Great pic israeli's war plain's

[UoUo]

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/idf-af_f-15_mig-killers.jpg

[Mortimer]

indeed.....

[Herrmannek]

What are those white circle markings with red outside & black inside?
Kill counters?

[warchild1/27scout]

bring it on arabs! isreal wants some more land. right uouo. :lol:

[Vance]

A lesson in English -

''Plane'' is a man made aircraft, like the ones posted above. (This can also mean a geometric shape)

''Plain'' is a term used to say something is dull or boring. It can also mean a formation in the earh (I.E. - Texas is filled with flat plains.)

:P

[UoUo]

What are those white circle markings with red outside & black inside?
Kill counters?

yep.

[UoUo]

A lesson in English -

''Plane'' is a man made aircraft, like the ones posted above. (This can also mean a geometric shape)

''Plain'' is a term used to say something is dull or boring. It can also mean a formation in the earh (I.E. - Texas is filled with flat plains.)

:P

soory...i don't have good english....

[UoUo]

bring it on arabs! isreal wants some more land. right uouo. :lol:

nop...we do not wnat more land....

:D

[Helly]

What are those white circle markings with red outside & black inside?
Kill counters?

Like UoUo said, those are kill counters. Egyptian Air Force roundels.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/eafmirage5.jpg

Kinda weird seeing them in F-15 Eagles though. The last time Israel and Egypt engaged in a major war was back in '73 (Yom Kippur War). The IAF doesn't have F-15s then, only F-4 Phantoms. Even the USAF doesn't at the time. The USAF received its first F-15 in '74, and it wasn't until '76 before the first squadron of F-15s was delivered to the USAF. The IAF received its first batch of F-15s that same year (Oct. '76 to be exact), 3 years after the Yom Kippur war.

Maybe the IAF just uses the Egyptian Air Force roundel to denote all kills.

~Helly

[UoUo]

What are those white circle markings with red outside & black inside?
Kill counters?

Like UoUo said, those are kill counters. Egyptian Air Force roundels.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/eafmirage5.jpg

Kinda weird seeing them in F-15 Eagles though. The last time Israel and Egypt engaged in a major war was back in '73 (Yom Kippur War). The IAF doesn't have F-15s then, only F-4 Phantoms. Even the USAF doesn't at the time. The USAF received its first F-15 in '74, and it wasn't until '76 before the first squadron of F-15s was delivered to the USAF. The IAF received its first batch of F-15s that same year (Oct. '76 to be exact), 3 years after the Yom Kippur war.

Maybe the IAF just uses the Egyptian Air Force roundel to denote all kills.

~Henjie

you forgot about syria ?

[Helly]

you forgot about syria ?

Read my post again, carefully. I was referring to Egypt because those are Egyptian Air Force roundels being used as kill markings in them F-15s. I didn't say anything about IAF F-15s not being used against Syria, did I (which I know they did starting '79 onwards)?

Like I said: "Maybe the IAF just uses the Egyptian Air Force roundel to denote all kills." All kills including Syrian.

~Helly

[UoUo]

ops...soory :)

[Helly]

ops...soory :)

No problem man. :)

You're from Israel, right? The IAF's one hell of a fighting force, if I may say so. Bekaa Valley, June to July '82. ;)

~Helly

[UoUo]

ops...soory :)

No problem man. :)

You're from Israel, right? The IAF's one hell of a fighting force, if I may say so. Bekaa Valley, June to July '82. ;)

~Helly

yes..i am...

thank you...the 82 war...was 1 of the best war for the IAF.... :)

90:1

[DE_Six]

90-to-1 for the overall IAF maybe, but the most impressive is the F-15 Baz kill tally: 40 to none, all Syrians. The Eagle is one impressive air superiority fighter, even more so in expert hands.

From the official IAF website:

40 kills

To date, the IAF F-15s have shot down 40 planes, all of them Syrian. On June 27th 1979, Brig. Gen. (Res.) Moshe shot down a Syrian MiG-21 in Lebanese skies. This was the first time a MiG-21 had been shot down, anywhere in the world. On February 13th 1981 an IAF Baz used an air-to-air missile to shoot down a Syrian MiG-25. Again, this was a worldwide first.

The IAF is one of the few air forces to serve a spanking to USAF/USN crews on a regular basis during joint exercises. So far, only two such exercises' results have been published, and it's scary, considering the technological edge and quality of training the US pilots benefit from.

[lefador1]

you forgot about syria ?

Read my post again, carefully. I was referring to Egypt because those are Egyptian Air Force roundels being used as kill markings in them F-15s. I didn't say anything about IAF F-15s not being used against Syria, did I (which I know they did starting '79 onwards)?

Like I said: "Maybe the IAF just uses the Egyptian Air Force roundel to denote all kills." All kills including Syrian.

~Helly

Nope those are Syrian Air Force roundels, the Egyptian and Syrian colors are the same, the difference is that there are a couple of characters in the syrian roundels/national insignias.

Example:

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter3/gloster_meteor/meteor_f8_syria.jpg

[lefador1]

From the official IAF website:

40 kills

To date, the IAF F-15s have shot down 40 planes, all of them Syrian. On June 27th 1979, Brig. Gen. (Res.) Moshe shot down a Syrian MiG-21 in Lebanese skies. This was the first time a MiG-21 had been shot down, anywhere in the world.

No offense but that website is lying, the US navy may have something to say about those claims:


http://www.history.navy.mil/seairland/appene.htm



The IAF is one of the few air forces to serve a spanking to USAF/USN crews on a regular basis during joint exercises. So far, only two such exercises' results have been published, and it's scary, considering the technological edge and quality of training the US pilots benefit from.

Other airforces have shown their teeth during exercises like Red Flag. The problem is that the US sometimes is overly dependant on technological superiority rather than individual skill, which is both a good and a bad thing. Other countries do not have access to the same level of resources, therefore individual skills are just much more important. Hence during certain exercises some times US forces do a poor showing, but that was becasue the Americans were forced to fight without using their "system" in a somewhat level playing field.

[Helly]

you forgot about syria ?

Read my post again, carefully. I was referring to Egypt because those are Egyptian Air Force roundels being used as kill markings in them F-15s. I didn't say anything about IAF F-15s not being used against Syria, did I (which I know they did starting '79 onwards)?

Like I said: "Maybe the IAF just uses the Egyptian Air Force roundel to denote all kills." All kills including Syrian.

~Helly

Nope those are Syrian Air Force roundels, the Egyptian and Syrian colors are the same, the difference is that there are a couple of characters in the syrian roundels/national insignias.

Example:

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter3/gloster_meteor/meteor_f8_syria.jpg

Try downloading the photo and blow it up to 800% or so its original size. You'll see that those kill marks have none of the characters/markings present in Syrian Air Force roundels.

I agree that those kill marks most probably denote Syrian Air Force kills, but technically, those are Egyptian Air Force roundels. Maybe the IAF ground crews just got lazy painting all those kill marks. ;)

~Helly

[lefador1]

Here is a higher res version of the photo:

http://www.danshistory.com/images/f15_c%20baz%20(falcon)%20-%20israel_03.jpg

I do not see the syrian characters in the kill marks, but I agree that they must denote the syrian kills not egyptian. Both insignias are close enough I suppose.

This is a picture of the F-15i, I believe is the Israel version of the f-15E

http://www.danshistory.com/images/f15_i_ra'am_(thunder)-_israel_01.jpg

[S'13]

The best war for the IAF was the Six Day War with over 300 kills, most of the planes destroyed were destroyed while they were still on the ground. The outstanding performance of the IAF left the Arab air forces out of use. But you could say the Six Day War was good for the whole IDF in general.

[Helly]

Here is a higher res version of the photo:
This is a picture of the F-15i, I believe is the Israel version of the f-15E

http://www.danshistory.com/images/f15_i_ra'am_(thunder)-_israel_01.jpg

Yup, great plane. Some say it's even better than the F-15E Strike Eagle because of the modifications made by the IAF to improve on the USAF's F-15E specs. Lots of homegrown Israeli technology including an Elisra (http://www.elisra) EW suite, Elbit (http://www.elbit.co.il) DASH (http://www.elbit.co.il/helmet.htm) (Display & Sight Helmet) system (Elbit is apparently the chosen helmet-mounted display supplier for the USAF Joint Strike Fighter program), greater takeoff weight and longer range, etc.

Kinda shows you just how much of an ally the US regards the Israel. On the other hand, the Saudi version of the F-15E (the F-15S) is basically a downgraded (re: crippled) version. The F-15S is fitted with avionics from the F-15C/D specs. It's got the same APG-70 radar but it's been tweaked to be only as sensitive as the older APG-63 radar system. Computerized ground-mapping capability has been deleted altogether. Downgraded version of the LANTIRN system, older ECM systems, etc. etc. Poor RSAF. ;)

~Helly

[REMOV]

BTW - some story of Israeli F-15D

http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/f15wing.asp

F15 Wingless Landing
On May 1st. 1983, a dogfight training took place between two F-15D's and four A-4N Skyhawks over the skies of the Negev desert in Israel.

The F-15D (#957, nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks) was used for the training of a new pilot in the squadron. Here is the description of the event as described in "Pressure Suit": "

At some point I collided with one of the Skyhawks, at first I didn't realize it. I felt a big strike, and I thought we passed through the jet stream of one of the other aircraft. Before I could react, I saw the big fire ball created by the explosion of the Skyhawk.

The radio started to deliver calls saying that the Skyhawk pilot has ejected, and I understood that the fire ball was the Skyhawk, that exploded, and the pilot was ejected automatically. There was a tremendous fuel stream going out of the wing, and I understood it was badly damaged.

The aircraft flew without control in a strange spiral. I re-connected the electric control to the control surfaces, and slowly gained control of the aircraft until I was straight and level again. It was clear to me that I should eject. When I gained control I said :

"Hey, wait, don't eject yet!". No warning light was on and the navigation computer worked as usual; I just needed a warning light in my panel to indicate that I missed a wing..." The instructor ordered me to eject.

The wing is a fuel tank, and the fuel indicator showed 0.000 so I assumed that the jet stream sucked all the fuel out of the other tanks. However, I remembered that the valves operate only in one direction, so that I might have enough fuel to get to the nearest airfield and land. I worked like a machine, wasn't scared and didn't worry. All I knew was: as long as the sucker flies, I'm gonna stay inside. I started to decrease the airspeed, but at that point one wing was not enough.

So I went into a spin down and to the right. A second before I decided to eject, I pushed the throttle and lit the afterburner. I gained speed and thus got control of the aircraft again. Next thing I did was lowering the arresting hook.

A few seconds later I touched the runway at 260 knots, about twice the recommended speed, and called the tower to erect the emergency recovery net. The hook was torn away from the fuselage because of the high speed, but I managed to stop 10 meters before the net. I turned back to shake the hand of my instructor, who urged me to eject, and then I saw it for the first time - no wing

The IAF (Israeli Air Force) contacted McDonnell Douglas and asked for information about the possibility to land an F-15 with one wing . MD replied that this is aero-dynamically impossible, as confirmed by computer simulations... Then they received the photo.... After two months the same F-15 got a new wing and returned to action. This is what "Flight international, 8 June 1985" wrote about the incident:

"The most outstanding Eagle save was by a pilot from a foreign air force. During air combat training his two seater F-15 was involved in a mid-air collision with an A-4 Skyhawk. The A-4 crashed, and the Eagle lost its right wing from about 2ft. outboard. After some confusion between the instructor who said eject, and the student who outranked his instructor and said no, the F-15 was landed at its desert base. Touching down at 290 kt, the hook was dropped for an approach and engagement. This slowed the F-15 to 100 kt, when the hook weak link sheared, and the aircraft was then braked conventionally.

It is said that the student was later demoted for disobeying his instructor, then promoted for saving the aircraft. McDonnell Douglas attributes the saving of this aircraft to the amount of lift generated by the engine intake/body and "a hell of a good pilot".

http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing1.jpg
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing2.jpg

[He219]

I find it ironic that the first (http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.3.3.6.1.1.html) air victories scored by the Israeli Air Force (IAF also stands for Indian Air Force) were in Professor Willy Messerschmitt''s 109:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/scs40647/iaf/avias199.jpg


The first ten Messerschmitts (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/fighter1.htm) were purchased in April of 1948, and flown to Palestine - disassembled and packed - in a hired C-54 transport plane (Operation "Black 5"). The transport plane landed in Ekron Air Force Base, bringing with it a team of Czech technicians who assisted in assembling the Messerschmitts, and a number of Israeli pilots who had been training on the planes in Czechoslovakia.

http://www.mobilixnet.dk/~mob66665/miniaturer/f15i0014.jpgHi-Res (http://www.mobilixnet.dk/~mob66665/billeder/f15i0014.jpg)
http://www.mobilixnet.dk/~mob66665/billeder/f15i-19.jpg

The F-15I (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/f15i.html) is quite a nice fighter....

[REMOV]

I find it ironic that the first air victories scored by the Israeli Air Force (IAF also stands for Indian Air Force) were in Professor Willy Messerschmitt''s 109 Not exactly. It wasn't Bf 109 but Czech fighter Avia S.199. This plane was a Czech version of the Messerschmitt Bf 109G-14 manufactured at previously German-controlled factories from the Messerschmitt blueprints. The standard airframe was combined with the only available engine, the Jumo 211F (which had been used in the Heinkel 111 bomber), and so the result differed from the original German design by having a larger engine cowling. Unfortunately, the Jumo engine was heavier, less powerful, and turned massive paddle-bladed propeller. The Avia S.199 quickly became known as the worst Bf 109 variant to see service. It was nose-heavy, under-powered, and required full rudder deflection to correct excessive - and to some, dangerous - torque on takeoff. This plane got a nickname "mule".
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7934/mezek2c.jpg

[REMOV]

By the way - the first Israeli aircraft used in combat action was... a Polish light plane RWD-13 ;)


On December 17th 1947 the R.W.D became the first Israeli aircraft to fly combat action. Piloted by Pinhas Ben-Porat the aircraft left for a Jewish settlement in the Negev with a doctor on board to treat the wounded from an Arab attack against a Jewish convoy. Once on location they discovered that the wounded had already been evacuated and were about to return to Tel Aviv when they were informed of an ongoing attack against the nearby settlement of Nevatim (home to an IAF airbase a few decades later). The pilot then removed the two doors and installed a machine gun on board the aircraft, in a way that made sure bullets would not hit any part of the airframe. Leaving the doctor behind, the pilot and a gun operator then left for Nevatim. The R.W.D overflew the attacking Arabs, straffing and dropping hand grenades. The Arabs, totally unprepared for the sudden attack from the air, fled from the scene. Ben-Porat then landed at Nevatim and evacuated one of the wounded. The first combat action by an aircraft in the War of Independence had such an impact that the British, still in control of Palestine at the time, declared that any Jewish aircraft operating weapons would be shot down without warning.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/light2.htm

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/images/rwd13.jpg

[FallenAngel]

Gotta love that Israeli camo job :)

Although, aren't Israeli F-15Cs painted all grey?

[Helly]

Gotta love that Israeli camo job :)

Although, aren't Israeli F-15Cs painted all grey?

Yup. The role dictates the color of the camo.

F-15Cs are air-superiority fighters so the grayish color scheme is useful in high altitudes where it mostly stays. Backdropped against the blue sky, the F-15C's color scheme will blend in well.

The F-15I (like the F-15E) is used primarily for air-to-ground missions, and it's got great low-flying, terrain-following capabilities. The camo scheme will help it blend with the ground since it'll probably be flying at 200ft or so above ground on the way to the target to avoid radar detection. Enemy fighter pilots looking down will have a hard time picking it out since the camo scheme matches the color of the desert. Same case with USAF F-15Es, although those are painted in a really dark gray color. Probably works really well at night (the USAF loves to operate at night).

~Helly

[He219]

REMOV wrote:

Not exactly. It wasn't Bf 109 but Czech fighter Avia S.199

Did I say Bayrische Flugzeugwerk (Bf)? I referenced the Designer, Model, Series (http://www.bf109.com/foreign.html) and provided links with detailed information including production configurations and origin.

They (http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.3.3.6.1.1.html) scored the first 'Air' Victories.

on June 3rd 1948 that Mudi Alon, commander of the First Combat Squadron, shot down two Egyptian Dakota planes that had been on a bombing mission over Tel Aviv (against Sde Dov airfield and other targets). These were the first kills scored in the history of the IAF.


:hug:

http://www.iaf.org.il/english/images/about/gallery/visuals/large/f-15/8-5.jpg

The IAF Spitfires (http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.3.3.6.1.6.html) were sold to Burma in 1954. A number of planes, including the 'Black Spitfire', were left in Israel, at the initiative of Ezer Weizmann. Two are on display in IAF Museum at Hatzerim, and one of theses is still flightworthy; it is among the handful of Spitfires in the world that are still in flying condition.

[usa320]

Air forces are my specialty.

let me start by saying that those are definately Syrian roundels on the F-15's, which appear to be early-mid production models, probably A models, though upgraded by the IAF. The other Eagle, the one in the brown cammo, is the Israeli version of the F-15E, the F-15I. This was the version that was used to bomb the Iraqi nuclear plant at Osiraq in 1982. Its 2 seater and more advanced than the gray F-15A's in the first shot... Though the F-15I's radar is slighlty downgraded for export as compared to the F-15E, though i am fairly certain Israel has applied its own Avionics package.

Also, the first MiG-21 was not downed by the IAF in 1969, but was Downed by the USN in Vietnam years before that.

[usa320]

Also note that that incident with the loss of the wing, and the UNited airlines DC-10 crash in soiux city that was caused by loss of hydraulic control, has prompted NASA researchers to develop a simple computer code that flies the aircraft without using control surfaces at all, instead the airplane is manuevered by changing the thrust of each engine...

Not sure how far this technology has gotten, but seeing as fewer and fewer planes rely on hydraulic control and more and more utilize Fly-by-wire technology, the need for this isnt as huge as it was back when most planes were DC-10's, 727's and DC-9's that operated entirely on mechanical and hydraulic controls... Newer Boeings and Airbuses use electronic computer control to manipulate the control surfaces, making for a far smoother ride.

[Helly]

Air forces are my specialty.

let me start by saying that those are definately Syrian roundels on the F-15's, which appear to be early-mid production models, probably A models, though upgraded by the IAF. The other Eagle, the one in the brown cammo, is the Israeli version of the F-15E, the F-15I. This was the version that was used to bomb the Iraqi nuclear plant at Osiraq in 1982. Its 2 seater and more advanced than the gray F-15A's in the first shot... Though the F-15I's radar is slighlty downgraded for export as compared to the F-15E, though i am fairly certain Israel has applied its own Avionics package.

Hmm, what a specialist you are.

The F-15E was first delivered to the USAF in 1988. So you're saying that Israel already has its own version of the F-15E in 1982? 1982 is a long way from 1998 (the year the first F-15I entered service with the IAF).

The Iraqi nuclear reactor in Osirak was bombed by eight F-16s, not F-15s. The entire package consisted of eight F-15s for fighter cover/radar suppression (the Israelis were able to arm them with AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missiles) and eight F-16s to do the actual bombing (armed with Mk 84 2,000lb bombs). There are rumors that the Israelis used LGBs but consensus is that the Mk 84s were dropped "dumb".

As far as reports go, the F-15I's APG-70 radar has the same capabilities as that of USAF F-15Es. It's the Saudi F-15S that has the downgraded APG-70 radar.

~Helly

[Helly]

Also, the first MiG-21 was not downed by the IAF in 1969, but was Downed by the USN in Vietnam years before that.

You're partly right about this one though. The USAF, not the USN, got its first MiG-21 kill in April of 1966 (right after the North Vietnamese first deployed the MiG-21). Maj. Paul Gilmore was credited with the kill. His EWO was Lt. William Smith. Sidewinder shot.

~Helly

[usa320]

The Iraqi nuclear reactor in Osirak was bombed by eight F-16s, not F-15s. The entire package consisted of eight F-15s for fighter cover/radar suppression (the Israelis were able to arm them with AGM-45 Shrike anti-radiation missiles) and eight F-16s to do the actual bombing (armed with Mk 84 2,000lb bombs). There are rumors that the Israelis used LGBs but consensus is that the Mk 84s were dropped "dumb".


Yepper, your right, they were D model F-15's, not I as i earlier stated...

And F-15I's dont use the same Avionic package as E's, they use an Israeli radar/avionic package, i reckon the AGP-70 itself isnt wasnt as capable orginally, but the israelis have upgraded it to make it as capable, if not more capable. It now includes the DASH system, and if i remember correctly the AGM-142 Popeye AG missile, an Israeli developed Stand off TV guided missile.

And yes, the F-16's dropped Mk84's.

And im an aviation enthusiast...a look at my bookshelf and my history of internet sites would comfirm this. At one point i was taking flight training, but 3 lessons before my checkride...well...i stumbled upon a car payment and a small paycheck...so that kinda went down the tubes... Someday i plan on saving up again and getting my PPL though.

[Helly]

[quote]And F-15I's dont use the same Avionic package as E's, they use an Israeli radar/avionic package, i reckon the AGP-70 itself isnt wasnt as capable orginally, but the israelis have upgraded it to make it as capable, if not more capable. It now includes the DASH system, and if i remember correctly the AGM-142 Popeye AG missile, an Israeli developed Stand off TV guided missile.

The entire radar/avionics package is different (Israeli-made EW/ECM suite, etc.), but the APG-70 radar unit itself is essentially the same as that of the USAF F-15Es as far as capabilities are concerned. None of the Saudi downgrades (Saudi APG-70s don't have ground-mapping capabilities and are not as sensitive as "real" APG-70 radars).

The Israelis didn't skimp on the F-15I, and the US DoD allowed them to buy all the goodies that were denied to the Saudis. One prime example is the APG-70 radar. The F-15Is are also equipped with the Lockheed Martin LANTIRN navigation (AAQ-13) and targeting (AAQ-14) system (exactly the same as those of USAF F-15Es) while the Saudi F-15S are only equipped with the less capable Lockheed Martin Sharpshooter targeting system instead of the AAQ-14 pod.

~Helly

[Argyll]

I'm sure that the Syrian "Kills"on the F15A's,have the 2 Green stars inside the roundels,on the white parts,reason was to seperate the roundel,from the Egyptian one.
Several ME states have a similar Flag,like Egypt,Syria,and Iraq,the difference between these 3 ,are Green Stars within the white Band,and also for the Egyptians I think they have an Eagle or something too

[lefador1]

Not sure how far this technology has gotten, but seeing as fewer and fewer planes rely on hydraulic control and more and more utilize Fly-by-wire technology, the need for this isnt as huge as it was back when most planes were DC-10's, 727's and DC-9's that operated entirely on mechanical and hydraulic controls... Newer Boeings and Airbuses use electronic computer control to manipulate the control surfaces, making for a far smoother ride.

Planes still rely on mechanical and hydraulic controls, as that is what is used to move all control/lift surfaces on planes. Flight by wire does not mean that you use "electric" acutators to move those surfaces, it means that instead of having direct electric pulses from the "fight stick" to the actual pump/actuator that moves the airelons and other control surfaces, now you have a computer or black box sitting in between that gets your comands as inputs and generates the necessary correction/adjustment/translation of your command before sending it to the actual actuator and pump. Which is still operating under hydraulic pressure. This allows for more naturally unstable systems, if the pilot had to fly a machine like the F16 "bare" meaning no fly by wire he or she would have a hard time. Since the F16 is very unstable meaning the pilot would have to figure out how to make the F16 stay alift.. the fly by wire box makes the necessary translation and adjustments so that it translates the commands the pilot really wants into the commands the F16 flight dynamics understand to perform the requested operation.