent47]

UoUo--could you translate the captions of those pictures for those of us who can't read Hebrew? (including myself) I know that the IDF follows the same medical code that the US army does (help all injured, regardless of origin), but a lot of people may not know that.

[UoUo]

UoUo--could you translate the captions of those pictures for those of us who can't read Hebrew? (including myself) I know that the IDF follows the same medical code that the US army does (help all injured, regardless of origin), but a lot of people may not know that.

yes...soory..my english isn't very good...

like you said...in the pictures we saw a israelis soldair help local palstinian....show me 1 terorist help to an israeli...and i whould say that the palstinian are human as much as israel and usa.

[Trigger]

The land of Cheese and neutrality

Wisconsin?

[StarvingStudent47]

The land of Cheese and neutrality

Wisconsin?

I think he's talking about Switzerland, the bankroller of the Third Reich. They do make great cheese and cool watches, but I don't like it when the Swiss pretend they're better than everyone else just because they're nominally neutral. They're hands aren't cleaner than anyone else's.

[budanski]

The land of Cheese and neutrality

Wisconsin?

More like bad hygiene and lack of booty.

[Fargin]

The solutions is pretty simple or complicated. As long as the destructive forces are stronger nothing will change. We all know what happens to Israeli PMs who push too hard for peace.

[StarvingStudent47]

The solutions is pretty simple or complicated. As long as the destructive forces are stronger nothing will change. We all know what happens to Israeli PMs who push too hard for peace.

Only one Israeli PM has been assassinated, and Rabin was hardly the only Israeli who ever worked for peace. Barak and Sharon have both pushed for peace in the past five years, and been on the brink of peace with the help of American negotiation, only to have the Palestinian Authority spit in their face.

[Phantom]

palestinians, **** 'em. send out a message to them saying that jordan is taking those who do not wish to be associated with the terrorists and want peace (for a short time only), and get the world to help out, making accomodation, giving money to jordan for it, and paying for their food, water all that stuff. there's enough countries out there with the money to do it. then say other countries do a massive sweep of palestine, not israel because that could create biase work. get countries like britain, australia, poland (proved themselves in the last gulf war), america, because they've got so much manpower they can bring, and then say that anyone left will be arrested, anyone with a weapon in their hands will be shot on site. but this could mean that all the terrorists leave to jordan and then go back to palestine. i cannot see a solution to this, so let's just bomb the mofo's back to the stoneage, someone has to leave, and that coast isn't big enough for the two of them.

[budanski]

Wow, I could remember when the Palestinians were fighting for their own Palestinian state from Jordan and Egypt...... [/sarcasm]

[S'13]

I also remember the Palestinians using Jordan as a base for there attacks. They almost created a state within a state. Fortunately the king of Jordan got smart enough to kick them out to Lebanon.

[He219]

I bet you'd love to kick 'them' out of East Jerusalem, The West Bank, The Giza Strip and the rest of what was once Palestine........

[S'13]

Actually there never was a "Palestine".

[He219]

You mean to say that the Mandate of Palestine was never a British Protectoarte???

[S'13]

Look, the name Palestine was given by the Romans to the land formerly know as Judea. The Romans did this to erase any memory of the Jews who lived and controled this land untill the destruction of the second Temple. The name was adopted by the rest of the world. But in fact there was never a self govern state named Palestine only a land named Palestine which was ruled by foreign states (Turkey and England for example) over the years.

[usa320]

Well, they abandoned the truce, so when isreal strikes back again, there wont be any cries of "they abandoned the truce".

[Seiyuuki]

Read this...i hope it's going to explain you what is going on here better then me.





Didn't Israel drive out 600,000 Palestinians at gunpoint in 1948 and take their land?

Most Arabs who left Israel did so under the orders of the Arab leader, the Grand Mufti, to withdraw and let the Arab armies "drive the Jews into the sea," which they attempted in 1948. However Israel won that war. Not all of the Arabs left, and Israel is now 18% Arab. These Arabs have full citizenship rights, can own property, vote, and have 14 representatives in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament.

I've heard that some Israelis say there is no such thing as Palestinians. How can they say that?

Up until the 1967 war, the Arabs living in Israel did not even call themselves Palestinians -- twenty years after the founding of the modern state of Israel. The name Palestine came from the Romans who destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. To humiliate the Jews, the Romans renamed the land Palestine after their mortal enemies, the Philistines. The modern land of Palestine was given that name by the British when they took control over from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. In British Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians.

(See "What is a Palestinian?" at Masada 2000)

Why doesn't Israel just give back the West Bank to the Palestinians? Then there will be peace.

In 1948, Israel's Arab neighbors tried to destroy the State of Israel. They rejected a Palestinian State, which the UN offered them at the same time as when Israel was founded. Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan. Currently Jordan has a peace treaty with Israel. The West Bank, which Jews call Judea and Samaria, is part of the ancient kingdom of Israel, and has been home to Arabs and Jews for thousands of years. Arafat himself said he will take back Israel in its entirety, if he has to do it all at once or piece by piece.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is looking for any excuse to invade and shoot Palestinians. Why did the Israeli people even elect him?

The directives given the IDF are strictly against the taking of innocent civilian life. Sharon withdrew ELEVEN times from the West Bank to effect a cease-fire. Each time Israel was attacked by suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority failed to arrest them And instead paid their families awards. They even named streets after them as "martyrs". How can anyone take an enemy seriously that encourages the terror attacks? In 2000, President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak tried to offer the Palestinians a state, which included 95% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected the offer and launched the latest intifada or uprising. The sniper killings and suicide bombings are the method used to attack Israeli citizens. The Israeli people, who were angered when Arafat rejected Barak's offer, elected the hard-liner Sharon by a la! ndslide. Sharon has prevented more terror attacks than he has instigated. To blame him for the terror attacks is like blaming a woman for being raped.

Why are there so many more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis? Doesn't this prove that Israel is the aggressor here?

Several reasons combine to explain the differential death toll. First, the numbers are skewed. The Palestinians count the suicide bombers as "civilian casualties". They also count terrorists killed in shootouts with the police or IDF. Fact is, if civilians were only counted, Israeli casualties would be higher. Snipers who open fire on civilians are immediately hunted down and arrested, but many fight until they are shot. A big factor appears to be Palestinian gunmen who hide themselves in populated areas, which causes a high civilian death toll when the IDF tries to shoot back at them. The IDF has a policy of a measured response to a terrorist attack. These reprisals rarely involve death or injury. Also, given the P.A.'s problems with math, such as claiming 1,500 killed in Jenin when it was 52, their calculations are highly suspect. Israel has 10,000 people who are invalids, in comas or scarred in other ways for life.

Wait a minute! Israel has a heavily armed state-of-the-art military and the Palestinians only have rocks and a few old guns. Shouldn't our sympathies be with the Palestinians who only want their freedom from oppression and the opportunity for self-rule?

The Palestinians are using more than rocks, although stonings can be very violent too, causing death and serious injury. They have Qasem rockets. They have grenades. They have M-16's and Kalashnikovs [Ed.: Russian made assault rifles]. Arafat demanded weapons claiming he needed an armed police force to keep order. Those guns, provided by none other than Israel, have been linked with numerous terrorist attacks. Many weapons have been smuggled in from Egypt as well. The Palestinian police ARE the terrorists such as Fatah and Al Aksa. Currently the Palestinians, have self-rule under the Oslo accords yet persist in attacking Israel.

Don't the Israelis build roads and freeways that bypass Palestinian villages and they aren't allowed to use them?

They do bypass them. They were built because when Israelis drive by them they are shot at or have rocks thrown at them. Boulders dropped from heights above the roads have killed some. If the Israelis built freeways on Arab land, they'd complain the Israelis were taking Arab land or that they were damaging the environment.

Every time a Palestinian wants to go somewhere they have to go thru an Israeli checkpoint. Isn't this humiliating for the Palestinian people?

Humiliating? US citizens have to wait two hours at checkpoints at the airport. It's called security against terrorism. Suicide bombers kill Arabs too.

The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) regularly prevents ambulances from picking up sick and wounded people. Isn't this a crime against humanity?

They don't prevent medical care. However, time and time again the Arabs have transported bombs and terrorists in ambulances so now they must be thoroughly checked. Israel gives free medical care to many Palestinians. In Jenin last April, the IDF supplied blood to the hospital for wounded Palestinians. But the blood was rejected because the Palestinians would not use Jewish blood. So the IDF using military transports brought in blood from Jordan.

The Israelis have stopped the Palestinians from normal commerce, from employment, and now they are suffering from food shortages. How can they justify this?

Commerce and employment were higher when Israel controlled the area. In nine years with billions of dollars in aid the PA has failed even to feed its people. PA warlords under Arafat control UN food allotments and even sell it on the black market. It has been the terrorist attacks that have made business as usual impossible and have hurt the Palestinian economy.

When the Israelis say that the Arabs only wish to drive them into the sea, aren't they just being paranoid and using this excuse to justify their aggressions against the Palestinians?

5.5 million Jews. 250 million Arabs. Missiles with germ and radiological warheads on Israel's northern frontier controlled by Hizbollah. 21 terrorist attacks a day against common Israelis. The Arabs said "into the sea" in 1948 and even after Oslo. This is paranoid???

Didn't the International Conference in Durban, South Africa condemn Israel as a racist state?

The conference was made up of Arab dictatorships pushing their own agenda. The US and most of Europe boycotted the vote.

The Palestinians and the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years. Aren't they equally responsible for the violence?

They have not been fighting for thousands of years. The Arabs persecuted Jews. The difference is the Arabs won't tolerate a Jewish presence in the Muslim Middle East -- period. The Jews offer to negotiate peace but the Arabs are really just negotiating the end of Israel.

The suicide bombings are terrible, but aren't they done by a small handful of extremists? Isn't it wrong to condemn all the Palestinian people for the acts of a few?

Evidence shows that as many as twelve extremist groups conduct terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. Hamas, Hezbollah, The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah are a few of them. In many cases, the same individuals who are security for the Palestinian Authority conduct the terrorist attacks. Opinion polls among the Palestinian population reveal 90% approve of the suicide bombings. Thousands dance in the streets when a lethal suicide bombing is executed. The few who would work for peace run the risk of being arrested or lynched for being a collaborator with Israel. Historically, the Arabs persecuted Jews. The idea of wearing a yellow star as the mark of Jew was begun by the Arabs and copied by the Nazis. Just a note..the Arabs even have suicide bomber trading cards now like we have baseball! cards.

Why does Israel practice collective punishment against the Palestinian people?

Israel does not practice collective punishment. The security checkpoints are there solely to prevent more suicide bombings and attacks. During a reprisal, such as the bombing of a house from which sniper shots have been fired, a warning is given and THAT HOUSE is destroyed. Likewise, wanted criminals are found and executed since it is impossible to hold them accountable in a court of law under Arafat's regime. Often it is easy to determine the culprit. The Palestinians carry them on their shoulders in the street, put up posters praising them, and name streets after them. Contrast this with the almost daily attacks on Israeli civilians making all citizens fearful of going shopping for groceries, riding a bus, or stopping in for a piece of pizza.

I know that the Israelis don't want to deal with Prime Minister Yassir Arafat, but didn't the majority of the Palestinian people elect him?

Arafat ran the same type of Arab election as Saddam Hussein or Bashir Assad. He ran against one candidate, an 85 year-old woman who told everyone to vote for Arafat. When he first took control of the territories he murdered all the Arabs who administered the territories under Israel as "collaborators" in a sports stadium. Even Hitler and Stalin could claim to be democratically elected leaders the same as Arafat. But were they? The PA suspended all elections until President Bush said a "reformed" leadership was needed. Arafat's "reform" does not include his stepping down. He has postponed elections twice and now says not for a year until he can once again control the outcome.

Aren't the Jewish settlers on the West Bank just an excuse for Sharon to invade the Palestinian areas? And given how much opposition the Palestinians have to building homes on the West Bank, isn't Sharon just encouraging more suicide bombings?

Many Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, believe the land of Judea and Samaria to be divinely given to the Jewish people. However, the Jewish settlements are on 1.7% of the West Bank. While home-building by Jews is often given as a reason for conducting more suicide bombing attacks (sadly documented in video tapes made by the teenage bombers shortly before they conducted an attack), does this sound even slightly reasonable? To commit suicide and mass murder to protest the building of homes by people of another religion? The settlements have residents who own homes and businesses as well. Why can't they stay as part of a state of Palestine and be Palestinian citizens as part of a peace settlement? The reason is the Ar! abs who accuse democratic Israel of racism repeatedly say NO JEWS may live anywhere in Palestine.

The conflict between the Muslims and the Jews is religous at its core. Isn't it really an insoluble issue marked by religious intolerance on both sides?

While there are sects of Islam which use passages in the Koran to justify the killing of infidels, there are also passages in the Koran which forbid suicide. Other passages teach that lands given by the Lord to other peoples are given for a reason known only to God. Likewise, religious Jews, who remain fixed on prophesies of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, the return of the Jewish people to the State of Israel, and the coming of the messiah are not likely to give in to Arab pressure to leave their holy sites. For the Arabs it is a tribal affair of honor and vengeance. Racism is at its core. Racism is a sickness and sicknesses can be cured. Israel seriously wants peace with the Arabs, but not at the expense of her existence being whittled away bit by bit through terrorism until she is destroyed. The healing will come when the world focuses its energies on helping the Arab world to come out of generations of tribal warfare, the subjugation of women, illiteracy and feudal kingdoms. These are the conditions, which spawn hatred of the Jews, which is only slightly more vehement than their hatred of the Christians

[Seiyuuki]

Do you know how many threads there are just on this subject alone?

[Seiyuuki]

Did you know...if you type in "Israel and Palestinians" in the Search option of the forum...there's 41 matches!!!

[Haiw]

even worse...there's 104 (propably 105 now cus of me lol) on airsoft :(

[budanski]

I'm curious? Whats wrong with airsofters?