US troops issued AK47s

[FallenAngel]

As some of your have noticed, many US troops in Iraq are touting AK47s, AKMs, etc. Why?

Well, according to this article, are rear-echelon troops, tankers, aide-de-camps, etc. who need the rifles for patroling and protection, but the US Army seems to be short on M16s and M4s these days.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=12&u=/ap/20030824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_ak_47_heaven_1

Also, one doesn't need to clean an AK once a day to make sure it works, there's PLENTY of ammo available and if it breaks, replacements are easily abound. ;)

[StarvingStudent47]

Roughly 60% of the nation's budget goes toward national defense, we've spent hundreds of billions of dollars on a partly-functioning ICBM defense system, and we ran out of M-16s for our boys in Iraq? That's an embarassing shortfall.

[FallenAngel]

60%?!!?!?

It's more like 5% I think. There's more spent on education and transportation in this country than national defense (as it should be- but the point is that the defense part doesn't get a whole lot.)

There's 16 secretaries in the cabinet, thus there are 16 federal departments. Each needs a piece of the federal budget "pie". Even if you combined the Homeland Security Dept. and the Defense Dept, it still pry wouldn't come CLOSE to 60%. ;)

[BMF]

1: student, good qoute, i love that movie
2: the percentage of our nat'l budget that goes towards defence is 20%
3: the army has more then enough M16's around, believe me. now that we're using the M16A4 and M4 so much, there are thousands of M16A2's in armories waiting to be used. the AK's seen so much on TV are just captured weapons, taken either from dead/captured enemies, or discovered in previously unknown caches.

[usa320]

I agree about what they said about using their own weapons against them having a psychological impact...

"See this- i just took it off your friend over there after i knock his arse out... Im not sure if i will be able to carry two of these...why dont you just put your hands up..."

[FallenAngel]

Haha. True usa.

"Holy **** Mohammed! He's shooting at us with Ali's AK47!"
"Where's Ali?"
"I think that's him. The lifeless body on the ground with two in the chest and one in the head..."

woot

[StarvingStudent47]

I looked it up, and the Department of Defense receives roughly 15% of the federal budget each year. I think I had read a spreadsheet wrong when I came up with the 60% figure.

Still, it doesn't change my basic point. With the DoD receiving roughly $300 Billion per year, these sorts of things (whether it be a lack of M-16s, or a lack of desert camo uniforms for the troops) just shouldn't happen.

For future reference, the "Citizen's Guide to the Federal Budget," published by the federal government, is available here:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/pdf/guide.pdf

Section 2-3 is "total spending by function." And education gets a mere 3% of the federal budget, as long as you mentioned it ;)

[Seiyuuki]

That's a lot on Social Security.

[Kriz]

Well, it's very difficult to fund both better education and a better military (and several wars) on a massive tax cut. Besides, if one wanted to make a tax cut to actually help people, this past one wasn't it. The point is, I think I would rather have seen better funding for the military, health care, education, and various other programs than see a tax cut that helped a very small majority of Americans who don't seem to be in a serious bind for money. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

True, I really think that tax cut made the 1% of ultra rich even more rich and all the rest of the population got seriously screwed. But that's Bush's politics and since most Americans seem proub of the president and his policy I guess they don't really mind the crappy education, health care, etc.

[Herrmannek]

Maybe high taxes are stupid, but free studies aren't. Can you imagine that I've spended on studies this year less than 100$


-And who pays for this...you pay...this lady pays...we all pay

[He219]

Well, it's very difficult to fund both better education and a better military (and several wars) on a massive tax cut. Besides, if one wanted to make a tax cut to actually help people, this past one wasn't it. The point is, I think I would rather have seen better funding for the military, health care, education, and various other programs than see a tax cut that helped a very small majority of Americans who don't seem to be in a serious bind for money. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

Woha! Defense and Education are first in my book, but do not equate a Tax Cut as being detrimental to either. I believe in controling the expenditures of Socialized Welfare Programs and other extravagant Beuroratic subsidence programs that have nothing to do with either. The Middle Class and mainly the Wealthy Bear the Greatest Tax Burden and concordantly should be the first to see relief through a Tax Cut, otherwise you are promoting Social Inequalities with biased Taxation of a particular group which inturn reduces incentives for free market prospecting and investments that promote the betterment of the whole in the capitalist system with the creation of jobs and need for employment. That is, if you really believe in 'opportunity'. Socialism inherently favors security over socioeconomic advancement and penalizes incentives for innovation.



As for this thread, I also liked the FNs I saw our guys using......

[He219]

He219, I'm no socialist; I'm all for capitalism, believe me
Phew! I was almost worried there for a bit..... :P

I certainly don't think the US is running out of Tax Dollars, M16's or anything else. So some of the guys are using AK's, big deal. Their training certainly allows them to adapt to specific weapons and situations.

All right, Tane Angle! woot

[XASA]

Tane makes a good point about the sound of an AK firing could lead to friendly fire incidents. In Vietnam, when the M-14 was general issue and, later, when the M-16 was still having teething problems, more than a few G.I.s opted to carry an AK. MACV HQ quickly issued orders that would cease because of the possibility of friendly fire incidents in the bush but also because it was bad public relations to have American boys using Commie equipment. Another reason, which was classified at the time, was that MACV SOG teams were "salting" Viet Cong ammo dumps by leaving 7.62mm rounds designed to blow up in the weapon when the trigger was pulled amongst the rounds left undestroyed.

It seems every war has opponents preferring to use the others' equipment; i.e., the Germans preference for the Russian PPSH over their own excellent MP-40. American paratroopers used the German 3.5 inch rocket launcher and Panzerfausts during the Ardennes battle because they were much better than their own 2.36 inch bazooka. The Springfield 30.06, a Mauser derivative, was adopted after the Spanish used their Mausers with deadly affect during the Spanish-American War. The Americans even thought of adopting the German MG-42, but when someone improperly changed the caliber to 30.06, they forgot to make the proper adjustments and the tests were a flop.

I guess the point is, if it can kill your enemy, who cares.

[spier]

I severely doubt there is a shortage of M16's, especially since the US ships of thousands of them to "nice" countries for free every year. If there really is a problem then it is just logistics(running out of spare parts or ammo for the M16).

XASA, the German anti-armour weapons were very good, from the Panzerfaust 60 and onwards then they were superior to the US Bazooka.

However, you forgot the real oddity: German soldiers, mostly SS, really, really had a thing for the M1..Carbine. The adaptation of the PPSH-41 is understandable since it was made of wood; ever tried holding onto steel in -30C?

Maybe high taxes are stupid, but free studies aren't. Can you imagine that I've spended on studies this year less than 100$ $100? I got paid $1200.

[TacoDelRio]

Another reason, which was classified at the time, was that MACV SOG teams were "salting" Viet Cong ammo dumps by leaving 7.62mm rounds designed to blow up in the weapon when the trigger was pulled amongst the rounds left undestroyed.

Operation "Eldest Son"?

It worked well.

[XASA]

Another reason, which was classified at the time, was that MACV SOG teams were "salting" Viet Cong ammo dumps by leaving 7.62mm rounds designed to blow up in the weapon when the trigger was pulled amongst the rounds left undestroyed.

Operation "Eldest Son"?

It worked well.

Thanks Mr. Skorotsnoy! I'm at an age where I can remember events but not the cover names :P Have a good one.

[TacoDelRio]

Haha, I'm the same way, XASA.

Have a good week.

[Royal]

The adaptation of the PPSH-41 is understandable since it was made of wood; ever tried holding onto steel in -30C?

The handguard of the PPSh 41 is steel, as is the magazine. The real advantages of it were simplicity (although the MP38 & 40 were excellent SMG's they required good maint and had far more bits to break). The other thing of course was the 71 round mag as opposed to a 30 round one.

No surprises at all about the M1. We continued to use it (in preference to the L1A1 for jungle ops until the M16 came on line for us).

[Kampfhamster]

As some of your have noticed, many US troops in Iraq are touting AK47s, AKMs, etc. Why?

Well, according to this article, are rear-echelon troops, tankers, aide-de-camps, etc. who need the rifles for patroling and protection, but the US Army seems to be short on M16s and M4s these days.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=12&u=/ap/20030824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_ak_47_heaven_1

Also, one doesn't need to clean an AK once a day to make sure it works, there's PLENTY of ammo available and if it breaks, replacements are easily abound. ;)

Finally they got a good rifle. :lol:

[Haiw]

other reason the germans liked the pps41 so much was cus it never jammed...unlike the german smgs..

[XASA]

The trick is not to be captured using enemy equipment or having enemy "souvenirs" on your person. Several have written about how soldiers from every army treat those who are dumb enough not to get rid of enemy equipment before being captured, usually it's a quick "shot while attempting to escape" or worse.

[spier]

The adaptation of the PPSH-41 is understandable since it was made of wood; ever tried holding onto steel in -30C?

The handguard of the PPSh 41 is steel, as is the magazine. The real advantages of it were simplicity (although the MP38 & 40 were excellent SMG's they required good maint and had far more bits to break). The other thing of course was the 71 round mag as opposed to a 30 round one. The Germans rechambered most of their captured PPSch-41's to 9x19 Para. I am not familiar with them making a 71 round "mag" for it.

[Royal]

The Germans rechambered those weapons that made it far enough back down the line to be rechambered.

I would wager that the majority of those used by German troops were picked up on or near the front line, and used at that point in much the same way the US are using Kalashnikovs now, or we used FAL's in the Falklands, or for that matter MP40s and P8/P38s in North Africa and Italy...

[XASA]

Royal, I think you would win that wager. The number of PPSHs rechambered were few and those that have survived are collector items. Since they had also captured large amounts of ammunition, rechambering wasn't a priority for their arms industry. The Germans used many captured vehicles, artillery pieces and infantry weapons as their resources became limited, especially SS units, who, BTW, were also fond of the Browning HP manufactured in Belgium. Large scale remanufacturing was not an option because of their limited resources, which is why they utilized captured stockpiles in the first place.

Interesting postscript is Goering handed over a Smith & Wesson six-inch barrel revolver when captured.

[Haiw]

The Germans rechambered most of their captured PPSch-41's to 9x19 Para. I am not familiar with them making a 71 round "mag" for it.
the 71 round mags were from the russians..u know, those cute drums :)

[GazB]

"The Americans even thought of adopting the German MG-42, but when someone improperly changed the caliber to 30.06, they forgot to make the proper adjustments and the tests were a flop."

The Americanised MG42 was a flop... eventually. They called it the M60.

"The handguard of the PPSh 41 is steel, as is the magazine. "

The trigger guard is steel, the buttstock is made of wood... where you put your face when you fire. Your right hand is holding wood, while your left hand is holding either the mag or the metal front... either way I think gloves would be being worn.
The PPSh was also slightly more reliable because of the ammo it used. 9mm weapons try to poke a 9mm round in a 9mm hole. Easy when the weapon is clean and at room temperature. The PPSh feeds a 7.62mm round into a 9mm+ hole.
The 71 round drum gave it a firepower advantage over German SMGs, but of course the Germans went one better with the MP43 which gave them a range and firepower advantage over troops armed with SMGs.

[Beloved Shiv]

As some of your have noticed, many US troops in Iraq are touting AK47s, AKMs, etc. Why?

Well, according to this article, are rear-echelon troops, tankers, aide-de-camps, etc. who need the rifles for patroling and protection, but the US Army seems to be short on M16s and M4s these days.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=12&u=/ap/20030824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_ak_47_heaven_1



I think you may possibly be stretching the tenor of the article. A few crew served platforms are issued nominal sidearms/firearms and that, in conjunction with the popularity of troops confiscating captured or abandoned AK-47s makes for a good read for the average joe cruising the AP "hard news". I don't see anything in there about budget problems or a shortage of 16s. And one "quote" from the good Lt. Col. does not a crisis make.

[GazB]

Looks to me like soldiers issued with pistols would rather have been issued with something with a bit more range and punch. Shame there are no folding stock M16 type weapons, though that can't be impossible. The FN FAL also had its recoil spring in its buttstock so that you couldn't have a folding stock, but the para version of the FN FAL had an altered recoil spring and a folding stock. Surely they could do the same to the M16 or M4.

[XASA]

The Americanised MG42 was a flop... eventually. They called it the M60.



The M-60 did borrow its belt feeding mechanism from the MG42, but its gas driven action was derived from another German weapon, the Fallschirmjaeger Gewehr 42.

Since it is still in use after more than 40 years service with several nations including the U.S. Navy and SEAL Teams despite its shortcomings, makes me doubt your assertion that it is a "flop". Certainly its not on par with its successor, but it worked when it was supposed to work.

I'm not Remov, so no need to go into minute detail on its development, ballistics and deployment. Believe me, I know its history and how to properly use it.

The point I was making was within the context of the thread. The use of enemy weapons was -- and is -- commonplace on the battlefield and how, subsequently, the U.S. tested the MG42 for possible use during the war

[D.E. Watters]

FWIW: The .30-'06 reverse engineered MG42 was the T24, produced by General Motor's Saginaw Steering Gear Division. The engineers neglected the fact that the .30-'06 cartridge is longer than 7.92x57mm Mauser. Due to poor functioning, the T24 was shelved with only two prototypes produced.

After the war, the US Ordnance Corps decided to try and convert the FG42 automatic rifle into a belt-fed version. Bridge Tool and Die Works was given the contract to develop the T44. Taking a very direct approach, the belt feed mechanism of the MG42 was grafted onto the side of a FG42G rifle. To avoid the errors of the T24, the T44 remained chambered for the 7.92x57mm Mauser and used the non-disintegrating belt from the MG42. Testing of the T44 started in December 1946, and quickly proved what the Germans already knew about the FG42...it was simply too light for sustained full-auto fire.