2nd Lebanon-Israel War - Battle of Ayta ash-Shab

[joash]

In the Battle of Ayta ash-Shab, IDF paratroopers took cover in houses and then Hezbollah pounded the houses with anti-tank missiles. How could the Israelis have played this differently, since they probably couldn't identify the source of the fire?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab

[deathil93]

I remmber seeing a documentary about this in Hebrew. Alot could have been done differently not only in this particular event, by in the entire war. I just hope that if the moment comes when we'll have to do the same thing, it won't end as a tragedy.

[joash]

If you find that documentary online, post a link. I'd like to see it. I don't know the specifics battle by battle, but my view is that part of the problem was indecision. They sat around sending in small units when they should have made a more aggressive push like they did only at the very end.

[FkDahl]

Two questions:
Why are all the IDF killed NCOs or officers? Do the units involved not have any privates?


St.-Sgt. Alexei Kushnirski, 21, of Nes Ziona[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
St.-Sgt. Yaniv Bar-on, 20, of Maccabim[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Sgt. Gadi Mosayev, 20, of Akko[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Sgt. Shlomi Yirmiyahu, 20, of Rishon Lezion[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Sgt. Nimrod Cohen, 19, of Mitzpe Shalem[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)

Aug 1, 2006


Lt. Ilan Gabai, 21, of Kiryat Tivon[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
St.-Sgt. Yonatan Einhorn (Paratroopers), 22, of Moshav Gimzo[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
St.-Sgt. Michael Levin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Levin_%28soldier%29), 21, of Jerusalem[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)

Aug 2, 2006


Sgt. Adi Cohen, 18, of Hadera[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)

Aug 5, 2006


Cpl.(res.) Kiril Kashdan (Carmeli brigade), 26, of Haifa[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)

Aug 7, 2006


St.-Sgt. Philip Mosko, 21 (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)

Aug 9, 2006


Capt.(res.) Gilad Stukelman, 26, of Moshav Timrat[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Noam Goldman, 27, of Tel Aviv[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Nir Cohen, 22, of Maccabim[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Ben (Binyamin) Sela, 24, of Koranit[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Maj.(res.) Natan Yahav, 36, of Kiryat Ono (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Capt.(res.) Yoni (Leon) Shmucher, 30, of Bet Nehemiah (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Asher Reuven Novik, 36, of Kanaf (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
St.-Sgt. Adi Salim, 22, of Beit Hashmonai (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Elad Dan, 25, of Kibbutz Eilot (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Gilad Zussman, 26, of Eli (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Idan Kobi, 26, of Eilat (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Naor Kalo, 25, of Kibbutz Maagan Michael (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Nimrod Segev, 28, of Ramat Gan (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)

13 Aug, 2006


Lt.(res.) Eliel Ben-Yehuda (Carmeli brigade), 24, of Kfar Tavor[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Seven-49)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Guy Hasson (Carmeli brigade), 24, of Moshav Na'ama[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Seven-49)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Yaniv Shainbrum (Carmeli brigade), 24, of Mei Ami[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Elad Shlomo Ram (Carmeli brigade), 31, of Haifa

2. Extraction of wounded seem to have been by stretcher. Are there any armored vehicles in the IDF inventory that are agile enough to manage the terrain there?

[GB_FXST]

Two questions:
Why are all the IDF killed NCOs or officers? Do the units involved not have any privates?

St.-Sgt. Alexei Kushnirski, 21, of Nes Ziona[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
St.-Sgt. Yaniv Bar-on, 20, of Maccabim[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Sgt. Gadi Mosayev, 20, of Akko[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Sgt. Shlomi Yirmiyahu, 20, of Rishon Lezion[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Sgt. Nimrod Cohen, 19, of Mitzpe Shalem[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Aug 1, 2006

Lt. Ilan Gabai, 21, of Kiryat Tivon[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
St.-Sgt. Yonatan Einhorn (Paratroopers), 22, of Moshav Gimzo[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
St.-Sgt. Michael Levin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Levin_(soldier)), 21, of Jerusalem[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Aug 2, 2006

Sgt. Adi Cohen, 18, of Hadera[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Aug 5, 2006

Cpl.(res.) Kiril Kashdan (Carmeli brigade), 26, of Haifa[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
Aug 7, 2006

St.-Sgt. Philip Mosko, 21 (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)
Aug 9, 2006

Capt.(res.) Gilad Stukelman, 26, of Moshav Timrat[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Noam Goldman, 27, of Tel Aviv[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Nir Cohen, 22, of Maccabim[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Ben (Binyamin) Sela, 24, of Koranit[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Maj.(res.) Natan Yahav, 36, of Kiryat Ono (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Capt.(res.) Yoni (Leon) Shmucher, 30, of Bet Nehemiah (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Asher Reuven Novik, 36, of Kanaf (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
St.-Sgt. Adi Salim, 22, of Beit Hashmonai (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Elad Dan, 25, of Kibbutz Eilot (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Gilad Zussman, 26, of Eli (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Idan Kobi, 26, of Eilat (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Naor Kalo, 25, of Kibbutz Maagan Michael (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Nimrod Segev, 28, of Ramat Gan (killed in Dibil)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-JPost-76)
13 Aug, 2006

Lt.(res.) Eliel Ben-Yehuda (Carmeli brigade), 24, of Kfar Tavor[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Seven-49)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Guy Hasson (Carmeli brigade), 24, of Moshav Na'ama[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Seven-49)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Yaniv Shainbrum (Carmeli brigade), 24, of Mei Ami[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-MFA-74)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayta_ash-Shab#cite_note-Carmeli2-75)
St.-Sgt.(res.) Elad Shlomo Ram (Carmeli brigade), 31, of Haifa
... snip ...


This should answer your question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_ranks

Back in my day, non commissioned officer course was part of the regular series of steps. Although, I am not sure that is still the same today or if it applied/applies to all units.

Interesting to note: Michael Levin was a US Citizen.

[FkDahl]

This should answer your question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_ranks

Back in my day, non commissioned officer course was part of the regular series of steps. Although, I am not sure that is still the same today or if it applied/applies to all units.

Interesting to note: Michael Levin was a US Citizen.

Thanks: did I understand that if a unit's privates all serve enough time, they all become sergeants?

[tanks_alot]

Thanks: did I understand that if a unit's privates all serve enough time, they all become sergeants?

Yes, but the reason all of the fallen are Sergeants, at the very least, is because they were promoted posthumously, as is the costume in the IDF.

[JGXL836]

Thanks: did I understand that if a unit's privates all serve enough time, they all become sergeants?

Yes.

And someone who didn't serve enough time (i.e didn't undergo enough training) has nothing to do in Lebanon.

[JGXL836]

Yes, but the reason all of the fallen are Sergeants, at the very least, is because they were promoted posthumously, as is the costume in the IDF.

Even without postmortem promotion, I wouldn't expect privates to be there. Maybe corporals.

[ZZEZ]

Generally soldiers are not privates unless they are still in boot camp/advanced training, once they are done with that they get corporal rank.

Regarding the Wikipedia article...that thing seems like it was written by a propagandist...are there any neutral articles on it?

[Flagg]

Interesting to note: Michael Levin was a US Citizen.

His parents were neighbours with my parents.....I remember him playing outside when he was a little kid as I did my daily running circuit.

[IDF_TANKER]

His parents were neighbours with my parents.....I remember him playing outside when he was a little kid as I did my daily running circuit.

Wow, it's a small world...

[poolboy]

i found this on ynet:

"The detailed inquiries undertaken by the IDF, some of which have not yet been publicized, present a much less encouraging picture. In reality, in almost any ground battle, the moment our troops encountered resistance, the force's progress stopped, commanders demanded assistance, and the fighting focused on evacuating casualties from the battlefield."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3425441,00.html

how true is this?

[JGXL836]

True. Until "Changing Direction 11".

[joash]

2. Extraction of wounded seem to have been by stretcher. Are there any armored vehicles in the IDF inventory that are agile enough to manage the terrain there?[/QUOTE]


IDF has plenty of nimble armored vehicles. Casualties were probably evacuated on foot because armored vehicles were being hit with missiles and the sources of fire had not been identified or neutralized. On foot they could probably evacuate them more stealthily.

[JGXL836]

2. Extraction of wounded seem to have been by stretcher. Are there any armored vehicles in the IDF inventory that are agile enough to manage the terrain there?

Тankbulances. Slightly modified Merkava tanks.

[fiorellabel]

One question: hovv Israelt heavy APC performed during the vvar?
Most comments seems to revolve around Merkava vs Kornet match.
I have seen much praises about those vehicles but I vvonder if their light armament vvas enought to gave support to troops against long range AT missiles.

[JGXL836]

One question: hovv Israelt heavy APC performed during the vvar?

Achzarit armor was good enough vs. RPG's.

[joash]

As far as armament, while having heavier weapons on an APC/IFV might be beneficial, in the Lebanon context it probably wouldn't have made much difference since the ATGMs were fired from well hidden positions in the hills, so most often IDF ground forces had no idea where they were being fired on from.

In terms of armor, Israel has the most heavily armored APC's in the world, like the Achzarit & Namer which are based on tanks. This is a result of dealing with large IEDs in Southern Lebanon & Gaza. Unfortunately they only have small numbers of these and most APCs are the thinly armored M113s, many with add on armor kits.

Unfortunately, the latest generation of multiple shaped charge warheads can defeat just about any armor. Russia advertises the RPG-32 bought by Jordan as being able to overcome even active armor systems like the Trophy system by firing a decoy projectile a fraction of a second before the actual missile to overwhelm the Trophy system.

[joash]

You frequently hear that the difficult terrain made the advance into Southern Lebanon next to impossible for the IDF in the 2nd Lebanon War. While of course there is difficult terrain there, wars have been fought all over the world in extremely forbidding terrain. Take a look at Afghanistan. I don't think this is a sufficient explanation, not to mention the fact that the IDF occupied Southern Lebanon for 18 years, so should have been very familiar with the terrain.

[fiorellabel]

As far as armament, while having heavier weapons on an APC/IFV might be beneficial, in the Lebanon context it probably wouldn't have made much difference since the ATGMs were fired from well hidden positions in the hills, so most often IDF ground forces had no idea where they were being fired on from.

In terms of armor, Israel has the most heavily armored APC's in the world, like the Achzarit & Namer which are based on tanks. This is a result of dealing with large IEDs in Southern Lebanon & Gaza. Unfortunately they only have small numbers of these and most APCs are the thinly armored M113s, many with add on armor kits.

Unfortunately, the latest generation of multiple shaped charge warheads can defeat just about any armor. Russia advertises the RPG-32 bought by Jordan as being able to overcome even active armor systems like the Trophy system by firing a decoy projectile a fraction of a second before the actual missile to overwhelm the Trophy system.
Thank you for your kind reply, so it was most modern (well, anything more than Sagger) ability of not being detected at launch to cause so much trouble to IDF troops, infantry and Tank alike.

[joash]

Even older missiles like the Sagger are effective against infantry & structures. It's the multiple warheads that penetrated armor.

[fiorellabel]

You frequently hear that the difficult terrain made the advance into Southern Lebanon next to impossible for the IDF in the 2nd Lebanon War. While of course there is difficult terrain there, wars have been fought all over the world in extremely forbidding terrain. Take a look at Afghanistan. I don't think this is a sufficient explanation, not to mention the fact that the IDF occupied Southern Lebanon for 18 years, so should have been very familiar with the terrain.
+1
Your comments are very precise, exhaustive and also honest as they doesn't put the blame on some "wunderwaffe" or other peculiar circumstances but gave us a real insight into the difficulties of conflict.
Thank you.