Israel Warns It Will Kill More Militants

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030822/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716

And around the mary go-round again.


By JASON KEYSER, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israel plans to kill more militant leaders if the Palestinians do not begin arresting and disarming extremists, Israeli officials warned on Friday following a lethal helicopter missile strike on a Hamas chief.


Palestinian leaders said Thursday's killing of Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab ruined what was to be an imminent campaign against militants by Palestinian security forces.


The militants called off their two-month-old cease-fire and promised more suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli targets, raising the chances that a new round of Mideast violence will sink a U.S.-backed peace plan. The plan is aimed at stopping three years of violence and creating a Palestinian state.


Hamas quickly dispatched squads of young militants in Gaza to launch homemade rockets into Israel. By Friday morning, six of the crude projectiles had been fired, damaging two houses but causing no injuries. More than a dozen mortars were also launched at Jewish settlements within Gaza, damaging another house.


Several high-ranking Israeli military officials said on condition of anonymity that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders if there are new Palestinian suicide attacks and no efforts by Palestinian police forces to arrest extremists.


A Palestinian suicide bombing on a Jerusalem bus on Tuesday killed 20 people, including six children, prompting Israel's strike on Abu Shanab, a 53-year-old Hamas leader and U.S.-educated civil engineer.


An Israeli security source said all Hamas leaders were now considered fair targets and new strikes would be launched after a 24-hour lull to give Palestinians a chance to act on their own against militants. "We were waiting to see even just one Hamas arrest," he said.


Under the "road map" peace plan , launched on June 4, the Palestinians are required to dismantle Islamic and other militant groups.


After Tuesday's suicide attack in Jerusalem, aides to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said for the first time that he would go after militants, something he had previously rejected for fear of setting off a civil war. But those plans were scrapped after Israel's helicopter attack, which killed Abu Shanab and two bodyguards, the aides said.


Palestinian legislator Ziad Abu Zayyad said that the renewed violence threatens to topple Abbas — also known as Abu Mazen — who was appointed in April under pressure from U.S. and Israeli leaders searching for an alternative to Yasser Arafat (news - web sites).


"If this situation continues, Abu Mazen will not last long," Abu Zayyad said. "Those interested in Abu Mazen's success must pressure Israel to stop undermining his government."


Abbas, largely failing to win his own people's support because talks with Israel did not produce the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners, appeared to be losing confidence among Israelis as well.


A poll published Friday, found that only 35 percent of Israelis thought peace talks with Abbas should continue following Tuesday's bombing. The survey of 501 adults by the Dahaf polling company was printed in the Yediot Ahronot newspaper and had a margin of error of 4.5 percentage points.


Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers again set up road blocks along Gaza's main north-south highway, effectively cutting the strip in half. Hundreds of motorists were stranded on the roadway, which had been briefly re-opened in one of the most significant gestures Israel had offered to improve the daily lives of ordinary Palestinians.


The military said it closed the road to try to stop the firing of rockets into Israel.


Egypt sent an adviser to President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites), Osama el-Baz, to meet with Arafat, in an apparent effort to try to salvage the cease-fire. Israel Army Radio reported that the envoy was also to meet Israel's foreign minister.


In a loud, angry funeral in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), men carried the bodies of Abu Shanab and his two bodyguards. The streets echoed with shouts for revenge. Some in the crowd chanted a warning for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz: "Sharon and Mofaz listen very well, our retaliation will send you to hell!"





On Thursday night, tens of thousands of Palestinians — among them many black-hooded Hamas supporters — marched along Gaza streets, pledging revenge.

In a joint statement issued Friday in Beirut, Lebanon, Hamas and Islamic Jihad blamed Sharon for the collapse of the cease-fire.

"The American administration will be held responsible as well because it remained silent on the Zionist (Israeli) crimes and violations and guaranteed a political cover for it," the statement said.

In the West Bank, Israeli tanks and other armored vehicles rolled into the towns of Jenin, Tulkarem and Nablus for a second night of raids searching for wanted Palestinians. Troops used explosives to demolish three houses that belonged to the families of militants who carried out attacks.

[StarvingStudent47]

Go get 'em, boys.

"Merry go round"--yeah, if killing terrorists is morally equivalent to terrorists killing civilians.

Was the US war in Afghanistan a "merry go round" or a "cycle of violence" or any of those buzzwords? After all, they killed our civilians, we killed their terrorists. So people died on both sides, and no one has a moral high ground...right? :roll:

[UoUo]

I hope israel will killed those #^#&%&$

Abu ****i is next...

[Kriz]

Go get 'em, boys.

"Merry go round"--yeah, if killing terrorists is morally equivalent to terrorists killing civilians.

Was the US war in Afghanistan a "merry go round" or a "cycle of violence" or any of those buzzwords? After all, they killed our civilians, we killed their terrorists. So people died on both sides, and no one has a moral high ground...right? :roll:

You really believe that the Afghanian people killed USA citizens apart from Osama Ben Laden and some nutcases most Afghanians don't even know where New York is let alone cae about crashing airplanes into buildings, most of them allready have a hard time enough trying to survive in their own country.

[StarvingStudent47]

You really believe that the Afghanian people killed USA citizens apart from Osama Ben Laden and some nutcases most Afghanians don't even know where New York is let alone cae about crashing airplanes into buildings, most of them allready have a hard time enough trying to survive in their own country.

I'm not here to talk about whether or not Afghanistan was a just war. I'm just saying that Israel's actions in the West Bank can be justified by the exact same arguments as the US war in Afghanistan.

*If you believe Israeli incursions are wrong, and the Afghan war was wrong, then you're being fair. I think you're being silly, but you're fair.

*If you believe the incursions are justified, and the war against the Taliban was justified, then you're being fair.

*If you supported the war against the Taliban but condemn Israel hunting Hamas leaders, then you've got a double-standard.

That is all I'm saying.

[Seraphim]

Your saying that Israel and the other radical groups arent in a cycle of violence? You need to check your head.

[StarvingStudent47]

Your saying that Israel and the other radical groups arent in a cycle of violence? You need to check your head.

First off, gramatically you are classifying Israel as "a radical group." As opposed to say, "a state," or "a political entity," or something like that. Is that intentional?

If there is a cycle of violence, it is the same as the cycle of violence that exists between gang members in society and the police that hunt them. Sure, we haven't been able to stop future gangland crimes. And occassionally there have been big mess-ups during police operations. But that doesn't mean that gangsters and the cops that pursue them are morally equivalent in any way, shape, or fashion. "Cycle of violence" implies moral equivalency. And that does NOT exist in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Likewise, the United States has been unsuccessful at preventing all future terrorists, despite our War on Terror. Would you say that the United States is now engaged in a "cycle of violence" with groups like al-Qaeda?

[[AFSOC]]

I hope israel will killed those #^#&%&$

Abu ****i is next...

Eye for an Eye tooth for a tooth, old thinking................

Its time to realize more bloodshed wont be the solution to end this crisis. This fight has been going on for years before we were born.

I wanna see the Jews just stand there using there words one day, no weapons then they will prove to the rest of the middle east that they are better then them.

Us in the western world we did strike terrorism after 9/11 but were we not fair in giving them time to prevent a war. Did we not tell the opressors to give it up. We told Saddam to give it up, go out peacefully to prevent war.

Evidentlly they were too stuborn, so they got what they asked for................... a WAR.

[Seraphim]

My intent was not to classify Israel as a radical group...I just didnt want to name off hamas and islamic jihad and the rest of those groups. Next time I will make my posts more clear.

[StarvingStudent47]

I wanna see the Jews just stand there using there words one day, no weapons then they will prove to the rest of the middle east that they are better then them.

Standing their proving your moral superiority doesn't mean a darned thing if the other side isn't listening. Don't believe me? Look at how "morally superior" the eight million dead in Nazi gas chambers were. Didn't slow down the Nazis one hour.

If someone comes at me with a knife, I have two options:

1) I can fight back, harming the aggressor. Some will call this "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth," but as long as I go after the aggressor himself (and not, say, his children), I deny any moral equivalency.

2) I can stand there, prove that I am better than him, and find my intestines spread all over the pavement. But hey, I'd feel pretty righteous as I bled to death.

Which would you choose?

[StarvingStudent47]

My intent was not to classify Israel as a radical group...I just didnt want to name off hamas and islamic jihad and the rest of those groups. Next time I will make my posts more clear.

Thanks for clearing that up :) I'm a law student and thus sometimes a bit too much of a stickler for grammatical technicalities.

[lefador1]

If someone comes at me with a knife, I have two options:

1) I can fight back, harming the aggressor. Some will call this "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth," but as long as I go after the aggressor himself (and not, say, his children), I deny any moral equivalency.

2) I can stand there, prove that I am better than him, and find my intestines spread all over the pavement. But hey, I'd feel pretty righteous as I bled to death.

Which would you choose?

Well it depends if the one who is charging at you is the owner of the house you are currently tresspasing, does he not have the right to protect his property?

[Ratamacue]

I believe that he was speaking in reference to an unprovoked or illegal attack (i.e. mugging).

[usa320]

Who gives a ****....i hope they shoot the bastages on the spot...

They killed a freakin Mother and Baby from new York...those bastages...

[Ratamacue]

Yeah, they've killed mothers and babies from Israel too, you know...

[lefador1]

I believe that he was speaking in reference to an unprovoked or illegal attack (i.e. mugging).

... not very good at reading between the lines eh? ;)

[Ratamacue]

No, actually, I got what you're saying.

[usa320]

Yeah, they've killed mothers and babies from Israel too, you know...


They certainly have...and lots of them...freakin terrorist bastages...them killing Americans just hits home a bit more..

[StarvingStudent47]

And it has begun with another textbook-perfect terrorist killing.

Dead terrorists: 3
Injured civilians: 0

BOOYAH!!!

Full story available here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/332047.html

And the United States administration (who is blaming Palestinian terror groups for the disintegration for the roadmap) is helping out by freezing the assets of the terrorist group Hamas. A similar monetary freeze has helped greatly in hamstringing al-Qaeda after 9/11.

Full story available here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/332406.html

[Seiyuuki]

Read this...i hope it's going to explain you what is going on here better then me.





Didn't Israel drive out 600,000 Palestinians at gunpoint in 1948 and take their land?

Most Arabs who left Israel did so under the orders of the Arab leader, the Grand Mufti, to withdraw and let the Arab armies "drive the Jews into the sea," which they attempted in 1948. However Israel won that war. Not all of the Arabs left, and Israel is now 18% Arab. These Arabs have full citizenship rights, can own property, vote, and have 14 representatives in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament.

I've heard that some Israelis say there is no such thing as Palestinians. How can they say that?

Up until the 1967 war, the Arabs living in Israel did not even call themselves Palestinians -- twenty years after the founding of the modern state of Israel. The name Palestine came from the Romans who destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. To humiliate the Jews, the Romans renamed the land Palestine after their mortal enemies, the Philistines. The modern land of Palestine was given that name by the British when they took control over from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. In British Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians.

(See "What is a Palestinian?" at Masada 2000)

Why doesn't Israel just give back the West Bank to the Palestinians? Then there will be peace.

In 1948, Israel's Arab neighbors tried to destroy the State of Israel. They rejected a Palestinian State, which the UN offered them at the same time as when Israel was founded. Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan. Currently Jordan has a peace treaty with Israel. The West Bank, which Jews call Judea and Samaria, is part of the ancient kingdom of Israel, and has been home to Arabs and Jews for thousands of years. Arafat himself said he will take back Israel in its entirety, if he has to do it all at once or piece by piece.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is looking for any excuse to invade and shoot Palestinians. Why did the Israeli people even elect him?

The directives given the IDF are strictly against the taking of innocent civilian life. Sharon withdrew ELEVEN times from the West Bank to effect a cease-fire. Each time Israel was attacked by suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority failed to arrest them And instead paid their families awards. They even named streets after them as "martyrs". How can anyone take an enemy seriously that encourages the terror attacks? In 2000, President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak tried to offer the Palestinians a state, which included 95% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected the offer and launched the latest intifada or uprising. The sniper killings and suicide bombings are the method used to attack Israeli citizens. The Israeli people, who were angered when Arafat rejected Barak's offer, elected the hard-liner Sharon by a la! ndslide. Sharon has prevented more terror attacks than he has instigated. To blame him for the terror attacks is like blaming a woman for being raped.

Why are there so many more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis? Doesn't this prove that Israel is the aggressor here?

Several reasons combine to explain the differential death toll. First, the numbers are skewed. The Palestinians count the suicide bombers as "civilian casualties". They also count terrorists killed in shootouts with the police or IDF. Fact is, if civilians were only counted, Israeli casualties would be higher. Snipers who open fire on civilians are immediately hunted down and arrested, but many fight until they are shot. A big factor appears to be Palestinian gunmen who hide themselves in populated areas, which causes a high civilian death toll when the IDF tries to shoot back at them. The IDF has a policy of a measured response to a terrorist attack. These reprisals rarely involve death or injury. Also, given the P.A.'s problems with math, such as claiming 1,500 killed in Jenin when it was 52, their calculations are highly suspect. Israel has 10,000 people who are invalids, in comas or scarred in other ways for life.

Wait a minute! Israel has a heavily armed state-of-the-art military and the Palestinians only have rocks and a few old guns. Shouldn't our sympathies be with the Palestinians who only want their freedom from oppression and the opportunity for self-rule?

The Palestinians are using more than rocks, although stonings can be very violent too, causing death and serious injury. They have Qasem rockets. They have grenades. They have M-16's and Kalashnikovs [Ed.: Russian made assault rifles]. Arafat demanded weapons claiming he needed an armed police force to keep order. Those guns, provided by none other than Israel, have been linked with numerous terrorist attacks. Many weapons have been smuggled in from Egypt as well. The Palestinian police ARE the terrorists such as Fatah and Al Aksa. Currently the Palestinians, have self-rule under the Oslo accords yet persist in attacking Israel.

Don't the Israelis build roads and freeways that bypass Palestinian villages and they aren't allowed to use them?

They do bypass them. They were built because when Israelis drive by them they are shot at or have rocks thrown at them. Boulders dropped from heights above the roads have killed some. If the Israelis built freeways on Arab land, they'd complain the Israelis were taking Arab land or that they were damaging the environment.

Every time a Palestinian wants to go somewhere they have to go thru an Israeli checkpoint. Isn't this humiliating for the Palestinian people?

Humiliating? US citizens have to wait two hours at checkpoints at the airport. It's called security against terrorism. Suicide bombers kill Arabs too.

The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) regularly prevents ambulances from picking up sick and wounded people. Isn't this a crime against humanity?

They don't prevent medical care. However, time and time again the Arabs have transported bombs and terrorists in ambulances so now they must be thoroughly checked. Israel gives free medical care to many Palestinians. In Jenin last April, the IDF supplied blood to the hospital for wounded Palestinians. But the blood was rejected because the Palestinians would not use Jewish blood. So the IDF using military transports brought in blood from Jordan.

The Israelis have stopped the Palestinians from normal commerce, from employment, and now they are suffering from food shortages. How can they justify this?

Commerce and employment were higher when Israel controlled the area. In nine years with billions of dollars in aid the PA has failed even to feed its people. PA warlords under Arafat control UN food allotments and even sell it on the black market. It has been the terrorist attacks that have made business as usual impossible and have hurt the Palestinian economy.

When the Israelis say that the Arabs only wish to drive them into the sea, aren't they just being paranoid and using this excuse to justify their aggressions against the Palestinians?

5.5 million Jews. 250 million Arabs. Missiles with germ and radiological warheads on Israel's northern frontier controlled by Hizbollah. 21 terrorist attacks a day against common Israelis. The Arabs said "into the sea" in 1948 and even after Oslo. This is paranoid???

Didn't the International Conference in Durban, South Africa condemn Israel as a racist state?

The conference was made up of Arab dictatorships pushing their own agenda. The US and most of Europe boycotted the vote.

The Palestinians and the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years. Aren't they equally responsible for the violence?

They have not been fighting for thousands of years. The Arabs persecuted Jews. The difference is the Arabs won't tolerate a Jewish presence in the Muslim Middle East -- period. The Jews offer to negotiate peace but the Arabs are really just negotiating the end of Israel.

The suicide bombings are terrible, but aren't they done by a small handful of extremists? Isn't it wrong to condemn all the Palestinian people for the acts of a few?

Evidence shows that as many as twelve extremist groups conduct terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. Hamas, Hezbollah, The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah are a few of them. In many cases, the same individuals who are security for the Palestinian Authority conduct the terrorist attacks. Opinion polls among the Palestinian population reveal 90% approve of the suicide bombings. Thousands dance in the streets when a lethal suicide bombing is executed. The few who would work for peace run the risk of being arrested or lynched for being a collaborator with Israel. Historically, the Arabs persecuted Jews. The idea of wearing a yellow star as the mark of Jew was begun by the Arabs and copied by the Nazis. Just a note..the Arabs even have suicide bomber trading cards now like we have baseball! cards.

Why does Israel practice collective punishment against the Palestinian people?

Israel does not practice collective punishment. The security checkpoints are there solely to prevent more suicide bombings and attacks. During a reprisal, such as the bombing of a house from which sniper shots have been fired, a warning is given and THAT HOUSE is destroyed. Likewise, wanted criminals are found and executed since it is impossible to hold them accountable in a court of law under Arafat's regime. Often it is easy to determine the culprit. The Palestinians carry them on their shoulders in the street, put up posters praising them, and name streets after them. Contrast this with the almost daily attacks on Israeli civilians making all citizens fearful of going shopping for groceries, riding a bus, or stopping in for a piece of pizza.

I know that the Israelis don't want to deal with Prime Minister Yassir Arafat, but didn't the majority of the Palestinian people elect him?

Arafat ran the same type of Arab election as Saddam Hussein or Bashir Assad. He ran against one candidate, an 85 year-old woman who told everyone to vote for Arafat. When he first took control of the territories he murdered all the Arabs who administered the territories under Israel as "collaborators" in a sports stadium. Even Hitler and Stalin could claim to be democratically elected leaders the same as Arafat. But were they? The PA suspended all elections until President Bush said a "reformed" leadership was needed. Arafat's "reform" does not include his stepping down. He has postponed elections twice and now says not for a year until he can once again control the outcome.

Aren't the Jewish settlers on the West Bank just an excuse for Sharon to invade the Palestinian areas? And given how much opposition the Palestinians have to building homes on the West Bank, isn't Sharon just encouraging more suicide bombings?

Many Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, believe the land of Judea and Samaria to be divinely given to the Jewish people. However, the Jewish settlements are on 1.7% of the West Bank. While home-building by Jews is often given as a reason for conducting more suicide bombing attacks (sadly documented in video tapes made by the teenage bombers shortly before they conducted an attack), does this sound even slightly reasonable? To commit suicide and mass murder to protest the building of homes by people of another religion? The settlements have residents who own homes and businesses as well. Why can't they stay as part of a state of Palestine and be Palestinian citizens as part of a peace settlement? The reason is the Ar! abs who accuse democratic Israel of racism repeatedly say NO JEWS may live anywhere in Palestine.

The conflict between the Muslims and the Jews is religous at its core. Isn't it really an insoluble issue marked by religious intolerance on both sides?

While there are sects of Islam which use passages in the Koran to justify the killing of infidels, there are also passages in the Koran which forbid suicide. Other passages teach that lands given by the Lord to other peoples are given for a reason known only to God. Likewise, religious Jews, who remain fixed on prophesies of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, the return of the Jewish people to the State of Israel, and the coming of the messiah are not likely to give in to Arab pressure to leave their holy sites. For the Arabs it is a tribal affair of honor and vengeance. Racism is at its core. Racism is a sickness and sicknesses can be cured. Israel seriously wants peace with the Arabs, but not at the expense of her existence being whittled away bit by bit through terrorism until she is destroyed. The healing will come when the world focuses its energies on helping the Arab world to come out of generations of tribal warfare, the subjugation of women, illiteracy and feudal kingdoms. These are the conditions, which spawn hatred of the Jews, which is only slightly more vehement than their hatred of the Christians

[[AFSOC]]

DUDE.............

This is not WWII with the NAZI's this is ISRAEL and Palentinian militants. Its not a war believe that.

Im not saying that if someone attacks you is that you stand there, you have the right and sense to defend yourself.

But Israel isnt defending themselves they are retaliating, two different things there dont you agree?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"---JESUS

http://www.equalrights4all.org/religious/Jesus.GIF

[Seiyuuki]

Do you know how many threads there are just on this subject alone?

[[AFSOC]]

I KNOW DAMMIT, I couldnt even find this one where i posted........SHEESH!

Kinda stupid tho, cause how many times have we a suicide bomber kill people in the past 4 years. Ya'll talk about it like its the first......

[Desert-Fox]

Just send in some Goddamn NATO soldiers....

[UoUo]

My personal opinion is....
Send in some soldiers to stop that ****!
i mean to stop the israelis from attacking palestinian villages and to keep the terrorists from blowing themselves up!

especially the israelis they are the ones pissing of the leaders of the palistinians,
The Palestinians just want to live in their own country in peace...

:roll:

sure...you been here...i can tell :roll:

[Seiyuuki]

Did you know...if you type in "Israel and Palestinians" in the Search option of the forum...there's 41 matches!!!

[StarvingStudent47]

But Israel isnt defending themselves they are retaliating, two different things there dont you agree?

I don't agree one bit. If a terrorist organization is killing your civilians, and you hunt down the administration of said organization in order to weaken its effectiveness, that is "defense" not "retaliation." If you destroy a house that has a bomb-making facility in the basement, that is "defense" not "retaliation." If you establish checkpoints to make sure people aren't carrying explosives, that is "defense" not "retaliation."

Retaliation would be if Israel carpet-bombed Jenin. Or if Israel blew up a Palestinian busful of children every time that happened in Tel Aviv. But Israel doesn't do that.

[martinexsquaddie]

That long piece of propaganda about the arabs leaving is just that. Theres plenty of evidence to argue that they were encouraged along the way by the Jews and certain people in the Israeli Goverment were certainly in Favour of the arabs getting out. Its far from true that Palenstine was empty until the jews came back. Thats information from Israeli archives.
Unfortunatly the sort of taking a new look at history and admitting mistakes and wrong doing by the state is unlikely to happen in either the Arab states or the PLO or PA.
Most thinking members of the IDF know there is only a political solution possible Unfortunatly there are still to many Arabs who belive they can defeat Israel by force.
Reminds me of the situation in 1974 where leaders of the IRA were summoned to London for secret Peace talks Unfortunatly they belived the British were about to surrender even though the IRA had 150 gunmen and the British had 20000plus troops in the province. So the killing went on for another 30 years.
what the pals need is not gandhi but some one like Gerry adams head of Sein/fein IRA. A real Hardman who wants political power and can bring the gunmen with him Arafat failed that one because he chose to get rich and is a frankly crap politican. Why do you think the british did'nt have MR adams killed?