Russia: UN resolution on Syria is path to war

[icefrog]

BEIRUT (AP) — A senior Russian diplomat Tuesday said a draftU.N. resolution demanding Syrian President Bashar Assad step aside is a "path to civil war," as Syrian troops besieged rebellious areas with hours of shelling and machine-gun fire.
The U.N. Security Council was set to meet later Tuesday to discuss the draft, backed by Western and some Arab powers. But Russiawould likely veto any strong action against Damascus.
"The Western draft Security Council resolution on Syria does not lead to a search for compromise," Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov wrote Tuesday on Twitter. "Pushing thisresolution is a path to civil war."

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-un-resolution-syria-path-war-130605420.html

[Seek]

I think the situation in syria is well ahead of what Russia seems to think what's going on in there...

[Steak-Sauce]

A senior Russian diplomat Tuesday said a draftU.N. resolution demanding Syrian President Bashar Assad step aside is a "path to civil war," as Syrian troops besieged rebellious areas with hours of shelling and machine-gun fire.
Syrians are killing Syrians. Doesn't look like a civil war at all. :roll:

[shermbodius]

The Russkies put their foot in their mouth.

[S0NY]

so many dead people in Syria and Russia still blocks the FN resolution

not a good move from russia!!

[Token White Guy]

Let's see.

1. Assad forces soldiers to attack protestors.
2. Soldiers defect and take up arms to defend protestors.
3. Fighting between FSA and Asaad's men ensues all around Syria.

Yeah, no civil war there. :roll:

[xav]

The regime of Bashar al-Assad has no control over "50% of the territory" of Syria, said today the head of the free Syrian Army (ASL), Colonel Riad Al-Assaad, saying its forces had not necessarily got hold of these regions. Approximately "50% of Syrian territory are no longer under the control of the regime. This does not mean total control of ASL in these regions," said Colonel based in Turkey.
translated: http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2012/01/31/97001-20120131FILWWW00581-50-de-la-syrie-plus-controlee-par-assad.php

[IconOfEvi]

Russia is behind the times again O_o

[shermbodius]

I would recommend sending in Putin, bare-chested riding his lion to sort this situation out. IMHO

Francis

[The Left Hand of God]

Oh, as in the Civil War that's going on right now?

[geolocator]

It's obvious that after a resolution for Assad to step aside will follow air strikes and etc. And all the propaganda about Assad's support is no more than a bull.... Russia will never agree to a resolution like this. Of cause, Assad will finally step aside, but the folowing bloody civil war should not be enshrined by Russia even implicitly. Russia will not be a looser only in one case - if it willl block all resolutions like the current. If there will be a decison without UNSC Russia only gains trumps which it doesn't have now.

[kalerab]

It's obvious that after a resolution for Assad to step aside will follow air strikes and etc. And all the propaganda about Assad's support is no more than a bull.... Russia will never agree to a resolution like this. Of cause, Assad will finally step aside, but the folowing bloody civil war should not be enshrined by Russia even implicitly. Russia will not be a looser only in one case - if it willl block all resolutions like the current. If there will be a decison without UNSC Russia only gains trumps which it doesn't have now.

So resolution which explicitly states that it rules out any military intervention based on it will be obviously used as justification for military intervention. Sounds solid.

Oh bytheway I appreciate Russian believef that 10 months of UNSC silence made things much better and not other way around.

[themacedonian]

A UN resolution that says "assad step down" is leading to a war. If voted intervention is justified since Assad is not stepping down. US will simply say UN told us to bring him down.

They want Russia to authorise external regime change.

[Shurik SST]

A UN resolution that says "assad step down" is leading to a war. If voted intervention is justified since Assad is not stepping down. US will simply say UN told us to bring him down.

They want Russia to authorise external regime change.

No way man, you are way to reasoned in your response. Why can't you just call for war on Syria, it is much simpler?

[S0NY]

it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck

[The Kaiser Chief]

it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck

While drying your tears think about how many times other greater powers have thought about that...

[my name again]

it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck

If Russia apporves such a resolution a lot more people will die in much shorter timespan.

[Pankrat]

it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck
After what the west did in Libya I cannot really blame Russia.

Syrian people are better off without foreign intervention. Let the Syrians decide the fate of their own country.

[kalerab]

A UN resolution that says "assad step down" is leading to a war. If voted intervention is justified since Assad is not stepping down. US will simply say UN told us to bring him down.

They want Russia to authorise external regime change.

There is ongoing war in Syria, that is simple fact. And it wont stop till Assad leave the country, possibly not even after that. Assad stying in power is same as Saleh staying in power, it will lead only to more violence, more dead and bigger conflict than is there now. And despite Syrian claims reason for current violence is not external, but internal factor. Only chance for easy and eventuall end of this conflict lies first and most in Assad leaving his power and government which will include opposition in it. Russian current stance is doing nothing and hope that by some miracle Assad can end this conflict by force however so far he failed miserably in this aspect and more and more soldiers are defecting.

[Hisroyalhighness]

To Russian Diplomat: Oh, so the situation there is just a minor bread riot?


While drying your tears think about how many times other greater powers have thought about that...
Libya? Former Yugoslavia? But granted those are fairly recent. There is an entire list of conflicts that the greater powers didn't interfere because of the lack of "rewards".

Also Russia's main concern in this crises is business, they really don't care about the crackdowns or about Assad, as long as the money is flowing and in a smaller Priority: Tratus naval station.


it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck

:petting:

[JCR]

Well all I hear from Assad in recent weeks if not months is willingness to negotiate, which is always refuted by the rebels/insurgents/whatever.
They're escalating this until there's an intervention and it wouldn't surprise me if they have help from the same arab nations who helped in Libya

[Royal]

it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck

Russia doesn't give a toss about selling weapons - it wants to keep its warm water port at Tartus.

[Hisroyalhighness]

Russia doesn't give a toss about selling weapons - it wants to keep its warm water port at Tartus.

Well Tratus Port yes, but Russia certainly does give a toss about selling weaponry as noted by the $550 Million deal regarding 36 Yak-130 Trainers.

[Raden5]

Let's see.

1. Assad forces soldiers to attack protestors.
2. Soldiers defect and take up arms to defend protestors.
3. Fighting between FSA and Asaad's men ensues all around Syria.

Hmm...
The situation in Afghanistan, in THIS terminology:

1. Hamid Karzai uses soldiers against dissenters (the any killed is named a "militant").
2. Soldiers go over to the side partisan and are fighting against the occupation forces
3. The war against the anti-people regime and the occupation troops was going on all over the country (more than ten years).

The fall of the regime Assad will inevitably lead to power of the islamic radicals (sunnis).

Can somebody explain - with whom and for what they are fighting in Afghanistan?

[Royal]

What's 550 million to Russia - small change - and that assumes that the Syrians would actually pay it/be in a position to pay it with the economy in shreds, the banks blocked by the west and all the lose cash heading to Beirut in a taxi...

[tanks_alot]

Well all I hear from Assad in recent weeks if not months is willingness to negotiate, which is always refuted by the rebels/insurgents/whatever.
They're escalating this until there's an intervention and it wouldn't surprise me if they have help from the same arab nations who helped in Libya

Assad might have managed to negotiate when the riots began, but he opted instead to use a heavy handed approach and the more blood spills, the harder it would be to get the rebels to sit and negotiate. assuming all of the news coming out of Syria are accurate, than the rebels are the ones with the growing momentum, so a cease fire which probably won't lead anywhere, will only serve Assad. and what is there really to negotiate about for them? they want Assad's regime gone.

[Hisroyalhighness]

What's 550 million to Russia - small change - and that assumes that the Syrians would actually pay it/be in a position to pay it with the economy in shreds, the banks blocked by the west and all the lose cash heading to Beirut in a taxi...

Good Point. But Russia, and more importantly, Rosoboronexport and the Federal Military-Technical Agency; lost over 4 Billion dollars worth of contracts when Libyans wanted MuMu's head on a stick.

Who knows how much Russia will lose when Assad will fall?

I'm guessing the reason why Russia even made the YAK contract is to extract some change from Assad and when it comes time to deliver the planes, they will pull a left turn, keeping the planes for the Airforce and Assad's Money, Win Win.

[JCR]

Yes and they want the west to do the dirty work for them as usual.
Btw I wouldn't be so enthusiastic about regime change in Syria.
When they're done with the Alawites and the Christians and all their other minorities they will turn back on Israel.
If not earlier.

[memfisa]

it's sad that Russia does not care that people die but they just want to sell their weapons, they really don't give a fvck

For the love of god, pass me the tissues, my heart is broken

Haven't looked into recent history much, huh?

[artjomh]

What's 550 million to Russia - small change - and that assumes that the Syrians would actually pay it/be in a position to pay it with the economy in shreds, the banks blocked by the west and all the lose cash heading to Beirut in a taxi...

I wouldn't discard the military contracts too quickly.

Military-industrial corporations form a huge electoral support base for Putin. This is an election year, Putin does not want to needlessly piss off his core constituency after the dual Libyan and Iranian fiascos. Public sector is not an inconsequential voting block in Russia and no vote is taken for granted in current political atmosphere.

[themacedonian]

There is ongoing war in Syria, that is simple fact. And it wont stop till Assad leave the country, possibly not even after that. Assad stying in power is same as Saleh staying in power, it will lead only to more violence, more dead and bigger conflict than is there now. And despite Syrian claims reason for current violence is not external, but internal factor. Only chance for easy and eventuall end of this conflict lies first and most in Assad leaving his power and government which will include opposition in it. Russian current stance is doing nothing and hope that by some miracle Assad can end this conflict by force however so far he failed miserably in this aspect and more and more soldiers are defecting.

Assad will go down due to his inability to hold the country together. Having said that it is not just him but a complete system.
No one here wants to acknowledge that the new doctrine of R2P Responsibility to Protect is pushed heavily and somehow allows external powers to settle internal dispute. Knowing that internal disputes can be generated by many different ways and can have many different causes then the potential for war is endless.
With R2P one can find a cause to enter just about any African country as soon as elections get disputed in violent ways. But of cause such actions would be selective depending on the alignment of the troubled country.
Actually in Syria no it is a fight on local power level and on global idiological level where it is new vs the old way of running the world.
In a world where most the countries would be democratically elected one would think the reasons for war are smaller. R2P sows the seeds for new wars.

[tanks_alot]

Yes and they want the west to do the dirty work for them as usual.
Btw I wouldn't be so enthusiastic about regime change in Syria.
When they're done with the Alawites and the Christians and all their other minorities they will turn back on Israel.
If not earlier.

It's a possibility, but Assad's Syria is already hostile and operating actively with anyone who has a grudge against Israel. worse case scenario, you get a still hostile new Syria, but one which is also hostile towards Iran and Hezballah and it's always better to have your enemies divided.

[geolocator]

There is ongoing war in Syria, that is simple fact. And it wont stop till Assad leave the country, possibly not even after that. Assad stying in power is same as Saleh staying in power, it will lead only to more violence, more dead and bigger conflict than is there now.
Not at all. The war in Syria is mostly inspired from outside. Assad is like a hostage now - if he goes away there will be a real civil war. If he stays, there will be a slow civil war too until sanctions from outside will not kill off their economics. So no matter what happens next, the result will be the same.


It's a possibility, but Assad's Syria is already hostile and operating actively with anyone who has a grudge against Israel. worse case scenario, you get a still hostile new Syria, but one which is also hostile towards Iran and Hezballah and it's always better to have your enemies divided.
Maybe, but you simplify all this. If all countries were like Jordan... But there's a good news - all weapons around are from USA and they depend on supplies in a war case. On the other hand Israel could easily strike a deal with Assad on Holand Hights and get rid of Hezbollah a long time ago, but in the case it were against US geopolitical interests. Unlike Palestinian problem this end of the stick can be safeguarded in either case. IMO.

[Hisroyalhighness]

Not at all. The war in Syria is mostly inspired from outside. Assad is like a hostage now.
Sure Assad is just a benevolent leader who is the victim of an outside conspiracy.
(Sarcasm)

[JCR]

Problem is that responsibility to protect somehow seems to stop when a new government is in power which then has no responsibility to protect the supporters of the old regime.
As seen in Libya.
Syria is de facto a Sunni vs the Rest civil war.
What if the Sunnis take over?
They should have a responsibility to protect the supporters of the Assad regime, the Allavites, Christians, et cetera.
Will the West intervene again on their behalf when these minorities suffer the same fate as those in Iraq?



It's a possibility, but Assad's Syria is already hostile and operating actively with anyone who has a grudge against Israel. worse case scenario, you get a still hostile new Syria, but one which is also hostile towards Iran and Hezballah and it's always better to have your enemies divided.


Be careful what you wish for.
Well they will be united with Egypt, for one thing. Maybe also Yemen, Libya, Tunisia et cetera.
Most likely Lebanon as well.
The result of the Arab spring will be Regimes of Sunni fundamentalists democratically elected and enjoying a popular support no Arab government has enjoyed since the days of Nasser.

Israeli policy with its Iran paranoia is amazingly short sighted.

[themacedonian]

Assad might have managed to negotiate when the riots began, but he opted instead to use a heavy handed approach and the more blood spills, the harder it would be to get the rebels to sit and negotiate. assuming all of the news coming out of Syria are accurate, than the rebels are the ones with the growing momentum, so a cease fire which probably won't lead anywhere, will only serve Assad. and what is there really to negotiate about for them? they want Assad's regime gone.
Has there been some sort of a peace conference? Has any one placed Assad government in one room with the rebel council? Not just a suggestion but actually telling the rebels to negotiate face to face. Who are the rebels? What is the alternative after Assad? Is there a Ghandi we should be cheering for? Only demand now is down with Assad.
West is demanding action only and fall of regime not much else.

[kalerab]

Assad will go down due to his inability to hold the country together. Having said that it is not just him but a complete system.
No one here wants to acknowledge that the new doctrine of R2P Responsibility to Protect is pushed heavily and somehow allows external powers to settle internal dispute. Knowing that internal disputes can be generated by many different ways and can have many different causes then the potential for war is endless.
With R2P one can find a cause to enter just about any African country as soon as elections get disputed in violent ways. But of cause such actions would be selective depending on the alignment of the troubled country.
Actually in Syria no it is a fight on local power level and on global idiological level where it is new vs the old way of running the world.
In a world where most the countries would be democratically elected one would think the reasons for war are smaller. R2P sows the seeds for new wars.

Agreed. However keep in mind why R2P exists and when it was established. As for elections in Africa, who takes them seriously anyway? And bytheway it was used recently in your example - Ivory Coast and UN intervention on Ouattara side. Anyway in this crisis it seems that Arabs, Europeans and Americans wish that someone would intervene militarily but no one wants to take lead in it, just join the bandwagon later on and therefore they have to think of another aspect as how to bring down Assad regime as soon as possible. One possibility is arming rebels and financialy supporting (plus negotiating and bribing top officers in Syrian army so they would defect) them but it would take them probably more than a year to be on same level as Syrian army, another solution is put pressure on economical side. Assad is not supported only by Alawites but also by large portion of sunni merchan class which depends on foreign trade, blocking any trade lines with Turkey and putting more santions by Europeans, Americans and Arabs would in mid term force sunni merchant class to abandon Assad, heavily weakining his own position in Baath party which could lead to inter-party coup. For this having UNSC approved sanctions which will be respected by both Russia and Chine is crutial and I frankly believe that this is what this resolution is about, not about military intervention.



Not at all. The war in Syria is mostly inspired from outside. Assad is like a hostage now - if he goes away there will be a real civil war. If he stays, there will be a slow civil war too until sanctions from outside will not kill off their economics. So no matter what happens next, the result will be the same.

Yeah, sure. Because those are foreigners who now control most of Rif Dimashq Governorate (those are words of its governor), foreigners now control majority of third biggest city, foreigners are now fighting in Damascus suburbs, just few miles from center, foreigners now controlling Zabadani, foreigners control third of Hama, foreginers are battling troops in Idlib and Daraa and foreigners control large partions of Jabal Zawiya. This is civil war, Syrians are slaughtering Syrians but no one wants to admit it.

[deathil93]

Russia's and China's crooked interests are in the way of everything these days.

[geolocator]

Yeah, sure. Because those are foreigners who now control most of Rif Dimashq Governorate (those are words of its governor), foreigners now control majority of third biggest city, foreigners are now fighting in Damascus suburbs, just few miles from center, foreigners now controlling Zabadani, foreigners control third of Hama, foreginers are battling troops in Idlib and Daraa and foreigners control large partions of Jabal Zawiya. This is civil war, Syrians are slaughtering Syrians but no one wants to admit it.
You're joking. Let's put an economic blocade on a cool patient country Like Slovakia and I can bet in that in a year economic problems will throw down any governement and Trencin will be in hands of insurgents :)

[kalerab]

You're joking. Let's put an economic blocade on a cool patient country Like Slovakia and I can bet in that in a year economic problems will throw down any governement and Trencin will be in hands of insurgents :)

Last time Slovaks fought for something with weapons in their hands we waited till 120 milion people die and than did something. 67 years later and nothing changed here in this aspect, I assure you of that.

And what was first? Economical sanctions which started hitting hard in just past one-two months or insurgency and defections?

[S0NY]

Russia's and China's crooked interests are in the way of everything these days.

+1 '

[ragnarok]

It's a possibility, but Assad's Syria is already hostile and operating actively with anyone who has a grudge against Israel. worse case scenario, you get a still hostile new Syria, but one which is also hostile towards Iran and Hezballah and it's always better to have your enemies divided.

That seems to be the case if the FSA does take over. Even the FSA themselves stated that they will stop any support for Hezbolla if they took over. I think Isreal can use the FSA to their advantage in isolating Hezbolla and deal a critical goal to the Iranian gov't.

[tanks_alot]

Be careful what you wish for.
Well they will be united with Egypt, for one thing. Maybe also Yemen, Libya, Tunisia et cetera.
Most likely Lebanon as well.
The result of the Arab spring will be Regimes of Sunni fundamentalists democratically elected and enjoying a popular support no Arab government has enjoyed since the days of Nasser.

Israeli policy with its Iran paranoia is amazingly short sighted.

First of all, my personal opinion does not refelct Israel's official policy, but i'm flattered you would think so.

Secondly, so far Egypt is maintaining the peace, the rest of the North African countries post spring cleaning, do not care about Israel beyond empty rhetorics, as they always have and the rebels haven't even won yet in Syria, but it's good to know that you already have to new pan-Arabic empire ready to blitzkrieg Israel, already figured out.

[Hyde]

Russia has a good position. It let's them sort it out themselves without outside intervention. If the majority of the people are against him, they will win. If the majority of the people are not against him, they won't.

[S0NY]

Russia has a good position. It let's them sort it out themselves without outside intervention. If the majority of the people are against him, they will win. If the majority of the people are not against him, they won't.

letting the army kill people ?? is that the way to let them solve this ?
the army is always stronger then the people, because as we see on TV daily the syrian people die from tanks, weapons and heavy army forces.

[Shurik SST]

letting the army kill people ?? is that the way to let them solve this ?
the army is always stronger then the people, because as we see on TV daily the syrian people die from tanks, weapons and heavy army forces.

Must have missed all those "Free Syria Army" STR0NG1!11! videos???? When someone call themselves an army they stop being "people". Oh but I forgot, it is an Army made up of peaceful democracy activist and civilians holding signs and posters. Nevermind the PKMs and RPGs.

[Atzo]

letting the army kill people ?? is that the way to let them solve this ?
the army is always stronger then the people, because as we see on TV daily the syrian people die from tanks, weapons and heavy army forces.

As far as I have seen is not people, but armed terrorists killing government troops, image if armed terrorists starting shooting police and the military in the US. what do you think would happen, just let the police and military stand by. please don't be so naive

[DasVivo]

What's 550 million to Russia - small change - and that assumes that the Syrians would actually pay it/be in a position to pay it with the economy in shreds, the banks blocked by the west and all the lose cash heading to Beirut in a taxi...

Whilst that static figure might not be much in the overall russian economy, I imagine what it can be worth in terms of revenue for companies such as Yak, increasing the market share for Russian Arms exports in the global market (adding to the increase in jobs this can promote) and any other potential deals that may exist means its probably not as insignificant as you make it seem (if I am correct in my line of thinking atleast, people feel free to correct me otherwise)

Now the Syrian means to pay for all of this is questionable sure I would agree with that given the overall state of the country..


Assad will go down due to his inability to hold the country together. Having said that it is not just him but a complete system.
No one here wants to acknowledge that the new doctrine of R2P Responsibility to Protect is pushed heavily and somehow allows external powers to settle internal dispute. Knowing that internal disputes can be generated by many different ways and can have many different causes then the potential for war is endless.
With R2P one can find a cause to enter just about any African country as soon as elections get disputed in violent ways. But of cause such actions would be selective depending on the alignment of the troubled country.
Actually in Syria no it is a fight on local power level and on global idiological level where it is new vs the old way of running the world.
In a world where most the countries would be democratically elected one would think the reasons for war are smaller. R2P sows the seeds for new wars.

Agreed entirely, R2P is opening the window to a whole new way of doing things, I doubt the results of which have exactly been predicted by all of those whom have pushed for this new approach


Problem is that responsibility to protect somehow seems to stop when a new government is in power which then has no responsibility to protect the supporters of the old regime.
As seen in Libya.
Syria is de facto a Sunni vs the Rest civil war.
What if the Sunnis take over?
They should have a responsibility to protect the supporters of the Assad regime, the Allavites, Christians, et cetera.
Will the West intervene again on their behalf when these minorities suffer the same fate as those in Iraq?

Of course not, its old seige rules.. The ability to give in is provided early in a seige and if you choose to fight it out then once the walls are breached you can expect no quarter to be shown by those laying the siege... this is not to say I support such practices, but it seems pretty much how things have always been (Eg: Stupid and hypocritical of said R2P principle)


Be careful what you wish for.
Well they will be united with Egypt, for one thing. Maybe also Yemen, Libya, Tunisia et cetera.
Most likely Lebanon as well.
The result of the Arab spring will be Regimes of Sunni fundamentalists democratically elected and enjoying a popular support no Arab government has enjoyed since the days of Nasser.

Israeli policy with its Iran paranoia is amazingly short sighted.

While I wont criticize or comment on Israeli policy, I do agree that one needs to be careful what they wish for... Its not just imposed from above in many countries that they have these hostile sentiments, assuming that a regime change does occur you might just end up with a more legitimate and united regime extolling the same rhetoric and behaviors externally


Russia's and China's crooked interests are in the way of everything these days.

Chiefly other countries crooked interests ;)



As far as I have seen is not people, but armed terrorists killing government troops, image if armed terrorists starting shooting police and the military in the US. what do you think would happen, just let the police and military stand by. please don't be so naive

I don't know if I would call these insurgents terrorists, if I see examples where they bomb markets, indiscriminate attacks etc than I'd consider those members suspect sure but the movement itself is not a homogenous organisation and the people are simply more akin to Insurgents (funny how Insurgents in days of old and in friendly nations are okay, but others are bad... Its all messy and I dont know anymore how to even judge them) than terrorists..

I say that as someone who is rather cynical about the entire movement too, but to call them all terrorists seems far fetched and requires backing

[paulmessen]

I believe that with Russia's willingness to deal with Syrian leaders during this whole ordeal forces them to stay their course. If the current regime does not fall, they can count Syria as a blue chip in their ME foreign policy. If not, the EU is in shambles/dependent enough on Russian oil, to pass serious actions on Russia. In the short term- Syrian's leaders win:Russia gains a friendly ME country to buy their archaic military weapons. Syria's regime loses- Russia has too much oil to force effective repercussions. Long term- Syrian regime supporters (winning) continues to rule in the same way. On a loss- Russia still has oil, developing economies are still growing, and (I'd wager to bet) the EU cares more about the continent's businesses/economy to choose ethics over cheap energy..."ethics" is why the UN has survived ;-)

[themacedonian]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/hillary-clinton-un-stand-syrian-people-complicit-crackdown-212742585.html;_ylt=AhLUIWmCsu0LDPo2ByPuqOys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNsNXZxM280BG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBGUARwa2cDZmRkOGNmOWMtOWYzYi0zMWZkLThjNjMtNmIwMzU0YWJlZjQ5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyAzQyMTcwZmYwLTRjNWUtMTFlMS1iN2JmLWU1Y2VmZDI0Yzc3Mw--;_ylg=X3oDMTFvdnRqYzJoBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=

"I know that some members here are concerned that we are headed toward another Libya," Clinton said. "That is a false analogy. Syria is a unique situation that requires its own approach."

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/kv/c24701.htm

The United States formally recognized Kosovo as a sovereign and independent state on February 18, 2008. The United States considers Kosovo to be a special case that should not be seen as a precedent for other situations. The sequence and nature of events that led to Kosovo’s independence were themselves unprecedented.

http://www.europeaninstitute.org/2007120277/Winter/Spring-2008/kosovo-it-is-a-real-geopolitical-precedent.html

European leaders, closer in proximity to the potential problems in Kosovo, concluded that U.S. policy was irreversible and made a virtue of necessity, hoping to mitigate the risk of lessons other separatists might take away from Kosovo’s independence. The easiest way to avoid setting (or appearing to set) a precedent was – and is – to insist that Kosovo’s situation is unique and would therefore not apply to any other separatist efforts. The Bush administration, too, sought to limit the potential fallout of separatism by insisting that Kosovo has no parallels anywhere in the world. It is as if Washington and Brussels could remove the danger of precedent by merely declaring that it will not be a precedent.

Question is can the Clinton family be trusted or are they unique? All situations and countries are unique but the end result is the same.

[Atzo]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/hillary-clinton-un-stand-syrian-people-complicit-crackdown-212742585.html;_ylt=AhLUIWmCsu0LDPo2ByPuqOys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNsNXZxM280BG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBGUARwa2cDZmRkOGNmOWMtOWYzYi0zMWZkLThjNjMtNmIwMzU0YWJlZjQ5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyAzQyMTcwZmYwLTRjNWUtMTFlMS1iN2JmLWU1Y2VmZDI0Yzc3Mw--;_ylg=X3oDMTFvdnRqYzJoBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=

"I know that some members here are concerned that we are headed toward another Libya," Clinton said. "That is a false analogy. Syria is a unique situation that requires its own approach."

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/kv/c24701.htm

The United States formally recognized Kosovo as a sovereign and independent state on February 18, 2008. The United States considers Kosovo to be a special case that should not be seen as a precedent for other situations. The sequence and nature of events that led to Kosovo’s independence were themselves unprecedented.

http://www.europeaninstitute.org/2007120277/Winter/Spring-2008/kosovo-it-is-a-real-geopolitical-precedent.html

European leaders, closer in proximity to the potential problems in Kosovo, concluded that U.S. policy was irreversible and made a virtue of necessity, hoping to mitigate the risk of lessons other separatists might take away from Kosovo’s independence. The easiest way to avoid setting (or appearing to set) a precedent was – and is – to insist that Kosovo’s situation is unique and would therefore not apply to any other separatist efforts. The Bush administration, too, sought to limit the potential fallout of separatism by insisting that Kosovo has no parallels anywhere in the world. It is as if Washington and Brussels could remove the danger of precedent by merely declaring that it will not be a precedent.

Question is can the Clinton family be trusted or are they unique? All situations and countries are unique but the end result is the same.

Thanks for the link, whatever suits the US empire they will make a unique case about it, unfortunately for kosovo, a (unique case of course) the US have always wanted a huge military base in European especially the Balkans, Camp Bond Steel the biggest in Europe I believe, the main purpose for the Bondsteel military base is to provide security for the construction of the Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian oil pipeline (AMBO). the AMBO trans-Balkan pipeline will link up the with the corridors between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea basin, which holds close to 50 billion barrels of oil.

Other advantages for the "Independence" of kosovo, could be the proposed ABM Interception shield for Europe.

To back up my argument we have Former General Wesley Clark of the U.S. Army talks openly about the memo he saw when Bush was president, about the US Empire and its "democratic goals for the middle east" below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ

[Ordnung]

letting the army kill people ?? is that the way to let them solve this ?
the army is always stronger then the people, because as we see on TV daily the syrian people die from tanks, weapons and heavy army forces.


Do you want solve the "army of deserters" to attack the civilian population? :cantbeli:

[xav]

"We are gathered here today to end the scandalous silence of this Council," Juppe said. "We are gathered today in order for the Security Council to assume its responsibilities toward a suffering people."

Juppe said that the Arab League - whose member Morocco proposed the draft resolution - would take the lead in the proposed peace plan under which Assad would step down ahead of talks on the country's political future.

"It's for the Arab League to implement it," Juppe said. "Our responsibility is to help them by sending the Syrian regime a clear message that the international community is united behind Arab efforts."

But Russia has opposed the resolution and, along with China, vetoed an earlier proposal on Syria in October. Moscow and Beijing both criticized Western powers for using force to oust late Libyan strongman Moamer Kadhafi.

"Syria is not Libya," Juppe said. "Nothing, absolutely nothing, in this proposed resolution... can be interpreted as authorizing the use of force."
http://www.asianage.com/international/france-un-break-scandalous-silence-syria-282

[themacedonian]

Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov refused to take Clinton's telephone calls, after staying away from the UN, the specialist UN blog Inner City Press reports. (http://www.innercitypress.com/syria5lasbowl013112.html) Clinton said nothing should be read into Lavrov not taking her call, blaming the apparent snub on poor communications in Australia where Lavrov is visiting.

http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2012/02/01/qlinton-lavrov/

U.S. State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland told reporters in Washington on Monday that Ms. Clinton had been trying unsuccessfully to connect with her Russian counterpart.
Mr. Lavrov, who is on a visit to Australia, confirmed that he had failed to take Ms. Clinton's calls because he was “in the middle of my meetings with Australian partners”.

[Trinatzat]

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!


we abandoned a allie becouse we were to naive not even a year ago, we belived in your BS resolution about protecting civilians and arms embargo, so what was it, procting civilians is take massive armed side on one party of the conflict agains another till it wins, what was with the amrs embargo when france and qatar delivered weapons without critic as the liked to

what was the outcome, one party smashed the other with the help of NATO, a lot of civilinas were killed ignored as civilinas and unimportant since the supported the other side, crimes by the party allies were ignored, so what they GRAD citys and apartmant, they sayd snipers are ther, enough proof and justification i say! vigilante justice torture and executions take up till today and not seeming to stop any time near, and for us? we lost a allie huge economic buisnesses in civilian contracts and military contracts.

and now you say "c'mon lets have one more round?"

our position should be bestly discribed and should be overall as to support OUR allie on every front, block the sh1t out of any BS resolution that gets ignored anyway if the west likes to do so like in libya, and to diplomaticly say " GO F YOURSELFS!"

[Siberian wolf]

our position should be bestly discribed and should be overall as to support OUR allie on every front, block the sh1t out of any BS resolution that gets ignored anyway if the west likes to do so like in libya, and to diplomaticly say " GO F YOURSELFS!"

+1
We must clearly state that no resolution on Syria will not pass through the UN Security Council and our country will not allow any military intervention in Syria.

[Steak-Sauce]

And if some non-Western countries (yes, they do exist) give a shyte about Russia's stance and quietly sending some of their specialists to Syria? What then?

[IconOfEvi]

+1
We must clearly state that no resolution on Syria will not pass through the UN Security Council and our country will not allow any military intervention in Syria.

Okay, now you've combined two very different things.

One is a UN sanction, if such an operation was mounted, would never get past the UNSC. i.e. legitimacy

However, the latter part worries me. So when you say you won't allow an intervention...does that mean you intend to defend Assad, even if the cost is declaring war on the USA, or NATO, or whatever coalition decides to go forward with it.

[xav]

And if some non-Western countries (yes, they do exist) give a shyte about Russia's stance and quietly sending some of their specialists to Syria? What then?

Qatari SF again ?

[The Kaiser Chief]

Maybe the thing is that all that chatter about the civilian casualties in that uprising from the US and its allies sounds a bit hypocrite after killing around one million in Irak and god knows how many in Afghanistan? Another problem is that no one can verify those civilian casualites. Before K-For took control over Kosovo there were speculations of up to hundreds of thousands dead and until now we end up with approx. 6,000 Albanians and 3,000 Serbs in a place with an 80/20 population split:roll:.
Obviously it is already a full-scale civil war, where the Sunni majority is taking up arms against the more or less secular rule of Assad who belongs to the Alawite minority himself, hence may be considered an apostate anyways by some hardliners, nothing more and nothing less. If I had to choose sides from a moral standpoint (and not out of geostrategic interests) I would not be able to say who is better and who is worse.

[Xaito]

And if some non-Western countries (yes, they do exist) give a shyte about Russia's stance and quietly sending some of their specialists to Syria? What then?

And these non-Western countries would care about Syria... why?


does that mean you intend to defend Assad, even if the cost is declaring war on the USA, or NATO, or whatever coalition decides to go forward with it.
Western countries, China, Russia all play power games in the middle east.
So far Russia has been backing down while western countries have been probing and stirring in one country after another.
It should be clear that Russia will draw a line at some point - that point probably isn't Syria but we're getting closer and the game gets more dangerous.
Is it worth pushing it as far as it goes?

[Hisroyalhighness]

However, the latter part worries me. So when you say you won't allow an intervention...does that mean you intend to defend Assad, even if the cost is declaring war on the USA, or NATO, or whatever coalition decides to go forward with it.

Do you have this preconception that Russia is eager to go to war with the West? Russians love their children too much to go into a long and costly(And potentially Nuclear) Conflict. Russia won't do anything military aside from maybe sending the Admiral Kuznetsov or Peter the Great to Tratus in support or something, but overall they will express their distaste for intervention with letters, Military exercises , Sabre rattling(Deploying Iskanders, Sending Bears to buzz carriers and to probe air spaces.) and arms deals with "rouge nations".

Russia, if God Forbid, she went to war it would certainly not be over to help pissed off Mullahs in Iran nor a dictatorial pinhead in Syria.

[Steak-Sauce]

And these non-Western countries would care about Syria... why?

For the very same reason they cared for Libya.

[The Kaiser Chief]

For the very same reason they cared for Libya.

You are not talking Qatar and the Saudis, do you?

[Xaito]

For the very same reason they cared for Libya.

such as...?

[Steak-Sauce]

such as...?

I frankly don't know, that's why I'm asking. It actually took me by surprise that the Qatari SF was operating in Libya. Everyone was talking about "Western" special forces here and there, and in the end, of all countries Qatar sends their SF troopers.

So, why shouldn't they do the same with regard to Syria? And what is Russia going to do about it?

[The Kaiser Chief]

I frankly don't know, that's why I'm asking. It actually took me by surprise that the Qatari SF was operating in Libya. Everyone was talking about "Western" special forces here and there, and in the end, of all countries Qatar sends their SF troopers.

So, why shouldn't they do the same with regard to Syria? And what is Russia going to do about it?

Well, one of the first steps of the new Lybian government was the introduction of Sharia law...while in the Tunesian and Egyptian elections the islamists, who are funded by the Gulf Emirates and the Saudis have prevailed...so basically the tail (Qatar, Saudis) is wagging the dog (US + allies) on this one, since it is not in the West´s strategic interest to replace secular dictatorships with elected islamist governments

[kalerab]

Jesus, since when was Libya secular state?

[The Kaiser Chief]

Jesus, since when was Libya secular state?

Maybe not really secular, but Tunesia, Egypt and Syria were/are as secular as you can get down there. Besides Ghaddafi held the hard-liner islamist, who are now roaming free, in check...needless to say he was a terrorist and a despot, he did not fund al qaeda and co, unlike the gulf emirs...

[JCR]

Ghaddafi was well, Ghaddafi.
He changed his image more often than Madonna.
When he trolled socialists he was a good muslim, when he trolled the west he was a socialist
:D

[Hyde]

letting the army kill people ?? is that the way to let them solve this ?
the army is always stronger then the people, because as we see on TV daily the syrian people die from tanks, weapons and heavy army forces.

The army did not get up one morning and decide to go door to door to kill people. The "people" are attacking the police and army, ambushing them, and posting videos of it on youtube to brag about them murdering service members, hence it is completely understandable that the police and military will work towards restoring law and order.

[geolocator]

Russia, if God Forbid, she went to war it would certainly not be over to help pissed off Mullahs in Iran nor a dictatorial pinhead in Syria.
If there'll be a full-fledged war in Iran and Iran will be in danger to be destoyed like a counterbalance in the region there could be a situation when Russia can drop weapons embargo. The scenario was being actively discussed. In total Russia surely will not not save ayatollahs. Some time ago there was a hint about a Caspian Sea border problem. This could be easily swapped for weapons supplies if something like a real war will take place.

[Hisroyalhighness]

Analysts with Max-Security Solutions, a security consulting firm based in Israel, said Monday in The New York Times that recent Russian arms sales to Syria are worth $4 billion and that Russian business investments in Syria amount to nearly $20 billion.

A Congressional Research Service report in 2008 said the two countries had "concluded several significant arms deals."


http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/01/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html?hpt=wo_c1

[memfisa]

The army did not get up one morning and decide to go door to door to kill people. The "people" are attacking the police and army, ambushing them, and posting videos of it on youtube to brag about them murdering service members, hence it is completely understandable that the police and military will work towards restoring law and order.

You cannot intelligently reason with someone who will make judgement based only on emotional reaction. I have tried in real life. All it got me was closer to a bypass surgery

It is relieving to know there is at least one other person on this planet who shares my view of authority. Not only this i am supposed to be of this new generation, anarchist, no attention span, anti-authority, everything is owed to me suck-a$$ type..

Look to home i like to say, take a glimpse how peaceful protests are smashed with chemical weapons (sugar coating wiped off, tear gas is a chemical weapon) Imagine suddenly those protests had extremist elements, IE armed instigators amongst them, god forbid, firing rifles firebombs and RPG's at the riot police, or whatever they may be... I'm quite positive (nearly 101% infact) innocent highschool and university kids (who would be there for any number of "cool and popular" reasons they read on facebook) would be getting caught in the crossfire, and Liveleak would be littered with police brutality against completely innocent entire group of protestors... 30 seconds long of course, only showing chaos and bloodless lifeless corpse with bullet wounds

Of course, it already is littered with 30 second clips of bodies who may or may not have been involved in the fighting, may or may not have been caught in some sort of cross fire, may or may not have been systematically targeted by Syria's forces, all being passed off as Regime systematically exterminating everything and anything that moves.. We are supposed to believe the caption of the video

Maybe im living on cloud 9, but i like to think I took the reality pill back in March of 2011

[themacedonian]

The army did not get up one morning and decide to go door to door to kill people. The "people" are attacking the police and army, ambushing them, and posting videos of it on youtube to brag about them murdering service members, hence it is completely understandable that the police and military will work towards restoring law and order.

of course they do. The whole thing was planned by Assad last year he even did mass casualty preparations.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/syrian-regime-importing-snipers-for-protests/story-e6frg6so-1226254330519

He said the regime appeared to have started preparing for its bloody crackdown, which the UN estimates has cost 5400 lives since March, even as the first revolts of the Arab Spring were threatening to topple Mr Assad's fellow dictators a year ago.

Ministry colleagues told him that two Iranian warships that passed through the Suez Canal during the Egyptian uprising were loaded with weapons for use against dissidents, and offloaded at the seaport of Latakia.
"Some who saw these things being unloaded said they had incinerators, so they wouldn't need mass graves."

[JCR]

Did they unload Viagra as well so his forces could rape better?
And manuals on how to best tear out incubators from hospital wards?

Propaganda never changes.
Especially as these two warships were rather small.

[The Kaiser Chief]

of course they do. The whole thing was planned by Assad last year he even did mass casualty preparations.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/syrian-regime-importing-snipers-for-protests/story-e6frg6so-1226254330519

He said the regime appeared to have started preparing for its bloody crackdown, which the UN estimates has cost 5400 lives since March, even as the first revolts of the Arab Spring were threatening to topple Mr Assad's fellow dictators a year ago.

Ministry colleagues told him that two Iranian warships that passed through the Suez Canal during the Egyptian uprising were loaded with weapons for use against dissidents, and offloaded at the seaport of Latakia.
"Some who saw these things being unloaded said they had incinerators, so they wouldn't need mass graves."


OMG ... this Iranian incinerator thing is just too good/evil to be true rofl- what´s next? Assad had sharks deployed to public pools? You don´t really believe that, do you?

[Atlantic Friend]

our position should be bestly discribed and should be overall as to support OUR allie on every front, block the sh1t out of any BS resolution that gets ignored anyway if the west likes to do so like in libya, and to diplomaticly say " GO F YOURSELFS!"

So, besides diplomatically pouting, nothing, then? Splendid. Because Assad sure looks like he's going to be a goner soon.

[themacedonian]

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/russian-diplomat-blocking-u-n-action-in-syria-facilitated-it-in-bosnia/

Apparently because Vitaly Churkin convienced the Bosnian Serbs to yield in 1994 it is expected of him to do it again in Syria. It is expected of Russians NOT to learn of their mistakes from the past naturally.

Latest demand at the UN is for them to abstain from the vote and not to veto.

[The Kaiser Chief]

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/russian-diplomat-blocking-u-n-action-in-syria-facilitated-it-in-bosnia/

Apparently because Vitaly Churkin convienced the Bosnian Serbs to yield in 1994 it is expected of him to do it again in Syria. It is expected of Russians NOT to learn of their mistakes from the past naturally.

Latest demand at the UN is for them to abstain from the vote and not to veto.

What exactly should the Russians "learn"? Just because the US-favoured side in a civil war isn´t winning...this isn´t a valid argument.

[themacedonian]

What exactly should the Russians "learn"? Just because the US-favoured side in a civil war isn´t winning...this isn´t a valid argument.

In 1994 Russians were convienced to vote for Bosnian intevention to ensure peace, 1999 Kosovo intervention to ensure peace, to abstain from 2011 Libya to ensure peace and again in Syria now as the only
chance of piece.
While the Russians have been voting for peace someone is preparing and pursuing war one way or other, one excuse after another, one cause after another, one unique case after another. Obviously something is not right.

Maybe for a change russia should place a veto maybe peace might break out for a change.

[memfisa]

OMG ... this Iranian incinerator thing is just too good/evil to be true rofl- what´s next? Assad had sharks deployed to public pools? You don´t really believe that, do you?

I got one
KILLER BEES: Unleashed by Assad himself, into a daycare for children who are allergic to bee stings!

No no, but really, incinerators!? Double-You Tea Eff?!
Are we talking, incinerator for biological hazardous waste from hospitals and clinics, such as, used syringes, or amputated limbs, blood, or used wound dressings?

I sure hope its not suggested that crematoriums were rolling off these, limited in size, boats...


But really wouldn't a mass grave be much much easier, cheaper, faster, and use far less resources than firing up some gas powered incinerator to cook a corpse for the many hours it takes to reduce it to ash?

[Atlantic Friend]

IBut really wouldn't a mass grave be much much easier, cheaper, faster, and use far less resources than firing up some gas powered incinerator to cook a corpse for the many hours it takes to reduce it to ash?

If you want a real answer, mass graves have this annoying habit of being found. Which isn't, usually, a characteristic that endears them to dictatorial regimes engaging in mass murder.

[The Kaiser Chief]

In 1994 Russians were convienced to vote for Bosnian intevention to ensure peace, 1999 Kosovo intervention to ensure peace, to abstain from 2011 Libya to ensure peace and again in Syria now as the only
chance of piece.
While the Russians have been voting for peace someone is preparing and pursuing war one way or other, one excuse after another, one cause after another, one unique case after another. Obviously something is not right.

Maybe for a change russia should place a veto maybe peace might break out for a change.

It was certainly not the Russians fault, that Yugoslavia desintegrated in an ethno-religious civil war, as it is not Russias fault that Ghaddafi was toppled by the Benghazi Rebels, and that we have a civil war in Syria as well, where the loyalties are split again according to religious and sectarian lines. And guess what, wars happen and civil wars happen as well. There is no good, no bad, there is just a winner and a loser. Maybe You see that the Russians prefer non-interventionist policies over interventionalism since the demise of communism? Did the US intervention in all those conflicts solve any problems? Not really as you can see: the Bosnian Serbs want to join their motherland, so do the Serbs in North-Kosovo, yet they are forced to live as minorities under a foreign government. That does not look like Wilsonian self-determination to me. As for Lybia, the West seems to have supported islamist elements to gain the upper hand, while the civil war is still going on. Maybe it would have been better not to mingle in foreign affairs one does not understand.

[themacedonian]

It was certainly not the Russians fault, that Yugoslavia desintegrated in an ethno-religious civil war, as it is not Russias fault that Ghaddafi was toppled by the Benghazi Rebels, and that we have a civil war in Syria as well, where the loyalties are split again according to religious and sectarian lines. And guess what, wars happen and civil wars happen as well. There is no good, no bad, there is just a winner and a loser. Maybe You see that the Russians prefer non-interventionist policies over interventionalism since the demise of communism? Did the US intervention in all those conflicts solve any problems? Not really as you can see: the Bosnian Serbs want to join their motherland, so do the Serbs in North-Kosovo, yet they are forced to live as minorities under a foreign government. That does not look like Wilsonian self-determination to me. As for Lybia, the West seems to have supported islamist elements to gain the upper hand, while the civil war is still going on. Maybe it would have been better not to mingle in foreign affairs one does not understand.

I am not sure exactly what your point is. Are you for or against Russian veto? There have been instances where Russian vote at the UN was required and most of them have gone the opposite way to what was said prior to the vote.

Civil wars do happen but most of the time require external flow of arms to sustain them.

Personally I am russian veto to avoid another intervention but the current structure in Syria is not sustainable on the long term. Everyone knows that.

[themacedonian]

........and Russia has blood on their hands said Camron

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9050985/Syria-David-Cameron-accuses-Russia-of-shielding-those-with-blood-on-their-hands.html

[The Kaiser Chief]

........and Russia has blood on their hands said Camron

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9050985/Syria-David-Cameron-accuses-Russia-of-shielding-those-with-blood-on-their-hands.html

Camoron wants to play little satan, not to be taken serious. He should better focus on domestic issues.

Personally I am on the ground of international which states that foreign intervention in civil wars are not legitimate, at least not without the consent of the affected government. Otherwise we could declare a new war on a weekly basis. Barbara Bush was a wise 1st lady when she said that wars are not nice, but they tend to occur here and there and one has to live with that. Interventionalism on the other hand hasn´t brought any progress so far.

[DasVivo]

OMG ... this Iranian incinerator thing is just too good/evil to be true rofl- what´s next? Assad had sharks deployed to public pools? You don´t really believe that, do you?

They should have imported one of saddams infamous shredders (tm) for disposing of regime opponents, I mean he doesnt need them anymore and they certainly existed because western media reported them right?

[Trinatzat]

So, besides diplomatically pouting, nothing, then? Splendid. Because Assad sure looks like he's going to be a goner soon.

diplomaticaly blocking any legal action, thats blocking not pouting trought UN while physicaly in form of military weapons support and maybe even training make some diffrence on the ground

what will be of him, well lets lay down our cristal ball an just see

[themacedonian]

Apparently the resolution might get modified so it does no ask for Assad stepping down and to get guarantees of no intervention. Russia might yet support it by the end of the week.

[IconOfEvi]

OMG ... this Iranian incinerator thing is just too good/evil to be true rofl- what´s next? Assad had sharks deployed to public pools? You don´t really believe that, do you?

Impossible, only the Jews have the power to deploy animals like sharks as offensive weapons

[The Kaiser Chief]

So what do have so far? Incinerators and shredders for political opponents, sharks for public pools (I forgot to add the laser canons, it´s obviously sharks with laser canons), african bees for the kindergarten...maybe Assad even has a dwarven double, Mini Baschar? And in case this isn´t enough to intimidate the population he has already threatened to introduce the American health care system, this is just too much if you ask me.

[JCR]

I think we should threaten Assad that if he doesn't stop, Syria will join the Euro Zone, effective immidiately

[cem40]

I think we should threaten Assad that if he doesn't stop, Syria will join the Euro Zone, effective immidiately

Good one :)

[Hisroyalhighness]

Why Russia protects Syria's Assad
(http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/02/opinion/treisman-russia-syria/index.html?hpt=wo_c2)
Western commentators typically attribute such behavior to Putin's personal paranoia or to attempts to rekindle the nation's wounded pride and assert Russia's superpower status. Look a little closer, however, and Russia's actions seem motivated more by calculated -- albeit sometimes miscalculated -- realpolitik than by psychological impulses.
First, strategic interests are at stake. In Tartus, Syria hosts the sole remaining Russian naval base on the Mediterranean, currently being refurbished (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/02/russia-syria-civil-war-dagestan) by 600 Russian technicians after long disuse. To have to give up this Middle Eastern beachhead would be a shame, as far as the Russians are concerned.
Second, although limited, Russia has real commercial interests (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0119/Why-Russia-is-willing-to-sell-arms-to-Syria) in Syria. Contracts to sell arms to Damascus -- both those signed and under negotiation -- total $5 billion. Having lost $13 billion due to international sanctions on Iran and $4.5 billion in canceled contracts to Libya, Russia's defense industry is already reeling. Besides arms exports, Russian companies have major investments in Syria's infrastructure, energy, and tourism sectors, worth $19.4 billion in 2009.
Counting pennies while protesters are gunned down may seem cynical. "How many people need to die before the consciences of world capitals are stirred?" Britain's Foreign Secretary William Hague demanded on January 31, clearly thinking of Moscow.
But Russian policymakers have developed an allergy to Western leaders' moralizing. Just as it was pressing al-Assad to resign, the U.S. State Department quietly lifted a ban on military aid to the Karimov dictatorship in Uzbekistan, which had butchered its own protesters (http://articles.cnn.com/2005-05-15/world/uzbekistan_1_uzbek-troops-andijan-uzbek-soldiers?_s=PM:WORLD) a few years earlier. (Uzbekistan is important for supply lines to NATO troops in Afghanistan.) Neither did Washington press the king of Bahrain -- where the U.S. Navy has a port -- to step down after he crushed popular demonstrations in his capital.
From Washington, the West's recent interventions in the Middle East seem unplanned and responsive, with modest goals. From Moscow, it is easy to see a pattern in the repeated use of force to overthrow leaders -- from Afghanistan and Iraq to Libya -- and diplomatic pressure to dislodge others -- in Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen. President George W. Bush may be gone, but his "Freedom Agenda," it sometimes seems, lives on.
Libya is a particularly sore point. Russia's leaders felt they were tricked into supporting a resolution to protect civilians, only to see it used to provide cover for airstrikes to overthrow Moammar Gadhafi. Vague phrases like "further measures" now set off alarm bells.
Beyond commercial and strategic interests, the Kremlin's greatest fear is of instability in the Middle East and Central Asia. Russian policymakers already worry about the northward spread of Islamic militancy and opium if the departure of NATO from Afghanistan leads to Taliban resurgence and state collapse.

[The Kaiser Chief]

Impossible, only the Jews have the power to deploy animals like sharks as offensive weapons

You are right! And in case the sharks die while on duty there will be gefillte fish for eveyone! Mazeltov!

[kalerab]

3.35pm: The specialist UN blog Inner City Press has published the new watered down version of a resolution on Syria.

Diplomats hope the new version will be backed by Russia.

The most interesting bits are what has been removed the earlier Arab-Western resolution.

The deleted sections include this key passage:

a) formation of a national unity government;

b) delegation by the President of Syria of his full authority to his Deputy to fully cooperate with the national unity government in order to empower it to perform its duties in the transitional period; and

c) transparent and free elections under Arab and international supervision;]


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/feb/02/egypt-port-said-football-dsaster-live-updates

Well, this is useless.

And here is the cropped version of resolution.

http://www.innercitypress.com/SCv3syria020212icp.html

Basicly it says nothing else than "pretty please Bashar, do as Arab League says".

[Nyusu]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/feb/02/egypt-port-said-football-dsaster-live-updates

Well, this is useless.

And here is the cropped version of resolution.

http://www.innercitypress.com/SCv3syria020212icp.html

Basicly it says nothing else than "pretty please Bashar, do as Arab League says".

Well at least it doesnt say anymore "Step down, because small part of population doesnt likes you. Who cares that majority is ok with you..."

[MikeMonolith]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/feb/02/egypt-port-said-football-dsaster-live-updates

Well, this is useless.

And here is the cropped version of resolution.

http://www.innercitypress.com/SCv3syria020212icp.html

Basicly it says nothing else than "pretty please Bashar, do as Arab League says".


which we all knew it would say.

im sorry. but if china/russia gets in the way. go around them. and do it anyway.
at this point it is obstructionism for the sake of obstructionism.

[Hisroyalhighness]

at this point it is obstructionism for the sake of obstructionism.

Why Russia protects Syria's Assad
(http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/02/opinion/treisman-russia-syria/index.html?hpt=wo_c2)

............

[kalerab]

Well at least it doesnt say anymore "Step down, because small part of population doesnt likes you. Who cares that majority is ok with you..."

Gee, good that you know who exactly does majority of population supports. I mean, in situation like this it cant be that hard to do some opinion poll. Worst case scenario, we can always pull our numbers from hat.

[Nyusu]

Gee, good that you know who exactly does majority of population supports. I mean, in situation like this it cant be that hard to do some opinion poll. Worst case scenario, we can always pull our numbers from hat.

Well you dont know either. Neither does UN. But they still call for Assad to step down, while only small part of Syrian population is openly against him.

[kalerab]

Well you dont know either. Neither does UN. But they still call for Assad to step down, while only small part of Syrian population is openly against him.

I never claimed I do. I do know that population is devided and started process which right now may seem violent but is nothing in comparision to what will come if situation will escalate further. We´ve seen that in Lebanon and war lasted there for 17 years. Bashar in power guided country to civil war, it is only natural to expect that he cannot do any better further on. There are several options - A, he will crush opposition with tens of thousands dieing in process and parts of country will be wrecked just like during MB uprising. B, opposition will push him out of Damascus and take control of country with tens of thousands dieing in process and parts of country will be wrecked. And most plausible scenario - C, insurgency and rebellion will continue, security forces will be disintegrating more and more with security forces beeing unable to control border area from which weapons will be smuggled and all elements of Syrian population will be armed and start fighting for control, power or mere survival. State forces will eventually be weaker than militias and Lebanon scenario will repeat itself.
All of these options will happen if he stays in power. On other hand if he´d do what AL asks him to do transition would be messy but bearable in comparision, Yemen with current weak opposition-coalition government is still better on than with Saleh in power. If UN peacekeeper troops would be deployed in Syria even better results could be archieved. However none of this will happen with current regime staying in power and declaring some reforms that no one believes in, not even Bashar supporters.

[Nyusu]

All of these options will happen if he stays in power. On other hand if he´d do what AL asks him to do transition would be messy but bearable in comparision, Yemen with current weak opposition-coalition government is still better on than with Saleh in power. If UN peacekeeper troops would be deployed in Syria even better results could be archieved. However none of this will happen with current regime staying in power and declaring some reforms that no one believes in, not even Bashar supporters.
Or it will go Iraq style with a lot more dead people. Dont forget this possibility. And considering problems between different groups in Syria, this scenario looks very realistic. I dont believe in Syria magically becoming peaceful once Assad steps down. It doesnt work that way. It didn't work for neither Egypt nor Libya, and certainly it didnt work for Iraq.

[Steak-Sauce]

Well you dont know either. Neither does UN. But they still call for Assad to step down, while only small part of Syrian population is openly against him.

An interesting choice of words, if I may add. The "visible" part of protesting (and fighting) Syrians may be a small figure to outside observers. On the other hand though, one has to wonder how many Syrians are "secretly" protesting against the Assad regime, out of fear for reprisal by government troops and police units.

If you openly voice your opinion against the government, you stand out. A lot of people (not necessarily limited to Syria of course) think it's a better idea to shut up, stay low and hope for the best.

[kalerab]

Putting aside fact that in Iraq regime change was forced by an external factor and not internal Syria is already on the Iraqi or Lebanese path. If we dont want it to explode and take with it whole Levant region we have to think how to stop escalating violence. For that cooperation of all elements of Syrian society is a must. However as in Libya where Gaddafi removal from power was non-negotiable condition for both Gaddafi administration and rebel administration, in Syria same can be applied to Bashar staying in power. Right now we have undeniable fact which is that as long as Bashar continue with his crack-down nothing will change since it didnt change months ago when opposition armed movement was much less of a threat. Therefore question on table is what will stop this violence and status quo surely cannot be your answer.

PS: If you look post you quoted you will find that I never claimed that the moment Bashar steps down as a president suddenly all will be over and flower will blossom on streets of every city with Alawites, Druze, Sunnis, Christian and Kurds dancing on the streets of Damascus with unicorns watching over them. Current Yemeni transition can be described as messy and there 6 provinces are in hands of shia rebels and Zinjibar in hands of Ansar al-Sharia. However with army withdrawing from Taiz and Sanaa (lets forget for moment on republican guard headed by Saleh jr.) it can concentrate on fighting real enemy what is certainly better than what was there half a year ago.

[themacedonian]

If that new resolution gets voted in that is considered a progress from the current status quo. Further more any multi party establishment in Syria will affect Iran politics.

[Siberian wolf]

MOSCOW, Feb. 3 (Xinhua) -- Russia would not support the updated version of the West-Arab draft resolution on Syria as it still fails to take into account Moscow's principal considerations, the Foreign Ministry said Friday.
"We have received the text (of the revised draft). Although some of our concerns have been considered, nevertheless, this is not enough for us to support it," said Deputy Foreign Minister Gennadi Gatilov, quoted by Interfax news agency as saying.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-02/04/c_122654895.htm


Russia has threatened to veto a UN Security Council resolution on Syria if it is put to a vote on Friday, diplomats say.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16865057