View Full Version : Four dead after Israeli helicopters fire at a car in Gaza
This is a continuation of the Israeli response to last weeks bus bombing. We are taking them out one by one.
I'm curious as how to the Palestinians will retaliote and more important when and where ?
Well I guess busses enough in Israel
They could try and attack military targets like they should but as you said yourself, they will attack civilians.
budanski
08-24-2003, 05:18 PM
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0078788/AU20_1_01.jpg
"I love the smell of burnt terrorists in the morning!"
martinexsquaddie
08-24-2003, 05:20 PM
so the smiteing goes on :(
the plan seems to be continue fighting until there is no one left alive except President Arafat Primeminister Sharon and his pet tortoise jim
There is a security fence been built around the West Bank. Hopefully this will put an end to suicied attacks and the Israeli response which follows. The fence which is around the Gaza strip has proven to be very effective. The problem is the Arabs in the Gaza strip have started to use rockets and mortars in order to attack Israeli civilians outside the fence. When the security fence around the West Bank will be finished the same will happen there.
lefador1
08-24-2003, 06:50 PM
There is a security fence been built around the West Bank. Hopefully this will put an end to suicied attacks and the Israeli response which follows. The fence which is around the Gaza strip has proven to be very effective. The problem is the Arabs in the Gaza strip have started to use rockets and mortars in order to attack Israeli civilians outside the fence. When the security fence around the West Bank will be finished the same will happen there.
Structures of over 20ft in height and made out of reinforced concrete are not called "fences" they are called "walls"
There is a security fence been built around the West Bank. Hopefully this will put an end to suicied attacks and the Israeli response which follows. The fence which is around the Gaza strip has proven to be very effective. The problem is the Arabs in the Gaza strip have started to use rockets and mortars in order to attack Israeli civilians outside the fence. When the security fence around the West Bank will be finished the same will happen there.
Sounds an awfull lot like the Berlin wall imho, and that was something that never worked either.
lefador1 wrote: "Structures of over 20ft in height and made out of reinforced concrete are not called "fences" they are called "walls"
Yes, a very small portion of the barrier is a concrete wall. This is only in parts which are near roads, sadly the only thing which can stop the Arabs from firing at Israeli cars passing near the barrier is a concrete wall. Not long ago a family drivring back from a wedding was shot at from the West Bank while they were driving in Israel itself. A 5 year old girl who was in the car died of wounds she sustained. Most of the barrier been built is a fence. I don't know where you get your information, probably from an Arab propagandists.
usa320
08-24-2003, 07:33 PM
"I love the smell of burnt terrorists in the morning!"
Breakfast is served rofl
Good...serves those arseholes right...
I wish they would just kill Araft off...hes the only thing standing in the way of a Palestinian crackdown on weapons.
Kriz wrote: "Sounds an awfull lot like the Berlin wall imho, and that was something that never worked either."
The Berlin wall was built to separate people who were of the same nation (Germany). This barrier is built to separate two different nations (Israelis and Arabs). And I don't recall any Western or Eastern Germans blowing one of each others caffes, buses or markets with suicied bombers.
lefador1
08-24-2003, 07:39 PM
I don't know where you get your information, probably from an Arab propagandists.
I would hardly name outlets like the BBC Arab propagandists. But by all means keep it up.... rofl
lefador1
08-24-2003, 07:40 PM
Kriz wrote: "Sounds an awfull lot like the Berlin wall imho, and that was something that never worked either."
The Berlin wall was built to separate people who were of the same nation (Germany). This barrier is built to separate two different nations (Israelis and Arabs). And I don't recall any Western or Eastern Germans blowing one of each others caffes, buses or markets with suicied bombers.
Or raining hellfires from helicopters...
usa320
08-24-2003, 07:43 PM
would hardly name outlets like the BBC Arab propagandists
No, we leave the arab propaganda to CNN. rofl
Tane Angle: "First off, I disagree with the security fences construction. Having said that, there is a major difference between the security fence and the the Berlin wall: the Berlin Wall was made to keep people in, the security fence is being made to keep people out. Also, the Israelis probably don't have to worry too much about the guards defecting and running over the wall to freedom on the other side, though I could be wrong. Have a good one, and just some thoughts..."
You are correct, there is no chance guards would go to the Arab side of the barrier. Unless they want to end up like the two Israeli soldiers who were lynched in Ramallah.
EvanL
08-24-2003, 07:46 PM
There are other options to retaliation against the palestinians then bombing them further back in time than they already are. Thats what the terrorists want. They want more excuses to keep attacking Israel, and with Israel attacking like that it makes the palestinian people (not the terrorists) hate israel. It is possible for the two countries to co-exist peacefully, but neither side is willing enough to do it.
"I would hardly name outlets like the BBC Arab propagandists. But by all means keep it up.... "
The BBC is one of the most bias news networks you can get. After watching them I thought BBC stood for Baghdad Broadcasting (before Sadam was taken out of power).
EvanL
08-24-2003, 07:58 PM
So your saying Israeli Media is alot less biased? Kiss our arses man.
"Or raining hellfires from helicopters..."
You forgot to add the hellfires which are been rained are raining on terrorists who pose a threat to Israeli civilians.
"So your saying Israeli Media is alot less biased? Kiss our arses man."
I never said that. Your puting words in my mouth.
"There are other options to retaliation against the palestinians then bombing them further back in time than they already are. Thats what the terrorists want. They want more excuses to keep attacking Israel, and with Israel attacking like that it makes the palestinian people (not the terrorists) hate israel. It is possible for the two countries to co-exist peacefully, but neither side is willing enough to do it."
I don't know if you heared but last week a bus was blown up and over 20 people were killed, this without any provokation from the side of Israel as Israel was following the cease-fire agreement. One of the objectives of the bombing was to stop the cease-fire, and it worked. "There are other options to retaliation against the palestinians then bombing them further back in time than they already are." What are you talking about? We only attack terrorist targets from the air (not like the Americans who carpet bombed Afghanistan while trying to get the terrorists). If you have other options to retaliation i'm all ears.
EvanL
08-24-2003, 08:25 PM
Yeh you attack terrorist targets that happen to be situated in heavily populated civillian areas with for the most ppart disregard for palestinian civillians lives. And like i said, teh terrorist groups I.e. hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, are tryingto provoke israel into attacking more targets in the hopes they will kill civillians so that they can gain support from the palestinian civillians to keep attacking israel.
EvanL
08-24-2003, 08:34 PM
You are not understanding my words. I can get my israeli friend to translate into hebrew for you if it will help you to understand my point?
ken?
You are not understanding my words. I can get my israeli friend to translate into hebrew for you if it will help you to understand my point?
ken?
hooly ****...i am soory..i did't read this like i should....now i am understanding you'r point....ok soory again.
:oops: :oops:
"Yeh you attack terrorist targets that happen to be situated in heavily populated civillian areas with for the most ppart disregard for palestinian civillians lives." Have you been to the territorys? The citys which are in the territorys are a perfect place for civilian casualty in time of war, very crowded and heavily populated. The terrorists don't "happen to be situated in heavily populated civillian areas." That's simply how it is. The only reason we are using helicopters to kill them and not bombers loaded with napalms is the fact that we are afraid of civilian casualtys. We even reduce the amount of explosives in the hellfire missile as to reduce chances of civilian casualtys even though it makes the chances of terrorists surviving the attack biger. In war civillian can get killed unintentionly. In the Americans war in Iraq thousand of Iraqis were killed in US bombings of military targets, does that mean the US disregard the lifes of civillians?! Of course not! We even know the US went out of it's way so that Iraqis wouldn't get hurt.
StarvingStudent47
08-24-2003, 08:52 PM
I don't know where you get your information, probably from an Arab propagandists.
I would hardly name outlets like the BBC Arab propagandists. But by all means keep it up.... rofl
Actually, I would. And so would these people, who have done an excellent job of documenting the BBC's double standards regarding their reporting of Israeli issues:
http://www.BBCwatch.com
EvanL
08-24-2003, 09:06 PM
gever ata chushev sheani amerikai aval ani bemet kanadi... az stum ta-pe shelcha
gever ata chushev sheani amerikai aval ani bemet kanadi... az stum ta-pe shelcha
rofl rofl rofl
I don't see how you been Canadian has any relevance to the debate...
EvanL
08-24-2003, 09:11 PM
because he was conversing with me as if i was an american.
EvanLloyd,
You still haven't given me any alternatives to Israels current policy towards the Arabs.
usa320
08-24-2003, 09:28 PM
The important thing here is that a few terrorist bitches wont be blowing up any buses...
Gun Camera Footage from the AH-1 helicopter:
http://www.x-plane.org/users/usa320/pwnedFLIR.jpg
rofl rofl rofl rofl
OWNED!
All four of the dead were Hamas activists. The main target was Ahmed Shtwie who was responsible for coordination between the Hamas leadership in Gaza and the leadership in the West Bank. Two other men who were in the car with him were would be suicied bombers who meat Shtwie in order to get there explosive belts.
lefador1
08-24-2003, 10:17 PM
"I would hardly name outlets like the BBC Arab propagandists. But by all means keep it up.... "
The BBC is one of the most bias news networks you can get. After watching them I thought BBC stood for Baghdad Broadcasting (before Sadam was taken out of power).
I guess the NYTimes is also biased, as it is Der Spiegel, The Guardian and The Economist, do not forget Le Figaro, El Pais, the CBC, heck I even check Ha'aretz. If anything is that I do not check any arabic news source in a semi daily issues. Please do not patronize me I am well aware of try to get most sides of any news, I detest opinion oriented "news" outlets and I am aware that there are no "unbiased" news sources. But please trying to point out the bias of a news source by using a website that it is equally biased is just ridiculous.
"I guess the NYTimes is also biased, as it is Der Spiegel, The Guardian and The Economist, do not forget Le Figaro, El Pais, the CBC, heck I even check Ha'aretz. If anything is that I do not check any arabic news source in a semi daily issues. Please do not patronize me I am well aware of try to get most sides of any news, I detest opinion oriented "news" outlets and I am aware that there are no "unbiased" news sources. But please trying to point out the bias of a news source by using a website that it is equally biased is just ridiculous.
I don't know about the other names you brought as an example but i certainly know the Ha'aretz is a leftist bised newspaper which strongly opposes to the barrier been built.
Here is unbiased report over the fence been built:
http://search.cnn.com/cnn/redir?source=cnn&errorFlag=0&requestId=36898&clickedItemRank=6&userQuery=security+fence&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fcnn.com%2F2003%2FWORLD%2Fmeast%2F07%2F03%2Fwest.bank.fence%2Findex.html
Seiyuuki
08-25-2003, 12:01 AM
ALL MEDIAS ARE BIAS TOWARD ONE IDEOLOGY OR ANOTHER!!!
StarvingStudent47
08-25-2003, 12:33 AM
Yeah, but at least that CNN article presents BOTH what supporters say about the fence and what opposition says. British news outlets (such as the BBC, The Guardian, and *******) very often quote Palestinian Authority statements as fact, without even printing an Israeli government statement to counter-balance it. http://www.BBCwatch.com does a good job of showing how the BBC has done this on countless occasions.
Yeah, but at least that CNN article presents BOTH what supporters say about the fence and what opposition says. British news outlets (such as the BBC, The Guardian, and *******) very often quote Palestinian Authority statements as fact, without even printing an Israeli government statement to counter-balance it. http://www.BBCwatch.com does a good job of showing how the BBC has done this on countless occasions.
Yeah like CNN, FOX and all the other American tv channels and newspapers also showed the Iraq point of view (except that silly information minister) of the current war ;)
Wake up, all news is biased the only thing you have to do is check more sources and then decide for yourself what seems true and what seems made up.
Smintjes
08-25-2003, 05:15 AM
The BBC is one of the most bias news networks you can get. After watching them I thought BBC stood for Baghdad Broadcasting (before Sadam was taken out of power).
That has got to be the most stupid remark I've read here for a long time. I'd take BBC News coverage over any and all American news agencies.
lefador1
08-25-2003, 05:33 AM
The BBC is one of the most bias news networks you can get. After watching them I thought BBC stood for Baghdad Broadcasting (before Sadam was taken out of power).
That has got to be the most stupid remark I've read here for a long time. I'd take BBC News coverage over any and all American news agencies.
LOL It gets even better, in order to accuse BBC of bias they give a site such as BBCWatch.com that contains reports by people like:
Trevor Asserson is a UK solicitor based in London. He is a partner in an international law firm. He was called to the Israeli Bar in 1992.
Hum... jeez I wonder if he is biased, of course they have ot open their reports with disclaimers such as: This report expresses the personal views of the authors.
Well slap me and call me sherly so an organization is accused of bias by using a biased report? The "report" is laughable at best...
:cantbeli:
Steve Andrews
08-25-2003, 11:17 AM
How do the Israelis get their intelligence as to who's in the car and where it is?
They seem to be very good at this helo-car missile thing.
Steve Andrews wrote:
"How do the Israelis get their intelligence as to who's in the car and where it is?
They seem to be very good at this helo-car missile thing."
It's quite simple, most of the information comes from collaborators within the terrorist organization. We also use unmanned aerial vehicles in order to follow the location of the target.
American aid covers about 20% of the Israeli defense budget, so what would happen if that amount would not be available? Would Israel have to rely more on diplomacy instead of force? Or is it a necessity for keeping Israel free and the economy strong?
He219
08-25-2003, 12:59 PM
Actually, NPR did a report on the matter recently. They concluded that the United States need no longer be surrogate to the Israeli State and concluded that for at least the last five years Israel has had all necessary resources to defend it from any realistic military threat.
Just think what the US Taxpayer could do with that kind of dividend....
Actually, there is a very prospective situation in the ME. Israel has a very developed economy and financial system and it's Arab neighbours oil, gas and labour in abundance. If people would just get down and start using those assets instead of killing and hating each other there would be no limits to the possibilities. That's why it would be so important to get Iraq back on track to show the whole region there is another way.
StarvingStudent47
08-25-2003, 01:26 PM
LOL It gets even better, in order to accuse BBC of bias they give a site such as BBCWatch.com that contains reports by people like:
Trevor Asserson is a UK solicitor based in London. He is a partner in an international law firm. He was called to the Israeli Bar in 1992.
Hum... jeez I wonder if he is biased, of course they have ot open their reports with disclaimers such as: This report expresses the personal views of the authors.
Well slap me and call me sherly so an organization is accused of bias by using a biased report? The "report" is laughable at best...
:cantbeli:
So do you believe the quotes were forged? Or what? I watch the BBC news frequently, and the allegations the reports make (not using the term "terrorists" for Hamas; quoting Palestinian Authority press releases as fact without mentioning Israeli statements; etc) are pretty accurate.
If you're going to dismiss it, dismiss it for concrete reasons. Say WHY the report is inaccurate. Don't just say "I don't trust any author who is a British citizen who has worked with Israel through his international law firm."
Spine
08-25-2003, 01:51 PM
This whole issue is so rooted in hate, and events going back to 1948 and beyond, not just the past few years.
Both sides allow themselves to be manipulated by fanatical pigs, and both sides have killed too many innocents of the other side. Not like it effects me much though, aside from the constant B.S. of it all.
it's very very sad that you comare israel to the terorist's...very very sad...it's like comparing usa with al quida.
:cantbeli:
UoUo...get real and drop those pink colored patriot-glasses...
Spine
08-25-2003, 02:52 PM
I'm not comparing Israel to terrorists. I think both sides are manipulated by pigs, Arafat and Sharon are both pigs, just different. Neither side is 'right', it's not that simple.
To Haiw and Spine,
I myself don't see the situation in black and white, it is gray but the Arabs are much more grayer then us, This is how i see it. I don't understand why people even compare Shron to Arafat. Arafat was and still is a terrorist and Shron has fought Terrorism most of his life.
He219
08-25-2003, 03:27 PM
He said no such thing, UoUo!
Spine was pointing out the self-intersted manipulation of people on both sides that promotes the stagnation of the current situation at hand.
January 23, 2002
COMMENTARY
By YOSSI KLEIN HALEVI, Yossi Klein Halevi is the Israel correspondent for the New Republic and a senior writer for the Jerusalem Report.
JERUSALEM--There is no cycle of violence.
One side has religious fanatics who are violent and hateful but discredited by the mainstream public and repudiated by most of its religious leaders. The other side has religious fanatics who are violent and hateful and celebrated by the mainstream as holy men.
One side is ready to compromise for peace and has abandoned its dream of complete possession of the contested land. The other side insists on absolute ownership of the land. One side is prepared to stop arguing about history and give precedence to the future. The other side is still fighting medieval wars against infidels.
One side has painfully concluded that both sides in this decades-long conflict have inflicted and suffered injustices. The other side believes that only it has suffered injustice and attributes all wrongs to its enemy.
One side believes that this is a tragic conflict between two legitimate national movements. The other side believes this is a conflict between native sons and foreign interlopers.
I do have a question; please keep an open mind as it is merely an item for discussion and not persecution:
Sharon campaigned on a Political Platform of 'Security for Israel'. He then visited (http://www.spectacle.org/1100/israel2.html) the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount and stoked Arab sentiments with his politically and religiously insesitive act. With this we also saw the beginning of the Second Intifadah. Does Israel now feel more secure?
Conversely, does building a greater divide lead you to believe that the future will be better, safer?
http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20photo%20negatives/2003%20news%20phot%20negatives/August/L_128a.JPEG
Two Israeli Orthodox Jews guarded by an Israeli policeman walking in the court of Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, in defiance (http://middleeastinfo.org/article3177.html) to the disapproval of the Islamic Waqf Authority and a new provocation of Muslims.
He219,
You just made my point stronger, I don't see how jews visiting the Temple Mount is considered "provocation" while Muslim Arabs throw stones at Jewish worshipers who pray at the Western Wall and also attack security personel every few months. And all of this is done from the high ground of the Temple Mount. The Temple Mount is holy to Jews as well as to Muslims (it has been a holy site to Jews long before the founder of Islam was even born). Yet Muslim object to Jews visiting the Temple Mount, I wonder what the world would say if we wouldn't let Muslims pray on the Temple Mount...
Shrons visit had nothing to do with the current violence, it is just a lame excuse the Arabs use to cover the fact that the Intifada was planed by the Palestinian authority after israel rejected the Arabs demand for the "right of return" and the collapse of the Camp David peace talks. All the Arabs needed was an excuse and they got it with Sharons visit.
He219
08-25-2003, 04:14 PM
m:
First, I referenced a link that indicated the Waqf Authority had no objections in principle to Jews visiting a site sacred to THREE religions.
Second, Sharon's visit and eventual election 'also' coinincides with the start of the Second Intifadah. You are aware of the distrust Palestinians have for Sharon especially relating to the massacres in Lebanon.
Last, I would like to hear your answer to my question. Do you feel more secure?
;)
No hard feelings, at least on my part.....
As long as the IDF is doing it's job like it's supposed to, i will feel much safer. It's not as if the Arabs didn't attack israelis before the current Intifadah. Also i must correct you, it was the current Intifadah which brought Sharon to power, not the opposite. The elections didn't "coincide" with the start of the Intifadah. It was some time after the Intifadah started and israelis got sick been the Arabs punch bag. If the Arabs have such strong feelings about Sharons part in Sabra and Shatila massacre(which was carried out by Christian Arabs), they should overcome them. After all we overcame our feelings towards Arafat in the Oslo agreement, unfortunately he still continued his career of Terrorism. By the way when a few hundred Arabs stand in your way and threaten to kill you if you walk into the Temple Mount just because your Jewish that's objecting to Jews visiting the the Temple Mount (no matter what the Waqf said).
He219
08-25-2003, 05:41 PM
Also i must correct you, it was the current Intifadah which brought Sharon to power
BS
Sharon's visit on September 28, 2000, certainly served to aggrivate the already tense situation. Notice that I always refer to the visit and the start of the Second Intifadah with specific description.
Israeli refusal for a Right of Palestinian Return torpedoed the final phase of the Camp David negotiations in the Summer of 2000. The Second Intifadah is arguably assumed to have started around late September 2000.
If you are attempting to argue the facts, then you are referencing a matter of days (http://www.jewishlouisville.org/news/sharon.shtml) and precursers in a futile attempt to invalidate the self-evident. Check the link if you don't believe me.
Also, the IDF is a defense force. You should not hide behind those soldiers in a pursuit of a political agenda. The armed forces may defend Israeli citizens, but certainly do not dictate political policy. Do you feel Safer now than in the Summer of 2000?
http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=404175
An Israeli security guard walks next to a cement-block wall dividing the east Jerusalem side of Abu Dis from the West Bank as a bulldozer heads to a nearby construction site of a barrier Israel is building in the West Bank, Monday Aug. 25, 2003. The 595-kilometer (370 mile) barrier, which has been criticized by the Palestinians and the United States, is about one-forth finished, and sections north and south of Jerusalem have already been completed. (AP Photo/ Oded Balilty)
Spine
08-25-2003, 06:17 PM
As I recall, Sharon had a phalanx of pushy body guards bowling through the crowd at the temple that day. The protests that broke out there were met with bullets, and that was the start of the current intefada.
I am sorry but the only reason Sharon was elected was because of the Intifada, this is not BS but the truth.
"Sharon's visit on September 28, 2000, certainly served to aggrivate the already tense situation. Notice that I always refer to the visit and the start of the Second Intifadah with specific description."
The Intifada would have broken out whether Shron visited the Temple Mount or not. You yourself have writen it was an already tense situation. And as i said before the Intifada was already planed by the Arabs after the Camp David peace talks had failed in the summer of that year.
"Israeli refusal for a Right of Palestinian Return torpedoed the final phase of the Camp David negotiations in the Summer of 2000. The Second Intifadah is arguably assumed to have started around late September 2000."
Has it crossed your mined that the Arabs were the ones who "torpedoed" the peace talks by giving a demand which was totally unacceptable. The Israeli government made it clear from the start that such a demand wouldn't be accepted since it allows the return of Arab refugees and there familys to were they once lived, this includind places in Israel itself and not just in the territorys which would become a Palestinian state. This would turn them into Israeli citizens. A wave of Arabs coming back to Israel would cause a demographic threat, destroying Israel as a Jewish state and in the end destroy Israel completely. If they would have a state of there own why would they have to live in Israel itself?! The "right of return" was already determined in the 1948 War of Independence.
"Also, the IDF is a defense force. You should not hide behind those soldiers in a pursuit of a political agenda. The armed forces may defend Israeli citizens, but certainly do not dictate political policy."
Wow as if I didn't know that. Actually if the political agenda is backed by the people of Israel and is in the best interests of the Israeli people (including there safety) then we can use our army.
Do you feel Safer now than in the Summer of 2000?
I don't feel sfer nor do i feel less safe, since the Arabs strategy of killing Israeli civilians has always been in affect. The only difference is that in the past three years they have expanded the number of attacks.
He219
08-25-2003, 06:53 PM
Some corrections:
Israeli Knesset Member Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount with a six member Likud Knesset delegation. Responding to intelligence reports, the group was escorted by 1,000 police officers.
The delegation stopped at Solomon's Stables for a briefing on the site. A group of demonstrators was pushed back by police. One Palestinian boy was lightly wounded and given medical attention.
As the delegation was leaving, dozens of Palestinians ran after them. As they departed, a crowd of one thousand Palestinians led by the Arab Knesset members threw stones at the police surrounding the delegation members. Thirty policemen and four Palestinians were lightly wounded.
Four hours after the visit, the Palestinian Authority's official Voice of Palestine radio broadcast a statement by Yasser Arafat declaring the visit to be "a serious step against Muslim holy places." Arafat called upon the Arab and Islamic world to "move immediately to stop these aggressions and Israeli practices against holy Jerusalem."
The next day, Friday Sept. 29th, 2000, immediately after Friday prayers in the mosques, hundreds of Palestinians attempted to overpower Israeli Police and Border Guards at the Western Wall Plaza where Jewish worshippers prayed prior to Rosh Hashanah.
Rocks were thrown from the platform of the mosque compound onto Jewish worshippers in the plaza below. When the rioters entered the Temple Mount, Israeli Border Guards opened fire with rubber bullets.
In the initial outbreak of violence, four Palestinians were killed and over 100 were wounded in clashes with Israeli police.
Over the weekend, 58 Palestinians were arrested for throwing rocks and firebombs throughout Jerusalem and 60 policemen were injured.
Widespread violence erupted more than 24 hours after the visit.
I leave it to your interpretation if Sharon's visit inflamed tensions and led to the escalating violence of the Second Intifadah........
Spine,
"As I recall, Sharon had a phalanx of pushy body guards bowling through the crowd at the temple that day."
What did you expect of him? Did you expect of him not to go with body guards? If a regular Jew can't walk into the Temple Mount without some protection then a Man with status like Sharons could?!
"The protests that broke out there were met with bullets, and that was the start of the current intefada."
I remember these "protests". Arabs protesting blocked roads, destroyed property and attacked people for been Jewish. These protesters almost killed a few people.
"I leave it to your interpretation if Sharon's visit inflamed tensions and led to the escalating violence of the Second Intifadah........"
As I said before the visit was used as an excuse for what was an already planed Intifada.
He219
08-25-2003, 07:16 PM
m:
The description of events surrounding Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount timed with the start of widespread violence within 24 hours of that event give strong evidence as to the start of the Second Intifadah. Sharon was elected after he visited the temple mount on a platform of 'security'.
Do you have evidence that the "Intifada was already planed by the Arabs"? Sharon's visit certainly seems more than coincidental.
Has it crossed your mined that the Arabs were the ones who "torpedoed" the peace talks by giving a demand which was totally unacceptable
Unacceptable to your racist demographics. Integration is the only way for lasting Peace. The fact is that you do not see yourself as an equal to the Arab. Instead you promote separation, anexation and apartheid.
The way I see it is that both Arafat and Sharon need to be removed from power for any progress to be made. They see an inherent injustice affirmed through acceptance of a peace plan that would ligitimize illegal gains made since the inception. You see them as torpedoing your concessions. The truth is in the middle.
You are hiding behind the IDF for security instead of building security through discourse and the pursuit of equality.
Smintjes
08-25-2003, 07:31 PM
I couldn't agree more with He219. (although I'm not exactly enthousiastic about his feelings towards France, but that's a whole other story ;) )
Spine
08-25-2003, 07:55 PM
I don't expect that Sharon should go anywhere without bodyguards, but answer me this - If Arafat had taken 1000 PA officers with him to visit a Jewish temple, would he have been welcome? No violent right wing Israeli protesters would have shown up? I realize that both sides have claims to the mount/wall complex.
As for Sharon acting like he has never been in the fighting, he was, big time :)
OK, my facts are kinda loose here, but in the 50's Sharon was a high ranking officer present on a cross-border night raid into Lebanon where lots of women and children were killed as they slept. Apparently Sharon and his commandos rigged a large amount of explosives to the buildings (an 'overkill' amount) and blew up a sizeable portion of the village.
I don't really have a 'side' here on this issue, I think both are out of control, but I do think that Sharon has made things much worse since coming into power. Just my opinion though...
StarvingStudent47
08-25-2003, 08:44 PM
Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount seems a bit more reasonable when you remember that that Muslim holy place is built directly on top of a Jewish holy place. It's no more "inflammatory" than an Orthodox Christian visiting the Hagia Sophia Mosque in Istanbul (which use to be the Santa Sophia cathedral). And he brought bodyguards because, quite simply, there have been a long history of violent mobs of politicians organizing at the Temple Mount. It would be suicide for any Israeli politician to go there without security.
And if we're talking about leadership and trying to blame specific leaders for the violence--
It's hard to point at Sharon at the root of Palestinian terrorism, because the same amount of terrorism was present before he was ever Prime Minister. I mean, we're talking about the start of the SECOND intifada, right?! ;) So which Israeli politician do we blame the first one on?
The fact is, Israel changes Prime Ministers about every 3-5 years. And no matter who is in charge, Palestinian terrorists continue killing Israelis.
HOWEVER...there IS a common link. A man named Yassir Arafat. Allegedly involved with the 1972 massacre of Israeli atheletes at the Munich Olympics, the PLO (and later the Palestinian Authority) have been intimately linked with terrorism during his three-decade rule. Both the January and March attacks were linked to him--he was trying to derail the roadmap to prevent Abbas from eclipsing his power. To this day Arafat controls the armed forces of the Palestinian Authority, which means Abbas couldn't crack down on Hamas even if he wanted to.
According to Forbes Magazine, Arafat's personal net worth is $300 million. He gets massive funding from Arab oil barons and other international sources. He's got the means to do whatever he wants, but his long history of terrorism suggests he actually prefers it to either legitimate war or diplomacy, and God forbid, enjoys it.
Arafat has essentially been the most powerful Palestinian politician continuously since the early 1970s. HE is the common link. There are numerous Israeli Prime Ministers--some Labor, some Likud, some Doves, some Hawks. There are numerous third-party negotiators--Clinton, Bush, a Saudi Prince, etc. What is the ONE common thread that best explains why all of these have fallen through?
YASSIR ARAFAT.
Get rid of Arafat, give Abbas the full authority that his fancy title implies, and the Roadmap might have a chance. So long as Arafat is still calling the shots, all future initiatives will fail just as surely as all past initiatives have.
budanski
08-25-2003, 11:10 PM
Peace is possible in the Mid East
The Isle of Zion
http://www.siamlady.com/Images/MEMap2.jpg
usa320
08-25-2003, 11:43 PM
Lol budanski.
budanski
08-26-2003, 01:09 AM
France to Israel: No evidence Hamas, Islamic Jihad are ''terror groups'' (http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=257044&lang=e&dir=news)
France expressed objections to placing Hamas and Islamic Jihad on the European Union(EU)'s list of "terror organizations", according to an Israeli report on Monday.
Israel's Yediot Aharonot website reported that diplomatic advisor to French President Jacques Chirac, Maurice Gourdault-Montagne, told the Israeli ambassador in France, Nissim Zvilli, during a weekend meeting, that there is no evidence that these two organizations are "terror groups."
"If we find that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are indeed terror groups opposed to peace, we may have to change the EU's stand," Gordo conveyed. "However, we mustn't limit ourselves to one, clear cut, position."
The meeting between Zvilli and Gordo, said to be Chirac's right hand man, took place in the framework of Israeli lobbying efforts to include the two Palestinian groups in the EU "terror list".
Some two months ago, the EU added the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestinian to its list, enabling European countries to freeze these groups' assets, and impose other sanctions on them.
France, according to Gordo, is opposed to placing both Hamas and Islamic Jihad on the EU list, and believes Israel should deal with its "terror threats" through political, rather than military, channels.
In addition, with regards to Yasser Arafat's status, the French, according to the report, refused to accept the United States' and Israel's position. When Arafat was discussed in the meeting between Zvilli and the French official, the latter expressed the "legitimacy" of Arafat as opposed to the lack of it regarding the Palestinian Premier, Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen).
In the meantime, Israeli Foreign Ministry officials expressed anger and outrage at the French stance regarding the two palestinian groups. "Such an attitude is one of criminal negligence. It refuses to assume responsibility over the war against terror and thus legitimizes - terrorism."
1938: France says Nazis no threat to peace
Royal
08-26-2003, 12:47 PM
Now, I don't know about John McCain, but it's sure looking like Gen Wesley Clark (ex-supreme commander of NATO forces, and head of the immensely successful Kosovo campaign) will be the Democratic candidate in 2004...that should be fun.
Immensely sucessfull. Which would explain why we (and you) are still there. Which would explain why our own AAR's showed that due to the skill of the VJ in using dummies and deception plans against us, less than 3% of AFV targets bombed were actual AFVs. Which would explain why we had to go into Macedonia to disarm ethnic Albanian rebels largely supplied from Kosovo. Which would explain his orders to British forces to take Pristina airport from the Russians (an operation which would have entailed massive casualties on both sides as well as earning the eternal emnity of the Russians). Fortunately Gen Sir Mike Jackson told him exactly where he could shove that one.
I could go on...
He219
08-26-2003, 02:51 PM
Israel Missile Strike Kills 1, Wounds 26
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - An Israeli helicopter fired three missiles at the car of a Hamas fugitive Tuesday, killing a bystander and wounding at least 26, doctors and witnesses said.
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061918723.israel_palestinians_xjd104.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920430.israel_palestinians_xjd107.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920888.israel_palestinians_xjd111.jpg
Palestinians tend to a donkey that was killed during an Israeli rocket attack in the Jebaliya refugee camp north of Gaza City Tuesday Aug. 26 2003. An Israeli helicopter fired three missiles at the car of a Hamas fugitive Tuesday, killing a bystander and wounding at least 26, doctors and witnesses said.
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061921277.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz104.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920889.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz102.jpg
An unidentified relative wheels a wounded man into treatment room at Shifa hospital in Gaza city, Tuesday Aug. 26, 2003. An Israeli helicopter fired three missiles at the car of a Hamas fugitive Tuesday, killing a bystander and wounding at least 26, doctors and witnesses said. (AP Photo/Adel Hana)
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920883.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz101.jpg
Certainly not winning the Hearts and Minds of the worldwide community. This seems to be no different than what the Terrorists do - Terrorize and kill innocent civilians. Two wrongs don't make it right.
Israel Missile Strike Kills 1, Wounds 26
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - An Israeli helicopter fired three missiles at the car of a Hamas fugitive Tuesday, killing a bystander and wounding at least 26, doctors and witnesses said.
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061918723.israel_palestinians_xjd104.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920430.israel_palestinians_xjd107.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920888.israel_palestinians_xjd111.jpg
Palestinians tend to a donkey that was killed during an Israeli rocket attack in the Jebaliya refugee camp north of Gaza City Tuesday Aug. 26 2003. An Israeli helicopter fired three missiles at the car of a Hamas fugitive Tuesday, killing a bystander and wounding at least 26, doctors and witnesses said.
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061921277.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz104.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920889.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz102.jpg
An unidentified relative wheels a wounded man into treatment room at Shifa hospital in Gaza city, Tuesday Aug. 26, 2003. An Israeli helicopter fired three missiles at the car of a Hamas fugitive Tuesday, killing a bystander and wounding at least 26, doctors and witnesses said. (AP Photo/Adel Hana)
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920883.mideast_israel_palestinians_gaz101.jpg
Certainly not winning the Hearts and Minds of the worldwide community. This seems to be no different than what the Terrorists do - Terrorize and kill innocent civilians. Two wrongs don't make it right.
And with usa ? people in iraq won't died there cuz..the usa soldairs ?
this pics don't mean anything.....and with afganistan ?
in war people die...we did't choice to fight .... we have to....
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 03:56 PM
this pics don't mean anything
Yes they do. They are the fuel for Palestinian counterattacks. These are innocent people. Firing rockets into crowded market places, I call that terrorism. I agree with He219 wholeheartedly.
Ichhabe
08-26-2003, 04:06 PM
Maybe it is time to let the Israeli government learn the meaning of sanctions?
What boogles the mind is that Israel can glide away as an eel in a bucket of grease everytime they do something that any other country on the planet would see their skies filled with enemy fighters.
It is about time that our collective guilt for WW II is put aside and learn Israel on how one as a civilized country should behave.
(Sharon has been a war criminal since the day after he picked up a rifle.)
If the Arabs had taken care of there own terrorists this would't have happened. If they don't do so, then we will. Once they will stop killing our civilians like they did a week ago (without any provocation from the side of Israel), the elimination of terrorists will stop.
Ichhabe worte: "Maybe it is time to let the Israeli government learn the meaning of sanctions?
What boogles the mind is that Israel can glide away as an eel in a bucket of grease everytime they do something that any other country on the planet would see their skies filled with enemy fighters.
It is about time that our collective guilt for WW II is put aside and learn Israel on how one as a civilized country should behave."
If you want to place sanctions on Israel and attack it because it is trying to deafend itself from terrorists, then you may as well do so to the UK, US and any other state which deafends it's people from terrorism.
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 04:24 PM
As long as the IDF doesn't know the meaning of "surgical strikes" against terrorism, but instead keeps using overkill firepower and a ridiculous show of force which always makes civilian victims, they're not a lot different from a Palestinian terrorist.
When will you people learn that the solution to the entire problem doesn't lie in bloodthirsty revenge?
Royal
08-26-2003, 04:28 PM
Ichabe,
I agree with you 100%. Were you with the UN forces in the Lebanon? I worked with a couple of Marinejager who were out there a while back - some nasty stories.
While I condemn the terrorism of Hamas (and similar groups) I also condemn the terrorism of Isreal from the creation of the country to date. That's not to say I don't respect elements of the IDF, I do.
I believe passionately that the only way to defeat terrorism is through a mixture of good intelligence, and more importantly through winning the 'hearts and minds' of local people. Heavy handedness is invariably counter productive - regardless of who is the heavy handed one.
From a British point of view it is a lesson we partially forgot in Northern Ireland and are forgeting in Iraq. I'm not sure it was one the Isreali's ever learned :(
budanski
08-26-2003, 04:29 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030826/capt.1061920888.israel_palestinians_xjd111.jpg
... poor donkey :(
Ichabe,
I agree with you 100%. Were you with the UN forces in the Lebanon? I worked with a couple of Marinejager who were out there a while back - some nasty stories.
While I condemn the terrorism of Hamas (and similar groups) I also condemn the terrorism of Isreal from the creation of the country to date. That's not to say I don't respect elements of the IDF, I do.
I believe passionately that the only way to defeat terrorism is through a mixture of good intelligence, and more importantly through winning the 'hearts and minds' of local people. Heavy handedness is invariably counter productive - regardless of who is the heavy handed one.
From a British point of view it is a lesson we partially forgot in Northern Ireland and are forgeting in Iraq. I'm not sure it was one the Isreali's ever learned :(
FFS...cheack you'r country first...what you did in iraq ? the same thing we did to the palstinian's....and iraq even never attack you'r country....
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 04:39 PM
UoUo, I don't mean to offend you, but that last remark is a load of crap.
UoUo, I don't mean to offend you, but that last remark is a load of crap.
Tell me why...please.
this pics don't mean anything
Yes they do. They are the fuel for Palestinian counterattacks. These are innocent people. Firing rockets into crowded market places, I call that terrorism. I agree with He219 wholeheartedly.
It's stateterrorism ;)
yeah...all the people can talk about us....but they never check about there country...
:roll:
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 04:48 PM
I've always been sceptic about the war in Iraq (especially about the reason, but that's another discussion), I think I have already made that clear on this board. But I don't recall British and American soldiers firing missiles into civilians, every time an American or Brit gets shot. Over the last 10-20 years, all Israel ever did to fight terrorism was to use the exact same method as a retaliation.
And to compare the Israel/Palestinian problem with the war/post war in Iraq, is just plain nonsense. It's a whole other setting, background, approach and, basically, problem.
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 04:51 PM
yeah...all the people can talk about us....but they never check about there country...
:roll:
This discussion is about the Israeli/Palestinian problem. I don't see what that has to do with Belgium. (or maybe the genocide law ;-) )
I've always been sceptic about the war in Iraq (especially about the reason, but that's another discussion), I think I have already made that clear on this board. But I don't recall British and American soldiers firing missiles into civilians, every time an American or Brit gets shot. Over the last 10-20 years, all Israel ever did to fight terrorism was to use the exact same method as a retaliation.
And to compare the Israel/Palestinian problem with the war/post war in Iraq, is just plain nonsense. It's a whole other setting, background, approach and, basically, problem.
UK and USA didn't have to deal evrey they with those f**king murders....i never saw buses bombd in center of england...
and i can tell you...if this whould happen....england would kill those terorist...no matter where they are...
yeah...all the people can talk about us....but they never check about there country...
:roll:
This discussion is about the Israeli/Palestinian problem. I don't see what that has to do with Belgium. (or maybe the genocide law ;-) )
Too bad we never got the chance to really put Sharon on the stand :) on the other hand I did find that law quite dumb.
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 04:54 PM
The law *is* quite dumb, even in it's present slimmed off form. We just sued China over a cult. You should have seen the stuff that happened here. Some opposition guy used the genocide law to sue our "Secretary of State", right in the middle of the elections. rofl
yeah...all the people can talk about us....but they never check about there country...
:roll:
This discussion is about the Israeli/Palestinian problem. I don't see what that has to do with Belgium. (or maybe the genocide law ;-) )
Too bad we never got the chance to really put Sharon on the stand :) on the other hand I did find that law quite dumb.
Belgium don't have the right to put anyone on the stand....
He219
08-26-2003, 04:56 PM
... poor donkey
Hehe, The HORROR!
as an eel in a bucket of grease rofl
without any provocation from the side of Israel
Whithout any provocation? All a Palestinian has to do is walk around the Occupied Territories to see some of your "without provocation"...
Think about it, You guys never once expressed any regret for the innocent civilians killed. Instead you attack any criticism over a draconian policy of tit-for-tat revenge killings without ever giving any thought as to the lack of humanity shown that makes us support the fight against terrorism, even state sponsored terrorism.
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 04:59 PM
Belgium don't have the right to put anyone on the stand....
I never said we did. For those matters we have courts in The Hague. Those I *do* support.
Ichhabe
08-26-2003, 05:01 PM
Yes Royal. I was part of the UN-forces in Lebanon. I was down there in 1986 and a new tour in 1987.
Before that, during and after the IDF had Open Season on UNIFIL-soldiers. If I'm not wrong, more UN-soldiers were killed by IDF than by any other group/army/guerllia/Armed elements.
Personally they shot at me, threw a grenade at me and harrassed me, but hey!!! That was part of the game, so I have no hard feelings against IDF in that way. But it is a little odd that they killed and harrassed the same soldiers that tried to keep their borders free from guerilla infiltration.
What bothered me was the way they behaved against civilians and let the SLA (South Lebanise Army ) do their dirty work.
((And before any of you Israelis try to diss me as a friend of PLO and want to see your country threwn in the sea, you are so wrong. But it is hard to be a friend of Israel these days. ))
Belgium don't have the right to put anyone on the stand....
I never said we did. For those matters we have courts in The Hague. Those I *do* support.
I am also support the court in Hague...
Yes Royal. I was part of the UN-forces in Lebanon. I was down there in 1986 and a new tour in 1987.
Before that, during and after the IDF had Open Season on UNIFIL-soldiers. If I'm not wrong, more UN-soldiers were killed by IDF than by any other group/army/guerllia/Armed elements.
Personally they shot at me, threw a grenade at me and harrassed me, but hey!!! That was part of the game, so I have no hard feelings against IDF in that way. But it is a little odd that they killed and harrassed the same soldiers that tried to keep their borders free from guerilla infiltration.
What bothered me was the way they behaved against civilians and let the SLA (South Lebanise Army ) do their dirty work.
((And before any of you Israelis try to diss me as a friend of PLO and want to see your country threwn in the sea, you are so wrong. But it is hard to be a friend of Israel these days. ))
FFS and with the 3 soldair's ? the hizbulla take them....and the stupaid un soldairs didn't do nothing to stop them....
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 05:12 PM
((And before any of you Israelis try to diss me as a friend of PLO and want to see your country threwn in the sea, you are so wrong. But it is hard to be a friend of Israel these days. ))
That's probably the best line I've read here.
Ichhabe
08-26-2003, 05:12 PM
FFS and with the 3 soldair's ? the hizbulla take them....and the stupaid un soldairs didn't do nothing to stop them....
And that meant?
And don't call UN-soldiers stupid. Many have lost their lives for your countrys safety.
Many a night they have been out on patrols to look for Armed elements heading your way. You should be ashamed. :bash:
FFS and with the 3 soldair's ? the hizbulla take them....and the stupaid un soldairs didn't do nothing to stop them....
And that meant?
And don't call UN-soldiers stupid. Many have lost their lives for your countrys safety.
Many a night they have been out on patrols to look for Armed elements heading your way. You should be ashamed. :bash:
Sure...i forgot...like they defend us in 48....ha and in 67...and how can you forgot 73....and what about 82 ? ha....and in 91 ?.....
:bash:
Royal
08-26-2003, 05:20 PM
UK and USA didn't have to deal evrey they with those f**king murders....i never saw buses bombd in center of england...
and i can tell you...if this whould happen....england would kill those terorist...no matter where they are...
No the IRA/INLA/Real IRA/IPLA etc, etc. never bombed bars, buses and residential areas did they?
http://www.standardtimes.com/daily/02-96/02-20-96/1bomb.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/cease.shtml
The M62 bus bomb in 1974, or the london one in 1996 or the 2001 Belfast bus bomb...
That's why the vast majority of them were arrested (and have now been released). Yes, there were civilian casualties in SF Ops - but the numbers are in the 10's and at least the victims and their families were compensated, rather than having their homes bulldozed.
UK and USA didn't have to deal evrey they with those f**king murders....i never saw buses bombd in center of england...
and i can tell you...if this whould happen....england would kill those terorist...no matter where they are...
No the IRA/INLA/Real IRA/IPLA etc, etc. never bombed bars, buses and residential areas did they?
http://www.standardtimes.com/daily/02-96/02-20-96/1bomb.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/cease.shtml
The M62 bus bomb in 1974, or the london one in 1996 or the 2001 Belfast bus bomb...
That's why the vast majority of them were arrested (and have now been released). Yes, there were civilian casualties in SF Ops - but the numbers are in the 10's and at least the victims and their families were compensated, rather than having their homes bulldozed.
wow....3 times.....every day we have a teror attack here....
and we never bulldozed homes just for the fun....we are bulldozed the homes of the terorists
i don't support this but yet http://www.amnesty.org.il/iraq/death.html
that hapen in a war....
Royal
08-26-2003, 05:37 PM
wow....3 times.....every day we have a teror attack here....
Sorry, maybe I should get them to blow up a few more. Would that ease your conscience?
and we never bulldozed homes just for the fun....we are bulldozed the homes of the terorists
No, you bulldoze the homes of terrorists families.
wow....3 times.....every day we have a teror attack here....
Sorry, maybe I should get them to blow up a few more. Would that ease your conscience?
and we never bulldozed homes just for the fun....we are bulldozed the homes of the terorists
No, you bulldoze the homes of terrorists families.
look above you....and see what you are doing in iraq...(even i 100% support you about that war..).
and if they stop the teror...we whould nothave to bulldozed their homes
Royal
08-26-2003, 05:49 PM
look above you....and see what you are doing in iraq...(even i 100% support you).
For once I agree with you. If you read my other posts you'd see that I don't agree with the heavy handed way we often operate in Iraq either. I have been equally critical of over reactions there leading to unnecessary civilian casualties...
Just because you feel the need to support unconscienable actions of my country doesn't mean I have to do the same for yours ;)
look above you....and see what you are doing in iraq...(even i 100% support you).
For once I agree with you. If you read my other posts you'd see that I don't agree with the heavy handed way we often operate in Iraq either. I have been equally critical of over reactions there leading to unnecessary civilian casualties...
Just because you feel the need to support unconscienable actions of my country doesn't mean I have to do the same for yours ;)
you don't have to support me..but be objectiv.....
Smintjes
08-26-2003, 05:57 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3182959.stm
He219
08-26-2003, 06:09 PM
and we never bulldozed homes just for the fun....we are bulldozed the homes of the terorists
http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=394579
Palestinians sift through the ruins of a newly-demolished home, in Wallaji village, in the outskirts of Arab East Jerusalem, several kilometers (miles) from the West Bank, Wednesday, Aug. 13, 2003. Israel destroyed five homes in Wallaji Wednesday, saying the Palestinian occupants were illegally living on Israeli land. (AP Photo/Oded Balilty)
http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=400713
A Palestinian boy stands near Israeli soldiers as army bulldozers demolish a house in the West Bank village of Nazlat Issa near the Israeli Arab town of Baka Al-Gharbiyeh, Thursday Aug. 21, 2003. Israeli bulldozers on Thursday flattened dozens of Palestinian shops and houses in the same West Bank village for the second time this year, ignoring the protests of local Palestinians and foreign activists. (AP Photo/ Eitan Hess-Ashkenazi)
http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=398673
Israeli police and border patrol officers stand guard, while two heavy machines demolish the home of the Al Jabari family, Israeli Arabs who are among the many homeowners which the Israeli government claims have built homes without a permit, in the Beit Hanina suburb of Jerusalem, near the border with the West Bank, Monday, Aug. 18, 2003. (AP Photo/Brennan Linsley)
Why are you trying to convince us that Sharon's draconian policies are righteous? For decades we have seen Settlements being built in the Occupied Territories while Palestinians houses are demolished. You can't tell me that Israel is not actively pursuing the demographic recomposition of East Jerusalem as well as in other parts of the Occupied Territories...
Ichhabe
08-26-2003, 07:43 PM
Sure...i forgot...like they defend us in 48....ha and in 67...and how can you forgot 73....and what about 82 ? ha....and in 91 ?.....
:bash:
I am not an expert on international law. But the War of 1948 could be compared as an civil war between jews and arabs. UN could not go in then.
1967; Israel was the attacker. Even though it was an pre-emptive attack, Israel attacked first.
1973; This time Israel was attacked. But did not ask for help from the outside world. You pulled it off, and Hooray for that.
1982; Newsflash: Israel was the attacker.
1991: ?
And what is it with all these HA's??? Are you the official "Forum fighter" of Israel, with lisence to make powerful statements? I may think it is your young age (17), so I give you the benefit of cherish young age.
But remeber when your out on patrol 15 months from now; Wouldnt it be nice if Palestinians and Israelis just could get along!?!
I see that a lot of people here are not aware to the fact that civilians can get hurt or killed in military action. The fact that a civilian was killed doesn't make the act a terrorist one. The only time this kind of action can be seen as terrorism is when civilian are the intended targets, however this was not the case here. The intended target was a terrorist.
He219 wrote: Whithout any provocation? All a Palestinian has to do is walk around the Occupied Territories to see some of your "without provocation"...
Since the Oslo agreements the PA had control over many
parts of the territories and in 2000 they almost got a state which would control over 90% of the territorys. But then the Intifada broke out and after each suicied bombing the IDF tooke control over areas of the territories in order to search for weapons, explosives and wanted terrorists. It seems to me that so far the Arabs have lost more then they have gained in this Intifada.
The UN?! Are you refering to that organization which has a terrorist supporting state (Syria) in it's the Security Council?
Smintjes wrote: "As long as the IDF doesn't know the meaning of "surgical strikes" against terrorism, but instead keeps using overkill firepower and a ridiculous show of force which always makes civilian victims, they're not a lot different from a Palestinian terrorist.
When will you people learn that the solution to the entire problem doesn't lie in bloodthirsty revenge?"
What "overkill firepower"?! If we had used overkill firepower, we would have used a one tone bomb and not a hellfire missile. Actually if we had done that the terrorists would probably be dead, but so would be the whole neighborhood. Sundays killing of four terrorists and no civilians is a perfect example for a surgical strike and what we are trying to achieve. However, today we saw that surgical strikes don't allways work.
We are not trying to kill the terrorists for vengeance, we kill them so they won't be able to kill again.
Smintjes wrote: "This discussion is about the Israeli/Palestinian problem. I don't see what that has to do with Belgium. (or maybe the genocide law )"
Yes after what the Belgians did in Congo, they have every right to judge us...
He219
08-26-2003, 10:17 PM
What "overkill firepower"?! If we had used overkill firepower, we would have used a one tone bomb and not a hellfire missile
You mean something like this.....
http://www.inminds.co.uk/mirror-wed-july-24-2002.jpg
A U.S.-built Israeli F-16 warplane dropped a one-ton laser-guided Zarit bomb on a building in densely-populated Gaza City late Monday, July 22, killing 17 civilians, eleven of them children, as well as its target for assassination, Salah Shehada, the military chief of the Palestinian Islamic resistance group Hamas, and his bodyguard.
Israel came in for massive international criticism after the attack, as condemnation calls came from Arab countries, E.U., Russia, China and Malaysia. Even the United States, which rarely criticizes Israel, labeled that attack as “heavy-handed”.
"Are you still seeking proof to try Sharon?" the children asked Bush.
Israel was roundly condemned Wednesday, July 24, in the U.N. Security Council for its air strike, with the Palestinian envoy calling for war crimes charges to be filed in the International Criminal Court (ICC).
Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres called the devastating air raid a "mistake (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2148548.stm)," although Sharon, who personally approved the raid, called it one of the air force's most successful operations.
His finance minister, Silvan Shalom, claimed Sharon had allegedly not known the strike would cause so many civilian casualties.
A disbelieving Israeli press has demanded how the army, which prides itself on its pinpoint intelligence accuracy, could have dropped so large a bomb on a crowded area of apartment blocks in the middle of the night.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/07/28/story325059.asp
illegally house...wtf you want us to do ? it's an illegally house....
:roll:
Sure...i forgot...like they defend us in 48....ha and in 67...and how can you forgot 73....and what about 82 ? ha....and in 91 ?.....
:bash:
I am not an expert on international law. But the War of 1948 could be compared as an civil war between jews and arabs. UN could not go in then.
1967; Israel was the attacker. Even though it was an pre-emptive attack, Israel attacked first.
1973; This time Israel was attacked. But did not ask for help from the outside world. You pulled it off, and Hooray for that.
1982; Newsflash: Israel was the attacker.
1991: ?
And what is it with all these HA's??? Are you the official "Forum fighter" of Israel, with lisence to make powerful statements? I may think it is your young age (17), so I give you the benefit of cherish young age.
But remeber when your out on patrol 15 months from now; Wouldnt it be nice if Palestinians and Israelis just could get along!?!
In 48 the un didn't do nothing to stop the arabic coutries... (civil war ?)
In 73...the un left Egept after 56 war....and that why the Aarabs can strted that war....
In 82 the un did nothing to stop the terorist (again...israel go to wars for fun...)
And in the golf war 1 no body do nothing to keep israel safe from the iraqi scuds.....and israel even not reply to the attack...
and yes...i want peace...next year i will join the army...and be sure that i want peace...and my brother is risking is life every day...for me and my country.
btw...the pic of the pals' baby...its so unfair....we could poblish a pics of babies that killed in sucide attack to......
"Forum fighter" no...i am just wnat to tell you our side....
He219,
Exactly, since that assassination Israel never came to use this course of action in order to kill terrorists. Israel expressed it's remorse because of the high civilian death toll. Of course I'm sure if it was the other way around and 17 Israeli civilians would have died because of the terrorist that was killed in the Israeli operation which was mentioned in your post, you would see Arabs dancing in the streets.
StarvingStudent47
08-27-2003, 01:36 AM
In 1967, Nasser's blockade of the Straits of Tiran (sp?) was the act that started the war, according to international law. Naval blockades are an act of war. End of story.
And even if that weren't the case, when Nasser has his tanks lined up on the Israeli border, and has made numerous public statements declaring his imminent intent to invade, an Israeli attack against his forces hardly counts as "instigating" war.
1982--Israel may have "initiated the war" according to international law, just as the United States "initiated war" with Afghanistan in 2001. But like Afghanistan, Lebanon was harboring terrorists (the PLO) who were launching continual, large-scale cross-border terorrist attacks. The PLO was also continually firing rockets and artillery shells across the border, into Israeli towns in the Galilee.
Royal
08-27-2003, 03:15 AM
I see that a lot of people here are not aware to the fact that civilians can get hurt or killed in military action. The fact that a civilian was killed doesn't make the act a terrorist one. The only time this kind of action can be seen as terrorism is when civilian are the intended targets, however this was not the case here. The intended target was a terrorist.
Several people you are arguing (yours truly included) with here have put enough civilian bodies into bodybags for several lifetimes. Nobody has said that Isreal sets out to kill civilians. Our problem is with the fact that you are incredibly cavalier with the risks to civilians in your operations. Far too many civilians have been killed - your attitude is a large part of why the Intifada continues. Surgical strikes by SF teams rarely cause civilian casualties. Bombing from 20000 feet does.
We are not trying to kill the terrorists for vengeance, we kill them so they won't be able to kill again.
Both sides are clearly killing for vengance, because the public on both sides demand it. I can understand the feeling, I have felt the same way when I have lost friends to Irish republican terrorists. The difference is that our legal system of checks prevents us carrying out revenge attacks. That is why the vast majority of terrorists in the UK (and Eire) have been arrested, tried and imprisoned. Mostly to be released later under the ceasefire agreement.
And in the golf war 1 no body do nothing to keep israel safe from the iraqi scuds.....and israel even not reply to the attack...
Which would explain why the US provided Patriot batteries and why the UK SF main effort (and a large part of the US SF effort) on the ground during the air campaign was finding Scud launchers.
BTW more Isreali civilians died of suffocation (from not being trained in the use of respirators - most inadvertatly fell asleep and blocked the filters) than were killed by Scuds...
btw...the pic of the pals' baby...its so unfair....we could poblish a pics of babies that killed in sucide attack to......
Yes you could. As we have repeatedly tried to tell you, both sides are killing civilans, women and children included.
"Forum fighter" no...i am just wnat to tell you our side....
And we're just trying to show you the effects of your sides actions...
Spine
08-27-2003, 03:29 AM
Very well said Royal.
Smintjes
08-27-2003, 04:26 AM
Yes after what the Belgians did in Congo, they have every right to judge us...
Again The Belgian Congo non argument. Yes, we have a colonial past. Yes, there were some atrocities there. And no, I'm not proud of that. But with all due respect, I don't see what that has got to do with Israelis and Palestinians killing each other.
And mind you, our colonial past ended more than forty years ago.
Smintjes:
"Again The Belgian Congo non argument. Yes, we have a colonial past. Yes, there were some atrocities there. And no, I'm not proud of that. But with all due respect, I don't see what that has got to do with Israelis and Palestinians killing each other.
And mind you, our colonial past ended more than forty years ago"
We were discussing Belgium attempts to judge Israelis for actions that have nothing to do with the Belgium people.
There weren't "some atrocities", millions of Africans died under your rule. The only reason you were there was Congos natural resources (diamonds), which you stole.
Even after it's independence you nterfered in it's affairs. Your government abducted it's first democraticly elected president, after this he was strangled to death and his body was dissolved in acid. The freanch assassin who did this still carrys teeth of the dead president as a "souvenir".
"Several people you are arguing (yours truly included) with here have put enough civilian bodies into bodybags for several lifetimes. Nobody has said that Isreal sets out to kill civilians. Our problem is with the fact that you are incredibly cavalier with the risks to civilians in your operations. Far too many civilians have been killed - your attitude is a large part of why the Intifada continues. Surgical strikes by SF teams rarely cause civilian casualties. Bombing from 20000 feet does."
We are not cavalier with the risks to civilians in our operations. Many times we canceled operations because there was a high risk to civilian life. We often use SF teams to detain terrorists or kill them, not long ago an Israeli SF fighter was killed in such an operation. Sometimes we can't get the SF forces to detain or kill terrorists (especially senior terrorists), becuse they frequently change location and are well protected. So we have to use another course of action which is elimination by using helicopter gunships.
Belive me, most Israelis don't want vengeance but to stop the terrorists, and sometimes the only way to do this is by elimination.
[quote="m"]
We were discussing Belgium attempts to judge Israelis for actions that have nothing to do with the Belgium people.
[quote]
They do have to do with our people, when muslim and jews confront eachother in our belgian streets about what's going on in Israel and the occupied areas, we are involved.
So we as a people and also as a nation can judge your actions and try to help you but if you just don't want to even hear our comments and always go ranting about what we did in the PAST well excuse me then but then next time a palestinian terrorsit blows up a bus I won't mind any longer.
He219
08-27-2003, 09:30 AM
And we're just trying to show you the effects of your sides actions...
Very well said, Royal.
illegally house...wtf you want us to do ? it's an illegally house....
You use the word 'illegal' very liberally in an application to serve an ethno-centric agenda. So Israel can deem Arab construction in Arab East Jerusalem and elsewhere as 'illegal' whereas you choose to invalidate international objections to the settlement and occupation of Arab lands termed 'illegal'...... Go figure.
Clearly, Irsaeli regulations for the construction of Arab dwellings is purposely made to be extremely difficult in order to reshape the ethnic demographics of the region. Bulldozing ancient farmlands and olive groves, building of settlements and siezing of land for security reasons certainly does not seem legal in my books....
You wrote that you only bulldoze 'terrorist's' dwellings. I showed otherwise.
m: It's a good thing that one-ton bombs are not being again. However, the effect of invalidating regular civilian collateral casualties through whichever munition selection only serves to parallel the targeting of civilians by the terrorists. That last strike injured no terrorists, but killed Hassan Hamlawi sitting outside his water-pipe shop and seriously injured many others. Merely targeting the individual does not validate the action.
We see a wanton disregard as to the value of Palestinian lives. The death count clearly reflects this disproportionality. Do you believe an Arab life is worth as much as an Israeli's?
As Royal wrote, We (I) am attepting to point out that continuing the policies of revenge killings while shunning constructive change is detrimental to the wellbeing of the Israeli State, the Arab State and to the 'world' in general. The US has been Israel's surrogate since it's inception and it would be nice to have our concerns and recommendations heeded and respected to the benefit of whole.
In 1967, Nasser's blockade of the Straits of Tiran (sp?) was the act that started the war, according to international law. Naval blockades are an act of war. End of story.
I believe what you are attempting to say is that the blockade violated the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958.
President Johnson expressed the belief that the blockade was illegal and unsuccessfully tried to organize an international flotilla to test it. Though it was only after the war, on June 19, 1967, that President Johnson acknowledged that the closure of the Strait of Tiran was the 'casus belli'.
It could be argued that the Straits of Tiran were not Israel's only supply route with Asia or that blocking it stopped the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran. I could play the role of 'Delvil's Advocate' but won't go there, hehehehe.....
p-) Have a nice day!
Smintjes
08-27-2003, 12:34 PM
We were discussing Belgium attempts to judge Israelis for actions that have nothing to do with the Belgium people.
Read my previous posts. That's exactly what I said myself. BTW: under the revised law only Belgians can press charges and the charges have to be related to Belgium/Belgians.
There weren't "some atrocities", millions of Africans died under your rule. The only reason you were there was Congos natural resources (diamonds), which you stole.
Even after it's independence you nterfered in it's affairs. Your government abducted it's first democraticly elected president, after this he was strangled to death and his body was dissolved in acid. The freanch assassin who did this still carrys teeth of the dead president as a "souvenir".
I already said: I know, and this was all 40 years ago. There have been numerous Parliamentary Investigation Committees about that, but I wouldn't be lying if I said that we have done fairly decent the last ten-fifteen years, when we're talking human rights and such. Slight exception: in 1993 (I think) some Belgian paracommandos held some Somalis over a burning fire. They have been tried and convicted for that.
Kriz wrote:"They do have to do with our people, when muslim and jews confront eachother in our belgian streets about what's going on in Israel and the occupied areas, we are involved.
So we as a people and also as a nation can judge your actions and try to help you but if you just don't want to even hear our comments and always go ranting about what we did in the PAST well excuse me then but then next time a palestinian terrorsit blows up a bus I won't mind any longer."
This is the most stupid excuse I have ever heard. "when muslim and jews confront eachother in our belgian streets about what's going on in Israel and the occupied areas, we are involved."
In that case judge those who "confront eachother" on your streets, although I think you will find that those who start the confrontations are the Muslims.
"So we as a people and also as a nation can judge your actions."
You can't judge our actions since your not in the same position as we are, when was the last time a bus blow up in the center of Brussels?!
"well excuse me then but then next time a palestinian terrorsit blows up a bus I won't mind any longer."
Well excuse me but I don't think you ever cared if Israelis died or not. We don't need your sympathy, we need you to mind your own affairs and let us mind ours.
Royal
08-27-2003, 01:19 PM
Well excuse me but I don't think you ever cared if Israelis died or not. We don't need your sympathy, we need you to mind your own affairs and let us mind ours.
Yes, the Belgians, Brits and even the US comitted colonial crimes (we even invented concentration camps). Before WWII bombing civilians was unacceptable, by the end we had killed 10's of thousands in places like Dresden, Coventry or Tokyo. And no, none of our countries are currently experiencing major terrorism on our mainlands.
The point I am trying to make is that man becomes more civilised - we no longer feed Christians to lions, hang children for stealing or delibertately bomb centres of civilian population. Unfortunately, civilisation seems to be going backwards in the Holy Land.
You just don't get that though, do you? Your actions have an effect, not just on the Palestinians you consider to be untermenschen, but across the whole Islamic world and thus on all of us...
Royal wrote:"civilisation seems to be going backwards in the Holy Land".
Your right but the ones who are going backwards are not the Israelis. You might not agree with me but the IDF is trying to reduce civilian casualtys as much as possible, like any western army. Soldiers who are found looting or abusing civilians are sentenced and incarcerated in a military prison. Israel gives humanitarian aid to the civilian living in the territorys. So it's quite strange to say Israel has gone backwards...
Smintjes
08-27-2003, 02:07 PM
This thread is taking on the shape of the conflict itself if you ask me. ;)
Seiyuuki
08-27-2003, 02:13 PM
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
"Israeli Missile Kills Hamas Man, Witnesses Say
Thu August 28, 2003 04:08 PM ET
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (*******) - An Israeli warplane killed a Hamas militant Thursday with a missile strike on a donkey cart he was riding in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian witnesses and medics said.
They identified the man as Hamdi Kalakh, an operative in the Izz al-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic militant faction, and said three other Palestinians were wounded in the attack in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis.
Israel radio said Kalakh was responsible for rocket attacks on Israel. The Israeli army had no immediate comment."
Another one we can add to the list...
budanski
08-28-2003, 04:26 PM
An Israeli warplane killed a Hamas militant Thursday with a missile strike on a donkey cart he was riding in the Gaza Stripl..
Jee-hawwwd!
Jee-hawwwd!
How is it that you Israelis always seem to able to take out a militant leader in every attack. You guys should train our counter-terrorists agents over here to be that efficient in locating terrorists. I guess if you guys have been at it for awhile, you have to be efficient.
He219
08-28-2003, 04:28 PM
Another Plestinian just riding a donkey cart or a terrorist mastermind?
"A big explosion went off at the side of the street. I saw a man completely burned fall off the donkey cart he was driving," Salah said.
A helicopter fired at least one missile into Khan Younis, a town near Gaza's southern border with Egypt, a Palestinian security official said. Witnesses said Israeli jets had been flying over the area for about half an hour before the attack.
The official, who spoken on condition of anonymity, identified the dead man as Hamdi Kalkha, 23. Three others were wounded he said, confirming reports from medical officials.
martinexsquaddie
08-28-2003, 04:29 PM
hamas does'nt seem to be running out of volunteers anytime soon
budanski
08-28-2003, 04:32 PM
Donkey seeking missile?
PETA is going to be all over those guys in less than 24 hours.
"hamas does'nt seem to be running out of volunteers anytime soon"
Well we have plenty of missiles (:
Seiyuuki
08-28-2003, 04:39 PM
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
He219
08-28-2003, 04:50 PM
Well we have plenty of missiles (:
I seriously doubt that a 23 year old Palestinian riding a Donkey Cart, even if he was a Hamas supporter, was a terrorist mastermind. With each missile strike they only grow stronger. We have seen hate of this kind in the past. Before it was the Jews that were on the receiving end. Now they seem to have no problems dissing it out. I'm shure the Nazis also said that they had plenty of bullets.... But they didn't.
Well we have plenty of missiles (:
I seriously doubt that a 23 year old Palestinian riding a Donkey Cart, even if he was a Hamas supporter, was a terrorist mastermind. With each missile strike they only grow stronger. We have seen hate of this kind in the past. Before it was the Jews that were on the receiving end. Now they seem to have no problems dissing it out. I'm shure the Nazis also said that they had plenty of bullets.... But they didn't.
:roll:
Seiyuuki
08-28-2003, 05:36 PM
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it really doesn't end!!!
He219
08-28-2003, 05:44 PM
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it really doesn't end!!!
When will it ever end?
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it really doesn't end!!!
When will it ever end?
When the terorists will die...
Royal
08-28-2003, 05:49 PM
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it doesn't end!!!
Yeah...it really doesn't end!!!
When will it ever end?
When the terorists will die...
Or if Isreal carries on alienating the civilian population and thus increasing terrorist recruitment...
When the terrorists win :(
StarvingStudent47
08-28-2003, 07:18 PM
Or if Isreal carries on alienating the civilian population and thus increasing terrorist recruitment...
When the terrorists win :(
That argument would have a lot more moral weight if Palestinian terrorism didn't predate Israeli incursions...you can use the same logic to blame al-Qaeda's existence on the American war in Afghanistan.
James
08-28-2003, 08:31 PM
I think the two sides are sliding towards a war of attrition... who do you think will win that?
I think the two sides are sliding towards a war of attrition... who do you think will win that?
Israel will never lost a war.
http://images.google.co.il/images?q=tbn:b_EyQruFLrsC:cw3.walla.co.il/mall_product_images/auction_rec_product/QFW51.jpg
Ichhabe
08-28-2003, 08:38 PM
I think the two sides are sliding towards a war of attrition... who do you think will win that?
Havent that war already been going on for a while???
Seiyuuki
08-28-2003, 09:22 PM
End it!!! End it already!!!
End it!!! End it already!!!
ok....just cuz you ask for...
it not soo...easy..
DE_Six
08-29-2003, 01:28 AM
I think the two sides are sliding towards a war of attrition... who do you think will win that?
Israel will never lost a war.
Exactly what the extatic Israeli population generally thought after the Six Days War, which led to laxism in military readiness, which led to the nearly catastrophic 1973 war. Be it for a few hours only, Israel contemplated its end. Moshe Dayan expressed great regrets about this excess of confidence in his biography. He was wise enough to admit the IDF general staff underestimated the Arab forces anf that it should never be allowed to happen again.
Royal
08-29-2003, 03:06 AM
Or if Isreal carries on alienating the civilian population and thus increasing terrorist recruitment...
When the terrorists win :(
That argument would have a lot more moral weight if Palestinian terrorism didn't predate Israeli incursions...you can use the same logic to blame al-Qaeda's existence on the American war in Afghanistan.
Isreali incursions can be dated back to Moses - that early enough for you? Failing that as has already been discussed, the Jewish terror campaign from the 1920's onwards culminating in the British withdrawal in '47.
The real moral problem is that Isreals appologists cannot accept that there is blame on both sides, and that this will continue untill that is addressed :(
"I seriously doubt that a 23 year old Palestinian riding a Donkey Cart, even if he was a Hamas supporter, was a terrorist mastermind. With each missile strike they only grow stronger. We have seen hate of this kind in the past. Before it was the Jews that were on the receiving end. Now they seem to have no problems dissing it out. I'm shure the Nazis also said that they had plenty of bullets.... But they didn't."
You can doubt it all you want but this man was responsible for rocket attacks on Israel. Actually You shouldn't be surprised, 23 is considered old in the terrorist organizations. Oh and now you are trying to compare us to the Nazis, that's very "original".
The NEVERENDING Story .... ;)
Some people here think that by trying to deafend ourselves we are helping the terrorist by making the Arabs hate us. May I ask what should we do each time the Arab terrorists kill our civilians? We have tried a peaceful solution, a cease-fire which ended with the death of 20 Israeli civilians. The British and Americans have attacked whole countrys in efforts to stop the terrorist threat. Does this mean the rest of the world has the right to defend itself againts terrorism but Israelis only have the right to die?
mocking_loudly
08-29-2003, 08:47 AM
Right, all in favour of sending the middle east into outer space say "I!".
Right, all in favour of sending the middle east into outer space say "I!".
soo...where are you from ?
EvanL
08-29-2003, 11:43 AM
By saying the British have attacked whole countrys to attack terrorists, are you reffering to Northern Ireland? Because Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. Its an internal problem not much unlike your own in Israel, just with not as many casualties. And the war in Northern Ireland has been going on for hundreds of years.
By saying the British have attacked whole countrys to attack terrorists, are you reffering to Northern Ireland? Because Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. Its an internal problem not much unlike your own in Israel, just with not as many casualties. And the war in Northern Ireland has been going on for hundreds of years.
*iraq*...ever heard about iraq ?
By saying the British have attacked whole countrys to attack terrorists, are you reffering to Northern Ireland? Because Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. Its an internal problem not much unlike your own in Israel, just with not as many casualties. And the war in Northern Ireland has been going on for hundreds of years.
*iraq*...ever heard about iraq ?
The British mainly atacked Iraq because of their relationship with the USA.
By saying the British have attacked whole countrys to attack terrorists, are you reffering to Northern Ireland? Because Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. Its an internal problem not much unlike your own in Israel, just with not as many casualties. And the war in Northern Ireland has been going on for hundreds of years.
*iraq*...ever heard about iraq ?
The British mainly atacked Iraq because of their relationship with the USA.
soo ? and we are attaked paltinians because of the teror....
and you attaked iraq..just because the relationship with the USA ?
(even i support UK and US in this war)
Spine
08-29-2003, 12:04 PM
I've watched a documentary on the behavior of the settlers in the west bank, absolutely disgusting. Maybe if the settlements were taken down, and the settlers re-located to somewhere inside Israel, they wouldn't make such a tempting target.
Some of the settlers seem to just LOVE the conflict and try to keep it going with their actions just as much as Hamas or any other terror group.
I think the problem will never end with current attitudes on both sides, so maybe they should be sent to space - deep space.
I've watched a documentary on the behavior of the settlers in the west bank, absolutely disgusting. Maybe if the settlements were taken down, and the settlers re-located to somewhere inside Israel, they wouldn't make such a tempting target.
Some of the settlers seem to just LOVE the conflict and try to keep it going with their actions just as much as Hamas or any other terror group.
I think the problem will never end with current attitudes on both sides, so maybe they should be sent to space - deep space.
yeah..sure...every day in the news we see the settlers kill paltinians..and blow buses in center gaza...sure... :roll:
ha...and i forgot...the settlers love the conflict...sure...they just love to die...
Spine wrote:"I've watched a documentary on the behavior of the settlers in the west bank, absolutely disgusting. Maybe if the settlements were taken down, and the settlers re-located to somewhere inside Israel, they wouldn't make such a tempting target.
Some of the settlers seem to just LOVE the conflict and try to keep it going with their actions just as much as Hamas or any other terror group.
I think the problem will never end with current attitudes on both sides, so maybe they should be sent to space - deep space."
First I would like to know who made the documentary. Funny you should mention this, today an Israeli couple living in the West Bank were fired upon while they were drivind. The husband was killed and the wife was injured, she gave birth to a healthy baby after she went through a Caesarean section. The only way the Israeli communitys in the territorys will be taken down is by peace talks and a peace agreement. The Arabs should know this won't happen as long as they kill Israeli civilians. In Israel there is not a lot of support in the settling enterprise (including myself), but by killing us the Arabs will get nothing.
By saying the British have attacked whole countrys to attack terrorists, are you reffering to Northern Ireland? Because Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. Its an internal problem not much unlike your own in Israel, just with not as many casualties. And the war in Northern Ireland has been going on for hundreds of years.
*iraq*...ever heard about iraq ?
The British mainly atacked Iraq because of their relationship with the USA.
soo ? and we are attaked paltinians because of the teror....
and you attaked iraq..just because the relationship with the USA ?
(even i support UK and US in this war)
What the hell ? My country (Belgium) didn't support the iraq war and still hasn't (and hopefully wont) send any troops to Iraq.
"What the hell ? My country (Belgium) didn't support the iraq war and still hasn't (and hopefully wont) send any troops to Iraq."
Your right, the only time Belgium did use it's army was when it neded to control Congo and it's people.
GAZA CITY, Gaza (CNN) -- At least two Palestinians were killed Saturday in an Israeli helicopter missile strike in central Gaza, Palestinian security officials told CNN Saturday.
The car was driving through a refugee camp. The two killed apparently were members of the military wing of the Palestinian group Hamas, the officials said. Israelis consider these "targeted killings," aimed at members of militant groups.
Three people were reported wounded.
warchild1/27scout
08-30-2003, 10:11 AM
i am so happy these freaking murderous crappy excuses for human life are dead and i hope isreal keeps on killing them. nobody on here should even be argueing about two ****ing terrorists dead. there is no justification for suicide bombings. everytime i hear one of these idiots say"i do not justify any suicide bombings BUT" then they talk about some occupation or some other reason. it's all a bunch of bull****. they can have thier damn state right now but they dont want it. the palistinians need to decide if they want thier own state or if they want to be on the side of terrorists. we need them to make that decision right now to start killing hamas and jihad members or die with them. then blow the whole goddamn place up. if they support hamas they don't deserve to live anyways. well thats my 25 cents worth. have a nice *&^%ing day. :D
i am so happy these freaking murderous crappy excuses for human life are dead and i hope isreal keeps on killing them. nobody on here should even be argueing about two f*** terrorists dead. there is no justification for suicide bombings. everytime i hear one of these idiots say"i do not justify any suicide bombings BUT" then they talk about some occupation or some other reason. it's all a bunch of bull****. they can have thier damn state right now but they dont want it. the palistinians need to decide if they want thier own state or if they want to be on the side of terrorists. we need them to make that decision right now to start killing hamas and jihad members or die with them. then blow the whole goddamn place up. if they support hamas they don't deserve to live anyways. well thats my 25 cents worth. have a nice *&^%ing day. :D
:hug:
Smintjes
08-30-2003, 01:23 PM
Your right, the only time Belgium did use it's army was when it neded to control Congo and it's people.
Please don't post bollocks here. We still have soldiers in Kosovo, and a substantial contingent of Belgian troops just returned from Afghanistan where they secured Kabul airport.
But oh yeah, that's right. The Israelis use their army for international peace keeping operations all the time. :cantbeli:
Seiyuuki
08-30-2003, 02:00 PM
But oh yeah, that's right. The Israelis use their army for international peace keeping operations all the time. :cantbeli:
They probably would if they were allow to. Though most of the time their participant in international operation would be deny to keep the Arabs happy.
Anyway...as always "End it!!! End this thread already!!!"
"What the hell ? My country (Belgium) didn't support the iraq war and still hasn't (and hopefully wont) send any troops to Iraq."
Your right, the only time Belgium did use it's army was when it neded to control Congo and it's people.
**** off ********, my great grandfather fought during world war 1 from scratch to start and my grandpa and grandma were members off the resistance during world war 2.
Those last two even helped jews so STFU :bash:
Smintjes
08-30-2003, 02:23 PM
My grandfather helped smuggle out a downed Canadian pilot. And was in the Belgian Red Cross. He helped a lot of casualties after the German V2 attack on a cinema in Antwerp (561 killed!)
ArmoredDov_D9
08-30-2003, 03:25 PM
The Belgians are conssisted from Flems and Velons. I don't remember which is which, but one were helping Jews while the other collaberated with the Nazis under the leading of Quizling.
Nevertheless, the Belgians have a very bloody history in Congo, so I advise them not to hurry to judge others. The last time they tried to do it (the law to trial un-Belgian related wars), it ended at a big farce.
Smintjes
08-30-2003, 03:43 PM
The Belgians are conssisted from Flems and Velons. I don't remember which is which, but one were helping Jews while the other collaberated with the Nazis under the leading of Quizling.
Not entirely correct. There were collaborators under the Flemish and Velons. The Velons had leon Degrelle's Rex-party, and the Flemish had the VNV. There were some people who went to fight with the Germans on the Eastern front, but it's not like there was an entire Flemish or Velon people who collaborated. Most of the Belgians were opposed to the occupation, but did nothing or silent protest for fear of retribution by the Germans. Mind you, the germans executed an entire Velon village as an "example".
In my village, the Germans had snipers stationed on the roof of the highest building here, and they shot two people at long range. The building is abandoned now, but it is owned by a friend of mine. A few months ago I stood in the exact spot where the snipers were stationed, a very "quieting" experience.
Nevertheless, the Belgians have a very bloody history in Congo, so I advise them not to hurry to judge others. The last time they tried to do it (the law to trial un-Belgian related wars), it ended at a big farce.
That's exactly what I said myself earlier in this thread.
ArmoredDov_D9
08-30-2003, 04:15 PM
OK.
The Belgian "international trial law" and the "bloody-oranges" boycott campaign against Israel are causing a great civil outrage against Belgium in Israel. Israelis are seeing those act as unfair and biased.
The good news is that stupid law have been canceled de-facto (after they tried to trail Bush's father) so now Israeli public opinion is concetrated against France - who seem to doubt the slaughtering 7 infants and 14 adult civilians on a city bus is an act of terror.
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