What would be your solution to the Israël-Palestina-problem?

[Haiw]

I don't wanna start a big flame (dont u start one either), but just something that's been bugging me; what could solve the ongoing troubles between the Israeli's and the Palestinians? I've been trying to think of one (gotta do something in all that spare time in vacation lol) but it seems like it's 'the big unsolvable problem of mankind' or something.. Especially since (imo at least) clearly there isn't any 'good' side... So what do u all think?

[Sharky79]

Divide them with a wall like east and west germany before and man that wall with neutral UN forces. But that is going to be hard, with all the Israeli settlements inside Palestinian lands.

[UoUo]

when the terorist will die...i tell you right now....we gonna have peace.

Untill then...war war war.

[Gringo]

NUKE 'EM ALL!!!!

J/k, no offence UoUo

Kill every Hamas terrorist in Palestine. Unfortunatly they'd be 3 more terrorists for each one killed.

[Haiw]

I got a feeling a Palestine (is that the right word?) would say exactely the same as UoUo, only replacing terrorist with Israëli... which is for a big part the whole problem..

[UoUo]

I got a feeling a Palestine (is that the right word?) would say exactely the same as UoUo, only replacing terrorist with Israëli... which is for a big part the whole problem..

They can say it....but is simply not true....we are the victims exactely

like usa was on 11/9.

[Haiw]

They can say it....but is simply not true....we are the victims exactely

like usa was on 11/9.
u just proved my point; the problem is both sides say they are the only victim, while basically they both are (or aren't)

[UoUo]

-k

[StarvingStudent47]

I'd go into every Palestinian elementary school, tear up the Hamas-distributed texts of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Kill a Jew, Get 90 Virgins in Paradise: The Official Primer. And I'd replace them with books like Physics 101 and Arabic: A Grammatical Primer. I might even mix in a few of the great novels, like Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms and Solshenitsyn's A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch. As for books teaching ethnic pride, I'd replace We Blow Away Infidels Like No One Else: A Concise History with We Invented Algebra.

And when the local Hamas leader came to complain that I had turned his terrorist-training elementary school into a genuine academic institution, I'd put a bullet right between his eyes.

[StarvingStudent47]

I got a feeling a Palestine (is that the right word?) would say exactely the same as UoUo, only replacing terrorist with Israëli... which is for a big part the whole problem..

Notice that UoUo said "until the TERRORISTS all die," not "until the ARABS all die." The statements "until ISRAELIS all die" is in no way parallel to "until TERRORISTS all die."

[Haiw]

in some way it is since the Israeli army is often acting like it thinks all arabs are (potential) terrorists...
and besides...who defines 'terrorists'?

[UoUo]

in some way it is since the Israeli army is often acting like it thinks all arabs are (potential) terrorists...


Israel does not practice collective punishment. The security checkpoints are there solely to prevent more suicide bombings and attacks. During a reprisal, such as the bombing of a house from which sniper shots have been fired, a warning is given and THAT HOUSE is destroyed. Likewise, wanted criminals are found and executed since it is impossible to hold them accountable in a court of law under Arafat's regime. Often it is easy to determine the culprit. The Palestinians carry them on their shoulders in the street, put up posters praising them, and name streets after them. Contrast this with the almost daily attacks on Israeli civilians making all citizens fearful of going shopping for groceries, riding a bus, or stopping in for a piece of pizza.

[StarvingStudent47]

in some way it is since the Israeli army is often acting like it thinks all arabs are (potential) terrorists...
Every time I go to an airport in the United States, I am treated as a potential terrorist. It makes things safer for everyone, including myself. That is not "collective punishment;" it is "good security."

Carpet-bombing Jenin would be "collective punishment." But the IDF simply does not operate that way. I shudder to think what would happen if another country--say, the People's Republic of China--was faced with daily terror attack. THEN you would see what collective punishment is.


and besides...who defines 'terrorists'?
Well, if someone who deliberately blows up a busful of civilians--including many children--isn't a terrorist, I don't know who is.

[Herrmannek]

If the Palestinians had tanks or chance to face with your army on equal conditions they would probaly stop blowing buses, and start with blowing your parlament, but they haven't any chance to do that so they do what can do under presure of your strenght.

You have the force and only you can stop that war.

You ask why only Israel. Becouse Palestina isn't normal "country", it's distribiuted system with great inertia. It has few independent organisations with own aims an commands, no one can't stop them remotely. It's almost obvious that those organisations will bomb few buses after cease fire. Instant reaction to these bombings only pours oil to the fire, this fire must be extinguished by themselves not by Israel.

They can't stop but you can. Just do it and be patient.

[UoUo]

If the Palestinians had tanks or chance to face with your army on equal conditions they would probaly stop blowing buses, and start with blowing your parlament, but they haven't any chance to do that so they do what can do under presure of your strenght.

You have the force and only you can stop that war.

You ask why only Israel. Becouse Palestina isn't normal "country", it's distribiuted system with great inertia. It has few independent organisations with own aims an commands, no one can't stop them remotely. It's almost obvious that those organisations will bomb few buses after cease fire. Instant reaction to these bombings only pours oil to the fire, this fire must be extinguished by themselves not by Israel.

They can't stop but you can. Just do it and be patient.

the pal' can act against soldair's...

and...stop and do what ? wait for teror ?

[Herrmannek]

Someone must be smarter ;). I didn't say wait for terror, just don't act from force position. Don't crush homes, air strike cars, tank ride their cities. There must be other(humanitarian&politicaly correct) way to punish criminals & terrorists.

[UoUo]

Someone must be smarter ;). I didn't say wait for terror, just don't act from force position. Don't crush homes, air strike cars, tank ride their cities. There must be other(humanitarian&politicaly correct) way to punish criminals & terrorists.

I must tell you 1 thing..idf is the most humanitarian army in the world.

[Herrmannek]

Watikan's army is most humanitarian army in the world(they haven't lethal wepons) ;),

but back to topic.
IDF isn't humanitarian even if it tries:
*)IDF kills innocents(by accidents for example).
**)Destroyng buildings wich were used as snipers nest also involve innocents. I don't think that all that buildings were used by snipers with knowledge and/or aprovment of the owners or habitants.
***)& more

[UoUo]

Watikan's army is most humanitarian army in the world(they haven't lethal wepons) ;),

but back to topic.
IDF isn't humanitarian even if it tries:
*)IDF kills innocents(by accidents for example).
**)Destroyng buildings wich were used as snipers nest also involve innocents. I don't think that all that buildings were used by snipers with knowledge and/or aprovment of the owners or habitants.
***)& more

and the uk wasn't do that if the need too ? and us ? and germmany ? and france ? everybody do this...

idf is very humanitarian....if france for example whould be in the same place where we are...she was kick the pal' heads...without thiking about the innocents.....

[Herrmannek]

I didn't said that other are/were/will be humanitarian. Virtualy none is, but ALWAYS can be more humanitarian and in my opinion situation demand this.

[StarvingStudent47]

What is so "humanitarian" about letting your own six-year-olds be blown up instead of killing people who intentionally target six-year-olds? Don't the lives of Israeli children who are DELIBERATELY targeted by terrorists matter when you're tallying up whether hunting terrorists is "humanitarian"?

The IDF is, from what I've seen, the most careful military in the world when it comes to distinguishing combatants from non-combatants in urban combat. Compare IDF actions in Jenin to Russian Army actions in Grozny and it will put things into perspective.

It is a terrible tragedy that civilians do sometimes get accidentally hurt in urban violence. But if Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups didn't build their terror networks in residential neighborhoods, this could be avoided.

[StarvingStudent47]

Watikan's army is most humanitarian army in the world(they haven't lethal wepons) ;),

but back to topic.
IDF isn't humanitarian even if it tries:
*)IDF kills innocents(by accidents for example).
**)Destroyng buildings wich were used as snipers nest also involve innocents. I don't think that all that buildings were used by snipers with knowledge and/or aprovment of the owners or habitants.
***)& more

You're taking the Ghandi approach to international relations. But that approach only works if the other side has a sense of GUILT and SHAME over harming pacifists. That worked against the British, and against segregationists in 1950s America. But similar techniques have been utter failures against non-democratic, more violent societies, such as China (Tianenmen Square), Stalin's Russia, et cetera.

I really doubt that shame would stop Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest of Arab terrorists. So the pacifist approach would just result in about seven million dead Israelis.

Seven million dead civilians doesn't strike me as very "humanitarian."

[UoUo]

What is so "humanitarian" about letting your own six-year-olds be blown up instead of killing people who intentionally target six-year-olds? Don't the lives of Israeli children who are DELIBERATELY targeted by terrorists matter when you're tallying up whether hunting terrorists is "humanitarian"?

The IDF is, from what I've seen, the most careful military in the world when it comes to distinguishing combatants from non-combatants in urban combat. Compare IDF actions in Jenin to Russian Army actions in Grozny and it will put things into perspective.

It is a terrible tragedy that civilians do sometimes get accidentally hurt in urban violence. But if Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups didn't build their terror networks in residential neighborhoods, this could be avoided.

:hug:

[DE_Six]

I got a feeling a Palestine (is that the right word?) would say exactely the same as UoUo, only replacing terrorist with Israëli... which is for a big part the whole problem..

Notice that UoUo said "until the TERRORISTS all die," not "until the ARABS all die." The statements "until ISRAELIS all die" is in no way parallel to "until TERRORISTS all die."

This comparison is immaterial. Both sides have extremists that claim there can be no peace until the other one is gone for good. So thinks the Hamas terrorists, but so do the ultra-orthodox jewish settlers. I do not think most Israelis want all Palestinians dead, not anymore than every Palestinian wants all Jews dead.

I think (and couldn't go any further, this a debate of opinion) that the most crucial question today is the one of the settlements. Now, I support Israel in its right to exist, but the "illegal" settlements have to go. A majority of Israelis probably don't care for them and they would be right. They create major problems, mobilize huge numbers of Tsahal troops for their defense, require special, highly protected roads that avoid Palestinian towns and benefit only a fraction of the Israeli population, the ultra-orthodox settlers who are convinced of their biblical right and duty to own and exploit the whole Judea-Samaria (sp?). Problem is, ever since Israel existed, those fanatics have had strong weight in the political balance. In some regards, they keep Sharon in power right now. Letting go of these would be a good step in the right direction.

Of course, the Palestinians must also make an effort, but understand that they live in terrible conditions and have little control on their very existence. From road blocks that close and open as the wind change, curfews with varying hours, often imposed arbitrarily (like during all major jewish holy days, for increased security), work and construction permits that become increasingly hard to obtain, it's understandable they might resort to crazy ways of resistance. Think of it, young Palestinians don't blow themselves up on the promise of virgins, they do it out of hopelessness and despair. Over half the Palestinian population is under 25 and these youths have no future. No wonder they resort to anything.

And that anything are the extremist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in Lebanon. These sickos have hijacked the misery of the O.T. youths and use them to advance their cause, often themselves under the influence of foreign power (Iran backs Hezbollah and Hamas, Syria backs Amal in Lebanon). And they're good at manipulation. They build hospitals, schools, and so on, so the population perceives them as protectors, while they exact their toll on the gullible youth. These have to go, too, as much if not more than the colonies.

But unlike Israel, the Palestinian Authority is an empty shell, it has no control over whoever and is further plagued by internal disputes. Bite me that Arafat accepted to uphold the truce (that was shattered again a few days ago) when the US-EU-Russia left him out of the picture in favor of Abbas.
Therefore, Israel is at a clear advantage, it has control. It would only be the noble thing to do to make the first step. It has the capability to ease the pressure on the Palestinians, which have no control over the terrorists that kill allegedly in their name. Terror cannot be fought by an army, and it can't be stopped from recruiting as long as there is a pool of dellusioned and idle souls to talk into repainting a pizza parlor with their guts. Face it, terror is not going to stop by setting up roadblocks, imposing curfews and overall bullying the population. It might sound like safety measures, but consider that these measures also prevent a large number of Palestinians of working and educating themselves. To an ever-so-slightly biased observer, it looks quite like Israel is bent on destroying the Palestinians.

Someone has to make the first step. Palestinians are way too weak to engage in a unified effort on their own, whereas Israelis can. Of course, one cannot reasonably ask Israel to just stand still and take the hits out of noble intents, but if no one moves, this quagmire is dead-locked. And although Israelis will continue to suffer losses, in the end it is the Palestinians that will lose. They will stop existing as a nation, surviving as a diaspora. In an ironic twist of fate, they might as well become a landless nation, much like the Jews until 1948.

I recognize the need and right of Israel to exist and prosper, but it becomes more and more obvious that it is achieved at the expense of somebody else. When the situation is under control, it will be vital to ignore those who claim all the land for themselves on both sides and share the ground. I don't believe in sacred rights over land, from neither sides. The paradox of the aliyah is that in 1948, powers foreign to the natives took land from a people that had plenty to give some to a people that had none and look at what we got now. By filling out a desire of justice, a new injustice was born. I personnally (and have little to back that) believe that both people can coexist. The last obstacle (the extremists on both sides) is unfortunately a tough one to overcome.

How to regain control, I have no idea. Replacing the Israeli troops on security duties in the O.T. to ease on the impression that Tsahal is an invading force might be a start, but who to put in place? I personnally have little faith in the UN. Most of their large-scale peacekeeping missions in the past fifty years have resulted in major f**k-ups, but what can you expect from an organization that once put Libya at the head of human rights commission? US and/or NATO troops are out of the question, the terrorist groups wouldn't see any difference with the Israelis. And even then, what can guarantee that terror will stop, or at least be severely hampered? Add to this the numerous forces that interact behind the scenes and that we have no idea of, you got a pretty insoluble mess.

As for Tsahal being humanitarian, well...It is tasked with occupation duties right now, and as always when an army is deployed in hostile territories, it will act forcefully to protect itself and prevent chaos, but that rules out all humanitarian behaviors. Treat everyone like a suspect...Besides, the autonomy and relative impunity they benefit from opens the door to abuse. There has been reports of human rights violations. I'm not accusing Tsahal of anything, I just don't believe they deserve a "humanitarian" label any more that any other occupation army in history.

[UoUo]

Read this...i hope it's going to explain you what is going on here better then me.





Didn't Israel drive out 600,000 Palestinians at gunpoint in 1948 and take their land?

Most Arabs who left Israel did so under the orders of the Arab leader, the Grand Mufti, to withdraw and let the Arab armies "drive the Jews into the sea," which they attempted in 1948. However Israel won that war. Not all of the Arabs left, and Israel is now 18% Arab. These Arabs have full citizenship rights, can own property, vote, and have 14 representatives in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament.

I've heard that some Israelis say there is no such thing as Palestinians. How can they say that?

Up until the 1967 war, the Arabs living in Israel did not even call themselves Palestinians -- twenty years after the founding of the modern state of Israel. The name Palestine came from the Romans who destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. To humiliate the Jews, the Romans renamed the land Palestine after their mortal enemies, the Philistines. The modern land of Palestine was given that name by the British when they took control over from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. In British Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians.

(See "What is a Palestinian?" at Masada 2000)

Why doesn't Israel just give back the West Bank to the Palestinians? Then there will be peace.

In 1948, Israel's Arab neighbors tried to destroy the State of Israel. They rejected a Palestinian State, which the UN offered them at the same time as when Israel was founded. Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan. Currently Jordan has a peace treaty with Israel. The West Bank, which Jews call Judea and Samaria, is part of the ancient kingdom of Israel, and has been home to Arabs and Jews for thousands of years. Arafat himself said he will take back Israel in its entirety, if he has to do it all at once or piece by piece.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is looking for any excuse to invade and shoot Palestinians. Why did the Israeli people even elect him?

The directives given the IDF are strictly against the taking of innocent civilian life. Sharon withdrew ELEVEN times from the West Bank to effect a cease-fire. Each time Israel was attacked by suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority failed to arrest them And instead paid their families awards. They even named streets after them as "martyrs". How can anyone take an enemy seriously that encourages the terror attacks? In 2000, President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak tried to offer the Palestinians a state, which included 95% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected the offer and launched the latest intifada or uprising. The sniper killings and suicide bombings are the method used to attack Israeli citizens. The Israeli people, who were angered when Arafat rejected Barak's offer, elected the hard-liner Sharon by a la! ndslide. Sharon has prevented more terror attacks than he has instigated. To blame him for the terror attacks is like blaming a woman for being raped.

Why are there so many more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis? Doesn't this prove that Israel is the aggressor here?

Several reasons combine to explain the differential death toll. First, the numbers are skewed. The Palestinians count the suicide bombers as "civilian casualties". They also count terrorists killed in shootouts with the police or IDF. Fact is, if civilians were only counted, Israeli casualties would be higher. Snipers who open fire on civilians are immediately hunted down and arrested, but many fight until they are shot. A big factor appears to be Palestinian gunmen who hide themselves in populated areas, which causes a high civilian death toll when the IDF tries to shoot back at them. The IDF has a policy of a measured response to a terrorist attack. These reprisals rarely involve death or injury. Also, given the P.A.'s problems with math, such as claiming 1,500 killed in Jenin when it was 52, their calculations are highly suspect. Israel has 10,000 people who are invalids, in comas or scarred in other ways for life.

Wait a minute! Israel has a heavily armed state-of-the-art military and the Palestinians only have rocks and a few old guns. Shouldn't our sympathies be with the Palestinians who only want their freedom from oppression and the opportunity for self-rule?

The Palestinians are using more than rocks, although stonings can be very violent too, causing death and serious injury. They have Qasem rockets. They have grenades. They have M-16's and Kalashnikovs [Ed.: Russian made assault rifles]. Arafat demanded weapons claiming he needed an armed police force to keep order. Those guns, provided by none other than Israel, have been linked with numerous terrorist attacks. Many weapons have been smuggled in from Egypt as well. The Palestinian police ARE the terrorists such as Fatah and Al Aksa. Currently the Palestinians, have self-rule under the Oslo accords yet persist in attacking Israel.

Don't the Israelis build roads and freeways that bypass Palestinian villages and they aren't allowed to use them?

They do bypass them. They were built because when Israelis drive by them they are shot at or have rocks thrown at them. Boulders dropped from heights above the roads have killed some. If the Israelis built freeways on Arab land, they'd complain the Israelis were taking Arab land or that they were damaging the environment.

Every time a Palestinian wants to go somewhere they have to go thru an Israeli checkpoint. Isn't this humiliating for the Palestinian people?

Humiliating? US citizens have to wait two hours at checkpoints at the airport. It's called security against terrorism. Suicide bombers kill Arabs too.

The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) regularly prevents ambulances from picking up sick and wounded people. Isn't this a crime against humanity?

They don't prevent medical care. However, time and time again the Arabs have transported bombs and terrorists in ambulances so now they must be thoroughly checked. Israel gives free medical care to many Palestinians. In Jenin last April, the IDF supplied blood to the hospital for wounded Palestinians. But the blood was rejected because the Palestinians would not use Jewish blood. So the IDF using military transports brought in blood from Jordan.

The Israelis have stopped the Palestinians from normal commerce, from employment, and now they are suffering from food shortages. How can they justify this?

Commerce and employment were higher when Israel controlled the area. In nine years with billions of dollars in aid the PA has failed even to feed its people. PA warlords under Arafat control UN food allotments and even sell it on the black market. It has been the terrorist attacks that have made business as usual impossible and have hurt the Palestinian economy.

When the Israelis say that the Arabs only wish to drive them into the sea, aren't they just being paranoid and using this excuse to justify their aggressions against the Palestinians?

5.5 million Jews. 250 million Arabs. Missiles with germ and radiological warheads on Israel's northern frontier controlled by Hizbollah. 21 terrorist attacks a day against common Israelis. The Arabs said "into the sea" in 1948 and even after Oslo. This is paranoid???

Didn't the International Conference in Durban, South Africa condemn Israel as a racist state?

The conference was made up of Arab dictatorships pushing their own agenda. The US and most of Europe boycotted the vote.

The Palestinians and the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years. Aren't they equally responsible for the violence?

They have not been fighting for thousands of years. The Arabs persecuted Jews. The difference is the Arabs won't tolerate a Jewish presence in the Muslim Middle East -- period. The Jews offer to negotiate peace but the Arabs are really just negotiating the end of Israel.

The suicide bombings are terrible, but aren't they done by a small handful of extremists? Isn't it wrong to condemn all the Palestinian people for the acts of a few?

Evidence shows that as many as twelve extremist groups conduct terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. Hamas, Hezbollah, The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah are a few of them. In many cases, the same individuals who are security for the Palestinian Authority conduct the terrorist attacks. Opinion polls among the Palestinian population reveal 90% approve of the suicide bombings. Thousands dance in the streets when a lethal suicide bombing is executed. The few who would work for peace run the risk of being arrested or lynched for being a collaborator with Israel. Historically, the Arabs persecuted Jews. The idea of wearing a yellow star as the mark of Jew was begun by the Arabs and copied by the Nazis. Just a note..the Arabs even have suicide bomber trading cards now like we have baseball! cards.

Why does Israel practice collective punishment against the Palestinian people?

Israel does not practice collective punishment. The security checkpoints are there solely to prevent more suicide bombings and attacks. During a reprisal, such as the bombing of a house from which sniper shots have been fired, a warning is given and THAT HOUSE is destroyed. Likewise, wanted criminals are found and executed since it is impossible to hold them accountable in a court of law under Arafat's regime. Often it is easy to determine the culprit. The Palestinians carry them on their shoulders in the street, put up posters praising them, and name streets after them. Contrast this with the almost daily attacks on Israeli civilians making all citizens fearful of going shopping for groceries, riding a bus, or stopping in for a piece of pizza.

I know that the Israelis don't want to deal with Prime Minister Yassir Arafat, but didn't the majority of the Palestinian people elect him?

Arafat ran the same type of Arab election as Saddam Hussein or Bashir Assad. He ran against one candidate, an 85 year-old woman who told everyone to vote for Arafat. When he first took control of the territories he murdered all the Arabs who administered the territories under Israel as "collaborators" in a sports stadium. Even Hitler and Stalin could claim to be democratically elected leaders the same as Arafat. But were they? The PA suspended all elections until President Bush said a "reformed" leadership was needed. Arafat's "reform" does not include his stepping down. He has postponed elections twice and now says not for a year until he can once again control the outcome.

Aren't the Jewish settlers on the West Bank just an excuse for Sharon to invade the Palestinian areas? And given how much opposition the Palestinians have to building homes on the West Bank, isn't Sharon just encouraging more suicide bombings?

Many Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, believe the land of Judea and Samaria to be divinely given to the Jewish people. However, the Jewish settlements are on 1.7% of the West Bank. While home-building by Jews is often given as a reason for conducting more suicide bombing attacks (sadly documented in video tapes made by the teenage bombers shortly before they conducted an attack), does this sound even slightly reasonable? To commit suicide and mass murder to protest the building of homes by people of another religion? The settlements have residents who own homes and businesses as well. Why can't they stay as part of a state of Palestine and be Palestinian citizens as part of a peace settlement? The reason is the Ar! abs who accuse democratic Israel of racism repeatedly say NO JEWS may live anywhere in Palestine.

The conflict between the Muslims and the Jews is religous at its core. Isn't it really an insoluble issue marked by religious intolerance on both sides?

While there are sects of Islam which use passages in the Koran to justify the killing of infidels, there are also passages in the Koran which forbid suicide. Other passages teach that lands given by the Lord to other peoples are given for a reason known only to God. Likewise, religious Jews, who remain fixed on prophesies of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, the return of the Jewish people to the State of Israel, and the coming of the messiah are not likely to give in to Arab pressure to leave their holy sites. For the Arabs it is a tribal affair of honor and vengeance. Racism is at its core. Racism is a sickness and sicknesses can be cured. Israel seriously wants peace with the Arabs, but not at the expense of her existence being whittled away bit by bit through terrorism until she is destroyed. The healing will come when the world focuses its energies on helping the Arab world to come out of generations of tribal warfare, the subjugation of women, illiteracy and feudal kingdoms. These are the conditions, which spawn hatred of the Jews, which is only slightly more vehement than their hatred of the Christians

[California Joe]

Dude makes a strong rational arguement.

[StarvingStudent47]

As for Tsahal being humanitarian, well...It is tasked with occupation duties right now, and as always when an army is deployed in hostile territories, it will act forcefully to protect itself and prevent chaos, but that rules out all humanitarian behaviors. Treat everyone like a suspect...Besides, the autonomy and relative impunity they benefit from opens the door to abuse. There has been reports of human rights violations. I'm not accusing Tsahal of anything, I just don't believe they deserve a "humanitarian" label any more that any other occupation army in history.

I disagree with that last statement. Not all occupations are brutal and evil. I think America's post-WWII occupation of Japan was the best thing that ever happened to that country. That occupation introduced democracy for the first time, and laid the groundwork for Japan to be a healthy, prosperous, peaceful society.

The sad fact is, Palestinians living under Israeli "occupation" are actually better off than most Arabs living under Arab rule throughout the Middle East. Saddam killed so many of his own people that he needed to build mass graves. He dumped chemical weapons on unarmed civilians. Dictators in Syria have sometimes indiscriminately shelled their own cities, killing tens of thousands of civilians. Israel has checkpoints where they frisk people for guns and bombs. Are you really going to tell me that life in 2002 Ramallah was worse than life in 2002 Umm Qasr, just because the West Bank was "occupied"?

I've never understood why so-called "humanitarian" groups like Amnesty International flip their lids when an Israeli or American soldier accidentally shoots a civilian when he is ambushed by gunmen in a residential area, whereas A.I. turn a blind eye to Arabs massacring Arabs by the thousands. It reeks of double standard and ulterior motive.

[Seiyuuki]

Is it justifiable to intentionally target civilian targets?

[James]

In World War Two, the U.S. and Britain carpet bombed German cities. The U.S. bombed Japanese cities. It was widely accepted that bombong wasn't precise, and that there would be great numbers of civilian casualties.

This brings up another point, I think. Britain, Germany, Japan, and the U.S. have moved beyond this history. It is a part of us, but, speaking for myself, I don't have anything against Germans or Japanese. It's in the past. I've lived in Germany and Japan, and I felt no animosity from the natives (at least not because of World War Two...)

Israel and the Palestinians (and a lot of other places) need to stop using history as a crutch, or as a way to give their existence some kind of meaning. What would the Israelis do if, tomorrow, every single Palestinian left for Jordan or Egypt? What would the Palestinians do if every single Israeli suddenly left for wherever they had an inclination to go?

I don't mean to paint with such a broad brush - there are more good people than bad out there, I think. The conflict just makes me think that for some of these people, their world is the size of a postage stamp. It's sad.

[Seiyuuki]

Read this...i hope it's going to explain you what is going on here better then me.





Didn't Israel drive out 600,000 Palestinians at gunpoint in 1948 and take their land?

Most Arabs who left Israel did so under the orders of the Arab leader, the Grand Mufti, to withdraw and let the Arab armies "drive the Jews into the sea," which they attempted in 1948. However Israel won that war. Not all of the Arabs left, and Israel is now 18% Arab. These Arabs have full citizenship rights, can own property, vote, and have 14 representatives in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliament.

I've heard that some Israelis say there is no such thing as Palestinians. How can they say that?

Up until the 1967 war, the Arabs living in Israel did not even call themselves Palestinians -- twenty years after the founding of the modern state of Israel. The name Palestine came from the Romans who destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. To humiliate the Jews, the Romans renamed the land Palestine after their mortal enemies, the Philistines. The modern land of Palestine was given that name by the British when they took control over from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. In British Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians.

(See "What is a Palestinian?" at Masada 2000)

Why doesn't Israel just give back the West Bank to the Palestinians? Then there will be peace.

In 1948, Israel's Arab neighbors tried to destroy the State of Israel. They rejected a Palestinian State, which the UN offered them at the same time as when Israel was founded. Prior to 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan. Currently Jordan has a peace treaty with Israel. The West Bank, which Jews call Judea and Samaria, is part of the ancient kingdom of Israel, and has been home to Arabs and Jews for thousands of years. Arafat himself said he will take back Israel in its entirety, if he has to do it all at once or piece by piece.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is looking for any excuse to invade and shoot Palestinians. Why did the Israeli people even elect him?

The directives given the IDF are strictly against the taking of innocent civilian life. Sharon withdrew ELEVEN times from the West Bank to effect a cease-fire. Each time Israel was attacked by suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority failed to arrest them And instead paid their families awards. They even named streets after them as "martyrs". How can anyone take an enemy seriously that encourages the terror attacks? In 2000, President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak tried to offer the Palestinians a state, which included 95% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected the offer and launched the latest intifada or uprising. The sniper killings and suicide bombings are the method used to attack Israeli citizens. The Israeli people, who were angered when Arafat rejected Barak's offer, elected the hard-liner Sharon by a la! ndslide. Sharon has prevented more terror attacks than he has instigated. To blame him for the terror attacks is like blaming a woman for being raped.

Why are there so many more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis? Doesn't this prove that Israel is the aggressor here?

Several reasons combine to explain the differential death toll. First, the numbers are skewed. The Palestinians count the suicide bombers as "civilian casualties". They also count terrorists killed in shootouts with the police or IDF. Fact is, if civilians were only counted, Israeli casualties would be higher. Snipers who open fire on civilians are immediately hunted down and arrested, but many fight until they are shot. A big factor appears to be Palestinian gunmen who hide themselves in populated areas, which causes a high civilian death toll when the IDF tries to shoot back at them. The IDF has a policy of a measured response to a terrorist attack. These reprisals rarely involve death or injury. Also, given the P.A.'s problems with math, such as claiming 1,500 killed in Jenin when it was 52, their calculations are highly suspect. Israel has 10,000 people who are invalids, in comas or scarred in other ways for life.

Wait a minute! Israel has a heavily armed state-of-the-art military and the Palestinians only have rocks and a few old guns. Shouldn't our sympathies be with the Palestinians who only want their freedom from oppression and the opportunity for self-rule?

The Palestinians are using more than rocks, although stonings can be very violent too, causing death and serious injury. They have Qasem rockets. They have grenades. They have M-16's and Kalashnikovs [Ed.: Russian made assault rifles]. Arafat demanded weapons claiming he needed an armed police force to keep order. Those guns, provided by none other than Israel, have been linked with numerous terrorist attacks. Many weapons have been smuggled in from Egypt as well. The Palestinian police ARE the terrorists such as Fatah and Al Aksa. Currently the Palestinians, have self-rule under the Oslo accords yet persist in attacking Israel.

Don't the Israelis build roads and freeways that bypass Palestinian villages and they aren't allowed to use them?

They do bypass them. They were built because when Israelis drive by them they are shot at or have rocks thrown at them. Boulders dropped from heights above the roads have killed some. If the Israelis built freeways on Arab land, they'd complain the Israelis were taking Arab land or that they were damaging the environment.

Every time a Palestinian wants to go somewhere they have to go thru an Israeli checkpoint. Isn't this humiliating for the Palestinian people?

Humiliating? US citizens have to wait two hours at checkpoints at the airport. It's called security against terrorism. Suicide bombers kill Arabs too.

The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) regularly prevents ambulances from picking up sick and wounded people. Isn't this a crime against humanity?

They don't prevent medical care. However, time and time again the Arabs have transported bombs and terrorists in ambulances so now they must be thoroughly checked. Israel gives free medical care to many Palestinians. In Jenin last April, the IDF supplied blood to the hospital for wounded Palestinians. But the blood was rejected because the Palestinians would not use Jewish blood. So the IDF using military transports brought in blood from Jordan.

The Israelis have stopped the Palestinians from normal commerce, from employment, and now they are suffering from food shortages. How can they justify this?

Commerce and employment were higher when Israel controlled the area. In nine years with billions of dollars in aid the PA has failed even to feed its people. PA warlords under Arafat control UN food allotments and even sell it on the black market. It has been the terrorist attacks that have made business as usual impossible and have hurt the Palestinian economy.

When the Israelis say that the Arabs only wish to drive them into the sea, aren't they just being paranoid and using this excuse to justify their aggressions against the Palestinians?

5.5 million Jews. 250 million Arabs. Missiles with germ and radiological warheads on Israel's northern frontier controlled by Hizbollah. 21 terrorist attacks a day against common Israelis. The Arabs said "into the sea" in 1948 and even after Oslo. This is paranoid???

Didn't the International Conference in Durban, South Africa condemn Israel as a racist state?

The conference was made up of Arab dictatorships pushing their own agenda. The US and most of Europe boycotted the vote.

The Palestinians and the Jews have been fighting for thousands of years. Aren't they equally responsible for the violence?

They have not been fighting for thousands of years. The Arabs persecuted Jews. The difference is the Arabs won't tolerate a Jewish presence in the Muslim Middle East -- period. The Jews offer to negotiate peace but the Arabs are really just negotiating the end of Israel.

The suicide bombings are terrible, but aren't they done by a small handful of extremists? Isn't it wrong to condemn all the Palestinian people for the acts of a few?

Evidence shows that as many as twelve extremist groups conduct terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. Hamas, Hezbollah, The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah are a few of them. In many cases, the same individuals who are security for the Palestinian Authority conduct the terrorist attacks. Opinion polls among the Palestinian population reveal 90% approve of the suicide bombings. Thousands dance in the streets when a lethal suicide bombing is executed. The few who would work for peace run the risk of being arrested or lynched for being a collaborator with Israel. Historically, the Arabs persecuted Jews. The idea of wearing a yellow star as the mark of Jew was begun by the Arabs and copied by the Nazis. Just a note..the Arabs even have suicide bomber trading cards now like we have baseball! cards.

Why does Israel practice collective punishment against the Palestinian people?

Israel does not practice collective punishment. The security checkpoints are there solely to prevent more suicide bombings and attacks. During a reprisal, such as the bombing of a house from which sniper shots have been fired, a warning is given and THAT HOUSE is destroyed. Likewise, wanted criminals are found and executed since it is impossible to hold them accountable in a court of law under Arafat's regime. Often it is easy to determine the culprit. The Palestinians carry them on their shoulders in the street, put up posters praising them, and name streets after them. Contrast this with the almost daily attacks on Israeli civilians making all citizens fearful of going shopping for groceries, riding a bus, or stopping in for a piece of pizza.

I know that the Israelis don't want to deal with Prime Minister Yassir Arafat, but didn't the majority of the Palestinian people elect him?

Arafat ran the same type of Arab election as Saddam Hussein or Bashir Assad. He ran against one candidate, an 85 year-old woman who told everyone to vote for Arafat. When he first took control of the territories he murdered all the Arabs who administered the territories under Israel as "collaborators" in a sports stadium. Even Hitler and Stalin could claim to be democratically elected leaders the same as Arafat. But were they? The PA suspended all elections until President Bush said a "reformed" leadership was needed. Arafat's "reform" does not include his stepping down. He has postponed elections twice and now says not for a year until he can once again control the outcome.

Aren't the Jewish settlers on the West Bank just an excuse for Sharon to invade the Palestinian areas? And given how much opposition the Palestinians have to building homes on the West Bank, isn't Sharon just encouraging more suicide bombings?

Many Jews, especially the Orthodox Jews, believe the land of Judea and Samaria to be divinely given to the Jewish people. However, the Jewish settlements are on 1.7% of the West Bank. While home-building by Jews is often given as a reason for conducting more suicide bombing attacks (sadly documented in video tapes made by the teenage bombers shortly before they conducted an attack), does this sound even slightly reasonable? To commit suicide and mass murder to protest the building of homes by people of another religion? The settlements have residents who own homes and businesses as well. Why can't they stay as part of a state of Palestine and be Palestinian citizens as part of a peace settlement? The reason is the Ar! abs who accuse democratic Israel of racism repeatedly say NO JEWS may live anywhere in Palestine.

The conflict between the Muslims and the Jews is religous at its core. Isn't it really an insoluble issue marked by religious intolerance on both sides?

While there are sects of Islam which use passages in the Koran to justify the killing of infidels, there are also passages in the Koran which forbid suicide. Other passages teach that lands given by the Lord to other peoples are given for a reason known only to God. Likewise, religious Jews, who remain fixed on prophesies of the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, the return of the Jewish people to the State of Israel, and the coming of the messiah are not likely to give in to Arab pressure to leave their holy sites. For the Arabs it is a tribal affair of honor and vengeance. Racism is at its core. Racism is a sickness and sicknesses can be cured. Israel seriously wants peace with the Arabs, but not at the expense of her existence being whittled away bit by bit through terrorism until she is destroyed. The healing will come when the world focuses its energies on helping the Arab world to come out of generations of tribal warfare, the subjugation of women, illiteracy and feudal kingdoms. These are the conditions, which spawn hatred of the Jews, which is only slightly more vehement than their hatred of the Christians

[Seiyuuki]

Do you know how many threads there are just on this subject alone?

[FallenAngel]

UoUo.....thats quite possibly the BEST description of the situation in Israel/Palestine to date. I've never been there, but I follow the situation VERY closely in the news. I'm amazed how the AP and other groups can write paragraphs about how IDF units blew up Palestinian homes, killed Palestinian civilians, etc. and then mention in the second to last sentence that the IDF units fired only after being fired upon.

Granted thats a generalization, but don't think that alot of people are anti-Israeli (I dont want to say "antisemetic" because as you pointed out, theres many arab Israelis) but rather, alot of people are misinformed of the situation. :)

[DE_Six]

I disagree with that last statement. Not all occupations are brutal and evil. I think America's post-WWII occupation of Japan was the best thing that ever happened to that country. That occupation introduced democracy for the first time, and laid the groundwork for Japan to be a healthy, prosperous, peaceful society.

The sad fact is, Palestinians living under Israeli "occupation" are actually better off than most Arabs living under Arab rule throughout the Middle East. Saddam killed so many of his own people that he needed to build mass graves. He dumped chemical weapons on unarmed civilians. Dictators in Syria have sometimes indiscriminately shelled their own cities, killing tens of thousands of civilians. Israel has checkpoints where they frisk people for guns and bombs. Are you really going to tell me that life in 2002 Ramallah was worse than life in 2002 Umm Qasr, just because the West Bank was "occupied"?

I've never understood why so-called "humanitarian" groups like Amnesty International flip their lids when an Israeli or American soldier accidentally shoots a civilian when he is ambushed by gunmen in a residential area, whereas A.I. turn a blind eye to Arabs massacring Arabs by the thousands. It reeks of double standard and ulterior motive.


"Not all occupations are brutal and evil. I think America's post-WWII occupation of Japan was the best thing that ever happened to that country. "

I did not say brutal and evil. I said it opened the door to abuse. Not necessarily on a large scale, but abuse nonetheless. I agree with you about the overall benefits to Japan from US occupation, however, it came at a price. Ask Japanese people what they think of those benefits when drunk Marines/sailors on portside leave wreck a local tavern, or this occurance of rape on a minor that occured three years ago in Yokosuka. Overall, Japan can express some gratitude, but witnessing this, locals won't think rationally; emotions will take over. Would you care for the gift of democracy if foreign soldiers stationed in your town raped your sister or daughter? I think not, and this is what happens in the minds of the occupied. US forces aren't evil, neither are IDF, but when you put soldiers in a foreign land, you must deal with the possibility of a few airheads abusing their power, and I think it's happening in the West bank as much as anywhere else, on a small scale maybe, but there nonetheless. Besides, whereas the US occupation of Japan led to democracy, free trade and related benefits, the occupation of the West Bank/Gaza is a security measures and brings absolutely no benefit to the Palestinians.

Of course, if you compare this to say, Russia in Chechnya, it looks gentle. But it's not the same. The US occupation of Japan was indeed peaceful compared to what the Russians did in berlin in 1945 (over 200,000 rapes, none punished, often rather encouraged). But is that a surprise? Call it double standard if you will, but I have higher expectations from liberal democracies like the US and Israel, than I have from Russia or China. Putting them on the same standard in terms of human rights records would be akin to pitting a petting zoo and a slaughterhouse in a cruelty contest. I think that some human rights groups follow the same thinking. I say some because some of them are plain disconnected with reality, still others do a good job.

"The sad fact is, Palestinians living under Israeli "occupation" are actually better off than most Arabs living under Arab rule throughout the Middle East."

Don't be so sure. Life under most Arab regimes is hard and burdened by fear, but there is work, access to some education, a possibility to lead a semi-normal life. In the O.T.s, life has virtually stopped. Up to 70% of the active population (over 15, no disabilities) are unemployed, because they don't have work permits. The travel restrictions prevent many from attending school on a regular basis or from getting to work regularly, which leads to lay-offs. The economy is at a full halt. And I don't mention the unavoidable consequences of the military operations. When a missile strike a terrorist hide-out, nobody cleans up the rubbles. Many streets are impracticable because of that. It's all lost. Same for buildings used as headquarters or entry points during incursions. Many of them have had their walls tore down to allow soldiers to move from inside as a cover against snipers. All these small things don't equate to a full-scale bombing of course, but it accumulates and makes life harder and harder.

"Israel has checkpoints where they frisk people for guns and bombs. Are you really going to tell me that life in 2002 Ramallah was worse than life in 2002 Umm Qasr, just because the West Bank was "occupied"?"

Those checkpoints sometimes take up to 10-12 hours to cross at the most important ones, like those on the Ramallah-Jenin road. Sometimes, drivers will wait hours only to be turned back because the check point closes. Restriction of movement takes a high toll on people who rely on jobs and supplies available only outside their towns, which are virtually sealed-off. People in Um Qasr didn't have to deal with that. They lived under scrutiny from the regime, the economy was slow, but they still had a life. They were free to an extent, free to visit their family in other cities, free to work where they pleased. The difference is that they did not have to deal with a foreign security force highly suspicious of their every whereabouts. Also take in consideration the fact that their ego was spared in that they were not under control from non-muslim or non-arab forces. We've seen the power and meaning of Arab nationalism time and again.

[StarvingStudent47]

[quote=StarvingStudent47]
Of course, if you compare this to say, Russia in Chechnya, it looks gentle. But it's not the same. The US occupation of Japan was indeed peaceful compared to what the Russians did in berlin in 1945 (over 200,000 rapes, none punished, often rather encouraged). But is that a surprise? Call it double standard if you will, but I have higher expectations from liberal democracies like the US and Israel, than I have from Russia or China. Putting them on the same standard in terms of human rights records would be akin to pitting a petting zoo and a slaughterhouse in a cruelty contest. I think that some human rights groups follow the same thinking. I say some because some of them are plain disconnected with reality, still others do a good job.

I think that this is a terrible way of setting priorities. If you want to really help people, do you want to go after regimes that butcher hundreds of thousands, or regimes that inconvenience hundreds of thousands in response to daily terrorist attack? I know what I would set at priority #1.

Do you really believe that abolishing checkpoints (that are checking for terrorists, because there have been roughly one attempted terror attack per day for the past three years straight) is MORE important than ending genocides and massacres in other countries, just because it's military dictators who are digging the mass graves? If so, you and I see the world in a very different way.

[Seiyuuki]

Did you know...if you type in "Israel and Palestinians" in the Search option of the forum...there's 41 matches!!!

[DE_Six]

I think that this is a terrible way of setting priorities. If you want to really help people, do you want to go after regimes that butcher hundreds of thousands, or regimes that inconvenience hundreds of thousands in response to daily terrorist attack? I know what I would set at priority #1.

Do you really believe that abolishing checkpoints (that are checking for terrorists, because there have been roughly one attempted terror attack per day for the past three years straight) is MORE important than ending genocides and massacres in other countries, just because it's military dictators who are digging the mass graves? If so, you and I see the world in a very different way.

It's not a matter of priorities. It is a matter of capability. There is a possibility of solution in the Middle East with the help of the international community and/or the intervention or lobbying of individual states. Of course, it seems to me also that stopping a genocide is higher up on the priority list than stopping the occupation of a few cities. But to achieve anything, starting off realist bases is essential. If not, then why is no country standing up to the genocide underway in Chechnya? Probably because it is not the least bit realist to figure anybody will stand up to what Russia does, on its home turf to boot, for it is still a player that wields some significant power on the "grand chessboard". We can't stop them, too bad, while this time we can put an end to the less bloody, yet upsetting conflict in Israel/Palestine. The same issue was raised before the war in Iraq. Why Saddam and not Kim Jong Il? Because we have the possibility the boot Saddam now. Tomorrow, maybe Kim Jong Il will go, or the Ayatollahs, but in the meantime, one dictator down is still a dictator down. That is the main reason that justified this war to me, much more than the threat to the US or some links to Al-Qaeda. It's the same with the Israelo-Palestinian conflict. We can't stop every unjust crisis in the world, but we can stop this one. It's a beginning.

As for the check points, I'm not intimately familiar with their efficiency. All I know is that they've been in place for a while and there are still terrorist attacks. Less, maybe, but when innocents die, does it really matter how many, within reasonable extents? How many lives where saved by a system that contributes to create more sources of danger for these same innocent lives? I did not point out the checkpoint system in particular as the key to the crisis, I merely pointed it as one of many sources of frustration among the Palestinians.

It's probable that we have different views. That's free thinking and free speech. Ain't it beautiful? woot

This is a debate of opinion on a given matter, nothing more. I'm not here to convince anyone, just exchange.

[Vance]

NUKE 'EM ALL!!!!


To be fair, Bush hasn't nuked anyone yet...

[StarvingStudent47]

As for the check points, I'm not intimately familiar with their efficiency. All I know is that they've been in place for a while and there are still terrorist attacks. Less, maybe, but when innocents die, does it really matter how many, within reasonable extents? How many lives where saved by a system that contributes to create more sources of danger for these same innocent lives? I did not point out the checkpoint system in particular as the key to the crisis, I merely pointed it as one of many sources of frustration among the Palestinians.


Everything I've read suggests that for every terrorist attack that gets through, between 10 and 15 are foiled. Largely at checkpoints. If Israel just abandoned the checkpoints, and Hamas decided not to stop attacking (and since their charter demands the complete dissolution of Israel, I think they would continue attacking), Israel could expect 3000-5000 civilians killed in terror attacks in the next 12 months.

That's a 9/11 every year, for a country with the same population size as New York City.

Checkpoints work. I'm sure they're frustrating and embarassing, but they save thousands of innocent lives a year. You still see terrorist attacks, not because checkpoints are ineffective, but because Palestinians send so darned many terrorists to start with that the 8% that get through do a lot of damage.

[Seiyuuki]

"No amount of defense can deter a lone determine gunman."

Someone wise said that.