The end of an era for Japan

[beNder]

Wherever you are in the world, you've probably used or coveted some Japanese product - a Honda four-wheeler; a Toyota Prius, a Sony, a Panasonic TV, a Nikon camera. Since the 1950s, Japan's exports have flooded the world and fueled an economic miracle at home, making that country one of the wealthiest in the world. Well, this week marks a turning point - one of the world's great export engines has run out of gas.
What in the world is going on?

For the first time in 31 years, Japan has recorded a trade deficit. In simple terms, that means Japan imported more than it exported last year. Now this is not that unusual for some rich countries: the U.S. has had a trade deficit since 1975, and yet we've grown. But the U.S. economy is not built on exports. Japan's economic rise on the other hand, has been almost entirely powered by exports.

So what has changed in Japan?

The Japanese government would like to blame one-off events: Last year's earthquake and tsunami crippled factories and shut down nuclear energy reactors. The offshoot of that was decreased economic output, plus they needed to import expensive oil from the Middle East. But natural disasters have only highlighted and accelerated existing trends in Japan: A decline in competitiveness and an ageing work force.

China and other East Asian countries can now produce cheaper products and in greater quantities. Add to that a rising Yen, and Japan's exporters have been at a disadvantage globally. Toyota's chief perhaps said it best last year: "It doesn't make sense to manufacture in Japan."

Then add to this Japan's demographics. Between 1990 and 2007, Japan's working population dropped from 86 to 83 million. At the same time, the number of Americans between the ages of 15 and 64 rose from 160 million to 200 million. In a global marketplace, this is a major handicap for Tokyo.

Between 2001 and 2010, Japan's economy grew at seven-tenths of one percent - less than half the pace of America's. It was also well behind Europe. Contrast that with growth per person - or GDP per capita - and Japan actually outperforms America and the Euro Zone.

Source (http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/29/zakaria-the-end-of-an-era-in-japan/?hpt=wo_r1)

[krnofdrg69]

Woah... I never knew the Japanese would ever reach a trade deficit. I hope things get better for them...

[The Kaiser Chief]

It is true, their population will fall by a third in the next 30ys or so. So these are quite grim perspectives for the overall welfare of the country. As for the trade deficit last year one has to take the Tsunami and the Fukushima effect into account, I think they will have a positive trade balance again very soon. You can´t substitute the high professionalism of the Japanese workforce, which the most productive of the world by the way, with some sweatshop labour, at least until you still have enough people in their working age over there.

[Nyusu]

Well its not only Tsunami to blame. They are getting behind in some points of industry, as they just dont seem to be able to compete with international competition for some points. Take Sony Ericsson for example. It was at its high in 2007 where it sold over 100 millions cell phones. But with release of Iphone and financial crisis it sales have drastically dropped to only 34 millions in 2011. It just wasnt making things that would be as attractive to buyer as they were back then, as they arent offering anything that would be special. With Sony buying Ericsson`s stake in Sony Ericsson and it becoming just Sony i hope that they would be able to turn around and sale more, but their new models that were presented till now dont look as promising as they could be. Same applies to other companies too. They lost their advantage. They are making good products, but Koreans are making good products now too, so Japan has lost its place. Demographics play a role too, but isnt the reason for problems right now. Its the reason why they would become problems in future if they dont change something.

[The Kaiser Chief]

Well its not only Tsunami to blame. They are getting behind in some points of industry, as they just dont seem to be able to compete with international competition for some points. Take Sony Ericsson for example. It was at its high in 2007 where it sold over 100 millions cell phones. But with release of Iphone and financial crisis it sales have drastically dropped to only 34 millions in 2011. It just wasnt making things that would be as attractive to buyer as they were back then, as they arent offering anything that would be special. With Sony buying Ericsson`s stake in Sony Ericsson and it becoming just Sony i hope that they would be able to turn around and sale more, but their new models that were presented till now dont look as promising as they could be. Same applies to other companies too. They lost their advantage. They are making good products, but Koreans are making good products now too, so Japan has lost its place. Demographics play a role too, but isnt the reason for problems right now. Its the reason why they would become problems in future if they dont change something.

That is just an example, but the core of the industry still has very good products such as Toyota, Toshiba, Denso etc. ...

[Nyusu]

That is just an example, but the core of the industry still has very good products such as Toyota, Toshiba, Denso etc. ...
They are doing good, but in many fields they arent the best anymore. They have big market share, but it does shrink.

[snowflakes]

It is true, their population will fall by a third in the next 30ys or so. So these are quite grim perspectives for the overall welfare of the country. As for the trade deficit last year one has to take the Tsunami and the Fukushima effect into account, I think they will have a positive trade balance again very soon. You can´t substitute the high professionalism of the Japanese workforce, which the most productive of the world by the way, with some sweatshop labour, at least until you still have enough people in their working age over there.

I don't know why people equate population fall with a decline of society. In my opinion there is approx. 4 billion too many of us on this globe. About 2 billion would be enough that the innovation and progress would march on and it would be much easier to keep things sustainable. Everyone could live quite comfortable with a resources that we actually have...

[BogT]

I think is also related to the change in the nature of the consumers products.
What used to be high tech products, requiring a good brand to ensure quality, are becoming simple and therefore more reliable. So the public is looking for the cheapest version (typically made in China), since it would provide an acceptable level of quality for the few years (months) until a new model appears. Just think cameras, phones, laptops, screens, printers, memory sticks, hard-disks... they're more like perishable consumer goods now.

They need to find a niche market, like the Swiss did with their watches, to ensure a good domestic manufacture industry. Otherwise, although the Japanese firms will live on, they will manufacture only in SE continental Asia.

[The Kaiser Chief]

I don't know why people equate population fall with a decline of society. In my opinion there is approx. 4 billion too many of us on this globe. About 2 billion would be enough that the innovation and progress would march on and it would be much easier to keep things sustainable. Everyone could live quite comfortable with a resources that we actually have...

Because if a population shrinks due to low birth levels it does not simply become fewer, but it becomes older as well. And an ageing society where 50% are older than 65ys certainly lacks the dynamism and creativity of a young and energetic society with with a median age of 25ys. On top you have the liabilities for the shrinking younger population to feed the growing proportion of elders. This leads to an overall decline in economic performance and welfare.

The 4bn surpluss population you are refering to are not living the industrialized nations but mostly in third world countries that cannot sustain such youth bulge themselves. Hence the emigration out of there to the industrializes countries in search of a better life or a life at all.

[The Kaiser Chief]

They are doing good, but in many fields they arent the best anymore. They have big market share, but it does shrink.

If it shrinks it is not because the Japanese are not productive of innovative, but because they missed the chance to collaborate more with non-Japanese companies. Take the automotive sector as an example where Japanese 1st tier suppliers work almost exclusively for Japanese OEMs whereas American or German suppliers have their customers across the globe. They need to become more international and they need to give higher positions in their companies also to non-Japanese in order to develop new relationships in their industries.

[Pankrat]

Depopulation is good for Japan. Japan is a small country with lots of mountains. Over 100 million people populating these islands is not sustainable for a long period of time.

[snowflakes]

Because if a population shrinks due to low birth levels it does not simply become fewer, but it becomes older as well. And an ageing society where 50% are older than 65ys certainly lacks the dynamism and creativity of a young and energetic society with with a median age of 25ys. On top you have the liabilities for the shrinking younger population to feed the growing proportion of elders. This leads to an overall decline in economic performance and welfare.

The 4bn surpluss population you are refering to are not living the industrialized nations but mostly in third world countries that cannot sustain such youth bulge themselves. Hence the emigration out of there to the industrializes countries in search of a better life or a life at all.

I do understand that and do agree somewhat with you, but it would be a transitional problem. The age pyramid would correct itself and everybody would have more resources at hand. Japan ha a population of 127 million and it's no where near to able support her population.

[Einhander]

Those "extra" 4bln are consumers. Consumers drive the show, not "artists".

[The Kaiser Chief]

I do understand that and do agree somewhat with you, but it would be a transitional problem. The age pyramid would correct itself and everybody would have more resources at hand. Japan ha a population of 127 million and it's no where near to able support her population.

In case the Japanese would start having more children than they do today it could work. The birthrate is currently at 1,38 while 2,1 per women it would mean that the population sustains itself. So basically as the population shrinks the Japanese government should find ways to encourage that, otherwise the whole things becomes a deadly spiral with less young people having less chidrean and so on. This would be the ultimate downturn. But the clock is already ticking...

[The Kaiser Chief]

Those "extra" 4bln are consumers. Consumers drive the show, not "artists".

If they have work and money - YES (like China for instance); if they have no money and no work - NO (like Mali, Niger etc.)

[Nyusu]

If it shrinks it is not because the Japanese are not productive of innovative, but because they missed the chance to collaborate more with non-Japanese companies. Take the automotive sector as an example where Japanese 1st tier suppliers work almost exclusively for Japanese OEMs whereas American or German suppliers have their customers across the globe. They need to become more international and they need to give higher positions in their companies also to non-Japanese in order to develop new relationships in their industries.

Well big part of its plays the fact that Japanese standards in many things are way too different from rest of the world. They practically have to develop 2 sorts of products for domestic and for foreign sale, while rest of the world can sell it products while doing only some minor changes for each market.

[The Kaiser Chief]

Well big part of its plays the fact that Japanese standards in many things are way too different from rest of the world. They practically have to develop 2 sorts of products for domestic and for foreign sale, while rest of the world can sell it products while doing only some minor changes for each market.

In contrast you have the Koreans who try to integrate better into the international business community by also hiring non-Koreans for their senior management, like LG for instance. But yeah, if they would get this done they might have a comeback before demography stabs them in the back in 2030.

[Alfacentori]

Interesting news.

I do however find it curious that population growth is always linked into economic growth arguments. If population growth is the key factor in economic prosperity then we as a world are truly stuffed. The simple reality that populations cannot increase forever seems to be lost on economists, this is a finite world and a new model is needed.


Alfa

[The Kaiser Chief]

Interesting news.

I do however find it curious that population growth is always linked into economic growth arguments. If population growth is the key factor in economic prosperity then we as a world are truly stuffed. The simple reality that populations cannot increase forever seems to be lost on economists, this is a finite world and a new model is needed.

Alfa


The alternative is increasing productivity and redistribution, since most people would not be needed anymore in the productive process or would simply be too old. But from where we are today that is still a bit of science fiction although technically not impossible. The question is more political one since this would mean state interference on every level. But at some point you would need to stabilize the falling population in order to avoid a demographic crisis. And yes, since this world and its resoucres are quite finite there must be some objective limits to growth, I agree with you.

[Eventine]

I don't think it shows anything beyond the effect of economic cycles. The Japanese aren't special - they're no more immune than the West. I figure a lot of this is the consequence of too many media outlets in the 70s and 80s being caught up in the Japanese buying frenzy that they started believing their own hype about Japanese exceptionalism. It's the same with China today, and maybe India tomorrow. Explosive economic growth is not sustainable, and export-based economies like those operated by East Asian countries will inevitably see downturns at some point.

[IconOfEvi]

I don't know why people equate population fall with a decline of society. In my opinion there is approx. 4 billion too many of us on this globe.

1 - if you don't, you don't understand humanity and history at all

2 - 4 billion gotta go, already! So why haven't you shot yourself yet? Oh wait, I get it..you're too important, right?




Interesting news.

I do however find it curious that population growth is always linked into economic growth arguments. If population growth is the key factor in economic prosperity then we as a world are truly stuffed. The simple reality that populations cannot increase forever seems to be lost on economists, this is a finite world and a new model is needed.


Just how 'finite' our world is is a matter that everyone who tries to predict it ends up getting wrong.

Technology and other factors grow. So what was only 10 acres of arable land suddenly becomes 100. Or a 1000.

It's not just one street.

And again, back to the same issue - if everything is so finite, what are YOU doing to allieviate the problem? Nothing

If humanity cannot grow and grow constantly, than why haven't you offed yourself yet?

[Ordie]

As it was said, Japan's niche may be focused on high quality, hand crafted products.

[snowflakes]

1 - if you don't, you don't understand humanity and history at all

2 - 4 billion gotta go, already! So why haven't you shot yourself yet? Oh wait, I get it..you're too important, right?


I think I have little bit better grasp of history and economics than you, judging by your post history. 2nd is little petty and childish but I let the ad hominem attack slip. You should know better since your person is attacked quite often by other posters.

Anyway back to my point. Your purposeful misinterpretation of my opinion that the world and people would be better off if we had 4 billion people less, doesn't mean that I would condone killing said people. You must have heard of population control since you have ancestral ties to India?

[Nyusu]

Such news dont help either:

U.S. fines Japanese auto parts suppliers $548 million

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120131x2.html

[Miecznik]

From my perspective world has been overpopulated for 1000 years. Did't stop us from growing and constantly increasing the limit of when world is overpopulated.
In year 1800 (europeans did't yet colonized "seriously" then) Africa was overpopulated. As tribes living there did't have enough place to hunt and ranch cattle.
Mayans,Aztecs when europeans showed up were overpopulated also. There was political and religious aspect of sacraficing thousands of people in their temples. Yet they did have people in abundance and they had to control amount of young males living in conquered cities.

World might be overpopulated "in current circunstances". Current circunstances limiting our growth are high prices of energy and bleak and unshure perpective for ecology(less so). If we would get cheap and abundance source of energy wich would't hurt ecology so much we could increase standart of living and overpopulation margin by quite much. I'm preety shure we will develop such energy source as energy is abundant in nature. Thorium reactors look promising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium


Problem of Japan and western world in general is that having children is that it is extremly punishing for parents in economical terms. It makes no sense to have children as bringing it up costs huge amounts of money. In Poland "avrage" cost to bring up one child is 200.000 złoty wich is about 60.000 dollars, while avrage wage is about 3000 złoty. In old times you prefered to have a child as it was relatively low cost investment and most of all - it was safe investment. Child was obliged to care for you when you were sick or poor.

Today if i had 200.000 złoty and wanted to invest it safely i would buy dollars for it, or gold.
From my understanding Japan has society fit for proper demography as its traditional and hierarchical. In such society having children is safe.
Yet what happens is that Japaneese old part of society has ****load of savings, yet they did't go toward having children but on bank accounts.
In today's world, if you get sick you dont need a child - you got Hospital. When you grow old - you got pension found. When injustice happens to you you don need to call on children - you got Judges and Police.

Our world needs children - but gains from it are socialized while costs are individualized.

[Mackie]

Just how 'finite' our world is is a matter that everyone who tries to predict it ends up getting wrong.

Technology and other factors grow. So what was only 10 acres of arable land suddenly becomes 100. Or a 1000.

It's not just one street.


Yeah, with gen food ****.
Our agri business is broken.

[Ambassador]

Guys, I think the common misconception about the Japanese economy is that it is mostly manufacturing based. In fact Japan's economy is even more service-based than the European average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition)
I wonder how well Japanese 'service' suits the needs of foreign consumers.

[Nyusu]

Guys, I think the common misconception about the Japanese economy is that it is mostly manufacturing based. In fact Japan's economy is even more service-based than the European average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition)
I wonder how well Japanese 'service' suits the needs of foreign consumers.

Well from this list you can see that same goes for EU as whole and Germany in particular. But one still considers industry in Germany being the most important part of economy, as without industry, there is no market for service.

[shinigami]

Panasonic headed for record $10 billion annual loss
By Tim Kelly and Yoko Kubota (http://blogs.*******.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=yoko.kubota&)

TOKYO | Fri Feb 3, 2012 1:37pm EST


(*******) - Japan's Panasonic Corp warned of a record annual $10.2 billion net loss, joining beleaguered rivals Sony and Sharp in a sea of red ink as they struggle to fix their broken TV businesses and show they have not lost their way.
Panasonic's forecast loss of 780 billion yen ($10.2 billion) for the year to March dwarfed expectations, and is almost all due to restructuring charges and writedowns for its Sanyo Electric unit.

Together, Panasonic, Sony and Sharp Corp expect to lose $17 billion this year, highlighting the savaging of Japan's electronics industry by foreign rivals led by South Korea's Samsung Electronics, weak demand and a strong yen.

http://www.*******.com/article/2012/02/03/us-panasonic-idUSTRE81206P20120203

[Ambassador]

^What does it foretell for the Korean and Japanese competitors that the Korean economy is still 40% dependent on the industry? The service sector seems hugely untapped.

[The Kaiser Chief]

^What does it foretell for the Korean and Japanese competitors that the Korean economy is still 40% dependent on the industry? The service sector seems hugely untapped.

The problem is the formal distinction between those two sectors and how they work together. High end manufacturing and engineering usually means that a lot of external services need to be procured, such as management consulting, sourcing out engineering and development, quality and productivity audits, strategy and restructuring, interim-management and staffing/executive search, yet all these services just exist to support the manufacturing sector to become more and more productive. I am working in consulting, but all our clients are manufacturing companies. Without them our jobs wouldn´t exist. Seeing that Japan is the worlds most productive economy I guess that a large chunk of those services is dedicated to its industry.

[Pitchup]

i doubt..(whispering) Japan STRONG!11

[Nyusu]

End of Era would be if this comes true:

People's New Party leader Shizuka Kamei, Sunrise Party of Japan leader Takeo Hiranuma and Tokyo Gov. Shintaro Ishihara have agreed to launch a new political party in March, political sources said Friday.

Confirming the agreement at their meeting Wednesday night, they are working out a platform for the new party and plan to coordinate with other political parties on candidates for the next House of Representatives election, the sources said.

"I'll cooperate as much as possible" to create a new party, Ishihara said at a press conference Friday, keeping mum about whether he will become its leader.
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20120127p2g00m0dm152000c.html
I don't know much about Japanese politics, but I know that Ishihara doesn't stand for progress.

[Kaaskop]

The era ended already in 1995:

http://i44.tinypic.com/x5xylx.png
(Proportion of world nominal GDP for the countries with the top 10 highest nominal GDP in 2010)

[shinigami]

End of Era would be if this comes true:

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20120127p2g00m0dm152000c.html
I don't know much about Japanese politics, but I know that Ishihara doesn't stand for progress.

Ishihara really is not no future, he is an ultra-nationalist right,
advocates militarism, nuclear weapons, may be the return of the beginning of the return of the season after the first world war.

[shinigami]

The era ended already in 1995:

http://i44.tinypic.com/x5xylx.png
(Proportion of world nominal GDP for the countries with the top 10 highest nominal GDP in 2010)

Everything is connected with the appreciation of the yen, the Japanese economy can not adapt to a strong currency, companies are forcing the production to protect local jobs, but production costs are very high compared to that offered by other countries.
If the yen back to at least 120 = US$ 1 returns the Japanese economy to grow at least 3% per year.
In 1995 the yen against the dollar hit record, the same thing is happening today, and this shows that the future is not good, the measure that the Usa grow again believe that the Japanese will force a devaluation of at least 100 yen = US$ 1.

[Nyusu]

Sales tax may be raised higher than 10% due to welfare reforms: Noda
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120205a6.html

Ozawa to oppose Noda's bills to hike sales tax
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120205a2.html

I didnt know that Japan has such low sales tax(5%). And what welfare reform are they making?

[Fallap]

Japan could try to devalue the Yen, to make it cheaper for foreign nations to import.

I need to buy more japanese stuff now.

[shinigami]

Sales tax may be raised higher than 10% due to welfare reforms: Noda
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120205a6.html

Ozawa to oppose Noda's bills to hike sales tax
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120205a2.html

I didnt know that Japan has such low sales tax(5%). And what welfare reform are they making?


The reform and the foresight that today are divided into three.
1 and an accumulated savings that can not be stirred and not used.
2 and for civil servants.
3 and the private sector.
The government wants to reform in order to use resources from the savings that this can not be used, this saving was created to be used in the future but why not have a goal set to be used can not be spent on theory and is spending the government has to restore the amount spent by the current law.
They want to end up with 1 to pump money into the 2 and 3.

In fact the Japanese government beyond this reform would have to increase to 15% single tax in order to begin to reduce the public debt.

[Kaaskop]

Everything is connected with the appreciation of the yen, the Japanese economy can not adapt to a strong currency, companies are forcing the production to protect local jobs, but production costs are very high compared to that offered by other countries.
If the yen back to at least 120 = US$ 1 returns the Japanese economy to grow at least 3% per year.
In 1995 the yen against the dollar hit record, the same thing is happening today, and this shows that the future is not good, the measure that the Usa grow again believe that the Japanese will force a devaluation of at least 100 yen = US$ 1.

Yes, depreciation will stimulate the Japanese economy. However, it won't solve structural problems like the aging population and the high public debt. In my opinion, the Japanese government is quite passive and doesn't seem to acknowledge the structural problems Japan faces. For example, if the current birth rates don't improve, the Japanese workforce might decrease up to 20% the coming 20 years. Yet, Japan remains a closed nation for immigrants.

As a bachelor student in economics I find it very interesting to explore the rise and stagnation of the Japanese economy. It's a very interesting and unique nation, not just from an economic view. I'm also particularly interested in how the Japanese government will cope with the problems regarding the aging population, as The Netherlands will experience the same problem in the future (albeit far less severe).

By the way, are you Japanese or just an anime fan? Referring to your nickname p-)

[Stryder Kennset]

It is true, their population will fall by a third in the next 30ys or so. So these are quite grim perspectives for the overall welfare of the country. As for the trade deficit last year one has to take the Tsunami and the Fukushima effect into account, I think they will have a positive trade balance again very soon. You can´t substitute the high professionalism of the Japanese workforce, which the most productive of the world by the way, with some sweatshop labour, at least until you still have enough people in their working age over there.

But the thing with that is, once the earthquake and fukushima is over, what's next. It's like the illness will not go away here. The earthquake and tsunami just made thing worse. But once that is gone, as the article say, without TRUE reform, Japan won't recover. They haven't truly recovered since the Asian fianiancial crisis of 95.....Now, with an ageing workforce and Zaibatsus STILL running wild, it's bound to get worse unless they bite the bullet and reform...But if I know Asian countries, they won't momentum and cultural imprint die hard, especailly in a conservative country like Japan.

[Stryder Kennset]

I posted this on another site and got lambasted because everyone think Japan is still ok. But as the article says, it is not. This is from the Newsweek article called "Why can't Japan invent the MP3 and iPod"



As for Japan, if you read that Newsweek article, you will realize they did not talk about anything about the Japanese people, but rather, it's the culture and system that limits what they can do. It's the Japanese who invented the phrase, "It's the nail that stands out who gets hammered back down". What does that mean? That just mean in the Japanese work culture, your work, your results gets evenly divided as a part of the team. You team members shares everything. You can't "Stand Up" too proudly, especially against authority or your team's head. i.e. If you upset the apple cart too much, you get nailed up the wall. It's not to say that Japanese company can't be innovative or can invent things. They CAN, just looking at the Walkman and Discman you will get the idea, Toyota and Honda keep on kicking the "Big Three" ass is another. But the thing is, look deep down inside it, Disman/Walkman is just an evolutionary concept based on the casset player and CD player, except miniturized. As the Newsweek article said, when the road ends (like it did with hardware media), and a seriously new idea is needed, that's when the Japanese gets stuck in a rut cause their system, culture, and work ethics just doesn't allow it (again, do not upset the apple cart too much or else it is you who gets it!)

So, when hardware media reached its end, and new idea was needed. It took Apple and the MP3, a DIGITAL media to hit Japanese upside the face and took them by surprise cause they keep on focused on "what can we still do with CD's?....Even today, many Japanese are still going, "Ok, Walkman, Japanese, DiscMan, Japanese....Then how the F did we have a CCCOOOMMMBBBOOO BRRREEAAAKKKKEEERRR with MP3/iPod, U.S.? Where did our ingenuity and inventiveness go?" Same with computer and high tech technologies. One time, Japanese leads the world in computer tech. These days, many Japanese lament the fact their computers may have a Japanese name (Toshiba, Sony, NEC), but the innards, 80% of it has origines in the U.S. (It maybe made in Japan, but the core tech is in the U.S., that means royalties for the U.S.). So again, they are asking themselves, what happened? Once we were the worldwide leaders, and now, we have to PAY others to use their stuff! What is going on?

And then there is the "Zaibatsu" situation....There is an old saying, and this is from Japan itself. "It isn't the government "Diet" that controls the economy, it's the Zaibatsu that controls EVERYTHING!" As you can imagine, that stiffles competition and thus, innovation....

I think I talked about this enough. AGain, even if you think Japanese is all that, one stark fact stands out, ever since the 1995 Asian Fianiancial crash, Japan has never recovered. Reason why? I think I covered on some of that. AGain, it's not that the JApanese people aren't smart or their companies can't invent things. But when you are limited by your own work culture and belif of "It's the nail who stands out that get hammered back down", then you are limiting yourself on what you can do. Even their most "innovative" stuff can be said as "logical progression on previous products". AGain, the only true innovators who can stand a problem on its head and come from the left field is Nintendo...."Ok, we keep on playing the power game, we loose, so yeah guys, I'm not playing anymore!" And toss in the Zaibatisu situation, and you just made the problem even worse. Many Japanese are already trying to change this situation, like Nissan did when they hired a "Gai-Jin" to resturcture their company. He came in and promptly laid a bunch of people off, which was unthinkable to the Japanese work culture where if you are hired, you are guaruanteed for life. In fact, it worked so well, that the "Goshen Effect" is now a case study. But old habits die hard, especially within an old Asian culture such as Japan.

[shinigami]

Yes, depreciation will stimulate the Japanese economy. However, it won't solve structural problems like the aging population and the high public debt. In my opinion, the Japanese government is quite passive and doesn't seem to acknowledge the structural problems Japan faces. For example, if the current birth rates don't improve, the Japanese workforce might decrease up to 20% the coming 20 years. Yet, Japan remains a closed nation for immigrants.

As a bachelor student in economics I find it very interesting to explore the rise and stagnation of the Japanese economy. It's a very interesting and unique nation, not just from an economic view. I'm also particularly interested in how the Japanese government will cope with the problems regarding the aging population, as The Netherlands will experience the same problem in the future (albeit far less severe).

By the way, are you Japanese or just an anime fan? Referring to your nickname p-)



I'm Japanese.
I agree with much you said, will not solve the problems especially with the birth rate.
I think at least able to maintain a rate of GROWTH of at least a 2/3% per year for a long period, the birth rate could give an improved.
I have only one daughter, would like to have more children but the high cost of living, I can not take the risk when the wages provided in the early years post 90 years to reduce the cost of living increases only.
Some of the biggest problems after the real estate bubble burst was that the yen has appreciated and the prices of goods is high manteram without any adjustment.
How can the prices of goods, food and services are virtually the same as 20 years ago, falling wages constant, and most raw materials are imported and the prices do not stop them from growing.
The prices of things paid by the company were inflated and inflated still being sucked in by the government to implement public debt, impoverishing the population to try to remove the excess of money in circulation and stabilize markets.
In my opinion, Japanese society does not make any more children because they do not want it and not natural tendency but because the parents do not offer the conditions to maintain a high standard of living that supports the creation of more children.
The biggest obstacle to open the labor market for foreigners in Japan, are the cultural differences, the foreigners are many distinguished in number and severity of crimes committed, but in fact most of these people were offenders are induced and controlled by the Japanese mafia, the Japanese society thinks that foreigners have a duty to not come into contact with organized crime because they had access to the labor market, when in fact to blame for many problems are forgotten by society.

[shinigami]

I posted this on another site and got lambasted because everyone think Japan is still ok. But as the article says, it is not. This is from the Newsweek article called "Why can't Japan invent the MP3 and iPod"



As for Japan, if you read that Newsweek article, you will realize they did not talk about anything about the Japanese people, but rather, it's the culture and system that limits what they can do. It's the Japanese who invented the phrase, "It's the nail that stands out who gets hammered back down". What does that mean? That just mean in the Japanese work culture, your work, your results gets evenly divided as a part of the team. You team members shares everything. You can't "Stand Up" too proudly, especially against authority or your team's head. i.e. If you upset the apple cart too much, you get nailed up the wall. It's not to say that Japanese company can't be innovative or can invent things. They CAN, just looking at the Walkman and Discman you will get the idea, Toyota and Honda keep on kicking the "Big Three" ass is another. But the thing is, look deep down inside it, Disman/Walkman is just an evolutionary concept based on the casset player and CD player, except miniturized. As the Newsweek article said, when the road ends (like it did with hardware media), and a seriously new idea is needed, that's when the Japanese gets stuck in a rut cause their system, culture, and work ethics just doesn't allow it (again, do not upset the apple cart too much or else it is you who gets it!)

So, when hardware media reached its end, and new idea was needed. It took Apple and the MP3, a DIGITAL media to hit Japanese upside the face and took them by surprise cause they keep on focused on "what can we still do with CD's?....Even today, many Japanese are still going, "Ok, Walkman, Japanese, DiscMan, Japanese....Then how the F did we have a CCCOOOMMMBBBOOO BRRREEAAAKKKKEEERRR with MP3/iPod, U.S.? Where did our ingenuity and inventiveness go?" Same with computer and high tech technologies. One time, Japanese leads the world in computer tech. These days, many Japanese lament the fact their computers may have a Japanese name (Toshiba, Sony, NEC), but the innards, 80% of it has origines in the U.S. (It maybe made in Japan, but the core tech is in the U.S., that means royalties for the U.S.). So again, they are asking themselves, what happened? Once we were the worldwide leaders, and now, we have to PAY others to use their stuff! What is going on?

And then there is the "Zaibatsu" situation....There is an old saying, and this is from Japan itself. "It isn't the government "Diet" that controls the economy, it's the Zaibatsu that controls EVERYTHING!" As you can imagine, that stiffles competition and thus, innovation....

I think I talked about this enough. AGain, even if you think Japanese is all that, one stark fact stands out, ever since the 1995 Asian Fianiancial crash, Japan has never recovered. Reason why? I think I covered on some of that. AGain, it's not that the JApanese people aren't smart or their companies can't invent things. But when you are limited by your own work culture and belif of "It's the nail who stands out that get hammered back down", then you are limiting yourself on what you can do. Even their most "innovative" stuff can be said as "logical progression on previous products". AGain, the only true innovators who can stand a problem on its head and come from the left field is Nintendo...."Ok, we keep on playing the power game, we loose, so yeah guys, I'm not playing anymore!" And toss in the Zaibatisu situation, and you just made the problem even worse. Many Japanese are already trying to change this situation, like Nissan did when they hired a "Gai-Jin" to resturcture their company. He came in and promptly laid a bunch of people off, which was unthinkable to the Japanese work culture where if you are hired, you are guaruanteed for life. In fact, it worked so well, that the "Goshen Effect" is now a case study. But old habits die hard, especially within an old Asian culture such as Japan.


Very good articles and I agree with everything.
Many South Korean companies are world leaders in innovation precisely because they know best leverage technologies that the Japanese developed the technology of the memory card was invented by Toshiba, but did not know what to do with it, the proposed use technology Samsung jointly and today are the largest producers of memory cards.
The Japanese companies do not want revolutions in if your system already passed, many young people went to study abroad as South Korea and came back with innovative ideas but the Japanese companies did not like the innovative ideas of young people very different from South Korea
Japanese companies started to give more value to students who have not been trained abroad, it was a great isolation in developing technologies for application in the market, most of the things developed in Japan are made exclusively for the Japanese market and not to become a global success.
The richest man in Japan is a descendant of the South Korean (Masayoshi Son), who studied at the Us and picked up a Japanese company almost bankrupt and now dominates the Japanese market communication.

[IanSolo]

Without talking about specifics but talking about 'macro' area, this is what is happening in all over the world ; since the falling of communism, here in Europe we saw the moving of industrial production from 'west Europe' countries to east ones since the beginning of the 90s.
Close to Japan there are many growing markets and economies, first of all China for the productions and India for developement investments, also Korea, Taiwan and so on manage a good part pf the production....China as told is nr 1 actually and IF they'll improve the quality of the materials and the quality/affidability of their products there will be no more game for all.

[IconOfEvi]

I'll expand on this perhaps later, but I think the demographic collapse is due to there being no more of a 'burning idea' - something that makes a nation's citizens want to keep striving.

Now its a matter of just passing through life. The Western (inc E Asia) birthrates will rise again I think when there is something, some idea that makes people "believe" again

[Einhander]

I'll expand on this perhaps later, but I think the demographic collapse is due to there being no more of a 'burning idea' - something that makes a nation's citizens want to keep striving.

Now its a matter of just passing through life. The Western (inc E Asia) birthrates will rise again I think when there is something, some idea that makes people "believe" again

That's actually a good post.

So there is hope.

[Stryder Kennset]

pppp
Without talking about specifics but talking about 'macro' area, this is what is happening in all over the world ; since the falling of communism, here in Europe we saw the moving of industrial production from 'west Europe' countries to east ones since the beginning of the 90s.
Close to Japan there are many growing markets and economies, first of all China for the productions and India for developement investments, also Korea, Taiwan and so on manage a good part pf the production....China as told is nr 1 actually and IF they'll improve the quality of the materials and the quality/affidability of their products there will be no more game for all.

I can tell you right off the bat that that aint gonna happen at all in China, like never. And before anyone flame me, UH-60 Blackhawks. Past thirty years China have been trying to copy it and no dice...There are plenty of example of this. and the second reasin, corruption here is up the wazoo and than some....Chinese always say, Government say pay out 100 to pay, fix, or produce something, if only $50 gets skimmed off by corrupt officials, then we should count ourself lucky! This is why China on surface looks powerful, but when you dig deeper, you will realize just anemic they truly are.

[IanSolo]

pppp

I can tell you right off the bat that that aint gonna happen at all in China, like never. And before anyone flame me, UH-60 Blackhawks. Past thirty years China have been trying to copy it and no dice...There are plenty of example of this. and the second reasin, corruption here is up the wazoo and than some....Chinese always say, Government say pay out 100 to pay, fix, or produce something, if only $50 gets skimmed off by corrupt officials, then we should count ourself lucky! This is why China on surface looks powerful, but when you dig deeper, you will realize just anemic they truly are.

Correct, I think that the only thing that can stop those uprising economies is themselves...like a society breakdown , you highlighted a point of that.

[Kaaskop]

I'm Japanese.
I agree with much you said, will not solve the problems especially with the birth rate.
I think at least able to maintain a rate of GROWTH of at least a 2/3% per year for a long period, the birth rate could give an improved.
I have only one daughter, would like to have more children but the high cost of living, I can not take the risk when the wages provided in the early years post 90 years to reduce the cost of living increases only.
Some of the biggest problems after the real estate bubble burst was that the yen has appreciated and the prices of goods is high manteram without any adjustment.
How can the prices of goods, food and services are virtually the same as 20 years ago, falling wages constant, and most raw materials are imported and the prices do not stop them from growing.
The prices of things paid by the company were inflated and inflated still being sucked in by the government to implement public debt, impoverishing the population to try to remove the ecesso of money in circulation and stabilize markets.
In my opinion, Japanese society does not make any more children because they do not want it and not natural tendency but because the parents do not offer the conditions to maintain a high standard of living that supports the creation of more children.
The biggest obstacle to open the labor market for foreigners in Japan, are the cultural differences, the foreigners are many distinguished in number and severity of crimes committed, but in fact most of these people were offenders are induced and controlled by the Japanese mafia, the Japanese society thinks that foreigners have a duty to not come into contact with organized crime because they had access to the labor market, when in fact to blame for many problems are forgotten by society.
I would love to visit Japan some day. I really think that we could learn a lot of things from you.

Yes, the economic situation somewhat influences the birth rates. That's also notable in other nations. However, I doubt that the low birth rates in Japan are only due to the stagnating Japanese economy. The birth rates have been dropping drastically since the late '60s. The first drops were probably caused by contraception, this effect took place in the entire industrialized world. However, the Japanese birth rates kept dropping since that moment. Even during the '70s and '80s when the Japanese economy experienced high growth rates and the already high standards of living were improving even more. Japan had the highest HDI (Human Development Index) in the world during the '90s. This trend is very different in Europe and the United States where the birth rates are more or less stable since the late '70s (although there are large regional differences). Could it be that the low birthrates are caused by cultural aspects? I have heard that the Japanese society tend to focus on making a career and that this influences the birth rates as well.

The appreciation of the Yen isn't the cause of high prices for imported (raw) materials. It's actually the contrary: appreciation of the Yen means that imported (raw) materials are relatively cheaper than before.

It could indeed cause some cultural frictions. Yet, I don't think Japan has an other choice. Immigration is the only way to improve the demographic situation on short term. An decreasing workforce and an increasing number of pensions will only worsen the economic problems in Japan.

[shinigami]

I would love to visit Japan some day. I really think that we could learn a lot of things from you.

Yes, the economic situation somewhat influences the birth rates. That's also notable in other nations. However, I doubt that the low birth rates in Japan are only due to the stagnating Japanese economy. The birth rates have been dropping drastically since the late '60s. The first drops were probably caused by contraception, this effect took place in the entire industrialized world. However, the Japanese birth rates kept dropping since that moment. Even during the '70s and '80s when the Japanese economy experienced high growth rates and the already high standards of living were improving even more. Japan had the highest HDI (Human Development Index) in the world during the '90s. This trend is very different in Europe and the United States where the birth rates are more or less stable since the late '70s (although there are large regional differences). Could it be that the low birthrates are caused by cultural aspects? I have heard that the Japanese society tend to focus on making a career and that this influences the birth rates as well.

The appreciation of the Yen isn't the cause of high prices for imported (raw) materials. It's actually the contrary: appreciation of the Yen means that imported (raw) materials are relatively cheaper than before.

It could indeed cause some cultural frictions. Yet, I don't think Japan has an other choice. Immigration is the only way to improve the demographic situation on short term. An decreasing workforce and an increasing number of pensions will only worsen the economic problems in Japan.


On the population, come down since the 60's, I agree with everything in the 60s it was common for families to create more than five children, the rate has been decreasing over the years but at least the same patterns exist in the early 90 any Japanese still have the ability to create 2/3 children and not one like today.
The fall would be smoother and more stable.

On the strength of the yen, but this is the point whether the imported products become cheaper (raw material) the products offered to the local society should have adjusted the prices down.
But as this did not happen, and prices remained without any adjustment virtually the same before the crisis, large companies slowly sucked the excess money in circulation of the population and funded the public debt of the government.
Therefore today's economy does not get out of deflation in my opinion.

(((Let me give a simple example, in 1990 a can of soda cost 100 yen, most raw materials are imported, the yen has appreciated the price of the refrigerant should lower the costs of raw materials also fell, but this did not happen in after 15 years the price of soda has not changed and only recently was raised to 120 yen, some are still being sold for 100 yen.
The yen returned to value and price of a soda does not go up and not down .... when a manufactured product 100% abroad enters the Japanese market there is a readjustment of prices, but when it is industrialized in Japan using 100% imported raw material prices of the products has no significant adjustments...
In the same period a person who earns up to 30,000 yen per day went on to win 10,000)))



I also agree that it can help a lot if the Japanese government opened the labor market there is discussion among the politicians on this issue, if the market continues to close more closed or the tendency to be only worse.

[IanSolo]

@ Shinigami, suimasen demo....I feel you point a great responsability to the growing rate of the population isn't it? This is what I ear also in my country but let me say that counting on populationg increase makes the problem return on each generation, we say 'the dog that bites his own tail'.
Japan has a surface a 'little more' bigger than Italy but Japanese are more than 2 times Italian population...if you open the gates to immigration there will be no more space p-)

[shinigami]

@ Shinigami, suimasen demo....I feel you point a great responsability to the growing rate of the population isn't it? This is what I ear also in my country but let me say that counting on populationg increase makes the problem return on each generation, we say 'the dog that bites his own tail'.
Japan has a surface a 'little more' bigger than Italy but Japanese are more than 2 times Italian population...if you open the gates to immigration there will be no more space p-)


Japanese homes after the period of the war have always been small compared to the western standards.
a house that would be standard for any American in Japan is considered only for rich houses.
Even Japan is small most of its territory is covered with plantations of trees, the Japanese cities are crowded, but many in distant cities where there is a concentration of small and large factories, there is already some cities in Shizuoka that most people Brazilians are.
Most young Japanese today do not want to work in factories and not in the field but migrate to urban centers.
Several small Japanese cities should disappear in the next decades.

[Kaaskop]

@ Shinigami, suimasen demo....I feel you point a great responsability to the growing rate of the population isn't it? This is what I ear also in my country but let me say that counting on populationg increase makes the problem return on each generation, we say 'the dog that bites his own tail'.
Japan has a surface a 'little more' bigger than Italy but Japanese are more than 2 times Italian population...if you open the gates to immigration there will be no more space p-)

The problem is that a declining workforce has to support an increasing number off pensions. This will be more or less impossible. Besides, Japan has already a shortage of labor.

Thanks for the discussion, shinigami. Unfortunately I don't have the time to write a decent respond at the moment.

[Stryder Kennset]

Correct, I think that the only thing that can stop those uprising economies is themselves...like a society breakdown , you highlighted a point of that.

Yeah, China is at the cusp of that. Despite GDP being num. 2 right now, I STILL peg China's economy as a whole down below around 20th place or so, WAAAYYY behind Japan's. The problem, as the start of a MSNBC article states: "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 German company that the world depends on" Easy: Mercedes, BMW, Krupp, Thyssen-Henschel, MBB, Semens etc. "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 Japanese company that the world depends on!" Again, easy peasy: Sony, Panasonic/Masush!ta, Toshiba, Toyota, Honda, NEC etc. "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 U.S. company that the world depends on!" Even easier! MS, Intel, ORacle, nVidia, Coca-Cola, Lockheed-Martin, GE, Boeing, Raytheon, Cisco, Pratt&Whitney, IBM, Motorolla, DARPA (not a company, but so many stuff, like the intertubes, comes from here), and the biggest high tech scat cat in the room right now, Apple. Now, quick, 3 seconds, name a famous Chinese company that the world depend on! oohhhhh...ummm...yeah....ummm...Ohh SH!T!!!

And that's the whole entire problem with the Chinese economy, it is totally build on "Quantity", ie, lots of empty houses that are never occupied, the world greatest and largest mall that's totally empty, or the road in front of where I currently live, dig up, fill in, dig up, fill in, dig up fill in, dig up...you get the picture. There is no quality, ie, no product or license that if someone else want to use, I collect royalty. i.e. no service based, no world wide company, no international presence no nada. This is why the Chinese government is such an acornhole when it comes to RMB value vs the dollar. They KNOW full well if the RMB is allowed to rise to say 4RMB to 1 dollar, then every company who's in China for its cheap labor will leave and with no back up, Chinese economy gonna go south in a hurry and make Japan look like child's play

[EdisonTrent]

Yeah, China is at the cusp of that. Despite GDP being num. 2 right now, I STILL peg China's economy as a whole down below around 20th place or so, WAAAYYY behind Japan's. The problem, as the start of a MSNBC article states: "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 German company that the world depends on" Easy: Mercedes, BMW, Krupp, Thyssen-Henschel, MBB, Semens etc. "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 Japanese company that the world depends on!" Again, easy peasy: Sony, Panasonic/Masush!ta, Toshiba, Toyota, Honda, NEC etc. "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 U.S. company that the world depends on!" Even easier! MS, Intel, ORacle, nVidia, Coca-Cola, Lockheed-Martin, GE, Boeing, Raytheon, Cisco, Pratt&Whitney, IBM, Motorolla, DARPA (not a company, but so many stuff, like the intertubes, comes from here), and the biggest high tech scat cat in the room right now, Apple. Now, quick, 3 seconds, name a famous Chinese company that the world depend on! oohhhhh...ummm...yeah....ummm...Ohh SH!T!!!

And that's the whole entire problem with the Chinese economy, it is totally build on "Quantity", ie, lots of empty houses that are never occupied, the world greatest and largest mall that's totally empty, or the road in front of where I currently live, dig up, fill in, dig up, fill in, dig up fill in, dig up...you get the picture. There is no quality, ie, no product or license that if someone else want to use, I collect royalty. i.e. no service based, no world wide company, no international presence no nada. This is why the Chinese government is such an acornhole when it comes to RMB value vs the dollar. They KNOW full well if the RMB is allowed to rise to say 4RMB to 1 dollar, then every company who's in China for its cheap labor will leave and with no back up, Chinese economy gonna go south in a hurry and make Japan look like child's play
I thought Foxcon but it is Taiwanese:lol:

[Stryder Kennset]

Also, read this from MSNBC 4 years ago, it stated, how can I be gentle and not get banned....Another reason the Japanese population is falling is because of its *** industry. i.e. so many men now are into....ummm....lightly here, stuff, that they have lost interests in the oppsite *** a long time ago. They are not gay mind you, just that.....the Japanese **** stuff is so advanced, anything and everything that anyone crave for, gets satisfied. As one Japanese man said, "Why would I find a girl and get married? They are Bistchy, take money to pamper, throw tantrums, and besides, my "Cravings" is such, no girl will ever satisfy me!" I don't wanna talk too much on this anymore simply because of the subject, but could the Japanese really, how do you say this, "advanced" **** industry have a doing in this also?

[Stryder Kennset]

This is because I think, like China, Japan is mostly moutainous and barren. In term of USABLE land to the population, Japan is some of the most dense in term of population density in the world, placing 3 or 4th in the world I think. And as you say, with the movement to the cities, the crush of population will become even worse. I heard that one time (don't know if true anymore) that if you want to own a car, you have to prove you have a place to park it first. Such is the "tight" nature of Japan.

[Ambassador]

I thought Foxcon but it is Taiwanese:lol:

China is one big company. :grin:

[Nyusu]

Also, read this from MSNBC 4 years ago, it stated, how can I be gentle and not get banned....Another reason the Japanese population is falling is because of its *** industry. i.e. so many men now are into....ummm....lightly here, stuff, that they have lost interests in the oppsite *** a long time ago. They are not gay mind you, just that.....the Japanese **** stuff is so advanced, anything and everything that anyone crave for, gets satisfied. As one Japanese man said, "Why would I find a girl and get married? They are Bistchy, take money to pamper, throw tantrums, and besides, my "Cravings" is such, no girl will ever satisfy me!" I don't wanna talk too much on this anymore simply because of the subject, but could the Japanese really, how do you say this, "advanced" **** industry have a doing in this also?
May i ask you what is so advanced about rape **** in all it forms? Thats what most Japanese **** is about. How does it make one unwilling to get a girlfriend, unless one didnt had a chance to get one in first place? I seriously dont think that is fault of ****, that they have so few children.

[Stryder Kennset]

China is one big company. :grin:

The problem with that concept is that China got nothing "Tangible" to back it up. Ie, I forgot which Japanese PM that said it, but he proudly says whenever he goes to G4 or G20 summit, his left face is Toyota, his left is Sony and other Japanese electronic industry. U.S.? Same. MS is the left face, Intel the right, the rest are like all wild cards to put on the table when the talk comes. China.....YIIPPPEEE, We got cheap labor, you must teh respect us!!! I'm the shoe shine boy that shine everyone's shoes. It's only because I shinned so much shoes and bought so many stuff I'll never use, I grew rich, so here I am at the table....The rest? Ok....Fine! But we all know, if you DARE to raise your price, we will just leave you outside the curb and turn to someone else, like Vietnam, Indonesia or S. Afica! China........Ok.....WHEEEE! I'm rich! I ma joining the big boyz! I got teh powah!!!

That's the whole Chinese economy wrapped in a few words. China is so labor dependent, without it, it is nothing. And the only thing that keep it going is its cheap labor costs compared to say Japan or U.S. Without anything the world really needs or depend on like Intel chips or MS services and products, China the "Company" has no face or no wild cards to bring to the table, and if they raise their price of service, they are "outta here" in a hurry! Chinese CCP knows this and is trying to change it. But again, with corruption up the wazoo and the fact that the CCP will never relingquish power even if the end decision hurt their economic development, you can say China has already hit a ceiling, at a much lower level and much much faster than Japan ever did.

[Stryder Kennset]

Again, I have to be becareful since this not a P@rn site here.

It's that the s&x industry in Japan is so advanced, if you got the craving for something....weird, or even normal, there are almost too many myrid of...stuff you can buy to satisfy even the most "out there" urges. Stuff that no sane girl anywhere around the world will do or has the strength of stamina to do. And if they really want the geniuen thing, there are marid of bars and other stuff that they can get some "Womenly love" for some very cheap price. HELL, some Japanese company, in order to keep their young male employees happy, would organize "S&x trips" to place like Thailand or China so they can experience "Womenly Love" in all its glory. Safe to say, some Japanese men soon get so "Stuntted" that no Japanese women, especially if the women is seeking a long term steady relationship, can satisfy them. They just go home, knock themselves silly, and if they want the real thing, pay around less than $50 for some fun...And that is that. I think if anyone know about the "Weirdness" of the Japanese "dark seeming" industry, know what I'm talking about.....

[IanSolo]

This is because I think, like China, Japan is mostly moutainous and barren. In term of USABLE land to the population, Japan is some of the most dense in term of population density in the world, placing 3 or 4th in the world I think. And as you say, with the movement to the cities, the crush of population will become even worse. I heard that one time (don't know if true anymore) that if you want to own a car, you have to prove you have a place to park it first. Such is the "tight" nature of Japan.

Hehehe, It's really true, without a box/garage or just a car place you can't own a car....Shinigami can confirm it. Btw, I think it's also related to the dimension of many Japanese streets...how much are tiny !!! A car 'american style', so wide one, can't pass in....Japan's most common cars are short and 'thin' like Suzuki alto, Daihatsu move etc etc

[Nyusu]

Again, I have to be becareful since this not a P@rn site here.

It's that the s&x industry in Japan is so advanced, if you got the craving for something....weird, or even normal, there are almost too many myrid of...stuff you can buy to satisfy even the most "out there" urges. Stuff that no sane girl anywhere around the world will do or has the strength of stamina to do. And if they really want the geniuen thing, there are marid of bars and other stuff that they can get some "Womenly love" for some very cheap price. HELL, some Japanese company, in order to keep their young male employees happy, would organize "S&x trips" to place like Thailand or China so they can experience "Womenly Love" in all its glory. Safe to say, some Japanese men soon get so "Stuntted" that no Japanese women, especially if the women is seeking a long term steady relationship, can satisfy them. They just go home, knock themselves silly, and if they want the real thing, pay around less than $50 for some fun...And that is that. I think if anyone know about the "Weirdness" of the Japanese "dark seeming" industry, know what I'm talking about.....
Again I think you are thinking too much into it. US has big *** industry, Germany has big *** industry, Italy and France and lot of other countries do have them too. And they too make *** trips for their employees. But they still have relationship, marriage and children. They are lower then they used to be, but it has nothing to do with *** industry. Most people there who use its services wish to have a girlfriend or wife. Or have them. *** industry isnt meant to replace normal relationship and real *** for main part of people who use its services. And it doesnt. To say that Japan has too few children because of it just isnt true. Yes there are people whos only *** life is ****, but in most cases it because of inferiority complexes that lead to them being unable to communicate with women. Such people staying single with out any **** too, as they have it hard to find someone. Rest of people still try to find a girlfriend unless they cannot because of work and living cost.

[IconOfEvi]

That's actually a good post.

So there is hope.

There is always hope

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, in this as in anything else.

Humans are at their strongest when the times are trying, I think.

One then may see the worst of people, but they will also see the best.

[IanSolo]

Yeah, China is at the cusp of that. Despite GDP being num. 2 right now, I STILL peg China's economy as a whole down below around 20th place or so, WAAAYYY behind Japan's. The problem, as the start of a MSNBC article states: "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 German company that the world depends on" Easy: Mercedes, BMW, Krupp, Thyssen-Henschel, MBB, Semens etc. "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 Japanese company that the world depends on!" Again, easy peasy: Sony, Panasonic/Masush!ta, Toshiba, Toyota, Honda, NEC etc. "Quick, 3 seconds, name 1 U.S. company that the world depends on!" Even easier! MS, Intel, ORacle, nVidia, Coca-Cola, Lockheed-Martin, GE, Boeing, Raytheon, Cisco, Pratt&Whitney, IBM, Motorolla, DARPA (not a company, but so many stuff, like the intertubes, comes from here), and the biggest high tech scat cat in the room right now, Apple. Now, quick, 3 seconds, name a famous Chinese company that the world depend on! oohhhhh...ummm...yeah....ummm...Ohh SH!T!!!

And that's the whole entire problem with the Chinese economy, it is totally build on "Quantity", ie, lots of empty houses that are never occupied, the world greatest and largest mall that's totally empty, or the road in front of where I currently live, dig up, fill in, dig up, fill in, dig up fill in, dig up...you get the picture. There is no quality, ie, no product or license that if someone else want to use, I collect royalty. i.e. no service based, no world wide company, no international presence no nada. This is why the Chinese government is such an acornhole when it comes to RMB value vs the dollar. They KNOW full well if the RMB is allowed to rise to say 4RMB to 1 dollar, then every company who's in China for its cheap labor will leave and with no back up, Chinese economy gonna go south in a hurry and make Japan look like child's play


Lunchtime! So I have some minutes to write here....and to do the 'devil's advocate': Quick, in 3 seconds: tell me one of any of these 'colossus' of economy (doesn't matter wich one) that doesn't produce in China or uses pieces made in China.....maybe just Coca Cola but I am not so sure....
BTW....In the time I was eating a 'fastfood' lunch I've eard two news from an Economic Network...1st: Total sold an entire branch for Oil extraction in Colombia to a Chinese company 2nd: Nokia will close 2 plants in Europe (1 in Finland and 1 in Hungary) and 1 in Mexico to move the production to Asia....and I bet is not Japan.

[shinigami]

Hehehe, It's really true, without a box/garage or just a car place you can't own a car....Shinigami can confirm it. Btw, I think it's also related to the dimension of many Japanese streets...how much are tiny !!! A car 'american style', so wide one, can't pass in....Japan's most common cars are short and 'thin' like Suzuki alto, Daihatsu move etc etc


Yes this true and if we do not have a parking lot and not allowed to buy a car.

Large cities are becoming increasingly crowded.
But while rural villages are becoming deserted, a young man born in Okinawa when the first goal in life and leave the island and go to a big city.

[shinigami]

Again, I have to be becareful since this not a P@rn site here.

It's that the s&x industry in Japan is so advanced, if you got the craving for something....weird, or even normal, there are almost too many myrid of...stuff you can buy to satisfy even the most "out there" urges. Stuff that no sane girl anywhere around the world will do or has the strength of stamina to do. And if they really want the geniuen thing, there are marid of bars and other stuff that they can get some "Womenly love" for some very cheap price. HELL, some Japanese company, in order to keep their young male employees happy, would organize "S&x trips" to place like Thailand or China so they can experience "Womenly Love" in all its glory. Safe to say, some Japanese men soon get so "Stuntted" that no Japanese women, especially if the women is seeking a long term steady relationship, can satisfy them. They just go home, knock themselves silly, and if they want the real thing, pay around less than $50 for some fun...And that is that. I think if anyone know about the "Weirdness" of the Japanese "dark seeming" industry, know what I'm talking about.....

Yes I agree there the same problem too, the *** industry has a lot of Japanese influence in Japanese society.
Japanese men find that his wife serves only to make and raise children, if he wants to fulfill their ****** desires he will look for the *** industry.

[shinigami]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ZyV9DyxDY&feature=related

Discussion in parliament on the same topic, Panasonic / Matsu****a, which had record loss this year, profit was USD 60 billion in the year 2009/2010 due to the exchange system of analog TVs to digital in Japan, was that the group received about USD10 billion in government subsidies in 2009/2010.
In late 2011, the company decided to close eight factories in Japan due to the large drop in sales, and fire 15,000 workers,these numbers are for direct jobs and indirect jobs are temporary totaling the numbers should go from 100 000.
The group does not intend to close any factory or make job cuts on the outside only in Japan,
Most problems have to do with the high value of the yen, the guy asks the prime minister what he thinks about it and he says:

I know that the strong yen is affecting the entire industry, but what better than to close the factories of the company to go to bankruptcy ...

[Stryder Kennset]

Lunchtime! So I have some minutes to write here....and to do the 'devil's advocate': Quick, in 3 seconds: tell me one of any of these 'colossus' of economy (doesn't matter wich one) that doesn't produce in China or uses pieces made in China.....maybe just Coca Cola but I am not so sure....
BTW....In the time I was eating a 'fastfood' lunch I've eard two news from an Economic Network...1st: Total sold an entire branch for Oil extraction in Colombia to a Chinese company 2nd: Nokia will close 2 plants in Europe (1 in Finland and 1 in Hungary) and 1 in Mexico to move the production to Asia....and I bet is not Japan.

I tried to answer back yesterday, but home computer won't allow me to post.

Anyways, what I was trying to say was, yes, while you are right in saying that, yes, I like to play the devil's advocate too. However, as much as that argument is true for now, as I've said, China is litterally a one trick pony, and if anyone gets tired of that one trick, China is basically But F'ed. It's like this, lets say tommorow U.S. decides to F the world a bit by just announcing they will shut down the intertubes for 1 week, what will be the world wide reaction? Ohh, probably somewhere between total suicide and mas panic. Every stock market will probably take a 25% dip, every country in teh world probably instantly plunge to a recession until U.S. Says, "Guys! Guys! We were just KIDDING! Can you even handle a joke?!?" Now let's say China does the same and say, "I hate you world! You always follow the imperialists Ameereeca! You stupid for not follow me! Me punishes you with firing every company that has factory here! You hurt!!!" Well we get hurt, well, of course, it will hurt, but panic? Not that much. Why? Simple, China low skill, labor intensive economy is what my econ prof in college would like to call a "easily replaceable serivce or product". Yes, for the first two year, it will hurt as all the companies transition to other countries. But the thing is, transition they will since any other country would LOVE to get the action that China is now getting. In fact, if China decides to act this stupid, those countries, Vietnam, Indoniesia, South Africa for ex. will instanteous jump into action, offer discounts, incentives etc to attract those colossus to invest in their country. HELL, some countries, like the U.S. would be actually jumping for joy if China decided to do this since it means some of the manufacturing jobs will be coming back, shoring up its own economy. So after two years, guess what? Everyone goes back to their own business, the world keeps on turning....and China just got left behind holding an empty bag and the rest of the world could care less. This is what happens when you don't have any back ups and is so depended on labor and why CCP keeps the exchange rate it is despite all the outcries....China just don't have any other outlet or advantages. If they let this one thing slid, they are total gonners!

Do the CCP worried about this? Ohh yes. They already have plan with "China 2.0", and it is everything that I talked about, ie, less dependednt on labor and easily produced, labor intensive, cheap products, more service oriented, produce a product that's needed everywhere else and made elsewhere so China can collect royalty, and most of all, produce a Chinese company that's famous worldwide and world needs and depends like Intel or Toyota. That's good and all, but the problem as I mentioned earlier, is that if that conflicts with CCP's hold on power, sorry, no go! CCP will hold on power no matter what, even if it means it hurts them in the long run.

So now, China is in a real dicotomy. BEcause the govern. is controlling the exchange and the important stuff really tight (like not allowing cheaper, more high quality import stuff into the control or tax them to hell and back), China's economy maybe ballooning, but as I said, alot quantity, no quality. And the riches gained from it is distributed to the very few. It's a sign of the times when a 220 sq meters/2200 sq feet house in the U.S. cost around 250K. Meanwhile, here in Beijing, the same 220 sq meter APARTMENT building cost around $600K! Yes, that's dollars, not RMB. And if you factor the "Chinese Concept" of "Living Area Rate" and "Remodeling" you have to pay even more! All of these are felt by the average populous and they are not happy. The dicotomy is again, if Beijing let people do what they want, they get hurt. IF they really really let reform in, the economy will probably hiccup, and they get hurt. So they just keep on going like an out of control locomotive heading for the cliff, wondering when the collapse will happen....And when it do, I hope I'm not around to witness it!

EDIT: F'ing finally after 7 different tries lol!

[Stryder Kennset]

Thanks for the confirmation Shini!!!

I would never convince Nyusu otherwise!

Yeah, that's what I heard, and if anyone know anything about "hentai" (no no, I didnt say it! I didnt say it!!!) , you KNOW how bad that problem is in Japan! HELL, I heard some shocking rumors that desparate Japanese women, in order to keep their men happy and fufilled, and their marriages intact, have to ACTIVELY SEEK OUT and find call girls and other willing women, such as their friends to give their men something "Different" to experience! I mean, that's just F'ed up!

[Nyusu]

Thanks for the confirmation Shini!!!

I would never convince Nyusu otherwise!

Yeah, that's what I heard, and if anyone know anything about "hentai" (no no, I didnt say it! I didnt say it!!!) , you KNOW how bad that problem is in Japan! HELL, I heard some shocking rumors that desparate Japanese women, in order to keep their men happy and fufilled, and their marriages intact, have to ACTIVELY SEEK OUT and find call girls and other willing women, such as their friends to give their men something "Different" to experience! I mean, that's just F'ed up!
Well maybe i have troubles to overcome my western thinking, as with same things available here(**** via internet) as prostitutes of all kinds available, i dont see anything of what would be comparable to what you describe in japan. But it means that problems lies not in *** industry itself(as its comparable to what is available in lots of countries in the world), but in Japanese society as such. And i would actually like to know what exactly leads to it, as from outsider view I cannot find what exactly is causing this problem. Work life is hard here too, girls are demanding too. But why such difference in result? Lack of Christian values? Late emancipation? Or something else?

[IconOfEvi]

The final result is coming soon

I can already feel the hint of a animating idea returning...we shall see

[Kaaskop]

Thanks for the confirmation Shini!!!

I would never convince Nyusu otherwise!

Yeah, that's what I heard, and if anyone know anything about "hentai" (no no, I didnt say it! I didnt say it!!!) , you KNOW how bad that problem is in Japan! HELL, I heard some shocking rumors that desparate Japanese women, in order to keep their men happy and fufilled, and their marriages intact, have to ACTIVELY SEEK OUT and find call girls and other willing women, such as their friends to give their men something "Different" to experience! I mean, that's just F'ed up!

So you base your statements on rumors you have heard? That doesn't sound very convincing, does it? :P
There are probably differences concerning this issue between Japan and the Western world, but I'm sure you are exaggerating a lot.

[Pipedreamer]

So you base your statements on rumors you have heard? That doesn't sound very convincing, does it? :P
There are probably differences concerning this issue between Japan and the Western world, but I'm sure you are exaggerating a lot.

Don't mind a discusting post from a lunatic freaky.

This S.K. guy spoke like an Asian, very likely a South Korean. Unwelcome category on the board.


Back to the topic, the Japanese nation is experiencing a transitional period and they will regain their domain in technology innovation. Good luck to them.

[shinigami]

Thanks for the confirmation Shini!!!

I would never convince Nyusu otherwise!

Yeah, that's what I heard, and if anyone know anything about "hentai" (no no, I didnt say it! I didnt say it!!!) , you KNOW how bad that problem is in Japan! HELL, I heard some shocking rumors that desparate Japanese women, in order to keep their men happy and fufilled, and their marriages intact, have to ACTIVELY SEEK OUT and find call girls and other willing women, such as their friends to give their men something "Different" to experience! I mean, that's just F'ed up!


Again there is a lot of it is correct that women buy books and magazines on the subject, and study the subject in order to please men.
On the other hand men prefer to spend a night $ 50 ~ 300 to satisfy your fantasies with girls of 18 ~ 22 years.

[Nyusu]

Again there is a lot of it is correct that women buy books and magazines on the subject, and study the subject in order to please men.
On the other hand men prefer to spend a night $ 50 ~ 300 to satisfy your fantasies with girls of 18 ~ 22 years.
Btw. isnt prostitution officially forbidden in Japan? So crackdown on it may help.

[shinigami]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3056c896-521c-11e1-a155-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ltpaNJhU

Last year, a record 208 Japanese companies set up in Vietnam.

[shinigami]

Japan's public pension fund, the world's largest, should shift more of its investments into foreign assets from domestic bonds to help weaken the yen, a senior ruling party official said on Thursday.

"It would have the same effect as currency intervention,"Seiji Maehara, the Democratic Party of Japan's policy chief, told a parliament session.
Japanese policy-makers worry that the yen's strength damages the economy by making exports more expensive.
The Government Pension Investment Fund (GPIF) had assets of 108.9 trillion yen (S$1.76 trillion) at the end of September, nearly as big as the Russian economy. About 17 per cent was in foreign assets.
Maehara said the Bank of Japan could prevent a shift of funds by the GPIF from triggering a spike in long-term interest rates by boosting its purchases of Japanese government bonds.
Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda was noncommittal, saying the idea could expose pension funds to too much currency risk and complicate relations with other countries if it aims for an effect similar to yen-selling intervention.
But he said the idea was worth looking into. "We need to set a certain direction (on this idea) after discussions looking at various aspects," he said.
The idea may not make much headway soon given that the GPIF suffered huge losses on foreign bonds and equities in the July-September quarter due to the yen's rise.
But the proposal underscores the growing frustration among lawmakers over the stubbornly strong yen, which neared its record high of 75.31 yen against the dollar last week despite verbal threats of currency intervention by the finance minister.
On Thursday it was trading around 77.15 yen.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20120209-326817.html

[braveheartnju]

deleted, post in wrong thread, sorry

[shinigami]

Btw. isnt prostitution officially forbidden in Japan? So crackdown on it may help.

The prostitution is banned but if registered businesses (nightclubs), there is nothing forbidden, and who controls this market as patinkos most owners are Yakuzas.

In Japan you pay for women in bars, discos and clubs to drink luxury.
But also there is a trade night, nighttime is said but most works almost 24 hours a day.
Shop for licking a lollipop, $ 50 ~ $ 130 per hour.
Store for massages all kinds, $ 30 ~ $ 170 per hour.
Partial service stores, $ 80 ~ $ 300 per hour.
Shops for full service, $ 500 ~ $ 4000 per hour.
you can choose fat, old, skinny, foreign, young girls from 18 years up to 75 years, married women, has it all.
Japanese women who work in this field, earning $ 6,000 ~ $ 130,000 per month.

[Nyusu]

The prostitution is banned but if registered businesses (nightclubs), there is nothing forbidden, and who controls this market as patinkos most owners are Yakuzas.

In Japan you pay for women in bars, discos and clubs to drink luxury.
But also there is a trade night, nighttime is said but most works almost 24 hours a day.
Shop for licking a lollipop, $ 50 ~ $ 130 per hour.
Store for massages all kinds, $ 30 ~ $ 170 per hour.
Partial service stores, $ 80 ~ $ 300 per hour.
Shops for full service, $ 500 ~ $ 4000 per hour.
you can choose fat, old, skinny, foreign, young girls from 18 years up to 75 years, married women, has it all.
Japanese women who work in this field, earning $ 6,000 ~ $ 130,000 per month.
It seems that corruption is pretty high, as no one really does anything about Yakuza run shops that everyone know to be illegal.

Btw. prices look pretty high actually compared to Europe. Having a girlfriend looks actually way cheaper unless you are fine with having it done once or twice a months.

[Stryder Kennset]

To Shini:

It's the same in China.

One time, one of my American friend came to visit me while I was working and living in Shanghai, and he said, why there are so many "Massage PAlors" around here? I just quibble and smile...At first he was like, can we go and experience some of their massages? I said yeah, you can, just be prepared for some "extra" services. What "extra services?". Eventually he understood that those massage parlors are just front for brothels. These brothels can be as $50 for the whole night, and you can do anything to the girls and they would not complain. For more "personal" and "deeper experiences" service, you can go to high end monolethic nighclus/Kareoke clubs where the ""special" services can run you upward of $1000 per hour. And there is nothing you can do about them since these nightclub owners have great "guan xi" with local or city officials (i.e. they bribed the hell out of them).

As for Nyusu:

Now, I don't profess I know about Japan like China, but Japan did borrow alot of their culture and thinking from China though, so it doesn't surprise me or shock me and I understand them easily, unlike a lot of Westerners.

1st of all, like China, if you wanna understand Japan, throw out all concept of Judeo-Christian beliefs, especially the concept of life is sacrosonic. That concept just does not apply here, along with the "10 commandments".

So this is true with a lot of Asian's view on women and marriage. The concept of marriage is between "1 man and 1 women" have never entered into the Chinese and Japanese lexicon until very very recently, which mean old habits die very very hard. Whenever one of my American friend come to Beijing and I take them to the Forbidden City, and mentions that a single Chinese Emperor of the past would have 3000 young, nubile Chinese women who's sole duty is to get knocked up by the Emperor and giving him children and male heirs, they all go, "WTFBBQSAUCE!!!" They just can't grasp the concept. They all go, those poor poor Chinese women. I smiled and said, they are not poor. If the Emperor, on his tour, "Gloried" a woman, especially a virgin, it's the greatest honor that can be bestowed on her and she will be taken care of for life. If a woman is chosen to enter the Emperor's harem, then it's even more honor. Even more honor is bestowed if she give birt to a boy for the emperor. They just shake their heads and say they will never understand. I'm not so sure on what the number is for Japan, But I doubt it's any different. The emperor of Japan of old probably also kept a harem of young girls for the specific purpose of giving heirs.

Same with the common folks, Japan or China. IF you got the means, you can have as many women as you want. In ancient Japan, you're supposed to have only one official wife, but as for consorts, you can have as many you want. Same with China. Even with that, the wife is STILL responsible for sometimes finding a "woman toy" for his husband to play with should he choose so. Which for many westerners, is pretty much F'ed up. This continued until both China and Japan made contact with the world. It was supposedly offcially enned in in Japan with the MEiji restoration and China with the creation of the Republic. However, it's "supposedly" since it did not officially end until China turned communism in 1949 and Japan lost WW II.

But as the two countries economy improved, old habits started to worm their way back again. In China, if you are well off and very rich, if you don't have at least one mistress, then you are actually looked DOWN upon! Many faithful husband, after becoming reach, hit a ceiling because he doesn't have a misstress, forcing his wife to actually go out, hire a close friend to be one! Again, from a Westerner point of view, F'ed up! Same with Japan, and with Japan having more time to "practice", it's bound to get worse. Many Japanese men are now reverting back to the bad ol' days, where the "Official" wife is jsut a "Baby maker", and the men frequent brothels or have a "consort" for the rest.....This is becoming so bad that many Japan watchers are now saying that if this doesn't come to a halt, Japan's birthrate will continue to drop. It's like adding a layer of salt to the proverbial wound.

[Nyusu]

To Stryder Kennset: packing my things, moving to Japan. ^_^ One can get used to everything. Oh wait, I dont eat fish. That could be troublesome.
I actually knew about how things were done in China and Japan before, but i thought that they became more westernized as this is how their medias show them. Concept of one partner did enter their movies and tv series long time ago already, so one could gets different picture from them. Is there difference between generations as in west or does young generation think about this things the same?

[Kaaskop]

@ Stryder Kennset
Their s*x/family culture may be a bit weird in a Western point of view, but then again, I think you are exaggerating. Besides, are we really that different? For instance, prostitution is legal here in The Netherlands and it attracts a lot of Western customers from all over Europe.

Even if you aren't exaggerating regarding that issue, the Japanese culture has to offer a lot of aspects of which Western societies can learn from. While most industrialized nations became individualism societies, the Japanese society is more group-oriented. For instance, there were barely lootings during the 2011 earthquake (compare this to New Orleans, for example), there are extremely low crime rates, people wear masks when they catched a cold to not infect others, etc.
And on top of that, there are more admirable aspects of their culture. Japanese are very polite, for example. Their strive for efficiency is amazing too. I really think the Western world can learn a lot from them.

[IanSolo]

@ Stryder Kennset
Their s*x/family culture may be a bit weird in a Western point of view, but then again, I think you are exaggerating. Besides, are we really that different? For instance, prostitution is legal here in The Netherlands and it attracts a lot of Western customers from all over Europe.

Even if you aren't exaggerating regarding that issue, the Japanese culture has to offer a lot of aspects of which Western societies can learn from. While most industrialized nations became individualism societies, the Japanese society is more group-oriented. For instance, there were barely lootings during the 2011 earthquake (compare this to New Orleans, for example), there are extremely low crime rates, people wear masks when they catched a cold to not infect others, etc.
And on top of that, there are more admirable aspects of their culture. Japanese are very polite, for example. Their strive for efficiency is amazing too. I really think the Western world can learn a lot from them.

In the same time that on TV were rolling the images of the beginning of the revolutions in islamic countries showing they were killing each other w/o mercy, the other 'rolling images' of that period was the tsunami and post tsunami one. I saw people repairing roads and electric cables and water pipelines near Fukushima ; when the Journalist asked them if they knew that the zone was hugely radioactive and they could have several problems they responded: 'yes we know, but if we don't do it many people will be blocekd w/o help'.

I think that is a photo of Japanese society (excluding politician class): common welfare is more important than personal one....this is why they have such a regolated, educated and organised society and why they have , in many case, unorganised personal lifes and many problems related to it (marriage,unfair loveaffairs otaku and so on); same reason about their
dedition to the job....they give to it all of their energies and time and in many cases there's not so much space anymore for family (so time with wife and childs)also, for an Italian like me, it seems that sometimes Japanese aren't able to know how to enjoy their time....

This is what I've understood about Japan and Japanese until know...chigau desuka?

A small addition: Tsunami and Fukushima episode have shown to all the world how much pride Japanese people have, even an economical decrease , this is a value that can't be bought with money...

[Kaaskop]

I couldn't agree more with you.

[DS73]

@ Stryder Kennset

...While most industrialized nations became individualism societies, the Japanese society is more group-oriented...As it is well known the world is divided on those who played football with japanese, and those who haven't.
The sence of personal responsability, and generally the society induced "maximum efforts" "I'll do my best" (gambarimasu) chorus, you hear everywhere there, are not directed to the "group" but to the self-esteem feeling which is extremely important there, and the japanese as a society are horrible in "group things". Be it proper relief from natural catastrophes, accepting help from others, or in fighting as a proper military unite.