How France helped both sides in the Falklands War

[sohaminator]

In his memoirs, former UK Defence Secretary Sir John Nott describes France as Britain's "greatest ally" during the Falklands War. But formerly secret papers and other evidence seen by the BBC show that was not the full story.
............................................................................
At the start of the conflict, France's left-leaning president, Francois Mitterrand, had come to Britain's aid by declaring an embargo on French arms sales and assistance to Argentina.

He also allowed the Falklands-bound British fleet to use French port facilities in West Africa, as well as providing London with detailed information about planes and weaponry his country had sold to Buenos Aires.

Paris also co-operated with extensive British efforts to stop Argentina acquiring any more Exocets on the world's arms market.

But Mitterrand's policy of supporting Britain provoked dissent among some senior officials in the French foreign ministry.

In a stinging memo dated 7 April 1982, France's then ambassador to London, Emmanuel de Margerie, described British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher as "Victorian, imperialist and obstinate". He went on to add that she had a "tendency to get carried away by combative instincts".

In another document entitled The Falklands: Lessons from a Fiasco, senior French official Bernard Dorin accused Britain of "superpower arrogance" and claimed the country had shown "profound contempt for Latinos".

Behind the scenes, actions were speaking louder than words. In what would appear to be a clear breach of President Mitterrand's embargo, a French technical team - mainly working for a company 51% owned by the French government - stayed in Argentina throughout the war.
............................................................................
'Are the French duplicitous people?' the answer is: 'Of course they are, and they always have been.'" - Sir John Nott, former UK defence secretary.


Complete article on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17256975)

[armored_diplomacy]

The urban legend was that Tatcher called Miterrand and said something like "give me the exocet codes or I´ll nuke Argentina", and he had no other option.
Also: France greatest UK´s ally ? I know of someone on this forum who will go nuts after reading that ! ;)
Interesting article, thanks

[wotsnext]

"Are the French duplicitous people? Of course they are” .... Sir John nott

I chuckled :)

[Rosbach]

In 1982, duringthe Falklands War, the (French build) Exocet became noted worldwide when Argentine NavyDassault-Breguet Super Étendard warplanes carrying the AM39 Air Launchedversion of Exocet caused irreparable damage and disabled the Royal Navydestroyer HMS Sheffield on 4 May 1982; and when the 15,000 ton merchant shipAtlantic Conveyor was struck by two Exocet anti-ship missiles on 25 May


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZu8bvxJs4

so, the diplomats were very busy

[sohaminator]

The urban legend was that Tatcher called Miterrand and said something like "give me the exocet codes or I´ll nuke Argentina", and he had no other option.
Also: France greatest UK´s ally ? I know of someone on this forum who will go nuts after reading that ! ;)
Interesting article, thanks

You are welcome!

[wotsnext]

In 1982, duringthe Falklands War, the (French build) Exocet became noted worldwide when Argentine NavyDassault-Breguet Super Étendard warplanes carrying the AM39 Air Launchedversion of Exocet caused irreparable damage and disabled the Royal Navydestroyer HMS Sheffield on 4 May 1982; and when the 15,000 ton merchant shipAtlantic Conveyor was struck by two Exocet anti-ship missiles on 25 May


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZu8bvxJs4

so, the diplomats were very busy

Sobering video, far too many good people were lost in the conflict ... on both sides.

[sohaminator]

In 1982, duringthe Falklands War, the (French build) Exocet became noted worldwide when Argentine NavyDassault-Breguet Super Étendard warplanes carrying the AM39 Air Launchedversion of Exocet caused irreparable damage and disabled the Royal Navydestroyer HMS Sheffield on 4 May 1982; and when the 15,000 ton merchant shipAtlantic Conveyor was struck by two Exocet anti-ship missiles on 25 May


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZu8bvxJs4

so, the diplomats were very busy





I couldn't turn on the sound because I am at work but is that an actual footage of HMS Sheffileld getting hit?

[Hollis]

"Are the French duplicitous people? Of course they are” .... Sir John nott

I chuckled :)



IIRC, the US was too. Argentina was not considered to be a enemy and many countries had friendly relationship with both of them. Kind of like when two friends get into a fight what do you do? You have past support and now you have a conflict. People probably knew how the conflict would end and probably did not want to marginalize Argentina. Part of the problem the cold war was still going on. Just looking at this one conflict by itself will not give a person the answers of why there was duplicitous actions among allies.

[JCR]

I couldn't turn on the sound because I am at work but is that an actual footage of HMS Sheffileld getting hit?

No, this is test footage.

[sohaminator]

No, this is test footage.

Thanks!
10 char

[Telmar]

Support to the UK was overwhelming. To say that France supported both sides seems rather ludicrous to me. The UK was given confidential information about Exocet's. France risked its reliablity as a weapon's supplier for solidarity with the UK. Not to mention that delivery of other Exocet missiles were blocked.

[happyslapper]

Not to mention that delivery of other Exocet missiles were blocked...


...by an MI6 operation.

[Telmar]

Not exactly. It's not like some french convoy was intercepted:


1982 - The Falklands Conflict
During the Falklands conflict, SIS operatives were instrumental in efforts to deny the Argentineans from receiving any more of the deadly French-made Exocet missiles, several of which had already sunk British warships. Posing as arms dealers, the SIS men either bought up all the missiles available on the open and black market or posed as sellers themselves, stringing the Argentines along on wild goose chases.

http://www.eliteukforces.info/mi6/

[LineDoggie]

France allowed the fleet to use West African ports?

reading the Falklands war then and now and remembering the general way the war went I always understood the Force sailed from the UK to Ascension island (which isnt French) and from there to the exclusion zone to commence operations? What need was there for West African Ports?

[sohaminator]

What kind of pressure could UK have applied on France if, hypothetically speaking, it had decided not to co-operate with UK ?

[happyslapper]

Not exactly. It's not like some french convoy was intercepted:


Nor did I remotely imply it was anything like that.

The French government were helpful, not unconditionally so, but understandably so.

The French arms industry were proven to be a law unto themselves, to the point that they were targeted directly by SIS.

[armored_diplomacy]

I understand that one or two TU-95´s took off from west Africa to take a look at the RN sailing down south.

[LineDoggie]

IIRC, the US was too. Argentina was not considered to be a enemy and many countries had friendly relationship with both of them. Kind of like when two friends get into a fight what do you do? You have past support and now you have a conflict. People probably knew how the conflict would end and probably did not want to marginalize Argentina. Part of the problem the cold war was still going on. Just looking at this one conflict by itself will not give a person the answers of why there was duplicitous actions among allies.Yet we did give over the then latest AIM-9L's to the force, repositioned recce satellites to give the UK up to date images of the enemy and for mapping, targeting and did offer them a US Aircraft Carrier for use. I havent found similar assets made available to the Argentines.

[Telmar]

Nor did I remotely imply it was anything like that.

The French government were helpful, not unconditionally so, but understandably so.

The French arms industry were proven to be a law unto themselves, to the point that they were targeted directly by SIS.

The arms industry had contracts they were not respecting, and it made them uneasy. This had already been the case in 67 with Israel being denied its legal purchases and orders. Imagine potential buyers thinking that every 15 years French arm firms stop honoring their contracts for political reasons, no matter how more or less justified.

[Tropical_ulcer]

Not exactly. It's not like some french convoy was intercepted:



http://www.eliteukforces.info/mi6/

black market? anti ship missiles are sold trough a "black" market?

[BogT]

From the article:

"It's bordering on an act of treason, or disobedience to an embargo," he says. "I mean, it's clear that if the head of state in France decrees an embargo, it's an embargo. Full point."

In these situations, you can not judge a country by the actions of a few men acting against the will of the official government.

I think you all can agree that if France would of delivered more Exocet's, the war would of looked different (no speculation on the victor, just an acknowledgement that it would of been much bloodier).

[Telmar]

black market? anti ship missiles are sold trough a "black" market?

I'm not the author. :)

[Chimera]

What kind of pressure could UK have applied on France if, hypothetically speaking, it had decided not to co-operate with UK ?

None... France decides by herself what is best for it's interests.

[Chimera]

France allowed the fleet to use West African ports?

reading the Falklands war then and now and remembering the general way the war went I always understood the Force sailed from the UK to Ascension island (which isnt French) and from there to the exclusion zone to commence operations? What need was there for West African Ports?

From my readings, Admiral Woodward, took reception of aircrafts & logistics supplies on the Ascension island that had not been loaded in time when the Task Force left the UK.

[dbamil]

I recommend 'One Hundred Days: The Memoirs of the Falklands Battle Group Commander'
http://www.amazon.com/One-Hundred-Days-Falklands-Bluejacket/dp/1557506523


Excellent source on the Falklands conflict, with focus on naval/air issues. If Argentina happened to have more than 10 Exocets (think they only had 4 or 5 in inventory), UK would've been in SERIOUS trouble. The admiral also recalls how they foolishly tried to recover a downed UK chopper (with live depth charges still attached) with a crane on one of the 2 carriers they had in the fleet. They got smart and stopped that attempt quickly. Had that somehow gone off UK would've had no choice but to withdraw.

[Flagg]

IIRC, the US was too. Argentina was not considered to be a enemy and many countries had friendly relationship with both of them. Kind of like when two friends get into a fight what do you do? You have past support and now you have a conflict. People probably knew how the conflict would end and probably did not want to marginalize Argentina. Part of the problem the cold war was still going on. Just looking at this one conflict by itself will not give a person the answers of why there was duplicitous actions among allies.

IIRC the US kind of sat on the fence openly(since the Argentine dictatorship was an ally opposing communist encrouchment), but quietly offered support....such as dipping into AIM9L warstock inventory....a VERY useful weapon for the UK to help gain local air superiority in a very tough environment to operate in against a very tough foe(some folks dismiss Argentine military, but at the time their pilots and airframes were pretty good).

I guess the most valid thing I can think of regarding this topic is that nations don't have allies, just competing interests.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

IIRC the US kind of sat on the fence openly(since the Argentine dictatorship was an ally opposing communist encrouchment), but quietly offered support....

John Lehman (US Secretary of the Navy at the time) in his book "On Seas of Glory" had the following to say about US involvement in the Falklands:

- Argentina was a valuable US ally, but Britain was a much more valuable US ally.
- Some US naval aviators had sympathy for the Argentines as the US and Argentine navies conducted joint training on many occasions (not many navies had fixed-wing carriers in 1982, they were two of the few who did).
- Assistance such as logistics and supplying Sidewinders was done at low levels through normal NATO channels previously agreed upon. The Secretary of Defense was informed, but his permission was not required for those transactions. The DoD decided to not explicitly ask his permission so as to avoid causing diplomatic problems.
- Oddly, Lehman asserts that the State Department and the White House were not aware of the extent of the assistance provided by the US Navy to the RN. For example, they were unaware that US tankers were refueling British ships at Ascension Island.
- When Lehman visited the UK, he found that members of the British government and Defense Ministry were sharply critical of what they perceived as a lack of UK support, but the RN officers were very thankful. He concluded that just as senior political leaders in the USA were not informed of US Navy aid to the RN, the RN likely didn't inform senior political leaders in the UK of aid they were receiving from the USN.
- The most important aid given to the UK by the USA was intelligence, since the USA was Argentina's #1 arms supplier we knew nearly everything about what weapons systems they had and where they were based.
- Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger offered the RN the services of a US aircraft carrier battle group if RN carriers were not up to the task of re-taking the Falklands. This of course would have been an irreparable break with Argentina as it would have brought the US directly into the war.

[Laworkerbee]

The arms industry had contracts they were not respecting, and it made them uneasy. This had already been the case in 67 with Israel being denied its legal purchases and orders. Imagine potential buyers thinking that every 15 years French arm firms stop honoring their contracts for political reasons, no matter how more or less justified.

Good point.

[Bidoul33t]

DGSE has confirmed that Dassault technical team were very close from treason since they were acting against direct orders of the Presidency (still wonder why Dassault gets contracts?).

They also said that on the other end, they had agents within the team that managed to kept them up updated to the plans of the Argentinian military, which in turn they no doubt shared with MI6.

Devious, certainly, but you can hardly say it was France against the UK.

For the diplomatic memos I'm sorry but nobody ever liked Tatcher. Not the US leaders not the EU leaders, not the brits, not her party, in the end not even her own deputy.

On the other hand it's true that the french state has a habit to look the other way when it comes to weapons deals and all the "bad" stuff that goes with it. But hey don't sell weapons in the first place, if you want to keep your morality.

[Laworkerbee]

For the diplomatic memos I'm sorry but nobody ever liked Tatcher. Not the US leaders not the EU leaders, not the brits, not her party, in the end not even her own deputy.

Speak for yourself, the Iron Lady was well respected in the US, hell I think Ronnie even wanted to bang her.

[Toddy1]

How is this any different to WWII? The French have always "hedged" their bets.

[mas-36]

It's been some time, perhaps a year or more, but in another thread regarding the Falklands War, I listed all the UK vessels that were hit/sunk/damaged by weapon systems of various origins. French, US, and even some Israeli systems.



How is this any different to WWII? The French have always "hedged" their bets.

Highly flawed comparison.

[Toddy1]

Highly flawed comparison.

I'm only flaming :)

[happyslapper]

It's been some time, perhaps a year or more, but in another thread regarding the Falklands War, I listed all the UK vessels that were hit/sunk/damaged by weapon systems of various origins. French, US, and even some Israeli systems.




Highly flawed comparison.

I believe some of their free-fall bombs were from British WW2 stocks too.

[JCR]

I believe some of their free-fall bombs were from British WW2 stocks too.

They used US LDGP (Mark xy) series almost exclusively.

[Corrupt]

They had two T42 destroyers, I know that much.

[psb1]

[QUOTE=Bidoul33t;6065694]For the diplomatic memos I'm sorry but nobody ever liked Tatcher. Not the US leaders not the EU leaders, not the brits, not her party, in the end not even her own deputy.QUOTE]

She got elected a lot for someone who was so disliked...I think it would be fairer to say she was a devisive personality than that the Brits or her party didn't like her. She is and was the political equivalent of Marmite, and possibly a little like Bush Junior in terms of people overseas just not getting her. Having said that, I believe there was a poll in the mid-1980s that showed she was considered the most bangable international figure for Italian men....

[armored_diplomacy]

IIRC the US kind of sat on the fence openly(since the Argentine dictatorship was an ally opposing communist encrouchment), but quietly offered support....such as dipping into AIM9L warstock inventory....a VERY useful weapon for the UK to help gain local air superiority in a very tough environment to operate in against a very tough foe(some folks dismiss Argentine military, but at the time their pilots and airframes were pretty good).

I guess the most valid thing I can think of regarding this topic is that nations don't have allies, just competing interests.

^^ Well said.


I believe some of their free-fall bombs were from British WW2 stocks too.

The free fall bombs used by the Camberras were British, IIRC

[marktigger]

Have read many of the comments. The French provided Dissimilar air combat training for the southbound task force. Amazing the ATO's had plans and instructions on the ordanance the french had sold and why was Roland not very effective?

Reading a book on HMS Antrim the bomb that wiped out her aft heads was made in Derby

[Anzu]

This is a breakdown of what struck what during the Falkland War (capitalisation means the ship was lost):

Argentina:


Ships
ARA Guerrico, slightly damaged by small arms fire from Royal Marines on South Georgia
ARA Alferez Sobral, moderatly damaged by three Sea Skua missiles from Lynx helicopters
ARA ISLA DE LOS ESTADOS, sunk by 4,5 inch gun fire from HMS Alacrity
ARA BAHÍA BUEN SUCESO, sunk by naval gunfire after being incapasitated by 30 mm ADEN fire while strafed by two Sea Harriers
ARA GENERAL BELGRANO, sunk by Mk 8 torpedos from HMS Conqueror
ARA SANTA FE, sunk by depth charges and AS-12 missiles from Lynx and Wasp helicopters
Formosa, damaged by mistake by an unexploded 1000 lb bomb from a group of Skyhawks
RIO CARACANA, sunk by Sea Skua missiles after being damaged by an attack of Sea Harriers
Narwal, damaged by 30 mm cannon fire and an unexploded 1000 lb bomb from a Sea Harrier


Airplanes, shot down
11 IAI Dagger, 9 by Sidewinder (Sea Harriers), 1 with a Sea Wolf from HMS Broadsword and 1 with Rapier (Royal Artillery)
10 A-4B Skyhawk, 3 by Sidewinder (Sea Harriers), 3 by Sea Wolf (HMS Brilliant), 1 by Sea Dart (HMS Exeter), 1 by AAA (HMS Fearless), 1 by 20 mm fire (HMS Antelope) and 1 by friendly fire
7 A-4C Skyhawk, 2 by Sidewinder (Sea Harriers), 3 by Sea Dart (HMS Coventry x2 and HMS Exeter), 1 Sea Cat (HMS Yarmouth), 1 combination of Sea Cat/Rapier/Blowpipe
3 IA 58 Pucará, 1 by 30 mm cannon (Sea Harrier), 1 by Stinger (SAS), 1 by small arms fire (2nd PARA)
3 A-4Q Skyhawk, 2 by Sidewinder (Sea Harriers), 1 by 30 mm cannon (Sea Harrier)
2 Mirage IIIEA, 1 by Sidewinder (Sea Harrier), 1 by friendly fire
2 B.Mk62 Canberra, 1 by Sidewinder (Sea Harrier), 1 by Sea Dart (HMS Cardiff)
1 C-130E Hercules, by 30 mm cannon (Sea Harrier)
1 Learjet 35A, by Sea Dart (HMS Exeter)
1 Aermacchi MB.339A, by Blowpipe (2nd Para)
4 Puma SA330L, 1 by 30 mm cannon fire (Sea Harrier), 1 by Sea Dart (HMS Coventry), 1 by Stinger (SAS), 1 by small arms fire on South Georgia



Britain:

Ships
HMS Alacrity, slightly damaged by a near miss from a Mk 82 bomb from a Dagger
HMS Arrow, sligthly damaged by cannon fire from Daggers
HMS Glamorgan, slightly damaged by a near misses from a Mk 82 bomb from a Dagger
HMS SHEFFIELD, sunk by an AM.39 Exocet from a Super Etendard
HMS Glasgow, moderatly damaged by an unexploded Mk 82 bomb from a Skyhawk
HMS Antrim, seriously damaged by an unexploded 1000 lb bomb
HMS Broadsword, slightly damaged by 30 mm cannon fire from a group of Daggers
HMS Argonaut, seriously damaged by 20 mm cannon fire, 105 mm rockets and two unexploded Mk 82 bombs from Pucaras and Skyhawks
HMS Brilliant, slightly damaged by 30 mm cannon fire from Daggers
HMS ARDENT, sunk by two hits, more than five unexploded and several near misses by Mk 82s and 1000 pounders
HMS ANTELOPE, sunk by two unexploded Mk 82's, one of which exploded during defusing
RFA Sir Galahad, damaged by an unexploded bomb from a Skyhawk
RFA Sir Lancelot, damaged by an unexploded bomb from a Skyhawk
RFA Sir Bedivere, slightly damaged by a glancing bomb from a Skyhawk
HMS Broadsword, damaged by an unexploded 1000 lb from a Skyhawk
HMS COVENTRY, sunk by three bomb hits by Skyhawks
ATLANTIC CONVEYOR, sunk by an AM.39 Exocet from a Super Etendard
British Wye, slightly damaged by a bouncing Mk 82 from a C-130 Hercules
HMS Plymouth, damaged by four unexploded Mk 82s from Daggers
RFA SIR GALAHAD, burned and sunk by bombs from Skyhawks
RFA Sir Tristram, badly damaged by bombs from Skyhawks
LCU F4, HMS Fearless, sunk by a Mk 82 from a Skyhawk
HMS Glamorgan, damaged by a landbased MM.38 Exocet

Airplanes, shot down
2 Sea Harrier FRS.1, 1 by 35 mm Oerlikon (GADA 601), 1 by Roland (GADA 601)
3 Westland Gazelle AH.1, 2 by ground fire, 1 by friendly fire Sea Dart (HMS Cardiff)
3 Harrier GR.3, 1 by Blowpipe (Compania de Comandos 601), 1 by 35 mm Oerlikon (GADA 601), 1 by small arms fire
1 Scout AH.1, 1 by machine gun fire (IA 58 Pucará, the only confirmed air-to-air kill by the Argentinians)

[Elbs]

They used US LDGP (Mark xy) series almost exclusively.

No, that would be the Navy, which used 500-lb Mark 82s with Snakeye kits. The FAA used British and Spanish 1000lb and 500lb bombs.